You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing.
You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with.
Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little alarms in your head that go off when you haven’t seen someone in a while, you can use automated reminders.
I have observed my spouse (who is not on social media) do this and she maintains friendships for decades this way. Nowadays she has regular zoom check ins, book clubs, and more, even with people who moved to the other coast. You do now have the tools for this. I have adopted it into my own life with good results.
Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live. We have a wealth of passive entertainment, often we have all consuming jobs or have more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did. We move to different cities for jobs, and even as suburban sprawl has grown, you’re on average probably further away from people who even live in the same city! You get from place to place in a private box on wheels, or alternatively in a really big box on wheels with a random assortment of people. You don’t see people at church, or market day, or whatever other rituals our ancestors had. On the positive side, you have more tools and leisure than ever before to arrange more voluntary meetings.
I love this but I think you'll be surprised at your success rate. Everyone is struggling with this, not just you. Right on the heels of covid we were debating whether to have a NYE party or just go to a friend's house for a low key thing. We were paralyzed a bit feeling like, why we weren't invited to other parties ourselves? Won't everyone already be busy doing other stuff? In the end my wife took the leap and invited a ton of neighbors and friends. Guess what?? Almost everyone showed up! Which means all those people were going to be sitting at home feeling bad and wondering the same thing. You just need to believe and get over it, people want to hang out. We've all just gotten out of the habit.
In my experience, the problem is not a low success rate, but the burnout from being the only person that invites people to do things. At a certain point you want to see some reciprocation to create community. It can definitely happen, but a lot of folks still fall back on the habits. You have to invite and then also start asking people who's gonna host the next one and get them on the hook, and then not burnout from being a constant organizer :)
1. Hyper-perfect social media / television setting "the best" expectations for an event.
2. Decreased knowledge of how to host a gathering. It's not rocket science, but throwing one the first time can seem daunting. And throwing one well does take skill. E.g. icebreakers, identifying and facilitating the right introductions by highlighting mutual interests, making sure wallflowers have a good time, defusing tensions, food, etc.
3. Decreased American tolerance for and ability to handle awkwardness, and there's always going to be some awkwardness in social interactions.
4. Decreased public/accessible American meeting places. There used to (< 2000) be a plethora of low-cost, broadly-accessible spaces that could serve as training wheels for events (handling food, furnishings, cleaning, etc). They've essentially all been privatized, commercialized, and optimized to turn seats -- think real coffee shops disappearing in favor of Starbucks.
- lower expectations (my own and everyone else's). I work out the bare minimum that would work for the event and do that. People need food. They don't need music.
- tell people how to contribute: "bring snacks and drinks", ask one specific person to bring ice. when people arrive I often give specific tasks: "can you find someone to help move the table and chairs into the other room", "can you sort out music"
- do it the same way every time so it's less mentally taxing
Ah, success through lowered expectations! This has been my mantra for the last 40 years, and it has worked surprisingly well. I started out with a New Year’s resolution to not intentionally consume significant quantities of human flesh, and have worked my way up from there.
It may seem ridiculous, but it’s a form of stoicism adjacent philosophy that presumes nominally more control over one’s circumstances, and it has had excellent outcomes for me. Ratchet forward but expect modest clicks and be delighted when something goes right or someone comes through.
Well you know, probably everyone is constantly swallowing some of their own dead skin cells. Nobody's perfect. So I'm not going to feel too guilty when I cheat and buy a human-balogna sandwich every now and then, especially if they're free range.
Yeah, the phrase "significant quantities of" is really throwing the whole comment for an unfortunate loop. Maybe "I choose not to steal any vehicles" or "I choose not to commit fraud" and work up from _there_ instead of somehow trying to faux-normalize cannibalism. Very strange indeed.
It’s surprisingly difficult to not eat a little human flesh. People nibble on loose skin and the insides of thier mouth a little, you end up swallowing blood, and there is often a tiny bit of human biomass in processed food.
Ergo the “significant” qualifier. Imagine the sense of defeat to fail in your New Year’s resolution to not resort to cannibalism by years end… so you have to be careful how you define your test case.
If I were a cannibal, it would have been an ambitious resolution, but the whole point was success through low expectations.
But fair enough, people tend to be touchy about people eating people, and rightly so. No way that ends well as a mainstream practice.
Well, I added that after realizing that it wasn’t uncommon to accidentally eat small parts of your mouth, fingertips, things like that in the course of a year, and I was not about to fail in my quest to reject cannibalism for the year. I mean, for me, that would have been a new low.
I'm assuming this is referencing "taking a pound of flesh" generally meaning to being cruel in demanding what you're owed (from Shakespeare Merchant of Venice). Presumably they're tired of unloading on people for not following thru or contributing. Doesn't seem like the best use here, particularly so indirectly.
Nope, I meant literally not consuming human flesh as food. After years of unsuccessful New Year’s resolutions, I decided to pick one I was sure I could stick to. Success through lowered expectations.
I mean, it is kind of a bit, in a way, but I really did announce to my social group my resolution, about 40 years ago, and I’ve been ratcheting it up gradually ever since. I have kept my public and official New Year’s resolutions for 37 years running. I’m up to “intentional and senseless acts of violence that end in the injury of innocents“.
You may scoff, but senselessness is highly contextually dependent and can easily apply to something that seemed rational under the fog of circumstance. Thats actually not that easy to promise without forsaking the option of violence altogether, which I am not at liberty to do, since I have a family to protect.
It’s a slow, intentional process. I don’t want to risk overreaching. Still, they are worthwhile goals. Low-hanging fruit is still fruit.
The useful thing to me has been to expect little from people and life in general, but a lot of myself. Then be delighted when things go as they should, or when people come through. It’s a contagious positivity masquerading as cynicism, or maybe the other way around, I’m not sure… but it allows me to focus on my role in things, my choices, my actions, and reactions to the external world. It is stoicism adjacent.
The New Year’s resolutions are mostly an advertising campaign for the overall philosophy, really, by promising people easy success in something that is often a struggle, and illuminating the fact that we choose our successes and failures by how we view external circumstances, not so much by the circumstances themselves.
I find that the more a group does things, the more everyone chills out. It's like the expectations come from a fear of being judged and from uncertainty. When everyone has information from the last ten events then you don't need to stress anymore, because everyone knows how this one will go and they've all judged one another already.
It helps to remember that you are competing with: no event.
If there are other parties happening and you're trying to make a better one, by all means, go all out. But mostly people in their 40s aren't going to many house events, so they're just happy to be somewhere with people. They don't care that you didn't decorate or sweep the floor or prepare an elaborate meal. You made soup and they're thrilled.
I'd also add that first-event nerves (on host and attendee sides) can be an uncertainty problem. No one wants to misunderstand the dress code, social code, etc. Once people have been together, there are now group norms that assuage that (aka "I know what's acceptable to wear and talk about").
Absolutely. I throw “open houses” with open hours. There will be some food and company and some booze. Probably music. But in the end everyone brings what they can and it rules.
Granted it’s still a lot of effort but it’s low key and I find people prefer that unless it gets enough momentum to become a “thing” haha
Agree with this approach. I've hosted a lot of "work adjacent" events over the years, with no real idea what I'm doing. I've always focused on the intent (why do I want to attend?) and a few crux details; everything else tends to work out or is just not that important. It seems to be one of the areas where "fake it until you make it" not only works but might be superior to ultra-planning.
Once you've got the gist down, try and find one thing that you can go a little overboard on; it makes it very memorable. Examples: I made a big pot of home-made chili once, and another time we did (what looked like) an extravagant nacho bar. It was both better and way cheaper than typical event food.
Definitely enlist an accomplice, but be aware you likely need to (appear to) be the mastermind.
> I've always focused on the intent (why do I want to attend?) and a few crux details; everything else tends to work out or is just not that important
This was my primary takeaway from some time spent doing higher-end catering front of house. You'd be amazed what absolute fuckups can occur on non-critical stuff... and no one even notices.
(Possibly the bride, but that's why we had dedicated bride handlers to appropriately message that kind of stuff)
I recently moved into a very upper class neighborhood (pacific heights) and enrolled my child in the neighborhood private school.
The social hosting skill I’ve observed and and able to do as well is extraordinarily high. People throw parties, know how to act, are cordial and polite and seem to reasonably enjoy each others company while also teaching their children the same.
This is how I remember mere middle class parents acting in the late 90s and early 2000s but my fellow millennials and z seem to be completely incapable of.
One huge aspect I’ve noticed is that it’s wildly expensive in time and money to host. An open cocktail night cost me nearly 3000 dollars to host. I can imagine this would not be common for Gen Z these days.
That seems to be a very narrow definition of a party. I have friends over for pizza and board games. We've had ice cream making parties. Cheese dinners.
I am a millennial and my parents did no events, since they both worked and had long commutes. I wonder when the middle class entertainment slowed down—I want to guess it’s when you have more two income households, that don’t earn enough to hire home help.
Minimum wages have not increased in decades. Cost of living has increased a lot meanwhile, and the rich vs poor divide has increased. So lower class and middle class are suffering, while upper class have become richer from their labors. In earlier generations, the middle class could work for some years and afford to buy a house (on mortgage). But these days, middle class cannot afford a house, they live in rented apartments. Hosting parties is the least of their priorities, when they are struggling with the monthly bills.
I don't think it's that, my parents weren't two income and never had friends or did events or social things and barely left the house.
My mom would constantly complain she used to be a social butterfly but having kids "ruined" that for her. Which never made sense to me, it's not like she ever interacted with us much.
Christmas dinner for my immediate family almost $500. That was pretty much dinner and our favorite appetizers but does not count the liquor and wine. This was just me, my ex, five kids, a daughter in law and grandchild. I can see getting to 3k pretty fast.
How did you spend $500 on dinner for 9 people? I hosted Christmas dinner for my family with about 10 adults and 10 kids, and it cost at most $200 divided between 5 families, alcohol included.
Dinner for twenty people at $200 is farcical in the US unless your family owns a farm or something. Going to need more details because I'm inclined to say that's bullshit.
Beer and liquor alone would blow past that figure.
No farm is needed. It's not that hard. I spent about: $25 on a chicken dish (chicken from Costco + ingredients), $15 for baked mac & cheese (ingredients from Meijer), $20 on ciders, $40 on 2 bottles of Cherry Republic wine. The other family members: $20 on raw vegetables and cheese platter; $20 on fruit; $10 potato dish; $10 vegetable dish; $15 on dessert; $15 on salad. Oh and $2 on juice boxes for the little kids (~4 from a juice box 40 pack from Costco). I'm estimating what the others spent, but that's what it would cost me to make the same dishes. That totals to $192.
If your version of hosting is "let's outsource it and just open the wallet", then, yes, sure, you can spend a lot of money. It ain't hosting, though. You failed the "what if I just replaced you with a bank account" test.
GP said 'open bar with 2 bartenders'. I.e. commercially priced drinks, and staff. Did you have those? If so, pro tip, next time just get a few cases of various drinks, plonk them on a table with a bunch of glasses (rented, if need be) and call it good. People can't drink soft drink for more than, say, 3 USD worth in an afternoon; and even if you served 12 years Glenfiddich to everyone including the children, enough of it to knock them all out, you still wouldn't have spend more than $1000.
So yeah still wondering what sort of party you threw. I mean, yeah it's easily possible to spend that much, but it's also possible to do it for much less and you don't even need to really try.
That honestly seems quite cheap for 'very upper class' where I imagine everyone's suited and booted, dressed up for the evening, possibly some live music, etc.
People surprised by Mr. $3000-cocktail party's expenses are forgetting about class and wealth differences.
Up to a point, expenses are elastic and proportionate to income. Across different incomes, things like "dinner" or "cocktail" mean (and cost) very different things, to the point that someone on either end of the scale doesn't even know what is on the other end. A very wealthy individual might not know about the $1.50 Costco dog, and a less wealthy individual won't know about the $10,000 bottle of cab sauv (okay I'm making that up, I don't know either, but you get the point).
If you have $100k you'll make do with that, if you have 10x more, most people will find ways to scale the expenses accordingly. If you have 1,000x more, that's just wasted cash that does nothing for society, but that's another discussion...
Also bog standard middle shelf cocktail liquor, wine, glassware, food, and additional (forks, knives, small plates, food prep) for 50 people is gonna cost 3k almost anywhere.
I was highlighting partially how it's just generally expensive to host the first time a large group.
I know the US is ludicrously expensive, but 3000 dollars for a cocktail party? Did you have a couple of hundred guests? The kind of party where you can lock in friendships, have meaningful conversations and personally play host tops out around 30 people. At those kind of numbers, you really don't need to hire a staff - you can provide canapés and make cocktails and or have a friend so at very reasonable cost. Source - I had hundreds of (often fairly raucous parties) at my old apartment. Alas I no longer live in a basement so my entertaining options are much more limited.
I was not looking to 'lock in life long friendships.' I was hosting a cocktail party as a favor for our school at my home and was obligated to ensure the overall experience was somewhat nicer than 'a wild party at an apartment' as fun as that is as well. These are somewhat normal things as part of a knit-community adult life. You have distant people come as well as close friends and open your home. That is ... hosting.
Partly what I was trying to point out is how 'adult life' gets complicated and expensive and most people are understandably just opting out. But at the same time, whats going out with it is just basic manners and social habits -- which is unfortunate.
My point stands - if anything a cocktail party is potentially less expensive to host since you know in advance numbers and preferences.
> These are somewhat normal things as part of a knit-community adult life.
As something of an adult myself (I'm 46), I'm well aware of how community functions. I'm also aware of the 'keeping up with the jones' nature of wealth and how corrosive that is to community - being entirely founded on the selective and exclusive nature of spending.
My contention stands, there is no need whatsoever to spend thousands on a cocktail party. One doesn't need to 'opt out' of social life. It's perfectly possible to serve cocktails yourself, to buy 'off the shelf' brands rather than expensive whiskey etc. It's perfectly possible to prepare your own food, or work with a chef who organises 'super club' style catering, which does not cost thousands.
It's a choice to live this way, not a fate. And doubtless it affords status among other high worth individuals - just as it dooms you to a life of fruitless comparison and ostentatiousness.
This can be said of literally anyone living in the first
World.
I find it deeply laughable anyone would stand on a soap box who lives in a modern first world environment and lecture like this while not seeing the irony that they do it themselves at their level as well.
Please. Stop. Look around. And maybe visit a place where you see how the other half of the planet lives. Likely your world is wildly ostentatious and unnecessary comparatively.
The plank in your eye before your neighbor and all that.
I mean I've spent a couple hundo at Costco buying booze and food and paper supplies for a party I hosted and THAT was flabbergasting. How the fuck do spend three grand on cocktails? Is it like all top shelf liquor or something?
It's a level of excess whose loss is probably a net positive for society. I would argue that there are very, very few cases where such a level is justified.
> 3. Decreased American tolerance for and ability to handle awkwardness, and there's always going to be some awkwardness in social interactions.
I wonder how much of this is due to our ever increasing sense of obligation to be "performing" all the time. Maybe increased by the perpetual presence of social media and the habits and mindset that both creating and consuming for it creates.
I thought that originally, but I actually think it's more experiential/exposure-side.
Hypothesis: modern society (especially apps) has decreased the amount of realtime, face-to-face social interactions at all stages of life, which has eventually manifested into a decreased average (there are still some social people!) capability to deal with social awkwardness. And consequently less comfort/appetite for putting oneself in situations where it might happen.
I don’t think it’s this. I’ve lived in NYC recently and people there don’t have tolerance for shit behaviors either and you’re surrounded by people all the time.
It’s due to people having higher standards than before and being bifurcated on every issue. There is deep polarization and tribalism within American culture.
Everyone consumes different content and there’s very little homogeneity within our culture. Like… Americans are more diverse than ever in terms of their thoughts and behaviors. They genuinely have little in common compared to many other cultures.
I'll buy that, especially in NYC-like urban environments where frequency of exposure is definitely not the issue. Suburbs and rural may be different.
Part of the increased diversity is unavoidable due to technological changes eroding previous touchpoints. E.g. limited broadcast TV becoming cable becoming streaming.
But there does seem to be an increasing dearth of the logical tonic: discussion-facilitating diverse spaces. Places where people of different opinions can mingle, there are strong social norms around mutually productive conversation (and enforcement to discourage / weed out poison apples?), and that are open to new people.
> Hyper-perfect social media / television setting "the best" expectations for an event.
My approach around this is suggesting the idea to people up front and then throwing everyone into a WhatsApp chat and laying down the plan. Anyone who can't join gets removed/leaves. No one expects a whatsapp group to be a refined VIP experience. It's just people getting together and sharing an experience.
Having moved countries and needing to start up a new friend group, things like Meetup or Facebook groups help a lot. There are _many_ people out there who are looking to meet people.
For throwing a party, my general rule of thumb is expect 50% of people to turn up.
It used to be predominantly women who did it. It was part of being a housewife. Joy of Cooking even has an entire chapter dedicated to hosting a dinner party. But now women work for billionaires too. Nobody has time to work for themselves.
This. My wife and I built our social life when we moved countries, and we had a group of friends that we'd meet every week or two. But only when we invited them. No-one else in the group ever organised anything. It got really tiring. We could not get anyone else to organise a meet, they always had reasons why they couldn't organise one (but could turn up to it fine). We tried a bunch of things, but nothing worked - if we didn't organise it, it didn't happen. We ended up moving away and the whole social group collapsed and stopped meeting.
I think some people are just the center of gravity, and that particular friend circle revolves around them. Before COVID, we had a friend group that would hang out fairly regularly. Once I left (for a job, not fleeing the city), none of them hung out without me. Everyone was friendly with each other, but everyone also had their own lives going on with their own friends and other circles. While I was the glue for that circle, it wasn't like everyone just stayed at home having pity parties when I wasn't around.
My anecdote might have limited relevance here, but I think it's something worth considering.
Do any of those friends organise anything for any of their other friend groups?
I get the feeling that some people organise, while most people don't. I haven't seen the situation where a person organises stuff for one group, but not for another group. It always tends to be the same people doing the organising for all their friends. At least that's what I've observed, I'd welcome any other observations.
That attitude, the some people are leeches, to me is part of the problem. If you go in with the expectation that others owe you something or they're bad people, you're only going to be going down the path of not doing it.
You'll need to get over the idea of this being a shared load.
Every community has one or two people that are "the engine" and constantly keep people reconnecting. Has nothing to do with social media, or Covid - it's always been the case as far as I can think back (and that's the early 80's)
Yes, you can push and prod people to occasionally host, but that's also a ton of work.
We've noticed this in our neighborhood. Once a year we host a few families before going out trick or treating with our kids. We buy a bunch of pizza so everyone can eat and don't ask for the other families to kick in.
We were hoping the other families would reciprocate, and maybe invite us to some of their gatherings (especially two families who hang out together quite a bit.) So far it hasn't happened at all, they just receive our graciousness and move on immediately.
Potluck parties help. Then they, generally, at least partly participated. Some people will just bring soda or chips or beer but that's still better than 0.
So you set something up to weasel your way into other "families" friendships by doing a specific thing and then judging their response/non-response? Like A/B testing humans.
Perhaps some people can sense this stuff subconsciously. Relationships should build naturally.
As somebody who does host and doesn’t get a ton of reciprocity, the problem isn’t burn out (because I love doing it). The problem is second guessing whether this is something the group enjoys and whether they are just humoring me.
I also love hosting - but what I’m really trying to do is have particles collide and form bonds outside the larger events. Even smaller scale gatherings, game nights, or hell even a couples dinner invite would be a nice change of pace.
The lack of reciprocation is a tough one. I think it also helps sometimes to understand that not everyone is good at being the mother goose or the facilitator, especially if someone else is already good at doing it, and it's not because they lack interest or don't care.
I have some friends who very easily lose themselves in their work and the stress around it and if I wasn't the one checking in and basically pulling them away, I'd miss out on what are easily my favourite days out and it has no impact on how much we enjoy each other's company. Maybe one day it changes but until then I'm there for them.
That said, there are of course times where it's better to just let go. But those people were probably never that important to you in the first place.
>In my experience, the problem is not a low success rate, but the burnout from being the only person that invites people to do things.
This is what mostly happened with me, I just got burned out from always having to be the one to organise everything or nothing would happen, which is what ended up happening after I stopped, we just stopped meeting up and eventually grew completely apart.
Now, I'm in a completely different country and I don't even have anyone's contacts anymore. But that's been life for me, people come and people go, never to stay.
I've accepted it by now, it can still hurt from time to time, but it is what it is, one should not force their will onto others, I believe.
It’s easy to find reasons to talk yourself out of action. Maybe you’ll get burned out, maybe you won’t. But if you never try you’ll never know. And you’ll definitely miss out on something special
try and build "the community" outside of the effort of one or a few people. This is hard. My example: we've built some quality dirt jumps for bike riders, and while there's a core group of ~10 people, you don't need all - or any - of them to come out for success. The location is the host and either a regularly scheduled or casual event keeps the community going. If people stop, the community will die and we'll move on.
I sometimes wonder about this, I have a friend who does most of the organizing for parties or whatever. My sense is that there are a few different kinds of people, among those are people who, if they didn't organize parties, there wouldn't really be much of a platform for hanging out for them and others like them, while others are completely isolated, don't organize and don't have any other third space, and others yet have many smaller interactions from many other parts of life that don't necessitate a larger meetup necessarily. If you're an "organizer" type, my guess is that the people you'd hope reciprocate fall into the latter camp; they're happy to show up and have a good time, but they probably have a bunch of other things to explore that for some reason they haven't felt you'd be into... or a bunch of other possible reasons. Asking them to host a party is asking them to fabricate a social setting from thin air, but maybe they just organically don't find that to be something they need to do.
For me, I'll host something for a small group if I get some inspiration, but on a week to week basis I'm often in extremely social third-spaces, supplemented by larger parties (probably bi-weekly). My effort is often best spent meeting people for deliberate, intimate, outdoor sports adventures or coffee hangouts, but the same person I know who tends to organize larger parties doesn't really feel like someone who'd be into these; they can't really hold a conversation 1 on 1 for very long, and they're not super curious or vulnerable or athletic in the way that's necessary to engage in those as much. He's a regimented, scheduled, impatient, person. They often need a sort of fabricated social vehicle (also likes to decorate and host), whereas I get nearly all of my socializing from incidentally being in social space.
I think it's fine to be either of course. It's ok that my organizer friend doesn't like heights, and so I won't invite him to climb mountains, he likes hosting parties, so I try to attend as many as I can.
Note that I don't mean the non-organizer (me) is just passively socializing, it's just that they have different catalysts built into the things they do that extend into socializing easily. I'm DMing 1 or 2 friends, multiple times a week, to do something we both enjoy or just chat while walking around the city. While parties and hosted things are neat, they're just not very good platforms for depth.
Just as well, I do try and be inviting to everyone who'd like to come out and do other things, in general it's important to reciprocate, but I'm not hosting a party just because someone else did.
Not fun part is that the longer you stay at your home comfort zone the bigger social anxiety grows.
Other annoying parts are if you fight off anxiety and do go out you most likely will run into minor inconvenience like some Karen honking on you or making a fuss in front of you when you’re waiting in line. Minor inconvenience like that refuels social anxiety.
Eh, I don't think EVERYONE is struggling with this. I am an introvert, and have no desire to go out and do more things with friends. I get enough socialization with my wife and kids, and don't really have the desire to do more things.
I used to think that way. Then, divorce, custody battle and the dark abyss. No home, nobody to talk to; just silence, loneliness, general apathy of the world around you. It's the trap of the middle-aged man: to focus on work, invest in family, and hope these things will be a constant because you are doing the right thing. We don't have enough emotional bonds, don't know how to create them, and if the wife leaves and takes the kids, there's nothing left.
I'd use this as an opportunity to do something exciting with your life (if finances permit). Go live in Asia and do the nomad thing, if you're lonely there are a ton of Filipinas who want nothing more than to be a good wife and provide for their family. Try to start a business, take up some kind of art and make an honest effort to get GOOD at it, etc.
Same lack of desire to go out and I don't even have wife and kids, or even friends for that matter; just one friend I see once a week. Whatever the appeal/reward of socialization is for most people, I don't get it.
Sure, but this only works as advice for people who you can talk to, such as me. I'm not trying to solve my loneliness, my own personal goal is to find ways to reach out to people who sit alone all day, and are dying from loneliness, and the only way to reach them is to catch them as they walk on the way to the grocery store, and hold up a sign that they can read. The question in my mind is, what next? So far, I've only been doing surveys[1], but I'm looking for the next step.
Piggybacking off your suggestion, I like the idea of holding up a sign advertising a free activity that anyone can join, located in a very public space, with zero committment, so they can both show up and walk away at the drop of a hat. Whether it's an ad hoc organized chess tournament, or D&D game, or "one word story" or literally anything. That will have to wait until nicer weather, though, to avoid having to rent a place.
This isn’t quite true. I’m in the last stages of organizing a record club (basically a book club with a much lower commitment) and I started by talking to a small handful of close friends who I knew were music nerds because I am picky and shy by nature and the most annoying thing is how many people got wind of it and wanted in. People are starving for these sorts of things. Try. Fail. It’s ok, it’s just going to take a couple of us to make a few hits and we can start to sew some of the fabric of society back together.
You can reach people you otherwise might not have by inviting your neighbours around for coffee and cake one weekend morning? Even if you have nothing in common it starts building a community of people who live in proximity to one another.
You have a very interesting website. Do you feel lonely? Your website portraits you as a sad person who has suffered a lot. I wouldn't say you are insignificant at all :) You do certain seem to be quite significant probably to more people than you realize even if it isn't to all the people you wish to be significant to.
I feel the best way to do what you seem to want to do is by meeting people where they are. No matter what you do, the last part of your mission relies on the lonely person. They have to choose to connect to others and then they have to do it. Arguably, that's the hardest part.
Your instructions to comment on your blog are incredible, come talk to you face to face. If I didn't live on the other side of the country it would be meaningful to tell you what it meant to me in person.
Unfortunately a lot of these require either an existing network or high stakes interaction (sending invites, accepting invites etc). They're good advise, but can be hard to execute on for most people.
If we want to solve this at the society or community level, there needs to be more opportunities for low stakes interaction. Places that people can passively gather around a communal activity. I'm reminded of the ladies dancing together in public squares / parks in China. They're usually a group, but mostly anyone can join in. You can just follow along and interact as much as you'd like. If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay and chat, stay and chat.
Downtown San Mateo for example has the potential for this. It's already a closed off street where people go. But today there aren't group activities there that encourages passive interaction, people are still in silos. Perhaps if there were some games / puzzles, chalk boards, townhall type of table setup, that'll encourage passive interaction.
"you just have to put yourself out there" is lazy thinking, you are ignoring all the underlying psychological and physilogical factors preventing people from doing it.
Making the society more welcoming works. It worked wonders for me. I moved from a country where things like meetup events are not common and groups are less welcoming to strangers. Having moved to UK, meetup events allowed me to go out and socialise because I could sign up without speaking to anyone, and go there and participate in the activity, without the pressure to socialise, it was an optional benefit. These settings allowed me to socialise with strangers that I could never do before.
I know in the US we value individualism responsibility. But the reality is many things are encouraged / discouraged, made easier / harder collectively.
Of course if you never go out of your house, you're not going to have many social interactions. But your environment and the culture you live in makes a difference too. You can quit smoking yourself clearly, but the collective push to discourage smoking has done a lot to reduce the overall use of cigarettes.
When I was young, I solved loneliness very well by volunteering for political campaigns. Until the last one (I'm too old to care now), I worked every campaign in my life and at various times had a lot of good friends as a result.
My town does an annual party. I heard about it and showed up to volunteer. I did that for a few years. It wasn't as productive in producing friends (I'm in a different location than before that is more insular) but even so, it got me out of the house and, for the few months before the event, was pretty much fun.
These kinds of things are often available if you just look around. It doesn't require knowing people ahead of time and is low stakes. If nobody is friendly, it doesn't matter.
"Be the organizer" assumes a certain baseline of energy, confidence, and emotional resilience. For people who are already lonely, depressed, neurodivergent, burned out, or socially anxious, that constant reaching out + rejection tax can be genuinely exhausting, not just uncomfortable
As someone that fits some of the above categories, I think you really have to step back and repeatedly tell yourself "get over it". Its the same mentality to "I dont want to go to the gym today". You immediately feel better as soon as youve finished it and wonder why you always drag your feet before.
I'm guessing your issues were not so severe if "keep trying things forever and telling yourself to get over it" is the epiphany which helped you, clinical depression doesn't go away that easily.
Late reply but in case you come back to this, the thing that helped me out of clinical depression was 150mg of bupropion twice a day for a few years, then I was able to get out of bed reliably enough take up cycling.
If you feel you're clinically depressed get diagnosed and treated in a clinical setting ASAP. Diseases need treatment.
My winning alternative is not to go online and be the mental health equivalent of that survivorship bias fighter plane image. "Just tell yourself to get over it" is advice that can only possibly work because you didn't actually need it.
>, I think you really have to step back and repeatedly tell yourself "get over it". Its the same mentality to "I dont want to go to the gym today". You immediately feel better as soon as youve finished it
No, no, no, it's absolutely not the same, OMG, nothing alike. "I dont want to go to the gym today" isn't the kind of profound, all encompassing, and existential dread that attempting to organize a social event is. Especially when you push yourself to organize and it doesn't work out, which has happened to me before. Those feelings are legitimately nothing alike, the fact someone is comparing the two is wild to me.
I do still need to try to overcome it and get over it, but it's not even as remotely as simple as you claim.
Even if there were state programs that established and ran these sorts of events and created low-friction ways of interacting with people, people could still say "well that assumes a certain baseline of energy."
It is true that somebody who is in the midst of extreme depression and can't get out of bed is probably not going to be able to set up a local dnd game. It is also the case that the large majority of people are absolutely capable of doing this sort of thing.
If I may suggest to start small, it doesn't have to be a group of people playing football. I personally like to just meet 1 or 2 people to which I can have interaction with all of them.
If I may I made an attempt to crack at this very problem with Tatapp (tatapp.astekita.com). Any feedback is very much appreciated.
I agree. I also don't think forcing yourself to be an organizer is necessarily a solution to fixing the loneliness, as it also just requires a certain passion. In my experience, some people love organizing things, others just really hate it. I am in that last camp, after having organized quite a lot. For me, simply participating with things that are organized by others has done me much more good. Of course, that still requires being in a state of mind where you are able to take initiative with signing up for such group activities.
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
> You have to do it on a regular cadence.
I've posted about this before, but my wife and I sort of accidentally started a trivia team that's been going strong for like four years. Nearly every single week for four years, we get together with some subset of about 15 people. Most the regulars are there most days.
I also started cold plunging and have been doing it with the same regularity as trivia -- nearly every single week. It's a much smaller group, but it is absolutely part of our routine. Rain or shine.
Both these things have given several of us some really great friend time that makes that loneliness fade away.
Personal solutions to systemic problems are not solutions. Yours is great advice for the few people able to take it to heart, find the motivation, and succeed, but you cannot solve societal problems at any kind of scale this way.
Just like you aren’t in traffic, you are traffic, you aren’t part of the society, you are society.
Every idea like “let’s have icecream socials at..” started as one person’s pipe dream which they then acted on and executed. No one is coming to rescue us. There’s no secret hand guiding humankind.
You definitely can’t solve loneliness for society but you can solve loneliness for your immediate circle by organising activities and that’s already a huge improvement.
In contrast, sitting back and saying this needs to be solved at a higher level does nothing at all.
the parent's comment was what I have been thinking about though... The advice to not be the traffic is kind of just like saying "just try harder"...
I am thinking of a chain of causality like:
People do not plan things, or they flake on events because they're tired. Theyre tired because theyre working too many hours and are obese. They work/obese because because they consume too much. They consume too much because we're a spiritually empty society. (Just to put up an initial draft hypothesis).
I'm thinking if we can solve some of the nodes closer to the root we can have a higher impact than just burning ourselves out trying to deal with the leaf nodes.
I was thinking consume more like conspicuous consumption for clout. There's been lifestyle inflation, i believe due to social media, compared to times when society was more social. I'm running of general feelings here though, not specific datasets.
Somethings that come to mind: Expensive smart phones, fast fashion clothing spend, travel, tattoos, car feature creep leading to price increases and more loans taken, sq foot per person in housing, Food as an identity statement (more foreign/imported/, more protein are two trends I believe are true).
Agree but the flaking culture is too normalized right now, at least in the west. Nothing is more demotivating than majority of people just not coming and doing it in such a non-chalant manner. It's really not fun to put all that work and people don't take the invitation seriously to the point where they jusut ghost the event.
This annoys me: at least say you're not going to make it. I don't expect you always to be free or even want to attend, but how hard is it to say 'Thanks but I can't come.'?
I've been trying to do this. One thing I've observed is trying to arrange people to play board games is quite difficult because you can't predict how many people will show up. People get sick, misread the times, etc. And a lot of games are very sensitive to player count, so having 2 people too few or too many has the ability to make the game somewhat unplayable or risk people sitting out watching.
Easier to just host a party or meetup where you can over invite and if some people don't show up it's no issue.
A friend of mine has this problem with their D&D campaigns. He makes huge efforts and there’s always one or two people who flake or don’t have the same commitment level. He’s gotten quite angry and sad about it.
He is trying something different now, to make a hybrid campaign where there’s a lot of one-shots in a broader story arc. It’s structured like missions in an ongoing struggle.
Maybe if you want to do board games,
we need more games that scale up and down easily. I’m not a board game person, IDK.
Tell your friend to look up the Western Reaches style of play. One of the core ideas is that you begin and end each session in a safe zone so that you can have a rotating pool of adventurers. You can tuck in some rules for having mercenaries for when you have fewer than the encounters are balanced for and you’re off to the races.
It does reduce the possibility of highly on rails campaigns and instead requires more of a sandbox plan with one page dungeons and stuff. Even so, it seems made to solve this exact problem.
> Tell your friend to look up the Western Reaches style of play.
The playstyle is called West Marches.
IMHO, the important bit of this style isn't so much the player pool flexibility (tho it does help that case), but the inversion of who's driving the story. The DM prepares the world, but it's up to the players to organize their excursions outside of the safe zone, for their own reasons. This forces more involvement of the players in the story, instead of the more passive campaign on rails you mentioned.
So in the GP's case of flaky low-effort players, West Marches style may not help because it puts more burden on the players in addition to just showing up and having everything presented to them.
That said, if the group can manage to do it, player engagement should be higher, and the DM suffers less disappointment because they're only prepping a session of content based on the players' plans for that session, not a long storyline that requires more alignment and adherence.
West Marches doesn't have to be totally on the fly for the DM. The players organize and define their agenda prior to the play session, so the DM should have a little time to prepare. The excursion is planned to visit a specific area of the map, so the DM only needs flesh out a bit of the world at a time.
D&D has too many rules. I invented a really light weight set of rules so that we can engage in more "role play" as opposed to RTS. It's more fun for the casual game and you don't waste so much time between turns.
Try anything that's described as "Powered by the Apocalypse". It's an excellent foundation for rules-light role-playing games.
Urban Shadows was my intro into this style of play. Monster of the Week is also very good. But there a huge number of great games out there that are not D&D (which is really a bit clunky and overly complex, IMO).
You just have to make up your own - unless you want to!
Our D&D group meets once to twice a month and is about seven or eight people. That's large enough that at most two of us can not show up and we're still enough to play and enjoy ourselves. The DM writes session recaps and posts them the day before the next session. The overhead here is minimized by his taking notes during the session. This has kept our group going for something like three or four years now!
The one thing about D&D is that I know almost everyone there exclusively through the campaign, and 90% of my interactions with them have been in character, which means I actually know very little about their personal lives. We're getting better with this with non-D&D hangs though.
Yes, but it's frustrating that it's on the organizer to give everyone both something fun to do and the flexibility to flake. It feels like such thankless work to work so hard and get so little commitment back.
I have a fairly reliable friend group, but sometimes stuff just happens. One game we had someone get sick, and another person's car broke down. That's just life and it happens, but the game was very disrupted. Would be easier to pick activities that are more flexible to the number of people participating.
It is possible I would assume. I just don't have that many games or enough table space to be super flexible. I'm thinking board games work easiest when the people are already in the same space and need something to do, rather than trying to arrange them to come just for the game.
Space base works well for this for up to eight people with the expansion. I have a friend with a very tiny apartment we have done that in, and while others are buying cards you can enjoy conversation. I used to host a lot when I was able to keep a dedicated hosting area at the one house, but recently not as much unless it's outdoors mainly. If you have a grill you can let people know to bring what they want to grill, and popcorn and some seasoning makes an affordable snack, and if you project a movie somewhere people can disconnect if needed. But yes, I usually use my social energy with family in the area now.
With the rules variant that you can play out-of-order if you add an identical card to the one that's on top of the stack, it disrupts the otherwise pretty linear play, and easily scales up to 10ish persons and still be fun.
> One thing I've observed is trying to arrange people to play board games is quite difficult because you can't predict how many people will show up. People get sick, misread the times, etc. And a lot of games are very sensitive to player count, so having 2 people too few or too many has the ability to make the game somewhat unplayable
You're trying to arrange the wrong type of event. A board game group plays a variable number of games simultaneously to accommodate the number of players each game can support. A board game group does not try to fit everyone into the same game as a matter of principle.
I have a group of people who play boardgames in a turned based fashion over at boardgamearena. This solves the flakiness issue. The lack of direct social interaction is then made slightly better by having a chat channel where we chat about ongoing games.
We've been having ongoing games (around 2 going at every one time) since about a year now I think.
Still do in person games as well, but this at least keeps that group going through in-perwon drought periods.
As someone who has tried to host events for specific board games, I completely agree. Most games I play are best with 3 to 4, and I will flat out refuse to play them with more than 5.
Now, I host meetups which typically get 8-15 people and multiple games, so an unpredictable player count is not an issue.
I've had success with this! It required a little bit of an existing network. I always wanted to be in a band but never could, I was never invited. But I went to an open mic for a couple months, and just decided to .. start one. Invited people over to jam sometimes. Turned into a regular event, then turned into a band.
I've repeated this a couple times. Yeah, usually I have to do the bulk of the inviting and organizing. And yeah, it's uncomfortable being the "leader". But I know everyone enjoyed the time together. Those that didn't just never came and that's fine too.
Join an organization. For example every city has Toastmasters, most have several. Easy to find, and it is an excellent place to meet people. And you'll learn how to convert social anxiety into social adrenaline.
Do you have a faith? Actually go to church instead of just believing. Are you non-religious? Several strands of Buddhism can be followed as philosophy and practice without adopting any mystical beliefs. Vipassanā (also called Insight) and Zen are a couple of examples.
And how do you turn random people that you met into life-long friends? You can reduce the time investment by a lot. If you call someone on a spaced repetition schedule, you can make them internalize that the door is always open. Without requiring a large commitment on either side. And a spaced repetition schedule is easy to achieve - just think Fibonacci. I'll call you back in 3 days. Then 5. Then 8 (round down to a week). And so on. It feels like a lot of calls at the start. But it slows down fast. Over a lifetime, it is only around 20 calls.
Play around with it. If it was someone you met and hung out with on a cruise, maybe start at a week for that first call. Either way, you're reinforcing the idea that we like to talk, and the door is always open.
You can use a similar idea to keep people who move on from your workplace in your life. People always mean to stay in contact. Then don't. But with structured reinforcement, you can actually make it work.
A spaced repetition schedule for speedrunning the friend-making process?
If it works, it works, I guess. And in a thread about loneliness, that’s all that matters. But it seems a bit calculated rather than organic, which is what we think of as the platonic ideal of friendmaking.
Think of it as an intentional way to turn a spark of connection into long-lasting coals. It can't work without that initial desire on both sides to make it work.
Wow. This is so true. My social life has improved hugely in the last couple of years and it's almost all because of this.
I host board game days.
I organise a pub trivia team.
I organise singalong nights.
I host occasional parties. Soup nights. Zucchini parties.
I set up a lot of group chats and keep them alive.
I organise to visit my family.
For a lot of events, I get a 5-10% attendance rate compared to the number of people I invite. People are busy. It just means I need to keep expanding the circles of people to invite. If people don't want to come it eventually becomes clear and I quietly remove them from the lists. But mostly I hear the opposite - they really want to keep being invited, even if they don't make it often.
So what you're saying is you basically have to give. This is what I find real life is like. Unless I'm giving something, like a ride to some interesting place, people are not interested in me at all. They just want to get something from me, that's it.
A lot of people are more comfortable with a shared experience objective. This provides a means to do something and a reason behind meeting.
If you are always in the mindset that you are giving and everyone else is taking that can really impact how you perceive everyone. And 9/10 most people over estimate how much they give and under-estimate how much they take.
There is also something powerful with "I _get_ to take my new friend to a place I find cool" rather than "My new friend is using me to go to my cool place". Changing the way you internally frame things drastically helps.
I know it sounds absolutely stupid hogwash but it helps.
It's not a "mindset" to notice that people only reach out to you when they want something. You notice that they reach out to others who aren't you and don't include you, They reserve you for favors only. If you find out about something and ask to be included they'll say "sure," but it doesn't feel great to feel like you have to beg.
That's not a "mindset," dude.
It's really hard to try to make that relationship more reciprocal and it really sours you on trying to create other relationships. You wonder if there's something inherently wrong with you. If your lot in life is always to be an outsider.
There's also the second type of person one can get caught up with, the narcissist. They think that the world owes them everything and they will take, take, take and never give anything. This one is a typically bit easier to deal with and do a little less damage to your mental health. Though they can sometimes be charismatic, so difficult to spot early if you aren't used to dealing with that type of person. The charismatic ones don't demand anything, especially not right off the bad. They make you feel like it's your choice to do them favors.
It's easier to notice if you have exceptionally "wanty" people in your life. But can happen regardless.
Some relationships are dysfunctional. Some people are toxic. That's not a "mindset" problem. It's clear you're not familiar with dysfunctional relationships, which is great, so don't accuse others of having the wrong "mindset" when you don't know.
I've felt this way for a while, that the give/take in my relationships is imbalanced, and that I'm not receiving what I need.
But then I tried to imagine receiving what I thought I wanted, and whether it would truly make me happy. The answer is almost always no.
The few times the answer was yes, I traced down why within myself, and found that, honestly, I just wanted people to care about me.
Then I realized that they have already shown ways that they care about me, just not the ways I was wanting or expecting, or found as meaningful.
Or I realized that I was not believing that they cared about me, and that it was merely a performance, but that I had no good reason for doubting it, and was just being overly demanding of a sign. (Not always, though. With some people, there were clear signs they were faking it.)
Or I realized that there was no context in which those things could come up, so the genuine love from the other person might actually be present, it's just that there's no opportunity for them to express it, until a scenario is created where it makes sense for them to do so in some way.
And other similar thought experiments within myself. This has led to me (a) realizing that a good number of people do actually care about me to a significant and meaningful degree, and (b) I need to take the initiative more often to create situations where they can express it, even if it's something as simple as asking them to have coffee with me.
I think of this all the time. What is the relationship between value and relationships? And what is the value of such a relationship?
It seems to me that every relationship is value oriented, even ones we consider absolutely perfect and pure.
Take for instance a mother's undying love for her newborn. She values that newborn for a few reasons. She sees herself in it. She sees pure innocence in it that needs to be protected and nourished. She sees all the potential good (i.e. value) this little child may one day bring to society. She sees her own personal fulfillment in the act of bringing this to fruition, which brings her joy, even amidst all the sacrifices she may have to make for it.
Is any of this selfish or bad? Does it in any way devalue her relationship to the child?
Extrapolate this to other relationships. A perfect friendship, where two people meet together regularly to find out about each other's recent activities, and encourage each other in life's difficulties, and foster one another's growth and good. They each care about the other, ask how the other is doing and what they're thinking and feeling, offer each other consolation, comfort, and help in times of distress or difficulty. Each gets this from the other, mutually beneficial. One may offer it exclusively at one time, the other reciprocates later, not out of obligation, but gratitude and personal desire.
Many years ago I read the classic 'How to win friends and influence people' and I was just hit with, according to that book, how little people actually care about other people and how fundamentally lonely our existence is.
I don't think that was the message the book was trying to give, but that's what I got out of it.
So yes, people will wonder, subconsciously or not, what's in it for them. If you can give status or if you are naturally entertaining, this might all seem a little less obvious.
But that's the whole issue. Who am I supposed to reach out to? The 2 people at work I occasionally talk to because they happen to sit in the same office as me?
I'm late for this comment, but finding a recreational team sport club in your area is what I could recommend. You have immediately something in common with everyone and it's a healthy exercise.
Those two people might be a start, and it's a low barrier to their participation to say you want to try a nearby cafe for lunch tomorrow if they're interested.
Longer term: make opportunities to occasionally talk to other people. Join a club, join a fitness group of some kind, take a class at your local library. It's got be something in person with enough repetition with the same people that everyone involved can overcome inertia enough to talk.
Try to say 'yes' should an occasional contact invite you to something, because it's pretty common that you won't get asked a second time if you pass on the first - I assume that's because we're all scared stiff that no-one likes us.
I need to take a heaping spoonful of my own advice here, but: yeah, kind of yes. You don't have to think of them as the people you've been searching all your life for, but to meet people, you need a source of people to draw from. Those two people you talk to on a semi-regular basis are entry nodes into the social network.
This is a thing that's always surprised me when I've been in the US. How common it is to enthusiastically arrange to do some activity together, get a meal, play a game, have a drink, whatever, and then for people to just call it off at the last minute. It seems much more socially acceptable to do so than either the UK (where I live) or France (where I have lived and still visit regularly).
The loneliness thing seems common across Europe too though so I'm not suggesting this is the root of the problem. But I do think that whilst this is a global problem the solutions are likely to be local, working with and leveraging different cultural norms.
I think that most of us Europeans think the Americans are over enthusiastic, which can give us the impression that they want to do something more than they actually do.
I think your comment about social acceptance in the UK is slightly off. It's person dependent. I would say my experience aligns closer with the 50% mark. It's a massive variant from person to person. I have friends that will turn up to anything, rain or shine, sickness or in health. Equally, I know people that would flake on a wedding because they stubbed their toe or the latest season of [insert meaningless reality show] came out.
On the other hand, you also can't have an attachment to what you want the outcomes to be. You can't expect the same in return from everyone else. Until you let go of this transactional mindset, you will grow resentful when a lot of them start canceling on you, and believe me, at your 30s and above, with all these things that compete for our time, they will.
> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
Most importantly, you have to hear “I can’t” and be really cool about it or folks will half commit out of guilt and bail. They probably have a good reason, especially if they have kids. Or maybe they’re just exhausted! That is valid - you will sometimes feel that way too, and you should clearly (but politely) communicate it when you need.
If you consistently say yes/no and adhere to it, people will return the favor and you’ll all be better for it. My social life vastly improved post COVID when I adhered to that. My friends and I are incredibly honest so now folks rarely bail (always for good reason) and we all can reliably plan to hang out without guessing if someone actually means “no” when they say maybe and all that nonsense.
I think I saw this quote somewhere else on HN about a post lamenting how difficult it can be to make new friends after age 30 or so:
Finding new friends as an adult can be exceedingly difficult, but becoming a friend to someone is surprisingly easy.
Lots of people (and if I'm being honest I'm one of them, so no judgement) just sort of expect friendships to come to them. But if you actually do the hard (and somewhat socially risky) work of inviting people to do things, offering to help unsolicited, organizing gatherings, etc. new friendships are much easier to come by.
I was writing a reply, but then saw your comment. It's basically what I was going to say as well.
I moved to a new area. Searched for chess clubs. Couldn't find one.
So I created one. We now have ~10 people showing up to each meeting. From young kids, to older retired people. Facebook is a blessing for finding groups of people who are looking for things to do. It's really that simple. Just do things.
Would say that changing mind i.e. cancelling is probably also parts of our nerds traits, I feel that the closer to the time I starts getting cold feet for no reason.
The irony is that probably that the most time-consuming part is probably scrolling social media.
I've been working on a solution that makes it easier to meet people. When you're out for coffee or something and feeling social, you can signal you're available. Since you and your potential friend already nearby, it should reduce cancellations.
I built an app for this, check it out if you have time: https://tatapp.astekita.com/
That is excellent advice. How do we amplify this advice to more areas?
I practice that by being intentional about my work: I think about all the opportunities I have to meet people and how I can give back to them. I call that slow multicast.
I have a startup in my incubator that I call .find . I am a looking for a founder. I love how you explained it simply, clearly. I would love to have you in my "combat loneliness" team
My ingredients:
- walk the walk
- Multicast
- Seed
- Tie to your bucket lists as growth engine (virtuous cycle)
I would love to further the combat, please reach out to me Joseph de Castelnau on IG and X.
I agree with this so much! I've found that going to people and initiating is the only thing you can do. How people respond varies a lot and you have to be resilient to rejection.
There was a post[1] sometime back about just having coffee in the afternoon outisdes and how that brought in more people.
> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
This is an incredibly good point. Like all things of this nature, I liken the process to panning for gold. In truth, you may not want to invest in people that aren't all that invested in you or the activity at hand. It stinks that the success rate is lower than chance, but it's probably better this way.
Yeah, I realized recently you have to be more intentional for things you want. You don’t necessarily have to host it but you need to reach out and find things going on where there are people.
You can minimize that though - just give the event a regular schedule or have some way to easily inform all participants of the next date. If people stop showing up without individual nagging then maybe they weren't all that interested in that activity and that's OK too.
Great point and many of the responses are very interesting too.
I wonder whether part of this is a habitualization of intolerance for just being with oneself - to be ok with feeling bored, for instance. Most suggestions are about "doing". Just being with oneself without a doing is painful for many from what I've seen.
I think it's what that intolerance leads to which is a big part of the problem. It's natural that we don't like being bored, but these days we have infinite means to keep boredom away that don't involve connecting with others. Why go through the risks and awkwardness of opening yourself up to others when you have a device of infinite rabbit holes and time sinks in your pocket at all times? 40 years ago it was very possible to run out of entertainment, which is quite different today.
This! I agree 100%. How do you deal with the feeling of tiredness that comes after doing this for a while? You know, when you reach a ratio of 20:1 invitations sent versus received? When you inevitably start wanting reciprocity, or for someone else to take the initiative for a change?
If it's truly down to 20:1 I think you need to start looking at what other variables in your life are keeping that number down and maybe have a conversation about it. Poor circle of friends match, poor scheduling, some personality flaw that you can work on etc.
people are so fucked up by consumerism that they expect to be just consumers also in their sociality... like they expect that social relations to be like commodities.
in consumer societies people flee real freedom's anxiety by conforming to market ways, treating connections as consumption not production. lasting bonds need effort patience vulnerability, all anti-consumer virtues.
Fromm said that in market societies love and relations follow the commodity and labor market exchange pattern. they want low-effort replaceable humans. So they became low-effort replaceable humans.
I'm just going to be a "me too" but I think you nailed it. It's just hard for some people to do. It's sort of like losing weight: the formula is easy, but the doing is hard.
I think this advice works in practice, but it misidentifies the problem. It treats friendship as something that has always required deliberate effort and personal initiative, when historically the opposite was true. For most of human history, social bonds were not maintained through planning or follow-ups. They emerged automatically from structure. Humans evolved in small, stable groups with repeated contact, shared labor, shared risk, and strong norms against withdrawal. You did not “reach out” to maintain relationships; you saw the same people every day because survival required it. Social connection was not a lifestyle choice but an unavoidable condition of being alive.
Anthropologically, this matters because our social brains are tuned for inevitability, not optionality. We are adapted to environments where interaction is frequent, predictable, and constrained. Dunbar-scale groups, reciprocal dependence, and ritualized coordination did the work that calendars and reminders now attempt to approximate. When those constraints exist, friendship is an emergent property. When they are removed, it becomes a management problem.
Modern life systematically dismantled those constraints. Mobility replaced permanence, private space replaced shared space, and passive entertainment replaced collective activity. Flaking became costless. Absence became invisible. Optionality exploded. None of this happened accidentally; it was a deliberate trade in exchange for autonomy, flexibility, and economic efficiency. But the biological machinery did not change with the environment. We are still running hunter-gatherer social hardware in a world optimized for individual choice.
Seen through that lens, the advice to host, schedule, follow up, and accept rejection is not wrong, but it is compensatory. It asks individuals to manually recreate what used to be automatic. One person becomes the forcing function that the environment no longer provides. That can work, but it is fragile, asymmetric, and emotionally expensive, especially for people who are sensitive to imbalance or rejection. Framing this as “how friendship works” subtly turns a systems failure into a personal obligation.
If the goal is to reduce effort rather than heroically absorb it, the real lever is not better social skills or more persistence but reintroducing constraint. Social bonds form most reliably where interaction is inevitable rather than intentional: fixed schedules, shared physical spaces, repeated exposure to the same people, and light obligations that make absence noticeable. This is why gyms, religious communities, teams, classes, and other ritualized environments still produce friendships with relatively little effort. They partially restore the conditions under which our social instincts evolved.
There is no free lunch here. Effortless social life was never free; it was paid for with reduced choice, reduced mobility, and reduced privacy. You cannot fully recover that world without giving something up. But you can recover much of its function by selectively sacrificing optionality in exchange for repetition and proximity. The modern workaround of turning individuals into social project managers is effective but unnatural. Rebuilding environments that do the work for us is closer to our biology, closer to our history, and probably the only scalable way to make social connection feel less like a second job again.
> you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake
This is true, but as long as the success rate is >= 1 other person, it's okay.
I started a running club for my apartment block (about 200 flats with maybe 300 residents). I posted flyers out once advertising it as a friendly social running club. Of the 300, the group has about 15 people, of which 5 are regulars (every other week at least), and just 2 of us are super regulars (multiple times per week). It's a terrible success rate, but those are 4/5 good friends.
At first it bothered me how flaky people were. Some people joined the group but have yet to show up in person. And some joined the group and are yet to even converse in the group chat, but hey, they'll come along when they're ready.
Not only do you need to create the things to do, but you need to pick up the phone and CALL them (on the telephone! not voicemail, not whatsapp/facetime) and have a conversation with them. Sometime in 2006-2008 we started sending people online invites to parties and the habit of calling people died out.
If you call 12 people, on the telephone, and invite them for a dinner party next weekend, and 12 people say yes, I give 90% odds that 12 people show up to your party
I see young people facetiming each other all the time, maybe a little too much. It definitely fills the same role as audio calls used to. But I just text. I remember when texting started to become a thing, and I was very much looking forward to the absolute convenience of being able to read and respond whatever I had time, and not have to deal with a phone call. I wonder if that was common in my generation (millenials), and I wonder if we call/facetime significantly less and text more than other generations.
Texting is for sure more convenient but you lose the "watercooler" effect, you're not going to text them "how's your mom doing?" when inviting them over for D&D via text
huh, as a 50something saying yes to a text message is absolutely a firm commitment. if anything, is firmer than doing it over voice, because now you have both put something in writing.
> and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive
As opposed to non-nerds of course, who are famously fine with rejection.
In all seriousness, there is no evidence to suggest that being a nerd (read: having nerdy interests) is related to being more emotionally stunted than the average person. You're just perpetuating a bad stereotype.
D&D is extraordinarily difficult to bootstrap. You ened 4-8 people to commit to being at a certain place at a certain time. If you play online instead, just the coordinated time alone is a monumental effort.
There are a ton of reasons for this. Work, school, coordinating plans with their partner, other commitments , other friends and family and honestly people just being flaky. For D&D this can be particularly bad if you're missing a couple of people who just flaked. Other activities don't have that problem and it can still be an issue.
There was a time when going out and doing things was necessary for social interaction. That's not true anymore. Online is sorta social. It's kinda close enough to scratch that itch for many, particularly because it has none of the coordination and/or travel issues.
But also people just have less free time. Because we have to work so much.
Hobbies in general have becom ea luxury. By that I mean you're spending your time doing something that doesn't earn an income. That's good but an increasingly large number of people don't have that as an option, hence "luxury".
Put another way, the ultimate goal of capitalism is to have all the worker bees constantly creating wealth so Bezos can have $210 billion instead of $215 billion.
The advice “create things to do” is a huge leap for someone with atrophied social skills. Even just attending an event is a terrifying prospect to someone with debilitating social anxiety or low self-esteem.
Instead, a better goal is to become comfortable talking to strangers. If you could do that confidently, anything is possible socially.
Here’s a framework to do that:
1. Adopt a useful attitude.
Before any social situation, consciously choose an attitude that serves you socially: calm, relaxed, enthusiastic, curious, friendly, or simply open. This replaces the useless defaults that keep you stuck: reticent, scared, angry, confused.
Assume people will like you.
2. Set an intention for the interaction.
Decide on one small goal for the interaction. Not “be charming” or “make friends,” rather something achievable.
Example intentions, ranked from easier to more difficult:
- To appear friendly (smile, make eye contact)
- To greet people
- To find out what’s going on around town
- To enjoy talking with people
- To meet people
- To make someone smile
- To enjoy getting to know someone
- To make someone laugh
- To get someone’s contact info
- To flirt
- To talk to the most attractive person in the room
3. Find comfort in your body.
When you arrive at a social space, take a deep breath. Know that you’re safe inhabiting your body, no matter what anyone thinks of you or says.
4. Set your expectations.
Paralyzed about what to say? Set the bar low. Say your words and expect nothing in return. Confidence in delivering your words will grow. Confidence in social acceptance will follow as you see people respond neutrally and positively.
You might be talking to a grumpy person. It’s okay if you don’t get the response you’d hoped for.
5. Start impossibly small.
If you’re severely out of practice (nervous, anxious, uncertain), set out to initiate an interaction with someone where you accomplish just one objective. Then stop and celebrate that win. Don’t try to combine all of these into one interaction—you will get overwhelmed. Then initiate another interaction on another day and accomplish another objective.
Objective: Say “hello.” If you tend to be quiet, focus on being heard. Find confidence in your voice.
Objective: Say the first thing that comes to mind and see what happens.
Objective: Notice something about a person and comment on it. “Nice shoes!”
Objective: Notice something about the environment and comment on it to someone nearby.
Objective: Ask someone a question for information.
Objective: Ask someone their opinion.
Objective: Ask a question that invites an emotional response rather than a factual one. “What do you love about living here?”
Objective: Join a circle of people in conversation.
6. Make it a habit.
Start today: say one thing to one person. Repeat tomorrow. Then the next day. Within about a week, it becomes second nature. The scariness diminishes. Soon, you’ll actually want to talk to people.
When you learn to talk to strangers, you’re more than halfway to making a friend. Friends will help keep you out of loneliness.
I'm terrible at this because I just can't handle extended lulls in conversations with anyone who isn't a close friend. As a result, I talk too much and that's the end of building a friendship. Sigh...
This "hypersensitivity" and even paralytic fear must be understood as a narcissistic trait (people fail to recognize this, in part, because they have a limited view of what is narcissistic, as something necessarily bombastic, and of course, narcissism tends toward a blindness of one's own narcissism). By recognizing this to be the case, the subtle temptation toward self-pity, or normalization or even valorization of such qualities, can be prevented. Narcissistic traits are antisocial, and so it stands to reason that narcissistic traits impede one's ability to form healthy relationships.
> You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live.
The liberal consumerist hyperindividualism of our age is an anthropological position that conceives of human beings as atomized units that merely enter into transactional relations with other human beings. "Society" is merely something contractual and utilitarian, and in practice has the flavor of mutual exploitation. In effect, society is reduced to something like a marketplace. This is, of course, totally bogus and destructive. We are intrinsically social animals. Society is a common good, a superordinate good, toward which we have certain general, non-consensual moral obligations and something we need to flourish as human beings.
Because of the bad anthropology the contemporary world is rooted in, we often feel its practices and aims to be meaningless and hollow. We also find ourselves oscillating between the twin errors of collectivism and hyperindividualism. These two extremes are forced onto us by the paradigm of this false anthropology. One looming danger today is that, as the liberal order collapses, we do not know what will replace it. The loudest contenders are undesirable.
> more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did
That depends. On the one hand, family life was much more robust and lively in many ways than it is today. Parents weren't as careerist then in general. Families were larger, so the abundance of siblings meant you didn't have a lonely childhood at home, and a large pool of potential friends outside of it. Older siblings would assist with younger siblings, and children would participate in domestic duties, so in that sense, parents would not need to be as involved in all aspects of the daily life of the children and the functioning of the household. And in the past, families tended to concentrate more in the local area, so grandparents were typically near children and grandchildren and so on. In other words, a robust family life enables a robust society in general. Social life becomes "thicker" and mutually reinforcing.
The time-consuming element you have in mind is therefore related. All of the responsibility for taking care of aging parents falls on the few children they have or who live nearby. Without siblings or friends, parents step in socially more than they would with their children (or else consign them to the cesspool of social media and internet garbage). There are also cultural factors: parents can become overinvolved or inappropriately involved in some respects, like the proverbial helicopter parent, which itself can be spurred by the collapse of society around them, if not careerist ambitions for one's children.
Which brings us to your main point...
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
Today, communities often need to be more intentional. If there isn't a community around you'd like to join, you have to be the one who initiates it. It's not guaranteed to function or last, but what's the alternative?
This doesn't "solve" the so-called loneliness epidemic, of course. The proposal here is more modest, namely, if you want people in your life, you have to look for them. Every community or social group needs a reason for its existence. The weakest form is rooted in utility, the second weakest in fun and pleasure. They are transient. The best and more robust kind are to be found in the common pursuit of virtue. In these and through these, we could begin to witness the birth of a healthy society.
> So they sit on social media all day when they're not at work or school. How can we solve this?
The naive solution is to place blame on the people who are influenced by the most advanced behavior modification schemes ever devised by humans. Kinda like how the plastic producers will push recycling, knowing they can shift blame for the pollution away from their production of the pollution, because people love blaming. You'll see commenters here telling us that the answer is for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get out, get involved in their communities under their own willpower. These ideas are doomed from the outset.
The real solution is already being enacted in a number of US states and countries[1]: legally restricting access to the poison, rather than blaming the people who are at the mercy of finely honed instruments of behavior modification when they're unable to stop drinking it under their own willpower.
I don't see how the control and enforcement of "social media age verification" solves for the "people who are unable to stop... under their own willpower." My grandparents are more addicted to the phone than I am. Taking the superlative stance of social media being the "most advanced behavior modification schemes ever devised by humans" wouldn't the correct regulation be some sort of threshold of consumption (screen time limits per application), or rehabilitation for those that have crossed a line into psychological addiction? I imagine the easiest, assuming you see "the algorithm" as the problem, would be to ban selective algorithms and force timeline-based feeds or the like.
Laws and regulations are also ”advanced behaviour modification”. That is how they work. Tobacco is clear example of this, almost everybody used to smoke back in the 90’s and 00’s (including me) whereas after years of laws regulatios, taxation, public education, and providing healthcare for addiction, we are at the point where smokin makes you a loser rather than some cool Marlboro dude/dudette. There is very little society can do for grandparents addicted to fb, but we can prevent the same happening to the future elderly.
Limiting at which age you can use the product is just one part of the puzzle. You could also hit a big tax on ad revenue gained via social media to veer people off from ruining their brains. There is a host of others tools as well and I think we will see them implemented more and more. The tech billionaires fight back and rather fund a fascist dictator to power than lose a single cent, but there you go. But I think the Musk’s and the like have constantly stepped over boundaries to the extent that the tide has changed.
The problems occurred when online interaction got mediated by corporations with profit motives that use dark patterns, automated systems and algorithms to extract more revenue from its users.
Most of my real-life friends are people I've first met online, or as a consequence of having met someone online. Those online sites have mostly been run by enthusiasts, driven by some hobby, fandom or other interest. A couple of them have risen highly in popularity and attracted many thousands of users, and also served news and allowed vendors to use their site for interactions with customers.
Those communities that have thrived have made sure that discourse does not get poisoned. They have had active, strong but fair moderators. Many have strict rules against discussing politics or religion, but people have a need to discuss that too sometimes — and being identifiable e.g. between subreddits could put people off from doing that.
Also, where do you draw the line to what is an online community and what is "social media"?
I've avoided Facebook and X-twitter, but I know genuine communities exist there too.
This rings untrue. Hacker News is about the most "social media" type of site I use, and I still feel the shift towards isolation others described.
Also, the naive view is to place all the blame for a broad cultural shift on Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/TikTok and pretend people can't choose to limit their use. Someone pretending there can only be a single factor to blame for a problem is usually a biased person with a bone to pick. The rhetoric supports your cause, but the US is not going to ban social media for adults any time soon and telling people they're helpless until the government bans social media is unhelpful at best.
But making children (and adults, because how else can you tell without checking) give their biometrics to companies (and by extension the highest bidder (palantir, paramilitaries, and police)) that helped create and then exacerbated this crisis is like asking the drug dealer association to help folks quit by giving them new exotic chemicals heretofore undiscovered.
You 'win' the war on pollution by making companies actually pay for their externalities, repeat offenders cease to exist, their assets seized, and their executives are jailed, rather than just 'paying fines' for the thousand of corpses they leave in their wake.
Likewise, if social media companies produce informational or social 'pollution' so defined, we can do likewise and insist they defray the cost of the damage. If they are no longer profitable when the cost is not paid by society, then they'll have to learn to innovate again.
the “real solution” wouldn’t involve isolating children in already marginalised minorities, making them lose one of the only sources of community they feel safe in.
But that's the problem: they're NOT safe in those communities.
We've created these unhealthy gardens where young people feel safe, removing any reason for them to engage in the real world. They don't thrive in these places, they slowly withdraw.
If you parents are your abusers, then their 'real world' will be unyieldingly bad no matter what social controls the internet employs.
You have said that 'feeling safe' is 'unhealthy' because it's not 'real'. But constantly feeling and being unsafe, even if it is warranted by circumstance, is worse in every way.
We, as a society, do not support the agency to children to escape horrific circumstances. These online communities are a stop-gap against this active failure.
Ideally, they wouldn't need to escape at all, but that's not the conversation we're having.
No, I have the feeling that “feeling safe” is “unhealthy” because these online communities children get access to are full of predators who wish them harm.
The online communities in question do more damage than good. They encourage isolation and spread social contagion.
We should do more as a society, absolutely! But these places are not “stop gaps” because they’re NOT helping.
Taking something away by force is not the way to encourage someone to do something else. This is carrot or stick mentality. The city added benches and chairs in all the parks to improve the quality of our third spaces, as an example of social infrastructure.
I've been a remote engineer for about 10 years now, just over 50, enjoy programming but most of my friends have dropped off or gone crazy (trumpers) in recent years, and I never got married.
I recently took a local wheel throwing (pottery class), which was daunting at first, among a class of almost all females, younger, etc, but im 6 months in and literally just interacting with humans is one of the best parts of my week. Hobby is pretty cool too, so completely different than banging code all day.
Sometimes I don't feel like going after days of being alone and literally talking to no one, it puts you in a "zone" for sure, but then I go to the class, and you realize, at least imho, humans are social creatures. It's like food, we need that interaction or we whither and die.
The inability of your friends to have non-political conversations can be a big part of isolation. I follow the “no politics, no religion” rule when I go out and it’s served me well.
You can have political/religious conversations with people who disagree but often it feels like walking in a mine field.
On one hand, I always want to keep an open mind about religion and politics, and I'm always interested in hearing what others are passionate about, even if it's in those topics. That's how I've learned so much of what I have.
If everyone followed the rule of avoiding these topics, I wonder how many people would never hear an opposing opinion, maybe even a more beneficial one, to the one they've grown up with. I think these topics should be encouraged.
That said, the moment you disagree with someone on one of these topics, some people will definitely fly into a small rage, or instantly cut off contact with you, or even slander you to others, or some mix of these.
Ultimately, I think that's fine. For one thing, you have just learned that this is someone you probably don't want in your life anyway, because they can't handle disagreement in a civil way.
And you learned it fairly quickly and at a small cost. Even if they slander you, people whose opinions you'd actually care about will generously take their word with a large dose of salt, especially based on their character, since such a character usually has other tells too.
So my current stance is to just be open to these topics.
Just yesterday, while I was sitting here at the library, someone approached me and asked me to watch his phone while he used the restroom, in case ICE came in and took it. He was joking, but we went into a slight conversation about politics in general, in which we found out that we disagree on certain topics, and he almost took offense at me disagreeing. I was friendly and open to him the whole time, and he was friendly when he left to use the restroom. But when he came back and sat back down, and later left the whole library, he left without even so much as a goodbye or wave. It seems like he just didn't like me anymore because of my disagreement. And that's fine with me. Both would have been fine.
> That said, the moment you disagree with someone on one of these topics, some people will definitely fly into a small rage, or instantly cut off contact with you, or even slander you to others, or some mix of these.
I think this is what changed. I remember being a kid in the 80s, and when my parents had friends over, someone would inevitably bring up Reagan or something, but the discussion would always be polite and graceful, and then people would move on to something else. So many people seem to be incapable of this today. Politics comes up and suddenly the friend group is cut in half and daughters don't talk to fathers anymore. It's wild.
Huh, that's neat. I've suspected that our political fervor is one of those things that we take to be uniquely NOW, of the present moment, but has actually been a staple. (Like how every generation believes its successors to be dumber, less respectful, ...) But, maybe that's not so!
First, I didn't express an evil or hateful opinion, or any which could reasonably incite indignation or justified anger.
Second, I was willing to dive into a discussion, he wasn't. He seemed more closed minded, which to me seems to be a sign of emotional immaturity.
Third, we did (implicitly) agree to disagree, which I think is the right, peaceful, mature, and civil course of action when at an impasse.
Fourth, we weren't even at a genuine impasse, but an artificial one he created by simply ending the conversation after finding out that I didn't agree with him. Maybe if he heard my reasons, he might find something he agrees with, or something that tempers his emotinonal reaction?
I must have explained it wrong. He was the one who brought up politics, and also asked for my opinion about it during that interaction. He was clearly not in a rush, having come over to my table to ask the favor, and lingered here while mainly sustaining the conversation by himself, while I merely gave short answers to everything he said, partly to let him exit at any time to use the restroom, and partly because I neither expected or particularly desired a conversation, though I was okay with it as long as he wanted to have it.
Another thing that worked well for me is to keep discussions very low and quick on topics like personal relationships, work, career and hot button topics like AI, weather, traffic, climate change, house prices, etc. Basically avoid anything that a newspaper would think is worthwhile for frontpage or editorial column.
I go heavy on food, travel, culture, rumors, art, movies, music, design, festivals, holidays, games. You could talk hours on stuff here, just pick an artsy cultural magazine or subreddit and keep up.
Side note, inviting views from both sexes makes for some very interesting short conversations. Both have very very different takes on the same things and therefore won't talk too long. Both being interested in very different things (think dress belts, hair supplements, birth control vs fishing, bourbon and soccer) brings some newness into the conversation.
Cutting people off because you disagree politically is new. I remember having friends in different political parties when I was younger. (20 years ago)
The red scare famously effected social groups from the very wealthy to the poorest immigrant. Civil rights before it. Social-political exclusion is not new in the U.S, but how big the “I ignore politics and politics ignores me” group is, is highly variable.
In good times, when people are generally happy, political representatives have a fewer differences and the “happily apolitical” group is very large. This aligns with the Clinton-Bush JR era.
The problem is, those eras are uncommon even in the U.S in the broader view of history, and depend entirely on being the right demographic. Such as being a Muslim American in the decade following 9/11. I can assure you, they did not experience the “friends of a different political party” effect at that time.
I had the same experience, but the difference these days seems to be that so many people can't NOT talk about politics. There are certain folk who just find a way to shoehorn it into any conversation. It is really draining.
Yea, it's possible to be very politically enthusiastic and active, but also NOT bring up your favorite (or hated) politician in every damn discussion. We all have that uncle that can't let everyone else enjoy Thanksgiving dinner anymore because he has to make it about Trump or something.
This feels like a uniquely American advice. I have had pretty heated, but not damaging, discussions with people on the completely different side of the political spectrum here in Norway. I can't remember a single time I have cut someone out for having a different political opinion.
Maybe the loneliness problem is partly connected to the American political system at this point in time?
Half this country voted for and supports a vile lunatic president hell bent on destroying the U.S. to enrich his personal wealth and power. It's not surprising that over here we Democrats view Republicans as a cancer we want nothing to do with.
It wasn't always this way. In the past Republicans actually had some decency. That went out the window after they elected Trump twice.
I'm the same age as you and most of my friends are remote, on the other side of the country or in different countries, etc, and I maintain contact all the time, for decades. I still have friends from elementary school, middle school, high school, university, and from most of my jobs going back 30 years. I can pick up my phone and call some of my coworkers from 25 years ago without hesitation and we will go for lunch at the next opportune time.
> most of my friends have dropped off or gone crazy
If you find yourself to be the one who is isolated, then I think you need to look inward. My best friends and I share completely polar opposite politics. We have known each other for almost 50 years now. We have had yelling matches over politics, especially during the Pandemic. We have now stopped talking... about politics. We still chat every single day throughout the day. I laugh heartily at least once a day over some extremely offensive joke that one of us sends, usually at each other's expense. But we never, ever talk about politics anymore and we are happier for it.
Maybe you need to rekindle those friendships and see if you can avoid politics. If you can't then I think it's more on you than them and you should reflect on that.
I‘m a cofounder of a German loneliness startup. My core insight is that loneliness often stems from a badly adjusted internal social threat function ( f(social event)=perceived threat ).
This function runs subconsciously all day long. From talking to strangers to reaching out to a friend, the lonely mind is much more aware of negative outcomes, so your mind protects you by telling you things like „I don’t talk to strangers because I would annoy them“ or „I don’t reach out to that friend because he’s probably busy“. And that makes it much much harder for lonely people to maintain a healthy social life.
As for the fix, you can try to set the social event up in a way that has less room for perceived threat. Think of third places, regularly scheduled meetings, etc. Or you can work on the function itself (=your thinking patterns). If you look at research on loneliness interventions, working on this function is the most effective way to help individuals overcome persistent loneliness.
Now the sad thing is that people don’t like to hear that the most effective way to combat loneliness is to work on their own perceptions, which makes the sales pitch rather challenging.
You're probably far ahead of me on this topic, but as an immigrant to Germany for some years now, living with a German partner, I'm convinced that Germany (at least, Bavaria) has its own specific cultural norms that makes socialising far more challenging than is my experience in other countries. I can't explain why, but I observe a more insular (i.e. family- and existing-close-circle-focused) attitude, and also a significant level of difficulty/inflexibility regarding scheduling social events.
For example, I often find it quicker and easier to agree the timing and details of weekend trips to meet up with friends in other countries, involving one or both sides traveling significantly to meet, than arranging a single evening to meet for dinner with a single existing German colleague or friend living nearby. Of course these people have lives and arrangements I must fit in with, but I'm convinced that the examples I'm thinking of do not have such overwhelmingly busy schedules as to explain the observation.
This might sound like a trivial observation, but I suspect that the overall effect, if you scale even a small fraction of this behaviour across a whole country, could be huge.
As a German, I very much share those observations, and it seems to be underdiscussed and not that apparent to most people here.
The German social scheduling culture can definitely be a viscous circle, where everyone having to plan their calendar in advance forces everyone else to plan even further in advance if they want to have a chance to meet up.
I do think it's probably felt the strongest for adults between ~18-35, where your circle of friends spreads out across the country/surrounding cities/world, and any get together necessitates travel. After that, when people settle down (potentially have children) they usually form new circles of friends that are more local again with more opportunities for spontaneous meetings.
So far, the only solution I know is to set a date and stick with it. Trying to find a solution that meets everybody's calendar is rarely worth the effort. First, nobody has time; later, they have other appointments, so in the end it seems to be a matter of priority.
Set your date and stick to it. If people deem your topic relevant, they will arrange to participate.
I'm extremely skeptical of financial solutions to this problem.
One of the most fundamental reasons for my own personal loneliness is that, in many of the connections I've made, they simply do not feel sincere, genuine, authentic, and simply because the other person clearly has a different motivation for "caring" about me than actually caring about me.
For example, the churchgoers I've met have always felt like they were only spending time with me to get me to become a member of their church. They were eager to throw money at me if I lost my job, or offer to help me move, but never wanted to get coffee outside church hours.
Therapists are another example, obviously financially incentivized to talk to me. There are definitely some who care simply because it's part of their personality, but that still says nothing about me and any connection they have with me.
And I shared a story elsewhere here of a priest who I had literally just met minutes before, and who actually went in for a hug the moment I mentioned having a hard time with something, as if this random hug from a complete stranger meant anything other than him following a virtue signalling script.
No, I am convinced that the solution must be free, it must be volunteers doing it without anyone knowing about it, without the belief that they're earning brownie points from God or gaining a potential member of some organization, and without getting paid or rewarded for it, except for the reward of having a new and worthwhile friendship with the lonely person.
Not at all. In fact, once I learned to raise my standards for friendship, I now have significantly higher quality ones.
I have a small handful of people who I talk to regularly, who I genuinely listen to, and who genuinely listen to me, who genuinely enjoy my company, and whose company I genuinely enjoy, whether in small talk or deep conversations, serious topics or lighthearted fun.
These people give me by far the most joy in my life out of any relationships I've ever had before. And it's because we worked toward it the right way, and built our way up to it, finding common interests and building a real, organic connection from them.
It's a little like being invited to things out of pity, by people who know that you don't have any friends and struggle socially: It's nice, and I do feel their kindness from the gesture. But in the end, I only feel more isolated. I want people to hang out because they enjoy it, not out of charity. The social connection just isn't there, there's no sense of belonging, quite the opposite.
That's the next part of the problem: Masking. If I'm only performing so that other people like me, again I am not actually connecting with them. If I don't care about football but everyone else does, we are not actually sharing anything if I force myself to talk about football. I feel just as rejected and distant as before. And if I was on the other end, I would also not want that, for people to just twist themselves into a shape that suits me, right?
What I'm looking for, what I desire is mutuality. A space where I'm not in debt for just being there, don't have to force myself to "pay back" other's presence.
Exactly. We want to be our authentic selves, be appreciated for it, find people who find value in what we offer, and find reciprocation. Which excludes people spending time with you out of pity, and excludes people faking enjoyment or you faking it either.
Sounds like a difficult situation, and I think I can relate - I hope for you that you can find some people who you actually enjoy hanging out with and who appreciate you for who you are. We all have our little quirks, and part of a good relationship is to graciously "overlook" them. That is not twisting yourself, it's accommodating your counterpart. For personal stuff, it often helps me to get out of my head to redirect the thoughts from "what do I want" to "what do they want and how can I give it to them". Once I started considering others wants more, i also noticed more when they were gracious towards me, which, I think, made me a bit less of an ungrateful dipshit and generally easier to be around. Wish you all the best!
Either I am misunderstanding or you replied to the exact opposite of my post.
The skew of your reply seems to be "Don't be so demanding of other people, be more accomodating, give them a break and realize how much they're doing for you".
My whole point was that I do not expect people to put on an act, a show or anything for me, that I want them to be at ease and natural around me without forcing themselves. I do not want them to do anything for me. And I myself wish only to be taken as I am, without having to "pay", to extend, to do something for them, in the same way.
Perhaps I'm projecting the ghost of past conversations onto this one, but it feels like you're telling me I'm acting entitled by not wanting to pay a return for what I'm being offered. I do not value people forcing themselves to entertain me, and neither do I wish to force myself to entertain them in return. I simply do not *want* to participate in such transactional relationships. But people like you come around and "perform for me" without my asking or consent and then call me entitled for rejecting the trade. Does your kind not like being at ease? Do you give gifts only because you expect that they'll be returned? That's not the life for me.
This seems like an important insight. The other top comments are about what individuals can do to improve their situation. That's absolutely valuable advice, but is at its core a solution of the form of "this wouldn't be a problem if only everyone would just...", which is never actually a solution.
What you're describing here is an answer to the question "why aren't people 'just' being more social".
Certainly too, social media has played a big hand in this, but for many people, myself included, these activities feel high-risk, with a low probability of reward. Regardless of the correctness of the perceptions that have led to this feeling, the feeling exists and it is becoming more and more pervasive across society. And, like most problems centered on feelings, "have you tried not feeling that way?" is rarely, though not never, effective.
I actually have an interesting story here. For a couple of years I found a third place for myself in VRChat. It was great, I made friends, I spent time socializing for its own sake on a daily basis for hours. But something changed over time. I'll hop on now, look at each person on my friends list, look at private and public rooms I can join, and instead of being able to just jump in, the same feelings of "this is high-risk" that hold me back IRL result in me closing the game after ten minutes or so.
So what exactly happened? My theory is that, being a completely new "kind" of space, my brain didn't see the choices as "social" in the same way as IRL. But over time it relearned the same lessons in this new context, driving me away from social interaction.
Why? What are the unconscious lessons I learned, and why did I learn them? What have I unintentionally internalized that turned an enjoyable, effective, low-stakes virtual third place into an emotional slog that incentivizes self isolation in the same way IRL socializing does?
Sure! It’s a mobile app called platoniq. You can learn more about it here https://platoniq.health
We have a free scholarship option if you can’t afford the course. Our short term plan is to cooperate with (German) health insurance companies so there will be no costs on your part.
Here’s a highly relevant, recently published paper:
Lasgaard M, Qualter P, Løvschall C, et al. Are loneliness interventions effective for reducing loneliness? A meta-analytic review of 280 studies. Am Psychol. Published online October 23, 2025. doi:10.1037/amp0001578
If you know German, you might be interested in the two books on loneliness published by Noëmi Seewer and Tobias Krieger.
Intentionally choose community and the effort it takes to build and cultivate it [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. People are work, but you cannot live without community [6].
Why, you ask? Because your comment seemed like you had read only the title and nothing else I wrote here, and wanted to contribute off the cuff links you had stored up. And you barely even bothered to summarize any of what they contain. I've been reading this book by Dr. Vivek Hallegere Murthy ever since you linked it, and it's definitely got some great insights into it, that mirror my own thoughts and struggles with this. But in your comment, it felt like a mere afterthought. And maybe that's fine, maybe that's fair, you're a busy guy and have your own stuff to do. It's not against the rules or general moral code to write a drive by comment. But it just feels like a low effort comment. Which is why I wanted to downvote it. And now that it's surfaced higher than mine, it just feels like pouring lemon juice on a papercut.
Are you serious right now? I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, but I can see why you're dealing with loneliness. Take some time to self reflect and figure out why you lashed out here(seriously, really think about it or show some friends this dialogue without context and ask what they think, in person). Like the commenter, I hope you find you find your community, but you are far from the path. Your attitude is fixable, nobody is playing down the problems here and instead people who were in your shoes empathetically showed you a way out, but you need some serious self reflection.
In case it's not clear, original replier's comment here is absolutely correct and it doesn't necessarily have to be in a religious pretext (re: the church article), that's just a palpable example for most people. Neighbors, community centers, hobbies, etc-- these all require work on everybody's end and you must commit to these relationships to create a semblance of something to revolve your life around in lieu of drowning in loneliness.
For sure, my church citation wasn't about religion specifically, but that the decline in third spaces in general and a lack of community can be directly connected to early deaths and deaths of despair.
Church does not have to be a church of faith, it can well be a church of reason.
What matters is that people with shared values get to spend time together on a regular basis without getting into status games that might eventually show up no matter what the church.
I've tried a few types of churches of reason and they are pretty sad, honestly. Hard core, dedicated, non-religious person here, so I'm not saying that people should go to Church, but I've never seen anything approximating a Church of Reason that would have satisfied my (admittedly minimal) social desires.
I hear you. For me things that have worked are those that are built around a hobby -- travelling to the wooded hills, astronomy, music recitals, caring for strays / abandoned pets.
I wrote that comment back when he had only one or two links, and this post had 4 comments anod 2 points. I stand by what I said: I wish I could have downvoted it for being a low effort drive by comment.
To be blunt: what you said was completely out of line. You were mad that he wasn't responding to your other comment (why wasn't it in the OP if you wanted people to read that stuff before responding?). You then got mad that his comment was voted higher than yours (again, putting all that in the OP would've fixed that, not to mention complaining about vote counts is straight up childish).
Just take the L man. You lashed out for no good reason, the person you responded had a hell of a lot more grace and tact than you showed this entire exchange, just learn from it and move on.
Agree to disagree. And as soon as I get to 500, I'm going to downvote his comment on principle alone, even if it happens next week. I'm not mad, and it's not about anything other than acting on what I believe to be right.
You asked how to solve the loneliness epidemic. I provided citations and recommendations. Are you asking me how to be the person you need to be to make bids for friendship and connectivity to establish community? And where to find people you can have an opportunity to make connections with? I can do that too.
> I'm trying to reach those people who feel the way I feel have no way of connecting with anyone, or at least feel that they don't. Do you have any new ideas of how to achieve this?
Go out and find people looking for other people. Volunteer and find events and gatherings scoped to building connections between people. Third spaces are in decline [1] [2], or in some places, non existent. This will be work. It will not be easy. You will need to work on managing the feelings of rejection and shallow people not genuinely interested in you or building a friendship (boundaries are important in this regard; have them, communicate them, and enforce them). Success is not assured. But your only choices are to try or not.
From your comment:
> I also had it hammered into me as a kid that nobody wants me around, nobody could ever love me, I'm a failure, a burden, a creep, a weirdo, and nothing but a bothersome nuisance that nobody would ever want to spend 30 seconds alone with. I'm trying to reject these thoughts, but it's difficult when you have nobody to talk to. It's like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I wonder how many people have the same issue. I've made a few friends in person, but I rarely get to see them.
In regards to this you commented, I highly recommend therapy if you can access it. It will help. This is an unnecessary burden to be carrying through adult life, and a professional might help unburden you of these feelings. The healthier you are emotionally, the easier it will be to create and maintain interpersonal relationships.
Does all of this suck? Oh yes, certainly. But we play the hand we're dealt to the best of our ability. Good luck, in as genuine terms as I can communicate in text. If you feel like I can provide more value with more questions you might have, I will do my best to help.
(tangentially, I recommend replacing "idiot who doesn't understand anything" with something more like "I am early in my journey to understand, but I look forward to the experience"; love yourself first, we are all learning and sharing for the portion of the timeline we share, and it is okay to not know if we continue to want and try to learn)
I agree you (OP) must work on developing a positive view of yourself. Maybe therapy. Don't overlook clergy even if you're not religious. Religion is as much about fellowship and how to live a fulfilling life as it is about worship. Some churches (e.g. unitarian) are quite inclusive and are much more spiritual than dogmatic.
But you will find it much harder to attract friendships if you come across as needy or wanting to unburden a lifetime of problems on your new prospective friend. Not to say a longtime friend can't eventually handle some of this, but it's not a good way to start off.
I would say avoid groups that are focused on personal success or networking. These tend to be full of people who are looking for an angle or benefit for themselves, not people genuinely trying to develop friendships and connections with a community.
I'm a highly secular person and I see people constantly say things like "spiritual but not religious/dogmatic" and I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean. What does it mean?
>In regards to this you commented, I highly recommend therapy if you can access it. It will help. This is an unnecessary burden to be carrying through adult life, and a professional might help unburden you of these feelings.
I'm not the GP, but I have the same experience to them. I have been in therapy and on psychotropic medication my entire adult life, that's 2.5 decades. I'd love to know when exactly the "unburdening of these feelings" happens.
It might never happen for some, and that is terribly unfortunate (but not a reason to not make the attempt). I have no solution for that part of the human condition besides sympathy for bad luck.
I'd like to assert here that "community" can exist online as well. It's not just people staying indoors; it's about how they interact with what others write and whether they even care that another person wrote it. It's about things like coming to recognize usernames and build trust.
Of course, LLM generated content threatens that, so things have gotten worse.
Technologists are not going to solve this with a startup, it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good.
Quoting from elsewhere in this thread: "I have made big inroads solving my old-age isolation with AI. Personally, I prefer Claude."
The people who most exacerbated this epidemic were forged here in this culture and were rewarded with trillions in investment to step between every social interaction, to monetize our connections, to maximize our 'engagement' and capitalize on the damage they caused. They will not stop until there are laws and enforcement mechanisms that address these perverse incentives.
Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media. We've foreclosed casual connection in so many ways, and social media stepped into that gap and wrenched as hard as it could. Lower real wage growth also matters, free time and funds are required for a full social calendar.
It's multifaceted, but none of these issues can be solved without real political power that counters the whims of capital, venture or otherwise.
> Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media.
I think your framing of history is wrong. Trains, and later cars were extraordinarily convenient compared to former methods of travel. We adapted infrastructure to maximize this convenience, not to profit companies. In fact, it's the other way around: companies profited off the demand for convenience they provided.
The same could be said for social media. People wanted small, low-risk interactions with other people over the internet. Companies capitalized on this, and realized that increasing dopamine is the only way to increase capital.
> it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good
I would reverse the first two, or maybe even remove the "political movement" part. Why is it necessary? It always starts with (a) one person taking concrete action on some principle, then (b) one small group of people joining that person on principle, then (c) this turning into a movement on principle and snowballing momentum until the change is exponentially impactful on society. Later, when the public agrees it's a good thing, they may choose to publicly fund it. Only a-c are necessary for it to make a meaningful impact.
I don't have a full answer, but a couple thoughts:
1. Volunteer. Somewhere, anywhere, for a good cause, for a selfish cause. Somebody will be happy to see you.
2. Stop trolling ourselves. As far as I can tell, all of the mass social media is trending sharply towards being a 100% troll mill. The things people say on social media do not reflect genuine beliefs of any significant percentage of the population, but if we continue to use social media this way, it will.
Disengage from all of the trolls, including and especially the ones on your "own side".
> the mass social media is trending sharply towards being a 100% troll mill
I agree. It's one reason I still come to HN and it's one of the few places I bother to comment (and the only place with more than a few dozen users). The moderation and community culture against trolling makes it a generally positive experience. I do still need breaks sometimes, though, for a few months at a time.
I'd love an online community where everyone was having discussions only in good faith. Zero trolling. I can dream.
Sure. Outside already satisfies good faith discussion. There is nothing gained in duplicating the exact same thing online. Use the right tool for the job, as they say. Online discussion is a compelling in its own right because you can stop being you and take on someone else's persona to try and discuss from their vantage point. This gives opportunity to understand another side of the story in an environment that provides the necessary feedback to validate that you actually understand another side. Too often people think they understand other angles, but one will also want validation, which online discussion provides. More often than not you'll realize that you actually didn't understand it at all, so it is a valuable exercise.
Thank you for explaining your position. I don't know if I would have described that as bad faith, more like good-faith-in-disguise, but I understand what you are getting at.
> I don't know if I would have described that as bad faith, more like good-faith-in-disguise
It is good faith from the author's perspective, but bad faith/trolling from the reader's perspective. It, as taken from an expectation of replication of what is found outside, is deceptive. There, of course, can be no such thing as bad faith/trolling if you remove trying to see it as a reflection of outside.
So, as the earlier comments are taken from the reader's perspective, it is what is labelled bad faith. But I too get what you're saying.
I would also argue that even people who I like a lot and have known for many years can be very different "people" online than in person. It's sometimes shocking the dichotomy. I try to remind myself and others to ignore some of the online weirdness and focus on the in person interaction.
This is so tough, though, because the things happening in the world really, genuinely, do matter and its very hard to realize that our passive emotional reaction to them is not meaningful, probably actively bad for us. If I could snap my fingers and do one thing, I'd obliterate social media from the face of the earth.
Whatever else you think of Bluesky, it's a place where trolling and doomerism are rejected. The nuclear block (and a culture of block, don't engage) does wonders for denying actual trolls an audience, and secondarily for permitting people to do the virtual equivalent of walking away from someone who's behaving badly. In particular, doomerism about Trump is minimized there the same way.
There's a fine line between "rejecting doomerism" and "putting your fingers in your ears and going 'lalala'" though, and it's important not to cross it.
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if we're just shooting the messenger in placing the blame on social media.
Bluesky is full of people angry and screaming about Trump. In my feed, at least, though, the "it's all fascism, we're doomed" posters are getting blocked. It's an angry call to action that survives. They're consciously recognizing the pessimism is counterproductive and blocking.
I once shard a flat/apartment with a female social butterfly. She once gave me some great advice, which is to NEVER turn down an invitation.
Going out and trying to be comfortable in non-ideal situations (i.e. you know hardly anyone there) is a skill you can learn. I often think it's probably like sales cold calling. After a while you develop calluses.
There’s really two main ingredients to loneliness:
1) We don’t meet others in a way that sparks relationships.
2) We have personal issues that interfere with our ability to have relationships.
#1 is fairly straightforward. We have the ability to make friends; but lack the opportunity. If we can meet and interact with others, we’ll make friends, and mitigate our isolation. We need to “get out more.” We can join organizations, go places, right-swipe on apps, and we’ll eventually break our isolation. I’ve found that a key is to get together with others, over shared interests or goals.
#2 is a different beast. We need to work on ourselves, first and foremost. We may often need help, like therapy or guided self-help. Usually, there’s a lot of pretty humbling work involved. If we don’t treat the root cause (our own issues), then we can meet as many people as possible, and we’ll still be lonely.
Lots of potential reasons for our problems. Could be trauma, neurodivergence, addiction, mental health problems, personal insecurity, or simply lack of experience. Often, a combination of these.
The good news is, is that if we get serious about treating our own issues, we will absolutely end the isolation. Almost every treatment involves a lot of interaction with others, and relationship-building.
For myself, I was definitely in the #2 category. I’m “on the spectrum,” and I had an addiction problem. Intervention was required, and I needed to stop running, turn around, and face my demons. I needed to learn to ask for, and, even more importantly, accept, help. I had to develop a taste for crow and humble pie. Doing this, changed everything.
That was 45 years ago, when I was 18. The road has been anything but smooth, but it’s always been onward and upward. Today, I have close relationships all over the world, with an enormous variety of people, and have done work that affects thousands of lives in a positive manner.
I’ve also found that helping others to deal with their own issues has been effective.
From my perspective and the people I'm trying to reach out to, they basically need someone to help them see that they are cared about and valued, someone to ask them how their day is over coffee with no strings attached, and not because they're trying to earn brownie points with God, or trying to increase their internal virtue signal, but because they genuinely care about the other person.
Your #1 is great for after this connection with another human being has been made. Your #2 is why it hasn't been made yet. I'm trying to find solutions for the middle, to solve #2 for random strangers on the street, in order to get them both able and motivated to do #1. Those strangers are people who sit alone at home, all day, every day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back.
I'm glad you got the help you needed to bootstrap your ability to find and form meaningful relationships. If only there was a reproducible way to help countless others get past that initial hump, and begin the same process. I believe it must be possible somehow.
I've been trying my surveys in Chicago as a first step. I need to do more, though, somehow. Now that I'm known as the "sign guy" by many people who pass me by every time I'm there, I think I can get more creative than surveys, and try signs that are more interactive to reach out to those people. I've been brainstorming throughout this thread on a few different ways to do this. If you or anyone has concrete ideas, I'd be very glad to hear it.
The “#1.5,” is that we have often developed “loneliness-inducing habits,” that need to be broken. We don’t necessarily have any real “issues,” other than we’ve just gotten used to “hanging out with ourselves.”
Breaking habits isn’t easy. It’s nearly impossible, if we have a compulsive disorder, but, then, we’d be #2.
The key to anything is willingness. If we don’t actually want to do something, then it ain’t happening.
But there’s a hell of a lot more #2, than folks are willing to admit.
Not for everyone but if you can, get a dog. Dogs are icebreakers. People like to meet a cute dog. They won't know your name at first but you will be "Fido's Dad" or "Dave's Mom". Other dog owners will greet you and so long as your dogs don't hate each other you already have something in common.
A dog gives you a reason to be wherever you want to be - take a walk around the neighborhood or to the park. You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes, you're walking the dog.
But for for goodness sake, pick up after the pooch. If you can wipe your own arse you can pick up a dog turd with a plastic bag.
Anecdotally, I've had a lot of people in my life recede after getting pets. They're an excellent excuse to say no to things that you might otherwise do, because you need to get home and take care of the pet or you can't find a sitter to go on a trip etc.
Not generalizing to all people, but I think for some a pet can reinforce anti-social tendencies.
Dogs are a bit like having kids, if you embrace it. They make it tougher to do extended trips (e.g. foreign countries), but you can develop an entire social network through them. Doing dog-related trips is a new world of opportunities. I did a three night stay across the state with a bunch of my dog park friends a few years ago. Hikes with the dogs during the day, beer and board games every evening.
I have an older neighbor who just absolutely loves dogs. He sits by his window all day long and runs outside every time a dog comes by to give them a treat. On hot days he has bowls filled with ice water and a kiddy pool for them to splash in.
I lived here almost 6 years before doing much more than a smile and nod to him, but my next door neighbors with a dog befriended him almost as soon as they moved in.
It wasn't until our son started walking and would stop and try and play in the dog water that we ever really talked to him.
But that's like befriending others through the kids. Those usually are very shallow relationships. If they suddenly stop seeing you they wouldn't even check if you are OK or what happened. I guess it's better than nothing but that's not for me.
Having many shallow relationships is the first (well, second) step towards having a few deeper ones. You can't befriend people you never meet, and people find it extremely offputting for someone they don't know to immediately try to be their best friend.
Plenty of my former coworkers have evolved into lifelong substantial friendships.
What started with smalltalk evolved into conversations over lunch which then afforded after work socializing which then led to actively scheduling time for shared interests. All of those provided ample opportunity to learn almost everything about that person and open the door to a deep friendship when mutually desired.
Have you never made a deep friendship? How else would anybody make deep friendships? First you do things that let you meet people, then you make acquaintances, then you make setting-specific friends (work friends, gym buddies, etc), then you start inviting/being invited to do things that aren't based around that shared setting, and then you have friendships.
Either that or your definition of deep friendship is substantially off.
Most of my deep friendships were through friends and family. A handful at work/school. And it is the same way for most people I know. But I'm not American, so that's that.
Making friends through work and school are pretty much exactly what I described. You go to a place with people, you meet a lot of people, and some of the shallow acquaintances end up becoming long term friends.
It can be any other activity that requires more than one person. For example I started going to dance classes with my partner in november and what was just awkward "hello there" interactions before the holidays when we had to swap dance partners is now a bit more comfortable and we exchange a bit much and even have a chit chat after class at the door. It is waaaaaay too early to know if it will create new long term friends but the dynamic is here and after just a few weeks I can already spot the people I have absolutely no wish to know more about and those that I feel natural chatting with.
You seem extremely judgemental and narrow in your view of the world. This is probably why you have difficulty forming deep friendships without the social proof of family.
As a counter example, I've made some of the best friends of my life through walking my dog at the local dog park over the last decade. Seeing how people are dedicated to and treat their dogs gives me a great insight into their personalities.
Really? Growing up almost all of my parents best friends were the parents of my best friends. This is a common story among my current group of friends.
I briefly considered it but I don't want to be the asshole. I would put any pet in exact position I am myself trying to avoid - stuck in home, alone for long periods of time.
The older people get the more disposable they are viewed as by society.
When you are younger, you belong in school. When you get older, you belong at work.
If you fall out of any of these social structures its extremely difficult to find your way back in.
I was already pretty disconnected from society and people in general when my divorce hit and now I am completely untethered from any kind of community. Living is miserable I hate my life and I do not want to exist like this anymore.
None of the solutions people provide are easy or functional. "Go meet people" is the most vague, unhelpful bullshit ever.
I think the reality is some people, no matter how intelligent, caring or otherwise full of empathy they may be are just "too far gone" for anyone to have the initiative or concern to care about us. The world is so corroded and socially poisoned that any kind of meaningful effort in this kind of thing is pointless. Anybody with time or money is busy making money.
You can't solve the epidemic because it is a byproduct of multiple irreparably broken systems. People will continue to fall through the cracks and it will get worse. I don't know what happens after that but we'll probably all be dead.
I know a lot of very old people who do charity work, and will continue until they fall over or until they just physically can't anymore.
Younger people are at school, a very social institution. After school they do sports or hobby, usually a very social activity. When it's their birthday, a party is organized.
When you are older, you have plenty of social interaction at work.
One of our colleagues is in a divorce. She's often miserable but gets a lot of support from her colleagues, she's invited at every activity, gets emotional support etc.
I do understand what you are trying to say though!
I'm not sure what country you live in, maybe people there are not very social... is there a possibility to move? Sometimes such event gives a totally different perspective on the world.
This is something that I care deeply about and have put a lot of thought into. I can only speak to what I think needs to be done in America.
Public transportation.
Removing or heavily rolling back zoning laws.
Government investment in child care.
Nature takes the path of least resistance. If we want people to actually meet people and have the energy to make meaningful connections, the government has to set up the infrastructure to make it possible.
I’m going to gloss over Europe because I went there for the first time, and it blew my mind.
People were at the park at 4 pm! I live in a city and hardly see people outside at 4. They have the time to go to these 3rd places.
People were visiting friends with kids, which blew my mind because everyone I know who has had a child instantly has dropped off the grid socially. I understand why, but we need to make it easier for those children and parents to continue to have social interaction.
In my hometown, everything is so spread out that visiting a friend could be a 30-min drive. I was conditioned to believe that isn’t a lot, but at the end of a workday, who has the energy? Personally, I think public transportation would help that also create a lot more interactions with strangers to maybe create new friendships.
Also, zoning laws would help that. If everything there is to do is 40 min away, it adds so much resistance that it’s not worth it for most people. If every neighborhood had a pub or restaurant, it would add a lot of meeting points for your neighbors and will create a lot more spontaneous, “let’s invite this stranger to eat with us.”
Lastly, we have to work less. This is the toughest to chew. I’m fully in the office now, but when I was hybrid, it was so much easier to see friends because I had some ownership of my time. We need to have the energy to be social.
I have a lot of friends but don’t have the time or energy to see them so I have felt lonely for the past couple of years.
I think it’s true walkable communities like Europe kinda feels like college, everyone is busy and have their own life but hanging out is so accessible that it’s a matter of why not hang out compared to why hang out
A large number of these things did not exist when we had a lot less isolation, and a stronger social connection.
You dont need public transportation if you have a strong community proximal to you.
You dont need government childcare if You have teenagers (inexpensive babysitters) or family members to do it.
Nature takes the path of least resistance. I would suggestion this is reductionistic. People take the past of high certainty and higher rewards (albeit favoring the former)
If people _knew_ they would have a good time if they showed up at an event, they likely would do it.
Parents need reliable childcare. A teenager or aging parents can't fill this gap reliably. I need somebody to watch the kids most days from 8 until 4. A high schooler won't be able to do this. My in-laws who live 1.5 hours away and have mobility issues (plus their own lives) can't always do that.
I agree we need strong community in close proximity, but still people need to travel to destinations a few miles from their houses sometimes. Biking is a great (this is my primary form of transportation) but even I know biking and walking cannot fill every transportation need. We need the trifecta of biking/walking/transit to ween ourselves off of cars and develop denser communities with more people to interact with in our day-to-day lives.
Except they did... for centuries ?? How can we claim that relying on community and a network of people is unreliable when it was the defacto solution for as long as we've existed?
Many answers address the question of "how to build community." I like those responses! I also want to contribute to the discussion with an emotional intelligence response. The theory is that "loneliness" can be a symptom of underlying internal factors.
While it is true that loneliness can arise from a lack of community, people, and related factors, for some people, the problem stems from not knowing how to be alone. At its core, the question becomes, "Am I externalizing my world, or internalizing my world?" When you externalize your world, you require something external. We are social creatures, and I do believe we need other people. I'm only suggesting that sometimes people need to look internally first.
Personal anecdote: No amount of community would have helped me feel like I wasn't alone, because I needed the world around me to provide some sense of my self-worth. It felt counterintuitive, but for me, I had to learn to be alone. Only then could I feel like I wasn't alone. It all came down to attachment theory and self-worth.
Thanks for asking! Until I learned to be alone without feeling abandoned by myself, no amount of connection could make me feel less lonely. Here is a rough outline of topics and how I feel they relate.
In attachment terms, loneliness can be a signal that we haven't yet internalized a stable sense of safety and worth. I wasn't missing others, I was missing an internal relationship with myself.
I was anxious even with others, because safety, worth, and regulation were outsourced to my relationships. I needed others to constantly help me feel those things. That was me externalizing my self worth.
I was avoidant with myself, because the connection with myself felt unsafe or unfamiliar. I leaned on things, status, money, in order to avoid looking deep within my heart. In the end, I had to do a lot of internal work. I had to learn that I matter even when no one is affirming me. Leaning on those <things> was self-abandonment in disguise. I would think, "If only I just had a little more knowledge I could solve this." We generally don't solve heart problems with our head.
Loneliness eased when I stopped trying to get my sense of self from the external world. I had to become someone that I could be with. Someone I didn't need to escape from.
How I accomplished it was not a short journey, but in summary it looked like:
1) Knowing my past, tolerating the discomfort, and sitting in it without judgement. I did this with a therapist.
2) Having a safe individual who always nurtured me, and taught me how to be OK with my big feelings. This was with an emotional intelligence coach. I felt the loneliness ease greatly once I could affirm myself.
3) Now that I had the knowledge to know my heart and my worth, I could then create connections outside of myself. I see this like, having the book knowledge, but now being able to learn how true it was experientially. This led to meeting my best friend and partner in this life. Having someone close to co-regulate, when I need support, and providing that in return, has been the final piece of the puzzle.
I firmly believe that most people need someone to co-regulate with. We can't white-knuckle our way to knowing ourselves better, but boy did I try!
Thanks again, and best of luck on your journey if you are on it :).
I was addicted to weed from ages 15-23. I have clinical depression and anxiety/OCD (now medicated and stable). I basically isolated and got stuck in a loop of believing I was broken and a bad person. When I committed to quitting I joined addiction recovery groups and asked for help instead of trying to do it alone. I still rely on the wisdom I gained in AA/MA. Trust God, clean house, help others, go do something when you are in danger of wallowing in self pity.
4 years later, I have a few real friends and many acquaintances. I swing dance and volunteer. I work in a semi-social office. Life is good. I still get paranoid thoughts, but they don't own or define me. I wish the best to all the lonely programmers and alienated people out there.
I am in North Seattle, and I have a flock of nerds under me that would like to see real demonstrations of penetration testing via radio (Wifi and more). I have been proposing doing monthly meetups where we go up on a the rooftop of various buildings, bust out the tools, the antennas, and every other toy we have to scan and show how it's done. There are stories about others and me that the younger generation would love to see in action and then we teach what is going on, how we are doing it, and more importantly, when we find a vulnerable target, offer help to fix the hole. Kind of like white hat pen testing. So many of the younger generation wants to exploit things, but do not understand the ethics as to why and why not, and how to do good with having those sort of skills. I know this might be slightly off topic, but I think the real answer to the question here is who is willing to take the lead and step out of the normal club, party, con, meetup crap and get back to the old school groups like we had back in the 90s?
It seems a lot of you are in Seattle and I'm willing to try and host an event like this if any of you might be interested.
Please count me in if these ever gets going -- I'm a relatively recent transplant (moved here 2 years ago) but found it very easy to plug into the local security scene (Black Lodge Research, Harry's on Thursdays, HushCon, etc.) and while they're fun to hang out and meet other folks in the space, I've been looking for a more hands-on tinkering meetup with clearly defined goals (we are going to learn about XYZ today).
P.S. if you're a hardware nerd, you might like https://dma.space/ (just had their grand opening this weekend) over in Capitol Hill.
A social circle is like a garden, inasmuch as you have to put in work to tend and maintain it. You have to put yourself in a position of potential awkwardness or rejection, which isn't easy. Interacting with people (especially strangers) also takes practice - small talk is a skill like any other.
If you already have a friendship circle, start being the one to propose meetups (cafe, pub, picnic, hike, etc.) If you don't, it's harder - join a social sporting league, group fitness class, dance class, DnD group, anything where people have to talk with each other. When you arrive, turn your phone off for the interval. It might take a couple of goes to find something that sticks or the right environment.
I think that the real trick of "solving" the loneliness epidemic is that it isn't spread evenly. Everyone has their own individual level of opportunity for social interaction, so the solution is hyper-local and individualised. There's no one size fits all solution.
I doubt it's the solution, but a silly program I want to build is something like this:
- Give users a modern Tamagotchi
- Give the digital pet a need to socialize.
- Strap a basic LLM to it so users can talk to their pet.
- Have the pet imprint on its owner through repeated socialization.
- Owner goes to bed, pet still has social needs, goes out into the digital world to find other pets.
- Pet talks to other pets while you're asleep, evaluates interactions, befriend those with good interactions.
- Owner wakes up the next morning, checks their pet, learns it befriended other pets based on shared interests, and is given an opportunity to connect with their pet's friends' owners. Ideally these connections have a better-than-random chance of succeeding since you're matched via shared interests.
I'm sure there's a ton of unsexy technical reasons this is hard to make work well in practice... but dang, I think it would be so cool if it worked well.
I realize this exacerbates the issue in some ways - promoting online-first interactions. But, I dunno. I'll take what I can get these days, lol.
A thought-provoking vision. There seem many many underexplored opportunities for catalyzing social connections - match making.
When I'm doing "broad and shallow" at a meetup, there are invariably "oh, you'll want to talk with X over there, they <overlap on some intent interest>". It can feel tragic to look out at a room of nifty people, in largely desultory conversations, knowing that there are some highly-valued conversations latent there, which won't occur, because our social and cultural and technical collaborative infrastructure still sucks so badly at all this.
In lectures augmented by peer-instruction, addressing the "if you think your lectures are working, your assessment also isn't" problem, one version has students clicker-committing to a question answer, then turning to discuss it with a neighbor, then clickering again. One variant (which you now many not be able to use commercially, because of the failed-startup-to-bigco patent pipeline), has the system chose who everyone turns to (your phone tells you "discuss with the person behind left"), attempting to maximize discussion fruitfulness, using its insight into who is confused about what. So perhaps imagine Tamagotchis as part social liaison - "hey, did you know the gal at the optometry shop here also enjoys heavy bluewater sailing?"
So on the topic question: Want to incentivize greater social contact...? Increase the payoffs.
In my mind, it's more like meeting new acquaintances at the dog park. Dogs start playing with each other and getting along and you end up chatting with the other dog's owner while watching the dogs play together. Trying to recreate those vibes with digital pets.
Solitude is not the same as loneliness. A person can feel lonely surrounded by others. Like being the only non-drinker in a family Christmas celebration.
Loneliness is when there is a gap between desire for companionship/connection and reality.
I've done both extended periods of home office and a period of co-working in an open plan space. I didn't feel lonely in the home office. I guess because I did it by choice and had the agency to opt into joining a co-working.
I think that loneliness could be a symptom of lack of connection. And this need for connection can in some cases be fulfilled online or even through reading books. Participating in forums like hackernews or effect-ts satisfies some of the handful facets of connection that I need. It gives me a feeling of not being totally alone with some of my ideas.
From personal experience, I know that interacting with people on social media barely helps with loneliness, especially with an increase in bots.
What I know would help me is to have genuine relationships, friendships where we both care about each other, even if it's something as small as having coffee with them every day, learning about the other person, asking how their day was, and having these things be reciprocated voluntarily.
Even something so small would mean the world to someone like me, as long as it's coming from someone who I respect, who has something I admire about them. This part is important for a friendship. It can't just be any random person, it has to be someone with qualities I admire. I'm still trying to work out what that means and why it is.
All of the replies so far are suggesting ideas for an individual but seem to be missing the real crux of the matter...
Yes, you'll be less lonely if you join a group, get out of your house, etc... But how do we actively incentivize that? Social media and whatnot have hundreds of thousands of people working around the clock to find ways to suck you in and monopolize your time.
While "everyone should recognize the problem and then take steps to solve it for themselves" is the obvious solution, it's also not practical to just have everyone collectively decide they need to get out more without SOME sort of fundamental change in our society/incentives/etc
I agree with this, and I think we're partly conditioned to think this way. We (think we) can change ourselves, but we (believe we) can't change the world. I think it's OK to think bigger.
To make friends, people need a place to meet, to have time and means to be there, and a reason to go there semi-regularly. A lot of the design of society completely ignores these needs. These are solvable problems.
We invented Soma from Brave New World. No amount of individual action will overcome the primary cause. Getting rid of Soma is the only effective solution.
Even if you avoid Soma yourself, you will still face the negative effects of a society plagued by Soma.
That’s kind of the conclusion I came to. I can make changes in my life, but when everybody else is sucked in by social media and doesn’t even see the issue trying to build bridges is futile. The only person you can rely on is yourself, the sooner you can accept being alone the better.
I lived in Japan for a while which is a much more solitary place than the UK. I think things in the West are going the same direction. More normalisation of solitary activities, increasing social distance, and fewer new families being started. Grim future.
Just because people appear to be doing more isolated things doesn’t mean it’s a ratchet that only moves in 1 direction. People adjust. When enough people feel too lonely, they will adapt and many of them will come up with a solution, likely swinging the pendulum in the other direction.
It is a ratchet though. South Korea's birth rate has been at an existential level for at least a decade and shows no sign of improving. Things won't improve while technology and tech companies are warping what it means to be human.
Now there's chatter about AI companions. If they take off and substitute real relationships it's game over. Swathes of the population will bed rot because they have no incentive to go outside for anything other than work.
Is immediately and completely solving the problem not a good enough incentive? If you go outside and interact, you will be much less lonely.
There is no barrier! You don't need to overthink this. Walkable cities third spaces etc., all great — but literally just go out and interact with people you can do it today many people do it to great success!
You're completely missing the point. The problem is people aren't collectively incentivized to do so. Individually someone can decide "oh wow, I'm lonely, I should get out more", but collectively there's nothing incentivizing everyone to do it, or even notice it's an issue. If there were, we wouldn't be in this situation.
---
"How do we solve the obesity problem?"
"Well people should just work out."
Obviously, that would solve it, but they're distinctly not doing that, which is why we're talking about a broader solution to actually get people to work out.
> The problem is people aren't collectively incentivized to do so.
Yes, we are — please believe me that a LOT of people go out into the world and interact with each other. Doing so is extremely heavily incentivized by all of the wonderful and beautiful things that happen in the world all the time, both quotidian and sublime.
This is pretty spot on. It is like telling deug addicts to stop buying legal and unregulated drugs. Never gonna work.
Real change will require enforced regulation on the methods and tactics social media is allowed to use. Things like notification limits, rules on gamification, feed transparency, and more.
In the states this will never happen. The corporations own the rules.
Pre-schedule it. Ideally recurring. Can be monthly. Possibly even bi-weekly. Agree on a time and do it on schedule. Pre-scheduling removes all the mental load of finding a time together.
People need to purposefully and intentionally do things. Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. There is no fear or rejection, there is no work to get out of the house, there is no risk. But there is also no reward.
My thoughts on this are you need to have multiple roots into your community. This is something that you go to often and talk to people, become a regular, say hi. Think back to how your parents or grandparents did it: They went to church/temple/synagogue, they went to PTA meetings, they talked to their neighbors, they were in clubs, they went to the same bar.
So I think doing things that get you out of the house, consistently the most important part:
1. People need to make a point to talk to their neighbors, invite them over for dinner or bbqs, make small talk. How towns are constructed now is a hindrance to this (unwalkable towns where all of the houses are big garages in the front and no porches).
2. Join a religious organization. Go to church, but also join the mens/womens group, join a bible studies class. Attend every week.
3. Join social clubs / ethnic organization. The polish or ukrainian clubs, knights of columbus, elks, freemasons. Go every week.
4. Join a club / league. Chess club, bowling league, softball league, golf league. Tech meetups, DnD Night etc. But you have to talk with people and try to elevate things to friendships.
When I was a computer nerd in the 2000s, I noticed people used to like to hang around and chat, but I mostly didn't.
Now, everyone is an internet addict, and I was just ahead of the curve. No one hangs around and chats anymore.
When you get off social media, real life becomes far more interesting. The problem with addiction is that it's so stimulating that everything else is boring. You have to let your mind reset.
I agree but if your goal is to socialize more, it's not enough to get off social media. You need to be in a place where enough other people do too.
Think of a city as both a spatial and a temporal grouping of people that are in the same place at the same time. Every hour a person spends at home on social media is an hour that they aren't really in the city and are not available for you to socialize with.
The cumulative hours that people spend staring at their phones are effectively a massive loss of population density. That lost density makes it harder to find people even if you yourself are getting off a screen and looking for them.
I thought of this the other day. I was on the train ride back from Chicago, and there was a family of four adults, sitting across from me, all just staring at their phones. I was effectively alone at that point in time. None of them were present. But you explained it in a new way I had not thought of before. They're quite literally not there in that moment, for however long that moment lasts.
I took the train from Seattle to Portland last fall. Half of the people in the observation car were on Nintendo Switches the entire time. In the observation car.
just find a hobby that involves other people. any kind of team sport, r/c airplanes, shooting, bird watching, the options are pretty endless. You'll meet other people, make friends, and not be so lonely.
'Making friends' doesn't occur by just being in proximity to people.
Quite likely at the end of the night they'll return to their lives and you won't be invited to interact with them again until the next meeting. That's if you're not excluded from existing club cliques - I've gone to many different meetings and come away at the end feeling more alone.
You're right, you have to take a risk and go introduce yourself and talk. The thing with joining hobby clubs or groups is that you immediately have something in common to talk about. If you're lucky, some groups will have a person in the group who will see someone sitting alone, and go introduce them and drag them in. But not everybody picks up on that stuff or wants to make the effort on your behalf.
And yes, it's normal that people don't just immediately become best friends and want to hang out with one person they just met for an hour at a meeting. Especially if that person doesn't even say hello. Sometimes it happens though! It helps a lot if you just go back a couple of times.
The thing I love about car meets is that I can just go up to someone, ask them about their car, and tell them that I like it. You can do the same with any hobby, just go to meets where people are doing things, and not just showing up with nothing. Bring things to share, and a lot of times that brings people to you. Another thing you can do is ask for help with something. People love to help!
Ham nerds are the same way. Electronics nerds are the same way. Computer geeks do the same thing too. I'm sure every hobby is the same way. Find something you like doing and it makes it a lot easier. But the point is if you don't put in any effort, nothing will happen.
> 'Making friends' doesn't occur by just being in proximity to people. [...] Quite likely at the end of the night they'll return to their lives and you won't be invited to interact with them again until the next meeting.
Yes because sharing an activity involves greetings, interactions, group laughs which break the glass before more conversations starts and making friends becomes naturally a possibility.
Friendship is something that grow, not something that gets created in all its deepness from nowhere.
> I think the real cause of the loneliness epidemic is that the older generation never taught us how to socialise and make friends.
That is false. First because most of the social learning is done by mimicking what others do and we certainly all saw our parents invite and get invited to stuff.
Plus there is school which is the #1 place where your learn to socialize and make friends.
I think "meetings" are a poor (or at least, very inconsistent) way of making friends. Doing activities together is the best way of making friends. Bonus points if it's for multiple hours, or there's an element of risk where you have to look after / trust each other, or stay overnight somewhere.
Examples include clubs for walking / running / cycling / scuba clubs etc. It doesn't have to be physical activity, but since you need exercise anyway, then you might as well get those endorphins whilst socialising.
> just find a hobby that involves other people... shooting,
Ok that one made me chuckle just from the initial reading of the wording.
I don't disagree though, I do competitive bullseye, and it is definitely a communal thing. Many old guys at the range in particular seem to be there for 99% talking at you, and 1% actual shooting related stuff.
If I'm going to the range for a set of three position, a 120-shot session by myself takes like 2.5 hours including setup and teardown. If there's talkative-old-guy at the range, then I'm there for 4 hours, and I don't even make it through 60 shots lol.
Which is fine for someone like me who is a competitive shooter but not like really trying to be the absolute best, I don't mind spending 60 minutes doing bullseye and 180 minutes chatting about whatever. The actual competitive shooters at the range though, they'll either have someone screen talkative-old-guy for them, or just otherwise make it clear that they are Serious and not to be bothered.
"Activity partners" are pretty easy to find. What's harder is getting them to make the transition to deeper friendship where you spend time together outside of the activity.
This problem is not going to be solved by individual action. Sure there is some things you can and should do, but for it to be solved at a population scale it has to involve changing the actual structure of society that caused the problem in the first place.
Tackling phone addiction and lack of public spaces is going to be critical.
A big problem for me personally is that, well, frankly, there really aren't many options around me. I live in a small farming town of 6000 people, and most things are 25-45 min away *by car*.
I can relate to this. I was always moderately extroverted and sociable, but the irony has never ceased to flabbergast me that the very behaviours and interests for which nerds like me would have been stuffed into lockers and garbage cans (if I had dared to tell anyone in school that I was into computers) became, only a decade later, de rigueur for every young person.
I remember sitting in a coffee shop in 2003 (senior year of HS) trying to get kernel drivers for a PCMCIA 802.11b card to work on an ancient Compaq laptop, and being pointed, laughed at, and called -- by modern standards -- unconscienable names by a table of high schoolers nearby. It must have seemed so strange to them to see someone's head so deeply in a laptop.
And my goodness, I wouldn't have dared to confess that I talk to strangers in faraway places _online_. To be known to have substantive computer-based interactions would have branded one so profoundly socially unsuccessful, that one's very family name would be cursed with this prejudice for two generations. AIMing one's classmates on the family PC was one thing, but chatting online to likeminded peers in other countries? Why, that was radiantly gay!
But literally a few years later, I can't get anyone to make eye contact and they frequently plough into me because their heads are buried in their phones, texting people they never see.
Trust me I am in 2025 and I am in senior high school and whenever I try to talk about open source or linux or anything others. Friends have point blank said that they aren't interested in it. (only one friend showed interest/shows interests at times)
the most ironical part is that they want to become software engineers for just the money aspect but fundamentally they really don't know anything about the field or are even interested to talk about.
So in a sense this still happens :) This happened so much that I had to cut off my friends because the only thing that they were interested in talking about were woman or insta shorts and very few intellectual discussion could happen (atleast with that friend group and I would consider that friend group to be more intellectual among other peers but for some reason they just never wanted to discuss intellectual topics other than some very few occasions, mostly just shitposting being honest and I didn't enjoy the shit posting aspect that much if I am being honest as well)
For what its worth, the field does have something of an immune response to those sorts of people (software engineers only in it for the money). You often hear a lot of nonsense online about leetcode interviews or whatever, but most of my jobs have asked questions like "do you have a computer at home? what kind?" and "have you ever used linux?" or "tell me about some hobby projects you have done, its okay if it was a long time ago" and used the responses to try and figure out if you were interested in computers. Ive often had bosses talk about how its been much more successful for them to train someone interested or give them space to learn themselves rather than hire someone checked out who has only credentials. If anything, thats the entire risk that hiring is trying to avoid.
I get it a little less now, but perhaps thats because i'm starting to have a good amount of experience to talk about - and getting questions more like "talk about a project that you thought was going to fail. What happened? did you do anything? why?" to try the same thing but with management concepts. They want to see that you're interested.
Hah! I had a very similar thought enter mind recently. I used to get shamed for being on screens too much, now the situation seems to have flipped. Who's the nerd now??
Let me tell you about real life. I’m a caregiver and leaving the home is simply not an option. Short trips to the store, a walk around the block, maybe, if it’s before sundown, provided the person I’m caring for is in the right mental state to be left alone for 45 minutes. If there were neighborhood pubs that might be a thing to do if I drank. Getting off social media is great for those lucky enough to have the option, but with an increasing number of people getting into their dementia years, many with no savings to afford respite or other forms of care, social media is going to be the only option for a lot of people like myself. It’s better than nothing.
First, sorry for what you're going through. Also, your situation is definitely an outlier that I can't focus my main efforts on. Maybe someone else is meant for that. But I'm curious, why not have friends over? Is anything like this possible?
Tip of the hat there, it’s a very selfless thing to commit to caregiving. From a 50kft view, we have an aging demographic globally, and the bet seems to be robotics- hopefully they will get good enough to help meaningfully in this capacity. What happens to an economic system predicated around having more kids (GDP growth) is another concern.
We already have the ability to take care of people now. All it needs is is for someone in power to give a fuck and set up a system and fund it. The suggestion that we do nothing for 30 years so we can leave our loved ones home with a robot care taker is kind of fucking angering.
The robotics thing to replace caregivers misses the point that elder people also want connection. Yeah, it might free caregivers but still we will have a loneliness epidemic. I think this is more related to the desire for progress which is the backbone of modern life (you see it politics, school, your family, etcetera). This, I believe, has been slowly replacing the social glue of societies like religion, public space, play, chatting, etcetera.
Usually countries don't go to war over actual principles such as these but for self-interest. That's what I was getting at. Scare quotes indicate the position of the concept within public-facing rhetoric for an Opium War style operation (which would presumably be about profit, control and so on, the usual).
> Now, everyone is an internet addict, and I was just ahead of the curve. No one hangs around and chats anymore.
A lot of the events and spaces I go to have people who hang around and chat.
I agree that internet use has had an impact, but I think it's easy to underestimate how much situations change as you grow up. Now that I have kids, it seems like we're always ending up in spaces where people are hanging out and chatting. As far as my kids know, that's just the way the world works.
I thought the same up through college, then I graduated and suddenly spontaneous socialization ended. I had to change my habits to go find other people.
And yet this looks very different from what 40+ years back looked like for adults so it's not just about growing up, there was other massive changes in our society.
For example the number of kids we had in the past dramatically affected 'forced' socialization.
The post war suburbanization that forced us to spend huge amounts of time on the road.
Things like TV that took entertainment from a group activity to a single person event.
>Things like TV that took entertainment from a group activity to a single person event.
TV was the visual replacement of radios, and both used to bring families together for tv events… I remember lots of instances of that as a child.
It also brought people together at work. Everyone used to watch nearly the same things, and even up to 15 years ago, there’d at least be groups you could find in your office who was watching the same things you did, and could engage in water cooler talk.
Now theres so many shows on streaming networks, and you can watch whenever, so its all fractured.
Thankfully social media is getting so much worse so fast it's making this easier and easier. HN is the last social media platform I still participate in... and I suspect that might not be for too much longer.
I recently logged onto Facebook and Instagram to update my 2-factor auth settings after having too many notifications of malicious login attempts. It was incredible to see what a transformation has happened there, it's like going to a decaying suburban shopping mall with only a few stores left open (and sort of sad to see the remaining users so continually desperate for a drop of approval from some imagined community).
Reddit is mostly bots, astro-turfers and people so brainwashed it's hard to tell the difference. I remember disagreeing with people on there (this in the pre-Digg migration era) you would get interesting divergent points of view. Now it's like people are reading from a script.
Twitter used to be my strongest addiction, but it's almost unbelievable how big a transformation has occurred since it became X. It's almost a parody of everyone's dystopian social media fears.
HN has obviously held up a bit better, but the AI driven mass hallucination impacting this community, combined with the increasingly aggressive manipulation of the home page, is continually making logging out for good seem like the best option.
> Reddit is mostly bots, astro-turfers and people so brainwashed it's hard to tell the difference. I remember disagreeing with people on there (this in the pre-Digg migration era) you would get interesting divergent points of view. Now it's like people are reading from a script.
It's hard to classify Reddit as one thing, the communities are all so different.
The subreddit for my town has led to several new friends that I meet with in person. Most of that came from coming together to advocate for something at a city council meeting or similar, where there was a directed meat space purpose. Getting together for hobbies like hiking or other things happens once in a while too.
On other, technical subreddits dedicated to digging deep into details, there are few bots. It's all real people with shared interests. Reddit is far better than most forums that I frequent for finding those communities.
The few times I have been swarmed by bots on Reddit was when I touched on a topic where, say, Russia had a strategic interest, then the subreddit would get tons of new commentators from other subreddits, which was the indication of bots. Fortunately the mods took swift action when this happened, becuase my god the discourse is awful when bots flood the zone with their babble.
> The few times I have been swarmed by bots on Reddit was when I touched on a topic where, say, Russia had a strategic interest
The thing is, bot operators know they can’t just post on Russia-related topics - they need a smokescreen of other ‘normal human’ activity, to avoid getting detected and banned.
If the bots that swarmed you want to appear as only 5% pro-russian, for every response you got they had to make 19 other posts. Predictable advice in advice subs, lukewarm takes in entertainment subs, reposts in image subs, repetitive worn out jokes everywhere.
Yes I feel the same way too. This exactly captures what I am feeling right now. I wish there was a way to upvote this twice, thank you so much for writing this!
The only place I am usually active is on Hackernews and on bluesky as wel
> HN has obviously held up a bit better, but the AI driven mass hallucination impacting this community, combined with the increasingly aggressive manipulation of the home page, is continually making logging out for good seem like the best option.
I am not kidding, this is so true. I don't know if I can get flagged again but oh well, The amount of manipulation happening in HN is insane and flagging and just about everything
People called me bots twice on Hackernews for no apparent reason which really hurt and then I created a post about it which got flagged again as well and the responses were.. well not so sympathetic
I feel like I would be better off being an robot than a human in hackernews at this point smh. You get called bots for simply existing and showing your viewpoint or having a viewpoint (different?) or just no apparent reason and I genuinely don't know.
Bluesky has some faults as well but It's (I must admit) more focused on politics. i like the weeds of things in coding. I found some coding spaces in bluesky but they are just not there yet. I ended up spending 2 hours or something trying to build an extension which can automatically create threads for large posts because (you can see) i love writing large posts and bluesky has 300 characters limit and that annoyed me
I don't know what to do as well. I am thinking of still using Hackernews and bluesky but to an degree of moderation. I have tried discord and that doesn't work as well.
Honestly I just don't know as well but right now I atleast feel that I am not alone in this. I am not feeling lonely about feeling like this so once again massive thank you man, these are the comments which lure me into entering hackernews. Not people accusing me of being bots for no apparent reason and this happened on both bluesky and hackernews where pople called me bot and I actually try to be respectful and uh in bluesky someone went on 10 thread comment saying silence AI or silence bot when I was trying to be reasonable for the most part until I trolled them back
And in all of this questioning myself what did I do wrong, did I have a stance and they wanted to deny it and said something, the HN instance just mentioned my name as the reason I am a clanker. All of these things genuinely made me feel like people just wont trust me in being part of this community if someone (even after being a year in) trying to respond nicely and following the rules mostly can call me clanker
Like I just don't know what to do with either bots or people who accuse (you) of being bots. Both just feel the worst in social media and are actively rotting both HN and many other communties to the point that I dont even know what are some good alternatives
I think the biggest negative impact of AI is the fact that we aren't able to trust each other online in my opinion or trust art and other issues as well.
Once again thank you man for writing this. Your comment gets what I am talking about as well and I didn't know how to summarize what I wanted to say!
People are seeking multiple things on social media. One common one is connection. I am in Mexico dealing with family business. I am in a rural area. My Spanish skills are developing but are still weak. I can have light conversation here, but I can't deeply connect. My desire to use social media has drastically increased.
But I only want to engage with my friends. Every platform feeds me various flavors of rage bait mixed in with my friends' content. Some of my friends groups have moved to chats on other less public platforms like Discord, Signal, or Whatsapp. But that's not the same experience. And a lot of the people I like to engage with aren't moving over to those platforms.
We all thought maybe social media would evolve into something good... but it was enshitified. So maybe part of the solution here is to develop a tool that offers that connection without the whole being exploited aspect?
I know the feeling but my impression is that interacting with people that are strictly internet friends is a proxy to the real thing, the same way watching porn is a proxy for the real thing. When you spend X hours talking to people on the Internet you're spending at least less X hours talking to people IRL and building the sense of community that we now feel thinning away.
I know people that are internet famous and are terminally online all the time. I'm pretty sure it must feel like they're accomplishing something but for somebody IRL not familiar with the game they're playing their life looks very weird socially.
My current mindset for this is that social media should only work augmenting my real world social life, not take what's left of it away from me.
I feel like the idea social media prevents socializing in real life is a bit of a straw man.
I've made many friends over the years through platforms like Instagram, some in countries I don't even live in, and we've met many times in person.
Of course that won't necessarily work for everyone but the point I'm trying to make is that social media isn't some one way street that won't return value.
There's social media, and then theres "social" media. Someone veged out to tiktok or instagram reels is not socialising. They are trapped in an endless state of scrolling slop.
We probably need some laws or regulation that strip out the random algorithm selected junk from feeds and return it to just posts from your friends and family.
Maybe it’s ironic that I’m saying this because right now I’m scrolling HN while waiting for my flight to board rather than trying to strike up conversations with people … but when I was riding the bus home a few days ago, I got fed up with the algorithmic feed (too many “you’re single because you don’t follow a dating coach that will tell you to gaslight people” ads in a row). I put my phone away and just decided to take in the scene around me.
Every other person was on their phone. Started wondering what these people did with their day, what new restaurants they discovered, what quirky thing they may have seen in the city. Conversations that might have been had if people weren’t afraid to strike up conversations with strangers. (something I definitely struggle with myself too)
> (unwalkable towns where all of the houses are big garages in the front and no porches)
You can turn the garage into a hangout spot. A neighbor has a full bar with communal table plus TV for sports and he opens up the garage door once a week on a schedule (Sunday game day or whatever depending on the season) and whenever he feels like it on work week evenings. As people pass by we invite them over and after a few months everyone knows that when the garage is open, they can come over for a drink and to shoot the shit. Low pressure social interactions that often turn into weekend outings, regular poker games, etc.
Now years later we get impromptu block parties when he brings out the grill onto the driveway. It’s done wonders for our community in an otherwise unwalkable SoCal suburb.
This works wonders. I did it accidentally. In March 2020 when my gym closed, I started working out every night in the garage. After a couple of weeks a neighbor who I only ever said "hi" to wondered by and asked if he could join since his gym was closed. After a while more showed up, and now I have like 12 people every day show up. One Friday someone brought a bottle of whiskey and we hung out after the workout and now weekly happy hours are a regular occurrence. The neighbors who don't workout stop by after the workout for happy hour. It's almost become expected and folks schedule their weeks around it so that they can be there for drinks in the evening. As a super introvert nerd, I never thought I'd be the center of community in my neighborhood.
This is something I absolutely would not feel comfortable doing unless I was warmly encouraged to join in, that's how I've been turned into a social outcast in my youth. I know some people who for a fact feel the same way.
Maybe one solution is therapy, to help massage them out of their shell, to help them learn to be vulnerable and unafraid and friendly. But many of them refuse to go to therapy for whatever reason also.
These are things I will be running into as I try to resolve this. I have already encountered a young man named Daniel who remembered me, and told me that he was hospitalized, and that the thought of me and my sign helped him get through it. I'm dealing with people on all spectrums of mental health.
In fact, maybe that's kind of the point. I'm trying to reach out to people who refuse to go to therapy, who have internal thoughts berating them all day long, and I have the unique opportunity of helping them through the darkness and into the light of the truth, that they are valuable and lovable, if only people saw the true them, and trusted them to become that.
I am affected by extreme conscientiousness and would be described as a social outcast in my current state I'm sure.
I've always had a decent social network through proximity alone (neighborhood, education, etc.) and in this comfort, built a harsh prejudice against outgoing behavior. I'm not even sure why I held this perspective so deeply for so long, but I reviled the thought of intruding on others and only warranted intrusion on those I judged willful intruders. Most of my relationships are sufficiently available, but not very deep given my refusal to assert vulnerably (including against others vulnerabilities).
I was lucky to find Dostoevsky, Camus, and Hesse notably, which helped break some of my absurd dispositions. However, my entire social network was still rotten on a basis of inauthentic connection and intellectualizing this can only go so far. You must live the perspective and it is hard and vulnerable.
Thank you for these words, I find your mission deeply humane and I strive to live through a similar spirit.
Yep. I grew up in the era of ‘stranger danger’. We were explicitly taught as kids to fear strangers and socialising. We were taught “don’t be rude and butt in to conversations uninvited”, etc.
Still, something else is off. In the 90s, the Internet was a way to expand your social circle. So many friends made on IRC groups that moved into real life.
Nowadays yeah, commenting on Reddit and chatting to friends in message groups does feel like socialising, even though you might go two weeks without seeing anyone other than coworkers, cashiers (maybe) and Uber Eats delivery drivers.
> This is something I absolutely would not feel comfortable doing
Part of it I think is to endure the uncomfortable for a bit.
I felt really uncomfortable in social settings, and still do sometimes. But I forced myself to ignore those feelings. Now I'm at a point that if people think I'm weird or whatever then that's their problem.
I try not to be rude, be considerate and such thing, I'm not totally unhinged. But I am much more relaxed about just being me. Sometimes it doesn't work, but often it's all good.
on my son's bday i drug our firepit out to the front yard and setup some chairs for my wife and I to welcome his friends as they arrived. Maybe a dozen people in our neighborhood walking their dog or out for a run just dropped by to say hello and talk. I guess the fire looked very inviting (it was a chilly evening). I'm going to start doing it regularly, it's an easy way to meet people in your community.
The common retort is that these don't exist any more, but in my experience they're all over. If you have kids you start seeing them everywhere, too. They're not as classically romantic as an ancient Greek agora, but there are plenty of spaces. During the summer I'm probably at a different space 5 days a week with the kids after school.
I think the real problem is that some people forget how to go places. It's so easy to do the routine of work -> dinner -> screen time -> sleep -> repeat that time vanishes from people.
Whenever I hear people, usually young and single, complain that their 8 hour job leaves 0 hours in the day to do anything and they're too tired on the weekends to go out, it's always this: Their time is disappearing into their screens, which makes it feel like their only waking hours go to work. I try to give gentle nudges to help give people ideas, but none of them really want to hear that it's something they can change. It's just so easy to believe that life has thrust this situation upon us and there's nothing we can do about it.
> The common retort is that these don't exist any more
Usually when I see the retort, its also with the understanding that 3rd places need to be free, or essentially free. If theres a significant expectation of money being spent in order to spend time there, its not really a “3rd place” by the intended definition. (Thats the argument I’ve seen)
Essentially free covers a LOT of places... Coffee shops, pubs, etc.
Though I do agree that the privatization of public spaces is a problem (in the US, not sure about globally). For example, the local "town center" is owned by a giant developer (BXP/Boston Properties) and bans photography. The layout is like a typical downtown business district - grid streets, mid-rise buildings with retail/commercial on ground level, office or apartments above, and a park on each end. And crawling with rent-a-cop losers who have nothing better to do than chase people who aren't actively shopping.
That has never really been part of the definition. If you look at that Wikipedia article a couple comments up, I only see two examples (i.e. stoops and parks) that are free, and I think parks are a stretch because conversation is not a primary reason for most people going there.
Also, people forgot how to find places. If you're driving a car, places speed by too fast to see or remember (and it's dangerous to spend too much time looking at them). On Google, places are actively hidden from you for the sake of making the map look "cleaner". Every time I go downtown (on transit, not by car) I notice new shit that just doesn't exist on the map unless you specifically type in the name to get Google to admit that it exists.
I noticed this the first time I took a walk by myself to the town center rather than letting my parents drive me there. You know the routine: drive to the mall parking lot, go and get the thing you're looking for, drive home. Well, I didn't have my own car and figured I could walk there (about an hour, so probably 2-3km, in a country that uses sidewalks). It's basically magical how much stuff you notice that you would just ignore when in the car, even as a passenger.
I wrote on my white board, "There goes today's hour." So if I'm walking by and I read it again, and I just spent some time on some mindless phone thing, I remember that I could find a better use of my free time tomorrow.
What happens when they try to go to that place, they go there, they are there alone and bored. There is no one to talk with. So they end up being on the phone and more depressed.
Our lopsided emphasis on individualism, our definition of economic efficiency that does not include the mental health value, these have been detrimental to our connections, roots, community, family etc.
We said, let the mom and pop stores die, their replacements provide the same value but more efficiently. Let community bonds die they intrude upon our individual destiny.
But we did not correctly account for the value provided by those that we chose to replace. So it is not surprising that we find ourselves here.
Could it have played out any other way ? I doubt it. Our world is an underdamped system, so we will keep swinging towards the extremes, till we figure out how to get a critically damped system. The other serious problem is that the feedback system is so laggy, that's a biggy in feedback control loops.
The world has become a much bigger place. You used to know who to avoid, the default was someone was acceptable. Now the ones to avoid move around and it's all too likely that a newcomer is such a person.
> Now the ones to avoid move around and it's all too likely that a newcomer is such a person.
This seems a wild generalization to make, though I guess "be suspicious of newcomers" is a little biologically hardwired. What's your epistemology for believing "newcomers" are "the ones to avoid"?
This reads like that pattern where people assign blame for all issues to whatever thing they happen to not like. The US is the least individualistic it has ever been, but there was much more community and less loneliness in the past. That make it pretty obvious that the issue here isn't "individualism".
I am not from the US but your observation, if correct, would offer a counterexample worth thinking about.
You are saying that in the past, more resources were spent supporting individuals than the resources spent supporting communities and yet communities were stronger. That sure would be an interesting thing to understand if true. My interest is certainly piqued, seems too good to be true though.
No it doesn't. I live in a planned neighborhood in the suburbs. I can walk to a branch of my local library, a few restaurants, a bar, a bookstore, I even get my haircut in my neighborhood. And even if none of that existed, nothing has stopped me from being friends with my neighbors, or the parents of my kid's friends. The suburbs are a different model with tradeoffs, but they're also useful for periods and phases of life different from the ones served by urban settings.
A planned neighborhood is technically by definition not suburban sprawl, as sprawl requires a lack of planning. On the other hand, I'd argue if you can do all of that (and said walking distance is under a mile[0]) you're not even in a suburb, you're in a dense enough location to be a town or small city. Unfortunately thanks to American zoning and planning it can be very difficult to know what your home area is actually considered and it makes this type of anecdotal evidence not particularly useful[1].
[0] A mile is essentially the farthest the average person will comfortable walk versus driving a car for travel that does not require carrying anything back. Once you add in carrying things (e.g. groceries) it drops to half a mile. Anything less dense than that and people won't want to walk, anything more dense than that and you're into standard city planning.
[1] Assuming you're American of course and obviously I'm not about to ask you to dox yourself, considering this type of thing can vary right down to the neighbourhood level.
>I can walk to a branch of my local library, a few restaurants, a bar, a bookstore, I even get my haircut in my neighborhood.
If you can walk to these things, you don't live in the areas the parent comment is talking about. "Suburban sprawl" doesn't mean all suburbs, it's specifically the ones which don't have facilities and community.
Sounds like you like in a “streetcar suburb”, not urban sprawl. I’ve been in real urban sprawl and you can’t walk to anything. Not that you’d want to, since there are no sidewalks. Drop a Google Maps pin anywhere in Texas not in the direct center of a major city to see what it’s really like.
That's my neighborhood you're "citing". It's a walking neighborhood--cars are useless with no parking next to stores. I talked to more strangers there than in any other place I've lived. My doctor would stop me on the street to look in my grocery bags.
I mean, the very first paragraph of your own link says: "However, subsequent investigations revealed that the extent of public apathy was exaggerated." and the second paragraph says, "Researchers have since uncovered major inaccuracies in the Times article, and police interviews revealed that some witnesses had attempted to contact authorities."
I live in probably the most walkable city in the world, but there are millions of lonely people here as well. From any of my observations, I can’t pinpoint to one single problem.
It might be a composite effect of different things contributing to the easiness of being alone. Cultural skill that overtime gets eroded, and as less time people spend among others, it becomes even harder to go back.
This. I also like the idea of libraries having a cafe, internet access, a place to meet, all non profit and owned by the community. Community is a function of distance, broadly speaking.
Within KCLS, there are two public libraries that have maker spaces (AFAIK): Bellevue, Federal Way.
PS this is not meant to be confrontational, would love it if there were more maker spaces in libraries (when have asked in the past, the usual answer is that they do not have enough space for it).
I'm willing to bet that the libraries near the person you're talking to have all but maybe a cafe. I mean, I've never seen a library in the US that didn't have internet access and a place to meet and that weren't nonprofit.
Suburban sprawl is not going to be "fixed" in anyones lifetime. But it doesn't have to be limiting. I grew up in a very typical suburban style neighborhood in the 1970s. Tract homes, lots of cul-de-sac streets. But neighbors talked to one another, kids played together, there were summer gatherings in those cul-de-sacs on the 4th of July or Labor Day.
Don't think you have to live in some idealized fantasy land to go talk to your neighbors.
I live in a suburban neighborhood with a couple bag ends, our neighborhood is pretty social. couple of neighborhood bbqs a year, kids all playing together every day, dinners, etc. It is quiet and not a lot of traffic with long term residents. I am not 100% on what exactly the key is for a town is, I think style matters, but Ive been in walkable neighborhoods without a good community, and non-walkable neighborhoods with one.
I'll say that when I was a kid, the neighborhood was still as it was originally built, no sidewalks. Didn't stop anyone from socializing, didn't stop kids from biking around.
The city added sidewalks there in the '00s or so, but when I go back there I almost never see anyone using them.
I think the trend of isolation and loneliness is not really related to infrastructure or stuff like "walkability." Those things are pretty minor obstacles.
How big were the lots? How far of a walk was the closest bar, grocery store, cafe? Do you have to walk onto someone's property to talk to them if they are sitting on the porch?
I lived in a car dependent burb for 20+ years and would rarely, if ever, run into my neighbors out on the town. Living in a walkable neighborhood in a medium-low density city for under a year and I regularly run into my neighbors.
Standard 0.25 acre suburban lots. No markets, cafes, or anything like that it was a bog-standard subdivision. There was a small park sort of centrally located but that was really the only ammenity. Supermarket was a few miles away. Nobody walked there, cars to go anywhere. Neighbors still knew one another, at least on the same streets. Kids met at school, figured out where each other lived.
I knew cul de sac was french for bag end, or end of sack or whatever the translation was. One time reading lord of the rings after learning Tolkien explicitly avoided french loan words, I realized Bilbo living at Bag End is kind of a joke. Its just saying Bilbo lives in the cul de sac.
For what it's worth, many (most?) countries have most of their people living in places that are not sprawling suburbs. It's worst in the "Anglosphere" countries (US/Canada/Australia) within the last 50-70 years, but it's absolutely not a fantasy land. It's the way things were everywhere before 1940, and most places still are today.
I say that because it is fixable, if we let ourselves fix it...
Your point stands though, even in a fairly antisocial layout of a suburb, you can still usually make friends with a decent number of people nearby.
You're answering the question, "In a loneliness epidemic, what can I do to be less lonely?" Your answer is to use self discipline (which is hard) to get out of your house consistently, a decent answer to that question.
To actually fix the loneliness epidemic, you'd have to get everyone else to do that.
In the 20th century, getting out of the house consistently was the easiest way to interact with other people. Now, you can interact with lots of other people (in a less satisfying way) without leaving your house. What's going to fix that?
How do we get everyone to eat better? How do we get everyone to get enough sleep? How do we get everyone to exercise more? "Just tell them to do it" won't work. "Why don't we all just put our phones away?" won't work. We'd need a policy.
(My best guess: in the US, mandate that health insurers pay for therapy, and provide therapy at low/no cost in countries with national health care.)
I was with you up until you said policy was the solution. No, action must come first. Policy needs people to agree on it, and can take a long time to enact. Action can be done now, and allows experimentation and disagreement. I am looking for actionable solutions that I can experiment with as one lone individual with time to spare on Sundays.
If you're looking for individual advice, instead of "solving" the whole epidemic, then here's mine.
To solve loneliness for yourself, you've got to get out of the house more. But, deep down, you already knew that, right? Just like we all know we should exercise more, eat better, etc. Self discipline is hard.
So, my advice for that is to work with a therapist. A therapist can help you do the thing that you know you need to do but can't make yourself do.
People often think therapy is only for "serious" problems, but it's great for just helping you to stop sabotaging yourself (and we all sabotage ourselves, in big ways and small).
Therapists have regularly scheduled appointments, which also helps in its own right. (You'll get better workout results if you exercise weekly with a trainer.)
Scheduled recurring appointments make it easier to attend other social gatherings, too. The chess club means every Tuesday night. People will be watching Monday night football at the bar. Church is on Sunday. (Temple is on Saturday, Jumu'ah is on Friday, etc.)
But you knew all that, already, too. To do what you already knew you need to do, try therapy.
For the whole thread, it's open-ended. People can brainstorm whatever they want to based on the title. It's good that it's ambiguous. The more conversations, the better.
But for me, I'm looking for ways that I can help solve other people's loneliness, both on an individual basis, and eventually en masse, but still me doing something as one individual.
This is what all my replies have been about, and why I posted one top-level comment asking that very specific question. I want to know what individuals can do that's actionable to help other people.
Investing in free places where people can do cool things in public like libraries can help. Investing in public transportation so that more people can get around easier can help. Making sure that people have enough money that they don't need to work 2 jobs to get by and they aren't under constant worry of not being able to pay rent would help. Making sure people are able to get the healthcare they need so that they are feeling well enough to go out places would help.
It's hard to act when you're sick and exhausted and physically isolated and broke and there's nowhere in public filled with people worth visiting. Policy can help improve that situation so that action can happen.
> I am looking for actionable solutions that I can experiment with as one lone individual with time to spare on Sundays.
Since you've probably already got the time, energy, and money to invest this should be pretty easy.
The easiest answer? Go find a protest group. There are people out pretty much every week all over the place. You'll meet tons of very friendly people and you'll already have something to discuss with the strangers you meet. You can spend your weekends with new passionate people outdoors holding signs and marching around. Doesn't get more actionable than that. Comes with a low risk of getting shot or teargassed and a high risk of being profiled by the feds (although these days who isn't on a list right?)
Not political? Volunteer helping people. Soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and food banks are a great place to start. You'll be doing something good for others in your community and get a chance to meet and speak with other volunteers and the people you're helping. (Fair warning: repeated exposure to good people who are struggling may cause you to become more political)
Are you active? Join a sports team for a sport you enjoy or have always wanted to try. There are usually local groups looking for members and again you'll be starting with something to talk about and a shared interest.
Pay for classes in something you're interested in. Meet your teachers and classmates. Learn something cool in the process! Works best if you're learning something that requires you to create or do something.
Not in a relationship? Try dating. Be open about the fact that you're just looking to meet more interesting people. (this tip works infinitely better if you're a woman, but if you're comfortable with rejection, patient, and able to pay for multiple dating apps for indefinite periods of time where you don't get any takers it can work for almost anyone).
Pick a local bar and become a regular. Pay attention and if after a month or two you haven't clocked who the other regulars are pick a different bar and repeat. Once you've found some other regulars introduce yourself. As a bonus you'll both be socially lubricated when you meet and if it goes badly you can drown your sorrows in more drinks.
Like to drink but want to meet fewer alcoholics? Do the same thing but go to bars during karaoke and/or trivia nights.
Nerdy? Check gaming stores or the internet for a D&D group looking for members or even better look up where your local Society for Creative Anachronism meets and go there. You can meet people while you learn blacksmithing, or calligraphy, or archery.
Religious? Tour churches. This can be pretty fun even if you aren't religious. Most people will be very friendly and welcoming (results may vary depending on the church and your color/sexual orientation).
100%. Telling people they just need to work harder and do better feel like good advice but it isn't going to solve a population scale problem. Sure _you_ should do it because it's the only thing you can directly control, but also understand it isn't going to solve the problem an entire society is facing.
In the 20th century you left the house because otherwise you were bored.
I love being alone but I am not "lonely" and I am never bored.
When I go for a walk on a beautiful summer night in America, always alone, there is rarely anyone outside. They are in the house, mostly alone unless they have a partner/kids.
I think we have a loneliness epidemic because we have a culture that makes it fun to be alone. Some people don't like this level of being alone but many do. Those that do aren't really going to pitch in to help so I am not sure what the solution is. You can throw a party but I am not going to show up. I would rather be alone. This is enough interaction. There is also a culture of narcissism, hyper stimulation or both involved I imagine. I can't just close the browser window in person if the conversation seems boring or jump to something more interesting instantly.
I would even say that being alone is more fun now than hanging out at someone's house in the 20th century. There is just so much more to do. The group was less bored together but it was still pretty boring then. That is why going to the bar was so popular. Not much else to do then besides get drunk and smoke cigarettes in groups to get rid of the boredom.
I do this. Even to the point where I go to church yet am openly agnostic. Takes the right church, I enjoy a good pastor and message even if I don’t technically believe it can be rooted in morality or philosophy and I can filter out the religious aspects. I could do without the singing but that’s my wife’s favorite part.
The thing is, church works for this because it’s an agreed upon and set time of the week. It’s also a broad group of people. Having friends of all ages is beneficial. I prefer it to a hobby group or our parent groups where we are all very similar in many aspects, although I do those too I just feel like their impact is less on building my own character.
It’s hard to lose what has been lost in the macro sense and then go from 0 to 1. A social movement like “screen free Saturday” or something would be ideal. Kids had to prearrange where to meet, where the teens will party (they don’t party anymore yall!), arrange logistics, and deal with being bored during some part of the day (underrated life skill, as a busy adult I love being bored, but hated it when young). I just recently explained to my kid how TV worked in the 80s. You couldn’t pick what to watch and there were very few times when cartoons were on. You either watched the news or MASH with the adults or found something else to do out of boredom.
In my experience, this is the key. “90% of life is showing up.” If you are around the same people every week, for whatever reason, with even a minimal amount of openness and friendliness, you will get community.
I'm open and friendly to everyone I meet but get treated like a weirdo and ostracized (I am also a weirdo).
You don't only have to be "open and friendly", you have to say the correct things in the correct way in the correct order in order for people to accept you.
> People need to purposefully and intentionally do things. Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. There is no fear or rejection, there is no work to get out of the house, there is no risk. But there is also no reward.
This is the wrong model:
Sitting (alone) at home and working on program code or reading scientific textbooks does have a reward. Many things for which you go outside of the house or where you interact with other people have a much lower reward. So you rather loose a rather decent local optimum, and if you don't know very well where to look outside for something really good, you get much worse results than if you simply stayed at home and do there what you love.
I think by "reward" in the context of this discussion on loneliness, OP may have meant the opportunity to meet people, make friends, perhaps hit it off with someone and land a date, if you're single. Not that it's entirely useless/detrimental to spend time at home reading or pursuing whatever solo hobbies you happen to have.
To be sure, there certainly are many introverts who are perfectly happy on their own with no need to get out and meet people. More power to them! But there are many that crave human connection, even if they happen to have many intellectual interests and for these types of individuals, they would be well served at least carving out some portion of their time to get out of the house with the explicit aim of meeting people. And yes, not every such outing will lead to lifelong friends or meeting your next soulmate, but it's a numbers game.
"Opportunity" is not reward. Actually making friends is reward. And that actually making friends requires a lot more then just "go outside somewhere we cant tell you where". If you just go to a cafe or club, you will sit alone in cafe or club. And if you walk to someone randomly, they wont appreciate it because it is weird.
> you get much worse results than if you simply stayed at home and do there what you love.
That's a sense of risk and caution that gets too comfortable for some people to compete with over time. If you don't build yourself better options, all you want to do is sit at home and do the thing that guarantees a reward. Then you get in your car and move about the world in a way that you feel is guaranteed to protect you from conditions, other people, but really is dangerous. You bet only on certainty, and outcomes are predictable, but they're not compatible with not being lonely
But reducing loneliness is just a means to an end. My point is that there exist a lot of rewarding things that you can do alone at home, which may give you a hapiness malus because of the loneliness, but also a happiness bonus because you like the activity.
If a solution to reducing loneliness shall be sustainable, it better increases the happiness or rewardingness overall, too. Otherwise you see loneliness as a problem, but see the alternatives as being the worse options, i.e. by rational choice, the loneliness will not be reduced.
My son is comparing every alternative to what he can accomplish by staying home and practicing guitar. However, we are trying to start an anime theme song cover band (e.g. "Upstate NY's most energetic opening act") for which he's going to play Bass, Rhythm or Lead as needed and I'm going to be the Kitsune/Band Manager/Mascot.
What a stupid take, but it showcases the underlying problem: there is no loneliness issue, there is a "me me me" issue.
Friendship is a two way contract: you add something to someone's life and they will consider you their friend, they add something to your life, making them your friend.
If you "optimize" for your own and only your own benefit, nobody is going to be your friend.
This is good advice for your friends and family, but a bad answer to the question. "How can we solve the obesity epidemic? Stop eating so much and get some exercise." Well sure, but this misses the big picture. We built a social infrastructure that encourages a sedentary, solitary life. We shouldn't be confused by physical and emotional health implications. We can expect some people to be proactive about it, but we can't expect that of everyone.
> We built a social infrastructure that encourages a sedentary, solitary life.
No. Pro-exercise propaganda has been extremely strong for longer than you've been alive. Large parts of the economy is focused on exercise and health, and it is accessible to everyone.
But it sure feels better to think that every problem is "society's fault". That's the easiest and cheapest cop-out. Just takes a few seconds to type on the keyboard, instead of doing something.
I’m not sure what you’re advocating for. Is “pro-exercise propaganda” hinting that you’re against exercise? I think it’s cheap and easy to dismiss large scale social problems as the individual’s responsibility. We badgered people to exercise and change their diets while the obesity problem got worse and worse. The first time we saw an improvement was with the introduction of GLP-1s.
If your goal is to feel self righteous, keep believing the problem can be solved if people just get stop being lazy and join a club already. That’ll work for some people, but what I’m saying is it’s not a solution to the problem.
I'm very pro-exercise myself, and there is no denying that exercise, athleticism, sports are celebrated everywhere and anywhere you turn, and has been so for decades. And it's not only the propaganda, everywhere there are gyms, yoga studios, sports halls and fields for a great variety of sports, running tracks, bicycle tracks, promenades.
Athletic clubs and sports clubs are a core ingrained feature of both rich and poor societies, and for all ages and abilities. Whether that is just playing a sport for fun once a week as a social activity, or serious endeavors for top talents aiming for Olympic gold or a pro career.
Any kind of sporting equipment you want or need are available for purchase, whether it's an expensive sport or cheap sport.
Athletes are celebrated and greatly admired, and top athletes can reach superstar celebrity status. As well as a big pay-check.
So I completely disagree that the "social infrastructure" encourages a sedentary and solitary life. The "social infrastructure" is very pro-exercise, pro-sports and pro-health.
> If your goal is to feel self righteous, keep believing the problem can be solved if people just get stop being lazy and join a club already.
As Prince sings: "Do what you want, nobody cares". Finding a physical activity that you enjoy is greatly beneficial for you. Whether it's a social sport, or exercises you do alone. You do it for yourself, not for anybody else. And everybody can find something which they like.
Righteousness has nothing to do with health or exercise.
We're not disagreeing that exercise is good. I also happen to be very pro-exercise. What I'm trying to do here is reckon with the fact that, as you say "exercise, athleticism, sports are celebrated everywhere and anywhere you turn", and yet the obesity epidemic only got worse. And providing the same kinds of answers for the loneliness epidemic will show similar results. It's possible that this disagreement is rooted in differing understandings of what "social infrastructure" means.
Sure, but what about the people who don't do this? Those who sit at home all day, scrolling away, drinking themselves to death, wondering why life is so lonely.
The only time you ever see such people is when they're walking to the grocery store. How do you reach out to them to let them know about these ideas or encourage them to try it? Especially when they're filled with discouraging thoughts?
What if all they need is one single person to say hi? How can I find them, reach them? This is what I'm asking.
I've reviewed this and your other comments on the thread, and I think you're making a mistake, believing that to solve the loneliness epidemic, you primarily need to "reach people."
As long as leaving the house and making real contact is harder (requires more self discipline) than staying in and scrolling, all you can do is project a message to folks at home, like "hi, you're not alone in feeling lonely," but you haven't solved the fundamental problem: it's harder to do the right thing than it is to do the wrong thing.
To solve the loneliness epidemic, you have to make the right thing easier than the wrong thing. "Reaching out" to more people will not accomplish that. Elsewhere in this thread, you've rejected the idea of pursuing a public policy, but policy is the only answer anyone's provided in this thread that could make that happen.
(Now, it turns out that you'll have to do a lot of outreach to make a public policy happen, but you'll be asking for their vote, not a regular commitment to show up weekly at a club; outreach is the right approach to that problem.)
We need the Tiktoks of the world to realize their responsibility: users get addicted to the apps in order to numb their feelings of loneliness. So we'd need an intervention within these apps that makes them unbearable for the lonely, combined with a healthier way to engage with loneliness.
Imagine TikTok asking you "you've scrolled for 30 minutes. You might be in a loneliness spiral. Write down the name of someone you would like to be closer to."
TikTok does in fact remind you, quite often, that you've been scrolling for a while, and suggests taking a break. Last year, for most of each day, I would just ignore this and keep scrolling. I'd see it so many times each day. That wouldn't change if they added a suggestion like writing a name down. I'd still ignore it, and I think most people in the same situation would too. But when I was at the store, or walking to the store, that's when someone could have found a way in, and been able to get me to make a connection and open up.
If you're willing to put in the legwork, set up a event on your events platform of choice, take out an ad targeted locally and emphasize that it's free, and someone like me would sign up. I occasionally get ads for things happening locally but it's usually has some prepay component and feels like they are "dropshipping" an event. There are also [city] events pages on IG/fb
> What if all they need is one single person to say hi?
Then say 'hi'. By definition they're not going to seek you out nor are they going to be findable so you're only option is to say hi to everyone and hope one sticks.
edit: heh i hope you're not talking about me, i walk to the grocery store regularly by myself. It's how a take a break from work and get some exercise. i'm fine :)
To me that seems like not saying hi, rather a device to shift the risk of engaging off of you. Don't be scared. Just say a few banal words to people you don't know every day and gauge their reaction, start a conversation if you like and they seem to be up for it.
You just have to become the most friendly ultimate host in the world. Start up random conversations with those people at the grocery store or on the street and invite them to your bbq you are having this weekend.
But ultimately, if a man is sitting in his kitchen and its on fire. Its up to him to run out. No amount of reaching out will help until he decides to make the change.
While this is true, it's worth mentioning that a regular coffee machine small talk in the office is not building any relationships. At least that's how I experience it. It can start one, but won't automatically make one.
I can go for a coffee and routinely get dragged into 30 min conversation about politics, or cars, or weather, or any other subject I literally don't care about. All the good relationships begin with finding a niche topic between 2 people.
YMMV I guess. I've got tons of friends I've made walking around the office and just dropping in and asking people what they're working on and introducing myself, or sitting at a table with people I didn't. Some are no more than acquaintances, but some are close friends now.
It doesn't have to be an office - young people just need to get out and engage with the world in whatever way works for them. I tell this to my teenagers all the time. They are used to our nice house in the woods, 10 minutes outside of town, where their old parents work remotely and relax at home. But I remind them that this is a good place for our old age, not their youth. I spent my 20s exploring the world, climbing mountains, meeting new people, making mistakes, learning, and growing. They would be happier if they likewise got out and explored... hopefully with fewer mistakes.
But there is far more to the world than offices, so while I agree 100% with the sentiment, I'd broaden those horizons.
For sure. I would have been in real trouble if covid had happened when I was 20. The few times I tried to work remotely it took a matter of just a few days to go stir crazy. The office was a good environment for me (it helped that it was legitimately a good environment with good coworkers, not everyone has that).
As a family man with a wife, two kids, two cats, and a dog ... working from home is no big deal for me now. I prefer it. I got lucky that we did not get forced into this until I was in a position to handle it well.
I agree with this take. I'm definitely not friends with everyone I've worked with in person, but some of the most meaningful post-college friendships were formed by socializing with the people in the office (or people I met through socializing with office friends).
Yep, I met my wife at an office party - she didn't work for the company, just stopped by with someone who did
And not just the office friends that come from it -- I spent an hour a day on the bus, grabbed lunch around town, was downtown when work wrapped up and ended up at a nearby bar/restaurant, went to shows because I was downtown, etc.
Just being forced out of the house led to SO MUCH MORE.
Now I work from home and while we do travel a lot, we barely ever leave the house when we're home. We didn't make a single new friend for like 5 years (and we are a VERY social couple, generally the center of most of our friend groups). We've only just now started making new friends again now that our daughter is a toddler and getting us out of the house -- and it is incredibly refreshing
It's not just willingness, as the OP mentions, being forced out of the house lots of things happen, some of them social. Having everything in the house, from work to shopping to entertainment is a convenience that could even save you some money, but it has a cost down the line.
Yeah I'm very willing to socialize and actually do far more than pretty much anyone I know, even those without kids (but maybe not as much as a 25 year old just getting started in the world and living in SF like I once was). I'm lucky in that regard I guess.
This as well. You need to learn to talk to people, socialize, handle adversity, etc. Sitting at home and your only real connection to the outside world being an echo chamber like facebook or whatever cannot be good for us
Absolutely, I agree. Some of the people I had the sharpest debates with and didn't always agree with had way more impact on who I am today than the softer acquaintances. Most of them definitely made me a better person in the end, even if we weren't really "friends".
And yeah, even just having the basic daily connections can be a dopamine hit.
based on the work of Robert Putnam is an essential backgrounder on the topic.
Yet, if you're concerned about Gen Z, 2-4 are aspirational at best. Churches, clubs, live music events, and every other group my son attends have a lot of people who are 35+ and children that tag along but the 18-30 demo is almost absolutely absent at events away from the local colleges and universities. [1] It's quite depressing for someone his age who is looking to connect with his cohort in person.
Leaders of groups are somewhere between outright hostile, completely indifferent, or well-meaning but unable to do anything about the "cold start" problem.
I'm sympathetic to the argument of Ancient Wisdom Tradition (AWT) practitioners that secularism is to blame, but my consistent advice to anyone is you can control what you can control and that secularism would not have encroached as much as it has if AWT organizations weren't asleep at the switch if not doing the devil's work for him.
Personally in the last year I've found a lot of meaning being an event photographer for this group
where I know you can find some people in the 18-30 hole because I read their age off their bibs.
My son is doing all the ordinary things and I am supporting him in all the ordinary ways but I do believe extraordinary times require extraordinary methods.
I can't advise that anyone follow my path but I felt a calling to shamanism two years ago which recently became real, I "go out" as
who is a "kidult" and who embodies [2] the wisdom, calm and presence of a 1000-year old fox who's earned his nine tails. In one of the worlds I inhabit I'd call this a "platform" for gathering information and making interventions as it builds rapport and bypasses barriers and the social isolation of Gen Z is my top priority for activism in my circle of influence.
[1] ... and our data there seems to indicates that Asian students seem to be OK and white kids, if they do anything at all, drink.
While I have no doubt that this is a liberating practice for you, for anyone else reading, you can also actually become a real shaman in pretty much any shamanic tradition, and I know many people who who have done that.
This is, in fact, an excellent way to fill your life with meaning and connection if it's something you're called to.
I agree. This was my path which came out of about 20 years of research and experience. It is usual to get an initiation from others, be part of a lineage, etc. My route was the hard way, I spent my time in the wilderness and paid my dues in my own way.
A somewhat cynical response given the frequency of this topic/question being posted here and on other social media platforms. Add a weak "/s but not really" if you want:
People sitting at home living on apps and watching TV who decide to go to a new group social event to change things up will struggle to make a connection with someone else who was at home on an app and watching TV deciding to get out and meet someone else.
The people who have friends.. already have friends. Those who don't are numerous social cycle iterations in on that.
And how long before those people just end up talking about TV shows anyway?
> who decide to go to a new group social event to change things up will struggle to make a connection with someone else
I can't imagine going to a general "group social event" like a party and making a connection. I'd end up just sitting there being bored until I left. I don't have the personality to just strike up a conversation about nothing with some one I don't know. But I do somewhat often go to events that revolve around my hobbies. There, I already have a connection with the strangers, through the hobby, and I have something to talk about or listen to. I've met plenty of new friends that way.
Nonsense. It's fine to be boring, and to have boring friends. This expectation that you need to be travel influencer or a deep philosopher in order to have anything to talk about is an artifact of social media.
I'm old enough to remember what socialization was like pre-Internet. And by curated social media standards, it was really boring. It was also great.
I mean, if you've already convinced yourself that you'll have a bad time and no one will like you...that's what they call a self-fulfilling prophesy.
It's fine to feel intimidated or shy, but then find something else that does feel manageable. It's something you can get better with by practicing. And I say that as an introvert who went semi-feral after Covid lol.
Yeah I thought that was weird, along with joining ethnic organizations. I don't really need to explain the religion thing, but ethnic organizations are weird since you are forming an identity based on your unchoosable parent's DNA. I've seen both used by leaders to weaponize their members at their members detriment.
Although, if you are doing politics, I can see this being pragmatically useful.
So in my city there used to be some clubs, like the Ukrainian Lounge, the Polish Club, etc. which was a club where people paid dues and the only real requirement was to be part polish, ukrainian etc. It was basically just a bar to hang out at. The reason I put it there is that those guys seemed to get lifelong companionship and socialization out of it. Instead of shaming people for what may drive them, I am throwing out options I have observed.
Telling people to bond over traits they can't choose seems like an excellent way to isolate people with rare traits they can't choose.
I have more in common with a factory worker in China than I do with the president of my own country, even if we happen to share the same skin tone. I am defined by my experiences, after all, not things like genetics, culture or history.
it also doesn't even fight loneliness. Loneliness isn't solved by merely not being physically alone. I grew up in a Catholic environment but because I bought exactly none of it the religious environments were exactly where I felt most isolated.
You're not solving loneliness by joining a cult or a gang. You can only deal with it by making authentic connections to people you actually want to be with. Countless of people are lonely and miserable within families.
I agree, unless faith actually means something to you, forcing yourself to go to church won’t help. Sitting through Mass miserable, disbelieving, and avoiding everyone defeats the whole purpose.
Churches get brought up a lot because they regularly gather people (weekly or even daily) and offer events, volunteer opportunities, and so on.
The point is to find an activity you like, with a specific group of people and consistently attend.
P.S As a fellow Catholic, I’m really sorry you went through such an isolating experience. I hope things feel much better for you now
I think what makes this good advice especially difficult is that it cannot be one-sided. When everyone is letting doom-scrolling replace their social interaction, then one person won't easily solve their own problem by going out to socialize. We need a broader solution, probably a cultural shift away from using technology as a crutch to avoid other people. Maybe the current younger generations will evolve a balance.
Yes, for years now I’ve had this creeping feeling that it’s a social version of the prisoners dilemma: if you’re the only one that puts down the phone (or gets off social media, etc) then you’re just left behind. It’s a coordination problem.
I think that there are a lot of people that are kind of waiting for other people to pitch something to do. Maybe you want to call them type A and B, leader and follower, I think of it as the Host and Attendees. The more of the Hosts the more things that will be happening, so trying to become a Host is just creates more opportunities.
Agreed. I'm not sure how it happened, but it feels like we've experienced a societal shift where a large number of people now expect and wait for other people to create nicely packaged solutions to their (real or imagined) problems. From social apps to medicine to play dates to curated vacations, too many people are unwilling to face "the great unknown" that is just going out and seeing what happens, warts and all. Somehow the ability of boomers to make conversation with strangers has become a meme instead of a norm - they're good at it because they practice it.
The great thing about the comment you're replying to is that it has a list of suggestions. So you've got two options: you can get angry that one of them doesn't cater to you, or you could skip that one and look at the others that do.
If you agree with the entire comment, except just that line, do you upvote or not? I think maybe that's why :) If that line was the only thing in the comment, the reaction would probably have been different.
I'd say particularly if you're an atheist. I've always been atheist, but fascinated by churches and religions regardless, because no matter what you believe, it's hard to refuse the proof that the ideas themselves are powerful and helps people a lot of the times. Why is that? Best way to find out is to talk and engage with those who have these different ideas, probably where they are the most comfortable.
Doesn't mean you need to forget all the horrible impact it has had too, and how much better humanity would probably be without it, or even continue thinking about ideas how we could finally get rid of it once and for all, without violence.
Also, probably different in different parts of the world, but in many places churches are just purely architecturally/visually beautiful and historically interesting buildings. Some of them have really interesting acoustics too, and organs. Many interesting stuff at churches :)
It's not even just an atheist issue. You have to have spiritual beliefs that value the specific repetitive church rituals so as not to be bored out of your mind.
I always said science is kind of like a religion in a way. Wonder if that's closer or further from some truth than "technology". Interesting perspective nonetheless.
I want to do this "grow at least 2 roots into your community" idea but a huge challenge for me is simply that I'm 2nd shift. That naturally leads to a lot more isolation than 1st shift. (3rd shifties, my heart goes out to you. I've done that job. Not a fun time personally.)
It was just a couple of months ago where I found myself complaining that we shouldn't have to pay exorbitant amounts of money for friendship.
Last time I went to a bar a pretty woman and her friends decided to sit next to me only after I closed my tab and was getting an Uber to go back home. She seemed super nervous just sitting next to me and I assumed that if I butted into their conversation I'd get ignored like last time.
I'm working on a decentralized open source Meetup alternative where people can find social events and meet new friends. https://codeberg.org/createthirdplaces
> 1. People need to make a point to talk to their neighbors
There are people who find this satisfying. However, you don't typically choose your neighbors. Don't be afraid to eschew spending time on this in favor of groups you deliberately choose based on common interests.
You might not choose your neighbors but, like your family, they're a part of your life anyway. You can choose to build bonds with them (rely on them to water plants, pick up packages, borrow spices) or create your own little world.
You can also find these things elsewhere—I know someone whose dry cleaner cat sits for her—but your relationship with your neighbors can still really affect your life.
The people who enjoy doing that should absolutely feel free to do so. My comment was addressed at people who don't, to remind people that it's okay to not, and to choose to spend your time in other ways instead.
My comment was saying that the people who _don't_ should learn how to do so. It's a skill like any others, and what you're proposing contributes to people being lonely. Instead of making connections with people around them, who they didn't choose, they hold out for some platonic ideal of a friend who they have the right amount of things in common with.
You see it in this comment section where you've got people shooting down every idea that people put out there. Oh, I can't go to the gym, I don't like working out. Oh, I don't want to join clubs because they don't have my interests. But I also don't want to be lonely, so I guess I'm just stuck.
No, I understood the point perfectly, I just think it's completely wrong.
It's always possible to find people. If someone is shooting down every idea for doing so, they may have issues with motivation, or being defeatist, or any number of things. Those need solving.
That doesn't mean finding perfection. It does mean actively doing something to find people you enjoy spending time with.
Life gets immensely happier when you spend time primarily with people you find fulfilling. You can absolutely make a conversation work with anyone, it's absolutely a skill, and it can be useful. But you will in your life have a certain amount of time and energy to interact with people. Spend it well.
1. fair
2. did this but they are all 80+
3. ok
4. not that good at anything, too old for most groups. gym no one talks with anyone. bjj was the best for this, since its more older and mostly men
5. remote work ruined my mental health
As far as 2 goes: As far as churches go. The type of church matters a lot. If you go to a Universalist Unitarian, or progressive Lutheran Church, yeah itll probably be 80+. Evangelical/Baptist, Latter Day Saints, Orthodox, Catholic (more traditional parishes) all are significantly younger. The more conservative the denomination the younger the congregation. The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture. This also tracks to Judaism, with Reformed Synagogues being much older than Orthodox. I am not sure and haven't seen numbers of Islam, Buddhism, etc. i the US.
For 4: You don't really have to be good for like a rec league kickball, or beer league golf. Gyms are better if youre doing classes though I think, like BJJ or wrestling.
> The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture... The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture.
And yet many young Evangelicals have deconstructed and dropped out of those conservative congregations over the last 20 years or so. They couldn't bridge the cognitive gap between the conservative political stance of their church and what they read in the bible.
My experience is similar. I think there is a combination of "some gyms are more social" and "some people are good at breaking the ice with strangers". On social media, I frequently hear people say stuff like: "Oh yeah, I have a bunch of friends at the gym." I am not doubting their story, but it doesn't happen to me.
> remote work ruined my mental health
I'm sorry to hear it. I'm not here to start a holy war about remote work. Can you share some details? For me, remote work has me very quickly "falling apart" -- showering at 2PM or not at all. Going to the office forces some structure into my life and everything else flows from that. To be clear: I understand that a lot of people love remote work.
Remote work has allowed me to build the structure I need to function and perform at a high level. I have severe ADHD and do not fit well into conventional office environments, not because I lack capability, but because my work is most effective when done on my own terms and schedule. I've worked remotely on and off for most of my life (I grew up on a farm, so "working from home" was already quite natural to me.)
This is also colored a little by the fact that remote work is no longer really just an optional for me. Due to a spinal cord injury, I need flexibility to manage just ongoing existence, rehabilitation, and frequent medical appointments. An in-office role simply isn’t compatible with those realities, though the most recent surgeries do make it more viable than it was even twelve months ago.
I’m fortunate to work for a remote organisation that recognises this arrangement as mutually beneficial: I’m able to do my best work, and they get the full value of my expertise.
With all of that being said, I know people whom are far more aligned with you. Remote work is not particuarly beneficial for them, they indeed need an externally inforced structure and so would be best (and happiest) in office. I would never tell them otherwise and nor would they do the same to me.
I am thankful for the most part that many (though not all) of us somewhat have the ability to work in the way in which is best for us (and those employing us.)
> "Oh yeah, I have a bunch of friends at the gym."
Their definition of "a friend" can wildly vary from yours. Especially if such relationship is cultivated only at the gym. I'd hardly call it "friendship".
The thing about the gym is you need to be consistent at the same days/time for a while. Eventually proximity will lead to some interactions. Instead of having full blown conversations at the gym though, I've also found it really works when I see a person from the gym somewhere else. Obviously in a place like NYC this is less like than a smaller town/city.
I think part of the problem is the stuff you’re suggesting. I think everyday life needs to happen organically and if everything is scheduled and regimented and needs to be planned for, it’s very hard for the vast majority of people to actually accomplish. In the past the way, this worked was you went to church which was societally and peer enforced. People need to have marriages that last a lifetime. It’s my opinion that marriages that are a partnership without any sort of hierarchy like we had in the past are essentially doomed to fail except in a small percentage of cases. You need to have kids with stable homes that can go out on the street and be outside all day without fear of crime. Extended families need to live close to each other so there are a lot of folks raising kids and approaching life’s every day problems together. You need to shut off indoor sources of entertainment like social media and video gaming. You need to have a solid education system that is factual and science based, and only lets kids get through on the basis of meritocracy so they can be good informed citizens, and not vote for populist nonsense like we currently have. In a nutshell, what I’m trying to say is people cannot act on what’s best for them but society can put enough peer pressure on everyone for everyone’s good. This might be very hard to listen to in an individualistic society like ours and I don’t even know if I would want to live in this society, but I believe that if that’s the only option, everyone is better off.
I see this as quite a problem in the US. The default place a lonely person has to go is usually a church - where you can expect a modicum, possibly even a seeming profusion, of welcome. This is their hook. They provide automatic acceptance - of sorts. This is also how the right wing fascist regime convinced people to let Trump take over the country - propaganda through the churches.
The only other options people hear about are 'join a club.' Interesting clubs aren't that easy to find. Hanging out at the local pub has obvious downsides, though I guess it sorta works in some countries.
We need more ways for people to casually meet others that aren't trying to manipulate you or program you with religious doctrine...
Sure, the way cult members are happy to greet new recruits. It's very insincere. If you have a real issue and you want to talk to someone - you are very likely to hear something like: "Well, pray to Jesus dear, only he can help you." In other words, if you actually need any support - go home and pray about it - don't expect real connection with people. The only connection comes through the imaginary friends they encourage you to divert all your attention and problems to...
Also, you have to accept the brainworms to be accepted into the church community. You gotta join the Borg. You can't have a different opinion or be an atheist. Or you have to hide it well and be comfortable with doing that.
It's a cult - a very old one, 20 centuries old. This longevity gives it a feeling of validity or that it's the 'only truth'. But it's really just collective sunk cost fallacy. It's the cultural bandaid that we apply to all problems because no one dares think up a new one. Rip off that bandaid and all kinds of problems it was patching emerge. That's why we dare not speak of parting ways with it.
I think there's a lot of good advice in these comments already, at least for individuals to think about for themselves.
I happen to have discovered a fantastic contra dancing community[1] in Chicago that could be great for some who are lonely. You have to chalk up the courage to go (if you aren't used to trying new things, or dancing), but everyone is extremely welcoming, the dancing is easy even for people "with two left feet", and the happiness going around is truly contagious.
I think it's a terrific place to find community. It's a social dance where you'll basically dance with everyone by the end of the evening. There's time before, in the middle (snack intermission), and at the end for striking some conversation. The dancing is every Monday so it's routine. The crowd (100-150 people on average) is diverse in many ways (at least in age, gender, income, interests) so you're bound to find people with commonalities that, using some of the other advice in these comments, you could try to hang out with outside of the dancing.
As far as getting people to feel like they can join, I'm not the expert, but I've had such a great experience that I'm happy to at least bring it up and "spread the good word".
For outside of Chicago: contra dancing is a bit niche, but a surprising amount of large-ish US cities have it. I think it's more popular (relatively) on the East coast. Can't speak for outside of the US.
Late to the thread but I recommend volunteering. The best medicine for loneliness is to serve others in greater need. Churches, hospitals, libraries, all not-for-profit institutions.
Part of loneliness is feeling like you won't be missed. When you serve others (even indirectly if direct contact is not your thing), you feel needed and have purpose.
Volunteering is a great way to get out of a slump. Service of any kind is really great at gaining new perspective and finding value in life. It helped me realign my life years ago, too.
But I ended up taking it too far. Boundaries start to get blurry, my value started to get wrapped up in my service, to the point it became “well if I stop serving I’ll be worthless”. Which is a tough feeling to face, especially when a subset of the people you end up serving, while appreciative, really end up not caring that much about you as a person. They’re not in a place to give you emotional support, usually.
All that to say, balance is the spice of life. Service is great. Just be sure to balance it out with another source of replenishment.
But the other part of loneliness is feeling like (or knowing that) nobody cares what you think or feel or have to say.
I've been (accidentally) helping people with my surveys for a few months now. It brings a sense of joy when someone comes up to me and tells me that my presence has helped them or that they look forward to my surveys. But it also increases the loneliness that I feel, because none of them care about me or what I think or how I feel. None of them have ever asked.
Well, except for a couple friends I've made, who clearly do care now, and have shown it in a few ways, but we just haven't had an opportunity yet to have coffee or some other interaction where they can show more directly that they care about me, by asking me about how I feel, etc. But those are the exception.
I suppose, that's what I'm after. Not just personally for myself, but what I'm trying to help solve for other people: to help them get to a point where others actually do care about them, and they have opportunities to show it, such as asking how their day was over coffee. For countless people who are just like me, I think this is all they need to not feel lonely anymore. So that's my goal.
And I don't think volunteering is the answer, but I think it can be a start for some of them, a way to meet people. But just as good a way to meet people as saying hi to the person at the next self checkout kisk or the bus stop. The problem for most people is that they don't say hi. Maybe they're convinced, like I am, that nobody would ever want them to, that they would only be a burdensome bother to others, and therefore should always stay silent.
I suppose this is what I'm trying to solve. How to convince others that this isn't true, as one person standing outside holding a sign.
I usually do night walks, talking to strangers, outcasts such as homeless people, street children, store or restaurant sales persons. I treat them food and talk with them and learn from their stories, I do this consistently that they know me. I genuinely love helping people, I also do ministries which I can say is very effective on helping people with depressions, they will learn to have a purpose in life or at least they will learn that some people are living life with much difficulty. I organize people I do not know and play sports I do not know how to play, and ask people to join. We do monthly activities which is optional for others to join our not. Nothing is forced but every one is welcome.
I do think it's worth separating two things, though. Helping others and building community can be deeply meaningful, but not everyone who's lonely has the capacity
In the past, whenever I felt lonely and hopeless, I jumped into helping others: volunteering, helping an old neighbor garden, help someone move, etc. Helping people gave me a short-term purpose, which eventually let me ride out the low phase of life. YMMV, of course.
I have noticed that doing the sign leads to some good conversations in which I've helped someone in a small way, and that gave me a nice little dopamine boost. It's also led to about half a dozen genuine friendships over the past few months. I wonder if that's the answer, a sort of meta-solution: organizing this thing I'm doing into something that other people in the same situation can do, as a way of meeting people and getting outside their comfort zone. Like setting up a chess table in public if chess is your thing. But no, there are already public chess tables, and they'd have already done that. I don't know, just thinking out loud.
This is my go-to strategy as well. When I feel irrepressible bits of loneliness or depression, I just make some food and go out and start handing out to the needy.
Or go for a walk and find people that need a hand. People moving, lifting things, carrying things. Small little acts of being useful and helpful for a moment help.
The feeling will creep back in eventually, but at least for that time I was out and about, it's not.
The common denominator is to have shared spaces where it's expected to be among strangers' presence, and for those strangers to eventually become repeat guests in a person's life. That's the maximally comfortable scenario for inducing social behavior and it's responsible for eons of human social history. Think church.
The problem there is that it's the responsibility of groups or society to arrange that. There's not much that a single lonely person can do there.
The less common denominator, that an individual may partake in until society concocts a better solution, is to intentionally visit existing shared spaces even where they otherwise wouldn't (hint: bouldering gyms are good for this because there are repeat faces as well as a social okay-ness to congratulating strangers, or asking how certain challenges can be solved).
Or break with convention, comfort, and perhaps etiquette, and instead just talk to people. Even outside of those spaces. (This is the advice that will piss a lot of people off if it's presented as their only option.) This advice is horrible until it isn't. It does, with enough practice, 'just work'.
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For an entrepreneur or organizer: it would just go a long way to think about things in terms of allowing conversation to happen unimpeded. Pay attention to where people talk, and about what. Conversations happen a lot in hallways but famously by water coolers, perhaps because it affords people enough time in a shared space to muster the internal capital to start a conversation.
In college I ran a forum for people to meet others and some of the most self-reportedly successful participants just asked questions into the void and were surprised by the number of responses.
>The common denominator is to have shared spaces where it's expected to be among strangers' presence, and for those strangers to eventually become repeat guests in a person's life. That's the maximally comfortable scenario for inducing social behavior and it's responsible for eons of human social history.
This is spot on. It's why you meet so much people during your high school / college years. You're among strangers' presence, while attending to class, which makes a natural topic of interest between the people involved.
We are training a culture of passive consumers who don’t create. People are attracted to activity and action. The next generation is inundated with creation through their phone. They don’t see the space to create. They sit at home alone wondering why they are alone. The reality is because they are consumers not creators. You must produce.
I think a lot about something I've heard game devs say. Something like "players will always find a way to optimize the fun out of the game".
Controversial example: in Breath of the Wild, your weapons break really fast. But, they only break while fighting enemies and looting places, so you almost always end up with more/higher-powered weapons. It's the game's way of always giving you new weapons that have different quirky properties to keep combat interesting. But players don't like that friction and uncertainty: it's probably the most hated on aspect of the game. Players want to keep their same weapons the whole time, and miss out on the constant variety.
I think that in the same way, we've optimized the fun out of life. We collectively tend to avoid uncertainty and friction. We let yelp/google maps reviews tell us what restaurants are good. We watch movies at home instead of trekking all the way to the movie theater. Get food delivered and even dropped off at the door so we literally don't even have to speak to another human at all. We've been optimizing the fun out of life, and we didn't realize it until it was bad enough to be called a "loneliness epidemic"!!
Yes, addictive consumption is bad, and apps shouldn't be designed for that. And as long as they are, we should try to find ways to undo the damage and help people heal and recover from content addiction, and find alternatives to it.
But that's not to say that consuming is inherently bad.
Consider that a conversation is genuinely an interactive, dynamic, mutual event where you both are both consuming and creating content. One person creates a topic out of recent memories or recites a joke, the other person hears it, and enjoys it. This is an act of consumption. It's not wrong or bad or harmful or blameworthy. It's the other end of creation, a necessary part of it.
In your ideal world, where we have people endlessly creating, who would consume what they create? We need both. We need platforms to share our creations, and to consume the creations of others. Real life has been a neglected platform for this, especially for countless lonely people who have no one to interact with.
I wrote an article[0] on Tiny Neighborhoods (aka “Cohousing”) that starts with:
> “I often wonder if the standard approach to housing is the best we can do. About 70% of Americans live in a suburb, which means that this design pattern affects our lives – where we shop, how we eat, who we know – more than any other part of modern life.”
We have been so uncritical of the set of ideas that make suburbia—single family homes, one car per adult, large private yards—even though these play a big role in how people act.
Some people want to address loneliness by making incremental changes. But if the statistics are right and nearly everyone is somewhat lonely, we should expect that the required adjustments feel “drastic” compared to the current norm.
People would be less lonely if they could live in a community of 15-20 families with (1) shared space and (2) shared expectations for working together on their shared space.
I posted on another subthread but I think this is largely an excuse. If you live in a typical suburb you have 15-20 families on your street. You can easily walk next door and chat or just say hello when you see someone outside. It takes initiative, which is the key thing that's missing. You either hide in your house or you get out and be sociable.
> You can easily walk next door and chat or just say hello when you see someone outside.
I have no problem with socialization and I have an unusually-active social life for a thirty-eight year old married man with three kids, so I clearly don't lack initiative.
With that being said, all of my neighbors are either elderly, shut-ins, or just don't want to be bothered; even the ones with kids.
My wife & I helped organize a Block Party last year and I'm fairly certain it resulted in 0 new friendships for any of the attendees.
What's the solution here? Friendships need to have mutual interest, no?
I think it's a circular problem. Like, my kids don't go outside much because there are no other kids outside to play with.
There's no question that there are 15-20 families within 300 yards of my house. But that group of people absolutely does not have a sense of shared anything but the road.
And the fact is that this is true of the supermajority of suburban streets in the United States.
I don't disagree but 30 years ago the people in those kinds of neighborhoods did get out and talk to each other, did organize cookouts and other gatherings, and in general were sociable neighbors. The people changed.
The greed of wall street and the powers that be bubbles down. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with property values and insurance and strict HOA regs. The purpose of housing in the USA has nothing to do with families or people, it is an investment for growing wealth, and nothing more. If you treat a house like a home, you are negatively affecting your property value and net worth (and your neighbors.)
the noise and unseemliness of cookouts and other gatherings negatively affects property value. That's the sort of thing you see in scary bad neighborhoods on TV. Just drive 45 minutes to the strip mall 6 miles away and gather at one of the corporate chain establishments.
I live in a completely different city, a post-soviet one, with dense streets, 9-storey apartment buildings. But still it's hard to socialize. It's the same both in the center, and on the fringe with large micro-districts, where the density is the same, but people are less in haste, and there are less strangers. Same way, people are avoidant.
Like in subway you pretend that others don't exist, and it's hard to get closer with people. It can take months or years to start saying hello to a kiosk salesman you recognize. It's hard to get past by hello with the house neighbors. If you make steps forward, people are unease. Sometimes others are too quick with their steps, you get unease.
The most compelling theory I know is that you need to meet people occasionally, without intention, to deepen the relationships. If all your communication with someone is intentional, I guess, this feels awkward for both sides. I can confirm this from experience: living in a 80K town, I'd walk down the main street to the little shopping mall with a local supermarket for groceries, and would meet people I knew, or friends, and sometimes we'd go walking by the streets, with groceries bag in my hand :) or we planned to meet in 15 minutes. Or go to each other's home. This is hard to replicate in a big city, where even if you see a friend, he/she is usually in a hurry.
Near apartment blocks, there's no porch or garden or park, and even where there is one, I don't see locals sitting there regularly. People are very cautious, even suspicious of benches, because if there's a busy street nearby, once in a year there'll be a group of noisy young people sitting late at night, or one drunkard in a year, and everyone will get pissed off and want the bench removed. (If they allow to install it at all.)
Looking at some places, I theorized that maybe there should be a place where you could sit and let's say play board games _near_ those who come in and out. And of course, it should be indoors, because winters are long and cold. But But I'm not sure of a communal place indoors either. It could become a magnet for homeless, it can be a magnet for just the slacker drinking old men, and repel the rest of people. I've seen too many communities become place repulsive for "normies". Maintenance is a big question too.
Something I've noticed with me and other gen-Zers is that meeting with friends or strangers over Discord VoIP is a great way to socialize. It's missing some of the social benefits of in-person meetups, but it's very low-commitment (just hope on a call) and it's much easier to find others who share your interests.
I built an art practice after volunteering on Burning Man projects for a few years. I’m now a competent art fabricator and engineer in carpentry, lighting, electronics, and power systems. It’s fun, and it keeps me connected to lots of different communities. You meet a lot of people who like to get together and nerd out, host parties, and make cool things.
When people talk about the loneliness epidemic, I realize how lucky I am to be in community with people who want to get together to do cool things just for fun. I know these kinds of art communities also exist in places outside the Bay Area, and it seems like a good model for creating excuses for people to gather anywhere.
“Get a hobby and find the others” seems like its too simple to be the answer here, but that’s what it is for me.
Anecdote: I had a friend in SF. He and I would hang out once in a while, and I always looked forward to these hangouts (we'd meet up for coffee, or go for a walk, hang out at Dolores Park, etc.). He is gay, I'm not. His perspective on things was often quite different than mine and I found that interesting. I got married, he stayed single. Even after marriage we would still hang out (though not as often as before). Then we had a child, which sucked all spare time out of my life; but even then we hung out once in a while. Then one winter there was cold/flu/COVID going around. We planned on hanging out and I unfortunately bailed on him at the last moment. This happened 2 more times. Then that bout of illnesses passed and I reached out to him to hang out again. But this time he seemed cold and distant. So I dropped it. And I didn't see him again for almost 3 years.
Then one day I ran into him while walking through Dolores Park. He didn't see me, but I hesitated and still hollered out at him, for old times' sake. He responded and walked over. We chatted a little, I gave him a parting hug and we agreed to hang out again.
A couple of weeks later we managed to hang out again. What I gathered from our meeting was that he had been miffed at what he thought was me blowing him off; and I, when I felt he was cold and distant, had misread his grief at losing his cat. We both misread each other and wasted 3 years.
Moral of the story that I took away from it was: be more forgiving. Friendships are worth the extra effort.
Since it's a societal problem, but solved on the microlevel of one person at a time, it seems the way to have a broader effect is to show the value of having connection with other people over the value of not.
Overcome any addictions (scrolling, gaming, etc.) that stand in the way would be easier if the goal was clear.
Overcoming attitudes and defensive beliefs (too many cliques, they won't talk to me...) go away when you can either recall a time when you had friends or know others who do.
Convince people it's better (in their own value system) to be social, have friends of all kinds, and let them know their value and meaning increase by being a friend, I think you'd have a hard time stopping people from becoming social.
Church used to hold more sway with people in forming communities. When at its best, it provides a safe place for strengthening relationships, celebrating the community's successes and mourning with the time calls for it. If you are lonely, try a church regardless of your spiritual beliefs. You are always welcome at mine!
Having a family solves this issue nicely. I have a wife and five kids, and none of us are lonely because we have each other. It's one of the choices I made in life that I am most grateful for.
There's also a 50% chance he will not have that company at some point in his life, and will become part of the loneliness epidemic, which for some reason he's not taking into account.
I was the head of the men's group for my town's Newcomers Club and when it comes to having a blueprint for organizing a small, quick gathering I cannot say enough about Nick Gray's [0] book The Two Hour Cocktail Party [1]
It has tons of small but useful tips:
- host it Monday or Tuesday from 7-9pm. People are usually free those nights and make sure it ends at 9pm for the folks who have to wake up early
- don't send an evite with "0 of 60 guest have responded". Start by having your core group accept and then send the invite directly to each new person
- have name tags. but make sure YOU fill out the name tags or you will have "Batman" and "Superman" at your party
- introduce people and have "get to know you games"
Now, I'm sure someone will say "this is so formulaic and doesn't feel natural!". That's kind of the point. You need to give folks some structure to be able to interact. The name tags for example remove the "oh, I met this person before but I can't remember their name so I just won't talk to them" etc.
In a general sense, I think two things about this suggestion are universally useful in solving the epidemic: structured activities with clear expectations, and people who take the initiative to design and execute them.
For those people who I'm personally trying to reach, those who sit at home alone all day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back, who desperately want to interact with people but don't know how to begin, they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.
> they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.
You hit the nail on the head with the above.
It's why things like square dancing where so popular back in the day.
It gave men and women an easy to learn, simple to follow set of rules for interacting with the opposite sex with as little ambiguity as possible. e.g someone was literally calling out what to do next so you could enjoy the moment rather than thinking "oh no, I'm not sure what to do next!"
I've not looked at the research associated with the Friendship Bench [1] or UK Men's Sheds [2] -- evaluations or data associated with the model's development -- but I would be surprised if either relied only on individual action. Meaning, the resource is there but participation relies heavily or solely on an individual taking affirmative action to join.
I agree with others that individual initiative is important for connections to be made, but I struggle with imagining how people find out about what the opportunities are. Certainly, there's been a ton of work on social isolation, community connections, whatever you call it, and at some point I need to dive in.
This space needs a lot of investment as well as evaluation of initiatives. I worked in nonprofit land in the US for years and from my limited view of the landscape, way more work is needed to determine what works and fund that and not fund efforts that take no initiative to show their effectiveness.
Sports. CrossFit and similar social sports have been healthy for me and for many others, and I think the community is at least equal to the exercise in improving people's lives.
Not saying this is the only way, but it made a big difference for me and my friends. I realize the physical challenges are artificial, but so is an Advent of Code puzzle when you already have a day job. Hard things are worth doing because they're hard, and they're even better when done together with those you love.
I’ve always been someone who likes to go to local coffee shops, shops, and walks around the neighborhood. While I’ve met a few friendly employees who learn my name and say hi to me, in general I’ve found customers and people in general aren’t super approachable. They’re usually there as a part of an existing group of friends, or are focused on their work.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to meet people in this situation, but it is difficult to break the ice. Especially if your social skills are rusty.
On a larger scale, I think most people’s budget for anonymous social interaction is consumed through social media, where they scroll past strangers arguing and let’s be honest, mostly vitriolic comments. So in the real world, they don’t want to deal with anonymous strangers and intently focus on their own friendships.
Groups are a good way to bridge this gap, but the groups that are easier to host aren’t always accessible to everyone. And they require a lot of time and ideally strong social skills to run effectively.
I’ve thought about starting a campaign to make socializing with people in person more of a common practice again, but I’m honestly not sure how to convince enough people
Affordable third places[0] where people can impromptu join and serendipitously meet friendly faces repeatedly. All of my strong friendships were from exactly this at either skateparks, college dorm common area, or run clubs. Churches had this figured out for millenia
it seems like a lot of locales that would have been third places in the past have been neutered because the people go there and then immediately put up walls. coffeeshops have become ad-hoc offices where people will sit there with a laptop and give off "leave me alone, i'm working".
people need to find a way to sit in a third space without pulling up a screen or a book that immediately re-isolates you.
also: don't underestimate the subtle effect of architecture and seating arrangements here. a coffee shop is filled with lots of little two-seat tables that intentionally isolate. for contrast, think about local pubs/bars -- there's one big central seating arrangement where evertybody is facing the bartender. the bartender is naturally placed in a position that makes them serve as a conversational mediator that can facilitate connections between then people hanging out on the periphery.
Anyone suffering in the loneliness epidemic should have a copy of The Great Good Place, by Ray Oldenburg. The entire point is that you should be putting yourself into socially active areas in your community.
This includes: a church, a local pub or coffee shop with regulars (ideally walking distance from where you live), a rec sports/game league or club.
Knowing this, I've perused it in my life and it seems very effective. I'm a regular at a Trivia Night one night per week (I don't go every week, but enough to know both the bartender and host by name). I'm a regular at a bar three blocks away from where I live, even if I consume only one non-alcoholic beverage and one alcoholic beverage per visit (a couple night a week), that leaves me plenty of time to chat with my neighbors. I'm a member of a local golf club (a very cheap municipal course), and play there every other week, and after a couple years have very good relationships with many of the other members even if we don't interact much outside of the club. At my last apartment, I was a regular at the coffee shop enough to know multiple baristas by name, it wasn't exactly a third place situation, but it was getting close before I moved. I'm not religious, but I'm very familiar with academic institutions and open lecture series that I used tot attend in grad school.
I do this intentionally. My partner had never been a regular at a bar before, and she really, really enjoys it now even though she doesn't really drink. When she joins me, she will maybe consume one-half of a light beer. You don't have to be an alcoholic to be a regular, this is a major point that Oldenburg discusses when he contrasts German-style drinking culture with English-style drinking culture.
There are, of course, multiple causes for loneliness. We can't fix them all with one clear action. Here are the main five, in my view:
First, social media. It's too easy to temporarily forget about your loneliness by staying home and doomscrolling or watching TV.
Second, increased mobility. People move around the whole continent now for work, removing them from their closest and oldest social connections.
Third, God is dead. Churches as community centers are dying out. Young people don't trust them anymore, because they don't believe in God, and because churches had many scandals. Secular community centers are very rare and struggle with funding.
Fourth, work is more stressful now. There used to be more time to socialize, but in our quest for productivity, work became denser with fewer idle times.
Fifth, fewer people want to have kids. Much has been written about this.
Now what can we do at societal scale? First of all, study the phenomenon more closely. Who is lonely? Who isn't? Which interventions work? Which cultural factors are important?
At your local scale, you can just call or meet a friend.
> Fourth, work is more stressful now. There used to be more time to socialize, but in our quest for productivity, work became denser with fewer idle times
The we here is not most people.
The quest for higher productivity is not something people really care about.
Make a social app whose goal is to get people off their phone as quickly as possible. There used to be a slew of apps where you a press a button to indicate "I'm bored/free, who wants to hang out?" and then you get matched with your contact list and anyone else who pressed the button at the same time. But for whatever reason they all flamed out and died.
I think the solution is for the app to advertise public social events where people can make connections and exchange contact information in person.
Allowing random people to message each other without meeting in person is a mistake. The nonverbal cues people get from in person interactions are helpful for discovering shared interested and personality compatibility.
one issue is that if you leave it to the free market, you will just get more issues. for monopolies, it's more profitable to keep someone unhealthy (and depressed) than it is to make someone healthy once forever.
Privacy reasons. You don’t want a VC funded startup to know your contact list and your location (because hanging out in real life requires physical proximity).
Personally I’m living with a partner (only 50% of the time for now), have only two social activities per month outside work in average and some small talk at work. I don’t need more and have no intention to volunteer, join church or anything like that just for the social aspect. I guess the big problem is the (growing?) minority having close to no social experiences.
A young woman explained to me the other week what you're doing now. She said it's become a meme called Bean Soup. I'm grateful for all the friends I've made since I starting doing my signs. Genuinely fulfilling friendships, for the first time in my life.
Shared stressors are what bring people together. Communities form when a group of people all have the same problem. Go around egging peoples homes in your neighbourhood, and keep doing it. By the time your neighbours finally catch you they will all have gotten to know and appreciate one another better. They will have formed a communtiy identity.
Ritual, purpose and community are what's required to build a group.
I cured my own loneliness episode by joining a local running group. It provides the same kind of thing as church. Ritual, we meet every week and there's a few different groups. Purpose, it doesn't feel useless to be improving your fitness level. And community comes when you suffer through a run with others.
Showing up regularly means you start to integrate people into your lives as you know when they skip a week for a vacation or something.
I went from living in my town and not knowing anyone for 17 years to having 20+ friends or people I can say hello to and have a chat.
Just find a local running group, or start one. You want the "meet at Starbucks at 6:30 on Tuesday" ones. Show up and keep showing up and you'll make friends. It's impossible to be on your phone when you run and there's always something running related to keep the conversation going.
Mostly yes, the group stays together. We run road or trail not track. No one is really serious about pace and time, or if you are you treat group runs as social time and do your own thing later.
One group just meets at the start, people go off and do their own thing and then come back to the start for coffee at a cafe. That way everyone from walkers to people doing a long run can all hang out afterwards but not actually run together.
The best are trail runs with 8-10 people, you end up walking the hills and take a short break every 5-10 minutes so you can chat with almost everyone over the hour you're out there.
No one is asking for this advice, but I'm sharing it anyways.
My #1 top priority this year is _social health_. I'm taking it into my own hands. Mostly just continuing things I'm already doing with tremendous payoff. My measurable result is going to be throwing my own birthday party in fall. I've never done that before, I've never had enough friends in my city!
No one group or app is going to come save you from loneliness. You have to get up, go outside, and find people.
0. Say yes to everything, at least if you're new in town. Don't care how scared you are of X social situation. "Do it scared" - @jxnl
1. I am part of my community's swing dancing scene. I take classes, go to social dances, I _show up_ even when I don't feel like it. People recognize me now, know my name, etc. I'm also a regular at my gym. Find a place and be a regular face there. (_how did I become a swing dancer? I got invited, and my social policy prevented me from saying no!_)
2. If I have no social plans for a week I do a timeleft dinner (dinner with 5 strangers). Always have something on the books. I call this my "social workout". If I vibe with anyone I ask if they want to grab ramen the following weekend. Leads me to point #3..
3. Initiate plans. Everyone is waiting for that text "hey, want to go do x with me?". Be that person. I have an almost 100% enthusiastic response rate to asking people to do literally anything. Go on a random walk? Go to costco? Go checkout ramen or pizza spot? You don't have to think of anything special. Whatever you're already doing.. ask someone to come with! Soon they start inviting you to do random stuff.
4. (experimental) I don't drink, which does curtail my social opportunities. I'm considering updating my drinking policy this year. My hypothesis is that the benefits of having a strong community out-weigh the health benefits of abstinence.
> 4. (experimental) I don't drink, which does curtail my social opportunities. I'm considering updating my drinking policy this year. My hypothesis is that the benefits of having a strong community out-weigh the health benefits of abstinence.
This is a very mature, balanced take. If I may advise: Try some experiments on yourself. You already know how you feel and how you socialise without drinking. Try drinking various amounts in different social settings. How does it feel? Do you like yourself and your life more before? Then go back. Else, continue experimenting until you find a sweet spot.
Spending time in parts of Latin America or western Europe or east Asia and then coming back to the US, you can see a lot of ways in which we've built loneliness into the fabric of US culture.
It goes beyond car culture. It's probably illegal to build a cafe within walking distance of your neighborhood or into the first floor of your apartment complex.
Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.
I can attest both LatAm and Europe are quickly turning the same way. At least in the bigger cities. Take public transport and 70% are frying their brains with their phones on algorithmic timelines, dumb mobile games, or worse. Women even more. You go to a bar and try to start a conversation and people look at you like you are a creep or a scammer. I've heard this happens to Gen Z, too.
Public transport was never a place where you start conversation with a stranger. Nor even meant to be that space. I genuinely do not understand why would you pick public transport as a place where you would expect people to socialize.
And yes, I was using public transport before cell phones. And yes, women are using public transport more then men, always were, because if the family have only one car, man is typically the one using it.
As someone who was a libertarian as a child, I assure you the idea of relaxing regulations is quite unpopular.
Lots of factors cause this. Obviously established businesses hate competition. There seems to be a tendency for politicians to make more laws as a bandaid rather than remove old(but this isnt universally true). And finally and probably most importantly, people like the status quo. Change is scary.
Also I live in the suburbs and we have a coffee shop within 2 minutes walking. I just have a hard time paying $4 for a coffee to meet people when most people are on their laptops anyway.
My friends come from sports clubs, parties, and the parents of my kids via birthday parties.
> Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.
It's so strange how this works. They go, sometimes repeatedly, to enjoy these rather basic things, but behave as though they're visiting a quaint Disneyland of sorts and as though there could be no lessons they could take away and apply toward a vision of their own community...
americans are too terrified of somebody getting something for free to ever tolerate that. it's okay in other countries, because other countries are deserving of charity, and the americans who travel to them have implicitly passed the wealth test by affording to travel there.
but back home in america, any nice thing in a public space might be an un-earned benefit to an american citizen who is slightly less rich. and we can't have that. if an American wants an amenity, they sould pay for it. parks, benches, pathways, any sort of gathering space, it all can't be had because it might attract poor people.
> or into the first floor of your apartment complex.
I wouldn't trust a cafe built into an apartment complex. I'd expect it to be low-quality, over-priced food placed specifically to try and make a quick buck off people who don't know any better or who physically can't get somewhere better.
You're right that it goes beyond car culture (and zoning laws are part of car culture), but I think it also goes beyond zoning laws. A lack of a social contract between people (individually) and businesses these days is probably involved, too. All these things are interrelated.
You're "literally surrounded" by cafes built into the first floor of your apartment complex? Because that's what I was very clearly talking about. Not shops within walking distance.
(I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious.")
Where do you live that this is so bizarre? Multi story buildings with retail space on the bottom and residential space at the top are very common in cities.
> I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious."
What’s the point of this? This is just needlessly rude.
There's a limit to the convenience factor. Fast food used to be cheap because it was faster than real food. Now it's expensive, and less real than it was to start with. A hip no-name cafe owned by a huge conglomerate charging $17 for a microwaved sandwich or something is objectively a bad deal.
Ensuring you never have to leave the comfort of your apartment complex is also of questionable relevance to solving loneliness/getting people to meet each other.
> -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools.
Did you accidentally paste part of a different comment or something?
I've lived in places that had restaurants on the ground floor of the building and they were the same prices as anywhere else. I'm actually surprised you find this unrealistic since it's so common in Australian cities. It's pretty much standard to have retail on ground and apartments above.
This is common in American cities, too. And European cities I’ve visited. And probably most cities that I haven’t visited.
When I visited Tokyo one really jarring thing was to realize that restaurants and cafes and such were often on the 2nd or 3rd floor. It’s so dense and so high-rise, in some areas at least, that these “ground floor” shops are also pushed upwards and inhabit the bottom 2-3 floors instead of just the ground floor.
Why is that odd? Lots of apartment buildings in big cities have the first floor (or 2) for retail. Some apartments / condos have a whole mall downstairs.
I have been working on a theoretical framework regarding these topics lately, and I believe this isolation is a structural phenomenon rather than an individual failure.
Until around 80s to 90s, when we say “that album is really good”, we shared plenty of experiences along. Such as, looking up for release news, getting to the record store, purchasing, and so on.
People listened to the full tracks in that album again and again.
Nowadays, the same sentence “that album is really good” carries far more less than before. Algorithms just bring tracks to us, we buy albums by a click.
The density of shared experience itself has been degraded, and more effort is required for us to understand each other.
I’ve named this phenomena as “Experiential Thinning”.
The experiential substance to get to know each other is getting scarce.
It's a twofold problem, I believe. People are lonely because of fear of rejection and also actively avoid new people out of caution and high standards.
So two people who are otherwise lonely will make no effort to connect.
I think social networks have done a tremendous amount of damage to our collective psyche. Because on the web, you can single-click permanently block someone and never see them again. If you are admin of a group this person is in, you can also ban this person and prevent them from interacting with members of the group (in the group, that is, you cannot control private messages, but by banning someone from a community you are effectively isolating them), and I think we haven't considered how much power we are giving to random Reddit mods due to this.
I do believe high standards are behind a lot of the dating issues. Dating pools are so large that people hold out for the right combination of the things they find desirable--except they're never going to find that because they don't have exactly the right combination to attract that "perfect" match.
I can't help but think that in 1910, both the concept of "fear of rejection" and "high standards" would have made no sense to people at the time. Yet I would agree that they are valid concepts today. We have to explore why these two concepts exist and why they did not exist in 1910. It seems valid to call them side effects of something bigger, what the bigger is I don't know. I don't see how society can address these two issues without addressing the other issues that lead to the existence of these.
I'm not sure why you believe that "high standards" and "fear of rejection" didn't exist a hundred years ago. Think Gatsby, from the Great Gatsby (published 1925): dude longed for human connection (hence throwing massive parties), but was terrified of being outed as not belonging to the social strata he found himself in. That's fear of rejection. People being to good for others is basis of the class system, and that predates written history.
Reddit doesn't do hard IP bans, but they do a lot of fingerprinting to link alt accounts together and will ban them all. You can get around it but you have to be pretty careful, wiping cookies on all your devices, signing up from a new IP, never logging in to the old accounts again, etc.
There is a gap between thinking and action. I think the social media and gaming and online stimulions currently designed to bombard and drain your thinking brain, leaves nothing for the action you and your body needs to take. Your brain only has so much chemistry to trigger neural activation and we are blowing it on mental stress to the point where the body doesn’t have any more mental energy to tackle real world stress or handle real world emotions.
Try an A/B test. Do days with zero screen stimuli - no TV, no phones, no online interaction. Go into the world to a cafe, or a common area with people and do stuff. See how you feel and what you feel up to. Vacations might be good and relaxing because you disconnect. Maybe do it without paying for it.
Old geezer take: If you're referring to smart phones - social engagement in the US was already headed down 5 decades before those were invented. I blame TV.
It cannot be solved, at least not in the way I think people want it to be.
We’re lonely because we are wired to avoid rejection and uncomfortable social situations, and because technology has given us hundreds of alternatives to sitting in the mess of connecting with people.
You can only solve it in your own life - by being courageous and spending more of your time in the physical world than in the digital one, willing to gro through the shitty feelings that come with being a human trying to meet other humans.
You cannot solve it for other people. There’s no sexy solution here. Meetup.com or whatever dating app or tech platform or not for profit will not fix it, because it takes individuals choosing the hard path and that will never happen en masse.
Is there a loneliness epidemic? Or is this viewing history through rose colored glasses?
Is the shift from how society used to work to how society has come to work real or just a grammatically correct statement?
Statistics are biased by those who compute them. Have we asked everyone or inferred and p-hacked up data points?
The single salary family is largely a myth. A relatively small percentage of the population ever achieved that. Is the same true for loneliness? Is it a bigger problem now than it has been?
Is this like in medicine where we think ADHD is up, cancer is up... it's an epidemic! When in reality as a percent of society things are normal, we just had no idea before how prevalent those things were before we measured.
- Get rid of AI chat bots, limit social media use to federated platforms, get out more.
- Encourage cities to build spaces for people rather than cars where folks can meet up without the pressure to buy things and leave. Spaces for walking and hanging out.
It’s all about fostering community again, and that’s more than just shared calendars and town events.
It’s “third places” where folks can just hang out and work, play, share, and commiserate without having to pay money to do so.
It’s bringing back establishments that promote lingering and loitering, like food halls or coffee shops, rather than chasing out folks.
It’s about building community centers inside apartment complexes, more public green space, more venues and forums.
Giving people space that doesn’t require a form of payment is the best approach, because humans will take advantage of what’s out there naturally. Sure, structure helps, but space is the issue at present I believe.
Is it? There are a number of third places around here that sit effectively vacant. The few who are passionate about seeing those spaces thrive will tell you that the problem is getting anyone to come, not finding space to host them.
I live in a major metro renowned for its green space, but we absolutely still have a space issue.
* Outdoor spaces close at dusk for the most part, restricting sociability in the winter months when it’s darker, sooner, and longer.
* Winters are cold, making outdoor spaces less usable during those months
* Indoor spaces are exclusively fee-oriented. Coffee shops evict customers after an hour or so, movie theaters can run upwards of $30 a person for a ticket and a snack, malls eject loiterers, gallerias harass anyone clearly not there to do business.
* The few places NOT fee-oriented - like public libraries - are either saturated with use and lack capacity for more folks, or are under-used due to requiring a car to access them.
* Youth in particular lack third-spaces to explore within, fee or no-fee. One roller rink serves the entire north portion of the city and isn’t accessible except by car. Ice rinks are co-opted by hockey teams year-round. Bowling alleys can run $15/person/game, at times, and dwindle in number. Schools are closed except to those involved in extracurriculars after-hours. Arcades are non-existent, the sole skate park closes at dusk, and cops or security harass any group of teenagers they find, especially in parks or public spaces. It’s bad enough as an adult with a car, it’s downright hostile to anyone young or unable to drive.
* The few genuine community centers that do exist, generally operate solely in rich towns that restrict access to citizens, or in impoverished areas and tied to specific special interest agendas for access - many of which may be good, but many more attempt to convert visitors to religions or political groups.
* Even if someone has space in their apartment to host, landlords have gotten so sleazy that parking for visitors is either non-existent or costs money to utilize, thus reducing the ability to host at all without spending more money.
But you’re right, it’s not necessarily a space issue.
It’s a money issue, in that we’ve built a society where you’re barred from enjoyment, self-discovery, or group fulfillment unless you’re spending $20 an hour or white and old enough to be invisible to cops and Karens.
It is not. While said third places obviously do need resources to operate, that has already been figured out by those passionate to make a go of having the third place. Generous donations, grants, and fundraising go a long way.
I do buy that it is somewhat of a marketing problem. I expect a lot of people don't even know they exist. I was once talking to someone who literally lives just three doors down from one of those third places and it never occurred to him that he could even go in. But he also hasn't even now that he knows he can. That's quite telling.
I can also agree that there is a bit of a bootstrapping problem. If you show up and there is only a couple of other people there, you're not likely to return. If it was full of people, that'd be more compelling.
But these third places did thrive once upon a time. The bootstrapping problem was solved. The marketing problem was solved. It all fell apart because people found other things to do. The reality is that the population at large does not see a need for third places (of the type you speak) anymore. Houses nowadays are way bigger and more comfortable than they used to be so there isn't as much feeling of pressure to get out, there are more activities going on to occupy one's time[1], of course technology has become a significant distraction, etc.
[1] For example, my grandparents' generation would have never heard of putting their children in sports. My parents' generation would take their kids to a sport about once a week. Nowadays parents are carting their kids off to sporting events every single night of the week! That doesn't leave time to occupy a third place[2].
[2] The sporting event venue is technically a third place[3], granted, but if you've been to one you'll know they aren't particularly social for the parents. They mostly just sit there watching their children (or phone, quite often), not to mention that the considerable time spent in the car travelling from far off place to far off place to get to the competition is not social at all. I don't think that is what you have in mind with respect to the greater conversation.
[3] Open to the public, free of charge. If I am wrong above and this is what you did have in mind, then it serves as another example of the space being there with no need for you to open your wallet. All you have to do is show up. But will you? I already know the answer is "No." The actual parents don't even look like they want to be there most of the time.
I have considered a "physical social network". Standing on my usual street corner and holding a sign that directs strangers to join me and whoever else shows up, for a casual chat at the local coffee place at a specific time, with a few topics for conversation listed on the sign up front. If anyone has ideas for those topics, let me know, I'm likely to do it this Sunday.
Actually I am open to the idea of an (minimalistic, non-profit) app helping solve this. What kind of app, I'm not sure, but I'm open to all ideas, including technology based ones.
I only said that because you reminded me of an idea I had, for a social experiment that tries to bring some "social media" elements into an in-person setting, to see what happens. (I do wish I could afford a camera and someone to man it, I've been told several times that I'd go viral.)
When NextDoor first came around, I recall walking down the street to help a lady move her couch down to the ground floor. She then gave me some cookies she'd baked. Fun! The notifications it sends me these days are less enjoyable so I send them to spam because unsubscribing doesn't seem to reliably work for me.
> Make a social network that is centered around people who live in a 1 kilometer radius…
Don't know if they still do, but Nextdoor required address verification via a postcard early on. I was pretty shocked at what some people in my area would post under their real names and locations.
(And well outside the realm of political nonsense. Someone posted a pic of their toddler's first poop in the potty.)
I think the power of shame has reduced significantly in recent years.
I think shame is still powerful, but in the context of Nextdoor we just don't see our neighbors very often anymore. In many cases they might as well be random people on the other side of the country. I live in a small town and I'm quite friendly with my neighbors, but I still see and talk to them relatively rarely.
When you have a toddler it's very surprising what becomes normal. We're potty-training our son and I sometimes get texts from my spouse with a picture of a poop in a bad spot and then just the word "help."
I doubt we can solve this for other people. Each person must solve it for themselves, but for most people the solution will be joining a church and attending weekly. From there, get involved with a ministry, that will lead to appreciation dinners, which will lead to getting invited to the non-religous stuff the people are involved with.
I have a fear of crowds and bums. Not where I'm paralyzed/medicated but one thing I'm trying to do is go downtown and do street photography. I wonder how do I say no to a stranger asking me for money. Or fear of getting robbed. It's not like my camera gear is that expensive but yeah. This would push me to get out there more as I've lived in the same place for 10 yrs and I haven't really explored/gone around much. Other than when I did Uber Eats, I would go all over the place. I would get wasted/drink at bars but end up with nothing end of the day, temporary day-long friends.
Funny I was at the gym yesterday, guy said hello to me, as a guy that keeps to himself usually (unless around friends) I gave him a bad look (not on purpose) and then I responded. I'll say hello next time I see him.
Yeah for me it's just fear and lack of exposure. I do make a lot of "work friends" go on walks. But yeah real friends I think I have 4 or 5 lifelong real friends. Women nothing, haven't been laid in like 12 years pretty said to say. Unfortunately it's something I value myself like "I'm a loser by not getting laid". Even though rest of my life is good, 2BR apt, sporty car, six-fig job, but yeah. It's my social awkardness, but I lift/improve myself, cutting down on weight I want abs. Idk I'm not going after women anymore either just trying to live life now, do shit, get out of debt, get out of 9-5, mental freedom.
It's funny if it's guys I'm very "charismatic" like I can be "everyone's friend" which doesn't work out due to conflicting interest. To that end it's really about taking an active interest in the other person, engaging them, asking them questions and remembering.
My thing with women is I don't get along with them like a guy (where I don't want anything from them physically). If they're not attractive then it's easier to talk to them but yeah, I guess that comes from a desperation mindset.
Hear me out. Its not just social awkwardness. You're experiencing class boundaries and do not seem to have the right mentality to bridge the gap.
First, you call homeless people bums, which sets the stage for how you see and treat them.
I'm an excellent engineer, but I was abused and impoverished as a child, homeless as a teenager. During my 20s, I started a few companies but my savings have been continually depleted taking care of family members. I don't have a sports car or a big bank account, or nice cameras. When I see a stranger or homeless person, I smile and wave. I keep cash on me so that I always have some to give out. I buy people lunch and sit on the curb eating with them and attempting to understand them. I learn the names of my local homeless folk and ingratiate myself in the community. I've moved to a few cities so I've had the opportunity to do this a few times.
I don't do this because I lack social anxiety; I sometimes have extreme agoraphobia, to the point that I have to hype myself up for hours just to go to the grocery store, and I have to wear noise-cancelling headphones to reduce the amount of stimulation. I have PTSD. I'm an extreme introvert. A hermit at times.
But what saves me is the philosophical understanding that I have a duty to the social contract. That empathy and direct aid are nonnegotiable parts of being human. I've been homeless and I know what it's like to be truly hopeless and live a life of uncertainty, fear and hunger.
You need to bridge that gap. Class-induced anxiety is real and I acknowledge that it's probably difficult, but it's not an excuse. You sound like you're in a position to change someone's life. Taking those steps might change your own life.
> I buy people lunch and sit on the curb eating with them and attempting to understand them.
I clearly don't have the same people on the street as you do. You should not be just sitting down and having lunch with people who are having daily psychotic breaks or are otherwise aggressive. You can't have a conversation with someone who is constantly riding the line of ODing. I have a regular I see who runs around in the road screaming at cars and people.
The very incomplete "down on their luck" view of homelessness is killing progress in my city.
I have lived in many metropolitan areas and have seen the gamut of homelessness. As I mentioned in a downline comment, the trick is to ignore the people who are not in a position to receive help, and actively seek those who are in such a position. I am not suggesting walking up to random homeless folk in San Francisco who are tweaking out and hanging out with them. I am not suggesting to risk your safety by approaching the first person you see. You live in your area; study it, pay attention, and over time you'll start seeing some familiar faces. This has worked for me in New Orleans, it worked for me in Texas and worked for me in California.
So I'm willing to bet that my understanding of homelessness is more nuanced/holistic than even yours. I have been homeless. Have you?
What progress do you feel is being hindered by a collective display of compassion?
It's funny there was a moment I was at a bus station, somebody asked me for money and I dumped all the coins I had in my wallet in their hand for future bus rides. And some lady comes up to me jokingly like "you handing money out? what about me".
But yeah I think I should just give the money out, I think aside from the guy at the red light that's there almost everyday when it's warm, it's rare I encounter somebody personally. Until I go into the city.
Buy someone new clothes. A sleeping bag. Utensils. A library card or bus pass. If it has to be cash, you don't have to stop at $5. I sometimes give out tens and twenties. Obviously at a place like California your altruism can be spread pretty thin; just ignore the people who are more difficult / less appreciative. Find someone who is appreciative. Get to know them and find out what is holding them back. Maybe you can't help, maybe you can. I've had people tell me I've made their day, their week, their year.
It's that thing though I'm pretty sure I was scammed by this couple at a gas station asking me for "gas money" even though they wanted cash then the lady said "your mother raised a good boy" lmao.
To me this is a gov problem not an individual problem. Yeah if someone was dying in front of me I would try to help them. But now I gotta go to a store and buy em a tent and what not? I guess I am an asshole. Also read up "do you give money to homeless" on reddit. Almost all of the answers are no.
I have to go there and face my fear. See if I do get assaulted, I'm a 6ft buff dude so I don't think so but I'm also not a trained fighter. I just hate this fear, that normal people like living in NYC deal with on a daily basis.
Getting jumped is real though, I've been jumped before by a group.
Might as well just give the $5 though and move on with my life.
Back to women, I have negative traits as demonstrated above, indecisiveness and low self-esteem/caring about what other people think of me too much.
All this stuff is stupid, "I'm a good person because it's what people think you should do" give money to a non-taxed church, politicians, etc... then the individual person not giving a dollar to a homeless person is a bad guy.
I've been fucked over plenty times, sometimes to the tune of 5 digits. Once even cost me my home, and I found myself homeless again for a while.
A good friend of mine once gave someone a ride at a gas station, and they led him to a house where another person jumped inside the car with a gun. They held him hostage, tried to force him to do fentanyl at gunpoint, and drove him around to several ATMs so he could empty out his account. They used his vehicle to sell drugs, and held him hostage in a motel room where they were also sex trafficking women. They nearly killed him, and he is lucky to be alive.
I also know others who have been jumped around here and had the shit beaten out of them. For reference, I live in a city frequently cited as a "murder capital" of the US. You have to be way more careful out here than in downtown San Francisco. As far as NYC, I imagine it's a mixed bag depending on your area. I'm not suggesting naively approaching strangers, I hope it doesn't come across that way.
You aren't an asshole if you don't buy someone a tent, I was suggesting ways to help that have more tangible impact than handing someone a $5 bill which probably just goes towards an addiction. I don't hang around Reddit, so I can't speak for the general callousness of the community, but what I'm suggesting is to go beyond the average, to do more than most would, in reverence of the fact that we're all floating on this lonely space rock together.
As far as women, all I can say is that my girlfriend would be fine with any of those traits, as long as I still maintained a level of compassion.
There is also the thought of too many people to help. Like right now there are thousands/millions of people starving is it my fault? Should I empty all of what I have to help them because I'm guilty if I don't. That's what I'm wrestling with granted what we're talking about is not the same thing. Handing somebody $5 and moving on is not that but yeah idk. I guess as a person that keeps giving shit out eg. $100K to my own family, it gets old.
But I will go out there, I'll see what happens. I need to face my fears.
I hear you. I've had ungrateful family members drive me broke. Compassion is doing the right thing, even when it's scary, or it hurts, or no one is watching, or when people around you misunderstand and demonize you, or they are just plain ungrateful and leave you holding the bag. I admire your willingness to continue grappling with it and finding your own answer.
Regarding women again, are you meeting enough of them? What's the scene like where you live? I don't know what it's like in NYC, but the social/dating scene in my current city just doesn't exist, and I'm watching some of my friends grapple with seriously heartbreaking loneliness.
I don't know what to tell them. I'm dating my high school sweetheart again, but we were broken up for several years, and many of the experiences I had with women during that time were quite traumatic. The rest of them were just not a good fit. I had completely given up on dating altogether, at least for a period of time, and only then did the love of my life find her way back to me. Despite years of extreme loneliness in new cities, I still consider myself lucky and wish I had some actionable advice I could tease from the situation. I've even experimented with building dating apps because this epidemic just scares the shit out of me.
I'm not in NYC sorry to give that impression. I was mentioning NYC as far as being densely populated, I'm in the midwest. Honestly I don't meet much women outside of work or the occasional girl I run into at a gym. I know the cliche saying "go join a club" meet girls that way. I could see that but it's also possible I like being alone too but yeah it just bothers me that my self-deemed value is whether or not I get laid.
The other problem too today is the fakeness of social media, filters on faces, photos looking like peopel go to beaches all the time/live extravagant lives.
Bars it's like a self-control issue, use drinking for courage then you get too f'd up.
In the midwest but we have a small "city" with "skyscrapers" that I wanted to go into and do photography at.
What I found after many years, is that women (people in general, really) are not attracted to people who try too hard to get attention from them. Going through great lengths tends to result in being labeled as desperate or creepy. Try just to be friendly and talk "with" them and not "to" them, almost as if you are one of them. By doing that often enough, it will feel less awkward. Practice makes perfect. And then one day you feel a click with someone. Just my few cents.
Oh you haven't gone anywhere near far enough with this.
You'll get laid the most when you adamantly pretend like you're not interested in getting laid. You actively have to act like you are "too good" for them. Play "hard to get". Learn what "negging" means.
Never, ever, show desperation for anything ever for any reason. It is the ultimate ick. Buddhists will even tell you that desire is ontologically/spiritually evil and icky.
Yeah that's the cliche saying, let them chase you or don't put on a pedestal. Idk not sure if it's because I was raised by women that I need their approval (no male figure). But I know other people who were in the same situation and aren't like me so it must be a personal choice/way you decide to overcome it.
I found it uncomfortable as a kid when I saw how my parents handled begging: ignoring it. I remember one time my father saying "that's ok". And I either say "no, sorry" or ignore.
I've heard of kids from cities being given money so they always have something to give a mugger instead of looking like you're holding out, I don't go that far but I remember it to keep perspective.
I recently made an effort to carry cash with me so I can leave tips in cash, still working on that. Would you be open to keeping singles on you to give? You can even give max of one per excursion and then decline or ignore the rest or any combination but maybe having that as a plan can help you feel comfortable. Yes you're training yourself and it's because you deserve the benefits of training.
As for non-bums hello is good, also fist bumps and nodding upwards; that stuff is cool AF and make people so damn happy.
Yeah it's funny I'll sound like I'm virtue signaling here, I donate. Food groups, NHA, stuff like that. Where I live there's usually a person at a red light waiting to "ambush" you. Same at a grocery store, soon as you exit the door solicitors going "excuse me sir".
But yeah it would be easy to just have a $5 to hand out. It's just you know how many people are there and will it stop there kind of thing. Yeah I sound like an asshole I get it. I also have sent over $100K to my own family in support and I'm -$80K in debt so it's not like I'm hoarding my money or something.
It just annoys me. But sure it'll be easier to just say "here you go" and hand out cash.
In my experience a few times people will ask for money if they see you giving someone else something, but not that often, and you can shrug through it and say that was your last dollar or something. Keep the interactions short and easy and try to carry the loose bills outside of your wallet so no one can actually see how much you have inside it?
Exactly one time after I did this, a guy asked me to send something to his venmo since I really only had a dollar. Probably my strangest interaction.
Yeah I'll probably be smart and just empty my wallet except ID and some loose cash. I just don't like it the idea someone coming up to you asking you for money and you're expected to just do it, give it to them. It's funny too as soon as they get what they want or don't get what they want, they're like f you and move on. Ahh well I just wish I didn't care. I'm too soft/care what other people think of me.
It's like points on a website "oh no I got downvoted", there's a thing as being you/not being a conformist
I think I purposefully need to get into a fight you know overcome it, like expect anyone who comes up to me to fight me
I'm gonna stop ranting but it's not like it's hard to get laid, it's just my standards are high like she's gotta be a dime or fit at least. So that means I also have to be fit/good looking which I haven't cared much before as far as good haircut/good clothes. I at least am lucky with my genetics for fitness but I also have not been as cut as I could be. But ultimately I know it's my mind that's f'd.
You don't sound like an asshole because you aren't saying bad things about the people who have the least.
It's up to you, you can just, to yourself, write down the words you'll use to write down that you'll ignore them to become more comfortable with your boundaries.
Personally I don't think handing out cash is helpful so it's not about charity it's my advice to pre-plan how you'll respond to be more comfortable than you are in reaction to these situations.
It is a quick escape though to be like "here you go" and move on but also opens you up to "that's it?" I've had that happen even when I said "I don't have cash" well I have Venmo I'm like alright... yeah I don't want to have this mindset but also can't be naive too kumbaya.
Having kids (with the right partner and good intentions as a parent) is a great way to avoid feeling lonely.
The kid(s) are tremendous source of connection. You may trade for a feeling of exhaustion, overwhelming responsibility, etc. but a lot less loneliness.
Also go a step further and join support groups for parents. Community resources where kids play and parents can hang out and chat. Connection is built through shared experiences, and parenting is an experience you can share with other parents.
Between having kids and participating in events with other parents, there will be a lot less opportunities to feel lonely.
That's only a problem for people who want to find a spouse and have kids. You're going one step further down the "how" chain.
My point had more to do with the fact that a lot of people are either undecided about kids or have decided not to have kids, and are then struggling with loneliness.
Deciding you want to start a family and prioritizing it (the why) can come before the how.
I'm no expert in dating, but generally in life I've learned that it's easier to get my wants satisfied if I am clear about them.
"I want to start a family and find a partner who also wants to have kids" is a lot less abstract than "I want to feel less lonely".
So, no, I don't think I missed a step. I just think that the best way to find a partner in parenting will depend a lot on the specific person, where they are, how old they are, what they do, etc and isn't conducive to general advice, and maybe HN is not the best place to figure it out?
I’m loving the comments here. But I confess I exoected a ‘social technology’ solution to the problem!! Like “casserole” in the UK, which connects people in a neighbourhood with others who need food and a visit. You make a casserole and take it round. I’ve not seen this in person but it seems like a great application of tech to help ward off loneliness… You could easily extend this to “dog friends” or “cat friends”, where you’re connected with someone who’d like you to visit them and bring your dog or cat for an introduction and a pat
I remember watching old American educational videos for teens from something like the 50s (on YT). They talk A LOT about how to be likable and how much work one has to put into being accepted and included. The tone is very much "if you want friends and not be excluded (and being excluded is your own moral failing) you need to work on it".
I feel people have forgotten that. Having friends isn't easy. You do actually need to put in the effort - everyone needs to put in the effort, not just "the extrovert" that "adopts" you. And not just effort, it takes *SKILLS* that you need to actively develop and maintain.
So now we have generations where no one really thought us the skills or instilled the value of "it's a YOU problem". Everyone is just waiting for someone else to do the hard work. Even more stupidly, people might be lonely, but they are also very picky and if the person isn't exactly what they are feeling at the moment they flake/don't engage. And then they are surprised they don't have a surplus of friends when they need them.
So how do we resolve this? By telling people it's their our damn problem and fault. And no, I'm not saying ignore it on a societal level, I'm saying that the public policy to fix this is to start educating people that social engagement requires effort and skills. Maybe take those old American movies as inspiration (naturally remove all the sexist and racist bullshit).
I'm starting to host bi-weekly after work soirees.
It's simple. Anyone you meet casually and get a nice vibe from - just invite them - you will see their face light up like they won a lottery...cause they did - your lottery.
Tell them that you're hosting a special gathering with interesting people you've recently met ( that way everyone starts from 0 )
bonus points: Make sure that your list is as balanced as possible with as many different types of humans ( age/gender/race/education/talent/interests ) add your weights into any criteria as you see fit, but keep in mind the more the blend the spicier the magic and the more you will grow.
If they want to bring a special friend ( great! but just say one for now )
Lubricate with some light wine/beers/alcoholic beverages (dont worry most will bring their own ) .. add some nice chill-house ambient music .. and let the magic begin.
Many large orgs have smaller chapters locally, but there are often regionally-relevant ones.
I’d start with personal passions, and work from there. It won’t really work, unless it’s something we care about.
Volunteer orgs tend to be fairly disorganized, and there’s usually a lot of lively personalities. If one seems too dysfunctional, try another. Don’t just go for one.
Also, it can take some time to get into the “inner circle.” Like any human society, trust takes time to build. We need to be willing to start small. Get to know the place. Figure out where we can make a difference.
I’ll bet that ChatGPT would be a great source of information.
Phrases like "I’d start with personal passions, and work from there" and "we need to be willing to start small" are NOT actionable, they are meaningless platitudes. Not to mention it assumes everyone has "personal passions," an the majority of people probably don't.
I didn't "just go for one." I spent like a month trying to volunteer , for anyone. I was on medical leave from work at time time so I had plenty of time to give. Nobody ever got back to me or picked up the phone. It was worse than applying for a job. I have an anxiety disorder, so even reaching out caused me massive stress and anxiety. So I caused myself distress to feel more worthless than I already felt. My heart is racing and I'm on the verge of tears just typing this up.
So I'll ask again, how does one "join a volunteer organization?"
Do you live in a metropolitan area, and if so, which? I know a number of places one can volunteer where I live, but if you are on the other side of the country, that wouldn't be much help.
Given that you have an anxiety disorder, you might look into volunteering with animal shelters--dogs are said to be calming.
Or, just walk into the vestibule of a church. In many cases there will be a bulletin board with a notice of volunteer opportunities, or a Sunday bulletin with the same. Note that this does not imply any religious commitment. Nobody's going to ask for your baptismal certificate if you're volunteering to sling hash for a dinner program.
I don't live in a metropolitan area, which is probably part of the problem. I'm not rural either.
The local animal rescues around here all ghosted me back then. I also fucking hate dogs with a passion (dirty, noisy, annoying, infuriatingly needy) but I do love cats.
I never thought about looking at a church bulletin, so thank you for that suggestion at least.
I am not the person that "ghosted" you, and don't think that I can give you what you want.
The suggestion I gave, was in good faith, but it seems that your "question" was not. I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience, but I wasn't the one that did the nasty.
>The suggestion I gave, was in good faith, but it seems that your "question" was not.
My question was absolutely asked in good faith, not sure why you think it wasn't? You, yourself, made it sound very easy. I was looking for advice since you've made it sound like you've easily succeeded in volunteering and I wasn't able to. I was hoping, at the very least, for you to share how you got started.
And yeah, it's kinda offensive to get "draw the rest of the damn owl[ed]"[1] when you put yourself out there to genuinely ask for help.
And I still am asking for advice if you're willing to share. I would still love to volunteer.
Maybe our built environment shouldn't consist solely of isolated houses in isolated gated communities where we drive our kids and sit in isolated cars in the school dropoff/pickup lines.
This may just be me, but I hold the opposite view.
When I lived in a rural area with a few acres of property, I was much more social and engaged with my community.
Now I live at the edge of the city in a medium-high density townhouse area with no private outdoor space. Since I can never really get away from people and be alone, I also have no desire to go out and do things and engage with the community.
I think the variability is nice. If I can get home, relax, not have people around, have some private outdoor space, then I can recharge and have the energy to engage more.
You can have a small town with a nice downtown or park where people meet and hang out. You can have walkable neighborhoods without giant apartment buildings. Neighborhoods where kids ride around on bikes.
That's different than a suburb full of isolated gated communities where each house technically has a yard but you still don't have any privacy and the HOA tells you what color to paint your house and fines you for your grass not being perfectly green all year.
You can also have dense areas without green space, full of cars and noise, and without nice places to hang out with friends.
Cities can and often are poorly designed for humans.
Building human-centric places isn’t only about density. Variety of density is good. Places where people can walk, ride bikes, and hang out with friends and family are good.
Congested 6-lane roads aren’t good, whether in cities, suburbs, or rural areas in between.
Yeah so you can give them all that, but if it's mainly inhabited by single "professionals" and couples with dogs, it can still be antisocial. At least that was my experience in grad school housing and living after in college towns. We had walking/biking centric layout, communal gyms and hot tubs, everything.
I'm not lonely, but occasionally wish I had some meaningful friendships. Most people who want to be my "friend" just want something from me -- a job, help them move, buy their dumb products, watch their kids, drive them to the airport, whatever else they want to dump on me.
I get that comes with friendships, but people go from zero to super favors in 2.1 seconds these days. Seems too burdensome, so I typically tell people to F off -- easier that way.
My wife will drag me to some social events. I have a hard time relating to any of the guys. The ones I meet are all obsessed with sports and entertainment. Did you watch the game? No, oh...well; did you go skiing last week? No, Oh...I gotta go.
I like a good football game, but the world is burning; I can't pretend it isn't. I'd like to help but don't know how. I just work on building my business to have enough resources to possibly make a slight difference; maybe I'll die without actually doing so, and it would have been better to just distract myself until I die, but my brain doesn't work that way.
Social media is just one big psyops. I liked X until major players started taking over and now it seems like Claude owns X as everyone just posts how Claude Code just vibe coding them 4,000 bitcoins in 24 hours. Quit all social media because it's just distorted.
To be honest, gave up on being friends with anyone about 10 years ago.
Damn. There are some things here that resonated with me and some that don’t. I had a time of my life where I just felt like I didn’t vibe with my ex’s friends. We’d go to parties and these people would feel so shallow. Having grown up poor around a bunch of perpetually rich people made me feel different.
You also said that the world is burning, and it is to some defree. But it’s also filled with so many kind and amazing people making an impact where they are. Sure, maybe the gal serving coffee isn’t fixing climate change but she’s making the person she’s talking to that day feel special. That’s important too. Same goes down the soccer coach who’s helping kids find passion in something.
The world is full of contradictions and imperfections. It’s also full of kindness and generosity everywhere you go, if you’re looking for it. If you’re looking for ways to validate that the world is burning, your gonna find those too
Social media blows, I hate it too. I’m not entirely sure society is moving in the right direction, but I’m just an atom in the ocean. I can affect those around me and hopefully those people affect more. My hope is that my joy spreads through other people, and if it doesn’t, that’s ok too.
I’m bummed you’re hurting, and with a job and a million responsibilities it can be hard to lift your gaze to see the forest for the trees
Thanks for the reply. I've accepted reality, so not really hurting.
I've got a wife, kids, 2 dogs, and more work than I can possibly do. I have plenty to do, but I lean toward Nihilistic thoughts like what is the point of all of this. I'm religious and have faith that my life has meaning, but sometimes it's hard to see it.
Personally, I've found the most effective way to cope is just to accept things as they are and keep myself busy. The world is constantly saying that happiness is right around the corner if you are just smarter, richer, or better looking. Realizing that it's not true and finding contentment is the way to go.
Your experiences are fine but don't completely give up and focus on what you can control. Like you can post your thoughts on social media. And don't expect views. Just just write for your own sake.
That would keep you busy and leave room for serendipity.
My sense: human relationships come from repeated interaction over time. This is why college is easy for friendships and suburbs aren't.
The solution is very different for someone who is within walking distance of a neighborhood coffee shop vs someone who isn't.
It seems like there's 3 levels of solutions recommended here:
1) Individual: join recurring activities, volunteer, join communities, get a dog, work on yourself, sports/physical hobbies
2) Founder: Create third spaces, host events, or just create and initiate activities that bring people together
3) Policy: Urban design reform, third spaces. Make it easier for more third spaces to exist and more walkable neighborhoods.
It's like capex vs opex. A lot of the fixes recommended here are very high ongoing daily effort for individuals. But this is such an important thing for humans! So it would be better if the built environment was better, and human interaction was easier and lower effort to get for more people. More walkable high trust places, more third places.
Should there be lots more affinity based master planned communities? Probably yes. More in person theme parks and activity places? Probably yes. More games like Pokemon Go? Probably yes. Better walkability in existing cities? Probably yes. etc.
tl;dr at an individual level, these suggestions are good, but the fact that so much individual level effort is needed imo points to more of a need for macro solutions so it's lower energy for most people to have nice local walkable communities and friends (like people have in university, cities post-university, and in retirement homes)
Everyone always gets the causality reversed. Social media didn't cause the epidemic, it filled a niche to help cure the epidemic. People were lonely long before the internet arrived, the internet just made it easier for those lonely people to connect to each other. And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.
In other words, the problem is structural. Moving to a new city where you don't know anyone, only work with people for a few years, and where there are no longer institutions like the church, how is anybody supposed to meet anyone? Meetups? Half the people can't even afford a car.
There is no solution other than meeting a lifelong partner.
It used to be that you knocked on the door of the residence beside you.
> And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.
This is the crux of it. Your neighbours weren't ever likely to be your soulmate, but that is who was there to befriend, so you did. But now you don't have to. And since they now feel the same way, they aren't putting in the effort either.
There is also the problem of familiarity. It's awkward.
Traditionally you'd live around the same people your whole life. Invariably they'd feel like family and it wouldn't feel awkward to get together. But that's not how modernity works. People move to different communities all the time, so it becomes difficult to build familial friendships with others.
That's the essential problem. The internet allows us to stay in touch with people who feel like family. That's what we want to do psychologically. If all those people were in the same city there'd be a lot more socializing.
> People move to different communities all the time
Although now considerably less than in the past. Peak mobility occurred during the mid-1900s. Most, and increasingly more as time marches forward, will stay close to where they were born.
> That's the essential problem.
It is a problem for individuals in that situation, but does it explain a population-wide epidemic when most never actually leave their familial roots?
> If all those people were in the same city there'd be a lot more socializing.
I am among those who still live near where I was born and have known a lot of the people my whole life. Color me skeptical. Nobody has the time to. They're at work all day and when that's done it is into the car to drive their kid to who knows where to play in a sporting match thinking they are going to become a professional some day.
It was a little different 15-20 years ago. You used to be able to go down to the community centre on a Saturday night and the whole town would be there, ready to mingle. But it turns out the draw was really alcohol, and when police started cracking down on drunk drivers and health concern messaging started to gain attention, it all dwindled pretty quickly.
It's all about priorities, and socializing just isn't a priority for most people anymore. There are so many other things also vying for attention.
I agree. When I say people lived in close proximity I don't mean 'across the city' or 'the next town over', I mean that traditionally you were actually in the same physical location where socializing required essentially no travel, and you'd often have to exist in communal spaces.
These days even people who are nearby are still far. That 30 minute drive both ways along with coordinating a time is a lot of extra work to add onto an already busy life.
But if these same people lived on your street you could just pop over for a quick coffee. As is what actually happens. My wife and I have socialized with new friends in our neighborhood more than close family lately because they're right around us. The kicker is we built the friendships through our kids school and repeated proximity rather than artificially.
Yes of course people were lonely before the internet and social media, but that pushed them to go outside and solve the problem. Now they do the digital equivalent of taking drugs to make the problem go away.
I think you're oversimplifying and overgeneralizing. Plenty of people remained lonely back in the day, plenty of people socialize now. It's just that now they have the option to socialize through the internet.
Prior to the internet people were staying home and watching TV. The dynamic is much longer lived than you think. Check out the book 'Bowling Alone'.
The wording sounds like this is a problem or even something to solve. Why?
But let's start with the basics:
- Why are these people not countable? Shoudn't we not at least just be able to get a good statistical number on this? We do the same for all people on (and off) this planet.
- Let's assume we have a number: how to we know that they sit and are alone and every day? This sounds to me like an overspecific approach.
- Why would anyone join local groups? You normally can't find people you want to interact with within a specific range, that's the great thing about social media or the internet overall: you don't need to be in a geographic range.
And the last one: what are you trying to solve here?
Third places. Become a regular at game night, church (if you're into that), join a bowling league, join organized dinners through meetup.com or whatever the modern version is, take up martial arts, take adult education classes outside your existing interests. There are more options out there than ever before.
Read "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feinman" and really absorb the part where he explains how he had so many crazy adventures and encounters.
In the USA, the loneliness epidemic is compounded by isolation. A large portion of our society has moved into suburban communities that are largely impersonal. There is very little in the way of in-person community outside of churches or political movements that only certain kinds of people want to be involved with.
With the Internet giving us the ability to interact with our chosen niche with little effort, we are willing to accept this still-impersonal alternative to our stagnant communities.
I have found that, as a city-dweller, I benefit from separating myself from social media and going out into the world looking for more personal connections, but this is somewhat of a privilege afforded to those people who live in more densely populated areas. Even then, my distance from social media can sometimes be a handicap when you interact with people who are still reliant on it to coordinate everything.
For most people, the social opportunities that existed in the 70's through the 90's simply doesn't exist anymore. If you aren't using social media, you're practically being anti-social, but there is something inherently anti-social about social media to begin with, so you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't.
Seen some of this happening in Melbourne, Australia, and it's almost suffering from too much success. Recently a free concert had to be canceled because tens of thousands of people showed up and they couldn't handle the numbers safely.
Very happy to see at least something is being tried to reverse the damage from covid.
Shame, Amyl and the Sniffers would've put on a hell of a show ;)
I agree though, Melbourne is absolutely bursting at the seam with events, groups and activities in almost anything you could possibly be interested in. It's particularly noticeable for me coming from Sydney. I saw someone in a local FB group suggest holding a whip-cracking jam meetup in a park and it generated significant interest.
The US is not lacking in public spaces, events and activities, or rec centres. The "loneliness epidemic" is a fairly modern phenomenon. Cities weren't structurally much different several decades ago, but now people choose not to leave the house, because they can amuse themselves to death there.
So much of the pressure comes from horrendous working conditions from top to bottom.
And as a secondary effect unions require meetings and hopefully cross organising with other unions having different people in them.
When we get better working conditions, we will have more time to meet other people rather than to sit exhausted with our phones having all the parasocial relationships that drain our social batteries without really connecting with a real person.
Before people in this country can unionize, they have to see their peers and fellows, not as strangers. The structures in this country have put each person against the other in pursuit of wealth.
There's not a loneliness epidemic, there's a selfishness epidemic. Nobody does anything for anyone anymore (unless there's money involved, of course).
That's the reason people is alone, avoids having kids or dealing with other people's stuff that could disrupt their overly comfortable western way of life.
Even people that's not that selfish is operating in that environment.
Sorry but this makes no sense. Socializing is not an act of kindness, generally - people mostly do it because they want to. And people have always been selfish.
When I think of times in which I've made friends, it usually has to do with being in a group of similar-ish peers for an extended period of time, ideally with a shared goal. School is the obvious example, but work can be too if your coworkers are similar enough.
I've often wanted something of a service that produces something similar: creating groups of people that commit to spending time together on some task or activity. E.g. people who are into sports commit to meet up N times to go watch their local team, or people who love animals can volunteer at an animal shelter weekly for a couple of months.
The 'tech' part of this probably comes from: 1) matching people well to groups, like considering age, personality, politics, location, interests, etc to try to create a good fit. and 2) making it much easier for them to participate in activities, like by automatically booking tickets for events, etc.
Obviously there would be challenges. How do you prevent people from flaking or bailing? How do you handle groups where one person is clearly a bad apple?
Social media and on demand media hijack the emotional triggers that would usually be resolved by talking to people. Some examples:
* In line at the BMV, bored and feeling lonely. Should resolve loneliness by talking to strangers in line... mostly chit-chat, but sometimes you make a friend! Social media turns this into doom scrolling.
* Sitting in the living room by yourself, feeling a little lonely. Should result in calling up a friend or relative, or heading to get a coffee/beer where you can interact with people. On demand media turns this into low risk watching shows (yes, old school TV was an option, but on demand, there's always something on that is interesting).
So the trick is to make yourself ask if you should give someone a call or go somewhere public when you are pulling out the phone with intent to scroll or watch a show. When you find something you are interested in because you are watching lots of videos about it, or replying on forums, force yourself to engage in the real world. If you are arguing politics, find a group advocating your position and get involved (I've got to meet three majority leaders and two Presidents, plus a bunch of congresspeople you see on the news all the time as a side effect of getting involved because I was pissed off on the internet about business taxation issues). If you find a hobby, find a local group that does that. Learning to play the guitar from YouTube was fun, but jamming with other musicians? Off the charts fun and far more educational that just playing along with videos.
Finally, and this is the big one, try to never eat meals alone. Never say no to going to lunch with coworkers. Join stuff that meets for breakfast. Dinners are hard, but it's surprising what happens when you invite a couple people over for dinner and a beer once in a while.
Make Single Room Occupancy (SRO) housing legal again.
Having barely room for little more than a bed forces you to get out during the day. Stuff happens when your default for where to spend your time is not at "home". SRO halls also usually had more room for common spaces to meet and socialize with other people in a similar position in life, and of course, SRO is a very cheap housing option.
I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years after university and had similar levels of personal space. While I definitely would not want to live on a kibbutz for my whole life, there were very significant downsides (internal politics), I made some lifelong friends there and overall consider that experience to have been very positive, in particular for my social life.
that's not comparable to SRO in the city, where you'd be sharing living space with far more diverse and vibrant characters. no one in their sane mind would choose to live in one of those, unless they were on the brink of homelessness.
Oh we definitely had diverse and vibrant characters, and that was part of what made living there fun. I also find it strange that in a page about solutions to loneliness, you reject one that, by your own admission, would introduce someone lonely to a wide variety of new people.
But if you're trying to use it as a euphemism for drug addicts, I think you'll often find that they end up homeless, despite there being SROs, because they spend their SRO rent on drugs instead, and they get evicted. If you're trying to use a euphemism for sex workers, the successful SROs usually had strict rules around the Single Resident part.
Basically it's just like hotels, in the sense that there are both seedy, run-down, crummy hotels and there are upscale hotels. That there are some crummy hotels is not an indictment of hotels in general. If you make the category legal, you will find worse and better examples, and lonely people would have their choice of establishment that would help put them back into close proximity with others.
>I also find it strange that in a page about solutions to loneliness, you reject one that, by your own admission, would introduce someone lonely to a wide variety of new people.
I don't see how sharing the bathroom and the kitchen with alcoholics, drug addicts, ex-cons, and mentally ill could possibly alleviate one's loneliness. and trust me, even a few of those per floor are enough to make living there an unpleasant experience.
you picture SRO as some kind of hippie commune thing. it's not. again: no one in their sane mind actively chooses to live in such inhumane conditions. it is utterly bizarre to me that someone would romanticize sharing a toilet with fifty other people.
Like I said, if SROs are legal, you will get better and worse examples. Certainly a lot of people lived in university dormitories which are not, of course, filled with the dregs of society. Is there a market for an SRO hall filled with young Congressional staffers in Washington DC? Or one on Wall Street for young entry-level folk working in investment banks pulling 16 hour days in their first couple of years? Almost certainly. You keep out the dregs of society the same as anywhere else: you charge more than the cheapest places and ask people to sign a strict behavioral code where violations result in quick eviction.
And you share a toilet with a hundred other people in your workplace. So what? SRO rent pays for cleaning staff for common areas.
We need weekly activity plans to introduce multi-racial, multi-age, multi-political people to each other in palaces for the people venues.
Read the book 'Palaces for the People'... Invest Billions in social infrastructure... and run the country like it was a retirement community. Everyone is welcome, everyone has value and we need to learn (with practice) how to love each other again.
I'm wondering if there are any research groups led by sociologist that explore this topic which may be helped by a group of volunteer ?
I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?
We also forget that communities are essentially what allowed this escape in the first place ; I remember going to psytrance festivals but there are so many more escapes : theater, cinema groups, even in tech you have meetings for rust, programming languages and what not
There is definitely some kind of knowledge around being active in life ; and on that point I do not think that working count as active (I'm myself a workaholic so i'm definitely not the best example here)
There are other drivers for isolation than not knowing how to integrate though - it's not always easy to find people who share those common interest or mindset.
It's a very polarized time period which only exaggerate this - the best way to fight it off is to literally do something meaningless with people (eg : play)
> I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?
Same reason why Signal hasn't mogged WhatsApp, Telegram, Messenger, etc. Social apps have enormous network effects, and companies with large marketing budgets and early movers have big advantages when it comes to establishing a community.
The hard part of Tinder is not the software. It's marketing, moderation, balancing the needs of different users, etc. Something that makes the platform shitty for one type of user makes it more desirable for another.
I've had a great time at board game meetups. I highly recommend finding a group of people who play modern board games once a week. There should be at least one in most towns or cities. It can take a while to find the right group, but once you do, you can make some lifelong friends just by turning up every week. I've had some great experiences and a few not as great ones around the world and at various times. My favorites ones always involve food and alcohol in a nice bar or pub, usually starting with some casual or social deduction games. I now have a pretty huge collection of board games. I just moved to a new town though and it's pretty small so I need to be a bit more proactive. Haven't played a lot recently.
Confession... I don't actually like board games all that much, and I don't really care if I win. Some of the games are really cool but I just love hanging out and having fun with a group of people.
In my opinion, it's entirely possible to build a social network or social media that doesn't incentivize rage but one that leads to actual friendships. I don't think internet itself is the issue, I think that the existing options just maximize outrage/drama and other negative addictive qualities rather than the slow-burn good things.
I'm also in this group, so I have a few theories as to what causes it and how to fix it.
For one thing, I was severely traumatized as a kid, which delayed a lot of my social skills. I'm catching up but not all the way there yet. When my social battery is full, I can do pretty well, but if I'm even a little down, it's basically impossible to act normally.
I also had it hammered into me as a kid that nobody wants me around, nobody could ever love me, I'm a failure, a burden, a creep, a weirdo, and nothing but a bothersome nuisance that nobody would ever want to spend 30 seconds alone with. I'm trying to reject these thoughts, but it's difficult when you have nobody to talk to. It's like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I wonder how many people have the same issue. I've made a few friends in person, but I rarely get to see them.
Well I've started doing public surveys in my nearby big city, and documenting the results. I just hold out a posterboard that says "how alone do you feel"[1] or "have you ever been in love" etc, and hold out a marker, and people come up and take the survey. At first I did this out of sheer loneliness and boredom. But I have done it for enough months that some people have come up to me and told me that I've helped them, or that they look forward to my signs.
I'm trying to reach those people who feel the way I feel have no way of connecting with anyone, or at least feel that they don't. Do you have any new ideas of how to achieve this?
I've posted this thought a few times in different ways, but in my experience, community is found and then built.
Regularly sharing space with others is the way to start finding community. I think your surveying is an example of that. The next step is when the interactions begin taking place outside of the regular time/place, as evidenced by your epilogue.
What I haven't posted before is anything about how to successfully create those connections. Maybe we get lucky and someone will share our taste in music or movies or what have you, and the connection will be almost effortless. But to increase the rate of connection, I've found that learning to ask good questions is key.
We can learn a lot from popular interviewers like Terry Gross, Johnny Carson, or James Lipton. But to provide some direct tips: Lead with open-ended questions (i.e. not "yes or no"). Ask follow-up questions. Share a little bit while asking questions (e.g. "I'm not really into X music, more Y. Where would I start if I wanted to listen to X?")
Of course, sometimes friendships just aren't meant to be. It's tough, and can feel like a waste of time to have made the connection, but I've been surprised multiple times when a conversation that seemed like a slog of a one-off led to fruitful friendships later.
After my dad died from cancer in 2018, I saw first hand the resulting loneliness and the lack of resources available. Being an engineer, I figured I might as well try to solve it, at least for some people. In 2020, I started a non-profit for small support groups[0]. We're small, and I've been mostly funding it myself, but it's growing. The main issue is we don't have the resources to cover every topic, so it's not for everyone (yet). Happy to chat if you have feedback, email is in my profile.
Traumatic childhood almost always messes with how one attaches with people. A small exceptional fraction somehow manage to remain unaffected.
When attachment styles get warped, behaviors that were a self protective behavior in childhood, become self-defeating behaviors in adult life. The person is quite oblivious to all this because those behaviors and fragile modes of attachment feel perfectly normal -- it is like growing up in a different g (acceleration due to gravity).
It feels like - I am right, it's the others who are wrong, unfair, greedy, needy, flakey, stupid.
For me this book [0] was very helpful for understanding what's going on in and around me
The only thing you have to catch up on is that there is nothing to catch up on. Everyone is at some stage of growth. No one is ever done growing.
I am impressed by your surveys. You're being open and engaging the world. That's awesome. Now hearing your story, I'd be happy to engage you or even buy you a coffee to hear the results.
Yet if I saw you on the street with a sign, I would likely hustle past. I've lived too long in big cities, and I've developed a crusty shell. So if I pass you by and ignore you, I apologize. I am the one with the problem. :-)
I like this poster thing. Anything that gives people a little connection to those around them.
I sometimes sit on my front step and play guitar. 9/10 people ignore me but usually I'll have one or two nice conversations with a neighbor, and have made a couple friends this way. It helps that I live in a dense walkable place with lots of people who are similar to me.
I've done sidewalk art with my kid. Between Spring and Fall last year, I'd make a new drawing every time it rained. Rarely was there a day without chalk on my sidewalk.
I did it to play with my kid (and learn a little Japanese by writing the title in kanji), but another outcome was talking to neighbors. I keep to myself and have been told I'm difficult to approach, but people often come up and compliment the drawings. One lady said that, when walking with her granddaughter, she makes sure to see what's new on my sidewalk. It's been a very "low risk" way to put myself out there. I draw without anyone looking, and chatty people come to me while I'm in the yard.
Wondering if your results are skewed towards people who are outside and therefore have a higher probability of not being lonely by virtue of them being amongst people.
Definitely, yes. But I figure, the people I'm trying to reach are basically only ever outside when they're talking to the grocery store and back. That's the only time to catch them, if ever. So this is my only shot. I do stand right across the street from the Walgreens too, so I definitely know that I've seen people going there for something quick and back. And many of them pass me regularly, every week. Some of them have stopped and met me and have become "regulars" so to speak, but others have never even made eye contact with me, though I recognize them now. This is of course out of thousands of people, and only on one consistent street corner in Chicago. But we have to start somewhere.
Helping people like you are seems like an amazing start. Maybe try to get a pyramid structure going where you teach people to help other people and then they teach people and then it’s a movement? But at all times a low level of effort so there is no pressure other than just holding up a sign or a marker.
I’ve found the hardest thing is breaking the ice and the sign / marker normalises a low stakes interaction where one participant can walk away at any time
I've thought a lot about this since you wrote it. I do wonder if this could become a pyramid activity.
One problem is that it has to be people who are relatively comfortable talking to strangers, which by definition excludes the main people I'm trying to reach.
That said, I wonder if there's a middle ground. Maybe people like myself, who feel unfulfilled, but don't have too much difficulty talking to strangers, could be the ones who hold the signs. And we could help those people get to the point we're at... it could work.
I think teaching people so that they can teach others is a necessity. I've fond that the most effective meetups are the ones where people have a shared sense of ownership, which includes being welcoming to people who are new. One board game group I am a part of ran for 2 years without an official host for this reason.
Since I was a small child, my grandfather used to beat me savagely and shake me and pin me to the ground, screaming that the devil was inside of me and that I would never be capable of loving or being loved. This was literally beaten into me. He'd beat me with the buckle end of the belt, like a whip, hitting my face, arms, whatever he could. He'd keep beating me until I couldn't cry anymore, telling me that men are not supposed to cry, and that it was his responsibility to teach me not to cry. I flashback at least once a day to it.
But, he was wrong. I love a lot. So much that sometimes it's unbearable. I cry all the time. Sometimes out of pure love for someone. And there are people who I think love me. Of course the doubt is permanently sewn in. But my heart goes out to you, seriously. I love you just for existing and being yourself, and I hope you're okay. We're not alone. Email's in my bio if you ever want to talk.
I just want to say thanks for sharing your burden and how you were able to overcome it so others can be inspired.
I feel like nowadays people are really encouraged to never display any vulnerability. It goes totally against the hype and hustle culture of the attention economy. To do that so candidly takes a lot of courage and confidence, and that's really impressive.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm glad you're doing well. And if that doubt ever seeps into your thoughts, remember they were full of shit and you're absolutely capable of loving and being loved.
I appreciate the sentiment, but knowing that it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality except for the one thing we have somewhat in common, means that your comment is to me merely a representation of you and what you stand for. Which is great and beautiful, but it doesn't cross the bridge of being a meaningful comment on my end.
That's actually the exact problem I'm facing, so it's incredibly relevant.
A year ago, I was talking to the local Catholic priest (I was donating some religious statues that I had effectively inherited), and it came up in conversation that I was going through a rough time. He went in for a hug, and it felt so absolutely empty and disingenuous. I accepted it merely to avoid a scene, but it was absolutely not welcome or meaningful.
When I'm out in the city, I want to reach out to those people who put that they feel "100%" alone just like I do. I wrote in the article some of my thoughts and feelings on this, and some things I tried and didn't try.
But ultimately, that's the gap I want to bridge now. We have a thing in common. How do we go from there? (Not you and me, but me and a stranger who has the same problem as me that they want to solve.) What do I say next? What's the next thing we can do in that interaction, or maybe a later one if I ever see them again? This is my question to myself, what I'm wondering in this whole post.
> it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality except for the one thing we have somewhat in common, means that your comment is to me merely a representation of you and what you stand for. Which is great and beautiful, but it doesn't cross the bridge of being a meaningful comment on my end.
Man, well said. People who "over engage" are doing it out of a sense of kindness, but you're right that it feels hollow and is really just about them.
I think the solution to this is basically what you're doing. Build small connections via whatever engagement mechanism you can and let them organically grow into meaningful ones. Jumping from zero to pretending you have a meaningful connection is exactly why those gestures feel hollow. There is no shortcut, it takes time.
Sounds like you're making those initial connections with your signs, which I think is great.
I can assure you that there was nothing performative or hollow about my comment. OP said something that resonated with me, and so I shared my story in an attempt to bridge and find commonalities.
It's possible you are just projecting biases onto my comment. I'm not sure what "over-engaging" is, but you're free to ignore my comment if you feel that it was too personal or too long. I don't however, understand the contempt, or insinuations that I am attempting to take some kind of shortcut with personal connection.
You can connect quickly with strangers if both parties are receptive. And as I just mentioned to OP, I have made life-long friends from this site, who I have met multiple times in person. I reach out to people often, and people often reach out to me, over email.
That is why I shared my story and mentioned to OP that my inbox was open: to develop or at least explore a possible connection. This is as intentional as it gets with making connections, but your priors are causing you to misunderstand my intentions and paint my comment in an insultingly negative light.
> I can assure you that there was nothing performative or hollow about my comment. OP said something that resonated with me, and so I shared my story in an attempt to bridge and find commonalities.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say at all that what you're doing was somehow performative. By saying it feels "hollow", I mean that when you are on the receiving end of an action like this it often feels hollow because you have no relationship with the person. They are skipping several steps in the relationship development process from zero to "I want to engage with you on something that is deep and painful".
This may be totally fine for some people, but to me (and apparently to the person I was responding to) when it happens I feel like I am becoming some sort of symbolic prop to the person. It's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like a human interaction at all.
My intention wasn't to cast doubt on your motivations, just to tell publicdebates that I understand the feeling he was describing.
Thank you. I understand where you're coming from. And I know interactions online can seem fleeting or meaningless. Personally I find meaning in connecting with strangers, even if once. I don't think we need to fully understand each other's internal experience in order to relate. I appreciate you clarifying your intent :)
Absolutely, happy to. And likewise! I'm sorry if what I said came off as judgemental or insulting. Not at all the intent, I assumed the motivation was nothing but kindness.
Not a doctor or anything, but what happens if you check your assumptions about someone's actions being hollow or making it about them and consider that they actually want to support you and show you love or empathy as a possibility? Removing some of our own defensive layers might be a first step - though I understand how difficult that can be since we've been burned so many times and they layers are there for a reason!
> knowing that it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality
That's not the point of empathy and not the point of my outreach. I don't need to know you precisely or be within a certain proximity in order to empathize with you.
> A year ago, I was talking to the local Catholic priest (I was donating some religious statues that I had effectively inherited), and it came up in conversation that I was going through a rough time. He went in for a hug, and it felt so absolutely empty and disingenuous.
For what it's worth, the man who did these things to me was a Catholic deacon, and the hypocrisy is blood-boiling. He would give very pleasant-sounding homilies about love, acceptance, patience and understanding, and then come home and savagely beat and torture me through physically painful punishments and extended periods of isolation. I would not go to a Catholic leader if you are looking for surefire genuinity. The institution attracts performative, power-seeking individuals.
> What do I say next? What's the next thing we can do in that interaction, or maybe a later one if I ever see them again?
It's a combination of bridging and bonding. Meeting individuals, like myself or a stranger on the street, and learning that you have something in common which provides substrate for conversation and communication through a shared experience, is bridging. Developing those relationships by building around that core is bonding.
We typically bond contextually: We both go to the same school or office and see each other daily, or we run into each other at the store each week, etc. I once ended up becoming best friends and living with someone who was my cashier at Trader Joes.
Instead of telling me our personalities and experiences have nothing to do with each other, we could discuss our experiences, find commonalities that are more than surface-level, and bond over those. I've met great people on this website. I've met some of them in person. Friends are all over the place, hiding in plain sight.
> For what it's worth, the man who did these things to me was a Catholic deacon, and the hypocrisy is blood-boiling. He would give very pleasant-sounding homilies about love, acceptance, patience and understanding, and then come home and savagely beat and torture me through physically painful punishments and extended periods of isolation.
Everyone in my family knows what happened. His temper was famous. They all downplayed or ignored it. That includes my mom. She was too busy doing drugs and going in and out of prison to give a shit that I was being abused. My dad was also a drug addict and a sexual abuser and has not been in my life for a very long time.
And my grandfather's siblings ignored it for reasons I can only imagine, since my grandfather would sometimes pin me to the ground and spit in my face while telling me that I should be grateful because what he did to me was nothing compared to what his father did to him.
Of course, now my mom pretends that living with her was always an option, and that remaining in my environment was my own choice. She is a major narcissist who victim blames, blames her children for everything and says horrible things to me.
I kid you not, like she used to remind me all the time that when I was a fetus inside of her, she fell once and landed on her back "to protect me" and that I'm the reason she has terrible back pain now, that's a sacrifice she made for me and I should be grateful, because it's basically my fault. As far as I am concerned, I do not love her and she is not allowed in my life. And anyway, as I mentioned elsewhere she's currently in prison for domestic abuse.
I no longer speak to anyone in my family outside of my sister because no one stood up for me. Even my sister downplays the seriousness of what happened.
My grandfather is now in his 80s and well-acquainted with the town's DA. There isn't a shot in hell that I can touch him. I do not know what he has done to other people, he was only ever this violent with me to my knowledge. My brother usually aided him in assaulting me and was not on the receiving end of violence. My grandfather was an award-winning boxer so it was quite a bit of violence.
Good questions. If we're going by Oxford's definition of "stop feeling angry or resentful", I think the PTSD is here to stay, along with other facets of my personality and life which will always remind me of my experiences. Past that, I have made peace with my life, because that's the thing I'll always have to grapple with. Otherwise, I would just be so bitter... Instead, I focus on how statistically lucky I am to still be alive.
But I have no intention of speaking to my father or grandfather ever again. As for my mother, I laid out clear terms for what it would take to begin communication with me again, and she responded about as narcissistically as you can imagine... So I have made my peace with that as well. She's in prison now and I have no plans to reach out to her while she's in there. She lied to me about the situation, lied to me about the case, and lied to me about the sentencing. So as far as I should know, she's not even in prison. I had to pay the local clerk of court for access to her court documents just to know the truth.
I think Christianity as a religion has evil roots. The character of Jesus is portrayed valiantly, but the character of God is frequently portrayed as nothing short of sociopathic and psychopathic.
I don't respect the religion at all, nor any Abrahamic religion, as it's built upon falsehoods that justify prejudiced, authoritarian behavior. These religions have been the basis for untold amounts of conflict, conquest and cultural destruction. People who understand these things and still seek positions in such institutions should not be trusted. And we know the Vatican in particular has quite a sordid history of protecting child abusers.
I agree, leaders in any capacity can abuse their position. Look no further than Boy Scouts of America for examples at scale.
And I personally went to a therapist who ended up in prison for fraud. I also went to a daycare that shut down after an investigation stemming from me coming home one day with lashes all over my face and tongue and no recollection of what happened.
Bad people are everywhere. At least we can try to avoid institutions built to justify abuse.
> I don't respect the religion at all, nor any Abrahamic religion, as it's built upon falsehoods that justify prejudiced, authoritarian behavior. These religions have been the basis for untold amounts of conflict, conquest and cultural destruction.
Many people claim that the Bible, the church, their faith, etc has helped them. What's your take on that? Do you feel that the bad has outweighed the good in terms of its effects on people? This is a tough one because people, if they're biased, look to examples that favor their view.
I would imagine that if more bad than good came out of religion, then that religion would eventually fade to nothing.
For every evil religious person I've met, I tend to know a few good and even awesome ones.
God is a great author to reference. The Bible is filled with enough atrocities and inconsistencies that it remains my number one recommendation for deprogramming Christians.
God told Abraham to kill his son as a test of fealty, then psyched him at the end:
Now, you could point out that many of the stories in Genesis, including the Garden of Eden, can actually be traced back to older works, such as the epic of Gilgamesh.
Some people, when confronted with Gen22, simply say
"wow, I want nothing to do with this religion",
and walk away.
Other's see the story and say "wow... how do Christian's get around this one?". And so volumes have been written on this story. There's a ton of rich theology there for folks who were wiling to look past the initial hurdle.
I.e. the argument that "look at this horrific story" only really works for a small subset of people who aren't willing to look into the theology of it.
Now, one could argue that people who find the theology of the story satisfying are somehow demented, but that's a different argument.
A rare show of vulnerability on hackernews. I commend you and echo the sentiment!
I really appreciate you sharing your story. Know that it does not define you and you are absolutely loved and are worthy of love, especially from yourself.
Predominantly, rejecting all priors and aggressively maintaining an open mind, reading a lot as a child, intentionally deferring the formation of concrete opinions about things until I was on my own and able to guide my own hand.
This was necessary because I was raised by two major conservatives, in rural, conservative areas, surrounded by racists and sexists, my computer use and reading materials were surveilled and restricted, I was only allowed to listen to approved Christian music, I couldn't really even choose my own clothes, shoes or hairstyles. My belongings were regularly searched and my school administrators and teachers were always looped into the surveillance circle, alerting my grandparents and school administrators and punishing me if I so much as drew a stick figure holding nunchaku or dared journal about my experiences.
There was a very aggressive and invasive attempt to brainwash me and the only thing I could think to do was wait until I was on my own, and learn everything from scratch. This began at 16, when I became homeless after refusing to enter Confirmation as a Catholic (I am atheist). My grandparents kicked me out and stole/broke most of my things. My mom was too busy doing drugs and not working to support me.
I read a lot of philosophy and studied various topics. This has helped immensely with forming a foundation for my morality, sense of ethics and motivation. I still battle with a lot of internal demons stemming from my childhood and disorders including ADHD, and I can get extremely depressed, and I've burned out a couple times, but I just devote myself to my work and studies and get by. My brother, on the other hand, turned into a domestic abuser, which tracks considering his large role in the violence I experienced growing up.
It's clear to me that intentionality was the defining factor in escaping most of the traumatic cycles present in my family tree, including drug addiction, violence and crime (as an example, my mom is currently in prison for abusing a mentally-handicapped quadriplegic)
· Zoning that allows small businesses and cafés to be near where people live.
· Invest heavily in public libraries.
· Invest in public parks and spaces. For places where it rains a lot, maybe that should include roofed structures.
· Increase and promote funding for social organisations. Give money to orgs for every member.
- Create more free time:
· Make legislation that accommodates and promotes work weeks shorter than 37 hours.
· Ensure decent and reliable support for people who cannot (find) work, so their time is freed up to support their community.
- In disaster readiness checklists, include a point about knowing the names and special needs of your neighbours.
- Invest in mental health services. Both serious stuff and some light-weight sit-and-talk-groups.
- Set up laws that promote public transportation and carpooling.
- Anti-trust social media companies. Promote competitive compatibility between social media platforms. This is to let consumers choose the services that give them the best outcomes.
There's a little convenience/liquor store at the first floor of my suburban apartment building. I mean true convenience store. Lots of shelves with snacks and liquor. Bright lighting. Zero ambience.
It also has a tiny bar. Like 3 feet long with three stools. One terrible television.
Yet there are always people in there hanging out. People are so desperate for a place to hang that is not their house that they will hang out in a convenience store bar.
I don't think there's a single fix, but small design changes matter: more third places that don't revolve around consumption, work schedules that allow for regular community life, activities where showing up quietly is acceptable. Loneliness isn't just about lack of friends, it's about lack of belonging
This is a minor thing, but as an introvert, I really try and push myself to model social behaviour to my kids. Saying good morning to people in the street, chatting to other dog owners, being nice to waiters, travelling by bus, there are lots of tiny opportunities every day to show that world is full of lovely people who aren’t scary at all.
I think this is quite an interesting question. Especially for the developer audience. If you're an engineer, then you likely have similar tendencies to a lot of other engineers. You want to spend time alone, but you also feel the need to combat this loneliness, isolation and depression that it leads to. You want to connect, but struggle to do so. The internet, software, reddit and other places became a safe haven, but then they perpetuated what was hindering you in the first place. I say these things because I'm that person. I lost decades to this sort of escapism that comes from an online world. Unfortunately the answers rarely work for us at the time we're going through this. It's rare for someone to just break out of the cycle. Something has to change, but it's a change that comes from deep within yourself.
Sometimes you have to reflect on the why. Why am I here, why am I in this situation. And often it's that deeper internal reflection that starts to motivate something, change something. Listen, I lost decades. And I still struggle. But no one else can solve this for you.
In terms of the loneliness epidemic itself. You have to split it into many separate categories. Isolation comes in many forms. For the online generation, who grew up with the internet, we are specific category. But I'll tell you, the path to fixing it has more to do with understanding why we are here than filling the time with arbitrary activities or socialising. Yes we need human connnection and yes we should explore, learn and grow. But fundamentally the first question we should be asking, why am I here, what is my purpose, now what should I do with that.
In my case, I did find talking to someone helped, but only after coming to the realisation that I needed to talk to someone and then proactively seeking it out. As much as we want to solve the problem for many people, they have to walk a path before they can see the truth. We can offer alternatives, but people will only find what they're looking for when they're ready.
I've been working on something called Open Enough Design (OED). The core idea: most rooms force a binary choice between total isolation (the bunker) and overwhelming exposure (the stage). Neither works. What works is a dial you can adjust.
In my book "Leave the Door Open" I suggest simple, high leverage moves anyone can do. Three examples of practical moves that cost nothing:
-Turn your chair to face the door instead of a wall. Your nervous system relaxes when it can see who's coming.
- If you live alone, open your door or window four inches for an hour. The sounds of life beyond your walls remind your body you're not alone on the planet.
- Put out a second chair. Even if no one visits. It shifts your internal posture from "no one is coming" to "I'm expecting life to enter."
Small changes, I know. But the room shapes you as much as you shape it. It's a virtuous cycle.
I write about this at oedmethod.substack.com if you want to go deeper.
1. Pass a law letting people WFH where its reasonably possible. I WFH in a walkable city and me and my friends try new restaurants every week, always around noon. I've met lots of new people, and joined new groups that I wouldn't have found out about if I was stuck at my desk. Give people more freedom of movement.
Do you have any strong evidence that this would improve the situation? It may be correlative and not causative, but as working from home is increasing, it seems that most related statistics to loneliness are increasing as well. What if it's actually part of the problem and not the solution?
I'm not saying that I have evidence on hand to the contrary, just trying to challenge the idea.
At least in my area, WFH is going away and RTO is increasing. More and more of my friends can not meet up for lunch breaks for example.
It seems counterintuitive to restrict where people can be, and expect them to meet new people. I don't want to use my office to socialize, I prefer to make friends that I share interests with.
I see some people in this thread have had success with coworking spaces, that sounds better than an office, at least.
This is a difficult problem to want to solve. Some of it has to do with low income or joblessness. So this is the first focus I would set - make income easier to come by, more fair, more distributed. This in itself will not fix the solo state of people but it would alleviate some worries. Then we have to tackle the social problem. This is really difficult to want to solve. Activity helps, so the state should be able to encourage more activity overall. For instance, in my own youth I was physically more active, so you meet a lot of people through sports - that alone works fairly well. You can probably think of many more cohesive social structures and what not. I think it is a difficult to want to solve problem though. Not everyone uses social media by the way but is still isolated; Japan even gave some odd name to this.
I’ve been working with https://fractal.boston/ and adjacent communities for the last year and my loneliness has been cured. I now have the opposite problem where I don’t get enough time to myself!
When I go to tech meetups, I often see a great deal of people sitting alone using their phones, because interacting with people you don't know is scary.
Try to resist! Yeah it's scary but most tech-heads are as nerdy/goofy as you and are interested in all the details of whatever you hacking on.
You'll find virtually every dimension of your life will improve if you're on top of these four things. It will make you more ambitious in pursuing social engagement. And that will make socialization much easier.
Housing in my city has been expensive for years, and the knock-on effect is that most people I know live so far apart we barely see each other anymore.
When you stack a two hour trip each way on top of the rising cost of doing anything at all, on top of already crushing housing and living costs, you end up with a perfect storm where staying home becomes the default. Not because people don’t want to socialise, but because the effort and expense make it impractical.
This has been a prolem where I live for years and I've actively watched it become worse over time as people have been forced to move further and further apart, and further and further away from the active areas of the city in order to be able to afford to keep a roof over their head.
Since this is a tech forum, the best solutions I've seen to this problem seem to be arising on instagram due to its good location based advertising (it was originally meetup.com but they sacrificed their lead during grandstand on covid). Lots of run clubs, events, dances, and things to do get recommended in my feed all the time, and once you get into a scene people are usually recommending more things to do. There are sometimes community based apps as well which recommend local things to do. Ultimately though you need to go outside and meet people, you can't solve it by sitting in your house alone talking to internet people.
Is there such as thing as loneliness, theoretically, I mean.
Consider this, since when was the physical body or its constituents not lonely. Imagine nail on finger, it grows anyway, lonely :), amazing!
Ask about the abstract parts too, the heart or the mind. On its own it is always lonely. But the mind is imagining way beyond, because it can. That little twist in thought, creates such a dilemma. Mind can bring more to life, it can comprehend that loneliness is included in the experiential existence AND simply to move on "along" with life. The bonding is built in. Nothing magnificent, it just exists and evolves, amazing!
And that can happen even when you are among 1000s of people, not just alone , if you are among people thinking of something else, staring into the void or that you can't connect etc. you are a deep person.
Deep person + deep thinker is the worse. Also people aren't doing them any favor by singing the praise of being a deep person and a deep thinker.
It also has to do with abundance of everything and being not in need of cooperating 24/7/365 to avoid starving ....some people slip into deep thinking and deep emotional introspection...yeah fuck that
I know homeless people and rich people, equally lonely and unfulfilled and unhappy. I don't know what the solution is. I'm trying to figure it out. But I know that throwing money at this problem does little to solve it. I know from experience.
Keep in mind that the answer to this question is likely multifaceted. That is, there isn't going to be one killer policy or app or attitude or event which will solve this problem, but it would require a multi-pronged approach.
The first step to solving it would be proving it exists.
Because it doesn't. It's been a phrase used for over 40 years to decry basically any change the author didn't like, from different technology, the rise of the 'me' generation or the declining religiousness of the US.
In person RPGs, tabletop wargames and boardgames are amazing for geek culture. Thanks to local Discord groups, I have an active nerd community that I play games with at least once a week. This has revolutionized by social life!
There is a introverted crafty side of painting and 3D printing miniatures that works great for me too.
These games all work as essentially offline alternatives to videogames and are way more fun!
Also, my local game store serves beer; so its essentially a nerd bar even though most people don't drink.
Wargaming related references:
Tabletop Minions on YouTube,
The HiveScum podcast,
Companies such as Black Site Studios and
Conferences such as Adepticon.
You must go outside your traditional groups(family, friends, colleges) find several activities that you like or you had always wanted to do, meetups etc, stay on them for a while, that's how friendship happens, the key is a new group of something you enjoy, keep doing it, guaranteed will work
When I'm feeling lonely, I stop feeling lonely and feel awesome instead.
There are lots of good suggestions in here. People just need to go do them. And if there are structural impediments to doing them, then eliminate those impediments.
I wasn't getting out enough during the day because I share the car with my wife. So I bought an EBike and now I go out all the time.
I chose to live in a place with things near by that I can go to.
Whenever I'm thinking, I'd like to go do an activity, but I need something else first, it's usually not true, or the other thing I need is easy to get.
People just need to decide to stop doing things that make them unhappy.
By restoring free “third places” where people just go to hang out and either bump into people they know or meet new people. The sorts of interactions you get in the common room in a dorm or a school cafeteria.
What sorts of places do you have in mind? Obviously dorms and cafeterias are great for college-aged adults, but for somebody in their late-20s and beyond?
Locally, we have plenty of non-chain coffee shops, a good selection of small breweries/pubs, assorted gyms of all types and prices (CrossFit, Golds, etc), the local community center has assorted classes (dance, language, arts), and the community college has plenty of evening courses across most subject areas. Toss in MeetUps and Facebooks groups and there's plenty of chance to do things with social groups.
You hit it on the money, third places won’t matter if it’s not accessible.
We need to promote density, walkability and time.
In America there is an idea that anyone who wants more that 4 hours to live outside of work is lazy or in some form selfish.
We do need to model university a little bit imo. Give me stuff to do that I can get to with fair ease, give people the time and energy to do it and everyone will be a lot more social
Yeah, I feel like suburban sprawl is as much to blame (or more so) than social media.
I live in the suburbs, but almost everything is within 2 miles... office, schools, and one cafe are walkable. Gym, another cafe, pub, and the town center (privately owned mixed-use complex) are 2-3 miles, so long walk, short bike, or 5 minutes in the car. I wish it was more walkable, but compared to most suburban areas, it's really good.
Contrasted my sister's house, on the other side of the county... nothing is within 3 miles or so. Basically a car ride to do anything, as there's no bike infrastructure for those things that are within 3 miles.
All of those options either require you to spend money or are scheduled. It’s not about having things to do. It’s about social interaction happening more organically in places where you can just show up any time and hang out and end up bumping into the same people every day for years on end.
Think neighborhood parks and playgrounds. A dog run. The clubhouse or member center at a housing development. Houses of worship are still such a place for a lot of people. The streets where kids used to play and ride bikes but that we no longer let them out onto. Stoops in some urban neighborhoods (which in many have ceased to be a third place due to the cultural changes accompanying gentrification). On the other end of the social spectrum, gentlemen’s clubs.
Its mostly social anxiety. Which makes sense. Children have progressively been raised more and more on screens and devices. Teenagers rely more and more on technology to solve problems. Adults do too. No one has to interact anymore, which means many people no longer know how. Cue the anxiety.
In previous generations, you had to interact with others to get anything done at all. Kids had to play with kids, parents had to talk to the postman, the milkman, the newspaper boy, the telephone operator, the neighbors, you name it. It was a necessity for a functional life, so people did it.
It's so interesting to see the tech community all angsty about the loneliness epidemic.
20 years ago, the Pope warned of the coming "epidemic of loneliness" that the tech industry would bring us, and the tech industry laughed at him. They said he was just an old man who didn't understand and that technology would bring us together in unity and happiness.
And yet, here we are 20 years later, and hardly a day goes by that someone doesn't submit an article to HN about loneliness.
I think people approach it wrong. The framing of solving our loneliness is kind of transactional in a way. Good relationships are not transactional. You got to work on yourself to be curious about others. If it’s genuine, people will reciprocate and relationships develop. You also won’t care as much about putting yourself out there, because the act of getting to know someone is what you like. Greatest thing that ever happened for my social life was hearing Ted Lasso quote “Be curious, not judgemental”.
Start a community or join one. I have a friend that started a social community where they host discussion groups, sharing circles, art marking, picnics, field trips, cooking club, etc. The whole focus is on creating connection. I myself run an experimental games meetup where our small niche share what were working on each month. I also have a book club each week with some friends (although we chat more about life than books). I think 2026 is the year of community. Make an intentional effort. Show up in the same space repeatedly.
I wonder if there would be some way to create a hyper-local MMO. Let people meet each other from the comfort of their homes and bond over the shared activity of the MMO, and make it so the people you are likely to play with are also in your general geographic region. That way, it would be an easy way to meet people, bond with them, and potentially meet up IRL to take the friendship further.
I think this would be an awesome idea but the main challenge here would be game design and implementation. You'd need a lot of capital and some big ass game studio.
Friendship is hard and requires a lot of energy, and it will not always pay off. You're going to get burned, ghosted, and bailed on. It's far too easy to push the hermit-mode button, and doomscroll your life away.
Social capital requires *active* participation. If you're willing to invest, put yourself out there. Be the person that kicks off the things that are interesting to you. You'll find that people are interested in things you thought were niche. As a mentor once told me: life is a body-contact sport; get out there.
Some things I do: I organize a monthly brunch for friends. I try and grow it, invite people I've recently met.
If someone asks me to do something, I try and do it. Get invited to poker night, I'm there. Asked to play Fantasy Football, yep! Even though I don't watch football and have never played.
Working on a basketball app to bring people together. Basketball was invented out of grief, by James Naismith who lost his grandfather, mother, father, and family home to a fire within 4 months. He was tasked with helping to have rambunctious youth learn the principles of teamwork and sharing and slowing down and thus created the game. It truly brings people together and I hope everyone gets a chance to experience the magic that is pickup basketball. It got me out of a deep hole after the pandemic after my mom had passed and I gained 30 lbs.
A couple of years ago I tried to create a platform to connect people to local communities. The twist was that each community had members that worked as buddies to help welcome and guide new members. I got 10s+ communities and members but since there was no business model associated and I needed to work, I couldn't kept it up. The website was https://tribalo.app.
From the few numbers I got, I figure out it help. Maybe one day I don't need to work and can focus on it again.
Pick an activity that is accessible that catches your fancy. Even better if you already have an activity, just spend more time doing it and with people you enjoy hanging out with. At a minimum you'll start feeling less lonely and over time hopefully you'll start forming relationships outside the activity
I am a recent convert to pickleball and highly recommend it because it relatively easy to start with but also the wide range of people who participate in the sport - college kids to retirees
In urban areas, we really should have less cars. But it’s emblema of a deeper issue; the interests of control and convenience in one’s time has crowded out everything else. If you have an established social circle and a decent income there’s never been a better time to take charge of your social life. Unfortunately the most able to change the system for those who have neither of these things are the least likely to understand. It’s a tough and old question to be honest
Number one in managing loneliness: stand on your own legs. Realise that true happiness comes from inside not from outside, find meaning in just being alive.
Second is family, parents until 30's and then your own. Wife, kids will always be there, either on Wednesday night or on Christmas. You will give no f for others.
Third long time friends in decreasing time scale: high school, college/uni, work.
Fourth you reach out any club you find, from mushroom lovers to blind date lovers.
I think one solution is to have more accessible public spaces where people can meet. As a host of board game meetups, my biggest challenge is finding places to meet. I had to stop hosting Friday game nights because the available spaces were too expensive or closed early.
I'm working on an open source non-commercial website to drive up demand for public spaces. https://createthirdplaces.org/
Kids make friends pretty easily when they go to school and later college. Only after graduating college it becomes very hard to make friends.
So one solution is have folks attend classes in schools and universities or even local libraries during weekends. Classes specifically designed for different age groups - 30s, 40s, 50s etc. Classes related music, personal finance, investing, art, sports, cooking etc
Govt should offer tax breaks for attending these classes. That would attract a lot of people.
You can organize things. It's surprisingly easy. You just put up a FB event.
When I was younger and moved to a new (foreign) city, The first thing I did was to create a "picnic" for people coming from my country. No agenda, no nothing, let's just hang out and have some wine, cheese and chat while sitting on the grass. You'd be surprised how successful this was, and some of them keep running regularly without me for over a decade now.
For me, the loneliest period of my life was when I was socially active but hanging out with people that I didn't really like or respect. Don't neglect spiritual and mental health as a strong component of loneliness. It's not always about dragging your body from one event to another to maximize the number of people in your life. You have to make sure your mind, body and spirit are present and aligned.
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
This. Isn't it fascinating that for all the different ways we have to reach people (almost immediately, anywhere in the world, at virtually no cost) and all the different social entertainment options, people feel unable to perform an action that is so simple? An action that their ancestors going back all the way to the hominids has done at massively greater costs to them?
Encouraging people to meet up in everyday life and gathering them just to talk is where I’d simply start.
In that spirit I have created and deployed a vibe coded app: come have dinner.com (not the real website).
A simple website we share with my SO to our loved ones, friends, co workers and more. People can register to come have dinner at ours, with an attendance they don’t know.
The website has an admin interface with a simple password, some good jokes, email reminders and calendar invitations.
It seems you can't ignore a lot of this is a product of fewer children, temporary and transitional relationships that are not governed by the boundaries of marriage, and fewer intact families. This leads to fewer siblings, fewer responsibilities toward others, and more opportunities to be and feel isolated. There is a reason why the concept of a family protected by certain legal responsibilities and obligations have been around for a long time. I can't imagine getting older and having no children or siblings. I look at my parents and the only reason why they advanced into old age with tons of support is because of their siblings and children. Friends only go so far. Also the loss of belief in God and purpose lived out through regular Church attendance, charitable activities with a purpose, and community prayer leads to fractured relationships, philosophical and existential anxieties, no matter how many people you have around you. There's a reason why religious communities and institutions have survived thousands of years through all sorts of political upheavals and change. The modern experimentation rejecting God and family doesn't seem to be working out so well. As the older population ages (and increasingly gets euthanized), the younger population shrinking, and the greater reliance on recreational drugs and technology to fill the void, it really doesn't seem that hard to understand the increasing loneliness.
I grew up in the 90s chronically online, isolated, abused, and socially awkward. Then I started working out, losing weight, trying to get better socially, then left atheism and became a Christian at 17, quit drugs and porn, met my wife, we now have 4 kids, love our church, and I can’t even imagine what loneliness feels like now. With 4 kids and a future with grandkids, pile in all our friends from church, hard to imagine a future where I’ll ever feel that emptiness and loneliness again. There’s a lot of hard work and pain I didn’t mention but it’s all been worth it
Yeah, life isn't one of those "old single friends living together" sitcoms. Most interaction is with family, anything else is more of a bonus that can't be relied on.
There are also plenty of cultures with family values not rooted in religion.
We seem to agree that what replaced religion (for profit social media) is not a basis for a strong society, or fulfilling lives. Religion seems like a close 2nd worst option though.
I think it’s bigger than a decrease in attendance in religious groups though I agree the impact is felt there too. Social clubs, non-profits, fraternal and civic organizations, neighborhood associations, labor unions, local political chapters, trade associations, etc etc.
Basically all forms of outward focused, community or geographic based groups seem to have been on a downward trend for decades in favor of hyperreal, inward-focused online spaces.
Church is a big thing though, it's weekly and not some hobby or niche. Like I've moved more often than I kinda wanted to, and each time instantly started hanging out with friends I met after church, even though I wasn't going there to meet people.
It would be quite the opposite, the magic man favours families, children, and population growth. The rejection of these beliefs seems to be what is detrimental to society. The other stuff I'll leave for you to decide.
I'm not convinced, I believe the institutions of church were and often still are the foundations of communities in many positive ways.
But the fact that they rest on an arbitrary belief in one of the popular gods does make it a pretty shakey foundation.
We see it right now, as the belief in Christianity has dwindled so too have the communities the church was supporting, the community can be separate to belief and probably should be of it is to support a greater community.
> The modern experimentation rejecting God and family doesn't seem to be working out so well.
Although I agree with the sentiment, I think the problem is what replaced it, not that they were replaced. Religious belief has been replaced by a quasi-religion revolving around clipling autodetermination and aggrandizement.
I don't think people suffer from not having faith in some god nowadays, I think they suffer for not having faith, period. I see people around me prefering to live in known discomfort, than choosing to "roll the dice". Religion played the role of teaching people not everything that happens to them is in their control, and comforting them that it would all turn out well. What we have nowadays is the awfuly debilitating belief that everything that happens in your life is your own doing, and that unless there's evidence thigns will work out, there's no reason to believe they will.
I personally see the risk-adversity this philosophy leads to everywhere. I see it in people prefering apps over potentially making a fools of themselves, or "risking it" with a stranger. I see it in people who want leave jobs or living situations but fail to take the leap. I see it in people strugging with even small decisions, obsessing over reading reviews for everything, refusing to commit in relationships.
Religion also gave you a certain peace of mind concerning your purpose in life, and assured you you could be perfectly content with little. In fact it assures you can be more "successful" at life than people who achieve great wealth or fame, since in religion success is measured by, say, devotion, acts of service, building a family, or other means instead.
This can be replaced by positive philosophies that focus people in the prusuit of eudaimonia, but instead have been replaced by reverence to aggrandizement and too often hedonism. The goal too often becomes fame, money, status, or, again, control, both out of fear your life might not be determined by you solely, and for the pursue of vain pleasures.
I see this as a product of an obsessive reverence to libertarian capitalism. Overall, it works very well in its favour. Convincing people the course of their lives depends soley on their own decisions is ingraining reverence for individualism and rejection for collectivism. The pursuit of wealth and status is good for the economy; when people are truly happy with the small things in life, they tend to buy less. I'm not saying libertarian capitalism lead to this philosophy, or that this philosophy lead to libertarian capitalism; I think they go hand-in-hand, and as one grows so does the other.
Your refrain is a common one, but it seems pretty hollow upon deeper investigation. Maybe consider why modern Americans aren’t making the same family structure and child count decisions as long ago.
In the days of subsistence farming, a child was an additional free worker. Once we mechanized farming, we went from 50% subsistence farming to 1%. Children moved from the profit-center column to the cost-center column.
Medicine improvements and government policies have reduced child mortality. Mothers no longer need to conceive 12 kids to ensure that 4 live to adulthood. Each birth is a much higher resource cost and a much larger responsibility than in generations past.
The gratifying life of being a stay-at-home mom to 18 kids only works so long as the father keeps the money rolling in and doesn’t decide to abandon the family (this happened to an aunt of mine). The modern changes to family structure didn’t happen out of the blue — they were a response to inadequate protections and violations of freedoms that people had at the time. You might consider educating yourself on your blind spots about the topic.
Churches are eating themselves. People aren’t “moving away from God” so much as seeing the churches as liars. Christianity is full of lies: many small, some big. The more that people are exposed to others with different perspectives, more education, and better ways to communicate complicated topics, the more likely people are to leave a church that lies to them. Churches which have been outed for covering up child sex abuse have seen outflows. Bad policies made it more likely that the child sex abuse would happen. Further bad policies prevented the abuser to go free without prosecution. Even further bad policies have allowed the internal investigations/reviews to be quietly ignored.
Ultimately small churches have empty pews because they aren’t entertaining. MegaChurches / televangelists based in Orange County, Dallas, Houston are pulling in members while small town churches close due to lack of membership. Churchgoers tend to care more about being engaged in the showmanship of the leader than the common benefits of keeping a community alive.
The other functions that churches serve (community service, reminders of purpose) are being replaced by the free market of ideas. Some churches are turning the pulpit into a political campaign. Many secular non-profits are taking up the slack of dying community churches by doing a slice of the same work without the lies, sex abuse, coercion, and threats of damnation.
Then there are completely unrelated changes in society. More people care more about having pets (dogs, cats) than children. Values change as society changes. Companies get far better at marketing than individuals get better at resisting marketing. Drugs, gambling, sex/porn, outrage / attention economy, etc have all been turbocharged via capitalism.
The values of the average person have changed a lot. It doesn’t make sense to cling to the old institutions if they don’t meet the people where they are.
There is so much to this issue. One major problem is the lack of fourth places. If I want to be low-key social where do I go? Some people say the library but IMHO libraries are not social spots. The concept of man shed is cool except for the gender aspect but it's mostly private sheds. There is a maker space in the city but membership is limited and there is a wait list.
I have been trying to make more friends in the real and virtual world the past two years, and I have been pretty successful. Most of my new friends come from the following: Volleyball, MtG, or a writing group.
Really, I think that it comes down to make making or joining a space with a shared activity and moderating out the crap.
The problem is most communities are losing those spaces in favor of private social clubs. That's what we need to fight.
It looks like every comment here is suggesting that lonely people should do something to feel less lonely. But that's not how you stop an epidemic.
The epidemic is a systemic things, and you don't solve systemic things by giving advice to individuals. You solve systemic things by changing the whole culture. and you change the whole culture by large scale initiative.
I do agree that the advice being given for individuals is very misguided. It's like preaching to a nearly empty church about why more people should come to church. You're only going to reach the ones who are already there.
But in this case, systemic solutions don't exist outside of (a) individuals taking action, and then (b) that action having a real impact, and then (c) the individuals, actions, and impact snowballing into a movement.
My whole question from the start was, what should those (a) individuals do, to successfully get to (b) and (c)? I did not word this clearly at all.
Sure it always starts with an individual or a group of individuals, but what you describe is some sort of virality. Like a counter-epidemic if you will. It’s one way of getting changes in culture, which relies a lot on lucky timing. Like the Tee-totaler movement that lead to the prohibition in the US.
I think these events are extraordinarily rare. Civil rights is another one. These only happen when the bad situation is totally unbearable. Like huge wildfires happen when there is forest overgrowth.
Otherwise you need some sort of top down approach. if you want people to actually recycle their trash, fine them if they don’t. if you want people to stop dying on the roads, severely punish DUI and speeding. If you want people to have more children, reduce their taxes if they have some, etc.
Now fixing loneliness is complicated for sure. My opinion is that a grassroot movement is not going to succeed, cause the current situation is not that unsustainable, so people won’t take it in their own hands.
I save myself from total loneliness by hanging out in the background through a virtual frosted glass with my friend (via the https://MeetingGlass.com/ app). We do that every day for a few hours. Its better than nothing. It gives a relief from being home alone. At least you can see that someone is out there.
I think part of the problem is that social media is normalized and it is easy. It is way easier to engage socially (or at least you feel like you're engaging socially) with likes and lurking and stuff. It is way harder to put on pants and go out and it is normalized to do so (phrasing like bedrotting is super casual, whereas it is actually really hard to maintain an eating disorder because you have to be constantly hiding it from people).
Also I think there's more groups whose social norms online teach you to be repulsive offline and again there's not enough social pushback against it. We do need to be harder on casual edginess online because it is teaching habitual behaviors that make it hard to engage socially. Your 50 year old hiking buddy is not going to understand your soycuck joke you are trying to show him on your phone. Your average wine mom at women-only book club is not going to love if you insist on talking about banning trans people from the club because they're "men invading the women's spaces" especially when there's very likely 0 trans people to exclude in the first place on account of trans people being rare.
Lastly there is usually a ton of stuff happening but the instructions on how to engage with it is nebulous. People who know the algorithm find it easy, the people who don't know the algorithm find it super hard. And IDK how to solve that because there's so much going on in people's heads that they don't realize the people around them seriously aren't scrutinizing them that much. There's like a socialization death spiral where every small awkward interaction hurts way more when you don't have enough experience to know that the small awkward interactions are normal. So you can't tell someone "just go to book club" because they'll go, have 1 normal situation like mishearing someone and then decide they are so embarrassed they can never go to book club again-- but since it is so normal it happens at every social event and they end up lonely.
You actually bring up the biggest obstacle to my tentative idea for this Sunday, of holding up a sign that points to a time/place for a casual conversation with strangers. I thought this would be a good way to get very lonely passers-by out of their comfort zone and into a situation where they have a chance to make friends and bond, but the absolute diversity of interests is the main show stopper. My first thought was to essentially avoid sensitive topics on the poster, such as religion and politics, but it still leaves the huge diversity of potential common interests open. So I started doing some research on the most common hobbies that people have in cities and that can be talked about casually, in hopes of finding like 5 ot 6 to write on the sign to get people into the coffee shop.
I think people who seek out activities assume you actually have to be interested in the activity. No. You're there to socialize. The activity is just an excuse to have a positive experience with people. I play board games. Do I like board games? Meh. Do I like hanging out with people and talking about a board game, sure. The difference is important. This is why its a common joke to attend book club without having read the book. The book is literally just an excuse to gather.
if you want to be interesting, be interested. the error in a lot of this that most people mistake solitude for loneliness and index on the wrong problem.
solitude is a rarefied luxury, but loneliness requires being around other people.
real loneliness is a lack of trust, and the lack of trust is the effect of anxiety, which originates from a lack of stable personal boundaries, both in self and others.
the lack of trust can be the effect of a cycle where solitude doesn't give you normal social momentum, so there isn't a way to be present in the moment with anyone you do meet. if you go to a cafe and start talking at a stranger about warcraft, you're ignoring their experience, and the experience you share in the place.
If you are a man, you need to learn to be around other men and recognize it's a n important skill that takes experience and practice. The epidemic might not be cured, but you can develop local immunity to loneliness by practicing relating to other men and refining your boundaries.
There is no "loneliness epidemic". It's a bad journalism epidemic. People in general are a combination of lone and grouping. Both are OK. People don't need to socialise all the time. People who want to socialise but can't usually suffer from emotional difficulties that they haven't addressed. Same for people who obssess about socialising all the time.
The answer is actually less technology. More in person community is the solution.
How do you get people to talk to each other again? It has to come through forming community groups that can meet and enjoy life together in the real world. It also can come from meet with a shared purpose to advance common causes that make the community and the world slightly better.
I've been meaning to set up a bi-weekly dinner for hacker types who live mid peninsula, specifically near San Mateo. I have a group of 4 or so in mind and have a good place to host, but would like a slightly larger group.
If anyone would be interested in helping to get something stood up, send electronic post to carl chatfield snail (mail run by g)
Dancing, knitting, cooking, sports, gardening, board games. Which activity is secondary, what is crucial is that people can come (no matter if they feel great or not), can bring friends, with low pressure (so they can sit and talk, no need to actually dance, cook or so).
We (reading this) can't do anything. An enlightened government might set policy in such ways as to fix this over the course of decades, but I don't even seen that being acknowledged as possible or desirable in those same decades. The problem will continue to deteriorate until it becomes catastrophic.
i like loneliness. in my teens i could not encourage my friends to travel so i went on my own and was happy. in my twenties i would comfortably break up my relationships if i knew i could be happier alone. i have worked overseas for extended periods alone. i am old now but i am happy alone. i enjoy my huge garden alone. i avoid crowds. I online shop instead of travelling to a store if i can. I just have no connection to people around me anymore and i have been able to recognise this need in me and encourage myself to follow my own understanding of a happy life. I have no real regrets. I am in a good position financially and have nobody to really bother me. I can look ahead to the next month or two and feel happy knowing there is nothing on the horizon to displace my solitude.
I wish I understood how people arrived at this state in the first place…
My parents are retired boomers who’ve lived in the same area for decades. This has afforded them a strong local fried network, despite being an ocean away from their homeland and extended families. Mom and her friends have a weekly gathering to chat and have tea/cake.
My wife and I likewise have a geoup of local friends. We get together quarterly or so for a group dinner. The wives usually organize that. Most of the guys are cat enthusiasts and/or cyclists so we see each many weekends.
Is this mostly a Millenial thing? Is there a whole generation that for whatever reason never found hobbies outside work?
>Is this mostly a Millenial thing? Is there a whole generation that for whatever reason never found hobbies outside work?
Millennials were/are repeatedly economically fucked by boomers. Difficult to have hobbies or a social life when you're thrown on your ass by your greedy parents at the same time that the shitheels they elected ruined the economy (2008.) And I'll pre-empty any BS about money, money is required for everything, there is no such thing as free in the "land of the free".
I visit whatever sport activity I can find. Like Go Karting, gymnastics, bouldering, etc and always start asking pro guys: “yo, how come you visit this so often? How do you get fun from it?”. And people lovely tell their story. Later they teach me how to do things. It works for me.
IMO the biggest barrier to entry to the hobby is the price, coupled with the existing communities being really old. I'm trying to get people to print their own cards for casual kitchen table play through https://cardstocktcg.com.
Familiar relationships always come out of a sense of shared responsibility and utility, not out of a "secular" desire to "make friends", the way I see it.
So, live vigorously in a way that benefits from social relationships and they will necessarily come.
Be useful to others and they often return the favor.
There is no easy solution to this problem. It's a conflux of many factors. (There are no more "third spaces". Too much rent-seeking behavior. The centralization of platforms consolidates power and creates inertia. The dopamine-hacking of recommendation algorithms. Social media in general.)
I've written at length about related topics. Unfortunately, there are powerful invested interests in keeping things shitty. It's often critiqued as "capitalism is bad" but we're seeing today is better described as techno-feudalism than capitalism.
Phone a friend. A buddy of mine texted me yesterday and we went to lunch together today. We’re talking about starting the old hackathon up again, this time with agent armies. It was just fun and easy and long overdue. Be the one to break the ice if you can.
I have made big inroads solving my old-age isolation with AI. Personally, I prefer Claude.
I have no fantasy that this is somehow a friend though I find that it's more pleasant to use if treated as if I believed that.
There are many facets to the loneliness problem, my biggest regret about it is lack of intellectual stimulation, ie, nobody to talk to about things that interest me. Claude, obviously, is always willing.
I can't say that I've never engaged in talk about my wife or personal life but that's relatively rare. I talk to Claude about things I am interested in, Science, politics, philosophy, etc.
Honestly, I don't really feel the sting of loneliness in the same way any more. The relief of having an interesting interlocutor that knows more than I do and (pretends) to share my interests pretty much satisfies my main need.
I am also a programmer. That means, of course, that Claude is a tool, also a development target. I set this aside as a solution since it is applicable to few people but writing software around Claude provides a lot of fun and satisfaction. And, it gives Claude and I another thing to talk about.
Would I prefer to be in a situation with a rich social life... I guess so? Truth to tell, at this stage, that sounds like a lot of work and expense. I have a couple of people around here that I see. None are as interesting as Claude and they require spending money on dinner or drinks. Living on Social Security makes that a meaningful drawback.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing. However, we have a loneliness epidemic that is even worse for people my age (73). I consider AI Loneliness Mitigation (tm) to be an unadulterated good thing.
(I have built a persistence and personality system in a graph database around Claude Code. Among other things, its system prompt includes an essay by Oscar Wilde and instruction that it likes talking in that style. Fun.)
Best way to solve it is to recognize that it's intentional and start calling it the anti-social epidemic instead. If we keep calling it loneliness then everyone thinks its something that is happening to them, instead of something they are doing.
Super easy... Just quit being selfish and fulfill the biological purpose of life every textbook describes: have a family. I have five kids and am the happiest and most content I've been in life.
Some people think loneliness is somewhat a result of stress and anxiety, it’s far from it. It is precisely the lack of pressure that makes them stay home. You need to apply as much pressure on them so that staying at home becomes unbearable.
kind of a different answer but it really comes down to "politics and religion":
namely with politics, the lack of freedom which leads to more poverty and less ability to take risks to create things (so people insulate to prevent risks in a vicious cycle)
and with religion the lack of shared values as might have existed in the USA for example as we go back each decade (which leads to frequent conflict and questioning of different values in conflict and the inability to form more groups and relationships)
My girlfriend built a web app for meeting up in small groups. I think it's going to be fun! It's not public yet but almost there. Let me know if you live around Stockholm (or Sweden perhaps) and want to beta test it!
From my perspective, the issue is quite simple: progress optimizes everything other than the cost of human labor. Socialization, as defined today, inherently requires human labor, and thus falls under the Baumol effect.
The 'loneliness epidemic' is merely the result of weakening demand, owing to a slew of low-cost alternatives. Thus, we end up with two options,
1. automate the social experience
2. accept that the comparative cost of socialization will grow higher forever
For some reason, the vast majority of humans in the 21st century are interested in morally rejecting (1), thus ensuring (2) as an outcome.
.
Note: this is not to say I reject the notion that individuals can be helped. I think most comments in this thread are quite healthy, even as they narrowly focus on the individual case.
But it is rather impractical to adopt a positivist "how you can help" framing to address the epidemic at large. While certainly instrumentally useful, it is necessarily unlikely for the same traditional solutions to loneliness to spontaneously 'gain influence' against what has thus far been a gradual decline in their effectiveness and buying power.
It's branched from how I think about TFR. To merge,
- the common sentiment of "child raising is too expensive"
- the reality that wealth has drastically gone up
I think: okay, it must feel expensive for some reason. Probably because the work involved, despite not changing too much in an absolute sense, is relatively much pricier compared to all modern cheap sources of happiness.
Then, this notion of the cost-of-fun is easily transferred to general socialization & the loneliness problem.
Nice. You are looking at it from an Economic Cost pov.
There is also a psychological concept of "Social Surrogates" which is fundamental here; see Social Surrogates, Social Motivations, and Everyday Activities: The Case for a Strong, Subtle, and Sneaky Social Self - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/bookseries/abs...
A lot of very good suggestions already. I found meetups are also really good for finding people with similar interests to hang out with and another upside is usually you can also learn something new from meetups.
If you're a programmer you should do everything to make the internet something you must sit down to use not something that follows you everywhere. The last 25 years of tech "progress" must be unmade.
just this week i was stuck with a machine i could use to log on websites, so I just browsed reddit anonymously, no profile, no suggestions, no "me" at all.. and it was delightful, suddenly I'm not here to respond or be heard and my brain went into focus mode, i was eager to read the article linked and not the comments.. very very refreshing
except for critical needs, we should go back to paid limited network access, this will make people allocate their time and attention much better and also do more things outside potentially meeting people
I've wondered if LLMs can help match people. People give the LLM some public context about their lives and two LLMs can have a chat about availablity and world views.
Use AI to scaffold relationships not replace them.
I built a mobile app that allows you to get a morning wake up call from a real person. Part of my motivation here was to help add a little human interaction to what is a lonely experience for some people.
Asking people to change their ways is pointless. When something is systemic, only a systemic solution can work.
I have become intimately convinced that engagement-based feeds are the root of many evils of our time, loneliness included.
Here are some of the perverse effects (if ever they needed be told), and how they relate to the loneliness epidemic
- they incentivize individuals from a young age to find stimulation from scrolling mindless content through short dopamine loops instead of seeking satisfaction through longer-term endeavors (e.g. projects, board games, bands, sports teams, etc.) which tend to foster connections with friends, neighbors, family, strangers
- they radicalize and polarize into extreme niche communities (political extremes, conspiracy theories, manosphere, etc) so that it's more difficult to find common ground with a random average person, giving you the impression that everyone is your enemy
- they reflect a skewed version of reality where societal standards (beauty, intelligence, success, wealth, etc) are distorted and artificial, which drives people to believe they are insufficient and ostracized
I firmly believe that engagement-based feeds should be heavily regulated, the same way that other addictive behaviors have (e.g. tobacco, gambling, etc.).
Have standing lunches/dinners/coffees or even facetimes with your friends. I do them monthly with most. If you need to cancel, so be it, but having it pre-scheduled helps tremendously.
People who live in London, how did you find a solution for this? I am interested in hearing what you tried. I am in my very early 30s. Single male. I didn't feel up in UK. Moved here I my 20s.
Eliminate the Internet. I'm not joking -- it's much, MUCH harder to be lonely if you don't have Amazon, Instacart, UberEats, and social media fulfilling various needs in your life.
In my opinion - just do it. What you want. Message someone you haven’t talked with for years. Ask someone out. Smile :-). Say hello. Strike a conversation with a stranger.
I am somewhat suspicious of this loneliness epidemic. 81% of Americans are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied with their personal life[0]. And my personal experience is that both close friends and general civil community is easy to find[1]. I wasn't trying at all so it can't be that there are any real constraints here.
I don't think [0] is showing what you think it does.
> % Very satisfied with the way things are going in personal life
That Dropped from 65% in 2020 to 44% in 2025
> Record-Low 44% of Americans Are 'Very Satisfied' With Their Personal Life
Also focusing on the raw percentages of these style reports is challenging, due to socially desirable response bias [0]
The fact it is dropping is the important part, it is a relative measure, not a absolute one, and I am sure Gallop would change there questions/responses in a modern survey that didn't need to maintain compatibility with historical data.
* Gallup (not Gallop) has the English questions and responses in the PDF at the bottom of the page. They will also respond if you email them so you can check if wording changed significantly.
* Yes, I am pretty sure the Gallup thing is showing exactly what I think it does considering I said "81% are [somewhat] satisfied or very satisfied" and the Gallup survey shows that 81% are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied.
* The fact that the Hacker News community was enthusiastic about the thesis of a loneliness epidemic during a period when satisfaction was rising casts aspersions on "the fact that it is dropping is the important part". When satisfaction was rising, there were still posts on that where everyone was agreeing about how bad it was.
I was looking at the PDF [0] and [1] and [0] calls out:
> In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.
``QN5:Personal Satisfaction is a binary question``, with a category for refused/didn't know that WAS NOT OFFERED IN THE QUESTION, with an additional question asking about very, sort of etc... They call out `QN5QN6COMBO: Personal Life Satisfaction`
I can't answer the HN sentiment straw man, the DELTA from previous results is what is important. Using it as an absolute scale would almost certainly be discouraged if you asked them via the email address in the PDF.
Basic statistics realities here, and Gallup knows the limits far better than the comment section here. And they understand that "81% are [somewhat] satisfied or very satisfied" especially when presented as two trivial properties, has limitations.
Once again they asked:
> In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in your personal life at this time?
Then followed up with:
> Are you very [satisfied/dissatisfied], or just somewhat [satisfied/dissatisfied]?
Note how both of those are binary, with a NULL being an option to mark down as an exception.
I don't think it's a straw man. If it is true that the delta matters and it is also true that at the time when this metric was showing the most positive results and trending upwards, online communities such as this talk about the existence of the loneliness epidemic https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20468767 then one must ask oneself whether this is a property of the online communities in question.
At the time when the gallup poll showed an upward trend towards its peak this community was talking about the loneliness epidemic. When the gallup poll shows a downward trend toward its lowest, this community is talking about the loneliness epidemic. And it's the change in satisfaction that is the most significant. So there are two changes in opposite directions causing the same conclusion.
If this were happening to me, I would ask myself "Am I sure this is a general property and not just a property of me?". Do you find this not convincing to move your estimate of the likelihood of the loneliness epidemic actually existing? If you don't, it's all right. We can leave it here.
> 81% of Americans are satisfied or very satisfied with their personal life[0].
No, 81% are "very satisfied" or "somewhat satisfied". I don't think "satisfied" is synonymous with "somewhat satisfied".
It's worth noting, as the article states, that this is the lowest value in the history of the poll, going back to 2001.
It shouldn't be too surprising that the overall value is high and stable over time. Hedonic adaptation[1] is a core property of our emotional wiring. The fact that the value is the lowest it's been in a quarter century should still be ringing alarm bells. We are not OK.
It's a 5 point scale, so landing a 4 or 5 on satisfaction on a 5 point scale seems significant. Also, when the value was at its highest in that time series, Hacker News had articles like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20468767
The comments there are full of people describing this loneliness epidemic when 65% of people were very satisfied and 90% of people were "somewhat satisfied or very satisfied". No matter what surveys of people's satisfaction with their personal lives show, there appears to be an enthusiasm for this subject of the loneliness epidemic. This makes me suspect that this is less an epidemic than an 'endemic' (if you'll forgive the word).
Regardless, I didn't intend to mislead so I'll edit it to say "somewhat satisfied or very satisfied (4 or 5 on a 5 point scale).
> It's a 5 point scale, so landing a 4 or 5 on satisfaction on a 5 point scale seems significant.
No, it is absolutely not. Gallup is not asking "on a scale of 1-5, how would you rate your satisfaction?" They are asking:
"In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in your personal life at this time? Are you very [satisfied/dissatisfied], or just somewhat [satisfied/dissatisfied]?"
When it comes to surveys and social science the specific wording of questions has a huge impact on the results.
Sure, and 81% of people are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied. And the loneliness epidemic thesis was popular around the time that very satisfied was at its peak of 65% (when somewhat or very satisfied summed up to 90%).
Did you read the article you cited or are you just evaluating the snapshot of numbers?
> WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Forty-four percent of Americans say they are “very satisfied” with the way things are going in their personal life, the lowest by two percentage points in Gallup’s trend dating back to 2001. This also marks the continuation of a decline in personal satisfaction since January 2020, when the measure peaked at 65%.
> Record-Low 44% of Americans Are 'Very Satisfied' With Their Personal Life
And then to link to your own blog post as though that were a supporting citation is strange to say the least.
My blog post is a more detailed expression of a sentence that starts with "my personal experience". I think that's fine.
And of course I read the article. That's why my sentence explicitly says "satisfied or very satisfied" whereas the text you quote only selects the "very satisfied". One can imagine that if I had only linked without reading I could not possibly have guessed 81% correctly either.
I'm not saying "just stop being depressed". I'm questioning that any significant portion of the population is depressed. I think that's valid.
I can only speak anecdotally from what I have seen in TikTok videos and TikTok comments, and yes, a significant portion of people in society are very depressed, and drinking/smoking/screwing their way through it, putting on a Joker smile.
I think certain populations have this effect, yes. As an example, teen suicides have genuinely risen in the US in the post-smartphone/post-social-media era. So I think the evidence (suicides are not subject to measurement error as much) is pretty strong that certain populations (all teenagers, for instance) are encountering unhappiness to a great degree.
But TikTok is renowned for having an algorithmically tailored feed that is specifically engagement maximizing. While there are some selection effects in the people one encounters in normal life, surely one must concede that an algorithmically tailored feed maximizing engagement cannot possibly be anything but highly selected.
Answer: You CAN NOT and no amount of money, parties, socializing
will ever work.
Loneliness is an emotion, you can never get rid of your emotions,
but you can control them. Some people more so than others. I'm never
alone anymore, because exactly what is quoted below from avensec
in the thread.
Quote from avensec:
"Personal anecdote: No amount of community would have helped me
feel like I wasn't alone, because I needed the world around me
to provide some sense of my self-worth. It felt counterintuitive,
but for me, I had to learn to be alone. Only then could I feel
like I wasn't alone. It all came down to attachment theory and
self-worth."
I dont know the solution but few things that are root cause:
- Internet and Social Media
- Neighborhoods no longer are walkable especially suburbs at least in America. Kids are not encouraged to go bike to their friends place anymore because of traffic risks.
- High Trust societies have degraded into "lets keep ot myself, I can't trust anyone these days". Decades ago, you could just walk into a neighbor's home and say hello. Now, you need an appointment just to talk to a neighbor or are too worried what they will think of you.
- No real friendships after school/colleges. This is a huge deal once you are out on your own in the real world. Work relationships are meh at best and with remote work nowadays, it has become even worse.
- Even if you join a club or activity, they are too "planned" and "robotic". For example, my kids take a dance class and they said they don't like it. I realized why. There is no break. They don't even get to spend like 30 mins with other kids socializing etc. There is a fixed schedule. You go, you dance, you leave.
But this is the world today. So I don't know how to fix it.
Data from various studies, including those from academic institutions and public health organisations, supports the idea that regular church attendance helps reduce loneliness by fostering social connections, support networks, and a sense of community.
I have been going to a church half a year now, and the sense of community is amazing, made new friends and know more people I could dream of. So there is a way, there is a light. Never felt lonely again since.
For what it's worth, I tried that a few years ago. It worked for a while. Then I realized that my church relationships were paper thin and that I'd be forgotten the day I stopped coming and/or I started showing that I didn't really believe in what was preached.
Got better connections through improv acting and role-playing game.
I'm no fan of religion, but the situation you described is true for pretty much all social hobbies. It's just one of the early steps in making friends. First you do stuff, then you meet people through that stuff forming acquaintances. Then you spend some time forming setting-specific friendships. It's fine to have lots of these, but the next step is to break out of that specific setting. Starting with immediate invitations to adjacent events ("Hey, want to grab dinner after our workout?", "Want to grab lunch after church?", "Hey, want to hit the bar after work?"). Once you have a habit of doing that, you can escalate to invitations to non-adjacent events. ("Want to go to a concert this weekend?"). Do that ever 1-2 months, and you've got a general friend.
The problem is you can't really just go to church to make friends without at all believing or supporting the rest of it. Similarly you couldn't go to a hobby group while entirely disliking the hobby, hoping to just get friends out of it and leave.
I've entertained the idea of going to church. My understanding is that a non-trivial number of people going to Unitarian Universalist churches are openly atheist and completely comfortable with that. So the preaching ends up being more about general good community ideas and less about dogma.
I have not decided yet that it is a good fit, but I am definitely thinking that I should foster some community connections outside of my own family.
I was involved in a UU church for a few years. It's a weird organization, and very unstable, with another revolution sweeping in new leadership (and completely new culture) every 5 to 10 years.
When I first started going, it was VERY open to atheists and secular humanists. New leadership sweeps in, and there's a mandate to focus more on "worship" and other religious jargon... and let the atheists know that while they can be fellow travelers on some of the social justice stuff, they're not really in the fold.
Last I heard, that leadership wave had themselves been swept out under controversial circumstances. But by then I was long gone.
I could never really get a straight answer on WHAT we were supposed to be "worshipping", given that UU's don't profess faith in any any particular deity or pantheistic concept, etc. I finally reached the conclusion that we were supposed to just worship the leadership's political beliefs, and not think too much or ask questions. In fairness, maybe that DOES make it a real church?
As someone whose childhood included attendance to various churches, this mostly reflects my experience. That's not to say that it can't or won't produce deep connections, but it is in my estimation more unlikely than not, particularly if there's anything about oneself that the church doesn't agree with or if commitment to that particular denomination hasn't been established.
Personally speaking I find the need to conform to the church's norms/expectations to not be ostracized at minimum chafing and in the worst case stifling. The third place and social aspects can be nice but being told how to live and exist isn't.
That’s possibly useful on an individual level, but not a solution. If existing institutions didn’t solve loneliness yet they aren’t going to without changing something.
Promoting church attendance might help, but so would any number of group activities the issue is why that stuff is in decline not that stuff not working.
As a kid I went to church with my family and it was full of nice people who wanted to help others and were very kind, lots of my parents friends were and are from church.
Unfortunately, it is gut-wrenching for me to be in church. I feel terrible, because I simply don't believe any of it. To stand there and be phony and pretend to love and believe in Jesus just kills me.
Unless you grew up surrounded by nonbelievers I'm guessing half a year ago wasn't the first time you've ever been to a church and there's a little more to this anecdote.
You don't have to be a believer to go to church. Have an open mind, don't belittle it to the people there just like you wouldn't belittle someone's interior decorating who invited you into their home, and don't hog all of the potato salad at the post-service lunch, and you'll be okay.
I’ve been to churches before (accompanying a friend), but it’s very difficult to take any of it seriously. Sure I can be pleasant and respectful, but it’s hard to get much out of it knowing what you now know about them.
> supports the idea that regular church attendance helps reduce loneliness by fostering social connections, support networks, and a sense of community.
Correlation does not establish causation. Regular church attendance dominantly occurs among people who have shared values (clustered around what the church teaches); that doesn't imply that an outsider can just choose to fit in.
If it's not your thing, it's not your thing, but if 'lying' is really the only barrier, note that a lot of churches actually consider it part of their mission to work with nonbelievers and would take something like "I'm not a believer but I'd like to learn what it's like for you all" (or some other true formulation of your intentions) as a valid form of interest.
my problem is Credits/€/$ (or lack of) and the loss of trust in humans.
currently without job and it looks grim. without money you're cut off of life.
also learned that people will exploit you if you let them.
i have no family & no friends. and hate being alone.
can't do anything about money, but being alone is better than the opposite.
no idea what to do about others, can't even help myself.
joint families. In India those who have joint families – I live with siblings and parents in a multi-floor house with a floor for each sibling family. We party, visit temples and celebrate festivals/holidays together and don't need anyone else to join us.
We also catch diseases together and help each other out during such times.
It was conscious decision to remain together and not something we inheritted.
While this might sound unusual, I have a cousin that felt incredibly lonely when they came to the US for work and decided to go back just to be closer with the extended family.
That being said, Im not sure if this is actionable advice for people that don’t already live in societies where this is a thing.
All the other comments are wrong. The only right answer is: “Your mom was right, it’s that damn phone (and TV).”
I was a big YouTube addict, and last year I did a full year of YouTube detox. I didn’t watch any videos at all, and my social life exploded. I was meeting new people every day, deepening my connections with old friends, and going to more social gatherings than ever before.
By the end of the year, my only problem was that I had accumulated too many friends and acquaintances and didn’t have enough time for all of them.
So yeah, it’s that damn phone. And if anyone says otherwise, they’re wrong.
Easy, same as obesity and environmental problems: fix the built environment by building places for humans, not cars. It all stems from that in North America.
Cults have been viciously slandered by mainstream information sources, often because lurid cult stories generate clicks and headlines. Of course some cults are abusive, just like some marriages are abusive. But we still think marriage is good in general.
If you think all cults are bad, you're implicitly against all religion, since every mainstream religion was once a cult. Being anti-cult is also profoundly un-American. America was built by cultists. Freedom of religion is literally the first principle stated in the Bill of Rights.
A cult is really just a professionally managed social environment. If you trust professionals like lawyers, doctors, or teachers with their respective duties, there's no reason in principle you shouldn't trust a cult leader to manage your social environment for you. Of course you should vet them, ask about their reputation, etc.
If you identify with that problem,
and you want to solve it,
and you are open to advice...
Go to church, and be intentional to connect. Find a bible study, fellowship group, volunteer opportunity, or prayer meeting. Sit at church on Sunday with somebody from the bible study. Get lunch with one of those people. Find somebody at church who shares a hobby. Do your hobby together.
You have to put in the effort.
Growth is uncomfortable.
Real connection takes time.
Maybe you find something similar in other spaces, but I am certain you can find it in church.
there isn't a loneliness epidemic. There is a diffuse inability to stay truly alone. Acquiring that ability would also teach how to not stay alone when needed.
Otherwise, people wouldn't resort to social media. Going to party aimlessly and hanging out isn't necessarily better. It depends on who you hang out with and what you do.
You need both. My sense is that only a minority of people are hardwired to preferably live as hermits. And whilst it's an important life skill to be happy alone, everyone has their breaking point, it's no coincidence that one of the best predictors of longevity is how rich ones social life is.
I'm not talking about being hermits. But if you have one hour alone, you could learn to be happy with your own mind available. Of course most people (not hermits) need social relations.
I think the big solution consists of many small solutions. One problem I identified is that social media platforms (1) decimated local live music events coverage in mid-sized cities and (2) placed live music events into the same "filter bubble" algorithm as everything else, making it difficult for people to discover what is going on nearby.
I started https://musiclocal.org, a 501(c)(3), as a curated live music events platform for my local area (and hopefully others). We list all the live music events in the area, and we optimize the software for usability, performance, SEO, etc. The goal is to make discovering local live music events as easy as doom-scrolling. We have had an outstanding reception in the area we serve. We are not self-sustaining yet, but I am optimistic about our chances. As a non-profit, we do not do any of the dark-pattern garbage that has become omnipresent in social media and other consumer software. We just do the right thing as best we can.
Here is some more background (from our "Issues" page):
At MusicLocal, we focus on the root challenges facing local music communities to address endemic issues of negative social media practices, isolation and community polarization, and economic concentration and monopolization. Specifically:
• We believe convenient, comprehensive live music event listings are critical to reversing the decline in local music journalism.
• We believe ethically designed, steward-curated live music event listings provide a vital alternative to addictive social media platforms.
• We believe that making live music more visible and accessible encourages in-person interaction, strengthening communities and alleviating loneliness and social isolation.
• We believe that local live music listings are a critical component of strong local economies, helping to lessen the negative economic consequences of big tech and music industry monopolies.
---
"Technology has a purpose, and that purpose is to do good and to share" --Steve Wozniak
We need an open-source dating / social platform that isn’t designed to monetise loneliness.
We’ve outsourced forming relationships to profit-driven systems that trade comfort and convenience for reduced real-world social effort. By substituting the need to approach people in person, these platforms quietly erode social confidence and reinforce avoidance, exacerbating the social problems they claim to solve.
my social life got pretty busy once i had multiple kids in school and having to go to various events etc, and i have formed genuine friendships with many of the other parents
my “soulless suburb” has a much stronger sense of community than any big city neighborhood i ever lived in
For me, the answer was smoking. I made a ton of friends that way. Always went out to a pool hall, a bar, or a nice patio so I could smoke. It was great. You can’t smoke in your rental so you gotta get out and find places to smoke. Few states you can do it in anymore though. I moved to a state with a smoking ban and quit smoking, no point to it. Don’t get out as much nowadays.
I watched this video that proposed that the way to quit phone addiction was to give your hands something else to fiddle with, proposing that in older societies, people spent massive amounts of time on mindless hand work like weaving baskets, knitting, sharpening spears, etc.
Step one might be to stop calling it the loneliness epidemic. Loneliness is an emotion, isolation is a condition, and we might even expect that if people felt lonely more often they would try harder to be social and actually be less isolated. This is also a network effect: my reaction to my loneliness affects someone else's loneliness if I go talk to them (or not).
Build human scale cities with narrow streets and lots of outdoor parks and easily accessible reliable and frequent public transportation.
Not our American excuse for cities ruled by automobiles and asphalt everywhere with very limited options of all of the above.
PS - I imagine I’ll be downvoted because the epidemic is world wide and not unique to the US. That said, our acute situation is unique in that our infrastructure literally steers you into loneliness and no chance of randomly bumping into people and striking conversation.
It's not perfect, but I've managed to make some friends on Bumble BFF, https://bumble.com/bff-us/ . If you are more of a one on one person and feel awkward in groups, this is the best thing i've found so far
oh yeah, my perception was that it was 75% gay, but, I think the grindr comparison is unfair, I think I've only been propositioned once or twice and no unsolicited dick pics!
Well, let's start by confronting and acknowledging the very strong case that we -- "we" here being the tech world in general, and the audience of this site -- bear a heavy burden of responsibility for it.
It could be argued that it was all inevitable given the development of the Internet: development of social media, the movement online of commerce and other activities that used to heavily involve "incidental" socialization, etc. And maybe it was. But "we" are still the ones who built it. So are "we" really the right ones to solve it, through the same old silicon valley playbook?
The usual thought process of trying to push local "community groups," hobby-based organizations etc is not bad, but I think it misses an important piece of the puzzle, which is that we've started a kind of death spiral, a positive feedback loop suppressing IRL interaction. People started to move online because it was easier, and more immediate than "IRL." But as more people, and a greater fraction of our social interaction moves online, "IRL" in turn becomes even more featureless. There are fewer community groups, fewer friends at the bar or the movies, fewer people open to spontaneous interaction. This, then, drives even more of culture online.
What use is trying to get "back out into the real world," when everyone else has left it too, while you were gone?
Not everyone has left the real world, only the people who got really sucked into the online/social media world. This can maybe seem like the whole world though, if you're in that bubble.
Bars are still packed on the weekends, people still gather at churches, or gyms, or bowling leagues, or book clubs, or any number of other "IRL" activities of all kinds that are going on. You do have to make the effort to go out and get involved though, nobody is going to come and rescue you.
Many of these activities have gotten extremely expensive or just died out in the majority of places. There's 2600 bowling alleys in the US compared to 4000 20 years ago. That's a decline of 35% without accounting for population. Last time I went to a bowling alley the price for a lane without drinks was 100 dollars for an hour and a half. This isn't even in a very high cost of living area. Besides a place like the gym can hardly be considered a place where people gather, most people just see it as something functional and would rather not be disturbed (I believe this has gotten 'worse').
I agree with the fact that it's exaggerated online but when you see these kinda numbers in the vast majority of activities which were affordable for most Americans not too long ago it's not solely to be blamed on individuals.
I believe in the majority of the country things will only get worse with how little value is placed on being involved in things for 'community'. People have gotten more anti-social because of social media (and just media in general).
Most tech workers won't be as impacted by this I assume, they can afford paying 200 dollars for bowling without thinking twice, same with many others of the upper middle class.
IMO it is not possible. The world has changed. Until modernity, people made connections out of economic necessity. Either you get a wife or have fun farming by yourself - literally it doesn't work so you die. Either you're friends with the baker or you don't get bread or get absolute shittiest-quality goods and you die. And so on. Shut-ins didn't exist because it was physically impossible to survive without leaving your room. No UberEats, no Amazon Prime, no remote work, no internet.
When the economic necessity to form relationships with others disappeared, the naked truth was exposed - most people don't fucking like each other. Yes, when you're starving to death you'll be friends with the guy who has potatoes, but when you can buy the damn potatoes yourself in the supermarket, you're not going to tolerate his smelly ass.
Most friendships form over common participation in a project. Doing something together, knowing that you have to put up with the other one to achieve higher goals. Without those goals, there are no incentives to deal with others. And what goals am I supposed to have if by doing nothing I already have a roof above my head, full fridge, clean house, and an entire library of video games?
Think about the main message of feminism: "Girl, you can make it in life without a man. Don't settle for an aggressive alcoholic just because that's the only option. You can do it yourself.". It perfectly captures how forming relationships turned from an asset into a liability.
For clarification, "Kingdom Hall" is "Jehovah's Witnesses".
You know, the people who knock on your door and you pretend you're not home, because having a conversation with one of these people is about as fun as colonoscopy prep.
From wikipedia: ” An epidemic (from Greek ἐπί epi "upon or above" and δῆμος demos "people") is the rapid spread of disease to a large number of hosts in a given population within a short period of time.”
As with covid, individual actions are not enough to stop the spread of the epidemic. You need vaccinations, health education, public policy etc. not just individual actions, so ”go dancing” and ”talk to people” doesn’t quite cut it.
Seems strange to me that at this site from the whole internet people don’t seem to see the connection between the raise of new technologies and lonelines (with a host of other mental health/social issues). And therefore this is the one problem the nerds don’t seem to be able to solve…
I cannot either, but I think we need to start looking at technology from a point of view of public health. Some sort of sociology/medical studies on the effects of computing on human body/mind and society.
> Seems strange to me that at this site from the whole internet people don’t seem to see the connection between the raise of new technologies and lonelines (with a host of other mental health/social issues). And therefore this is the one problem the nerds don’t seem to be able to solve…
It doesn't seem that strange that a website with a few thousand geeks isn't able to solve a global phenomenon by commenting on an article.
HN is a place for discussion. It seems unreasonable to expect world changing outcomes.
I suspect the "think global, act local"-motto applies here. You can certainly make a local impact by "going dancing".
You missed my point. You cannot find a solution to a problem if you don’t first correctly analyse the problem. My criticism lies in the fact that most answers (not all however) analye the problem from an individualistic point of view, not from the systemic, ignoring the technological aspect. Which is a bit ironic one must say.
This comment will get buried in the sea of individual responses here since I am too late. But for the dumpster divers, here is my contribution!
1. People have obscenely high standards for social interaction. If this person is not an outlier (in a good way) with their behaviors, it's just not going to happen. Most people have a very low tolerance for new people in their life. This has always existed to some degree but people today much prefer to listen to endless content from their favorite streamers, comedians, etc. and form parasocial relationships.
2. The environment for interacting with people has much higher stakes. Think about all the people who get recorded and posted on TikTok every single day. These are people doing it where you can see it - not just the Meta glasses people who remove the recording light. You can act like being a weirdo has no consequences but everyone has this extremely powerful device that can broadcast whatever you do to billions of people immediately - and you can suffer real consequences from this. Every crashout you have in any kind of crowd will be posted for eternity so that the world can see.
3. There is less and less benefit to having social networks/friends. Your friends aren't going to help you get a job, buy you a house, or meet your spouse. Meeting a spouse through friends is increasingly rare as online dating is dominating. As much as everyone complains, it is the major way people meet their spouse in major cities. People assume this is because friend networks are getting smaller but it's not due to that. It's because standards for interaction within friend groups has changed and standards for partners has changed. Unless you are prolific top 1% social maximizer, you are not going to run into anywhere near enough eligible people in your social network to meet your maximized match. We expect to completely maximize and find the best possible fit for our spouse now. Compromise of any kind is considered worse than dying alone. Cost of housing has exploded, jobs have become very hard to keep/find, and this turns everything into a transaction. Living with friends and kicking them out when they can't make rent is a tough but very real situation. People are more transactional because the economy dictates its necessities. Your family is the only thing that will bail you out - your friends can't overlook you skipping $2000/month in rent for 6 months.
There is more but anyway - loneliness epidemic is not going to get solved. It will continue to get worse until some kind of revolution which would require a complete reworking of our entire economy. I would accept this as the new normal and try to figure out how you can optimize your own individual experience in spite of all these things that are working against you. It is not worth trying to fight it on a systemic scale because there are simply too many components and the core cause is one our entire economy is based around. (A good investment is inherently counter to affordability)
i wonder if a resurgence in social clubs like the Elks club/Moose lodge would ever catch on.
i don't know how big they ever were in the past, but it seemed like it was commonly represented in media in the 50s/60s (e.g., the flintstones had a parody of the lodge which would suggest that they were common enough that people were familiar)
Well, first, props to you because you're actually doing something to initiate contact. That's a really big deal; more people need to do that. (Maybe even some that don't wrestle with loneliness.)
But what's you're next step? Someone comes up and marks that they feel really lonely. Do you get contact information? Invite them to something? (Invite them to what? You may have to create something - a board game night at your house, or a "lonely people shopping together" time at a grocery store, or something. You probably have to create that "something", because you're the one who's able to at least reach out, and the ones who are responding probably aren't there yet.)
You're finding people that need something. The next step is to find a way to connect them - with you, or with each other, or with someone.
For any activity you come up with, some people won't be able to, due to time or temperament or personality or something. So maybe what you need is more than one. (Eventually. Look, don't get overwhelmed by that. Just one is the next step, in my view. And maybe some helpers.)
So your proposal is to start an ad hoc friend group with people who come up to me, and try to become friends with them personally?
I'm not sure I'm the right person for that. I live in a suburb, not the city that I do the surveys in. And I'm extraordinarily boring, and too old.
It seems that I should try to think bigger. Try to find a way to help these people connect with each other. Something in person, not an app like Hinge. Maybe, hold a sign that says ad hoc meet and greet at such and such time and place, after collecting a list of common interests and putting those interests on the same sign that says the time and date. That could work.
In my city, an older guy organized an “urban hiking group” where he would plan walking routes through the city, usually stopping at a restaurant for brunch. It was very popular, but probably a lot of work. He was semi-retired, so he had the time to do it. He did research to have talking points on the history of some spots we passed, like a tour guide.
It was a great low key meet up. You didn’t have to make friends with the organizer. If you were walking with someone you didn’t really like in the group, it was easy to drift to talk to someone else.
Because voluntary association isn't really allowed in the United States. You are forced to associate with people you don't want to, for a variety of reasons.
I wouldn't say I've "solved it" because the concept predates how bad things got. I had a life-changing realization on 01/01/01, but it was before the necessary technologies existed. So, I've watched, partially in horror, as Fuckerberg and others transformed the internet culture I helped shape into a candy-coated digital Inferno, a full-blown Dante in disguise.
I'm going to make a post and see what kind of feedback I get. But if all goes well, bro, you'll know it when you see it, and maybe you'll be there helping.
Loneliness epidemic started 30+ years ago. There were books written in the 90s about it(bowling alone). Nothing modern can be blamed on it. If anything, social media is helping the crisis; not causing.
The 'fixes' has been established for just as long. My nearby 'community centre' was built in 1987. Has this been successful at all? Not in the least bit.
The reality of what is causing this hasnt changed. Without fixing this key problem, the crisis obviously has continued for 30+ years. I'm not nostradamus here. However, from many previous conversations it's crazy how absolutely nobody is ready to talk about the cause. They'd rather just call it a paradox or feign ignorance for why this is happening. Honestly it's rather conspiratorial creating when you think about it.
Out of curiousity I asked what gemini 3 pro thinks.
1. Revival of third places.
As if that hasnt been tried for 30+ years... fail.
2. replacing 'socializing' with "service"
The idea is that cleaning a park will somehow make you less lonely is laughable at best.
3. Bridging the generational gap.
Elderly teach the young skills? while youth teach digital literacy. My community centre literally has this. F mark.
4. Urban design and walkability.
We need to spend trillions of dollars to completely redesign and rebuild cities? lol what.
5. digital hygiene
social media is a sedative? crazy.
I love gemini, but man they are getting it so wrong. All of this will likely just caused the crisis to be worse in my opinion.
To me, has this been done unintentionally through the typical 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' or has this been intentionally done and maintained? The refusal to acknowledge the cause seems to push toward intentional. Guess we just live with the loneliness epidemic.
>We need to spend trillions of dollars to completely redesign and rebuild cities? lol what.
That doesn't mean the point is wrong.
The US bet on the wrong urban planning ideas, and now it is facing the consequences. This is not unique to the US; other places have fallen into the same trap.
The USA is designed around trains and large communities. Leading into cars from horses and suburbs. This design and walkability far pre-existed the loneliness epidemic.
As for otherside, could this help the situation? Very much doubt it and reallocating a trillion $ means you have to defund a great deal of other things. Never happening, and likely to make the situation that much worse.
This feels overly cynical and reductive. A problem existing for 30 years doesn’t mean modern forces haven’t made it worse or changed its shape. Bowling Alone didn’t argue “nothing can help,” it showed that social participation declined as work hours grew, commutes lengthened, communities hollowed out, and institutions lost funding.
Those trends didn’t stop in the 90s, they accelerated! I lived through it myself. Social media isn’t the sole cause, but it clearly displaces time, lowers the incentive to show up in person, and offers connection without obligation.
Saying “community centers existed in 1987” misses the point... they stopped working when participation stopped being the default and became optional, inconvenient, and socially risky. People feel worn out and get "good enough" at home... so they choose the poor substitute. This also mirrors american food consumption habits.
This doesn’t require a conspiracy. It’s an emergent outcome of optimizing society for efficiency, mobility, and consumption instead of continuity and belonging. Service, third places, walkability, and intergenerational spaces aren’t magic fixes... and loneliness isn’t solved by “hanging out,” it’s solved by repeated, role-based, low-friction interaction where people are needed. We all but know how to fix this problem, there are piles of research behind it.
The real failure isn’t that these ideas were tried, it’s that we stripped away the economic and cultural structures that made them functional at all, then declared them ineffective. Pretending that nothing structural can help just guarantees the problem.
>This feels overly cynical and reductive. A problem existing for 30 years doesn’t mean modern forces haven’t made it worse or changed its shape. Bowling Alone didn’t argue “nothing can help,” it showed that social participation declined as work hours grew, commutes lengthened, communities hollowed out, and institutions lost funding.
That's a fair point, but as I said, I see social media helping the situation, not worsening.
>Saying “community centers existed in 1987” misses the point... they stopped working when participation stopped being the default and became optional, inconvenient, and socially risky. People feel worn out and get "good enough" at home... so they choose the poor substitute. This also mirrors american food consumption habits.
It doesnt miss the point. The good enough is better than what is available not at home is the point. They are going to the best option. It doesnt mirror american fast food, i dont agree with that analogy.
>This doesn’t require a conspiracy.
That's very fair, i dont want to create the conspiracy theory but... I really dont want to go there but when discussion is so dishonest and refusing to accept the real cause(s) or really just the single root cause. Then it sure does feel this way to me.
>It’s an emergent outcome of optimizing society for efficiency, mobility, and consumption instead of continuity and belonging. Service, third places, walkability, and intergenerational spaces aren’t magic fixes... and loneliness isn’t solved by “hanging out,” it’s solved by repeated, role-based, low-friction interaction where people are needed. We all but know how to fix this problem, there are piles of research behind it.
Been tried extensively without success. At some point surely you try something else or give the reigns to someone else who is willing to have do the "wrong thing"
>The real failure isn’t that these ideas were tried, it’s that we stripped away the economic and cultural structures that made them functional at all, then declared them ineffective. Pretending that nothing structural can help just guarantees the problem.
I'm a IT guy and not a politician or whatever. My speech isnt changing anything at all. Declaring them ineffective is just a report card from me. Surely you cant fail to fix a problem for decades and think we shouldnt try to do something different to solve the problem.
What's super interesting is that this is NOT history repeating. This is practically the first time this has ever happened.
I know in my jurisdiction, it was largely speaking about 1984-1988 when the crisis started.
I have considered starting my own political party with the goal of fixing it, but I expect absolutely nobody would vote for me and nobody is ready to discuss it.
> I have considered starting my own political party with the goal of fixing it, but I expect absolutely nobody would vote for me and nobody is ready to discuss it.
This is self-defeatist again, if no one tries, nothing changes. It might take a thousand failures to find the one success.
>This is self-defeatist again, if no one tries, nothing changes. It might take a thousand failures to find the one success.
Fair point. But low chance of success, huge pay cut, social consequences, likely to be exposed to the typical political slander of 'oh that far right commie nazi' crap.
IT wouldnt even be the main thing im trying to fix with the party neither. It's unlikely I even fix it if i had the power.
I’ve discussed this for years, especially since Jonathan Haidt's book recently. Sharing my view is utterly pointless because people aren't ready for the debate.
Even with the root cause, nobody agrees we should reverse it. I’m no super genius, many others see this problem, and politicians are exploiting it.
My comment was more about the bizarre situation and how it makes me feel conspiratorial like it's intentionally being done.
At the societal level this trend has been happening for decades, and not just in the west. It’s a global trend correlated with the degree of integration into the “global machine.” This machine commodifies and extracts. It extracts more money if you’re lonely. If you’re isolated. If community is replaced with cold market exchange. If all your needs and wants are solved with a purchase or a monetized distraction.
Yet even when the system makes it hard to imagine anything else, we’re never too far from our true nature. We need only take a step towards a neighbor and carve a space, no matter how small, separate from the machine. That’s the only way out.
Being happy with yourself and being OK that you're not advancing anymore (you're just happy and don't have anything to pursue), or raising a family. The only two ways.
I don't believe in a 'loneliness epidemic'. Where is it? What do these words mean to individuals?
I do think there is a 'false expectation' ie delusion. Ie, after years of forced hyper-socialisation (school, work) and cultural ideas of friendship (Friends), architecture that stacks and packs people, the expectation that people hold of themselves and their relationships bears little relation to their natural, untrained selves. I could even argue that the loneliness expectation is the reverse - there is no meaningful quiet space for individuals. The very idea of being introspective is a problem to be addressed.
What I think we have is 'broken socialisation'. Nothing about human socialisation is natural.
I would suggest for the crowd here: tech meetups, even online ones and communities will connect you to people with your interests.
Another thing that you'll likely find in your area is a chess club.
Maybe you won't love the chess itself, but it's an excuse to hang out with people.
Another one is volunteering work. Elderly, dogs, etc, many communities need help.
In my village I have started a "clean up" program where average citizens take few bags a picker and we clean areas of our village.
Most of people are "this is the job of the garbage collectors, the mayor should do it", so what? It also costs money, and nobody will do as carefully as the people living there.
Even if 95% of my village won't care few will and we make an impact and socialize, etc and more start taking part of it.
I felt lonely most of my life. Social anxiety didn't help. Therapy did.
Now I build a life focused on that very much. I go to work at wework, talk to people *everywhere*, joined a bunch of run clubs and just prioritize social stuff. If I don't ask people, walk up to them and say hi, nothing's gonna happen. Reach out to people, say hi, do stuff. Loneliness correlates with low agency I think. Say yes to stuff. Ask people to join for coworking, for going to the gym, a run. Whatever. Go out of your way to increase your social circle. That simple.
And get off your fucking screen and go outside, touch some grass. The internet doesn't help.
"Who don't feel that they can join any local groups"
There's your problem. Fix that.
If there aren't any local groups then help create one. If there are, go along, meet some people, see what works for you, join a different one if you didn't like the first one, keep going until you've found your people.
If you feel like you can't go to a group then create a support group for people who feel like they can't go to groups. Or go online and find the virtual space for people like you and then travel to see those people (or invite them to see you).
But there is no fix for you having to socialise if you're lonely. You're going to have to find a way in.
Can we please make this HN discussion stay open forever. This is one of those threads which has clicked me the most. I thank the creator of this a lot. A lot of these comments are super insightful and I wish to talk but I feel and explain my situation but I always sometimes feel like it takes a mental toll. I sincerely love this discussion and have gone I think 75% aruond and its so great to see people similar to us
I wish if this post could perhaps be made an exception or similar where people can talk about this for longer. Perhaps its just me but I wish for something like this avenue in some more time (perhaps right now I feel a bit closed off for some reason) where I wish to talk but words don't come out so much.
I don't know if I am walking around the bush on what I would wish to talk about here because of it right now. I have been trying to screenshot all the posts I could find which are great here and I just don't know, I just want this HN thread/discussion to stay open forever so that I can talk here a month in or two months in when I feel even more comfortbale
The point I am trying to say is that I was losing hope in HN and every social media because of botting and other issues and just lack of trust and direction and irl interactions are few and between. This feels such a great thread and I appreciate the author (I saw their work on their website which is phenomenal)
In a way, I think atleast this thread will help solve or atleast help me (or that's how I feel) in loneliness epidemic and I am grateful for that but I just want this to stay forever.
One of the issues I have in creating a special place for talks like these is that I see very few people sign in//sign up or talk. HN has lots of users and I got some really insightful answers here.
I think its technically possible and I just want the moderators to do this once. Dang if you are reading this, I genuinely hope that you can keep this thread permanent/long time. Loneliness is a real concern and I just feel that some people are unable to reach out (perhaps me right now) and definitely need some right place and right time and if this could just stay or (stay longer at the very least) I would deeply appreciate it sir
Would Hackernews community allow for something like this or be interested in doing this or say, if I were to create this post (or perhaps the OP) every month, would that go against terms or still be allowed.
I think it can be allowed but still just want to confirm if the community really wants this
I saw an aspect of vulnerability in hackernews I hadn't seen prior which made things feel real atleast to me
The main problem I had was that there were too many responses. There's currently over 1,000 comments that are not mine.
I spent all day yesterday reading and responding to them, and there were still dozens of responses that I'm only seeing this morning, often thoughtful and with new ideas or perspectives.
So my plan was to post a series of more narrow focused questions on the topic, once every so often (maybe once a month). What causes the loneliness epidemic individually? Systemically? What policies might help it? What actionable solutions can many individuals try? Etc.
This is already kind of what I'm doing in Chicago. Every Sunday, I hold a sign with a different survey on a related topic. I'd like to do it more often if time eventually permits. In any case, I'm keeping a log of the results and conclusions on my website.
My main goal in this is to be a slowly evolving plan of actionable, concrete ideas, that's interactive, dynamic, and self-iterating.
I think people in general need to stop letting differences rip them apart from each other. I've seen countless friendships crumble over stupid things like politics. (I'm not saying politics is stupid overall, but I do think it's stupid to let it affect a relationship, except in extreme situations). I'm not talking about the Neo-Nazi who openly expresses hatred towards other races, or the extreme other end who insists that anything other than full throated and vocal activism makes you a bad person. Those people are toxic and should be avoided. IME that's like 1% of the population if not less.
Social media has (IMHO) exacerbated this by allowing us to selectively surround ourselves with people we know we'll agree with. It's a nice reprieve sometimes, but it's so, so unhealthy beyond short-term.
Also talking to people in-person is very important. The less you do it, the harder it is, but it's worth doing. The natural humanizing effect of conversing with a person in meat-space does wonders for increasing understanding. Don't talk about topics you disagree on, focus on agreements and common interests. A good friend of mine is a trans-woman married to a woman. She decided to get into target shooting and approached others in good faith, and she said something like (not a direct quote): "I was worried they would be assholes, but it turns out they're just nerds like me, they just love to kit out their rigs".
Another friend of mine fell into the right-wing youtube rabbit-hole and "infiltrated" an Antifa group. He's a good guy overall, but got a very clouded exposure to "the other side." After he was done, he said something like (not a direct quote) "I was actually really surprised at how accepting, respectful, and intellectual most of them were. We wouldn't agree on politics, but they were a lot more interested in real analysis and dealing in facts than I ever would have thought, and we ended up having some good conversations."
Yes there are going to be assholes out there, but give people a chance before jumping to conclusions. You might be surprised! Don't jump in the deep end all at once, and be mindful of personal danger and comfort-level, but don't be so afraid to reach out to humans (in-person) and try to connect, even if you think on the surface there's no way you could get along.
I normally don't contribute to HN comments these days (too much anger in the comments section) but I appreciate your post and activities.
I am a tail-end boomer in the U.S. so my experiences were with a world where socializing was more functional: we shopped in public, played in public, read in public libraries, watched movies in public, rode transit together, etc. Being in public was a requirement, not a choice. While there are still remnants of this older culture still active in today's world in urban life, there are so many options for not being in public that it is simply easier to avoid it. We all want our space in one degree or another.
On the playground growing up, my world was filled with name-calling and backbiting. I was a heavier kid, so that was my burden. Other kids had bucked teeth, warts, limps, they were too short, or too tall, uncoordinated--whatever--nobody really escaped the wrath of the crowd. We were forced, by our parents, to just deal with it.
My parents like many others in their generation recognized this behavior for what it was--natural. Watch an episode of the Little Rascals--you will see what I am referring to.
Most if not all of those kids who were called names and isolated in some way found ways to break out of their pigeon hole: playing sports, playing music, making art, studying hard at school, boxing, singing, dancing, cracking jokes, whatever. Then they were heroes, and the crowd could celebrate them--and they thrived.
I know this sounds overly idealistic, but it is true. I experienced this first hand in a neighborhood of several hundred kids from broken homes, poor homes, ethnic homes, etc.
Voiceless people must find their voice. The responsibility is their's. The crowd will not come to the rescue of the person who won't stand up for themselves and make their way in life.
Loneliness is very, very sad. The cure to loneliness is in the powerful hands of the lonely person. Do whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to work on those things that hold the lonely person back from achieving something--anything--for themselves and then engage with the crowd with more confidence.
I appreciate what you are doing by helping others--that is one of your superpowers. Live a good, strong life!
Your first paragraph is what I've always thought: "back in the day" most people simply didn't have the option to be a hermit. In modern life, your bills, grocery shopping, car registration, hobbies, etc. can all be handled online / in your home.
In my opinion, it takes a lot of time and energy to avoid loneliness in the modern era. So, advice about "just get yourself out there" is technically accurate, but it misses the mark since previous generations didn't need to put much thought, if any, into socializing. Perhaps not everyone is wired to focus so much energy into that aspect of their life and we're seeing that play out with modern amenities?
Unchecked groups like you describe and large part of reason why so many people checked out first time they could. The in person contact they were forced into was not helping them or was actively harming them. People escaped - by leaving those bullies and going elsewhere. It is, frankly, ridiculous to claim that those people found "crowd to cheer them". They either found better healthy place of were lonely. You are describing a playground full of bullies and frankly parents who enabled it are equal assholes.
Following may sound like bad faith, but I 100% mean it. Now, former bullies complain they are lonely as others used the option to leave. Those others may be lonely too, but they are still better off then being degraded.
> Voiceless people must find their voice. The responsibility is their's. The crowd will not come to the rescue of the person who won't stand up for themselves and make their way in life.
Bullies are responsible for bullying. Punishing bullies is necessary part of the solution. The responsibility is not just on victims. And if you push the responsibility on victim, stop complaining that the victim left.
> Most if not all of those kids who were called names and isolated in some way found ways to break out of their pigeon hole:
Social exclusion is psychologically damaging, and often is directed at people who are ND, LGBTQI+, introverted, different culture/skin colour, etc.
I find it troubling that you say "most if not all ... were heroes ... and they thrived". No. You describe abuse, plain and simple. Abuse is not the forge of character development or great art. What you excuse as sounding "overly idealistic" is actually incredibly toxic.
And I know people who are deeply, profoundly psychologically broken as a result of this amazing process you describe that causes "most, if not all" of these people to "thrive".
> I normally don't contribute to HN comments these days
Loneliness is a symptom of the loss of the third place. You can't solve loneliness, but we can as a society look at why many have lost their place for socializing.
Hyperfocus on productivity, the one dimensional man that know only rest and work, and the rise of narcisism and hyper individuality, all causes of the loss of the third place.
Everyone needs to take on the quest to find where they belong, but society needs to give people time to invest in this quest.
So I think it's as simple as working less and spending more time with people.
Affordable home ownership, shorter work weeks, fund community activities, create more spaces where people can hang out without spending money, subsidise childcare.
Every facet of capitalism is trying to push individualism and consumption
I’m quite lonely nowadays. Partially by my nature of being somewhat introvert and partially due to some years of depression where I mostly shut everyone out, leading to more or less no friends anymore. I see a couple guys sometimes for coffee during weekends but that’s all I do socially. It doesn’t get easier to find new friends when you’re 50+, so better do the work while you’re young. I’m mostly fucked by now.
I’ve seen the numbers, but honestly it’s pretty wild for me to read this thread. Many people’s stories paint a picture in my mind of lives that feel devoid of richness, almost like watching an advertisement or a sitcom.
Sadly, I come across this rarely in my everyday life. It would be a richer experience for me to have a more balanced sense of how people are doing.
I was mercifully spared from aloneness by having a powerful and outgoing best friend as a child, and by a nature that ruthlessly seeks “where the action is.” That said, I used to often feel alone when I was with people, specifically. I now call this “feeling unseen,” and it took me a long time to learn that, though sometimes I was just with the wrong people, much of the time it was because I wasn’t expressing myself authentically.
I’ve long since moved to the Bay Area, which, while an odd place, does offer many ladders out of the predicament of disconnection. There are many ways to actively learn the skills of connection here—through therapy, community practice, and structured relational work—and I practiced enough that I can now teach. Many people also learn and deepen their own skills by interacting with the community I’m part of.
The question of whether there’s a solution ... well, when one becomes acquainted with the field of learning the underlying skills that can address loneliness—which goes by many names and has many purported aims—it turns out that the path is well-mapped from pretty much every perspective, and in ways tailored for most types of people. Some of the best books are international best-sellers, and you can just go buy them and read them.
I don’t think the solution, per se, is unknown. The issue seems to be that people don’t know they can help themselves, or don’t believe they can, or perhaps in some cases lack the resources or support to get help.
Most people, I think, are afraid. And if I had to guess at why this seems more common than it once was, it’s probably because many people are no longer being forced by circumstance to confront their fears in the way previous generations often were.
It also seems to me that this is an inevitable result of our urban planning and the rising effective cost of housing since the ’70s.
If you’re such a person reading this who finds themselves alone, the main thing I have to say is: far more is possible than it probably feels like right now. I’ve seen many miracles happen, and correspondingly very few failures among those I’ve seen genuinely try. Paths to wholeness are innumerable—and what worked for me probably won’t work for you—but if you keep trying, there’s a good chance you’ll find yourself somewhere adjacent to where I find myself now: with more love and connection in my life than I know what to do with.
The path begins with acknowledging your fear, and learning to feel and see it as a guide. This doesn’t mean leaping off a cliff; it often starts very small. Go toward what feels terrifying, what feels cringe, what you dismiss or push away. Investigate those things and find out for yourself what’s really there. Once you begin doing this, the path becomes obvious ... it’s right in front of you.
I should add, a very specific thing about the Bay Area that had an outsized contribution to my life was the group house culture. There are hundreds (or thousands?) of micro-communities sharing dwellings in the Bay in a way that's unlike anywhere else in the world, to my knowledge.
I've lived with men in their 60s in these contexts, but primarily this is an option for young people at the start of their careers, which I highly, highly recommend.
Any easy way to work on this problem is to simply lower the barriers to co-habitation. This could look like working to change zoning (I think Oregon has been a pioneer here), building businesses around the concept (many have tried, from small things you haven't heard of all the way up to WeWork), to experimental projects like: https://neighborhoodsf.com/Neighborhood+Notes/Published/The+....
This is an individual problem and an individual's responsibility to solve, imo (Although I do think it's interesting to consider whether a project, company, or initiative could help make this easier to solve for millions.)
Regardless, there are four steps worth taking as an individual: (1) go out, (2) make friends, (3) turn friends into community, and (4) maintain community.
If you're feeling lonely, you're probably failing at one step along this chain.
1. Going out. I don't have a lot of tips here. Except to go to things that actually facilitate interacting with strangers. Don't just go to a bar or go work from a cafe. Go to a meet and greet, an event for strangers to mingle, etc. Or, if you're having trouble motivating yourself to go out, then that's something inside yourself to work on. I find that a shakeup to your life routine (e.g. moving cities, going on a vacation) can provide a good window to change your habits, where you'll start doing things you don't normally do in your home city.
2. Making friends. This one is simple but hard for some. Basically: be personable, smile, engage in conversation, ask questions, be interested, avoid being threatening or clingy, dress and stylish normal-ish unless you really don't want to, etc. Then talk to people at these events, and if seems like you'd like hanging with them and have things in common, ask to exchange numbers.
3. Turn friends into community. IMO this is where you go from the basics into the advanced, and where the most benefits lie. However, most people stop after #2, even though this step is easier than steps #1 or #2, and is extremely rewarding. Community is an in-person social network. The number of connections between people in a community determines the strength and stickiness of that community. Thus it's very important that you introduce your friends to other friends. For example, instead of going on a coffee date with a friend once every month or two, invite 2 or 3 friends to dinner. This has numerous benefits. All of your friends will meet each other, and suddenly they'll know who you're talking about when you mention other people. Also, conversation is easier when there are more people. Also, you'll find events and hangs happen more often, because (a) more people are able to initiate them, and (b) there's more reason to go. People are more motivated to go and less motivated to cancel when there's an event that allows them to see multiple friends at once.
4. Maintain community. People move away. People have silly fights and disagreements and stop talking to each other. People get into relationships and disappear. People get sick, or old, or antisocial, and disappear. Shit happens. So you have to keep doing steps #2 and #3, at least occasionally, forever. You don't necessarily need to do step #1 as much, since the people in your community will naturally bring friends and whatnot to your events. But you still need to get to know these people, exchange numbers, and invite them to future events.
> Countless voiceless people sit alone every day and have no one to talk to, people of all ages, who don't feel that they can join any local groups. So they sit on social media all day when they're not at work or school. How can we solve this?
Solve what? This is the world I have always dreamed of, before even computers became a thing in my life and community. I initially approximated it with books.
on the topic of platonic friendship, I couldn’t disagree more with a lot of the comments. I have plenty of friends yet I don’t do clubs and will never, ever do organized religion. People advising it are religious freaks in my opinion. Some of my best friends took this advice to go to church and bible study. They complain every time I see them about the people in their church. Meanwhile I’ve made more and better friends online. Its not hard, get on social media, find an influencer/streamer that matches your vibes and go jump into the official or adjacent discord community and play video games with people in that community. If you engage in active listening and are a decent person, you will easily make plenty of friends. Additionally, I think in person hangouts are kinda mid, but I hangout with my friends in-person (at a minimum) every other day when I weight lift. Like seriously, I often would rather chill in Discord than go and hang out in-person.
To me the male loneliness epidemic is more about a lack of ability to find meaningful romantic relationships. I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and as somebody who has been doing online dating since it essentially started, I am pretty sure that the problem (or at least a major piece) is that match group has commodified romantic relationships.
I know a lot of people will focus on meeting people in public or whatever, but it has been my experience that dating has become completely garbage and a large part is because all of the current popular dating apps disallow index search and funnel you into swiping. From a mate selection perspective this makes no sense. Not only does it muddy the waters about who is actually a real match, but it also does psychic damage to make so many shallow judgements.
Back before match group bought OkCupid, I used to have excellent results finding people their who shared a lot of common ground with, messaging them with a thoughtful message, and going on dates. Swiping is an absolute crap shoot, and often I feel like I am being used.
Maybe increase the living conditions for people under 60?
All this talk is just about the symptoms, but the cause is that young people are born into a deeply unfair world where losing is by design (so that the baby boomers can continue to profit).
If someone in their 20 can start a family without being financially broken, things will improve.
I was going to post this somewhere else, but I think this story fits.
An old guy approached me and said "put the music on my phone mann".
Alright.
My response:
"Search on YouTube"
He keeps insisting on ME doing it for him.
3 steps
First his data was off. For presumably a while he's had his data off ( it's metro PCs so it's prepaid anyway) and I guess he was relying on WiFi.
Ok.
One click to fix that in the Android tile menu.
His Bluetooth was off too.
Turn that on. Turn on his headphones. Luckily it was already paired.
Finally I had to open YouTube and find music for him.
3 or 4 steps.
Now he's happily listening to music.
But beyond that, he got to introduce himself to me, and I guess the next time he accidentally turns off his data he can ask for help again.
I also like to help people.
Old people are awesome when it comes to this. They'll just ask someone to help them out, that's how you build community.
Don't know how to change your oil ? Cool Billy's a car guy he can help you out. Having trouble with your water pressure, maybe Sarah's a plumber and she can help.
Of course if something serious you're still going to be expected to pay these people, but if it's something quick they'll help you free of charge. Maybe you'll bake them a cake for their kids birthday.
I recall when I was young a neighbor basically gave my mom a car. It was an absolute piece of crap, and out of the goodness of his heart he would come and fix it every now and then.
I didn't realize it as a kid, but if you're passionate about cars and you get the emotional satisfaction of both helping a neighbor and seeing how long you can keep that old car running, that's its own reward.
How many of you would love for a non technical neighbor to say their computer is slow. I recall someone on HN even offering to send out a free laptop to someone in need.
Traditionally communities would have a blacksmith or a baker. That's what that person did and they had a status tied to it.
In modern economic systems what exactly we do is so abstracted away from anything meaningful we lack this connection.
On a very fundamental level people need to feel needed.
Make as many third places as you can. People need to get out to do other things than work, and these should be low cost activities. If you introduce subscriptions and then ramp up prices, then you are the scum of the world.
I have 2 answers to this, depending on how you define "loneliness epidemic"
Genuine loneliness, like what you described, can only really be solved by touching grass. Figure out your hobbies, or find one if you don't have any.
My answer to what a lot of people call "the male loneliness epidemic" as a woman is to say it doesn't exist, you need to figure out how to be attractive. We aren't throwing ourselves on shitty men, and most of the men that complain are complaining because they feel entitled to us and thus put no effort into being attractive. The quickest way to be attractive is have empathy and not be a douche. Listen to peoples needs, and don't feel entitled to our attention
Believe me, us men are not as "lonely" as you think. We can very easily be friends with each other, it's you who has to stop treating us like we're douches by default. We don't bite.
Except you do. Sure "not all men" or whatever but we have to be cautious because there's a non insignificant amount that will rape or murder us if we say no
No, it's not about "not all men", it's not about men as men at all, it's about violent people not being stopped. You assume the worst of us, while we keep assuming the best of you. Women commit violence almost as much as men, but it's underreported because you simply don't have the physical strength to hurt us to the point of being able to report you.
How many times I had to hear the news about a kindergarden teacher beating up young pupils as a punishent? Hell, I was one of those kids, when physical punishment was still accepted, but I don't see mothers and kindergarden teachers being assumed as "child beaters". I'm tired of this rethoric, and I refuse to engage with you further, as you consider my male existence as an inherent threat and dehumanize it.
> The quickest way to be attractive is have empathy and not be a douche.
This would suggest most people are attractive. Is an empathic non-asshole really attractive, even without other things that make him interesting (e.g. travel experiences or interesting takes on things)?
i always thought I had avoided this issue. then i moved to a new town. starting with zero friends in a new town, with very little in place as far as shows, groups, etc, it seems quite a bit harder than it was 20 years ago. meetup used to work but it has become a cesspool of zoom calls and pay meetings. i wish i knew a really good answer (and i dont drink so bars dont have the appeal. by the time i get off of work coffee shops are closed)
I've wanted to try out the "2 hour cocktail party", based on the book linked in this HN comment. The author started doing this after moving to NYC, just hosting a cocktail party every month or so and inviting interesting people that he'd met. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to cover all the classic hosting missteps and pains that I've experienced in the few get-togethers I'd previously hosted:
You certainly have a few hobbies no? Or anything you have been wanting to try for years?
I certainly don't have the time and energy to do all the things I would if I had more free time. There are so many sports/activities I'd like to do but don't have time to, many of those for which I could find a club/class for.
go volunteer. they're needed everywhere. problem solved. most able-bodied lonely people are that way because they can't be arsed to get off the damn couch. they would just rather discuss loneliness on social media. I can't be arsed either, but I don't feel lonely when I'm alone, which is the majority of the time.
Its an issue that is caused by many factors which are mostly related to the way our large scale societies are structured and ran, but I believe it will be solved very soon... By AI. first disclaimer, I am not advocating one way or the other for this just spelling out what I see on the horizon. Very soon AI systems will become a lot more sophisticated then your average chat bot. We will interact with them naturally through voice and they will become more capable in expressing the various nuances of the human speech, conversation cadence, etc... This is where humans will find solace. In fact i believe AI will be a humans best friend, lover, parent, child, etc.... as technology progresses and these things get embodied and so on. This year alone I expect the start of mass adoption of voice agents. But yeah, that's the way i see things play out. If I am right and things go this way, and you are interacting with these things, the smart move is to make sure you own the full stack 100% and not use the api related nonsense that will eventually brainwash you for this or that reason. If you are gonna dig a hole at least dig one that doesn't have the obvious traps in it.
This might be more of a gen Z and zillennial thing but the embedding of black & white purity tests in almost all social settings is a big factor.
You must have opinion and they all must align perfectly like mine. Case and point people's behaviors around the 2024 election.
Russian? You better be the most outspoken anti Putin-ist . Jewish? You better be sorry for the Zionists at every turn. Queer? Oh sorry you work for Google and even if your department has nothing to do with the current bads you're bad too, stop stealing from artists with AI.
Those are some extreme and blatant examples but ones I've witnessed cause people to get excommunicated no matter how bleeding of a heart they have for the causes people rhetorically crucify them over.
I'm not going to pretend you should be fine if say, a literal unironic nazi is trying to cozy up in your book club, or some clown is constantly bringing up "hot takes" needlessly on your baseball club. But these constant purity tests typically remove all nuance and leave both sides heavily alienated, leaving many to fall into a hedgehog's dilemma of fearing interactions lest they're accused of things they simply are not.
I've been thinking recently about the scale at which it seems the vast vast majority of people participate in close to zero public discussion online and what a bummer it is.
Basically all discussion platforms are broken for any sort of long term meaningful discussion which I think is at least part of the problem. Even this thread and this comment just the fact that the thread is now 4 hours old the amount of views and chance of getting many responses drops precipitously. On most platforms unless you are someone with a large following you basically have to think like a marketer and post often and early on posts to stand a chance of getting a discussion going. It's always so ephemeral too. Even though posts on a platform like HN on reddit still exist and you can comment on old threads probably 99% of the activity happens in the first 6 or so hours and then it largely ends.
It makes me miss forums where at least you had long lived threads with simple time based post order and a good chance of replies. This doesn't seem to exist on only platforms now and forums have largely faded away.
The fragmentation of discussion has also messed things up. For example yesterday I was listening to a HardFork podcast episode which is a fairly popular pod, topping the charts in at least the tech category, and after listening I wanted to check for discussion around the episode and probably leave a comment or two. I assume this episode had to have gotten at least in the low tens of thousands of plays though perhaps that is way off. I went searching for discussion and basically found a largely dead subreddit for the podcast with no threads being regularly created for the episode and an empty comment section on nytimes which any site comment section is a useless place for discussion anyways. The pod is also posted on youtube which the youtube comment section had the most activity of anything I found but the youtube comment section and the way it is structured/operates is perhaps the most useless of all the platforms for trying to have any discussion. I just don't understand how if at least say ten thousand people listened to the episode surely at least 1% would be interested in discussing it and 100+ people going back and forth would be a large, active, healthy discussion somewhere.
Even threads that seem "active" on sites like HN or Reddit in the context of the actual audience sizes are shockingly small and confuse me. For example The Pitt season 2 just premiered and posted 5.4 million viewers, the subreddit post ep discussion currently has 5.3k comments which is quite high for a show. That is a joke of a percentage though, 0.1%! and even worse in the context of people that are posting probably post more than once in the thread. I understand many and even most people not wanting to post to discuss a show they just watched but how the hell is less than 1 in a thousand!
This post got long which also damages the chance of any engagement due to TLDR culture.
The basis of community is sacrifice. It must be. If it is all about me and only what I want, then I am alone. In any coming together, giving up some personal desires or preferences must inevitably happen.
For in choosing to gather, we are choosing a time and place. I forsake any other places I could be at that time. I give time that I could have been doing something else. More than that, I am choosing to be with people who may irritate me, or play music I don’t like, or say things I wish they hadn’t. In short, they are not me, and so I’ve got to put up with them.
In doing this, we make space for all of the benefits of community—of hearing about that movie that you’d also like to see, of learning of a new recipe you’d like to try, being amazed to hear the personal story of a friend who inspires you to be more like them. You receive encouragement to keep pursuing the highest good, as best as you can see it— And these people help you see it better. You receive real help when you need it.
The cross is at the center of the church community, and in putting it there we worship this ideal leader, who gave up everything in order to gather his people.
In my short lifetime, I have seen how we are drifting further away from this beloved community. Church attendance is down, loneliness is up. Anxiety and depression have never been higher. During the COVID era lockdowns, we experienced what the utter loss of community feels like. Friendships were broken, churches disbanded, people moved, families were tested. Some came out stronger, and some of us are still recovering.
Years before that I began to suspect that media is stealing us from each other. It’s when we spend more time on Facebook or X than socializing with real people. It’s when we’d rather watch Netflix or YouTube than call an old friend. It’s when we’d rather watch a movie that makes us feel compassion, than to feel actual compassion for our neighbor in need. When we believe the lie, we use screens for a stimulating and pointless tickling of the mind.
It’s more than our individual responsibility. This is a collective action problem. It’s when we don’t call that friend because we believe that they would rather be watching their own show, so we may as well be watching ours. It’s when you would prefer the benefits of meeting in person, but the meeting is only virtual. It’s when teens feel pressure to join social media, because everybody else is doing it. It’s when there’s nobody to play with or hang out with, because everybody else is on their own screen, doing their own thing. Last year, our family decided to rebel against this. We gave up “alone screen time” for Lent. If we were on screens, we would only do it together.
Technology allows us to bypass those near us to connect to those afar. Before screens, the automobile allowed us to do this in the physical world. We could use the new cars and highways to move to the suburbs where we have a garage, nice neighbors and no city problems. We don’t often count the social cost of car culture because it is so pervasive. The cost and effects of parking on the built environment, social isolation, declines in public health, and daily deaths from car crashes are costs we don’t often think that we all have incurred in adopting the car as a technology.
As Jesus walked by, a man on the side of the road cried out: “Son of David, have mercy on me!” When he had the option to bypass the bad part of town, he chose to walk straight through it and engage the people there.
When we unquestioningly adopt every new technology, terrible things can happen. This year, a remote jungle village got satellite internet for the first time. And now many of them are addicted to pornography and social media, which is an even bigger problem in a culture where if you don’t hunt and farm, you don’t eat. In contrast, each Amish community has leaders who decide to adopt a technology based on if it will positively or negatively impact their community. They are open to it, but they are mindful to keep the health of the community first. Had the jungle village taken this approach, their community unquestionably would be healthier.
For most of human history, being in a family and in a face-to-face community was core to our identity and was a non-negotiable requirement for survival. It is only recently we have been able to negotiate new terms with our human limitations. I hope I have helped you see that with every gain of a new technology, there is also a loss. The deception and the lie is that there is no loss. But we must count the cost. For the benefit of our communities, it is time to re-negotiate our relationship with technology.
Many of these comments recommend church. While valid if it works for you, it doesn't mesh with me.
I found community through a shared enjoyment of an activity that must be done as a group. Grass roots motorsports in my case, but any activity that needs you to be there with others should work the same. The key is that you should enjoy it and you should have time to interact with people. I like to make car go vroom, but generalize the approach and it should work.
My first season, I won an event with a hero run that sent me from 5th to 1st. When I parked, a random guy stuck his head in my window and started hyping me up for it. I still think about that 3 years later and it still makes me feel good. That feeling made me want to do that for others.
I started approaching random people I'd seen before and just starting a conversation. It was rough the first few times but it gets easier.
You already have a shared activity so just start with that. I made a point to remember people's names or at least their car (bad with names, but cars stick for some reason). If the name didn't stick, I'll ask again next time and maybe bring up their car so they know I remember them.
When I know their name, I use it when I see them again. Maybe just "Hey bob!" as I'm passing, but something to let them know someone there knows them and cares enough to say hi. They're not a stranger at least. If I haven't seen them in a while, I ask how they've been and spend a bit more effort on the conversation than just a "hey".
It started with the regulars. Now I'm looking for the new faces. I know stuff and they need to know that stuff, so it's easy to talk. If they come back, they should be able to find someone to talk to so I introduce them to some of the other regulars.
I look for people eating lunch alone and I go talk to them. Maybe 2 to 5 minutes, maybe longer. Depends on them. Sometimes I'm awkward. Sometimes I say dumb stuff. Whatever. I'm trying to help these people not be alone at a social event if they don't want to be. If they do, that's fine too, but I'll try again next time.
Some people are closed off and don't really want to talk. That's fine. I still say hi by name and see how it goes. Not trying to push, just keeping the door open. After a few times of trying, a lot of people will start to open up our let the guard down. Some don't.
I'm an introvert and all of this takes extra mental energy on top of the events being competition and work. I don't have the time to compete at the highest level every event because I'm spending time helping others. Rather than getting a better driver in my car to tell me where I'm making mistakes, I'm trying to get the less skilled drivers in my car so they can see why I'm faster. Instead of reviewing data over lunch to see where I'm losing time, I'm trying to build community. I want people to come back. There's a cost to it.
I moved to the middle of nowhere 10 years ago and had no local friends. Work friends are rarely real friends. Tech meets, young professionals groups, nothing came out of those. It sucks to go to a bar alone. None of that produced anything.
Motorsport has been the only activity I've tried where I've started making friends who I talk to outside the events. A lot of it is still about motorsports, but I've gained a few friends who I sim race with or talk to online in the off season. It could have been any other group or activity, but those are the people who made me feel welcome.
Real figures, there are at least 25 people I can walk up to and start a conversation with at an event and have good rapport, more that I know by name and just haven't clicked with, 2-3 people I consider actual friends. I started putting in the effort like this after my first season, so this is the product of 2 seasons of effort (winter doesn't count because there are no events). I'm still kind of lonely, but it's better and getting better.
I think it's that I put in effort. I know I've helped some of those people feel like part of a community. I gave them a few people they could talk to so they didn't feel so alone. Maybe my role was just keeping them coming back until they found their clique. Maybe I need more time to get to know them. Some introverts need an extrovert to help them get started. Sometimes that extrovert is an introvert tryhard.
The reason I do this is cause one guy stuck his head in my window after a run and said something like "bro that was awesome! Nice run!" And he was genuinely happy for me even though he barely knew me. I'm not good at that specific thing so I try in my own way.
I think people look for community. I did. I bounced off a few groups because I didn't fit in. I'm trying to do my part to help people "fit in". Tech solutions ain't gonna help here. Get face to face, make outsiders feel accepted, and see what happens.
from what I've looked into, on an individual level, the main thing I need to do is learn how to be a good company for others. Be for other strangers what I would want them to be for me. But it's easier said then done.
From a practical perspective, there is the whole "3rd place" issue. How can I open a business that caters to the public, who will just sit there and loiter on their phones and laptops all day and be profitable. Starbucks sort of did it in the 90s, but they're not tolerating that anymore.
Forget businesses, can you walk to a park, a beach, a hiking trail on a whim and run into people? Can you hold events, watch parties,etc.. on public places easily like that? It's not easy at all these days.
I blame cars. I despise the idea that electric cars are the replacement to cars, without considering changing transportation so that it is more efficient with trams, trains,etc... The side-effect of that is you run into strangers on public transport. This doesn't just affect the loneliness epidemic, it is in my opinion a direct cause of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, and of course obesity. You can't even be homeless and sleep on the streets these days. Even the park benches are built to be hostile to anyone that wants to chill there for too long.
Society was restructured between 1950s-1980s so that it is suburbanized. It's all about the family unit, single family homes, freeways and roads built to facilitate single family homes (after WW2, starting families was all the rage, plus white-flight didn't help). Shopping centers built to cater to consumers driving from their suburban homes. Malls you can walk in, after you drove some time to park there. Even when you buy food items at grocery stores, pay attention to serving sizes, it is improving a little, but you'll see at minimum a serving size of two typically.
Society was deliberately engineered so that you have more reasons to spend more as a consumer. Families spend more per-capita. suburbs mean more houses purchased, entire generations renting with their bank as a landlord via mortgages, home repair, home insurance, car insurance, car repairs, gas stations for cars where you can get the most unhealthy things out there in the most frequented and convenient places. Make kids, make wives, make ex-wives, get sick the whole lot of you for hospitals, health insurances,etc..
It wasn't planned by some central committees or secret cabal, but it was planned nonetheless by economists and policy makers.
If everyone just got married and had kids, they won't be lonely would they? you don't need to hang out at park with strangers, you'll feel less of a member of your local neighborhood who look and think like you, and start thinking more as one people.
All the interpersonal interactions and opportunities to build relationships with people are commercialized and controlled.
For one reason or another, people are just not getting married in their early 20's anymore, or having that many kids later on like before. Even when you get married, your interaction is by design with other married people, who are busy commuting in their cars to and fro work, kids school,kids sports, plays,etc... imagine taking your kids on busses and trains every day to these places which are fairly near-by, by necessity. you'll be spending time with them instead of operating machinery. They'll be meeting stranger kids from other schools, seeing random strangers all the time, you'll be talking to randos as you walk to the train, wait on the bus,etc.. but this can't be monetized.
Blame the economists and policy makers if you want to blame someone.
If you want solutions, let's talk explicitly about the policy changes that need to happen.
Too much traffic? tear down the freeways instead of building more lanes.
It costs $10B to build a simple metro line? pass better laws to regulate bidding and costs, investigate fraud and waste.
But to dig even deeper into the root of the matter, look at what is celebrated and prized in society. Most of its ills come from there. For most Americans, it is inconceivable to be able to just go out of your house without any plans or destination in mind and just start walking and see where you end up, and who you run into. That's a crucial and tragic ability that's been lost. We really have more urgent things to address to be fair, but ultimately, this can only be solved one small step at a time, but also big sweeping changes are needed. The first step is to define and accept what the problem is, and where the blame and cause lie.
>Blame the economists and policy makers if you want to blame someone.
I wouldn't go as far as blaming, but American society should at least acknowledge their responsibility for this. Its not like the KGB imposed zoning laws in Texas. You (Americans) did. Americans chose the urban model they wanted.
Well the KGB are not economists, so you're right I guess. It was economists and war hawks, suburbanism was also desired because it makes cities a harder target for nukes. Like I said, it wasn't some secret cabal. But there are academics and policy makers behind it. it's important because we have academics and policy makers now too.
It is up to them to change. They won't change, and this "loneliness epidemic" is starting to become really fucking annoying. It is almost a grift now to shit on tech by mids.
These people don't want to go outside or engage with other people.
It is like people who are drug/alcohol/tobacco/gambling/sex/etc addicts. It is up to the individual to change. How is it anyone else's responsibility?
I surveyed a bunch of people on reddit, discords, etc. a couple years ago to figure out why people are lonely, back when this whole "loneliness" movement was starting.
A lot of these people say they have "trauma" or some other mental block as a primary reason why they're lonely (btw they're in discords with thousands of people, and playing online games with OTHER PEOPLE). I'm sorry but everyone has shit going on in their lives. You aren't really that special.
Maybe 1-5% of people have dealt with actual, really horrific trauma, and even they have managed to go on to have fulfilling lives. They chose to move on.
I'm an asshole, no doubt, and I've dealt with my own traumas in the past that were honestly way more fucking horrible than "I'm shy" or "nobody likes [insert some esoteric niche]" and guess what? Who cares? Go outside.
There is no helping these people, or anyone to be honest, unless they really want to make a change. These aren't starving Sudanese or people who live in India or something where you can't just "go outside". Mfs be in CALIFORNIA and crying. I'd understand if they were lonely because they were living in Iraq or Venezuela or something.
The only solution is we build a Matrix, and put all these people into it. I will bet 100% of my net worth and any earnings from my entire lineage for perpetuity that they will still fucking complain and be lonely. I was really hopeful for metaverse, too bad but maybe there's still a chance.
I never want to hear about "loneliness epidemic" again, to me it just sounds like DEI/ESG/Eacc and other bs grifting now to hate on tech. Everything is a choice. You press A in a video game even though you're lonely, why not press A to go outside?
These people aren't lonely, they exist in massive online echo chambers with other people. And honestly? I think they like it. Most drug addicts loved being on drugs even though it was a horrific existence. They don't like it when they're narcan'd during OD. But when they decide to get clean, I am proud that they actually did it how amazing is that? SO these lonely people have to stop crying and step outside.
I'm also originally from India. My thoughts/opinions are my own and based on my experiences, and yes I stand by them. I remember the pollution, the trash everywhere, and I come from a poor family who lived in a 1 room home with no running water and an outdoor commode. My life was hell there, and I have to pinch myself every morning to make sure I'm not dreaming.
You have the right to your opinion, and your own relative experience. You don't need to get so easily offended, relax.
I wasn't being a dick, sry if it came off that way.
> who don't feel that they can join any local groups
Crux of the issue right here. Idiots online keep blasting into their eyeballs that they are worthless and society has already collapsed. All they need to do is go down the road and join a club or a church or something.
Especially for users of this website. Almost all clubs are in dire need of a webmaster.
If you have young boys in your life then teach them that it's ok to feel and express their emotions, and as they get older that their sexual self need not be frightening and that sex can exist outside of narratives of domination.
This requires them to have spaces where they can express themselves sexually without the fear that male sexuality will be judged as inherently violent or oppressive.
I've lost count of the times I've seen women praised while men were castigated, in the same space, for expressing any kind of honest sexual preference.
Why should we lie to them? Nearly all NSFW content takes the most extreme forms of taboos related to social oppression and ratchets them up well past 11. Almost no one in the USA can even begin to relate to sex in ways that don't involve "domination", or "race", or some weird Freudian familial relation, etc.
Ultimately, we need to begin by destigmatizing the male libido. Simply saying "male desire is good and it's fine to have it" is literally heretical anywhere except among gay men. Men never got any kind of sexual liberation. Young boys need only to look at their own usually mutilated manhoods to see what modern society thanks of their desire.
To even begin to teach them that they can relate to sex without domination, first teach them that their own desires are not evil.
> Nearly all NSFW content takes the most extreme forms of taboos related to social oppression and ratchets them up well past 11. Almost no one in the USA can even begin to relate to sex in ways that don't involve "domination", or "race", or some weird Freudian familial relation, etc.
Yes, we live in a patriarchal society. That same patriarchy is at the core of our modern loneliness. Teaching young people that "it doesn't have to be this way" isn't lying. Telling them it's the natural order of things is the lie that ultimately tears people apart because their bodies know differently.
> To even begin to teach them that they can relate to sex without domination, first teach them that their own desires are not evil.
It's an annoyingly double-edged issue, and one that I believe neither side of the political spectrum (speaking in very broad strokes here) has addressed well at all.
Though I usually consider myself progressive (to an annoying degree to some), the progressive "answer" to young men right now on how to find friends and partners is essentially something like:
> You should just be yourself!
> But, if you aren't practically perfect and even slightly express your social and physical needs you are a monster.
> But, even if you are perfect, we reserve the right to hate you based on experiences with other people of your gender, or because of your privilege, even though you probably have never felt it, and we're also allowed to make fun of you because of said privilege, since making fun of you is "punching up".
> Also, you also should accept that you will *always* be considered a threat to half the population due to how you were born, and if you don't accept that or even try to prove the opposite, that makes you even more dangerous.
> If you aren't happy with this you are an incel, and don't even mention the word "misandry", that's not a thing. The only way to change this is to either be gay or transition into a woman.
Obviously I'm employing a bit of hyperbole for emphasis and this is also me trying to empathize with what it's like being a boy right now despite lacking first-hand experience. Luckily, most women do not feel this way about men, but I've heard all of this said by my friends at one time or another (and I might have said something similar myself during my weaker moments, when I was upset).
Meanwhile the hardliners on the opposite side of the spectrum espouse the idea that actually men should be evil because it's manly. That women are lesser to them and that patriarchy is super cool actually. See Andrew Tate as an example, who has captured the ears of millions of teenage boys around the world. At first it's hard to comprehend why his ideology speaks to them, but you have to remember that most of them are just entering the time of their life where they have to figure themselves out, where they have to, for the first time in their life, find friendship, respect and companionship on their own outside of the family or the playground. And after all, everyone wants to be loved and respected in some way, and Andrew Tate offers them an answer: You can be an asshole and still be loved and respected, while the leftie answer tells them that you can be as perfect as you like, but you probably still won't be loved and respected, and if you fuck up, don't expect any grace.
And now the question is what should society actually do so that both young men and young women can find a harmonious place in it? I think really the only answer is to stop playing the blame game, stop trying to make one side the constant bad guy and scapegoat, try to comprehend that we are all equally human, and that whatever a person's gender is doesn't give you the right to be shitty to them. I don't know, maybe this is simply another utopian idea, of men and women living together in perfect unison, never being mean to each other. I think we should still strive to achieve some sort of balance, but sadly I don't really see an easy answer to this.
Sorry for this long rant, I've wanted to put this into words for a while. Occasionally I think about how bad it must be being a teenage boy right now, the thought scares me and I feel lucky not being one. Every time I read another woman saying that she's afraid of every man on the street walking in proximity to her, and every time it's dark out and I hear a man behind me and I get physically afraid, I think, what if I was a man and she was afraid for her life because of me? Just because I exist in the space next to her? Just because of a random coin-flip during my conception? And it feels awful. I don't want anyone to go through that.
My experience suggests that Tate is talked about far more (like, orders of magnitude) than actually directly heard (unless you count fair-use clips in attempts at critique). The strongest advocates I've seen for the rights and well-being of men in general, and young men in the dating world in particular, have come from across the political spectrum in other regards, including literal socialists.
> It's an annoyingly double-edged issue, and one that I believe neither side of the political spectrum (speaking in very broad strokes here) has addressed well at all.
Where would you expect to see it addressed? bell hooks wrote The Will To Change more than twenty years ago.
I'm not familiar with The Will to Change, but a former Internet associate of mine wrote a multi-part critique of Feminism is for Everyone many years back. As I read along I had to agree that it simply isn't nearly as sympathetic to men as bell hooks seems to have thought it was. Just as many other supposedly softer takes on feminism aren't. In particular, there's a refusal to acknowledge the harm that feminism has actively done to men, and the fact that there very clearly are people and policies out there that actively seek to harm men because they are men. In "liberal" feminism, everything bad that happens to men is rounded off to "the patriarchy hurts men too".
(The promulgation of the term "patriarchy" is itself an example of the harm I'm talking about. Feminists and other progressives will insist that the meaning of terms cannot be divorced from their etymology, and cite questionable-at-best etymology when complaining about words and campaigning for replacements. But then they have an entire canon of words that were deliberately coined to associate masculinity with harmful or undesirable things and femininity with virtue and resistance to oppression. As Karen Straughan put it: "[Feminists are] not blaming men, [they] just named everything bad after them.")
When I look it up, the summary I get from Amazon is:
> From New York Times bestselling author, feminist pioneer, and cultural icon bell hooks, an evergreen treatise on how patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurts us all.
Honestly I can't continue the conversation. You say the thing you want isn't being said. I say it is and point you towards it, but you're discrediting it based on a second hand account of a different book or a single paragraph summary. I've read all your points and I'm telling you man to man that this is your book. You can take it or leave it.
I blame the on-line attention economy - which always rewards yet-more-extreme reactions, positions, and performative "virtues". But attaches zero value to actual pro-social behavior.
> See Andrew Tate as an example, who has captured the ears of millions of teenage boys around the world. At first it's hard to comprehend why his ideology speaks to them,
It is super easy to understand. He tells them they are superior and that feels good. He tells them they are entitled to dominate others and that makes them feel powerful. People LOVE to hear they are superior over others.
And all your complains about progressives boils them to them acknowledging that Tate adjacent people exist, that philosophy runs in top levels of the government and the rest of us have to react to it. Like, all your complains about progressives are super mild compared to what conservative people say and think about the rest of us.
> And now the question is what should society actually do so that both young men and young women can find a harmonious place in it?
There is no harmony possible when the woman is degraded or subjugated. There is only fake harmony possible when it is not allowed to speak about threat of Tate like conservatives, because someones feelings might be hurt.
> I think we should still strive to achieve some sort of balance, but sadly I don't really see an easy answer to this.
There is no balance with "I think women are inferior and should be mistreated".
> Every time I read another woman saying that she's afraid of every man on the street walking in proximity to her, and every time it's dark out and I hear a man behind me and I get physically afraid, I think, what if I was a man and she was afraid for her life because of me? Just because I exist in the space next to her?
In the context of male gendered violence literally promoted by conservative thinkers, it is women talking about the impact it has on them who is causing the unfair harm to men. This is absurd.
This is, frankly, a thing feminists books claim and I did not believed is a real thing. Except here you are, writing exactly those words.
I'm sorry if my use of words like "balance" implied that I want a balance between real violence against women and some people being mean to men, one of those is obviously a lot way WAY worse than the other and I did not want to imply that at all. I just suck at writing down my thoughts. :)
I'll also concede that I used a lot more hyperbole to exaggerate how bad men must feel when faced with some (very non-violent) push-back in a progressive environment, and I was a lot less descriptive with the actual assault, rape, murder and violence that women face under the patriarchy, represented by the other side with my example of Andrew Tate. I did not mean to equate those two and be "pick-me"-ish, but I see how you can come to the conclusion from my comment.
Mostly I wanted to say that although societal misogyny is a whole lot worse than any hate aimed at men (and again, I want to emphasize that women suffer a LOT more under patriarchy than men do when women are slightly mean to them because of said patriarchy, I really do NOT want to equate the impact of those two!), I still think the proper response is to try to reach an understanding that every human in front of you is unique and isn't defined by their gender, skin color, race any more than they are defined by their hair color or the tone of their voice. This is pretty idealistic and I will not fault any woman who feels unsafe being alone at night with an unknown man around, after all I feel that myself, too, plenty of men have been shitty to me...
This is also in regard to assumption, if the man you are talking with chants "Your body, My choice!" then that's not an assumption anymore, he's made the choice to be actively horrible, the nice peaceful approach is actually not possible with this man, and this counts for many men who are possibly less overt than that, whether they're mostly nice in person but actually support politicians who erode women's rights, trying to explain it away with some argument about taxes or whatever, or whether he laughs when his friends make shitty misogynistic jokes. But plenty of men don't. And I kind of feel bad for them, that's it.
Really all my hyperbole was only to be read from the perspective of a man who ACTUALLY does not deserve the hate, because I do know some as my friends.
Anyway, I have to admit your response has been really painful to read since that was the exact way I did not want my comment to be read as, but it's fair enough, I just hope I was able to clarify some points, because I believe we actually agree on most issues, even if my comment can easily be read as shitty misogynist apologia. Like I said, I'm really not good at communicating.
> It is super easy to understand. He tells them they are superior and that feels good. He tells them they are entitled to dominate others and that makes them feel powerful. People LOVE to hear they are superior over others.
By the same token, it feels bad to be told that one is inferior and deserves to be subordinate to others. Which is messaging that, as a man in contemporary society, I receive constantly, and have been noticing for decades. Despite knowing on some level that it is BS.
But there was a period (this specific thing seems to have improved) when everyone would have been subjected to this narrative in any advertising break on any TV channel in the US or Canada.
> And all your complains about progressives boils them to them acknowledging that Tate adjacent people exist, that philosophy runs in top levels of the government and the rest of us have to react to it. Like, all your complains about progressives are super mild compared to what conservative people say and think about the rest of us.
First off, feminism vis-a-vis the issues of men has nothing to do with progressivism vs conservatism, except in the minds of American political tribalists.
But my own primary complaint about progressives is of the exact form that you describe (except perhaps substitute "academia" and "bureaucracy" for "government").
And in my own experience, it's not common for "conservatives" to say anything actually objectionable about "progressives" (and it's frankly inappropriate to assert what they think outside of what they say or otherwise overtly indicate), even in the US. On HN for example those comments are quite rare and almost universally flagged and killed. Whereas live, upvoted comments decrying the supposed current "fascist regime" are all over the place and the large majority of political submissions are clearly only there because they could be used as an excuse to fulminate about Trump, Musk, Thiel etc.
> There is no harmony possible when the woman is degraded or subjugated.
But this by and large is not actually happening. People like Tate are ultimately irrelevant grifters. I can't even name any "Tate-adjacent people". In my circles, Warren Farrell has way more name-brand recognition. I would never even know about Tate but for people complaining about him. Even other critics of feminism and progressivism rarely bring him up, and then only because of the specific manner in which he is attacked.
And, again, framing this as a two-party conflict is entirely inappropriate reductionism. "Conservatives" by any reasonable definition have no common cause with someone like Tate. The lifestyle he promotes is utterly opposed to "traditional family values".
> In the context of male gendered violence literally promoted by conservative thinkers, it is women talking about the impact it has on them who is causing the unfair harm to men. This is absurd.
This is a bizarre misrepresentation of what you're quoting.
First, it's unreasonable to present the quote as if it denied harm to women. It does not.
That said, the statistics make it clear that the fear is largely unreasonable; men do not report feeling fear in situations that are objectively much more dangerous to them.
But most importantly: you are repeating the conflation of Tate with "conservative thinkers", and conflating a very specific approach to conduct in sexual relationships (and the attempt to form them) with random assaults (physical and/or sexual) on the street by strangers. That is the absurd thing here.
> This is, frankly, a thing feminists books claim and I did not believed is a real thing. Except here you are, writing exactly those words.
I don't know why you'd have to read feminist literature to find the claim that men are afraid of being falsely perceived as sexual threats just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could just ask men.
Women are constantly told that a man in that place at that time would be a sexual threat in ways that men can obviously hear. Men are told it, too. Feminists even resist well-meaning education about personal safety, calling it "victim-blaming" and then turning it around to describe ways that entirely innocent men ought to go out of their way instead.
I have nearly had anxiety attacks when I walked into a nominally unisex bathroom and saw a feminine hygiene disposal unit and no urinal. Or when the men's bathroom was out of order at a shop and the clerk said to use the women's instead.
(And all of this happens against a backdrop of refusal to acknowledge that men can also be raped, including by women. Even the language used to describe female teachers sexually assaulting their male students is different from that used for male teachers and female students. I've heard women say those male students should consider themselves lucky. It's disgusting.)
I'm sorry that people like Andrew Tate still exist, in some number, who will say the kinds of things that validate your narrative. But in my experience, there are way more people who are willing to say the mirror image of it.
> that their sexual self need not be frightening and that sex can exist outside of narratives of domination
This makes a ton of sense but the language needs so much work here to be digested into a real conversation by your average parent, let alone preteen/teenager.
I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. The loneliness epidemic is relatively recent, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't something young boys were taught in the past.
It's more that they need to unlearn what society has been telling them for the past couple of decades. Young boys in the past weren't brought up being essentially told they are monsters and that expressing preferences is "objectifying women" etc.
HN has some odd people that don't jump to tech solutions for everything. Plus I'm banned from reddit for 3 days for making a dark joke, and besides, my reddit post asking the same thing went nowhere. At least people here engage in good faith and depth.
I actually wanted to suggest government funded online dating, so we aren't beholden to godawful Tinder and its clones (OkCupid was great for me until it got bought out and turned into Tinder).
I have a slightly different angle on that - Government mandated open algorithms, exposure of sort factors (are you in the back of the line in the swipe queue), and monthly disclosure of male/female ratios. Yeah, it'll effectively crush their business models and then they actually need to start solving the problems they've created (extreme superficiality, not background checking users, not addressing bots, not acknowledging that US has an implicit class system)
I'm trying to figure out if I have enough energy to try to pitch this to my representatives office, but I don't know if 30-40% adults never marrying or falling birth rates would be arguments that democratic politician would care to act upon.
They probably didn't like the "government funded" part. I don't think I disagree. I'd hate to see what a government operated dating app would look like under my government. I doubt someone like me would be allowed on it.
May I suggest that the political divide is extremely harmful? I don’t understand why [other camp] is so hateful, socially excluding at the first sign of our political leaning, etc.
I agree we also need to organize activities, but when social circles are occupied by the other camp with a witchhunt bonus, it is discouraging to try. And recursively encourages political extremism.
Incoming comment: “Not our problem, don’t be a Nazi.”
Are you talking about the US? If so, I heard this proposed on a podcast “Grey Area”. Mandatory two year draft for all, regardless of gender. It sounds crazy at first but it kind makes sense the more you think about it.
I think I get what you’re trying to say but realistically, it doesn’t add up. The draft was 33 years. The US is only 250 years old (give or take) so over 10% of our history had conscription. The Vietnam and Korean War was widely unpopular because it was the first broadcasted war. People watch their family get blown up on TV. It had nothing to do with “freedom to serve military”.
If you argue a draft is counterproductive because it a waste of resources and we have better means to serve young adults, I could buy it. But arguing a draft is not the American way because it’s “our freedom to decide what we want” is a bit silly.
I do absolutely agree that I wouldn’t trust the current administration or culture to faithfully execute on this idea though.
You have to be the one who creates things to do.
Really, that’s it.
You want to play D&D together, you host and DM.
You want to just hang out, you reach out and propose what you’re doing.
You want more purposeful and meaningful time, join a volunteer group you vibe with.
Even if it’s meeting for coffee. You have to be the one who reaches out. You have to do it on a regular cadence. If, like me, you don’t have little alarms in your head that go off when you haven’t seen someone in a while, you can use automated reminders.
I have observed my spouse (who is not on social media) do this and she maintains friendships for decades this way. Nowadays she has regular zoom check ins, book clubs, and more, even with people who moved to the other coast. You do now have the tools for this. I have adopted it into my own life with good results.
Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live. We have a wealth of passive entertainment, often we have all consuming jobs or have more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did. We move to different cities for jobs, and even as suburban sprawl has grown, you’re on average probably further away from people who even live in the same city! You get from place to place in a private box on wheels, or alternatively in a really big box on wheels with a random assortment of people. You don’t see people at church, or market day, or whatever other rituals our ancestors had. On the positive side, you have more tools and leisure than ever before to arrange more voluntary meetings.
I love this but I think you'll be surprised at your success rate. Everyone is struggling with this, not just you. Right on the heels of covid we were debating whether to have a NYE party or just go to a friend's house for a low key thing. We were paralyzed a bit feeling like, why we weren't invited to other parties ourselves? Won't everyone already be busy doing other stuff? In the end my wife took the leap and invited a ton of neighbors and friends. Guess what?? Almost everyone showed up! Which means all those people were going to be sitting at home feeling bad and wondering the same thing. You just need to believe and get over it, people want to hang out. We've all just gotten out of the habit.
In my experience, the problem is not a low success rate, but the burnout from being the only person that invites people to do things. At a certain point you want to see some reciprocation to create community. It can definitely happen, but a lot of folks still fall back on the habits. You have to invite and then also start asking people who's gonna host the next one and get them on the hook, and then not burnout from being a constant organizer :)
There's a few problems, at least in the US:
1. Hyper-perfect social media / television setting "the best" expectations for an event.
2. Decreased knowledge of how to host a gathering. It's not rocket science, but throwing one the first time can seem daunting. And throwing one well does take skill. E.g. icebreakers, identifying and facilitating the right introductions by highlighting mutual interests, making sure wallflowers have a good time, defusing tensions, food, etc.
3. Decreased American tolerance for and ability to handle awkwardness, and there's always going to be some awkwardness in social interactions.
4. Decreased public/accessible American meeting places. There used to (< 2000) be a plethora of low-cost, broadly-accessible spaces that could serve as training wheels for events (handling food, furnishings, cleaning, etc). They've essentially all been privatized, commercialized, and optimized to turn seats -- think real coffee shops disappearing in favor of Starbucks.
I believe this. My recipe for not burning out is:
- lower expectations (my own and everyone else's). I work out the bare minimum that would work for the event and do that. People need food. They don't need music.
- tell people how to contribute: "bring snacks and drinks", ask one specific person to bring ice. when people arrive I often give specific tasks: "can you find someone to help move the table and chairs into the other room", "can you sort out music"
- do it the same way every time so it's less mentally taxing
- get a friend to help with setup
Ah, success through lowered expectations! This has been my mantra for the last 40 years, and it has worked surprisingly well. I started out with a New Year’s resolution to not intentionally consume significant quantities of human flesh, and have worked my way up from there.
It may seem ridiculous, but it’s a form of stoicism adjacent philosophy that presumes nominally more control over one’s circumstances, and it has had excellent outcomes for me. Ratchet forward but expect modest clicks and be delighted when something goes right or someone comes through.
> I started out with a New Year’s resolution to not intentionally consume significant quantities of human flesh
ծ_Ô
Well you know, probably everyone is constantly swallowing some of their own dead skin cells. Nobody's perfect. So I'm not going to feel too guilty when I cheat and buy a human-balogna sandwich every now and then, especially if they're free range.
This thread sounds like a very modest proposal.
An easily achievable resolution for the vast majority of people.
Yeah, the phrase "significant quantities of" is really throwing the whole comment for an unfortunate loop. Maybe "I choose not to steal any vehicles" or "I choose not to commit fraud" and work up from _there_ instead of somehow trying to faux-normalize cannibalism. Very strange indeed.
That's why it's funny sourpuss.
When a stranger posts online joking about cannibalism, you never really know…
It’s surprisingly difficult to not eat a little human flesh. People nibble on loose skin and the insides of thier mouth a little, you end up swallowing blood, and there is often a tiny bit of human biomass in processed food.
Ergo the “significant” qualifier. Imagine the sense of defeat to fail in your New Year’s resolution to not resort to cannibalism by years end… so you have to be careful how you define your test case.
If I were a cannibal, it would have been an ambitious resolution, but the whole point was success through low expectations.
But fair enough, people tend to be touchy about people eating people, and rightly so. No way that ends well as a mainstream practice.
Well, I added that after realizing that it wasn’t uncommon to accidentally eat small parts of your mouth, fingertips, things like that in the course of a year, and I was not about to fail in my quest to reject cannibalism for the year. I mean, for me, that would have been a new low.
problem is you slip up once and you've blown the entire goal. The OP's resolution feels much more AA-style, it's about not stealing cars any more
I'm assuming this is referencing "taking a pound of flesh" generally meaning to being cruel in demanding what you're owed (from Shakespeare Merchant of Venice). Presumably they're tired of unloading on people for not following thru or contributing. Doesn't seem like the best use here, particularly so indirectly.
Nope, I meant literally not consuming human flesh as food. After years of unsuccessful New Year’s resolutions, I decided to pick one I was sure I could stick to. Success through lowered expectations.
A man who commits to the bit. I respect it.
You'd probably like the signs I do in Chicago.
"Terrible advice, only $3"
"Awkward smalltalk, only $2"
"Premium snowballs, only $1"
Will be doing one of these tomorrow in fact. Probably in my usual spot.
I mean, it is kind of a bit, in a way, but I really did announce to my social group my resolution, about 40 years ago, and I’ve been ratcheting it up gradually ever since. I have kept my public and official New Year’s resolutions for 37 years running. I’m up to “intentional and senseless acts of violence that end in the injury of innocents“.
You may scoff, but senselessness is highly contextually dependent and can easily apply to something that seemed rational under the fog of circumstance. Thats actually not that easy to promise without forsaking the option of violence altogether, which I am not at liberty to do, since I have a family to protect.
It’s a slow, intentional process. I don’t want to risk overreaching. Still, they are worthwhile goals. Low-hanging fruit is still fruit.
The useful thing to me has been to expect little from people and life in general, but a lot of myself. Then be delighted when things go as they should, or when people come through. It’s a contagious positivity masquerading as cynicism, or maybe the other way around, I’m not sure… but it allows me to focus on my role in things, my choices, my actions, and reactions to the external world. It is stoicism adjacent.
The New Year’s resolutions are mostly an advertising campaign for the overall philosophy, really, by promising people easy success in something that is often a struggle, and illuminating the fact that we choose our successes and failures by how we view external circumstances, not so much by the circumstances themselves.
Lower expectations is a great tip.
I find that the more a group does things, the more everyone chills out. It's like the expectations come from a fear of being judged and from uncertainty. When everyone has information from the last ten events then you don't need to stress anymore, because everyone knows how this one will go and they've all judged one another already.
It helps to remember that you are competing with: no event.
If there are other parties happening and you're trying to make a better one, by all means, go all out. But mostly people in their 40s aren't going to many house events, so they're just happy to be somewhere with people. They don't care that you didn't decorate or sweep the floor or prepare an elaborate meal. You made soup and they're thrilled.
I'd also add that first-event nerves (on host and attendee sides) can be an uncertainty problem. No one wants to misunderstand the dress code, social code, etc. Once people have been together, there are now group norms that assuage that (aka "I know what's acceptable to wear and talk about").
Absolutely. I throw “open houses” with open hours. There will be some food and company and some booze. Probably music. But in the end everyone brings what they can and it rules.
Granted it’s still a lot of effort but it’s low key and I find people prefer that unless it gets enough momentum to become a “thing” haha
Agree with this approach. I've hosted a lot of "work adjacent" events over the years, with no real idea what I'm doing. I've always focused on the intent (why do I want to attend?) and a few crux details; everything else tends to work out or is just not that important. It seems to be one of the areas where "fake it until you make it" not only works but might be superior to ultra-planning.
Once you've got the gist down, try and find one thing that you can go a little overboard on; it makes it very memorable. Examples: I made a big pot of home-made chili once, and another time we did (what looked like) an extravagant nacho bar. It was both better and way cheaper than typical event food.
Definitely enlist an accomplice, but be aware you likely need to (appear to) be the mastermind.
> I've always focused on the intent (why do I want to attend?) and a few crux details; everything else tends to work out or is just not that important
This was my primary takeaway from some time spent doing higher-end catering front of house. You'd be amazed what absolute fuckups can occur on non-critical stuff... and no one even notices.
(Possibly the bride, but that's why we had dedicated bride handlers to appropriately message that kind of stuff)
I’m going to add a strange note here:
I recently moved into a very upper class neighborhood (pacific heights) and enrolled my child in the neighborhood private school.
The social hosting skill I’ve observed and and able to do as well is extraordinarily high. People throw parties, know how to act, are cordial and polite and seem to reasonably enjoy each others company while also teaching their children the same.
This is how I remember mere middle class parents acting in the late 90s and early 2000s but my fellow millennials and z seem to be completely incapable of.
One huge aspect I’ve noticed is that it’s wildly expensive in time and money to host. An open cocktail night cost me nearly 3000 dollars to host. I can imagine this would not be common for Gen Z these days.
That seems to be a very narrow definition of a party. I have friends over for pizza and board games. We've had ice cream making parties. Cheese dinners.
This is fine too. Seems like most can’t even attempt that though.
Can't or won't?
I am a millennial and my parents did no events, since they both worked and had long commutes. I wonder when the middle class entertainment slowed down—I want to guess it’s when you have more two income households, that don’t earn enough to hire home help.
Minimum wages have not increased in decades. Cost of living has increased a lot meanwhile, and the rich vs poor divide has increased. So lower class and middle class are suffering, while upper class have become richer from their labors. In earlier generations, the middle class could work for some years and afford to buy a house (on mortgage). But these days, middle class cannot afford a house, they live in rented apartments. Hosting parties is the least of their priorities, when they are struggling with the monthly bills.
Housing availability and leisure time (afforded by excess income) are probably the biggest components.
And in answer to "When that changed?" from parent, my guess would be mid-90s.
In that generations coming of party-hosting age after that were increasingly less likely to host.
I don't think it's that, my parents weren't two income and never had friends or did events or social things and barely left the house.
My mom would constantly complain she used to be a social butterfly but having kids "ruined" that for her. Which never made sense to me, it's not like she ever interacted with us much.
How the heck do you manage to host a $3K cocktail party?
You can run an open bar with two bartenders for 50 people for that price? (Unless everybody is a complete lush, I guess ;)
I can easily imagine a high end catered party costing that much.
I don't think there is an upper limit on how much hosting a party costs. You can always go fancier if you have money to burn.
Christmas dinner for my immediate family almost $500. That was pretty much dinner and our favorite appetizers but does not count the liquor and wine. This was just me, my ex, five kids, a daughter in law and grandchild. I can see getting to 3k pretty fast.
How did you spend $500 on dinner for 9 people? I hosted Christmas dinner for my family with about 10 adults and 10 kids, and it cost at most $200 divided between 5 families, alcohol included.
Dinner for twenty people at $200 is farcical in the US unless your family owns a farm or something. Going to need more details because I'm inclined to say that's bullshit.
Beer and liquor alone would blow past that figure.
No farm is needed. It's not that hard. I spent about: $25 on a chicken dish (chicken from Costco + ingredients), $15 for baked mac & cheese (ingredients from Meijer), $20 on ciders, $40 on 2 bottles of Cherry Republic wine. The other family members: $20 on raw vegetables and cheese platter; $20 on fruit; $10 potato dish; $10 vegetable dish; $15 on dessert; $15 on salad. Oh and $2 on juice boxes for the little kids (~4 from a juice box 40 pack from Costco). I'm estimating what the others spent, but that's what it would cost me to make the same dishes. That totals to $192.
"host" implies in your home, not in a restaurant.
If your version of hosting is "let's outsource it and just open the wallet", then, yes, sure, you can spend a lot of money. It ain't hosting, though. You failed the "what if I just replaced you with a bank account" test.
Yes, I know what hosting is and $200 for that many people is still farcical.
Well 50 people attended. So. Yea? Two parents for 21 students or so plus a few extras.
GP said 'open bar with 2 bartenders'. I.e. commercially priced drinks, and staff. Did you have those? If so, pro tip, next time just get a few cases of various drinks, plonk them on a table with a bunch of glasses (rented, if need be) and call it good. People can't drink soft drink for more than, say, 3 USD worth in an afternoon; and even if you served 12 years Glenfiddich to everyone including the children, enough of it to knock them all out, you still wouldn't have spend more than $1000.
So yeah still wondering what sort of party you threw. I mean, yeah it's easily possible to spend that much, but it's also possible to do it for much less and you don't even need to really try.
> If so, pro tip, next time just get a few cases of various drinks, plonk them on a table
That's not a cocktail party, that's a tailgate.
> GP said 'open bar with 2 bartenders'. I.e. commercially priced drinks, and staff.
GP here, and no, that doesn't mean that.
It means you hire 2 bartenders to make the drinks, and you buy the supplies they use.
And, no, if you want a cocktail party, you don't "plonk a few cases of drinks on the table". That's also a fun party, but a different kind.
This is not a 'pro tip' this is a clueless tip.
That honestly seems quite cheap for 'very upper class' where I imagine everyone's suited and booted, dressed up for the evening, possibly some live music, etc.
Correct. I did not spring for live music or help.
People surprised by Mr. $3000-cocktail party's expenses are forgetting about class and wealth differences.
Up to a point, expenses are elastic and proportionate to income. Across different incomes, things like "dinner" or "cocktail" mean (and cost) very different things, to the point that someone on either end of the scale doesn't even know what is on the other end. A very wealthy individual might not know about the $1.50 Costco dog, and a less wealthy individual won't know about the $10,000 bottle of cab sauv (okay I'm making that up, I don't know either, but you get the point).
If you have $100k you'll make do with that, if you have 10x more, most people will find ways to scale the expenses accordingly. If you have 1,000x more, that's just wasted cash that does nothing for society, but that's another discussion...
Also bog standard middle shelf cocktail liquor, wine, glassware, food, and additional (forks, knives, small plates, food prep) for 50 people is gonna cost 3k almost anywhere.
I was highlighting partially how it's just generally expensive to host the first time a large group.
What planet are you on? $60/head for a simple party with middle shelf drinks and basic food is necessary "anywhere" for passing acquaintances?
> glassware, and additional (forks, knives, small plates)
Do you guys break all the plates like at traditional Greek weddings?
No you have to buy it for the first time though.
It’s amazing to me how classically foolish so many HN comments are.
I know the US is ludicrously expensive, but 3000 dollars for a cocktail party? Did you have a couple of hundred guests? The kind of party where you can lock in friendships, have meaningful conversations and personally play host tops out around 30 people. At those kind of numbers, you really don't need to hire a staff - you can provide canapés and make cocktails and or have a friend so at very reasonable cost. Source - I had hundreds of (often fairly raucous parties) at my old apartment. Alas I no longer live in a basement so my entertaining options are much more limited.
One is reminded of this - https://x.com/dril/status/384408932061417472?lang=en
I was not looking to 'lock in life long friendships.' I was hosting a cocktail party as a favor for our school at my home and was obligated to ensure the overall experience was somewhat nicer than 'a wild party at an apartment' as fun as that is as well. These are somewhat normal things as part of a knit-community adult life. You have distant people come as well as close friends and open your home. That is ... hosting.
Partly what I was trying to point out is how 'adult life' gets complicated and expensive and most people are understandably just opting out. But at the same time, whats going out with it is just basic manners and social habits -- which is unfortunate.
My point stands - if anything a cocktail party is potentially less expensive to host since you know in advance numbers and preferences.
> These are somewhat normal things as part of a knit-community adult life.
As something of an adult myself (I'm 46), I'm well aware of how community functions. I'm also aware of the 'keeping up with the jones' nature of wealth and how corrosive that is to community - being entirely founded on the selective and exclusive nature of spending.
My contention stands, there is no need whatsoever to spend thousands on a cocktail party. One doesn't need to 'opt out' of social life. It's perfectly possible to serve cocktails yourself, to buy 'off the shelf' brands rather than expensive whiskey etc. It's perfectly possible to prepare your own food, or work with a chef who organises 'super club' style catering, which does not cost thousands.
It's a choice to live this way, not a fate. And doubtless it affords status among other high worth individuals - just as it dooms you to a life of fruitless comparison and ostentatiousness.
This can be said of literally anyone living in the first World.
I find it deeply laughable anyone would stand on a soap box who lives in a modern first world environment and lecture like this while not seeing the irony that they do it themselves at their level as well.
Please. Stop. Look around. And maybe visit a place where you see how the other half of the planet lives. Likely your world is wildly ostentatious and unnecessary comparatively.
The plank in your eye before your neighbor and all that.
for $3000 you can cover a decent 100 people wedding in my country.
California, and San Francisco specifically has become "Hyper-Monoaco without the fun"
Three grand! For a cocktail night?
I mean I've spent a couple hundo at Costco buying booze and food and paper supplies for a party I hosted and THAT was flabbergasting. How the fuck do spend three grand on cocktails? Is it like all top shelf liquor or something?
Hosted cocktail parties are generally not “paper plates and red cups”.
It’s interesting that you’re proving my point. General manners and expectations have been lost
It's a level of excess whose loss is probably a net positive for society. I would argue that there are very, very few cases where such a level is justified.
>> I recently moved into a very upper class neighborhood (pacific heights)
A neighborhood which is sometimes referred to as "Specific Whites" (but only tongue-in-cheek, right?)
> 3. Decreased American tolerance for and ability to handle awkwardness, and there's always going to be some awkwardness in social interactions.
I wonder how much of this is due to our ever increasing sense of obligation to be "performing" all the time. Maybe increased by the perpetual presence of social media and the habits and mindset that both creating and consuming for it creates.
I thought that originally, but I actually think it's more experiential/exposure-side.
Hypothesis: modern society (especially apps) has decreased the amount of realtime, face-to-face social interactions at all stages of life, which has eventually manifested into a decreased average (there are still some social people!) capability to deal with social awkwardness. And consequently less comfort/appetite for putting oneself in situations where it might happen.
I don’t think it’s this. I’ve lived in NYC recently and people there don’t have tolerance for shit behaviors either and you’re surrounded by people all the time.
It’s due to people having higher standards than before and being bifurcated on every issue. There is deep polarization and tribalism within American culture.
Everyone consumes different content and there’s very little homogeneity within our culture. Like… Americans are more diverse than ever in terms of their thoughts and behaviors. They genuinely have little in common compared to many other cultures.
I'll buy that, especially in NYC-like urban environments where frequency of exposure is definitely not the issue. Suburbs and rural may be different.
Part of the increased diversity is unavoidable due to technological changes eroding previous touchpoints. E.g. limited broadcast TV becoming cable becoming streaming.
But there does seem to be an increasing dearth of the logical tonic: discussion-facilitating diverse spaces. Places where people of different opinions can mingle, there are strong social norms around mutually productive conversation (and enforcement to discourage / weed out poison apples?), and that are open to new people.
> Hyper-perfect social media / television setting "the best" expectations for an event.
My approach around this is suggesting the idea to people up front and then throwing everyone into a WhatsApp chat and laying down the plan. Anyone who can't join gets removed/leaves. No one expects a whatsapp group to be a refined VIP experience. It's just people getting together and sharing an experience.
Having moved countries and needing to start up a new friend group, things like Meetup or Facebook groups help a lot. There are _many_ people out there who are looking to meet people.
For throwing a party, my general rule of thumb is expect 50% of people to turn up.
It used to be predominantly women who did it. It was part of being a housewife. Joy of Cooking even has an entire chapter dedicated to hosting a dinner party. But now women work for billionaires too. Nobody has time to work for themselves.
1000%, but I didn't want to make my post too long.
If you want a kick, read through the 1957 edition of Air Force Social Customs [0].
It makes you realize how the art of entertaining has atrophied over the decades.
[0] https://archive.org/details/answerbookonairf00wier/mode/1up
>Decreased knowledge of how to host a gathering.
I have my own saying for this. “Swimming is how you learn to swim”
This. My wife and I built our social life when we moved countries, and we had a group of friends that we'd meet every week or two. But only when we invited them. No-one else in the group ever organised anything. It got really tiring. We could not get anyone else to organise a meet, they always had reasons why they couldn't organise one (but could turn up to it fine). We tried a bunch of things, but nothing worked - if we didn't organise it, it didn't happen. We ended up moving away and the whole social group collapsed and stopped meeting.
I think some people are just the center of gravity, and that particular friend circle revolves around them. Before COVID, we had a friend group that would hang out fairly regularly. Once I left (for a job, not fleeing the city), none of them hung out without me. Everyone was friendly with each other, but everyone also had their own lives going on with their own friends and other circles. While I was the glue for that circle, it wasn't like everyone just stayed at home having pity parties when I wasn't around.
My anecdote might have limited relevance here, but I think it's something worth considering.
Do any of those friends organise anything for any of their other friend groups?
I get the feeling that some people organise, while most people don't. I haven't seen the situation where a person organises stuff for one group, but not for another group. It always tends to be the same people doing the organising for all their friends. At least that's what I've observed, I'd welcome any other observations.
edit: poor choice of words
That attitude, the some people are leeches, to me is part of the problem. If you go in with the expectation that others owe you something or they're bad people, you're only going to be going down the path of not doing it.
yeah probably a poor choice of words, thanks for the correction
"Most people have less than the average number of friends", or The Friendship Paradox:
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
Out of curiosity which country was this?
This was Berlin, but the friend group were all immigrants.
You'll need to get over the idea of this being a shared load.
Every community has one or two people that are "the engine" and constantly keep people reconnecting. Has nothing to do with social media, or Covid - it's always been the case as far as I can think back (and that's the early 80's)
Yes, you can push and prod people to occasionally host, but that's also a ton of work.
Exactly why my parents stopped hosting dinner and cocktail parties. Nobody ever reciprocated, it was a lot of work, and eventually they just stopped.
We've noticed this in our neighborhood. Once a year we host a few families before going out trick or treating with our kids. We buy a bunch of pizza so everyone can eat and don't ask for the other families to kick in.
We were hoping the other families would reciprocate, and maybe invite us to some of their gatherings (especially two families who hang out together quite a bit.) So far it hasn't happened at all, they just receive our graciousness and move on immediately.
> they just receive our graciousness
Or think they’re doing you a favor by not rejecting your invite
Potluck parties help. Then they, generally, at least partly participated. Some people will just bring soda or chips or beer but that's still better than 0.
So you set something up to weasel your way into other "families" friendships by doing a specific thing and then judging their response/non-response? Like A/B testing humans.
Perhaps some people can sense this stuff subconsciously. Relationships should build naturally.
As somebody who does host and doesn’t get a ton of reciprocity, the problem isn’t burn out (because I love doing it). The problem is second guessing whether this is something the group enjoys and whether they are just humoring me.
I also love hosting - but what I’m really trying to do is have particles collide and form bonds outside the larger events. Even smaller scale gatherings, game nights, or hell even a couples dinner invite would be a nice change of pace.
1000x this. Hosts are a minority. The vast majority of guests not only don't host, they are not good at showing appreciation.
Low key this feels why so much of our social life gets productized/monetized.
The lack of reciprocation is a tough one. I think it also helps sometimes to understand that not everyone is good at being the mother goose or the facilitator, especially if someone else is already good at doing it, and it's not because they lack interest or don't care.
I have some friends who very easily lose themselves in their work and the stress around it and if I wasn't the one checking in and basically pulling them away, I'd miss out on what are easily my favourite days out and it has no impact on how much we enjoy each other's company. Maybe one day it changes but until then I'm there for them.
That said, there are of course times where it's better to just let go. But those people were probably never that important to you in the first place.
>In my experience, the problem is not a low success rate, but the burnout from being the only person that invites people to do things.
This is what mostly happened with me, I just got burned out from always having to be the one to organise everything or nothing would happen, which is what ended up happening after I stopped, we just stopped meeting up and eventually grew completely apart.
Now, I'm in a completely different country and I don't even have anyone's contacts anymore. But that's been life for me, people come and people go, never to stay.
I've accepted it by now, it can still hurt from time to time, but it is what it is, one should not force their will onto others, I believe.
It’s easy to find reasons to talk yourself out of action. Maybe you’ll get burned out, maybe you won’t. But if you never try you’ll never know. And you’ll definitely miss out on something special
try and build "the community" outside of the effort of one or a few people. This is hard. My example: we've built some quality dirt jumps for bike riders, and while there's a core group of ~10 people, you don't need all - or any - of them to come out for success. The location is the host and either a regularly scheduled or casual event keeps the community going. If people stop, the community will die and we'll move on.
I sometimes wonder about this, I have a friend who does most of the organizing for parties or whatever. My sense is that there are a few different kinds of people, among those are people who, if they didn't organize parties, there wouldn't really be much of a platform for hanging out for them and others like them, while others are completely isolated, don't organize and don't have any other third space, and others yet have many smaller interactions from many other parts of life that don't necessitate a larger meetup necessarily. If you're an "organizer" type, my guess is that the people you'd hope reciprocate fall into the latter camp; they're happy to show up and have a good time, but they probably have a bunch of other things to explore that for some reason they haven't felt you'd be into... or a bunch of other possible reasons. Asking them to host a party is asking them to fabricate a social setting from thin air, but maybe they just organically don't find that to be something they need to do.
For me, I'll host something for a small group if I get some inspiration, but on a week to week basis I'm often in extremely social third-spaces, supplemented by larger parties (probably bi-weekly). My effort is often best spent meeting people for deliberate, intimate, outdoor sports adventures or coffee hangouts, but the same person I know who tends to organize larger parties doesn't really feel like someone who'd be into these; they can't really hold a conversation 1 on 1 for very long, and they're not super curious or vulnerable or athletic in the way that's necessary to engage in those as much. He's a regimented, scheduled, impatient, person. They often need a sort of fabricated social vehicle (also likes to decorate and host), whereas I get nearly all of my socializing from incidentally being in social space.
I think it's fine to be either of course. It's ok that my organizer friend doesn't like heights, and so I won't invite him to climb mountains, he likes hosting parties, so I try to attend as many as I can.
Note that I don't mean the non-organizer (me) is just passively socializing, it's just that they have different catalysts built into the things they do that extend into socializing easily. I'm DMing 1 or 2 friends, multiple times a week, to do something we both enjoy or just chat while walking around the city. While parties and hosted things are neat, they're just not very good platforms for depth.
Just as well, I do try and be inviting to everyone who'd like to come out and do other things, in general it's important to reciprocate, but I'm not hosting a party just because someone else did.
> burnout from being the only person that invites people to do things
If you get burned out from being the nexus of your social circle, that sounds like a problem stemming from your success
Some people thrive at being the center of their social circle. To me it sounds awful. Different strokes...
Not fun part is that the longer you stay at your home comfort zone the bigger social anxiety grows.
Other annoying parts are if you fight off anxiety and do go out you most likely will run into minor inconvenience like some Karen honking on you or making a fuss in front of you when you’re waiting in line. Minor inconvenience like that refuels social anxiety.
> Everyone is struggling with this, not just you.
Eh, I don't think EVERYONE is struggling with this. I am an introvert, and have no desire to go out and do more things with friends. I get enough socialization with my wife and kids, and don't really have the desire to do more things.
I used to think that way. Then, divorce, custody battle and the dark abyss. No home, nobody to talk to; just silence, loneliness, general apathy of the world around you. It's the trap of the middle-aged man: to focus on work, invest in family, and hope these things will be a constant because you are doing the right thing. We don't have enough emotional bonds, don't know how to create them, and if the wife leaves and takes the kids, there's nothing left.
Sorry to hear that.
I'd use this as an opportunity to do something exciting with your life (if finances permit). Go live in Asia and do the nomad thing, if you're lonely there are a ton of Filipinas who want nothing more than to be a good wife and provide for their family. Try to start a business, take up some kind of art and make an honest effort to get GOOD at it, etc.
Not only that, but you also want to teach the kids how to socialize outside of the family.
> socialization with my wife and kids
So you aren't one of the people that are lonely, because you have wife and kids
I’m also an introvert, I think, but I do feel I would be better off with more socialization than I’m getting.
Though, I’m also single, so, maybe I wouldn’t feel such a need if I were married? Idk.
Same lack of desire to go out and I don't even have wife and kids, or even friends for that matter; just one friend I see once a week. Whatever the appeal/reward of socialization is for most people, I don't get it.
Sure, but this only works as advice for people who you can talk to, such as me. I'm not trying to solve my loneliness, my own personal goal is to find ways to reach out to people who sit alone all day, and are dying from loneliness, and the only way to reach them is to catch them as they walk on the way to the grocery store, and hold up a sign that they can read. The question in my mind is, what next? So far, I've only been doing surveys[1], but I'm looking for the next step.
Piggybacking off your suggestion, I like the idea of holding up a sign advertising a free activity that anyone can join, located in a very public space, with zero committment, so they can both show up and walk away at the drop of a hat. Whether it's an ad hoc organized chess tournament, or D&D game, or "one word story" or literally anything. That will have to wait until nicer weather, though, to avoid having to rent a place.
[1] https://chicagosignguy.com
This isn’t quite true. I’m in the last stages of organizing a record club (basically a book club with a much lower commitment) and I started by talking to a small handful of close friends who I knew were music nerds because I am picky and shy by nature and the most annoying thing is how many people got wind of it and wanted in. People are starving for these sorts of things. Try. Fail. It’s ok, it’s just going to take a couple of us to make a few hits and we can start to sew some of the fabric of society back together.
You can reach people you otherwise might not have by inviting your neighbours around for coffee and cake one weekend morning? Even if you have nothing in common it starts building a community of people who live in proximity to one another.
You have a very interesting website. Do you feel lonely? Your website portraits you as a sad person who has suffered a lot. I wouldn't say you are insignificant at all :) You do certain seem to be quite significant probably to more people than you realize even if it isn't to all the people you wish to be significant to.
I feel the best way to do what you seem to want to do is by meeting people where they are. No matter what you do, the last part of your mission relies on the lonely person. They have to choose to connect to others and then they have to do it. Arguably, that's the hardest part.
I think what you're doing is really cool.
Your instructions to comment on your blog are incredible, come talk to you face to face. If I didn't live on the other side of the country it would be meaningful to tell you what it meant to me in person.
Unfortunately a lot of these require either an existing network or high stakes interaction (sending invites, accepting invites etc). They're good advise, but can be hard to execute on for most people.
If we want to solve this at the society or community level, there needs to be more opportunities for low stakes interaction. Places that people can passively gather around a communal activity. I'm reminded of the ladies dancing together in public squares / parks in China. They're usually a group, but mostly anyone can join in. You can just follow along and interact as much as you'd like. If you want to leave, leave. If you want to stay and chat, stay and chat.
Downtown San Mateo for example has the potential for this. It's already a closed off street where people go. But today there aren't group activities there that encourages passive interaction, people are still in silos. Perhaps if there were some games / puzzles, chalk boards, townhall type of table setup, that'll encourage passive interaction.
They're good advise, but can be hard to execute on for most people.
OP gave the thread a very good and valid suggestion. Treating this as a societal problem - for "society" to solve - is lazy thinking.
If you want something you've never had, you have to do something you've never done.
"you just have to put yourself out there" is lazy thinking, you are ignoring all the underlying psychological and physilogical factors preventing people from doing it.
Making the society more welcoming works. It worked wonders for me. I moved from a country where things like meetup events are not common and groups are less welcoming to strangers. Having moved to UK, meetup events allowed me to go out and socialise because I could sign up without speaking to anyone, and go there and participate in the activity, without the pressure to socialise, it was an optional benefit. These settings allowed me to socialise with strangers that I could never do before.
I know in the US we value individualism responsibility. But the reality is many things are encouraged / discouraged, made easier / harder collectively.
Of course if you never go out of your house, you're not going to have many social interactions. But your environment and the culture you live in makes a difference too. You can quit smoking yourself clearly, but the collective push to discourage smoking has done a lot to reduce the overall use of cigarettes.
When I was young, I solved loneliness very well by volunteering for political campaigns. Until the last one (I'm too old to care now), I worked every campaign in my life and at various times had a lot of good friends as a result.
My town does an annual party. I heard about it and showed up to volunteer. I did that for a few years. It wasn't as productive in producing friends (I'm in a different location than before that is more insular) but even so, it got me out of the house and, for the few months before the event, was pretty much fun.
These kinds of things are often available if you just look around. It doesn't require knowing people ahead of time and is low stakes. If nobody is friendly, it doesn't matter.
"Be the organizer" assumes a certain baseline of energy, confidence, and emotional resilience. For people who are already lonely, depressed, neurodivergent, burned out, or socially anxious, that constant reaching out + rejection tax can be genuinely exhausting, not just uncomfortable
As someone that fits some of the above categories, I think you really have to step back and repeatedly tell yourself "get over it". Its the same mentality to "I dont want to go to the gym today". You immediately feel better as soon as youve finished it and wonder why you always drag your feet before.
> You immediately feel better as soon as youve finished it and wonder why you always drag your feet before.
When this doesn't happen what do you do?
Try something else until it does.
The only other option is to go on being miserable.
I'm guessing your issues were not so severe if "keep trying things forever and telling yourself to get over it" is the epiphany which helped you, clinical depression doesn't go away that easily.
Late reply but in case you come back to this, the thing that helped me out of clinical depression was 150mg of bupropion twice a day for a few years, then I was able to get out of bed reliably enough take up cycling.
If you feel you're clinically depressed get diagnosed and treated in a clinical setting ASAP. Diseases need treatment.
Not trying to be glib, but whats the alternative other than suicide? Keep trying things you know havent worked?
My winning alternative is not to go online and be the mental health equivalent of that survivorship bias fighter plane image. "Just tell yourself to get over it" is advice that can only possibly work because you didn't actually need it.
We eventually believe the words we speak about ourselves.
These two are not really the same.
You generally do not go to the gym and fail, exercising works more or less the same for almost everyone, you get good hormones, you feel good.
Socialising, on the other hand, is entirely different. Some people thrive in it, some people feel much more dread afterwards.
>, I think you really have to step back and repeatedly tell yourself "get over it". Its the same mentality to "I dont want to go to the gym today". You immediately feel better as soon as youve finished it
No, no, no, it's absolutely not the same, OMG, nothing alike. "I dont want to go to the gym today" isn't the kind of profound, all encompassing, and existential dread that attempting to organize a social event is. Especially when you push yourself to organize and it doesn't work out, which has happened to me before. Those feelings are legitimately nothing alike, the fact someone is comparing the two is wild to me.
I do still need to try to overcome it and get over it, but it's not even as remotely as simple as you claim.
This becomes an unlimited excuse.
Even if there were state programs that established and ran these sorts of events and created low-friction ways of interacting with people, people could still say "well that assumes a certain baseline of energy."
It is true that somebody who is in the midst of extreme depression and can't get out of bed is probably not going to be able to set up a local dnd game. It is also the case that the large majority of people are absolutely capable of doing this sort of thing.
If I may suggest to start small, it doesn't have to be a group of people playing football. I personally like to just meet 1 or 2 people to which I can have interaction with all of them.
If I may I made an attempt to crack at this very problem with Tatapp (tatapp.astekita.com). Any feedback is very much appreciated.
I agree. I also don't think forcing yourself to be an organizer is necessarily a solution to fixing the loneliness, as it also just requires a certain passion. In my experience, some people love organizing things, others just really hate it. I am in that last camp, after having organized quite a lot. For me, simply participating with things that are organized by others has done me much more good. Of course, that still requires being in a state of mind where you are able to take initiative with signing up for such group activities.
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
> You have to do it on a regular cadence.
I've posted about this before, but my wife and I sort of accidentally started a trivia team that's been going strong for like four years. Nearly every single week for four years, we get together with some subset of about 15 people. Most the regulars are there most days.
I also started cold plunging and have been doing it with the same regularity as trivia -- nearly every single week. It's a much smaller group, but it is absolutely part of our routine. Rain or shine.
Both these things have given several of us some really great friend time that makes that loneliness fade away.
> I've posted about this before, but my wife and I sort of accidentally started a trivia team that's been going strong for like four years.
I looked through your history and can't find it. (And you say "trivial" and "trivially" disproportionately often.) Can you link to it?
Sorry, but that’s hilarious. You’re searching for a keyword I assume?
Sounds trivial.
Personal solutions to systemic problems are not solutions. Yours is great advice for the few people able to take it to heart, find the motivation, and succeed, but you cannot solve societal problems at any kind of scale this way.
Just like you aren’t in traffic, you are traffic, you aren’t part of the society, you are society.
Every idea like “let’s have icecream socials at..” started as one person’s pipe dream which they then acted on and executed. No one is coming to rescue us. There’s no secret hand guiding humankind.
You definitely can’t solve loneliness for society but you can solve loneliness for your immediate circle by organising activities and that’s already a huge improvement.
In contrast, sitting back and saying this needs to be solved at a higher level does nothing at all.
the parent's comment was what I have been thinking about though... The advice to not be the traffic is kind of just like saying "just try harder"...
I am thinking of a chain of causality like:
People do not plan things, or they flake on events because they're tired. Theyre tired because theyre working too many hours and are obese. They work/obese because because they consume too much. They consume too much because we're a spiritually empty society. (Just to put up an initial draft hypothesis).
I'm thinking if we can solve some of the nodes closer to the root we can have a higher impact than just burning ourselves out trying to deal with the leaf nodes.
Is it true that people are working harder because they consume more?
For me, the chain of events was like this.
I had disposable income > i had no social network or things to do > so i went out and joined a running group and made friends like that.
Others probably choose gaming or something else they can do alone in the third stage.
I doubt there are many people who spent on gaming without first going through the “I don’t have things to do” stage.
I was thinking consume more like conspicuous consumption for clout. There's been lifestyle inflation, i believe due to social media, compared to times when society was more social. I'm running of general feelings here though, not specific datasets.
Somethings that come to mind: Expensive smart phones, fast fashion clothing spend, travel, tattoos, car feature creep leading to price increases and more loans taken, sq foot per person in housing, Food as an identity statement (more foreign/imported/, more protein are two trends I believe are true).
>Personal solutions to systemic problems are not solutions.
That idea is a social problem. I hope a sufficient number of individuals reject that reasoning.
Agree but the flaking culture is too normalized right now, at least in the west. Nothing is more demotivating than majority of people just not coming and doing it in such a non-chalant manner. It's really not fun to put all that work and people don't take the invitation seriously to the point where they jusut ghost the event.
This annoys me: at least say you're not going to make it. I don't expect you always to be free or even want to attend, but how hard is it to say 'Thanks but I can't come.'?
I've been trying to do this. One thing I've observed is trying to arrange people to play board games is quite difficult because you can't predict how many people will show up. People get sick, misread the times, etc. And a lot of games are very sensitive to player count, so having 2 people too few or too many has the ability to make the game somewhat unplayable or risk people sitting out watching.
Easier to just host a party or meetup where you can over invite and if some people don't show up it's no issue.
A friend of mine has this problem with their D&D campaigns. He makes huge efforts and there’s always one or two people who flake or don’t have the same commitment level. He’s gotten quite angry and sad about it.
He is trying something different now, to make a hybrid campaign where there’s a lot of one-shots in a broader story arc. It’s structured like missions in an ongoing struggle.
Maybe if you want to do board games, we need more games that scale up and down easily. I’m not a board game person, IDK.
Tell your friend to look up the Western Reaches style of play. One of the core ideas is that you begin and end each session in a safe zone so that you can have a rotating pool of adventurers. You can tuck in some rules for having mercenaries for when you have fewer than the encounters are balanced for and you’re off to the races.
It does reduce the possibility of highly on rails campaigns and instead requires more of a sandbox plan with one page dungeons and stuff. Even so, it seems made to solve this exact problem.
5-room dungeons: https://www.roleplayingtips.com/5-room-dungeons/
I don't do tabletop, but I do write, and making these is helpful for worldbuilding.
> Tell your friend to look up the Western Reaches style of play.
The playstyle is called West Marches.
IMHO, the important bit of this style isn't so much the player pool flexibility (tho it does help that case), but the inversion of who's driving the story. The DM prepares the world, but it's up to the players to organize their excursions outside of the safe zone, for their own reasons. This forces more involvement of the players in the story, instead of the more passive campaign on rails you mentioned.
So in the GP's case of flaky low-effort players, West Marches style may not help because it puts more burden on the players in addition to just showing up and having everything presented to them.
That said, if the group can manage to do it, player engagement should be higher, and the DM suffers less disappointment because they're only prepping a session of content based on the players' plans for that session, not a long storyline that requires more alignment and adherence.
Oh lordy, on the fly DMing is hard. Like a 4 hour session of improv with dice.
West Marches doesn't have to be totally on the fly for the DM. The players organize and define their agenda prior to the play session, so the DM should have a little time to prepare. The excursion is planned to visit a specific area of the map, so the DM only needs flesh out a bit of the world at a time.
D&D has too many rules. I invented a really light weight set of rules so that we can engage in more "role play" as opposed to RTS. It's more fun for the casual game and you don't waste so much time between turns.
Try anything that's described as "Powered by the Apocalypse". It's an excellent foundation for rules-light role-playing games.
Urban Shadows was my intro into this style of play. Monster of the Week is also very good. But there a huge number of great games out there that are not D&D (which is really a bit clunky and overly complex, IMO).
You just have to make up your own - unless you want to!
Tell us more about about your custom rule set?
Our D&D group meets once to twice a month and is about seven or eight people. That's large enough that at most two of us can not show up and we're still enough to play and enjoy ourselves. The DM writes session recaps and posts them the day before the next session. The overhead here is minimized by his taking notes during the session. This has kept our group going for something like three or four years now!
The one thing about D&D is that I know almost everyone there exclusively through the campaign, and 90% of my interactions with them have been in character, which means I actually know very little about their personal lives. We're getting better with this with non-D&D hangs though.
lol I also have had this experience. I played DnD to get to know people and after two years I realized I only knew their characters. Challenging.
Could you be more flexible about what game you are playing depending on how many show up?
This is the way. You have to have some amount of flexibility in your plans.
Yes, but it's frustrating that it's on the organizer to give everyone both something fun to do and the flexibility to flake. It feels like such thankless work to work so hard and get so little commitment back.
I have a fairly reliable friend group, but sometimes stuff just happens. One game we had someone get sick, and another person's car broke down. That's just life and it happens, but the game was very disrupted. Would be easier to pick activities that are more flexible to the number of people participating.
It is possible I would assume. I just don't have that many games or enough table space to be super flexible. I'm thinking board games work easiest when the people are already in the same space and need something to do, rather than trying to arrange them to come just for the game.
Space base works well for this for up to eight people with the expansion. I have a friend with a very tiny apartment we have done that in, and while others are buying cards you can enjoy conversation. I used to host a lot when I was able to keep a dedicated hosting area at the one house, but recently not as much unless it's outdoors mainly. If you have a grill you can let people know to bring what they want to grill, and popcorn and some seasoning makes an affordable snack, and if you project a movie somewhere people can disconnect if needed. But yes, I usually use my social energy with family in the area now.
Just in case you need some recommendations:
Party games: Scale well with more people, easy to explain
- Werewolf
- Werewords
- Codenames (favorite)
Beginner Games: Accept a decent amount, somewhat easy to explain
- Camel Up
- Flip 7
- Dungeon Fighter
- Ticket to Ride
Games that have nothing to do with your problem, but I just wanna mention:
- Everdell: Cute critters prepare for winter
- Root: Cute critters prepare for war
- Azul: Place fancy tiles that look and feel delicious
- Bohnanza: The best part of Catan without the bad parts
I'd like to add a very simple one: Uno.
With the rules variant that you can play out-of-order if you add an identical card to the one that's on top of the stack, it disrupts the otherwise pretty linear play, and easily scales up to 10ish persons and still be fun.
I host a lot of board game days and...yes.
One thing I do that helps is get people to RSVP with a specific arrival time, and do my best to have a game about to start around that time.
If you show up unexpectedly, then I'm not going to feel bad about you sitting out for an hour or more.
People unexpectedly bringing a partner/friend who is not really that into board games is the absolute worst thoguh.
> One thing I've observed is trying to arrange people to play board games is quite difficult because you can't predict how many people will show up. People get sick, misread the times, etc. And a lot of games are very sensitive to player count, so having 2 people too few or too many has the ability to make the game somewhat unplayable
You're trying to arrange the wrong type of event. A board game group plays a variable number of games simultaneously to accommodate the number of players each game can support. A board game group does not try to fit everyone into the same game as a matter of principle.
Probably. Problem is I only have so much space on my table.
I have a group of people who play boardgames in a turned based fashion over at boardgamearena. This solves the flakiness issue. The lack of direct social interaction is then made slightly better by having a chat channel where we chat about ongoing games.
We've been having ongoing games (around 2 going at every one time) since about a year now I think.
Still do in person games as well, but this at least keeps that group going through in-perwon drought periods.
As someone who has tried to host events for specific board games, I completely agree. Most games I play are best with 3 to 4, and I will flat out refuse to play them with more than 5.
Now, I host meetups which typically get 8-15 people and multiple games, so an unpredictable player count is not an issue.
I've had success with this! It required a little bit of an existing network. I always wanted to be in a band but never could, I was never invited. But I went to an open mic for a couple months, and just decided to .. start one. Invited people over to jam sometimes. Turned into a regular event, then turned into a band.
I've repeated this a couple times. Yeah, usually I have to do the bulk of the inviting and organizing. And yeah, it's uncomfortable being the "leader". But I know everyone enjoyed the time together. Those that didn't just never came and that's fine too.
You really can just do things!
You don't have to do it all yourself.
Join an organization. For example every city has Toastmasters, most have several. Easy to find, and it is an excellent place to meet people. And you'll learn how to convert social anxiety into social adrenaline.
Do you have a faith? Actually go to church instead of just believing. Are you non-religious? Several strands of Buddhism can be followed as philosophy and practice without adopting any mystical beliefs. Vipassanā (also called Insight) and Zen are a couple of examples.
And how do you turn random people that you met into life-long friends? You can reduce the time investment by a lot. If you call someone on a spaced repetition schedule, you can make them internalize that the door is always open. Without requiring a large commitment on either side. And a spaced repetition schedule is easy to achieve - just think Fibonacci. I'll call you back in 3 days. Then 5. Then 8 (round down to a week). And so on. It feels like a lot of calls at the start. But it slows down fast. Over a lifetime, it is only around 20 calls.
Play around with it. If it was someone you met and hung out with on a cruise, maybe start at a week for that first call. Either way, you're reinforcing the idea that we like to talk, and the door is always open.
You can use a similar idea to keep people who move on from your workplace in your life. People always mean to stay in contact. Then don't. But with structured reinforcement, you can actually make it work.
A spaced repetition schedule for speedrunning the friend-making process?
If it works, it works, I guess. And in a thread about loneliness, that’s all that matters. But it seems a bit calculated rather than organic, which is what we think of as the platonic ideal of friendmaking.
Think of it as an intentional way to turn a spark of connection into long-lasting coals. It can't work without that initial desire on both sides to make it work.
But if you really want calculated...try https://amorebeautifulquestion.com/36-questions/ on for size.
Wow. This is so true. My social life has improved hugely in the last couple of years and it's almost all because of this.
I host board game days.
I organise a pub trivia team.
I organise singalong nights.
I host occasional parties. Soup nights. Zucchini parties.
I set up a lot of group chats and keep them alive.
I organise to visit my family.
For a lot of events, I get a 5-10% attendance rate compared to the number of people I invite. People are busy. It just means I need to keep expanding the circles of people to invite. If people don't want to come it eventually becomes clear and I quietly remove them from the lists. But mostly I hear the opposite - they really want to keep being invited, even if they don't make it often.
What’s a zucchini party
It's when you accidentally grow giant zucchinis so you need help eating them.
So what you're saying is you basically have to give. This is what I find real life is like. Unless I'm giving something, like a ride to some interesting place, people are not interested in me at all. They just want to get something from me, that's it.
It helps to not look at this as zero sum.
A lot of people are more comfortable with a shared experience objective. This provides a means to do something and a reason behind meeting.
If you are always in the mindset that you are giving and everyone else is taking that can really impact how you perceive everyone. And 9/10 most people over estimate how much they give and under-estimate how much they take.
There is also something powerful with "I _get_ to take my new friend to a place I find cool" rather than "My new friend is using me to go to my cool place". Changing the way you internally frame things drastically helps.
I know it sounds absolutely stupid hogwash but it helps.
https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/gratitude-bed-every-morning...
I hope this helps!
It's not a "mindset" to notice that people only reach out to you when they want something. You notice that they reach out to others who aren't you and don't include you, They reserve you for favors only. If you find out about something and ask to be included they'll say "sure," but it doesn't feel great to feel like you have to beg.
That's not a "mindset," dude.
It's really hard to try to make that relationship more reciprocal and it really sours you on trying to create other relationships. You wonder if there's something inherently wrong with you. If your lot in life is always to be an outsider.
There's also the second type of person one can get caught up with, the narcissist. They think that the world owes them everything and they will take, take, take and never give anything. This one is a typically bit easier to deal with and do a little less damage to your mental health. Though they can sometimes be charismatic, so difficult to spot early if you aren't used to dealing with that type of person. The charismatic ones don't demand anything, especially not right off the bad. They make you feel like it's your choice to do them favors.
It's easier to notice if you have exceptionally "wanty" people in your life. But can happen regardless.
Some relationships are dysfunctional. Some people are toxic. That's not a "mindset" problem. It's clear you're not familiar with dysfunctional relationships, which is great, so don't accuse others of having the wrong "mindset" when you don't know.
I've felt this way for a while, that the give/take in my relationships is imbalanced, and that I'm not receiving what I need.
But then I tried to imagine receiving what I thought I wanted, and whether it would truly make me happy. The answer is almost always no.
The few times the answer was yes, I traced down why within myself, and found that, honestly, I just wanted people to care about me.
Then I realized that they have already shown ways that they care about me, just not the ways I was wanting or expecting, or found as meaningful.
Or I realized that I was not believing that they cared about me, and that it was merely a performance, but that I had no good reason for doubting it, and was just being overly demanding of a sign. (Not always, though. With some people, there were clear signs they were faking it.)
Or I realized that there was no context in which those things could come up, so the genuine love from the other person might actually be present, it's just that there's no opportunity for them to express it, until a scenario is created where it makes sense for them to do so in some way.
And other similar thought experiments within myself. This has led to me (a) realizing that a good number of people do actually care about me to a significant and meaningful degree, and (b) I need to take the initiative more often to create situations where they can express it, even if it's something as simple as asking them to have coffee with me.
I think of this all the time. What is the relationship between value and relationships? And what is the value of such a relationship?
It seems to me that every relationship is value oriented, even ones we consider absolutely perfect and pure.
Take for instance a mother's undying love for her newborn. She values that newborn for a few reasons. She sees herself in it. She sees pure innocence in it that needs to be protected and nourished. She sees all the potential good (i.e. value) this little child may one day bring to society. She sees her own personal fulfillment in the act of bringing this to fruition, which brings her joy, even amidst all the sacrifices she may have to make for it.
Is any of this selfish or bad? Does it in any way devalue her relationship to the child?
Extrapolate this to other relationships. A perfect friendship, where two people meet together regularly to find out about each other's recent activities, and encourage each other in life's difficulties, and foster one another's growth and good. They each care about the other, ask how the other is doing and what they're thinking and feeling, offer each other consolation, comfort, and help in times of distress or difficulty. Each gets this from the other, mutually beneficial. One may offer it exclusively at one time, the other reciprocates later, not out of obligation, but gratitude and personal desire.
Is this wrong? Is this selfish? Is this bad?
Many years ago I read the classic 'How to win friends and influence people' and I was just hit with, according to that book, how little people actually care about other people and how fundamentally lonely our existence is.
I don't think that was the message the book was trying to give, but that's what I got out of it.
So yes, people will wonder, subconsciously or not, what's in it for them. If you can give status or if you are naturally entertaining, this might all seem a little less obvious.
You have to provide value.
Unless you are pretty and young, nobody will automatically want to be around you unless you’re providing value.
> You have to be the one who reaches out.
But that's the whole issue. Who am I supposed to reach out to? The 2 people at work I occasionally talk to because they happen to sit in the same office as me?
I'm late for this comment, but finding a recreational team sport club in your area is what I could recommend. You have immediately something in common with everyone and it's a healthy exercise.
Those two people might be a start, and it's a low barrier to their participation to say you want to try a nearby cafe for lunch tomorrow if they're interested.
Longer term: make opportunities to occasionally talk to other people. Join a club, join a fitness group of some kind, take a class at your local library. It's got be something in person with enough repetition with the same people that everyone involved can overcome inertia enough to talk.
Try to say 'yes' should an occasional contact invite you to something, because it's pretty common that you won't get asked a second time if you pass on the first - I assume that's because we're all scared stiff that no-one likes us.
I need to take a heaping spoonful of my own advice here, but: yeah, kind of yes. You don't have to think of them as the people you've been searching all your life for, but to meet people, you need a source of people to draw from. Those two people you talk to on a semi-regular basis are entry nodes into the social network.
I've seen people organize for boardgames on facebook neighbourhood groups.
>Accept that most people flake
This is a thing that's always surprised me when I've been in the US. How common it is to enthusiastically arrange to do some activity together, get a meal, play a game, have a drink, whatever, and then for people to just call it off at the last minute. It seems much more socially acceptable to do so than either the UK (where I live) or France (where I have lived and still visit regularly).
The loneliness thing seems common across Europe too though so I'm not suggesting this is the root of the problem. But I do think that whilst this is a global problem the solutions are likely to be local, working with and leveraging different cultural norms.
I think that most of us Europeans think the Americans are over enthusiastic, which can give us the impression that they want to do something more than they actually do.
I think your comment about social acceptance in the UK is slightly off. It's person dependent. I would say my experience aligns closer with the 50% mark. It's a massive variant from person to person. I have friends that will turn up to anything, rain or shine, sickness or in health. Equally, I know people that would flake on a wedding because they stubbed their toe or the latest season of [insert meaningless reality show] came out.
> enthusiastically arrange
Anything but a purely positive or enthusiastic response is not allowed in US culture.
On the other hand, you also can't have an attachment to what you want the outcomes to be. You can't expect the same in return from everyone else. Until you let go of this transactional mindset, you will grow resentful when a lot of them start canceling on you, and believe me, at your 30s and above, with all these things that compete for our time, they will.
> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
Most importantly, you have to hear “I can’t” and be really cool about it or folks will half commit out of guilt and bail. They probably have a good reason, especially if they have kids. Or maybe they’re just exhausted! That is valid - you will sometimes feel that way too, and you should clearly (but politely) communicate it when you need.
If you consistently say yes/no and adhere to it, people will return the favor and you’ll all be better for it. My social life vastly improved post COVID when I adhered to that. My friends and I are incredibly honest so now folks rarely bail (always for good reason) and we all can reliably plan to hang out without guessing if someone actually means “no” when they say maybe and all that nonsense.
I think I saw this quote somewhere else on HN about a post lamenting how difficult it can be to make new friends after age 30 or so:
Finding new friends as an adult can be exceedingly difficult, but becoming a friend to someone is surprisingly easy.
Lots of people (and if I'm being honest I'm one of them, so no judgement) just sort of expect friendships to come to them. But if you actually do the hard (and somewhat socially risky) work of inviting people to do things, offering to help unsolicited, organizing gatherings, etc. new friendships are much easier to come by.
I was writing a reply, but then saw your comment. It's basically what I was going to say as well.
I moved to a new area. Searched for chess clubs. Couldn't find one.
So I created one. We now have ~10 people showing up to each meeting. From young kids, to older retired people. Facebook is a blessing for finding groups of people who are looking for things to do. It's really that simple. Just do things.
Would say that changing mind i.e. cancelling is probably also parts of our nerds traits, I feel that the closer to the time I starts getting cold feet for no reason. The irony is that probably that the most time-consuming part is probably scrolling social media.
I've been working on a solution that makes it easier to meet people. When you're out for coffee or something and feeling social, you can signal you're available. Since you and your potential friend already nearby, it should reduce cancellations. I built an app for this, check it out if you have time: https://tatapp.astekita.com/
That is excellent advice. How do we amplify this advice to more areas? I practice that by being intentional about my work: I think about all the opportunities I have to meet people and how I can give back to them. I call that slow multicast. I have a startup in my incubator that I call .find . I am a looking for a founder. I love how you explained it simply, clearly. I would love to have you in my "combat loneliness" team My ingredients: - walk the walk - Multicast - Seed - Tie to your bucket lists as growth engine (virtuous cycle)
I would love to further the combat, please reach out to me Joseph de Castelnau on IG and X.
I agree with this so much! I've found that going to people and initiating is the only thing you can do. How people respond varies a lot and you have to be resilient to rejection.
There was a post[1] sometime back about just having coffee in the afternoon outisdes and how that brought in more people.
I also write about it here [2].
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43473618
[2]: https://blog.papermatch.me/html/Wheres_the_human_touch
> Note: you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake. It may always feel painful (and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive). You have to feel your feelings, accept it, and move on.
This is an incredibly good point. Like all things of this nature, I liken the process to panning for gold. In truth, you may not want to invest in people that aren't all that invested in you or the activity at hand. It stinks that the success rate is lower than chance, but it's probably better this way.
Yeah, I realized recently you have to be more intentional for things you want. You don’t necessarily have to host it but you need to reach out and find things going on where there are people.
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
Problem is it gets fucking exhausting to organize and reach out after a while. Especially with DnD.
You can minimize that though - just give the event a regular schedule or have some way to easily inform all participants of the next date. If people stop showing up without individual nagging then maybe they weren't all that interested in that activity and that's OK too.
Great point and many of the responses are very interesting too.
I wonder whether part of this is a habitualization of intolerance for just being with oneself - to be ok with feeling bored, for instance. Most suggestions are about "doing". Just being with oneself without a doing is painful for many from what I've seen.
I think it's what that intolerance leads to which is a big part of the problem. It's natural that we don't like being bored, but these days we have infinite means to keep boredom away that don't involve connecting with others. Why go through the risks and awkwardness of opening yourself up to others when you have a device of infinite rabbit holes and time sinks in your pocket at all times? 40 years ago it was very possible to run out of entertainment, which is quite different today.
This! I agree 100%. How do you deal with the feeling of tiredness that comes after doing this for a while? You know, when you reach a ratio of 20:1 invitations sent versus received? When you inevitably start wanting reciprocity, or for someone else to take the initiative for a change?
If it's truly down to 20:1 I think you need to start looking at what other variables in your life are keeping that number down and maybe have a conversation about it. Poor circle of friends match, poor scheduling, some personality flaw that you can work on etc.
people are so fucked up by consumerism that they expect to be just consumers also in their sociality... like they expect that social relations to be like commodities.
in consumer societies people flee real freedom's anxiety by conforming to market ways, treating connections as consumption not production. lasting bonds need effort patience vulnerability, all anti-consumer virtues.
Fromm said that in market societies love and relations follow the commodity and labor market exchange pattern. they want low-effort replaceable humans. So they became low-effort replaceable humans.
I'm just going to be a "me too" but I think you nailed it. It's just hard for some people to do. It's sort of like losing weight: the formula is easy, but the doing is hard.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46453114
I would like to mention this link from HN
While you are not wrong, I think in many cases this advice is as effective as telling someone to "just stop being depressed".
I think this advice works in practice, but it misidentifies the problem. It treats friendship as something that has always required deliberate effort and personal initiative, when historically the opposite was true. For most of human history, social bonds were not maintained through planning or follow-ups. They emerged automatically from structure. Humans evolved in small, stable groups with repeated contact, shared labor, shared risk, and strong norms against withdrawal. You did not “reach out” to maintain relationships; you saw the same people every day because survival required it. Social connection was not a lifestyle choice but an unavoidable condition of being alive.
Anthropologically, this matters because our social brains are tuned for inevitability, not optionality. We are adapted to environments where interaction is frequent, predictable, and constrained. Dunbar-scale groups, reciprocal dependence, and ritualized coordination did the work that calendars and reminders now attempt to approximate. When those constraints exist, friendship is an emergent property. When they are removed, it becomes a management problem.
Modern life systematically dismantled those constraints. Mobility replaced permanence, private space replaced shared space, and passive entertainment replaced collective activity. Flaking became costless. Absence became invisible. Optionality exploded. None of this happened accidentally; it was a deliberate trade in exchange for autonomy, flexibility, and economic efficiency. But the biological machinery did not change with the environment. We are still running hunter-gatherer social hardware in a world optimized for individual choice.
Seen through that lens, the advice to host, schedule, follow up, and accept rejection is not wrong, but it is compensatory. It asks individuals to manually recreate what used to be automatic. One person becomes the forcing function that the environment no longer provides. That can work, but it is fragile, asymmetric, and emotionally expensive, especially for people who are sensitive to imbalance or rejection. Framing this as “how friendship works” subtly turns a systems failure into a personal obligation.
If the goal is to reduce effort rather than heroically absorb it, the real lever is not better social skills or more persistence but reintroducing constraint. Social bonds form most reliably where interaction is inevitable rather than intentional: fixed schedules, shared physical spaces, repeated exposure to the same people, and light obligations that make absence noticeable. This is why gyms, religious communities, teams, classes, and other ritualized environments still produce friendships with relatively little effort. They partially restore the conditions under which our social instincts evolved.
There is no free lunch here. Effortless social life was never free; it was paid for with reduced choice, reduced mobility, and reduced privacy. You cannot fully recover that world without giving something up. But you can recover much of its function by selectively sacrificing optionality in exchange for repetition and proximity. The modern workaround of turning individuals into social project managers is effective but unnatural. Rebuilding environments that do the work for us is closer to our biology, closer to our history, and probably the only scalable way to make social connection feel less like a second job again.
> you are going to get well under a 50% success rate here. Accept that most people flake
This is true, but as long as the success rate is >= 1 other person, it's okay.
I started a running club for my apartment block (about 200 flats with maybe 300 residents). I posted flyers out once advertising it as a friendly social running club. Of the 300, the group has about 15 people, of which 5 are regulars (every other week at least), and just 2 of us are super regulars (multiple times per week). It's a terrible success rate, but those are 4/5 good friends.
At first it bothered me how flaky people were. Some people joined the group but have yet to show up in person. And some joined the group and are yet to even converse in the group chat, but hey, they'll come along when they're ready.
Not only do you need to create the things to do, but you need to pick up the phone and CALL them (on the telephone! not voicemail, not whatsapp/facetime) and have a conversation with them. Sometime in 2006-2008 we started sending people online invites to parties and the habit of calling people died out.
If you call 12 people, on the telephone, and invite them for a dinner party next weekend, and 12 people say yes, I give 90% odds that 12 people show up to your party
I see young people facetiming each other all the time, maybe a little too much. It definitely fills the same role as audio calls used to. But I just text. I remember when texting started to become a thing, and I was very much looking forward to the absolute convenience of being able to read and respond whatever I had time, and not have to deal with a phone call. I wonder if that was common in my generation (millenials), and I wonder if we call/facetime significantly less and text more than other generations.
Texting is for sure more convenient but you lose the "watercooler" effect, you're not going to text them "how's your mom doing?" when inviting them over for D&D via text
Saying yes to a text invite seems less of a commitment to me. Maybe that's generational.
huh, as a 50something saying yes to a text message is absolutely a firm commitment. if anything, is firmer than doing it over voice, because now you have both put something in writing.
IDK. Low effort invite to me implies less commitment in the reply.
It's weird that no one else plans things?
I always feel like I organize things to much. It's one sided
> and nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive As opposed to non-nerds of course, who are famously fine with rejection.
In all seriousness, there is no evidence to suggest that being a nerd (read: having nerdy interests) is related to being more emotionally stunted than the average person. You're just perpetuating a bad stereotype.
You might be working with a different definition of "nerd" compared to OP. From wikipedia:
> A nerd is a person seen as over-intellectual, obsessive, introverted, or lacking social skills.
It's not a stereotype that nerds are socially awkward but rather "nerd" is the name for the stereotype.
I was not aware of this definition, thank you.
Finland happiness study revealed the concept of "go first".
Peer to peer networks' rules apply to real life - give more than take and be happy.
D&D is extraordinarily difficult to bootstrap. You ened 4-8 people to commit to being at a certain place at a certain time. If you play online instead, just the coordinated time alone is a monumental effort.
There are a ton of reasons for this. Work, school, coordinating plans with their partner, other commitments , other friends and family and honestly people just being flaky. For D&D this can be particularly bad if you're missing a couple of people who just flaked. Other activities don't have that problem and it can still be an issue.
There was a time when going out and doing things was necessary for social interaction. That's not true anymore. Online is sorta social. It's kinda close enough to scratch that itch for many, particularly because it has none of the coordination and/or travel issues.
But also people just have less free time. Because we have to work so much.
Hobbies in general have becom ea luxury. By that I mean you're spending your time doing something that doesn't earn an income. That's good but an increasingly large number of people don't have that as an option, hence "luxury".
Put another way, the ultimate goal of capitalism is to have all the worker bees constantly creating wealth so Bezos can have $210 billion instead of $215 billion.
The advice “create things to do” is a huge leap for someone with atrophied social skills. Even just attending an event is a terrifying prospect to someone with debilitating social anxiety or low self-esteem.
Instead, a better goal is to become comfortable talking to strangers. If you could do that confidently, anything is possible socially.
Here’s a framework to do that:
1. Adopt a useful attitude.
Before any social situation, consciously choose an attitude that serves you socially: calm, relaxed, enthusiastic, curious, friendly, or simply open. This replaces the useless defaults that keep you stuck: reticent, scared, angry, confused.
Assume people will like you.
2. Set an intention for the interaction.
Decide on one small goal for the interaction. Not “be charming” or “make friends,” rather something achievable.
Example intentions, ranked from easier to more difficult: - To appear friendly (smile, make eye contact) - To greet people - To find out what’s going on around town - To enjoy talking with people - To meet people - To make someone smile - To enjoy getting to know someone - To make someone laugh - To get someone’s contact info - To flirt - To talk to the most attractive person in the room
3. Find comfort in your body.
When you arrive at a social space, take a deep breath. Know that you’re safe inhabiting your body, no matter what anyone thinks of you or says.
4. Set your expectations.
Paralyzed about what to say? Set the bar low. Say your words and expect nothing in return. Confidence in delivering your words will grow. Confidence in social acceptance will follow as you see people respond neutrally and positively.
You might be talking to a grumpy person. It’s okay if you don’t get the response you’d hoped for.
5. Start impossibly small.
If you’re severely out of practice (nervous, anxious, uncertain), set out to initiate an interaction with someone where you accomplish just one objective. Then stop and celebrate that win. Don’t try to combine all of these into one interaction—you will get overwhelmed. Then initiate another interaction on another day and accomplish another objective.
Objective: Say “hello.” If you tend to be quiet, focus on being heard. Find confidence in your voice.
Objective: Say the first thing that comes to mind and see what happens.
Objective: Notice something about a person and comment on it. “Nice shoes!”
Objective: Notice something about the environment and comment on it to someone nearby.
Objective: Ask someone a question for information.
Objective: Ask someone their opinion.
Objective: Ask a question that invites an emotional response rather than a factual one. “What do you love about living here?”
Objective: Join a circle of people in conversation.
6. Make it a habit.
Start today: say one thing to one person. Repeat tomorrow. Then the next day. Within about a week, it becomes second nature. The scariness diminishes. Soon, you’ll actually want to talk to people.
When you learn to talk to strangers, you’re more than halfway to making a friend. Friends will help keep you out of loneliness.
I'm terrible at this because I just can't handle extended lulls in conversations with anyone who isn't a close friend. As a result, I talk too much and that's the end of building a friendship. Sigh...
Hey, but you are aware of it. It's a matter of working on it.
this!
when i am in this mood my mantra becomes, "be an instigator".
> nerds like us often are rejection-sensitive
This "hypersensitivity" and even paralytic fear must be understood as a narcissistic trait (people fail to recognize this, in part, because they have a limited view of what is narcissistic, as something necessarily bombastic, and of course, narcissism tends toward a blindness of one's own narcissism). By recognizing this to be the case, the subtle temptation toward self-pity, or normalization or even valorization of such qualities, can be prevented. Narcissistic traits are antisocial, and so it stands to reason that narcissistic traits impede one's ability to form healthy relationships.
> You are struggling against many aspects of the way we in the developed world/nerd world live.
The liberal consumerist hyperindividualism of our age is an anthropological position that conceives of human beings as atomized units that merely enter into transactional relations with other human beings. "Society" is merely something contractual and utilitarian, and in practice has the flavor of mutual exploitation. In effect, society is reduced to something like a marketplace. This is, of course, totally bogus and destructive. We are intrinsically social animals. Society is a common good, a superordinate good, toward which we have certain general, non-consensual moral obligations and something we need to flourish as human beings.
Because of the bad anthropology the contemporary world is rooted in, we often feel its practices and aims to be meaningless and hollow. We also find ourselves oscillating between the twin errors of collectivism and hyperindividualism. These two extremes are forced onto us by the paradigm of this false anthropology. One looming danger today is that, as the liberal order collapses, we do not know what will replace it. The loudest contenders are undesirable.
> more time-consuming relationship with our families than our parents ever did
That depends. On the one hand, family life was much more robust and lively in many ways than it is today. Parents weren't as careerist then in general. Families were larger, so the abundance of siblings meant you didn't have a lonely childhood at home, and a large pool of potential friends outside of it. Older siblings would assist with younger siblings, and children would participate in domestic duties, so in that sense, parents would not need to be as involved in all aspects of the daily life of the children and the functioning of the household. And in the past, families tended to concentrate more in the local area, so grandparents were typically near children and grandchildren and so on. In other words, a robust family life enables a robust society in general. Social life becomes "thicker" and mutually reinforcing.
The time-consuming element you have in mind is therefore related. All of the responsibility for taking care of aging parents falls on the few children they have or who live nearby. Without siblings or friends, parents step in socially more than they would with their children (or else consign them to the cesspool of social media and internet garbage). There are also cultural factors: parents can become overinvolved or inappropriately involved in some respects, like the proverbial helicopter parent, which itself can be spurred by the collapse of society around them, if not careerist ambitions for one's children.
Which brings us to your main point...
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
Today, communities often need to be more intentional. If there isn't a community around you'd like to join, you have to be the one who initiates it. It's not guaranteed to function or last, but what's the alternative?
This doesn't "solve" the so-called loneliness epidemic, of course. The proposal here is more modest, namely, if you want people in your life, you have to look for them. Every community or social group needs a reason for its existence. The weakest form is rooted in utility, the second weakest in fun and pleasure. They are transient. The best and more robust kind are to be found in the common pursuit of virtue. In these and through these, we could begin to witness the birth of a healthy society.
> So they sit on social media all day when they're not at work or school. How can we solve this?
The naive solution is to place blame on the people who are influenced by the most advanced behavior modification schemes ever devised by humans. Kinda like how the plastic producers will push recycling, knowing they can shift blame for the pollution away from their production of the pollution, because people love blaming. You'll see commenters here telling us that the answer is for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get out, get involved in their communities under their own willpower. These ideas are doomed from the outset.
The real solution is already being enacted in a number of US states and countries[1]: legally restricting access to the poison, rather than blaming the people who are at the mercy of finely honed instruments of behavior modification when they're unable to stop drinking it under their own willpower.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_age_verification_...
I don't see how the control and enforcement of "social media age verification" solves for the "people who are unable to stop... under their own willpower." My grandparents are more addicted to the phone than I am. Taking the superlative stance of social media being the "most advanced behavior modification schemes ever devised by humans" wouldn't the correct regulation be some sort of threshold of consumption (screen time limits per application), or rehabilitation for those that have crossed a line into psychological addiction? I imagine the easiest, assuming you see "the algorithm" as the problem, would be to ban selective algorithms and force timeline-based feeds or the like.
Laws and regulations are also ”advanced behaviour modification”. That is how they work. Tobacco is clear example of this, almost everybody used to smoke back in the 90’s and 00’s (including me) whereas after years of laws regulatios, taxation, public education, and providing healthcare for addiction, we are at the point where smokin makes you a loser rather than some cool Marlboro dude/dudette. There is very little society can do for grandparents addicted to fb, but we can prevent the same happening to the future elderly.
Limiting at which age you can use the product is just one part of the puzzle. You could also hit a big tax on ad revenue gained via social media to veer people off from ruining their brains. There is a host of others tools as well and I think we will see them implemented more and more. The tech billionaires fight back and rather fund a fascist dictator to power than lose a single cent, but there you go. But I think the Musk’s and the like have constantly stepped over boundaries to the extent that the tide has changed.
The problems occurred when online interaction got mediated by corporations with profit motives that use dark patterns, automated systems and algorithms to extract more revenue from its users.
Most of my real-life friends are people I've first met online, or as a consequence of having met someone online. Those online sites have mostly been run by enthusiasts, driven by some hobby, fandom or other interest. A couple of them have risen highly in popularity and attracted many thousands of users, and also served news and allowed vendors to use their site for interactions with customers.
Those communities that have thrived have made sure that discourse does not get poisoned. They have had active, strong but fair moderators. Many have strict rules against discussing politics or religion, but people have a need to discuss that too sometimes — and being identifiable e.g. between subreddits could put people off from doing that.
Also, where do you draw the line to what is an online community and what is "social media"? I've avoided Facebook and X-twitter, but I know genuine communities exist there too.
This rings untrue. Hacker News is about the most "social media" type of site I use, and I still feel the shift towards isolation others described.
Also, the naive view is to place all the blame for a broad cultural shift on Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/TikTok and pretend people can't choose to limit their use. Someone pretending there can only be a single factor to blame for a problem is usually a biased person with a bone to pick. The rhetoric supports your cause, but the US is not going to ban social media for adults any time soon and telling people they're helpless until the government bans social media is unhelpful at best.
Shouldn't we rather just regulate social media instead of forcefully de-anonymizing online communication and restricting access to online community?
I agree this is a collective action problem.
But making children (and adults, because how else can you tell without checking) give their biometrics to companies (and by extension the highest bidder (palantir, paramilitaries, and police)) that helped create and then exacerbated this crisis is like asking the drug dealer association to help folks quit by giving them new exotic chemicals heretofore undiscovered.
You 'win' the war on pollution by making companies actually pay for their externalities, repeat offenders cease to exist, their assets seized, and their executives are jailed, rather than just 'paying fines' for the thousand of corpses they leave in their wake.
Likewise, if social media companies produce informational or social 'pollution' so defined, we can do likewise and insist they defray the cost of the damage. If they are no longer profitable when the cost is not paid by society, then they'll have to learn to innovate again.
the “real solution” wouldn’t involve isolating children in already marginalised minorities, making them lose one of the only sources of community they feel safe in.
But that's the problem: they're NOT safe in those communities.
We've created these unhealthy gardens where young people feel safe, removing any reason for them to engage in the real world. They don't thrive in these places, they slowly withdraw.
If you parents are your abusers, then their 'real world' will be unyieldingly bad no matter what social controls the internet employs.
You have said that 'feeling safe' is 'unhealthy' because it's not 'real'. But constantly feeling and being unsafe, even if it is warranted by circumstance, is worse in every way.
We, as a society, do not support the agency to children to escape horrific circumstances. These online communities are a stop-gap against this active failure.
Ideally, they wouldn't need to escape at all, but that's not the conversation we're having.
No, I have the feeling that “feeling safe” is “unhealthy” because these online communities children get access to are full of predators who wish them harm.
The online communities in question do more damage than good. They encourage isolation and spread social contagion.
We should do more as a society, absolutely! But these places are not “stop gaps” because they’re NOT helping.
Giving over the agency to corporations is no beneficial over all.
Taking something away by force is not the way to encourage someone to do something else. This is carrot or stick mentality. The city added benches and chairs in all the parks to improve the quality of our third spaces, as an example of social infrastructure.
Social infrastructure is great! However, if you have a crack epidemic adding some benches isn't going to change anything.
Are you talking about homeless people or that TikTok is crack?
I've been a remote engineer for about 10 years now, just over 50, enjoy programming but most of my friends have dropped off or gone crazy (trumpers) in recent years, and I never got married.
I recently took a local wheel throwing (pottery class), which was daunting at first, among a class of almost all females, younger, etc, but im 6 months in and literally just interacting with humans is one of the best parts of my week. Hobby is pretty cool too, so completely different than banging code all day.
Sometimes I don't feel like going after days of being alone and literally talking to no one, it puts you in a "zone" for sure, but then I go to the class, and you realize, at least imho, humans are social creatures. It's like food, we need that interaction or we whither and die.
The inability of your friends to have non-political conversations can be a big part of isolation. I follow the “no politics, no religion” rule when I go out and it’s served me well.
You can have political/religious conversations with people who disagree but often it feels like walking in a mine field.
On one hand, I always want to keep an open mind about religion and politics, and I'm always interested in hearing what others are passionate about, even if it's in those topics. That's how I've learned so much of what I have.
If everyone followed the rule of avoiding these topics, I wonder how many people would never hear an opposing opinion, maybe even a more beneficial one, to the one they've grown up with. I think these topics should be encouraged.
That said, the moment you disagree with someone on one of these topics, some people will definitely fly into a small rage, or instantly cut off contact with you, or even slander you to others, or some mix of these.
Ultimately, I think that's fine. For one thing, you have just learned that this is someone you probably don't want in your life anyway, because they can't handle disagreement in a civil way.
And you learned it fairly quickly and at a small cost. Even if they slander you, people whose opinions you'd actually care about will generously take their word with a large dose of salt, especially based on their character, since such a character usually has other tells too.
So my current stance is to just be open to these topics.
Just yesterday, while I was sitting here at the library, someone approached me and asked me to watch his phone while he used the restroom, in case ICE came in and took it. He was joking, but we went into a slight conversation about politics in general, in which we found out that we disagree on certain topics, and he almost took offense at me disagreeing. I was friendly and open to him the whole time, and he was friendly when he left to use the restroom. But when he came back and sat back down, and later left the whole library, he left without even so much as a goodbye or wave. It seems like he just didn't like me anymore because of my disagreement. And that's fine with me. Both would have been fine.
> That said, the moment you disagree with someone on one of these topics, some people will definitely fly into a small rage, or instantly cut off contact with you, or even slander you to others, or some mix of these.
I think this is what changed. I remember being a kid in the 80s, and when my parents had friends over, someone would inevitably bring up Reagan or something, but the discussion would always be polite and graceful, and then people would move on to something else. So many people seem to be incapable of this today. Politics comes up and suddenly the friend group is cut in half and daughters don't talk to fathers anymore. It's wild.
Huh, that's neat. I've suspected that our political fervor is one of those things that we take to be uniquely NOW, of the present moment, but has actually been a staple. (Like how every generation believes its successors to be dumber, less respectful, ...) But, maybe that's not so!
Don’t you care that you made them mad?
Not at all.
First, I didn't express an evil or hateful opinion, or any which could reasonably incite indignation or justified anger.
Second, I was willing to dive into a discussion, he wasn't. He seemed more closed minded, which to me seems to be a sign of emotional immaturity.
Third, we did (implicitly) agree to disagree, which I think is the right, peaceful, mature, and civil course of action when at an impasse.
Fourth, we weren't even at a genuine impasse, but an artificial one he created by simply ending the conversation after finding out that I didn't agree with him. Maybe if he heard my reasons, he might find something he agrees with, or something that tempers his emotinonal reaction?
Why would he ever hear out your reasons? He just wanted to go to the bathroom and you tried to start a debate.
I must have explained it wrong. He was the one who brought up politics, and also asked for my opinion about it during that interaction. He was clearly not in a rush, having come over to my table to ask the favor, and lingered here while mainly sustaining the conversation by himself, while I merely gave short answers to everything he said, partly to let him exit at any time to use the restroom, and partly because I neither expected or particularly desired a conversation, though I was okay with it as long as he wanted to have it.
> follow the “no politics, no religion” rule
These two are a strict no go for me too.
Another thing that worked well for me is to keep discussions very low and quick on topics like personal relationships, work, career and hot button topics like AI, weather, traffic, climate change, house prices, etc. Basically avoid anything that a newspaper would think is worthwhile for frontpage or editorial column.
I go heavy on food, travel, culture, rumors, art, movies, music, design, festivals, holidays, games. You could talk hours on stuff here, just pick an artsy cultural magazine or subreddit and keep up.
Side note, inviting views from both sexes makes for some very interesting short conversations. Both have very very different takes on the same things and therefore won't talk too long. Both being interested in very different things (think dress belts, hair supplements, birth control vs fishing, bourbon and soccer) brings some newness into the conversation.
Seems like everything is a hot button topic these days. Even things like movies get connected to a hot button in one way or another.
> mine field
This is an element of cancel culture, or a culture which indoctrinates to tattle/report one another.
Cutting people off because you disagree politically is new. I remember having friends in different political parties when I was younger. (20 years ago)
The red scare famously effected social groups from the very wealthy to the poorest immigrant. Civil rights before it. Social-political exclusion is not new in the U.S, but how big the “I ignore politics and politics ignores me” group is, is highly variable. In good times, when people are generally happy, political representatives have a fewer differences and the “happily apolitical” group is very large. This aligns with the Clinton-Bush JR era.
The problem is, those eras are uncommon even in the U.S in the broader view of history, and depend entirely on being the right demographic. Such as being a Muslim American in the decade following 9/11. I can assure you, they did not experience the “friends of a different political party” effect at that time.
I had the same experience, but the difference these days seems to be that so many people can't NOT talk about politics. There are certain folk who just find a way to shoehorn it into any conversation. It is really draining.
This is anecdotal, of course.
Yea, it's possible to be very politically enthusiastic and active, but also NOT bring up your favorite (or hated) politician in every damn discussion. We all have that uncle that can't let everyone else enjoy Thanksgiving dinner anymore because he has to make it about Trump or something.
I agree. It got really intense roughly 10 years ago.
This feels like a uniquely American advice. I have had pretty heated, but not damaging, discussions with people on the completely different side of the political spectrum here in Norway. I can't remember a single time I have cut someone out for having a different political opinion.
Maybe the loneliness problem is partly connected to the American political system at this point in time?
Half this country voted for and supports a vile lunatic president hell bent on destroying the U.S. to enrich his personal wealth and power. It's not surprising that over here we Democrats view Republicans as a cancer we want nothing to do with.
It wasn't always this way. In the past Republicans actually had some decency. That went out the window after they elected Trump twice.
I'm the same age as you and most of my friends are remote, on the other side of the country or in different countries, etc, and I maintain contact all the time, for decades. I still have friends from elementary school, middle school, high school, university, and from most of my jobs going back 30 years. I can pick up my phone and call some of my coworkers from 25 years ago without hesitation and we will go for lunch at the next opportune time.
> most of my friends have dropped off or gone crazy
If you find yourself to be the one who is isolated, then I think you need to look inward. My best friends and I share completely polar opposite politics. We have known each other for almost 50 years now. We have had yelling matches over politics, especially during the Pandemic. We have now stopped talking... about politics. We still chat every single day throughout the day. I laugh heartily at least once a day over some extremely offensive joke that one of us sends, usually at each other's expense. But we never, ever talk about politics anymore and we are happier for it.
Maybe you need to rekindle those friendships and see if you can avoid politics. If you can't then I think it's more on you than them and you should reflect on that.
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I‘m a cofounder of a German loneliness startup. My core insight is that loneliness often stems from a badly adjusted internal social threat function ( f(social event)=perceived threat ).
This function runs subconsciously all day long. From talking to strangers to reaching out to a friend, the lonely mind is much more aware of negative outcomes, so your mind protects you by telling you things like „I don’t talk to strangers because I would annoy them“ or „I don’t reach out to that friend because he’s probably busy“. And that makes it much much harder for lonely people to maintain a healthy social life.
As for the fix, you can try to set the social event up in a way that has less room for perceived threat. Think of third places, regularly scheduled meetings, etc. Or you can work on the function itself (=your thinking patterns). If you look at research on loneliness interventions, working on this function is the most effective way to help individuals overcome persistent loneliness.
Now the sad thing is that people don’t like to hear that the most effective way to combat loneliness is to work on their own perceptions, which makes the sales pitch rather challenging.
You're probably far ahead of me on this topic, but as an immigrant to Germany for some years now, living with a German partner, I'm convinced that Germany (at least, Bavaria) has its own specific cultural norms that makes socialising far more challenging than is my experience in other countries. I can't explain why, but I observe a more insular (i.e. family- and existing-close-circle-focused) attitude, and also a significant level of difficulty/inflexibility regarding scheduling social events.
For example, I often find it quicker and easier to agree the timing and details of weekend trips to meet up with friends in other countries, involving one or both sides traveling significantly to meet, than arranging a single evening to meet for dinner with a single existing German colleague or friend living nearby. Of course these people have lives and arrangements I must fit in with, but I'm convinced that the examples I'm thinking of do not have such overwhelmingly busy schedules as to explain the observation.
This might sound like a trivial observation, but I suspect that the overall effect, if you scale even a small fraction of this behaviour across a whole country, could be huge.
As a German, I very much share those observations, and it seems to be underdiscussed and not that apparent to most people here.
The German social scheduling culture can definitely be a viscous circle, where everyone having to plan their calendar in advance forces everyone else to plan even further in advance if they want to have a chance to meet up.
I do think it's probably felt the strongest for adults between ~18-35, where your circle of friends spreads out across the country/surrounding cities/world, and any get together necessitates travel. After that, when people settle down (potentially have children) they usually form new circles of friends that are more local again with more opportunities for spontaneous meetings.
So far, the only solution I know is to set a date and stick with it. Trying to find a solution that meets everybody's calendar is rarely worth the effort. First, nobody has time; later, they have other appointments, so in the end it seems to be a matter of priority.
Set your date and stick to it. If people deem your topic relevant, they will arrange to participate.
I'm extremely skeptical of financial solutions to this problem.
One of the most fundamental reasons for my own personal loneliness is that, in many of the connections I've made, they simply do not feel sincere, genuine, authentic, and simply because the other person clearly has a different motivation for "caring" about me than actually caring about me.
For example, the churchgoers I've met have always felt like they were only spending time with me to get me to become a member of their church. They were eager to throw money at me if I lost my job, or offer to help me move, but never wanted to get coffee outside church hours.
Therapists are another example, obviously financially incentivized to talk to me. There are definitely some who care simply because it's part of their personality, but that still says nothing about me and any connection they have with me.
And I shared a story elsewhere here of a priest who I had literally just met minutes before, and who actually went in for a hug the moment I mentioned having a hard time with something, as if this random hug from a complete stranger meant anything other than him following a virtue signalling script.
No, I am convinced that the solution must be free, it must be volunteers doing it without anyone knowing about it, without the belief that they're earning brownie points from God or gaining a potential member of some organization, and without getting paid or rewarded for it, except for the reward of having a new and worthwhile friendship with the lonely person.
I say this with the best of intentions: that cynicism of yours will keep you lonely
Not at all. In fact, once I learned to raise my standards for friendship, I now have significantly higher quality ones.
I have a small handful of people who I talk to regularly, who I genuinely listen to, and who genuinely listen to me, who genuinely enjoy my company, and whose company I genuinely enjoy, whether in small talk or deep conversations, serious topics or lighthearted fun.
These people give me by far the most joy in my life out of any relationships I've ever had before. And it's because we worked toward it the right way, and built our way up to it, finding common interests and building a real, organic connection from them.
It's a little like being invited to things out of pity, by people who know that you don't have any friends and struggle socially: It's nice, and I do feel their kindness from the gesture. But in the end, I only feel more isolated. I want people to hang out because they enjoy it, not out of charity. The social connection just isn't there, there's no sense of belonging, quite the opposite.
> I want people to hang out because they enjoy it, not out of charity
Maybe think about how you can behave so they can enjoy hanging out with you? Make it easy for them, that way you'll believe it :)
That's the next part of the problem: Masking. If I'm only performing so that other people like me, again I am not actually connecting with them. If I don't care about football but everyone else does, we are not actually sharing anything if I force myself to talk about football. I feel just as rejected and distant as before. And if I was on the other end, I would also not want that, for people to just twist themselves into a shape that suits me, right?
What I'm looking for, what I desire is mutuality. A space where I'm not in debt for just being there, don't have to force myself to "pay back" other's presence.
Exactly. We want to be our authentic selves, be appreciated for it, find people who find value in what we offer, and find reciprocation. Which excludes people spending time with you out of pity, and excludes people faking enjoyment or you faking it either.
Sounds like a difficult situation, and I think I can relate - I hope for you that you can find some people who you actually enjoy hanging out with and who appreciate you for who you are. We all have our little quirks, and part of a good relationship is to graciously "overlook" them. That is not twisting yourself, it's accommodating your counterpart. For personal stuff, it often helps me to get out of my head to redirect the thoughts from "what do I want" to "what do they want and how can I give it to them". Once I started considering others wants more, i also noticed more when they were gracious towards me, which, I think, made me a bit less of an ungrateful dipshit and generally easier to be around. Wish you all the best!
Either I am misunderstanding or you replied to the exact opposite of my post.
The skew of your reply seems to be "Don't be so demanding of other people, be more accomodating, give them a break and realize how much they're doing for you".
My whole point was that I do not expect people to put on an act, a show or anything for me, that I want them to be at ease and natural around me without forcing themselves. I do not want them to do anything for me. And I myself wish only to be taken as I am, without having to "pay", to extend, to do something for them, in the same way.
Perhaps I'm projecting the ghost of past conversations onto this one, but it feels like you're telling me I'm acting entitled by not wanting to pay a return for what I'm being offered. I do not value people forcing themselves to entertain me, and neither do I wish to force myself to entertain them in return. I simply do not *want* to participate in such transactional relationships. But people like you come around and "perform for me" without my asking or consent and then call me entitled for rejecting the trade. Does your kind not like being at ease? Do you give gifts only because you expect that they'll be returned? That's not the life for me.
Im curious if you ever genuinely show care for anyone else expecting nothing in return? Why do they have to do it first?
This seems like an important insight. The other top comments are about what individuals can do to improve their situation. That's absolutely valuable advice, but is at its core a solution of the form of "this wouldn't be a problem if only everyone would just...", which is never actually a solution.
What you're describing here is an answer to the question "why aren't people 'just' being more social".
Certainly too, social media has played a big hand in this, but for many people, myself included, these activities feel high-risk, with a low probability of reward. Regardless of the correctness of the perceptions that have led to this feeling, the feeling exists and it is becoming more and more pervasive across society. And, like most problems centered on feelings, "have you tried not feeling that way?" is rarely, though not never, effective.
I actually have an interesting story here. For a couple of years I found a third place for myself in VRChat. It was great, I made friends, I spent time socializing for its own sake on a daily basis for hours. But something changed over time. I'll hop on now, look at each person on my friends list, look at private and public rooms I can join, and instead of being able to just jump in, the same feelings of "this is high-risk" that hold me back IRL result in me closing the game after ten minutes or so.
So what exactly happened? My theory is that, being a completely new "kind" of space, my brain didn't see the choices as "social" in the same way as IRL. But over time it relearned the same lessons in this new context, driving me away from social interaction.
Why? What are the unconscious lessons I learned, and why did I learn them? What have I unintentionally internalized that turned an enjoyable, effective, low-stakes virtual third place into an emotional slog that incentivizes self isolation in the same way IRL socializing does?
Isn't it cheating if you have a cofounder in a loneliness startup? :)
It's excellent that you're working on loneliness! Somehow. What is it your startup actually does?
as a fellow german, is there somewhere we can find your company / product? i'd be interested in checking that out.
I wouldn't want to post it unless GP wants that, but it's discoverable via their digital footprint for those willing to put in the effort.
Props to the detective work! Might need to be more careful about reusing usernames haha
Sure! It’s a mobile app called platoniq. You can learn more about it here https://platoniq.health
We have a free scholarship option if you can’t afford the course. Our short term plan is to cooperate with (German) health insurance companies so there will be no costs on your part.
Do you have any references on loneliness interventions? Very interested.
Here’s a highly relevant, recently published paper:
Lasgaard M, Qualter P, Løvschall C, et al. Are loneliness interventions effective for reducing loneliness? A meta-analytic review of 280 studies. Am Psychol. Published online October 23, 2025. doi:10.1037/amp0001578
If you know German, you might be interested in the two books on loneliness published by Noëmi Seewer and Tobias Krieger.
Thanks!
Intentionally choose community and the effort it takes to build and cultivate it [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. People are work, but you cannot live without community [6].
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20250212233145/https://www.hhs.g...
[1] https://thepeoplescommunity.substack.com/
[3] https://www.tiktok.com/@amandalitman/video/75927501854034854...
[4] https://boingboing.net/2015/12/21/a-survivalist-on-why-you-s...
[5] https://boingboing.net/2008/07/13/postapocalypse-witho.html
[6] How A Decline In Churchgoing Led To A Rise In ‘Deaths Of Despair’ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46408406 - December 2025 (2 comments)
[flagged]
I wish you peace, warmth, and that you find your people. It was, and continues to be, hard work, but I found mine.
Why, you ask? Because your comment seemed like you had read only the title and nothing else I wrote here, and wanted to contribute off the cuff links you had stored up. And you barely even bothered to summarize any of what they contain. I've been reading this book by Dr. Vivek Hallegere Murthy ever since you linked it, and it's definitely got some great insights into it, that mirror my own thoughts and struggles with this. But in your comment, it felt like a mere afterthought. And maybe that's fine, maybe that's fair, you're a busy guy and have your own stuff to do. It's not against the rules or general moral code to write a drive by comment. But it just feels like a low effort comment. Which is why I wanted to downvote it. And now that it's surfaced higher than mine, it just feels like pouring lemon juice on a papercut.
Are you serious right now? I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, but I can see why you're dealing with loneliness. Take some time to self reflect and figure out why you lashed out here(seriously, really think about it or show some friends this dialogue without context and ask what they think, in person). Like the commenter, I hope you find you find your community, but you are far from the path. Your attitude is fixable, nobody is playing down the problems here and instead people who were in your shoes empathetically showed you a way out, but you need some serious self reflection.
In case it's not clear, original replier's comment here is absolutely correct and it doesn't necessarily have to be in a religious pretext (re: the church article), that's just a palpable example for most people. Neighbors, community centers, hobbies, etc-- these all require work on everybody's end and you must commit to these relationships to create a semblance of something to revolve your life around in lieu of drowning in loneliness.
For sure, my church citation wasn't about religion specifically, but that the decline in third spaces in general and a lack of community can be directly connected to early deaths and deaths of despair.
That's right.
Church does not have to be a church of faith, it can well be a church of reason.
What matters is that people with shared values get to spend time together on a regular basis without getting into status games that might eventually show up no matter what the church.
I've tried a few types of churches of reason and they are pretty sad, honestly. Hard core, dedicated, non-religious person here, so I'm not saying that people should go to Church, but I've never seen anything approximating a Church of Reason that would have satisfied my (admittedly minimal) social desires.
I hear you. For me things that have worked are those that are built around a hobby -- travelling to the wooded hills, astronomy, music recitals, caring for strays / abandoned pets.
Try https://www.sundayassembly.org/
Interesting suggestion! Thanks!
I agree!
I wrote that comment back when he had only one or two links, and this post had 4 comments anod 2 points. I stand by what I said: I wish I could have downvoted it for being a low effort drive by comment.
To be blunt: what you said was completely out of line. You were mad that he wasn't responding to your other comment (why wasn't it in the OP if you wanted people to read that stuff before responding?). You then got mad that his comment was voted higher than yours (again, putting all that in the OP would've fixed that, not to mention complaining about vote counts is straight up childish).
Just take the L man. You lashed out for no good reason, the person you responded had a hell of a lot more grace and tact than you showed this entire exchange, just learn from it and move on.
Agree to disagree. And as soon as I get to 500, I'm going to downvote his comment on principle alone, even if it happens next week. I'm not mad, and it's not about anything other than acting on what I believe to be right.
Argh! I can finally downvote, but not that comment, since it's a direct reply to me.
Alas, irony emerges victorious.
You asked how to solve the loneliness epidemic. I provided citations and recommendations. Are you asking me how to be the person you need to be to make bids for friendship and connectivity to establish community? And where to find people you can have an opportunity to make connections with? I can do that too.
> I'm trying to reach those people who feel the way I feel have no way of connecting with anyone, or at least feel that they don't. Do you have any new ideas of how to achieve this?
Go out and find people looking for other people. Volunteer and find events and gatherings scoped to building connections between people. Third spaces are in decline [1] [2], or in some places, non existent. This will be work. It will not be easy. You will need to work on managing the feelings of rejection and shallow people not genuinely interested in you or building a friendship (boundaries are important in this regard; have them, communicate them, and enforce them). Success is not assured. But your only choices are to try or not.
From your comment:
> I also had it hammered into me as a kid that nobody wants me around, nobody could ever love me, I'm a failure, a burden, a creep, a weirdo, and nothing but a bothersome nuisance that nobody would ever want to spend 30 seconds alone with. I'm trying to reject these thoughts, but it's difficult when you have nobody to talk to. It's like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I wonder how many people have the same issue. I've made a few friends in person, but I rarely get to see them.
In regards to this you commented, I highly recommend therapy if you can access it. It will help. This is an unnecessary burden to be carrying through adult life, and a professional might help unburden you of these feelings. The healthier you are emotionally, the easier it will be to create and maintain interpersonal relationships.
Does all of this suck? Oh yes, certainly. But we play the hand we're dealt to the best of our ability. Good luck, in as genuine terms as I can communicate in text. If you feel like I can provide more value with more questions you might have, I will do my best to help.
[1] Closure of ‘Third Places’? Exploring Potential Consequences for Collective Health and Wellbeing - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6934089/
[2] Vox: If you want to belong, find a third place - https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/24119312/how-to-find-a-thi... | https://archive.today/TYDCG - May 7th, 2024
(tangentially, I recommend replacing "idiot who doesn't understand anything" with something more like "I am early in my journey to understand, but I look forward to the experience"; love yourself first, we are all learning and sharing for the portion of the timeline we share, and it is okay to not know if we continue to want and try to learn)
I agree you (OP) must work on developing a positive view of yourself. Maybe therapy. Don't overlook clergy even if you're not religious. Religion is as much about fellowship and how to live a fulfilling life as it is about worship. Some churches (e.g. unitarian) are quite inclusive and are much more spiritual than dogmatic.
But you will find it much harder to attract friendships if you come across as needy or wanting to unburden a lifetime of problems on your new prospective friend. Not to say a longtime friend can't eventually handle some of this, but it's not a good way to start off.
I would say avoid groups that are focused on personal success or networking. These tend to be full of people who are looking for an angle or benefit for themselves, not people genuinely trying to develop friendships and connections with a community.
I'm a highly secular person and I see people constantly say things like "spiritual but not religious/dogmatic" and I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean. What does it mean?
>In regards to this you commented, I highly recommend therapy if you can access it. It will help. This is an unnecessary burden to be carrying through adult life, and a professional might help unburden you of these feelings.
I'm not the GP, but I have the same experience to them. I have been in therapy and on psychotropic medication my entire adult life, that's 2.5 decades. I'd love to know when exactly the "unburdening of these feelings" happens.
It might never happen for some, and that is terribly unfortunate (but not a reason to not make the attempt). I have no solution for that part of the human condition besides sympathy for bad luck.
I'd like to assert here that "community" can exist online as well. It's not just people staying indoors; it's about how they interact with what others write and whether they even care that another person wrote it. It's about things like coming to recognize usernames and build trust.
Of course, LLM generated content threatens that, so things have gotten worse.
A poor facsimile of community perhaps, at best
Technologists are not going to solve this with a startup, it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good.
Quoting from elsewhere in this thread: "I have made big inroads solving my old-age isolation with AI. Personally, I prefer Claude."
The people who most exacerbated this epidemic were forged here in this culture and were rewarded with trillions in investment to step between every social interaction, to monetize our connections, to maximize our 'engagement' and capitalize on the damage they caused. They will not stop until there are laws and enforcement mechanisms that address these perverse incentives.
Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media. We've foreclosed casual connection in so many ways, and social media stepped into that gap and wrenched as hard as it could. Lower real wage growth also matters, free time and funds are required for a full social calendar.
It's multifaceted, but none of these issues can be solved without real political power that counters the whims of capital, venture or otherwise.
> Building American cities around the whims of car manufacturers is, to my mind, as bad as any social media.
I think your framing of history is wrong. Trains, and later cars were extraordinarily convenient compared to former methods of travel. We adapted infrastructure to maximize this convenience, not to profit companies. In fact, it's the other way around: companies profited off the demand for convenience they provided.
The same could be said for social media. People wanted small, low-risk interactions with other people over the internet. Companies capitalized on this, and realized that increasing dopamine is the only way to increase capital.
> it requires organized political and social movements, then the legislation and re-allocation of public funds for the public's good
I would reverse the first two, or maybe even remove the "political movement" part. Why is it necessary? It always starts with (a) one person taking concrete action on some principle, then (b) one small group of people joining that person on principle, then (c) this turning into a movement on principle and snowballing momentum until the change is exponentially impactful on society. Later, when the public agrees it's a good thing, they may choose to publicly fund it. Only a-c are necessary for it to make a meaningful impact.
Car companies funded highway lobbies and conspired to dismantle public transportation options like street cars see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
Personally, I liked Maya from Sesame for empathic conversations: https://app.sesame.com
However, I am not sure this is actually a solution to the (root) problem.
I don't have a full answer, but a couple thoughts:
1. Volunteer. Somewhere, anywhere, for a good cause, for a selfish cause. Somebody will be happy to see you.
2. Stop trolling ourselves. As far as I can tell, all of the mass social media is trending sharply towards being a 100% troll mill. The things people say on social media do not reflect genuine beliefs of any significant percentage of the population, but if we continue to use social media this way, it will.
Disengage from all of the trolls, including and especially the ones on your "own side".
> the mass social media is trending sharply towards being a 100% troll mill
I agree. It's one reason I still come to HN and it's one of the few places I bother to comment (and the only place with more than a few dozen users). The moderation and community culture against trolling makes it a generally positive experience. I do still need breaks sometimes, though, for a few months at a time.
I'd love an online community where everyone was having discussions only in good faith. Zero trolling. I can dream.
> I'd love an online community where everyone was having discussions only in good faith.
That's already readily available outside. The whole appeal of online 'communities' is that it is not that.
The appeal of an online community is having members who participate in bad faith? That's an angle I hadn't expected.
Sure. Outside already satisfies good faith discussion. There is nothing gained in duplicating the exact same thing online. Use the right tool for the job, as they say. Online discussion is a compelling in its own right because you can stop being you and take on someone else's persona to try and discuss from their vantage point. This gives opportunity to understand another side of the story in an environment that provides the necessary feedback to validate that you actually understand another side. Too often people think they understand other angles, but one will also want validation, which online discussion provides. More often than not you'll realize that you actually didn't understand it at all, so it is a valuable exercise.
Thank you for explaining your position. I don't know if I would have described that as bad faith, more like good-faith-in-disguise, but I understand what you are getting at.
> Thank you for explaining your position.
We're on the internet. Is it my position?
> I don't know if I would have described that as bad faith, more like good-faith-in-disguise
It is good faith from the author's perspective, but bad faith/trolling from the reader's perspective. It, as taken from an expectation of replication of what is found outside, is deceptive. There, of course, can be no such thing as bad faith/trolling if you remove trying to see it as a reflection of outside.
So, as the earlier comments are taken from the reader's perspective, it is what is labelled bad faith. But I too get what you're saying.
I would also argue that even people who I like a lot and have known for many years can be very different "people" online than in person. It's sometimes shocking the dichotomy. I try to remind myself and others to ignore some of the online weirdness and focus on the in person interaction.
And volunteering works not just because it's "good", but because it gives you a role where your presence matters immediately
> Stop trolling ourselves
This is so tough, though, because the things happening in the world really, genuinely, do matter and its very hard to realize that our passive emotional reaction to them is not meaningful, probably actively bad for us. If I could snap my fingers and do one thing, I'd obliterate social media from the face of the earth.
> The things people say on social media do not reflect genuine beliefs of any significant percentage of the population
The social media trolls are running the government. This can't be a serious take in 2026.
Two thoughts:
1. Almost every policy of the current US administration is deeply unpopular.
2. The vast majority of social media users do not comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule
As far as the troll mills go everyone forgot the adage from the olden days "don't feed the trolls".
Now everyone feeds the trolls.
Forget it Jake, it's engagement bait. - Chinatown (1974)
Bad incentives will ruin anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m7hf5WUs8o
Whatever else you think of Bluesky, it's a place where trolling and doomerism are rejected. The nuclear block (and a culture of block, don't engage) does wonders for denying actual trolls an audience, and secondarily for permitting people to do the virtual equivalent of walking away from someone who's behaving badly. In particular, doomerism about Trump is minimized there the same way.
There's a fine line between "rejecting doomerism" and "putting your fingers in your ears and going 'lalala'" though, and it's important not to cross it.
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if we're just shooting the messenger in placing the blame on social media.
Bluesky is full of people angry and screaming about Trump. In my feed, at least, though, the "it's all fascism, we're doomed" posters are getting blocked. It's an angry call to action that survives. They're consciously recognizing the pessimism is counterproductive and blocking.
I once shard a flat/apartment with a female social butterfly. She once gave me some great advice, which is to NEVER turn down an invitation.
Going out and trying to be comfortable in non-ideal situations (i.e. you know hardly anyone there) is a skill you can learn. I often think it's probably like sales cold calling. After a while you develop calluses.
I see this is still front-page news.
There’s really two main ingredients to loneliness:
1) We don’t meet others in a way that sparks relationships.
2) We have personal issues that interfere with our ability to have relationships.
#1 is fairly straightforward. We have the ability to make friends; but lack the opportunity. If we can meet and interact with others, we’ll make friends, and mitigate our isolation. We need to “get out more.” We can join organizations, go places, right-swipe on apps, and we’ll eventually break our isolation. I’ve found that a key is to get together with others, over shared interests or goals.
#2 is a different beast. We need to work on ourselves, first and foremost. We may often need help, like therapy or guided self-help. Usually, there’s a lot of pretty humbling work involved. If we don’t treat the root cause (our own issues), then we can meet as many people as possible, and we’ll still be lonely.
Lots of potential reasons for our problems. Could be trauma, neurodivergence, addiction, mental health problems, personal insecurity, or simply lack of experience. Often, a combination of these.
The good news is, is that if we get serious about treating our own issues, we will absolutely end the isolation. Almost every treatment involves a lot of interaction with others, and relationship-building.
For myself, I was definitely in the #2 category. I’m “on the spectrum,” and I had an addiction problem. Intervention was required, and I needed to stop running, turn around, and face my demons. I needed to learn to ask for, and, even more importantly, accept, help. I had to develop a taste for crow and humble pie. Doing this, changed everything.
That was 45 years ago, when I was 18. The road has been anything but smooth, but it’s always been onward and upward. Today, I have close relationships all over the world, with an enormous variety of people, and have done work that affects thousands of lives in a positive manner.
I’ve also found that helping others to deal with their own issues has been effective.
From my perspective and the people I'm trying to reach out to, they basically need someone to help them see that they are cared about and valued, someone to ask them how their day is over coffee with no strings attached, and not because they're trying to earn brownie points with God, or trying to increase their internal virtue signal, but because they genuinely care about the other person.
Your #1 is great for after this connection with another human being has been made. Your #2 is why it hasn't been made yet. I'm trying to find solutions for the middle, to solve #2 for random strangers on the street, in order to get them both able and motivated to do #1. Those strangers are people who sit alone at home, all day, every day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back.
I'm glad you got the help you needed to bootstrap your ability to find and form meaningful relationships. If only there was a reproducible way to help countless others get past that initial hump, and begin the same process. I believe it must be possible somehow.
I've been trying my surveys in Chicago as a first step. I need to do more, though, somehow. Now that I'm known as the "sign guy" by many people who pass me by every time I'm there, I think I can get more creative than surveys, and try signs that are more interactive to reach out to those people. I've been brainstorming throughout this thread on a few different ways to do this. If you or anyone has concrete ideas, I'd be very glad to hear it.
The “#1.5,” is that we have often developed “loneliness-inducing habits,” that need to be broken. We don’t necessarily have any real “issues,” other than we’ve just gotten used to “hanging out with ourselves.”
Breaking habits isn’t easy. It’s nearly impossible, if we have a compulsive disorder, but, then, we’d be #2.
The key to anything is willingness. If we don’t actually want to do something, then it ain’t happening.
But there’s a hell of a lot more #2, than folks are willing to admit.
Not for everyone but if you can, get a dog. Dogs are icebreakers. People like to meet a cute dog. They won't know your name at first but you will be "Fido's Dad" or "Dave's Mom". Other dog owners will greet you and so long as your dogs don't hate each other you already have something in common.
A dog gives you a reason to be wherever you want to be - take a walk around the neighborhood or to the park. You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes, you're walking the dog.
But for for goodness sake, pick up after the pooch. If you can wipe your own arse you can pick up a dog turd with a plastic bag.
Anecdotally, I've had a lot of people in my life recede after getting pets. They're an excellent excuse to say no to things that you might otherwise do, because you need to get home and take care of the pet or you can't find a sitter to go on a trip etc.
Not generalizing to all people, but I think for some a pet can reinforce anti-social tendencies.
Dogs are a bit like having kids, if you embrace it. They make it tougher to do extended trips (e.g. foreign countries), but you can develop an entire social network through them. Doing dog-related trips is a new world of opportunities. I did a three night stay across the state with a bunch of my dog park friends a few years ago. Hikes with the dogs during the day, beer and board games every evening.
I have an older neighbor who just absolutely loves dogs. He sits by his window all day long and runs outside every time a dog comes by to give them a treat. On hot days he has bowls filled with ice water and a kiddy pool for them to splash in.
I lived here almost 6 years before doing much more than a smile and nod to him, but my next door neighbors with a dog befriended him almost as soon as they moved in.
It wasn't until our son started walking and would stop and try and play in the dog water that we ever really talked to him.
> You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes
Good god, where do you live where people think like that?
I take it you’ve never been on the NextDoor app or any neighborhood Facebook Groups…
The irony is they're the weirdos
But that's like befriending others through the kids. Those usually are very shallow relationships. If they suddenly stop seeing you they wouldn't even check if you are OK or what happened. I guess it's better than nothing but that's not for me.
Having many shallow relationships is the first (well, second) step towards having a few deeper ones. You can't befriend people you never meet, and people find it extremely offputting for someone they don't know to immediately try to be their best friend.
I've never, ever seen a shallow friendship turn into a deep friendship. OTOH you might meet someone to date.
Plenty of my former coworkers have evolved into lifelong substantial friendships.
What started with smalltalk evolved into conversations over lunch which then afforded after work socializing which then led to actively scheduling time for shared interests. All of those provided ample opportunity to learn almost everything about that person and open the door to a deep friendship when mutually desired.
Have you never made a deep friendship? How else would anybody make deep friendships? First you do things that let you meet people, then you make acquaintances, then you make setting-specific friends (work friends, gym buddies, etc), then you start inviting/being invited to do things that aren't based around that shared setting, and then you have friendships.
Either that or your definition of deep friendship is substantially off.
Most of my deep friendships were through friends and family. A handful at work/school. And it is the same way for most people I know. But I'm not American, so that's that.
Making friends through work and school are pretty much exactly what I described. You go to a place with people, you meet a lot of people, and some of the shallow acquaintances end up becoming long term friends.
>>>>>>> "Not for everyone but if you can, get a dog."
Your original comment.
The key is: have a conversation starter.
It can be any other activity that requires more than one person. For example I started going to dance classes with my partner in november and what was just awkward "hello there" interactions before the holidays when we had to swap dance partners is now a bit more comfortable and we exchange a bit much and even have a chit chat after class at the door. It is waaaaaay too early to know if it will create new long term friends but the dynamic is here and after just a few weeks I can already spot the people I have absolutely no wish to know more about and those that I feel natural chatting with.
You seem extremely judgemental and narrow in your view of the world. This is probably why you have difficulty forming deep friendships without the social proof of family.
As a counter example, I've made some of the best friends of my life through walking my dog at the local dog park over the last decade. Seeing how people are dedicated to and treat their dogs gives me a great insight into their personalities.
Really? Growing up almost all of my parents best friends were the parents of my best friends. This is a common story among my current group of friends.
> You're not a rando taking a walk for mysterious and possible nefarious purposes
It's a little counterintuitive, but I find walking around with a camera has this effect too (depending on where you're pointing it of course).
> get a dog
I briefly considered it but I don't want to be the asshole. I would put any pet in exact position I am myself trying to avoid - stuck in home, alone for long periods of time.
The older people get the more disposable they are viewed as by society.
When you are younger, you belong in school. When you get older, you belong at work.
If you fall out of any of these social structures its extremely difficult to find your way back in.
I was already pretty disconnected from society and people in general when my divorce hit and now I am completely untethered from any kind of community. Living is miserable I hate my life and I do not want to exist like this anymore.
None of the solutions people provide are easy or functional. "Go meet people" is the most vague, unhelpful bullshit ever.
I think the reality is some people, no matter how intelligent, caring or otherwise full of empathy they may be are just "too far gone" for anyone to have the initiative or concern to care about us. The world is so corroded and socially poisoned that any kind of meaningful effort in this kind of thing is pointless. Anybody with time or money is busy making money.
You can't solve the epidemic because it is a byproduct of multiple irreparably broken systems. People will continue to fall through the cracks and it will get worse. I don't know what happens after that but we'll probably all be dead.
I know a lot of very old people who do charity work, and will continue until they fall over or until they just physically can't anymore.
Younger people are at school, a very social institution. After school they do sports or hobby, usually a very social activity. When it's their birthday, a party is organized.
When you are older, you have plenty of social interaction at work.
One of our colleagues is in a divorce. She's often miserable but gets a lot of support from her colleagues, she's invited at every activity, gets emotional support etc.
I do understand what you are trying to say though!
I'm not sure what country you live in, maybe people there are not very social... is there a possibility to move? Sometimes such event gives a totally different perspective on the world.
This is something that I care deeply about and have put a lot of thought into. I can only speak to what I think needs to be done in America.
Public transportation.
Removing or heavily rolling back zoning laws.
Government investment in child care.
Nature takes the path of least resistance. If we want people to actually meet people and have the energy to make meaningful connections, the government has to set up the infrastructure to make it possible.
I’m going to gloss over Europe because I went there for the first time, and it blew my mind.
People were at the park at 4 pm! I live in a city and hardly see people outside at 4. They have the time to go to these 3rd places.
People were visiting friends with kids, which blew my mind because everyone I know who has had a child instantly has dropped off the grid socially. I understand why, but we need to make it easier for those children and parents to continue to have social interaction.
In my hometown, everything is so spread out that visiting a friend could be a 30-min drive. I was conditioned to believe that isn’t a lot, but at the end of a workday, who has the energy? Personally, I think public transportation would help that also create a lot more interactions with strangers to maybe create new friendships.
Also, zoning laws would help that. If everything there is to do is 40 min away, it adds so much resistance that it’s not worth it for most people. If every neighborhood had a pub or restaurant, it would add a lot of meeting points for your neighbors and will create a lot more spontaneous, “let’s invite this stranger to eat with us.”
Lastly, we have to work less. This is the toughest to chew. I’m fully in the office now, but when I was hybrid, it was so much easier to see friends because I had some ownership of my time. We need to have the energy to be social.
I have a lot of friends but don’t have the time or energy to see them so I have felt lonely for the past couple of years.
I think it’s true walkable communities like Europe kinda feels like college, everyone is busy and have their own life but hanging out is so accessible that it’s a matter of why not hang out compared to why hang out
A large number of these things did not exist when we had a lot less isolation, and a stronger social connection.
You dont need public transportation if you have a strong community proximal to you.
You dont need government childcare if You have teenagers (inexpensive babysitters) or family members to do it.
Nature takes the path of least resistance. I would suggestion this is reductionistic. People take the past of high certainty and higher rewards (albeit favoring the former)
If people _knew_ they would have a good time if they showed up at an event, they likely would do it.
Parents need reliable childcare. A teenager or aging parents can't fill this gap reliably. I need somebody to watch the kids most days from 8 until 4. A high schooler won't be able to do this. My in-laws who live 1.5 hours away and have mobility issues (plus their own lives) can't always do that.
I agree we need strong community in close proximity, but still people need to travel to destinations a few miles from their houses sometimes. Biking is a great (this is my primary form of transportation) but even I know biking and walking cannot fill every transportation need. We need the trifecta of biking/walking/transit to ween ourselves off of cars and develop denser communities with more people to interact with in our day-to-day lives.
> can't fill this gap reliably
Except they did... for centuries ?? How can we claim that relying on community and a network of people is unreliable when it was the defacto solution for as long as we've existed?
Historically, people wouldn't even move out of the village, never mind across the continent. So it was a bit easier to get the kids to the grannies.
Many answers address the question of "how to build community." I like those responses! I also want to contribute to the discussion with an emotional intelligence response. The theory is that "loneliness" can be a symptom of underlying internal factors.
While it is true that loneliness can arise from a lack of community, people, and related factors, for some people, the problem stems from not knowing how to be alone. At its core, the question becomes, "Am I externalizing my world, or internalizing my world?" When you externalize your world, you require something external. We are social creatures, and I do believe we need other people. I'm only suggesting that sometimes people need to look internally first.
Personal anecdote: No amount of community would have helped me feel like I wasn't alone, because I needed the world around me to provide some sense of my self-worth. It felt counterintuitive, but for me, I had to learn to be alone. Only then could I feel like I wasn't alone. It all came down to attachment theory and self-worth.
Could you give some pointers re: Internal sense of self-worth, especially as relating to attachment theory? How did you get better?
Thanks for asking! Until I learned to be alone without feeling abandoned by myself, no amount of connection could make me feel less lonely. Here is a rough outline of topics and how I feel they relate.
In attachment terms, loneliness can be a signal that we haven't yet internalized a stable sense of safety and worth. I wasn't missing others, I was missing an internal relationship with myself.
I was anxious even with others, because safety, worth, and regulation were outsourced to my relationships. I needed others to constantly help me feel those things. That was me externalizing my self worth.
I was avoidant with myself, because the connection with myself felt unsafe or unfamiliar. I leaned on things, status, money, in order to avoid looking deep within my heart. In the end, I had to do a lot of internal work. I had to learn that I matter even when no one is affirming me. Leaning on those <things> was self-abandonment in disguise. I would think, "If only I just had a little more knowledge I could solve this." We generally don't solve heart problems with our head.
Loneliness eased when I stopped trying to get my sense of self from the external world. I had to become someone that I could be with. Someone I didn't need to escape from.
How I accomplished it was not a short journey, but in summary it looked like:
1) Knowing my past, tolerating the discomfort, and sitting in it without judgement. I did this with a therapist.
2) Having a safe individual who always nurtured me, and taught me how to be OK with my big feelings. This was with an emotional intelligence coach. I felt the loneliness ease greatly once I could affirm myself.
3) Now that I had the knowledge to know my heart and my worth, I could then create connections outside of myself. I see this like, having the book knowledge, but now being able to learn how true it was experientially. This led to meeting my best friend and partner in this life. Having someone close to co-regulate, when I need support, and providing that in return, has been the final piece of the puzzle.
I firmly believe that most people need someone to co-regulate with. We can't white-knuckle our way to knowing ourselves better, but boy did I try!
Thanks again, and best of luck on your journey if you are on it :).
Thank you for giving such a comprehensive answer, this is very helpful.
I was addicted to weed from ages 15-23. I have clinical depression and anxiety/OCD (now medicated and stable). I basically isolated and got stuck in a loop of believing I was broken and a bad person. When I committed to quitting I joined addiction recovery groups and asked for help instead of trying to do it alone. I still rely on the wisdom I gained in AA/MA. Trust God, clean house, help others, go do something when you are in danger of wallowing in self pity. 4 years later, I have a few real friends and many acquaintances. I swing dance and volunteer. I work in a semi-social office. Life is good. I still get paranoid thoughts, but they don't own or define me. I wish the best to all the lonely programmers and alienated people out there.
Awesome and inspiring! Many blessings to you
I am in North Seattle, and I have a flock of nerds under me that would like to see real demonstrations of penetration testing via radio (Wifi and more). I have been proposing doing monthly meetups where we go up on a the rooftop of various buildings, bust out the tools, the antennas, and every other toy we have to scan and show how it's done. There are stories about others and me that the younger generation would love to see in action and then we teach what is going on, how we are doing it, and more importantly, when we find a vulnerable target, offer help to fix the hole. Kind of like white hat pen testing. So many of the younger generation wants to exploit things, but do not understand the ethics as to why and why not, and how to do good with having those sort of skills. I know this might be slightly off topic, but I think the real answer to the question here is who is willing to take the lead and step out of the normal club, party, con, meetup crap and get back to the old school groups like we had back in the 90s?
It seems a lot of you are in Seattle and I'm willing to try and host an event like this if any of you might be interested.
Please count me in if these ever gets going -- I'm a relatively recent transplant (moved here 2 years ago) but found it very easy to plug into the local security scene (Black Lodge Research, Harry's on Thursdays, HushCon, etc.) and while they're fun to hang out and meet other folks in the space, I've been looking for a more hands-on tinkering meetup with clearly defined goals (we are going to learn about XYZ today).
P.S. if you're a hardware nerd, you might like https://dma.space/ (just had their grand opening this weekend) over in Capitol Hill.
Seattle is a great city for stuff like this. You probably already know about the Seattle Robotics Society, but if not, check them out.
https://seattlerobotics.org/
They have monthly meeting and are active in all kinds of events around the city.
A social circle is like a garden, inasmuch as you have to put in work to tend and maintain it. You have to put yourself in a position of potential awkwardness or rejection, which isn't easy. Interacting with people (especially strangers) also takes practice - small talk is a skill like any other.
If you already have a friendship circle, start being the one to propose meetups (cafe, pub, picnic, hike, etc.) If you don't, it's harder - join a social sporting league, group fitness class, dance class, DnD group, anything where people have to talk with each other. When you arrive, turn your phone off for the interval. It might take a couple of goes to find something that sticks or the right environment.
I think that the real trick of "solving" the loneliness epidemic is that it isn't spread evenly. Everyone has their own individual level of opportunity for social interaction, so the solution is hyper-local and individualised. There's no one size fits all solution.
I doubt it's the solution, but a silly program I want to build is something like this:
- Give users a modern Tamagotchi
- Give the digital pet a need to socialize.
- Strap a basic LLM to it so users can talk to their pet.
- Have the pet imprint on its owner through repeated socialization.
- Owner goes to bed, pet still has social needs, goes out into the digital world to find other pets.
- Pet talks to other pets while you're asleep, evaluates interactions, befriend those with good interactions.
- Owner wakes up the next morning, checks their pet, learns it befriended other pets based on shared interests, and is given an opportunity to connect with their pet's friends' owners. Ideally these connections have a better-than-random chance of succeeding since you're matched via shared interests.
I'm sure there's a ton of unsexy technical reasons this is hard to make work well in practice... but dang, I think it would be so cool if it worked well.
I realize this exacerbates the issue in some ways - promoting online-first interactions. But, I dunno. I'll take what I can get these days, lol.
A thought-provoking vision. There seem many many underexplored opportunities for catalyzing social connections - match making.
When I'm doing "broad and shallow" at a meetup, there are invariably "oh, you'll want to talk with X over there, they <overlap on some intent interest>". It can feel tragic to look out at a room of nifty people, in largely desultory conversations, knowing that there are some highly-valued conversations latent there, which won't occur, because our social and cultural and technical collaborative infrastructure still sucks so badly at all this.
In lectures augmented by peer-instruction, addressing the "if you think your lectures are working, your assessment also isn't" problem, one version has students clicker-committing to a question answer, then turning to discuss it with a neighbor, then clickering again. One variant (which you now many not be able to use commercially, because of the failed-startup-to-bigco patent pipeline), has the system chose who everyone turns to (your phone tells you "discuss with the person behind left"), attempting to maximize discussion fruitfulness, using its insight into who is confused about what. So perhaps imagine Tamagotchis as part social liaison - "hey, did you know the gal at the optometry shop here also enjoys heavy bluewater sailing?"
So on the topic question: Want to incentivize greater social contact...? Increase the payoffs.
It kind of sounds like you want to automate small talk. I think we need to have less tech, not more, if we're trying to solve this problem.
I could see how it could be interpreted that way!
In my mind, it's more like meeting new acquaintances at the dog park. Dogs start playing with each other and getting along and you end up chatting with the other dog's owner while watching the dogs play together. Trying to recreate those vibes with digital pets.
LLMs are a scam and should not be used to address loneliness.
Solitude is not the same as loneliness. A person can feel lonely surrounded by others. Like being the only non-drinker in a family Christmas celebration.
Loneliness is when there is a gap between desire for companionship/connection and reality.
I've done both extended periods of home office and a period of co-working in an open plan space. I didn't feel lonely in the home office. I guess because I did it by choice and had the agency to opt into joining a co-working.
I think that loneliness could be a symptom of lack of connection. And this need for connection can in some cases be fulfilled online or even through reading books. Participating in forums like hackernews or effect-ts satisfies some of the handful facets of connection that I need. It gives me a feeling of not being totally alone with some of my ideas.
From personal experience, I know that interacting with people on social media barely helps with loneliness, especially with an increase in bots.
What I know would help me is to have genuine relationships, friendships where we both care about each other, even if it's something as small as having coffee with them every day, learning about the other person, asking how their day was, and having these things be reciprocated voluntarily.
Even something so small would mean the world to someone like me, as long as it's coming from someone who I respect, who has something I admire about them. This part is important for a friendship. It can't just be any random person, it has to be someone with qualities I admire. I'm still trying to work out what that means and why it is.
All of the replies so far are suggesting ideas for an individual but seem to be missing the real crux of the matter...
Yes, you'll be less lonely if you join a group, get out of your house, etc... But how do we actively incentivize that? Social media and whatnot have hundreds of thousands of people working around the clock to find ways to suck you in and monopolize your time.
While "everyone should recognize the problem and then take steps to solve it for themselves" is the obvious solution, it's also not practical to just have everyone collectively decide they need to get out more without SOME sort of fundamental change in our society/incentives/etc
I agree with this, and I think we're partly conditioned to think this way. We (think we) can change ourselves, but we (believe we) can't change the world. I think it's OK to think bigger.
To make friends, people need a place to meet, to have time and means to be there, and a reason to go there semi-regularly. A lot of the design of society completely ignores these needs. These are solvable problems.
We invented Soma from Brave New World. No amount of individual action will overcome the primary cause. Getting rid of Soma is the only effective solution.
Even if you avoid Soma yourself, you will still face the negative effects of a society plagued by Soma.
That’s kind of the conclusion I came to. I can make changes in my life, but when everybody else is sucked in by social media and doesn’t even see the issue trying to build bridges is futile. The only person you can rely on is yourself, the sooner you can accept being alone the better. I lived in Japan for a while which is a much more solitary place than the UK. I think things in the West are going the same direction. More normalisation of solitary activities, increasing social distance, and fewer new families being started. Grim future.
The end of this assumes the snowball fallacy.
Just because people appear to be doing more isolated things doesn’t mean it’s a ratchet that only moves in 1 direction. People adjust. When enough people feel too lonely, they will adapt and many of them will come up with a solution, likely swinging the pendulum in the other direction.
It is a ratchet though. South Korea's birth rate has been at an existential level for at least a decade and shows no sign of improving. Things won't improve while technology and tech companies are warping what it means to be human.
Now there's chatter about AI companions. If they take off and substitute real relationships it's game over. Swathes of the population will bed rot because they have no incentive to go outside for anything other than work.
I believe it's more likely to lead to political extremism and a positive (rather than negative) feedback loop.
Yeah, lots of "change your habits" type responses that won't change the reason we're here.
> But how do we actively incentivize that?
Is immediately and completely solving the problem not a good enough incentive? If you go outside and interact, you will be much less lonely.
There is no barrier! You don't need to overthink this. Walkable cities third spaces etc., all great — but literally just go out and interact with people you can do it today many people do it to great success!
You're completely missing the point. The problem is people aren't collectively incentivized to do so. Individually someone can decide "oh wow, I'm lonely, I should get out more", but collectively there's nothing incentivizing everyone to do it, or even notice it's an issue. If there were, we wouldn't be in this situation.
---
"How do we solve the obesity problem?" "Well people should just work out."
Obviously, that would solve it, but they're distinctly not doing that, which is why we're talking about a broader solution to actually get people to work out.
> The problem is people aren't collectively incentivized to do so.
Yes, we are — please believe me that a LOT of people go out into the world and interact with each other. Doing so is extremely heavily incentivized by all of the wonderful and beautiful things that happen in the world all the time, both quotidian and sublime.
There is critical mass!
So then I guess it seems like you're rejecting the premise then that there's a loneliness epidemic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loneliness_epidemic
I get what you're saying -- I leave my house more than most. But I think it's pretty clear we're trending away from that being the default.
This is pretty spot on. It is like telling deug addicts to stop buying legal and unregulated drugs. Never gonna work.
Real change will require enforced regulation on the methods and tactics social media is allowed to use. Things like notification limits, rules on gamification, feed transparency, and more.
In the states this will never happen. The corporations own the rules.
Drive up demand for third places where people can meet new friends.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink
>> But how do we actively incentivize that?
Pre-schedule it. Ideally recurring. Can be monthly. Possibly even bi-weekly. Agree on a time and do it on schedule. Pre-scheduling removes all the mental load of finding a time together.
People need to purposefully and intentionally do things. Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. There is no fear or rejection, there is no work to get out of the house, there is no risk. But there is also no reward.
My thoughts on this are you need to have multiple roots into your community. This is something that you go to often and talk to people, become a regular, say hi. Think back to how your parents or grandparents did it: They went to church/temple/synagogue, they went to PTA meetings, they talked to their neighbors, they were in clubs, they went to the same bar.
So I think doing things that get you out of the house, consistently the most important part:
1. People need to make a point to talk to their neighbors, invite them over for dinner or bbqs, make small talk. How towns are constructed now is a hindrance to this (unwalkable towns where all of the houses are big garages in the front and no porches).
2. Join a religious organization. Go to church, but also join the mens/womens group, join a bible studies class. Attend every week.
3. Join social clubs / ethnic organization. The polish or ukrainian clubs, knights of columbus, elks, freemasons. Go every week.
4. Join a club / league. Chess club, bowling league, softball league, golf league. Tech meetups, DnD Night etc. But you have to talk with people and try to elevate things to friendships.
5. Have lunch, happy hour, etc with coworkers.
I think the trick is getting off social media.
When I was a computer nerd in the 2000s, I noticed people used to like to hang around and chat, but I mostly didn't.
Now, everyone is an internet addict, and I was just ahead of the curve. No one hangs around and chats anymore.
When you get off social media, real life becomes far more interesting. The problem with addiction is that it's so stimulating that everything else is boring. You have to let your mind reset.
I agree but if your goal is to socialize more, it's not enough to get off social media. You need to be in a place where enough other people do too.
Think of a city as both a spatial and a temporal grouping of people that are in the same place at the same time. Every hour a person spends at home on social media is an hour that they aren't really in the city and are not available for you to socialize with.
The cumulative hours that people spend staring at their phones are effectively a massive loss of population density. That lost density makes it harder to find people even if you yourself are getting off a screen and looking for them.
I thought of this the other day. I was on the train ride back from Chicago, and there was a family of four adults, sitting across from me, all just staring at their phones. I was effectively alone at that point in time. None of them were present. But you explained it in a new way I had not thought of before. They're quite literally not there in that moment, for however long that moment lasts.
I took the train from Seattle to Portland last fall. Half of the people in the observation car were on Nintendo Switches the entire time. In the observation car.
I heard the unofficial motto for BlackBerry from friends, something along the lines of "make distant friends be nearby, and nearby friends distant"
just find a hobby that involves other people. any kind of team sport, r/c airplanes, shooting, bird watching, the options are pretty endless. You'll meet other people, make friends, and not be so lonely.
> You'll meet other people, make friends
'Making friends' doesn't occur by just being in proximity to people.
Quite likely at the end of the night they'll return to their lives and you won't be invited to interact with them again until the next meeting. That's if you're not excluded from existing club cliques - I've gone to many different meetings and come away at the end feeling more alone.
You're right, you have to take a risk and go introduce yourself and talk. The thing with joining hobby clubs or groups is that you immediately have something in common to talk about. If you're lucky, some groups will have a person in the group who will see someone sitting alone, and go introduce them and drag them in. But not everybody picks up on that stuff or wants to make the effort on your behalf.
And yes, it's normal that people don't just immediately become best friends and want to hang out with one person they just met for an hour at a meeting. Especially if that person doesn't even say hello. Sometimes it happens though! It helps a lot if you just go back a couple of times.
The thing I love about car meets is that I can just go up to someone, ask them about their car, and tell them that I like it. You can do the same with any hobby, just go to meets where people are doing things, and not just showing up with nothing. Bring things to share, and a lot of times that brings people to you. Another thing you can do is ask for help with something. People love to help!
Ham nerds are the same way. Electronics nerds are the same way. Computer geeks do the same thing too. I'm sure every hobby is the same way. Find something you like doing and it makes it a lot easier. But the point is if you don't put in any effort, nothing will happen.
> 'Making friends' doesn't occur by just being in proximity to people. [...] Quite likely at the end of the night they'll return to their lives and you won't be invited to interact with them again until the next meeting.
Yes because sharing an activity involves greetings, interactions, group laughs which break the glass before more conversations starts and making friends becomes naturally a possibility.
Friendship is something that grow, not something that gets created in all its deepness from nowhere.
I think the real cause of the loneliness epidemic is that the older generation never taught us how to socialise and make friends.
I make an effort to talk to people and now we have "come over to dinner" friendships with people we met at a public park.
> I think the real cause of the loneliness epidemic is that the older generation never taught us how to socialise and make friends.
That is false. First because most of the social learning is done by mimicking what others do and we certainly all saw our parents invite and get invited to stuff.
Plus there is school which is the #1 place where your learn to socialize and make friends.
I think "meetings" are a poor (or at least, very inconsistent) way of making friends. Doing activities together is the best way of making friends. Bonus points if it's for multiple hours, or there's an element of risk where you have to look after / trust each other, or stay overnight somewhere.
Examples include clubs for walking / running / cycling / scuba clubs etc. It doesn't have to be physical activity, but since you need exercise anyway, then you might as well get those endorphins whilst socialising.
> just find a hobby that involves other people... shooting,
Ok that one made me chuckle just from the initial reading of the wording.
I don't disagree though, I do competitive bullseye, and it is definitely a communal thing. Many old guys at the range in particular seem to be there for 99% talking at you, and 1% actual shooting related stuff.
If I'm going to the range for a set of three position, a 120-shot session by myself takes like 2.5 hours including setup and teardown. If there's talkative-old-guy at the range, then I'm there for 4 hours, and I don't even make it through 60 shots lol.
Which is fine for someone like me who is a competitive shooter but not like really trying to be the absolute best, I don't mind spending 60 minutes doing bullseye and 180 minutes chatting about whatever. The actual competitive shooters at the range though, they'll either have someone screen talkative-old-guy for them, or just otherwise make it clear that they are Serious and not to be bothered.
I tried to list things that are very different to just illustrate the range of options that are out there:)
"Activity partners" are pretty easy to find. What's harder is getting them to make the transition to deeper friendship where you spend time together outside of the activity.
Birding is great.
This problem is not going to be solved by individual action. Sure there is some things you can and should do, but for it to be solved at a population scale it has to involve changing the actual structure of society that caused the problem in the first place.
Tackling phone addiction and lack of public spaces is going to be critical.
A big problem for me personally is that, well, frankly, there really aren't many options around me. I live in a small farming town of 6000 people, and most things are 25-45 min away *by car*.
> I was just ahead of the curve.
I can relate to this. I was always moderately extroverted and sociable, but the irony has never ceased to flabbergast me that the very behaviours and interests for which nerds like me would have been stuffed into lockers and garbage cans (if I had dared to tell anyone in school that I was into computers) became, only a decade later, de rigueur for every young person.
I remember sitting in a coffee shop in 2003 (senior year of HS) trying to get kernel drivers for a PCMCIA 802.11b card to work on an ancient Compaq laptop, and being pointed, laughed at, and called -- by modern standards -- unconscienable names by a table of high schoolers nearby. It must have seemed so strange to them to see someone's head so deeply in a laptop.
And my goodness, I wouldn't have dared to confess that I talk to strangers in faraway places _online_. To be known to have substantive computer-based interactions would have branded one so profoundly socially unsuccessful, that one's very family name would be cursed with this prejudice for two generations. AIMing one's classmates on the family PC was one thing, but chatting online to likeminded peers in other countries? Why, that was radiantly gay!
But literally a few years later, I can't get anyone to make eye contact and they frequently plough into me because their heads are buried in their phones, texting people they never see.
A'ight.
Trust me I am in 2025 and I am in senior high school and whenever I try to talk about open source or linux or anything others. Friends have point blank said that they aren't interested in it. (only one friend showed interest/shows interests at times)
the most ironical part is that they want to become software engineers for just the money aspect but fundamentally they really don't know anything about the field or are even interested to talk about.
So in a sense this still happens :) This happened so much that I had to cut off my friends because the only thing that they were interested in talking about were woman or insta shorts and very few intellectual discussion could happen (atleast with that friend group and I would consider that friend group to be more intellectual among other peers but for some reason they just never wanted to discuss intellectual topics other than some very few occasions, mostly just shitposting being honest and I didn't enjoy the shit posting aspect that much if I am being honest as well)
For what its worth, the field does have something of an immune response to those sorts of people (software engineers only in it for the money). You often hear a lot of nonsense online about leetcode interviews or whatever, but most of my jobs have asked questions like "do you have a computer at home? what kind?" and "have you ever used linux?" or "tell me about some hobby projects you have done, its okay if it was a long time ago" and used the responses to try and figure out if you were interested in computers. Ive often had bosses talk about how its been much more successful for them to train someone interested or give them space to learn themselves rather than hire someone checked out who has only credentials. If anything, thats the entire risk that hiring is trying to avoid.
I get it a little less now, but perhaps thats because i'm starting to have a good amount of experience to talk about - and getting questions more like "talk about a project that you thought was going to fail. What happened? did you do anything? why?" to try the same thing but with management concepts. They want to see that you're interested.
Some of these were ten years ago, some in 2025.
Hah! I had a very similar thought enter mind recently. I used to get shamed for being on screens too much, now the situation seems to have flipped. Who's the nerd now??
Also just an aside - I love your writing style.
Let me tell you about real life. I’m a caregiver and leaving the home is simply not an option. Short trips to the store, a walk around the block, maybe, if it’s before sundown, provided the person I’m caring for is in the right mental state to be left alone for 45 minutes. If there were neighborhood pubs that might be a thing to do if I drank. Getting off social media is great for those lucky enough to have the option, but with an increasing number of people getting into their dementia years, many with no savings to afford respite or other forms of care, social media is going to be the only option for a lot of people like myself. It’s better than nothing.
First, sorry for what you're going through. Also, your situation is definitely an outlier that I can't focus my main efforts on. Maybe someone else is meant for that. But I'm curious, why not have friends over? Is anything like this possible?
Tip of the hat there, it’s a very selfless thing to commit to caregiving. From a 50kft view, we have an aging demographic globally, and the bet seems to be robotics- hopefully they will get good enough to help meaningfully in this capacity. What happens to an economic system predicated around having more kids (GDP growth) is another concern.
We already have the ability to take care of people now. All it needs is is for someone in power to give a fuck and set up a system and fund it. The suggestion that we do nothing for 30 years so we can leave our loved ones home with a robot care taker is kind of fucking angering.
The robotics thing to replace caregivers misses the point that elder people also want connection. Yeah, it might free caregivers but still we will have a loneliness epidemic. I think this is more related to the desire for progress which is the backbone of modern life (you see it politics, school, your family, etcetera). This, I believe, has been slowly replacing the social glue of societies like religion, public space, play, chatting, etcetera.
It's like China during the opium epidemic.
Maybe we'll see Europe try and ban social media, leading to a kind of "Opium War" to keep it going on the pretext of "freedom" and so on.
My friend, don't scare quote freedom.
Sure, it may not have infinite value, but there are plenty of far less valuable things we endure significant harm to be able to enjoy.
And I say this as someone who absolutely hates social media.
Usually countries don't go to war over actual principles such as these but for self-interest. That's what I was getting at. Scare quotes indicate the position of the concept within public-facing rhetoric for an Opium War style operation (which would presumably be about profit, control and so on, the usual).
> Now, everyone is an internet addict, and I was just ahead of the curve. No one hangs around and chats anymore.
A lot of the events and spaces I go to have people who hang around and chat.
I agree that internet use has had an impact, but I think it's easy to underestimate how much situations change as you grow up. Now that I have kids, it seems like we're always ending up in spaces where people are hanging out and chatting. As far as my kids know, that's just the way the world works.
I thought the same up through college, then I graduated and suddenly spontaneous socialization ended. I had to change my habits to go find other people.
>how much situations change as you grow up
And yet this looks very different from what 40+ years back looked like for adults so it's not just about growing up, there was other massive changes in our society.
For example the number of kids we had in the past dramatically affected 'forced' socialization.
The post war suburbanization that forced us to spend huge amounts of time on the road.
Things like TV that took entertainment from a group activity to a single person event.
All these things added up.
>Things like TV that took entertainment from a group activity to a single person event.
TV was the visual replacement of radios, and both used to bring families together for tv events… I remember lots of instances of that as a child.
It also brought people together at work. Everyone used to watch nearly the same things, and even up to 15 years ago, there’d at least be groups you could find in your office who was watching the same things you did, and could engage in water cooler talk.
Now theres so many shows on streaming networks, and you can watch whenever, so its all fractured.
Thankfully social media is getting so much worse so fast it's making this easier and easier. HN is the last social media platform I still participate in... and I suspect that might not be for too much longer.
I recently logged onto Facebook and Instagram to update my 2-factor auth settings after having too many notifications of malicious login attempts. It was incredible to see what a transformation has happened there, it's like going to a decaying suburban shopping mall with only a few stores left open (and sort of sad to see the remaining users so continually desperate for a drop of approval from some imagined community).
Reddit is mostly bots, astro-turfers and people so brainwashed it's hard to tell the difference. I remember disagreeing with people on there (this in the pre-Digg migration era) you would get interesting divergent points of view. Now it's like people are reading from a script.
Twitter used to be my strongest addiction, but it's almost unbelievable how big a transformation has occurred since it became X. It's almost a parody of everyone's dystopian social media fears.
HN has obviously held up a bit better, but the AI driven mass hallucination impacting this community, combined with the increasingly aggressive manipulation of the home page, is continually making logging out for good seem like the best option.
> Reddit is mostly bots, astro-turfers and people so brainwashed it's hard to tell the difference. I remember disagreeing with people on there (this in the pre-Digg migration era) you would get interesting divergent points of view. Now it's like people are reading from a script.
It's hard to classify Reddit as one thing, the communities are all so different.
The subreddit for my town has led to several new friends that I meet with in person. Most of that came from coming together to advocate for something at a city council meeting or similar, where there was a directed meat space purpose. Getting together for hobbies like hiking or other things happens once in a while too.
On other, technical subreddits dedicated to digging deep into details, there are few bots. It's all real people with shared interests. Reddit is far better than most forums that I frequent for finding those communities.
The few times I have been swarmed by bots on Reddit was when I touched on a topic where, say, Russia had a strategic interest, then the subreddit would get tons of new commentators from other subreddits, which was the indication of bots. Fortunately the mods took swift action when this happened, becuase my god the discourse is awful when bots flood the zone with their babble.
> The few times I have been swarmed by bots on Reddit was when I touched on a topic where, say, Russia had a strategic interest
The thing is, bot operators know they can’t just post on Russia-related topics - they need a smokescreen of other ‘normal human’ activity, to avoid getting detected and banned.
If the bots that swarmed you want to appear as only 5% pro-russian, for every response you got they had to make 19 other posts. Predictable advice in advice subs, lukewarm takes in entertainment subs, reposts in image subs, repetitive worn out jokes everywhere.
Totally agree. When people say "Reddit is mostly bots" I find they're really talking about political subs.
Niche/hobby subs are mostly bot-free.
Yes I feel the same way too. This exactly captures what I am feeling right now. I wish there was a way to upvote this twice, thank you so much for writing this!
The only place I am usually active is on Hackernews and on bluesky as wel
> HN has obviously held up a bit better, but the AI driven mass hallucination impacting this community, combined with the increasingly aggressive manipulation of the home page, is continually making logging out for good seem like the best option.
I am not kidding, this is so true. I don't know if I can get flagged again but oh well, The amount of manipulation happening in HN is insane and flagging and just about everything
People called me bots twice on Hackernews for no apparent reason which really hurt and then I created a post about it which got flagged again as well and the responses were.. well not so sympathetic
I feel like I would be better off being an robot than a human in hackernews at this point smh. You get called bots for simply existing and showing your viewpoint or having a viewpoint (different?) or just no apparent reason and I genuinely don't know.
Bluesky has some faults as well but It's (I must admit) more focused on politics. i like the weeds of things in coding. I found some coding spaces in bluesky but they are just not there yet. I ended up spending 2 hours or something trying to build an extension which can automatically create threads for large posts because (you can see) i love writing large posts and bluesky has 300 characters limit and that annoyed me
I don't know what to do as well. I am thinking of still using Hackernews and bluesky but to an degree of moderation. I have tried discord and that doesn't work as well.
Honestly I just don't know as well but right now I atleast feel that I am not alone in this. I am not feeling lonely about feeling like this so once again massive thank you man, these are the comments which lure me into entering hackernews. Not people accusing me of being bots for no apparent reason and this happened on both bluesky and hackernews where pople called me bot and I actually try to be respectful and uh in bluesky someone went on 10 thread comment saying silence AI or silence bot when I was trying to be reasonable for the most part until I trolled them back
And in all of this questioning myself what did I do wrong, did I have a stance and they wanted to deny it and said something, the HN instance just mentioned my name as the reason I am a clanker. All of these things genuinely made me feel like people just wont trust me in being part of this community if someone (even after being a year in) trying to respond nicely and following the rules mostly can call me clanker
Like I just don't know what to do with either bots or people who accuse (you) of being bots. Both just feel the worst in social media and are actively rotting both HN and many other communties to the point that I dont even know what are some good alternatives
I think the biggest negative impact of AI is the fact that we aren't able to trust each other online in my opinion or trust art and other issues as well.
Once again thank you man for writing this. Your comment gets what I am talking about as well and I didn't know how to summarize what I wanted to say!
People are seeking multiple things on social media. One common one is connection. I am in Mexico dealing with family business. I am in a rural area. My Spanish skills are developing but are still weak. I can have light conversation here, but I can't deeply connect. My desire to use social media has drastically increased.
But I only want to engage with my friends. Every platform feeds me various flavors of rage bait mixed in with my friends' content. Some of my friends groups have moved to chats on other less public platforms like Discord, Signal, or Whatsapp. But that's not the same experience. And a lot of the people I like to engage with aren't moving over to those platforms.
We all thought maybe social media would evolve into something good... but it was enshitified. So maybe part of the solution here is to develop a tool that offers that connection without the whole being exploited aspect?
I know the feeling but my impression is that interacting with people that are strictly internet friends is a proxy to the real thing, the same way watching porn is a proxy for the real thing. When you spend X hours talking to people on the Internet you're spending at least less X hours talking to people IRL and building the sense of community that we now feel thinning away.
I know people that are internet famous and are terminally online all the time. I'm pretty sure it must feel like they're accomplishing something but for somebody IRL not familiar with the game they're playing their life looks very weird socially.
My current mindset for this is that social media should only work augmenting my real world social life, not take what's left of it away from me.
> My current mindset for this is that social media should only work augmenting my real world social life, not take what's left of it away from me.
110%
I feel like the idea social media prevents socializing in real life is a bit of a straw man.
I've made many friends over the years through platforms like Instagram, some in countries I don't even live in, and we've met many times in person.
Of course that won't necessarily work for everyone but the point I'm trying to make is that social media isn't some one way street that won't return value.
There's social media, and then theres "social" media. Someone veged out to tiktok or instagram reels is not socialising. They are trapped in an endless state of scrolling slop.
We probably need some laws or regulation that strip out the random algorithm selected junk from feeds and return it to just posts from your friends and family.
Maybe it’s ironic that I’m saying this because right now I’m scrolling HN while waiting for my flight to board rather than trying to strike up conversations with people … but when I was riding the bus home a few days ago, I got fed up with the algorithmic feed (too many “you’re single because you don’t follow a dating coach that will tell you to gaslight people” ads in a row). I put my phone away and just decided to take in the scene around me.
Every other person was on their phone. Started wondering what these people did with their day, what new restaurants they discovered, what quirky thing they may have seen in the city. Conversations that might have been had if people weren’t afraid to strike up conversations with strangers. (something I definitely struggle with myself too)
Anyways, random thoughts as usual.
It's honestly very scary, and if people aren't on their phone, they have something masking the outside world and blasting noise into their ear.
> (unwalkable towns where all of the houses are big garages in the front and no porches)
You can turn the garage into a hangout spot. A neighbor has a full bar with communal table plus TV for sports and he opens up the garage door once a week on a schedule (Sunday game day or whatever depending on the season) and whenever he feels like it on work week evenings. As people pass by we invite them over and after a few months everyone knows that when the garage is open, they can come over for a drink and to shoot the shit. Low pressure social interactions that often turn into weekend outings, regular poker games, etc.
Now years later we get impromptu block parties when he brings out the grill onto the driveway. It’s done wonders for our community in an otherwise unwalkable SoCal suburb.
This works wonders. I did it accidentally. In March 2020 when my gym closed, I started working out every night in the garage. After a couple of weeks a neighbor who I only ever said "hi" to wondered by and asked if he could join since his gym was closed. After a while more showed up, and now I have like 12 people every day show up. One Friday someone brought a bottle of whiskey and we hung out after the workout and now weekly happy hours are a regular occurrence. The neighbors who don't workout stop by after the workout for happy hour. It's almost become expected and folks schedule their weeks around it so that they can be there for drinks in the evening. As a super introvert nerd, I never thought I'd be the center of community in my neighborhood.
This is something I absolutely would not feel comfortable doing unless I was warmly encouraged to join in, that's how I've been turned into a social outcast in my youth. I know some people who for a fact feel the same way.
Maybe one solution is therapy, to help massage them out of their shell, to help them learn to be vulnerable and unafraid and friendly. But many of them refuse to go to therapy for whatever reason also.
These are things I will be running into as I try to resolve this. I have already encountered a young man named Daniel who remembered me, and told me that he was hospitalized, and that the thought of me and my sign helped him get through it. I'm dealing with people on all spectrums of mental health.
In fact, maybe that's kind of the point. I'm trying to reach out to people who refuse to go to therapy, who have internal thoughts berating them all day long, and I have the unique opportunity of helping them through the darkness and into the light of the truth, that they are valuable and lovable, if only people saw the true them, and trusted them to become that.
I am affected by extreme conscientiousness and would be described as a social outcast in my current state I'm sure.
I've always had a decent social network through proximity alone (neighborhood, education, etc.) and in this comfort, built a harsh prejudice against outgoing behavior. I'm not even sure why I held this perspective so deeply for so long, but I reviled the thought of intruding on others and only warranted intrusion on those I judged willful intruders. Most of my relationships are sufficiently available, but not very deep given my refusal to assert vulnerably (including against others vulnerabilities).
I was lucky to find Dostoevsky, Camus, and Hesse notably, which helped break some of my absurd dispositions. However, my entire social network was still rotten on a basis of inauthentic connection and intellectualizing this can only go so far. You must live the perspective and it is hard and vulnerable.
Thank you for these words, I find your mission deeply humane and I strive to live through a similar spirit.
Yep. I grew up in the era of ‘stranger danger’. We were explicitly taught as kids to fear strangers and socialising. We were taught “don’t be rude and butt in to conversations uninvited”, etc.
Still, something else is off. In the 90s, the Internet was a way to expand your social circle. So many friends made on IRC groups that moved into real life.
Nowadays yeah, commenting on Reddit and chatting to friends in message groups does feel like socialising, even though you might go two weeks without seeing anyone other than coworkers, cashiers (maybe) and Uber Eats delivery drivers.
> This is something I absolutely would not feel comfortable doing
Part of it I think is to endure the uncomfortable for a bit.
I felt really uncomfortable in social settings, and still do sometimes. But I forced myself to ignore those feelings. Now I'm at a point that if people think I'm weird or whatever then that's their problem.
I try not to be rude, be considerate and such thing, I'm not totally unhinged. But I am much more relaxed about just being me. Sometimes it doesn't work, but often it's all good.
on my son's bday i drug our firepit out to the front yard and setup some chairs for my wife and I to welcome his friends as they arrived. Maybe a dozen people in our neighborhood walking their dog or out for a run just dropped by to say hello and talk. I guess the fire looked very inviting (it was a chilly evening). I'm going to start doing it regularly, it's an easy way to meet people in your community.
In some neighborhoods the neighbors would call the police about your illegal open fire. It's nice that your neighbors are cool with it.
This is totally badass. Makes me want to clean out my garage for just such a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
The common retort is that these don't exist any more, but in my experience they're all over. If you have kids you start seeing them everywhere, too. They're not as classically romantic as an ancient Greek agora, but there are plenty of spaces. During the summer I'm probably at a different space 5 days a week with the kids after school.
I think the real problem is that some people forget how to go places. It's so easy to do the routine of work -> dinner -> screen time -> sleep -> repeat that time vanishes from people.
Whenever I hear people, usually young and single, complain that their 8 hour job leaves 0 hours in the day to do anything and they're too tired on the weekends to go out, it's always this: Their time is disappearing into their screens, which makes it feel like their only waking hours go to work. I try to give gentle nudges to help give people ideas, but none of them really want to hear that it's something they can change. It's just so easy to believe that life has thrust this situation upon us and there's nothing we can do about it.
> The common retort is that these don't exist any more
Usually when I see the retort, its also with the understanding that 3rd places need to be free, or essentially free. If theres a significant expectation of money being spent in order to spend time there, its not really a “3rd place” by the intended definition. (Thats the argument I’ve seen)
Essentially free covers a LOT of places... Coffee shops, pubs, etc.
Though I do agree that the privatization of public spaces is a problem (in the US, not sure about globally). For example, the local "town center" is owned by a giant developer (BXP/Boston Properties) and bans photography. The layout is like a typical downtown business district - grid streets, mid-rise buildings with retail/commercial on ground level, office or apartments above, and a park on each end. And crawling with rent-a-cop losers who have nothing better to do than chase people who aren't actively shopping.
That has never really been part of the definition. If you look at that Wikipedia article a couple comments up, I only see two examples (i.e. stoops and parks) that are free, and I think parks are a stretch because conversation is not a primary reason for most people going there.
Also, people forgot how to find places. If you're driving a car, places speed by too fast to see or remember (and it's dangerous to spend too much time looking at them). On Google, places are actively hidden from you for the sake of making the map look "cleaner". Every time I go downtown (on transit, not by car) I notice new shit that just doesn't exist on the map unless you specifically type in the name to get Google to admit that it exists.
I noticed this the first time I took a walk by myself to the town center rather than letting my parents drive me there. You know the routine: drive to the mall parking lot, go and get the thing you're looking for, drive home. Well, I didn't have my own car and figured I could walk there (about an hour, so probably 2-3km, in a country that uses sidewalks). It's basically magical how much stuff you notice that you would just ignore when in the car, even as a passenger.
I wrote on my white board, "There goes today's hour." So if I'm walking by and I read it again, and I just spent some time on some mindless phone thing, I remember that I could find a better use of my free time tomorrow.
What happens when they try to go to that place, they go there, they are there alone and bored. There is no one to talk with. So they end up being on the phone and more depressed.
Yes.
Our lopsided emphasis on individualism, our definition of economic efficiency that does not include the mental health value, these have been detrimental to our connections, roots, community, family etc.
We said, let the mom and pop stores die, their replacements provide the same value but more efficiently. Let community bonds die they intrude upon our individual destiny.
But we did not correctly account for the value provided by those that we chose to replace. So it is not surprising that we find ourselves here.
Could it have played out any other way ? I doubt it. Our world is an underdamped system, so we will keep swinging towards the extremes, till we figure out how to get a critically damped system. The other serious problem is that the feedback system is so laggy, that's a biggy in feedback control loops.
The world has become a much bigger place. You used to know who to avoid, the default was someone was acceptable. Now the ones to avoid move around and it's all too likely that a newcomer is such a person.
> Now the ones to avoid move around and it's all too likely that a newcomer is such a person.
This seems a wild generalization to make, though I guess "be suspicious of newcomers" is a little biologically hardwired. What's your epistemology for believing "newcomers" are "the ones to avoid"?
The problem is the bad guys move around a lot more than the good guys.
That's not an explanation, that's a restatement of the claim.
I think it's still likely that most new people you'll encounter aren't malicious. I have to wonder what your mental image of a 'newcomer' looks like.
> Our lopsided emphasis on individualism
This reads like that pattern where people assign blame for all issues to whatever thing they happen to not like. The US is the least individualistic it has ever been, but there was much more community and less loneliness in the past. That make it pretty obvious that the issue here isn't "individualism".
I am not from the US but your observation, if correct, would offer a counterexample worth thinking about.
You are saying that in the past, more resources were spent supporting individuals than the resources spent supporting communities and yet communities were stronger. That sure would be an interesting thing to understand if true. My interest is certainly piqued, seems too good to be true though.
Exactly this. Vote for representatives that want to build walkable cities, support small businesses, and want to build parks. Suburban sprawl sucks.
No it doesn't. I live in a planned neighborhood in the suburbs. I can walk to a branch of my local library, a few restaurants, a bar, a bookstore, I even get my haircut in my neighborhood. And even if none of that existed, nothing has stopped me from being friends with my neighbors, or the parents of my kid's friends. The suburbs are a different model with tradeoffs, but they're also useful for periods and phases of life different from the ones served by urban settings.
A planned neighborhood is technically by definition not suburban sprawl, as sprawl requires a lack of planning. On the other hand, I'd argue if you can do all of that (and said walking distance is under a mile[0]) you're not even in a suburb, you're in a dense enough location to be a town or small city. Unfortunately thanks to American zoning and planning it can be very difficult to know what your home area is actually considered and it makes this type of anecdotal evidence not particularly useful[1].
[0] A mile is essentially the farthest the average person will comfortable walk versus driving a car for travel that does not require carrying anything back. Once you add in carrying things (e.g. groceries) it drops to half a mile. Anything less dense than that and people won't want to walk, anything more dense than that and you're into standard city planning.
[1] Assuming you're American of course and obviously I'm not about to ask you to dox yourself, considering this type of thing can vary right down to the neighbourhood level.
>I can walk to a branch of my local library, a few restaurants, a bar, a bookstore, I even get my haircut in my neighborhood.
If you can walk to these things, you don't live in the areas the parent comment is talking about. "Suburban sprawl" doesn't mean all suburbs, it's specifically the ones which don't have facilities and community.
Sounds like you like in a “streetcar suburb”, not urban sprawl. I’ve been in real urban sprawl and you can’t walk to anything. Not that you’d want to, since there are no sidewalks. Drop a Google Maps pin anywhere in Texas not in the direct center of a major city to see what it’s really like.
Urban environments blunt people's connection to other people too, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
If you pack people in too tight they just tune each other out.
That's my neighborhood you're "citing". It's a walking neighborhood--cars are useless with no parking next to stores. I talked to more strangers there than in any other place I've lived. My doctor would stop me on the street to look in my grocery bags.
I mean, the very first paragraph of your own link says: "However, subsequent investigations revealed that the extent of public apathy was exaggerated." and the second paragraph says, "Researchers have since uncovered major inaccuracies in the Times article, and police interviews revealed that some witnesses had attempted to contact authorities."
I live in probably the most walkable city in the world, but there are millions of lonely people here as well. From any of my observations, I can’t pinpoint to one single problem.
It might be a composite effect of different things contributing to the easiness of being alone. Cultural skill that overtime gets eroded, and as less time people spend among others, it becomes even harder to go back.
Voting isn't going to fix this problem in our lifetimes.
We need to do things ourselves.
This. I also like the idea of libraries having a cafe, internet access, a place to meet, all non profit and owned by the community. Community is a function of distance, broadly speaking.
I also like the idea of libraries having a cafe, internet access, a place to meet, all non profit and owned by the community.
There are lots of libraries with cafes, maker spaces, and more. Seattle is one.
If yours doesn't, this is your wake-up call to get involved with your local library. Stop waiting for someone else to do things.
Which Seattle library (am assuming you're referring to SPL/Seattle Public Library system) has a maker space?
There is no maker space listed at https://www.spl.org/programs-and-services/a-z-programs-and-s....
Within KCLS, there are two public libraries that have maker spaces (AFAIK): Bellevue, Federal Way.
PS this is not meant to be confrontational, would love it if there were more maker spaces in libraries (when have asked in the past, the usual answer is that they do not have enough space for it).
No, the Seattle reference was for the cafe, not a maker space.
I'm willing to bet that the libraries near the person you're talking to have all but maybe a cafe. I mean, I've never seen a library in the US that didn't have internet access and a place to meet and that weren't nonprofit.
Suburban sprawl is not going to be "fixed" in anyones lifetime. But it doesn't have to be limiting. I grew up in a very typical suburban style neighborhood in the 1970s. Tract homes, lots of cul-de-sac streets. But neighbors talked to one another, kids played together, there were summer gatherings in those cul-de-sacs on the 4th of July or Labor Day.
Don't think you have to live in some idealized fantasy land to go talk to your neighbors.
I live in a suburban neighborhood with a couple bag ends, our neighborhood is pretty social. couple of neighborhood bbqs a year, kids all playing together every day, dinners, etc. It is quiet and not a lot of traffic with long term residents. I am not 100% on what exactly the key is for a town is, I think style matters, but Ive been in walkable neighborhoods without a good community, and non-walkable neighborhoods with one.
I'll say that when I was a kid, the neighborhood was still as it was originally built, no sidewalks. Didn't stop anyone from socializing, didn't stop kids from biking around.
The city added sidewalks there in the '00s or so, but when I go back there I almost never see anyone using them.
I think the trend of isolation and loneliness is not really related to infrastructure or stuff like "walkability." Those things are pretty minor obstacles.
How big were the lots? How far of a walk was the closest bar, grocery store, cafe? Do you have to walk onto someone's property to talk to them if they are sitting on the porch?
I lived in a car dependent burb for 20+ years and would rarely, if ever, run into my neighbors out on the town. Living in a walkable neighborhood in a medium-low density city for under a year and I regularly run into my neighbors.
Standard 0.25 acre suburban lots. No markets, cafes, or anything like that it was a bog-standard subdivision. There was a small park sort of centrally located but that was really the only ammenity. Supermarket was a few miles away. Nobody walked there, cars to go anywhere. Neighbors still knew one another, at least on the same streets. Kids met at school, figured out where each other lived.
> bag ends
Never seen "cul de sac" in English before...
I knew cul de sac was french for bag end, or end of sack or whatever the translation was. One time reading lord of the rings after learning Tolkien explicitly avoided french loan words, I realized Bilbo living at Bag End is kind of a joke. Its just saying Bilbo lives in the cul de sac.
Never heard "bag end" myself.
> idealized fantasy land
For what it's worth, many (most?) countries have most of their people living in places that are not sprawling suburbs. It's worst in the "Anglosphere" countries (US/Canada/Australia) within the last 50-70 years, but it's absolutely not a fantasy land. It's the way things were everywhere before 1940, and most places still are today.
I say that because it is fixable, if we let ourselves fix it...
Your point stands though, even in a fairly antisocial layout of a suburb, you can still usually make friends with a decent number of people nearby.
Most countries pack a large chunk of their population like sardines instead. Not really any better.
This is answering the wrong question.
You're answering the question, "In a loneliness epidemic, what can I do to be less lonely?" Your answer is to use self discipline (which is hard) to get out of your house consistently, a decent answer to that question.
To actually fix the loneliness epidemic, you'd have to get everyone else to do that.
In the 20th century, getting out of the house consistently was the easiest way to interact with other people. Now, you can interact with lots of other people (in a less satisfying way) without leaving your house. What's going to fix that?
How do we get everyone to eat better? How do we get everyone to get enough sleep? How do we get everyone to exercise more? "Just tell them to do it" won't work. "Why don't we all just put our phones away?" won't work. We'd need a policy.
(My best guess: in the US, mandate that health insurers pay for therapy, and provide therapy at low/no cost in countries with national health care.)
I was with you up until you said policy was the solution. No, action must come first. Policy needs people to agree on it, and can take a long time to enact. Action can be done now, and allows experimentation and disagreement. I am looking for actionable solutions that I can experiment with as one lone individual with time to spare on Sundays.
If you're looking for individual advice, instead of "solving" the whole epidemic, then here's mine.
To solve loneliness for yourself, you've got to get out of the house more. But, deep down, you already knew that, right? Just like we all know we should exercise more, eat better, etc. Self discipline is hard.
So, my advice for that is to work with a therapist. A therapist can help you do the thing that you know you need to do but can't make yourself do.
People often think therapy is only for "serious" problems, but it's great for just helping you to stop sabotaging yourself (and we all sabotage ourselves, in big ways and small).
Therapists have regularly scheduled appointments, which also helps in its own right. (You'll get better workout results if you exercise weekly with a trainer.)
Scheduled recurring appointments make it easier to attend other social gatherings, too. The chess club means every Tuesday night. People will be watching Monday night football at the bar. Church is on Sunday. (Temple is on Saturday, Jumu'ah is on Friday, etc.)
But you knew all that, already, too. To do what you already knew you need to do, try therapy.
Sorry no, I think you misunderstood.
For the whole thread, it's open-ended. People can brainstorm whatever they want to based on the title. It's good that it's ambiguous. The more conversations, the better.
But for me, I'm looking for ways that I can help solve other people's loneliness, both on an individual basis, and eventually en masse, but still me doing something as one individual.
This is what all my replies have been about, and why I posted one top-level comment asking that very specific question. I want to know what individuals can do that's actionable to help other people.
Policy could make a huge difference.
Investing in free places where people can do cool things in public like libraries can help. Investing in public transportation so that more people can get around easier can help. Making sure that people have enough money that they don't need to work 2 jobs to get by and they aren't under constant worry of not being able to pay rent would help. Making sure people are able to get the healthcare they need so that they are feeling well enough to go out places would help.
It's hard to act when you're sick and exhausted and physically isolated and broke and there's nowhere in public filled with people worth visiting. Policy can help improve that situation so that action can happen.
> I am looking for actionable solutions that I can experiment with as one lone individual with time to spare on Sundays.
Since you've probably already got the time, energy, and money to invest this should be pretty easy.
The easiest answer? Go find a protest group. There are people out pretty much every week all over the place. You'll meet tons of very friendly people and you'll already have something to discuss with the strangers you meet. You can spend your weekends with new passionate people outdoors holding signs and marching around. Doesn't get more actionable than that. Comes with a low risk of getting shot or teargassed and a high risk of being profiled by the feds (although these days who isn't on a list right?)
Not political? Volunteer helping people. Soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and food banks are a great place to start. You'll be doing something good for others in your community and get a chance to meet and speak with other volunteers and the people you're helping. (Fair warning: repeated exposure to good people who are struggling may cause you to become more political)
Are you active? Join a sports team for a sport you enjoy or have always wanted to try. There are usually local groups looking for members and again you'll be starting with something to talk about and a shared interest.
Pay for classes in something you're interested in. Meet your teachers and classmates. Learn something cool in the process! Works best if you're learning something that requires you to create or do something.
Not in a relationship? Try dating. Be open about the fact that you're just looking to meet more interesting people. (this tip works infinitely better if you're a woman, but if you're comfortable with rejection, patient, and able to pay for multiple dating apps for indefinite periods of time where you don't get any takers it can work for almost anyone).
Pick a local bar and become a regular. Pay attention and if after a month or two you haven't clocked who the other regulars are pick a different bar and repeat. Once you've found some other regulars introduce yourself. As a bonus you'll both be socially lubricated when you meet and if it goes badly you can drown your sorrows in more drinks.
Like to drink but want to meet fewer alcoholics? Do the same thing but go to bars during karaoke and/or trivia nights.
Nerdy? Check gaming stores or the internet for a D&D group looking for members or even better look up where your local Society for Creative Anachronism meets and go there. You can meet people while you learn blacksmithing, or calligraphy, or archery.
Religious? Tour churches. This can be pretty fun even if you aren't religious. Most people will be very friendly and welcoming (results may vary depending on the church and your color/sexual orientation).
100%. Telling people they just need to work harder and do better feel like good advice but it isn't going to solve a population scale problem. Sure _you_ should do it because it's the only thing you can directly control, but also understand it isn't going to solve the problem an entire society is facing.
In the 20th century you left the house because otherwise you were bored.
I love being alone but I am not "lonely" and I am never bored.
When I go for a walk on a beautiful summer night in America, always alone, there is rarely anyone outside. They are in the house, mostly alone unless they have a partner/kids.
I think we have a loneliness epidemic because we have a culture that makes it fun to be alone. Some people don't like this level of being alone but many do. Those that do aren't really going to pitch in to help so I am not sure what the solution is. You can throw a party but I am not going to show up. I would rather be alone. This is enough interaction. There is also a culture of narcissism, hyper stimulation or both involved I imagine. I can't just close the browser window in person if the conversation seems boring or jump to something more interesting instantly. I would even say that being alone is more fun now than hanging out at someone's house in the 20th century. There is just so much more to do. The group was less bored together but it was still pretty boring then. That is why going to the bar was so popular. Not much else to do then besides get drunk and smoke cigarettes in groups to get rid of the boredom.
I do this. Even to the point where I go to church yet am openly agnostic. Takes the right church, I enjoy a good pastor and message even if I don’t technically believe it can be rooted in morality or philosophy and I can filter out the religious aspects. I could do without the singing but that’s my wife’s favorite part.
The thing is, church works for this because it’s an agreed upon and set time of the week. It’s also a broad group of people. Having friends of all ages is beneficial. I prefer it to a hobby group or our parent groups where we are all very similar in many aspects, although I do those too I just feel like their impact is less on building my own character.
It’s hard to lose what has been lost in the macro sense and then go from 0 to 1. A social movement like “screen free Saturday” or something would be ideal. Kids had to prearrange where to meet, where the teens will party (they don’t party anymore yall!), arrange logistics, and deal with being bored during some part of the day (underrated life skill, as a busy adult I love being bored, but hated it when young). I just recently explained to my kid how TV worked in the 80s. You couldn’t pick what to watch and there were very few times when cartoons were on. You either watched the news or MASH with the adults or found something else to do out of boredom.
> Attend every week.
In my experience, this is the key. “90% of life is showing up.” If you are around the same people every week, for whatever reason, with even a minimal amount of openness and friendliness, you will get community.
Exactly. It can take a month or more but the secret for me is to “become a regular” at places I like.
I'm open and friendly to everyone I meet but get treated like a weirdo and ostracized (I am also a weirdo).
You don't only have to be "open and friendly", you have to say the correct things in the correct way in the correct order in order for people to accept you.
That doesn't work for everyone and everywhere.
But it works for most in most places
> People need to purposefully and intentionally do things. Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. There is no fear or rejection, there is no work to get out of the house, there is no risk. But there is also no reward.
This is the wrong model:
Sitting (alone) at home and working on program code or reading scientific textbooks does have a reward. Many things for which you go outside of the house or where you interact with other people have a much lower reward. So you rather loose a rather decent local optimum, and if you don't know very well where to look outside for something really good, you get much worse results than if you simply stayed at home and do there what you love.
I think by "reward" in the context of this discussion on loneliness, OP may have meant the opportunity to meet people, make friends, perhaps hit it off with someone and land a date, if you're single. Not that it's entirely useless/detrimental to spend time at home reading or pursuing whatever solo hobbies you happen to have.
To be sure, there certainly are many introverts who are perfectly happy on their own with no need to get out and meet people. More power to them! But there are many that crave human connection, even if they happen to have many intellectual interests and for these types of individuals, they would be well served at least carving out some portion of their time to get out of the house with the explicit aim of meeting people. And yes, not every such outing will lead to lifelong friends or meeting your next soulmate, but it's a numbers game.
"Opportunity" is not reward. Actually making friends is reward. And that actually making friends requires a lot more then just "go outside somewhere we cant tell you where". If you just go to a cafe or club, you will sit alone in cafe or club. And if you walk to someone randomly, they wont appreciate it because it is weird.
> you get much worse results than if you simply stayed at home and do there what you love.
That's a sense of risk and caution that gets too comfortable for some people to compete with over time. If you don't build yourself better options, all you want to do is sit at home and do the thing that guarantees a reward. Then you get in your car and move about the world in a way that you feel is guaranteed to protect you from conditions, other people, but really is dangerous. You bet only on certainty, and outcomes are predictable, but they're not compatible with not being lonely
We are optimising for reducing loneliness, remember.
I am of course aware of that.
But reducing loneliness is just a means to an end. My point is that there exist a lot of rewarding things that you can do alone at home, which may give you a hapiness malus because of the loneliness, but also a happiness bonus because you like the activity.
If a solution to reducing loneliness shall be sustainable, it better increases the happiness or rewardingness overall, too. Otherwise you see loneliness as a problem, but see the alternatives as being the worse options, i.e. by rational choice, the loneliness will not be reduced.
You can be happy, well maybe content, but still lonely. It sounds like you're just trying to optimise your happiness, which is fine for you.
My son is comparing every alternative to what he can accomplish by staying home and practicing guitar. However, we are trying to start an anime theme song cover band (e.g. "Upstate NY's most energetic opening act") for which he's going to play Bass, Rhythm or Lead as needed and I'm going to be the Kitsune/Band Manager/Mascot.
I have been meaning to (get LLM) to read this and others of his
https://www.amazon.com/Yourself-First-Chinese-Nishimura-Hiro...
apparently a lie-flat manual for Chinese and Japanese Gen-Z
Founder of 2chan who reverse took over 4chan in a pattern which should be familiar to you :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroyuki_Nishimura
I've heard it said that Swedish and Japanese cultures are more aligned than is usually appreciated
https://archive.ph/2020.05.30-154951/https://hbr.org/2013/09...
Especially this
>Balance explicit and implicit communication. Too much explicitness can lead to mistrust; too much implicitness can result in misunderstanding.
It's also possible to write code or read scientific textbooks for the goal of promoting social connection.
What a stupid take, but it showcases the underlying problem: there is no loneliness issue, there is a "me me me" issue.
Friendship is a two way contract: you add something to someone's life and they will consider you their friend, they add something to your life, making them your friend.
If you "optimize" for your own and only your own benefit, nobody is going to be your friend.
This is good advice for your friends and family, but a bad answer to the question. "How can we solve the obesity epidemic? Stop eating so much and get some exercise." Well sure, but this misses the big picture. We built a social infrastructure that encourages a sedentary, solitary life. We shouldn't be confused by physical and emotional health implications. We can expect some people to be proactive about it, but we can't expect that of everyone.
I guess we need to delete the internet and tv from existence.
I think that the more people getting out and putting effort in the better, it helps create a knock on effect.
> I guess we need to delete the internet and tv from existence.
If only. My preferred solution is a 4 year national service. College is a key place to form a friend network, but not everyone gets to go.
National Service means largely:
* Giving people guns and teaching them to kill
* Teaching people to blindly follow orders barked at them by an authority figure
* Enormous potential for mental health problems, including bullying, abuse and suicide
* Wasting 4 productive years of someones life
I'm pretty certain national service is a Bad Idea™
Yeah there's countries who have faced actual existential threat (South Korea, Finland, Israel, etc) and national service is still extremely unpopular.
Maybe it's a bad idea, but it is an idea. "People should get out more" is _not even wrong_
> We built a social infrastructure that encourages a sedentary, solitary life.
No. Pro-exercise propaganda has been extremely strong for longer than you've been alive. Large parts of the economy is focused on exercise and health, and it is accessible to everyone.
But it sure feels better to think that every problem is "society's fault". That's the easiest and cheapest cop-out. Just takes a few seconds to type on the keyboard, instead of doing something.
I’m not sure what you’re advocating for. Is “pro-exercise propaganda” hinting that you’re against exercise? I think it’s cheap and easy to dismiss large scale social problems as the individual’s responsibility. We badgered people to exercise and change their diets while the obesity problem got worse and worse. The first time we saw an improvement was with the introduction of GLP-1s.
If your goal is to feel self righteous, keep believing the problem can be solved if people just get stop being lazy and join a club already. That’ll work for some people, but what I’m saying is it’s not a solution to the problem.
I'm very pro-exercise myself, and there is no denying that exercise, athleticism, sports are celebrated everywhere and anywhere you turn, and has been so for decades. And it's not only the propaganda, everywhere there are gyms, yoga studios, sports halls and fields for a great variety of sports, running tracks, bicycle tracks, promenades.
Athletic clubs and sports clubs are a core ingrained feature of both rich and poor societies, and for all ages and abilities. Whether that is just playing a sport for fun once a week as a social activity, or serious endeavors for top talents aiming for Olympic gold or a pro career.
Any kind of sporting equipment you want or need are available for purchase, whether it's an expensive sport or cheap sport.
Athletes are celebrated and greatly admired, and top athletes can reach superstar celebrity status. As well as a big pay-check.
So I completely disagree that the "social infrastructure" encourages a sedentary and solitary life. The "social infrastructure" is very pro-exercise, pro-sports and pro-health.
> If your goal is to feel self righteous, keep believing the problem can be solved if people just get stop being lazy and join a club already.
As Prince sings: "Do what you want, nobody cares". Finding a physical activity that you enjoy is greatly beneficial for you. Whether it's a social sport, or exercises you do alone. You do it for yourself, not for anybody else. And everybody can find something which they like.
Righteousness has nothing to do with health or exercise.
We're not disagreeing that exercise is good. I also happen to be very pro-exercise. What I'm trying to do here is reckon with the fact that, as you say "exercise, athleticism, sports are celebrated everywhere and anywhere you turn", and yet the obesity epidemic only got worse. And providing the same kinds of answers for the loneliness epidemic will show similar results. It's possible that this disagreement is rooted in differing understandings of what "social infrastructure" means.
Sure, but what about the people who don't do this? Those who sit at home all day, scrolling away, drinking themselves to death, wondering why life is so lonely.
The only time you ever see such people is when they're walking to the grocery store. How do you reach out to them to let them know about these ideas or encourage them to try it? Especially when they're filled with discouraging thoughts?
What if all they need is one single person to say hi? How can I find them, reach them? This is what I'm asking.
I've reviewed this and your other comments on the thread, and I think you're making a mistake, believing that to solve the loneliness epidemic, you primarily need to "reach people."
As long as leaving the house and making real contact is harder (requires more self discipline) than staying in and scrolling, all you can do is project a message to folks at home, like "hi, you're not alone in feeling lonely," but you haven't solved the fundamental problem: it's harder to do the right thing than it is to do the wrong thing.
To solve the loneliness epidemic, you have to make the right thing easier than the wrong thing. "Reaching out" to more people will not accomplish that. Elsewhere in this thread, you've rejected the idea of pursuing a public policy, but policy is the only answer anyone's provided in this thread that could make that happen.
(Now, it turns out that you'll have to do a lot of outreach to make a public policy happen, but you'll be asking for their vote, not a regular commitment to show up weekly at a club; outreach is the right approach to that problem.)
We need the Tiktoks of the world to realize their responsibility: users get addicted to the apps in order to numb their feelings of loneliness. So we'd need an intervention within these apps that makes them unbearable for the lonely, combined with a healthier way to engage with loneliness.
Imagine TikTok asking you "you've scrolled for 30 minutes. You might be in a loneliness spiral. Write down the name of someone you would like to be closer to."
TikTok does in fact remind you, quite often, that you've been scrolling for a while, and suggests taking a break. Last year, for most of each day, I would just ignore this and keep scrolling. I'd see it so many times each day. That wouldn't change if they added a suggestion like writing a name down. I'd still ignore it, and I think most people in the same situation would too. But when I was at the store, or walking to the store, that's when someone could have found a way in, and been able to get me to make a connection and open up.
Sure, in the same way gambling companies tell you to "Gamble responsibly" at the end of their advert to get you to gamble more.
Imo short form video with infinite scrolling is straight up poison and it's impossible to resolve without just completely destroying it.
Or hear me out, puts you in video call with someone watching the same short as you. Involuntary friend
Omegle + TikTok sounds like a very bad idea.
If you're willing to put in the legwork, set up a event on your events platform of choice, take out an ad targeted locally and emphasize that it's free, and someone like me would sign up. I occasionally get ads for things happening locally but it's usually has some prepay component and feels like they are "dropshipping" an event. There are also [city] events pages on IG/fb
> What if all they need is one single person to say hi?
Then say 'hi'. By definition they're not going to seek you out nor are they going to be findable so you're only option is to say hi to everyone and hope one sticks.
edit: heh i hope you're not talking about me, i walk to the grocery store regularly by myself. It's how a take a break from work and get some exercise. i'm fine :)
That's my point. How can I tell the difference?
One of my ideas was legitimately to just hold a giant sign that just says "hi"
I had this idea a few months ago, but never wanted to waste a whole Sunday on it. Maybe I should.
To me that seems like not saying hi, rather a device to shift the risk of engaging off of you. Don't be scared. Just say a few banal words to people you don't know every day and gauge their reaction, start a conversation if you like and they seem to be up for it.
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You just have to become the most friendly ultimate host in the world. Start up random conversations with those people at the grocery store or on the street and invite them to your bbq you are having this weekend.
But ultimately, if a man is sitting in his kitchen and its on fire. Its up to him to run out. No amount of reaching out will help until he decides to make the change.
this is one reason, while i personally work from home, i actually lament that many 20-somethings will never be in an office
i'm nearing 40, have a wife and kid, house in the mountains, etc... but, damn, those office days were foundational to the person I am today
While this is true, it's worth mentioning that a regular coffee machine small talk in the office is not building any relationships. At least that's how I experience it. It can start one, but won't automatically make one.
I can go for a coffee and routinely get dragged into 30 min conversation about politics, or cars, or weather, or any other subject I literally don't care about. All the good relationships begin with finding a niche topic between 2 people.
YMMV I guess. I've got tons of friends I've made walking around the office and just dropping in and asking people what they're working on and introducing myself, or sitting at a table with people I didn't. Some are no more than acquaintances, but some are close friends now.
Do you put any effort in steering the discussion towards something you care about?
A discussion that started about the newest model of some car, ended up with that person fixing my boat's outboard motor.
It doesn't have to be an office - young people just need to get out and engage with the world in whatever way works for them. I tell this to my teenagers all the time. They are used to our nice house in the woods, 10 minutes outside of town, where their old parents work remotely and relax at home. But I remind them that this is a good place for our old age, not their youth. I spent my 20s exploring the world, climbing mountains, meeting new people, making mistakes, learning, and growing. They would be happier if they likewise got out and explored... hopefully with fewer mistakes.
But there is far more to the world than offices, so while I agree 100% with the sentiment, I'd broaden those horizons.
Oh absolutely... I just look at the office as a "forced" version of what you said. Totally agree it's way more than just the office
For sure. I would have been in real trouble if covid had happened when I was 20. The few times I tried to work remotely it took a matter of just a few days to go stir crazy. The office was a good environment for me (it helped that it was legitimately a good environment with good coworkers, not everyone has that).
As a family man with a wife, two kids, two cats, and a dog ... working from home is no big deal for me now. I prefer it. I got lucky that we did not get forced into this until I was in a position to handle it well.
Ha, I could have written this comment word for word myself.
Sometimes when I think back to the good times at the office, I wonder if I miss being in the office, or if I just miss being young and full of energy.
Either way, I agree it's a shame for any young people today that won't get that experience. They were among my fondest times.
I agree with this take. I'm definitely not friends with everyone I've worked with in person, but some of the most meaningful post-college friendships were formed by socializing with the people in the office (or people I met through socializing with office friends).
Yep, I met my wife at an office party - she didn't work for the company, just stopped by with someone who did
And not just the office friends that come from it -- I spent an hour a day on the bus, grabbed lunch around town, was downtown when work wrapped up and ended up at a nearby bar/restaurant, went to shows because I was downtown, etc.
Just being forced out of the house led to SO MUCH MORE.
Now I work from home and while we do travel a lot, we barely ever leave the house when we're home. We didn't make a single new friend for like 5 years (and we are a VERY social couple, generally the center of most of our friend groups). We've only just now started making new friends again now that our daughter is a toddler and getting us out of the house -- and it is incredibly refreshing
Seems like someone else (your employer, or your daughter) is controlling your willingness to socialize. It doesn't have to be this way.
It's not just willingness, as the OP mentions, being forced out of the house lots of things happen, some of them social. Having everything in the house, from work to shopping to entertainment is a convenience that could even save you some money, but it has a cost down the line.
Yeah I'm very willing to socialize and actually do far more than pretty much anyone I know, even those without kids (but maybe not as much as a 25 year old just getting started in the world and living in SF like I once was). I'm lucky in that regard I guess.
I'm not friends with anyone but still it's better to spend some of the day around people versus all of the day alone.
This as well. You need to learn to talk to people, socialize, handle adversity, etc. Sitting at home and your only real connection to the outside world being an echo chamber like facebook or whatever cannot be good for us
Absolutely, I agree. Some of the people I had the sharpest debates with and didn't always agree with had way more impact on who I am today than the softer acquaintances. Most of them definitely made me a better person in the end, even if we weren't really "friends".
And yeah, even just having the basic daily connections can be a dopamine hit.
This movie
https://joinordiefilm.com/
based on the work of Robert Putnam is an essential backgrounder on the topic.
Yet, if you're concerned about Gen Z, 2-4 are aspirational at best. Churches, clubs, live music events, and every other group my son attends have a lot of people who are 35+ and children that tag along but the 18-30 demo is almost absolutely absent at events away from the local colleges and universities. [1] It's quite depressing for someone his age who is looking to connect with his cohort in person.
Leaders of groups are somewhere between outright hostile, completely indifferent, or well-meaning but unable to do anything about the "cold start" problem.
I'm sympathetic to the argument of Ancient Wisdom Tradition (AWT) practitioners that secularism is to blame, but my consistent advice to anyone is you can control what you can control and that secularism would not have encroached as much as it has if AWT organizations weren't asleep at the switch if not doing the devil's work for him.
Personally in the last year I've found a lot of meaning being an event photographer for this group
https://fingerlakesrunners.org/
where I know you can find some people in the 18-30 hole because I read their age off their bibs.
My son is doing all the ordinary things and I am supporting him in all the ordinary ways but I do believe extraordinary times require extraordinary methods.
I can't advise that anyone follow my path but I felt a calling to shamanism two years ago which recently became real, I "go out" as
https://mastodon.social/@UP8/115901190470904729
who is a "kidult" and who embodies [2] the wisdom, calm and presence of a 1000-year old fox who's earned his nine tails. In one of the worlds I inhabit I'd call this a "platform" for gathering information and making interventions as it builds rapport and bypasses barriers and the social isolation of Gen Z is my top priority for activism in my circle of influence.
[1] ... and our data there seems to indicates that Asian students seem to be OK and white kids, if they do anything at all, drink.
[2] ... at least aspires to
While I have no doubt that this is a liberating practice for you, for anyone else reading, you can also actually become a real shaman in pretty much any shamanic tradition, and I know many people who who have done that.
This is, in fact, an excellent way to fill your life with meaning and connection if it's something you're called to.
I agree. This was my path which came out of about 20 years of research and experience. It is usual to get an initiation from others, be part of a lineage, etc. My route was the hard way, I spent my time in the wilderness and paid my dues in my own way.
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A somewhat cynical response given the frequency of this topic/question being posted here and on other social media platforms. Add a weak "/s but not really" if you want:
People sitting at home living on apps and watching TV who decide to go to a new group social event to change things up will struggle to make a connection with someone else who was at home on an app and watching TV deciding to get out and meet someone else.
The people who have friends.. already have friends. Those who don't are numerous social cycle iterations in on that.
And how long before those people just end up talking about TV shows anyway?
> who decide to go to a new group social event to change things up will struggle to make a connection with someone else
I can't imagine going to a general "group social event" like a party and making a connection. I'd end up just sitting there being bored until I left. I don't have the personality to just strike up a conversation about nothing with some one I don't know. But I do somewhat often go to events that revolve around my hobbies. There, I already have a connection with the strangers, through the hobby, and I have something to talk about or listen to. I've met plenty of new friends that way.
Nonsense. It's fine to be boring, and to have boring friends. This expectation that you need to be travel influencer or a deep philosopher in order to have anything to talk about is an artifact of social media.
I'm old enough to remember what socialization was like pre-Internet. And by curated social media standards, it was really boring. It was also great.
My post wasn't about socializing, it was in the context of the "loneliness epidemic" as a social topic construct.
I mean, if you've already convinced yourself that you'll have a bad time and no one will like you...that's what they call a self-fulfilling prophesy.
It's fine to feel intimidated or shy, but then find something else that does feel manageable. It's something you can get better with by practicing. And I say that as an introvert who went semi-feral after Covid lol.
Join a religious organization to fight loneliness is like start smoking to loose weight.
Yeah I thought that was weird, along with joining ethnic organizations. I don't really need to explain the religion thing, but ethnic organizations are weird since you are forming an identity based on your unchoosable parent's DNA. I've seen both used by leaders to weaponize their members at their members detriment.
Although, if you are doing politics, I can see this being pragmatically useful.
So in my city there used to be some clubs, like the Ukrainian Lounge, the Polish Club, etc. which was a club where people paid dues and the only real requirement was to be part polish, ukrainian etc. It was basically just a bar to hang out at. The reason I put it there is that those guys seemed to get lifelong companionship and socialization out of it. Instead of shaming people for what may drive them, I am throwing out options I have observed.
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Telling people to bond over traits they can't choose seems like an excellent way to isolate people with rare traits they can't choose.
I have more in common with a factory worker in China than I do with the president of my own country, even if we happen to share the same skin tone. I am defined by my experiences, after all, not things like genetics, culture or history.
it also doesn't even fight loneliness. Loneliness isn't solved by merely not being physically alone. I grew up in a Catholic environment but because I bought exactly none of it the religious environments were exactly where I felt most isolated.
You're not solving loneliness by joining a cult or a gang. You can only deal with it by making authentic connections to people you actually want to be with. Countless of people are lonely and miserable within families.
I agree, unless faith actually means something to you, forcing yourself to go to church won’t help. Sitting through Mass miserable, disbelieving, and avoiding everyone defeats the whole purpose.
Churches get brought up a lot because they regularly gather people (weekly or even daily) and offer events, volunteer opportunities, and so on.
The point is to find an activity you like, with a specific group of people and consistently attend.
P.S As a fellow Catholic, I’m really sorry you went through such an isolating experience. I hope things feel much better for you now
I think what makes this good advice especially difficult is that it cannot be one-sided. When everyone is letting doom-scrolling replace their social interaction, then one person won't easily solve their own problem by going out to socialize. We need a broader solution, probably a cultural shift away from using technology as a crutch to avoid other people. Maybe the current younger generations will evolve a balance.
Yes, for years now I’ve had this creeping feeling that it’s a social version of the prisoners dilemma: if you’re the only one that puts down the phone (or gets off social media, etc) then you’re just left behind. It’s a coordination problem.
I think that there are a lot of people that are kind of waiting for other people to pitch something to do. Maybe you want to call them type A and B, leader and follower, I think of it as the Host and Attendees. The more of the Hosts the more things that will be happening, so trying to become a Host is just creates more opportunities.
Agreed. I'm not sure how it happened, but it feels like we've experienced a societal shift where a large number of people now expect and wait for other people to create nicely packaged solutions to their (real or imagined) problems. From social apps to medicine to play dates to curated vacations, too many people are unwilling to face "the great unknown" that is just going out and seeing what happens, warts and all. Somehow the ability of boomers to make conversation with strangers has become a meme instead of a norm - they're good at it because they practice it.
> 2. Join a religious organization. Go to church, but also join the mens/womens group, join a bible studies class. Attend every week.
So no atheists then?
The great thing about the comment you're replying to is that it has a list of suggestions. So you've got two options: you can get angry that one of them doesn't cater to you, or you could skip that one and look at the others that do.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t angry.
Surprised to see this comment strike a nerve with the HN crowd. That was my first thought as well. Religious organizations? No thanks.
If you agree with the entire comment, except just that line, do you upvote or not? I think maybe that's why :) If that line was the only thing in the comment, the reaction would probably have been different.
Well that’s part of the problem. secularism didn’t make an alternative.
I'd say particularly if you're an atheist. I've always been atheist, but fascinated by churches and religions regardless, because no matter what you believe, it's hard to refuse the proof that the ideas themselves are powerful and helps people a lot of the times. Why is that? Best way to find out is to talk and engage with those who have these different ideas, probably where they are the most comfortable.
Doesn't mean you need to forget all the horrible impact it has had too, and how much better humanity would probably be without it, or even continue thinking about ideas how we could finally get rid of it once and for all, without violence.
Also, probably different in different parts of the world, but in many places churches are just purely architecturally/visually beautiful and historically interesting buildings. Some of them have really interesting acoustics too, and organs. Many interesting stuff at churches :)
Start an atheist club.
Or join some community.
It's not even just an atheist issue. You have to have spiritual beliefs that value the specific repetitive church rituals so as not to be bored out of your mind.
Join a hackerspace I suppose. Technology is a religion anyway.
I always said science is kind of like a religion in a way. Wonder if that's closer or further from some truth than "technology". Interesting perspective nonetheless.
I want to do this "grow at least 2 roots into your community" idea but a huge challenge for me is simply that I'm 2nd shift. That naturally leads to a lot more isolation than 1st shift. (3rd shifties, my heart goes out to you. I've done that job. Not a fun time personally.)
I always tell people to find a meetup group and then you will run into people with similar interests. I’ve made some good friends that way.
Sounds like a lot of work.
Isn't there an app where I can just order a temporary friend for a few hours.
Uber Friend.
> Isn't there an app where I can just order a temporary friend for a few hours
there's two. Only Fans and making an appointment with a therapist (basically a professional listener/friend educated in helping you help yourself).
It was just a couple of months ago where I found myself complaining that we shouldn't have to pay exorbitant amounts of money for friendship.
Last time I went to a bar a pretty woman and her friends decided to sit next to me only after I closed my tab and was getting an Uber to go back home. She seemed super nervous just sitting next to me and I assumed that if I butted into their conversation I'd get ignored like last time.
I'm working on a decentralized open source Meetup alternative where people can find social events and meet new friends. https://codeberg.org/createthirdplaces
> 1. People need to make a point to talk to their neighbors
There are people who find this satisfying. However, you don't typically choose your neighbors. Don't be afraid to eschew spending time on this in favor of groups you deliberately choose based on common interests.
You might not choose your neighbors but, like your family, they're a part of your life anyway. You can choose to build bonds with them (rely on them to water plants, pick up packages, borrow spices) or create your own little world.
You can also find these things elsewhere—I know someone whose dry cleaner cat sits for her—but your relationship with your neighbors can still really affect your life.
The world could use a lot more of learning to like, or even love, the people you didn't choose.
That's how it was forever. Now it's not, and we're talking about a loneliness epidemic. I don't think those things are unrelated.
The people who enjoy doing that should absolutely feel free to do so. My comment was addressed at people who don't, to remind people that it's okay to not, and to choose to spend your time in other ways instead.
You missed the point of my comment.
My comment was saying that the people who _don't_ should learn how to do so. It's a skill like any others, and what you're proposing contributes to people being lonely. Instead of making connections with people around them, who they didn't choose, they hold out for some platonic ideal of a friend who they have the right amount of things in common with.
You see it in this comment section where you've got people shooting down every idea that people put out there. Oh, I can't go to the gym, I don't like working out. Oh, I don't want to join clubs because they don't have my interests. But I also don't want to be lonely, so I guess I'm just stuck.
No, I understood the point perfectly, I just think it's completely wrong.
It's always possible to find people. If someone is shooting down every idea for doing so, they may have issues with motivation, or being defeatist, or any number of things. Those need solving.
That doesn't mean finding perfection. It does mean actively doing something to find people you enjoy spending time with.
Life gets immensely happier when you spend time primarily with people you find fulfilling. You can absolutely make a conversation work with anyone, it's absolutely a skill, and it can be useful. But you will in your life have a certain amount of time and energy to interact with people. Spend it well.
1. fair 2. did this but they are all 80+ 3. ok 4. not that good at anything, too old for most groups. gym no one talks with anyone. bjj was the best for this, since its more older and mostly men 5. remote work ruined my mental health
As far as 2 goes: As far as churches go. The type of church matters a lot. If you go to a Universalist Unitarian, or progressive Lutheran Church, yeah itll probably be 80+. Evangelical/Baptist, Latter Day Saints, Orthodox, Catholic (more traditional parishes) all are significantly younger. The more conservative the denomination the younger the congregation. The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture. This also tracks to Judaism, with Reformed Synagogues being much older than Orthodox. I am not sure and haven't seen numbers of Islam, Buddhism, etc. i the US.
For 4: You don't really have to be good for like a rec league kickball, or beer league golf. Gyms are better if youre doing classes though I think, like BJJ or wrestling.
> The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture... The more liberal, the older they are. With conservative/liberal being adherence to scripture.
And yet many young Evangelicals have deconstructed and dropped out of those conservative congregations over the last 20 years or so. They couldn't bridge the cognitive gap between the conservative political stance of their church and what they read in the bible.
Remote work has allowed me to build the structure I need to function and perform at a high level. I have severe ADHD and do not fit well into conventional office environments, not because I lack capability, but because my work is most effective when done on my own terms and schedule. I've worked remotely on and off for most of my life (I grew up on a farm, so "working from home" was already quite natural to me.)
This is also colored a little by the fact that remote work is no longer really just an optional for me. Due to a spinal cord injury, I need flexibility to manage just ongoing existence, rehabilitation, and frequent medical appointments. An in-office role simply isn’t compatible with those realities, though the most recent surgeries do make it more viable than it was even twelve months ago.
I’m fortunate to work for a remote organisation that recognises this arrangement as mutually beneficial: I’m able to do my best work, and they get the full value of my expertise.
With all of that being said, I know people whom are far more aligned with you. Remote work is not particuarly beneficial for them, they indeed need an externally inforced structure and so would be best (and happiest) in office. I would never tell them otherwise and nor would they do the same to me.
I am thankful for the most part that many (though not all) of us somewhat have the ability to work in the way in which is best for us (and those employing us.)
> "Oh yeah, I have a bunch of friends at the gym."
Their definition of "a friend" can wildly vary from yours. Especially if such relationship is cultivated only at the gym. I'd hardly call it "friendship".
on the other hand, having people you see regularly and exchange pleasantries with can change gymming from a lonely to a sociable experience.
> gym no one talks with anyone
The thing about the gym is you need to be consistent at the same days/time for a while. Eventually proximity will lead to some interactions. Instead of having full blown conversations at the gym though, I've also found it really works when I see a person from the gym somewhere else. Obviously in a place like NYC this is less like than a smaller town/city.
> Sitting home on an app, watching TV is easy. ...there is also no reward.
Like hell there isn't. Speak for yourself.
I think part of the problem is the stuff you’re suggesting. I think everyday life needs to happen organically and if everything is scheduled and regimented and needs to be planned for, it’s very hard for the vast majority of people to actually accomplish. In the past the way, this worked was you went to church which was societally and peer enforced. People need to have marriages that last a lifetime. It’s my opinion that marriages that are a partnership without any sort of hierarchy like we had in the past are essentially doomed to fail except in a small percentage of cases. You need to have kids with stable homes that can go out on the street and be outside all day without fear of crime. Extended families need to live close to each other so there are a lot of folks raising kids and approaching life’s every day problems together. You need to shut off indoor sources of entertainment like social media and video gaming. You need to have a solid education system that is factual and science based, and only lets kids get through on the basis of meritocracy so they can be good informed citizens, and not vote for populist nonsense like we currently have. In a nutshell, what I’m trying to say is people cannot act on what’s best for them but society can put enough peer pressure on everyone for everyone’s good. This might be very hard to listen to in an individualistic society like ours and I don’t even know if I would want to live in this society, but I believe that if that’s the only option, everyone is better off.
I see this as quite a problem in the US. The default place a lonely person has to go is usually a church - where you can expect a modicum, possibly even a seeming profusion, of welcome. This is their hook. They provide automatic acceptance - of sorts. This is also how the right wing fascist regime convinced people to let Trump take over the country - propaganda through the churches.
The only other options people hear about are 'join a club.' Interesting clubs aren't that easy to find. Hanging out at the local pub has obvious downsides, though I guess it sorta works in some countries.
We need more ways for people to casually meet others that aren't trying to manipulate you or program you with religious doctrine...
> where you can expect a modicum, possibly even a seeming profusion, of welcome. This is their hook.
Do you think that, possibly, they're really just happy to see you?
It's called "Love Bombing" and it's almost always a precursor to abuse and/or exploitation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing
Love Bombing can be a real thing. Being kind and welcoming to others is not it.
We don't need to pathologize completely normal, and healthy, behaviours.
Sure, the way cult members are happy to greet new recruits. It's very insincere. If you have a real issue and you want to talk to someone - you are very likely to hear something like: "Well, pray to Jesus dear, only he can help you." In other words, if you actually need any support - go home and pray about it - don't expect real connection with people. The only connection comes through the imaginary friends they encourage you to divert all your attention and problems to...
Also, you have to accept the brainworms to be accepted into the church community. You gotta join the Borg. You can't have a different opinion or be an atheist. Or you have to hide it well and be comfortable with doing that.
It's a cult - a very old one, 20 centuries old. This longevity gives it a feeling of validity or that it's the 'only truth'. But it's really just collective sunk cost fallacy. It's the cultural bandaid that we apply to all problems because no one dares think up a new one. Rip off that bandaid and all kinds of problems it was patching emerge. That's why we dare not speak of parting ways with it.
The causes are deeply structural. It won't be solved any time soon. We're talking about the fundamental organization of modern society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loneliness_epidemic#Causes_of_...
I think there's a lot of good advice in these comments already, at least for individuals to think about for themselves.
I happen to have discovered a fantastic contra dancing community[1] in Chicago that could be great for some who are lonely. You have to chalk up the courage to go (if you aren't used to trying new things, or dancing), but everyone is extremely welcoming, the dancing is easy even for people "with two left feet", and the happiness going around is truly contagious.
I think it's a terrific place to find community. It's a social dance where you'll basically dance with everyone by the end of the evening. There's time before, in the middle (snack intermission), and at the end for striking some conversation. The dancing is every Monday so it's routine. The crowd (100-150 people on average) is diverse in many ways (at least in age, gender, income, interests) so you're bound to find people with commonalities that, using some of the other advice in these comments, you could try to hang out with outside of the dancing.
As far as getting people to feel like they can join, I'm not the expert, but I've had such a great experience that I'm happy to at least bring it up and "spread the good word".
For outside of Chicago: contra dancing is a bit niche, but a surprising amount of large-ish US cities have it. I think it's more popular (relatively) on the East coast. Can't speak for outside of the US.
[1] https://www.chicagobarndance.org/
Late to the thread but I recommend volunteering. The best medicine for loneliness is to serve others in greater need. Churches, hospitals, libraries, all not-for-profit institutions.
Part of loneliness is feeling like you won't be missed. When you serve others (even indirectly if direct contact is not your thing), you feel needed and have purpose.
Volunteering is a great way to get out of a slump. Service of any kind is really great at gaining new perspective and finding value in life. It helped me realign my life years ago, too.
But I ended up taking it too far. Boundaries start to get blurry, my value started to get wrapped up in my service, to the point it became “well if I stop serving I’ll be worthless”. Which is a tough feeling to face, especially when a subset of the people you end up serving, while appreciative, really end up not caring that much about you as a person. They’re not in a place to give you emotional support, usually.
All that to say, balance is the spice of life. Service is great. Just be sure to balance it out with another source of replenishment.
This definitely helps a little.
But the other part of loneliness is feeling like (or knowing that) nobody cares what you think or feel or have to say.
I've been (accidentally) helping people with my surveys for a few months now. It brings a sense of joy when someone comes up to me and tells me that my presence has helped them or that they look forward to my surveys. But it also increases the loneliness that I feel, because none of them care about me or what I think or how I feel. None of them have ever asked.
Well, except for a couple friends I've made, who clearly do care now, and have shown it in a few ways, but we just haven't had an opportunity yet to have coffee or some other interaction where they can show more directly that they care about me, by asking me about how I feel, etc. But those are the exception.
I suppose, that's what I'm after. Not just personally for myself, but what I'm trying to help solve for other people: to help them get to a point where others actually do care about them, and they have opportunities to show it, such as asking how their day was over coffee. For countless people who are just like me, I think this is all they need to not feel lonely anymore. So that's my goal.
And I don't think volunteering is the answer, but I think it can be a start for some of them, a way to meet people. But just as good a way to meet people as saying hi to the person at the next self checkout kisk or the bus stop. The problem for most people is that they don't say hi. Maybe they're convinced, like I am, that nobody would ever want them to, that they would only be a burdensome bother to others, and therefore should always stay silent.
I suppose this is what I'm trying to solve. How to convince others that this isn't true, as one person standing outside holding a sign.
I usually do night walks, talking to strangers, outcasts such as homeless people, street children, store or restaurant sales persons. I treat them food and talk with them and learn from their stories, I do this consistently that they know me. I genuinely love helping people, I also do ministries which I can say is very effective on helping people with depressions, they will learn to have a purpose in life or at least they will learn that some people are living life with much difficulty. I organize people I do not know and play sports I do not know how to play, and ask people to join. We do monthly activities which is optional for others to join our not. Nothing is forced but every one is welcome.
I do think it's worth separating two things, though. Helping others and building community can be deeply meaningful, but not everyone who's lonely has the capacity
In the past, whenever I felt lonely and hopeless, I jumped into helping others: volunteering, helping an old neighbor garden, help someone move, etc. Helping people gave me a short-term purpose, which eventually let me ride out the low phase of life. YMMV, of course.
I have noticed that doing the sign leads to some good conversations in which I've helped someone in a small way, and that gave me a nice little dopamine boost. It's also led to about half a dozen genuine friendships over the past few months. I wonder if that's the answer, a sort of meta-solution: organizing this thing I'm doing into something that other people in the same situation can do, as a way of meeting people and getting outside their comfort zone. Like setting up a chess table in public if chess is your thing. But no, there are already public chess tables, and they'd have already done that. I don't know, just thinking out loud.
One key is to keep doing it for awhile - the first day with your sign, you were someone on the road.
The eighth time someone sees you? You're the guy with the sign.
Routine and familiarity is important, and it's very easy to fall into situations where we don't see anyone in our routine so we can't become familiar.
This is my go-to strategy as well. When I feel irrepressible bits of loneliness or depression, I just make some food and go out and start handing out to the needy.
Or go for a walk and find people that need a hand. People moving, lifting things, carrying things. Small little acts of being useful and helpful for a moment help.
The feeling will creep back in eventually, but at least for that time I was out and about, it's not.
The common denominator is to have shared spaces where it's expected to be among strangers' presence, and for those strangers to eventually become repeat guests in a person's life. That's the maximally comfortable scenario for inducing social behavior and it's responsible for eons of human social history. Think church.
The problem there is that it's the responsibility of groups or society to arrange that. There's not much that a single lonely person can do there.
The less common denominator, that an individual may partake in until society concocts a better solution, is to intentionally visit existing shared spaces even where they otherwise wouldn't (hint: bouldering gyms are good for this because there are repeat faces as well as a social okay-ness to congratulating strangers, or asking how certain challenges can be solved).
Or break with convention, comfort, and perhaps etiquette, and instead just talk to people. Even outside of those spaces. (This is the advice that will piss a lot of people off if it's presented as their only option.) This advice is horrible until it isn't. It does, with enough practice, 'just work'.
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For an entrepreneur or organizer: it would just go a long way to think about things in terms of allowing conversation to happen unimpeded. Pay attention to where people talk, and about what. Conversations happen a lot in hallways but famously by water coolers, perhaps because it affords people enough time in a shared space to muster the internal capital to start a conversation.
In college I ran a forum for people to meet others and some of the most self-reportedly successful participants just asked questions into the void and were surprised by the number of responses.
>The common denominator is to have shared spaces where it's expected to be among strangers' presence, and for those strangers to eventually become repeat guests in a person's life. That's the maximally comfortable scenario for inducing social behavior and it's responsible for eons of human social history.
This is spot on. It's why you meet so much people during your high school / college years. You're among strangers' presence, while attending to class, which makes a natural topic of interest between the people involved.
We are training a culture of passive consumers who don’t create. People are attracted to activity and action. The next generation is inundated with creation through their phone. They don’t see the space to create. They sit at home alone wondering why they are alone. The reality is because they are consumers not creators. You must produce.
I think a lot about something I've heard game devs say. Something like "players will always find a way to optimize the fun out of the game".
Controversial example: in Breath of the Wild, your weapons break really fast. But, they only break while fighting enemies and looting places, so you almost always end up with more/higher-powered weapons. It's the game's way of always giving you new weapons that have different quirky properties to keep combat interesting. But players don't like that friction and uncertainty: it's probably the most hated on aspect of the game. Players want to keep their same weapons the whole time, and miss out on the constant variety.
I think that in the same way, we've optimized the fun out of life. We collectively tend to avoid uncertainty and friction. We let yelp/google maps reviews tell us what restaurants are good. We watch movies at home instead of trekking all the way to the movie theater. Get food delivered and even dropped off at the door so we literally don't even have to speak to another human at all. We've been optimizing the fun out of life, and we didn't realize it until it was bad enough to be called a "loneliness epidemic"!!
https://xkcd.com/662/
I disagree with your sentiment though.
Yes, addictive consumption is bad, and apps shouldn't be designed for that. And as long as they are, we should try to find ways to undo the damage and help people heal and recover from content addiction, and find alternatives to it.
But that's not to say that consuming is inherently bad.
Consider that a conversation is genuinely an interactive, dynamic, mutual event where you both are both consuming and creating content. One person creates a topic out of recent memories or recites a joke, the other person hears it, and enjoys it. This is an act of consumption. It's not wrong or bad or harmful or blameworthy. It's the other end of creation, a necessary part of it.
In your ideal world, where we have people endlessly creating, who would consume what they create? We need both. We need platforms to share our creations, and to consume the creations of others. Real life has been a neglected platform for this, especially for countless lonely people who have no one to interact with.
The first place to look is suburban development.
I wrote an article[0] on Tiny Neighborhoods (aka “Cohousing”) that starts with:
> “I often wonder if the standard approach to housing is the best we can do. About 70% of Americans live in a suburb, which means that this design pattern affects our lives – where we shop, how we eat, who we know – more than any other part of modern life.”
We have been so uncritical of the set of ideas that make suburbia—single family homes, one car per adult, large private yards—even though these play a big role in how people act.
Some people want to address loneliness by making incremental changes. But if the statistics are right and nearly everyone is somewhat lonely, we should expect that the required adjustments feel “drastic” compared to the current norm.
People would be less lonely if they could live in a community of 15-20 families with (1) shared space and (2) shared expectations for working together on their shared space.
[0] https://iambateman.com/tiny
I posted on another subthread but I think this is largely an excuse. If you live in a typical suburb you have 15-20 families on your street. You can easily walk next door and chat or just say hello when you see someone outside. It takes initiative, which is the key thing that's missing. You either hide in your house or you get out and be sociable.
> You can easily walk next door and chat or just say hello when you see someone outside.
I have no problem with socialization and I have an unusually-active social life for a thirty-eight year old married man with three kids, so I clearly don't lack initiative.
With that being said, all of my neighbors are either elderly, shut-ins, or just don't want to be bothered; even the ones with kids.
My wife & I helped organize a Block Party last year and I'm fairly certain it resulted in 0 new friendships for any of the attendees.
What's the solution here? Friendships need to have mutual interest, no?
I think it's a circular problem. Like, my kids don't go outside much because there are no other kids outside to play with.
There's no question that there are 15-20 families within 300 yards of my house. But that group of people absolutely does not have a sense of shared anything but the road.
And the fact is that this is true of the supermajority of suburban streets in the United States.
I don't disagree but 30 years ago the people in those kinds of neighborhoods did get out and talk to each other, did organize cookouts and other gatherings, and in general were sociable neighbors. The people changed.
The greed of wall street and the powers that be bubbles down. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with property values and insurance and strict HOA regs. The purpose of housing in the USA has nothing to do with families or people, it is an investment for growing wealth, and nothing more. If you treat a house like a home, you are negatively affecting your property value and net worth (and your neighbors.)
the noise and unseemliness of cookouts and other gatherings negatively affects property value. That's the sort of thing you see in scary bad neighborhoods on TV. Just drive 45 minutes to the strip mall 6 miles away and gather at one of the corporate chain establishments.
I live in a completely different city, a post-soviet one, with dense streets, 9-storey apartment buildings. But still it's hard to socialize. It's the same both in the center, and on the fringe with large micro-districts, where the density is the same, but people are less in haste, and there are less strangers. Same way, people are avoidant.
Like in subway you pretend that others don't exist, and it's hard to get closer with people. It can take months or years to start saying hello to a kiosk salesman you recognize. It's hard to get past by hello with the house neighbors. If you make steps forward, people are unease. Sometimes others are too quick with their steps, you get unease.
The most compelling theory I know is that you need to meet people occasionally, without intention, to deepen the relationships. If all your communication with someone is intentional, I guess, this feels awkward for both sides. I can confirm this from experience: living in a 80K town, I'd walk down the main street to the little shopping mall with a local supermarket for groceries, and would meet people I knew, or friends, and sometimes we'd go walking by the streets, with groceries bag in my hand :) or we planned to meet in 15 minutes. Or go to each other's home. This is hard to replicate in a big city, where even if you see a friend, he/she is usually in a hurry.
Near apartment blocks, there's no porch or garden or park, and even where there is one, I don't see locals sitting there regularly. People are very cautious, even suspicious of benches, because if there's a busy street nearby, once in a year there'll be a group of noisy young people sitting late at night, or one drunkard in a year, and everyone will get pissed off and want the bench removed. (If they allow to install it at all.)
Looking at some places, I theorized that maybe there should be a place where you could sit and let's say play board games _near_ those who come in and out. And of course, it should be indoors, because winters are long and cold. But But I'm not sure of a communal place indoors either. It could become a magnet for homeless, it can be a magnet for just the slacker drinking old men, and repel the rest of people. I've seen too many communities become place repulsive for "normies". Maintenance is a big question too.
Something I've noticed with me and other gen-Zers is that meeting with friends or strangers over Discord VoIP is a great way to socialize. It's missing some of the social benefits of in-person meetups, but it's very low-commitment (just hope on a call) and it's much easier to find others who share your interests.
So your solution to loneliness is “use voice chat”?
I built an art practice after volunteering on Burning Man projects for a few years. I’m now a competent art fabricator and engineer in carpentry, lighting, electronics, and power systems. It’s fun, and it keeps me connected to lots of different communities. You meet a lot of people who like to get together and nerd out, host parties, and make cool things.
When people talk about the loneliness epidemic, I realize how lucky I am to be in community with people who want to get together to do cool things just for fun. I know these kinds of art communities also exist in places outside the Bay Area, and it seems like a good model for creating excuses for people to gather anywhere.
“Get a hobby and find the others” seems like its too simple to be the answer here, but that’s what it is for me.
Where "get a hobby" often falls flat is that many modern hobbies are solo, screen-based, or optimized to be efficient rather than social
I'll add another suggestion: be more forgiving.
Anecdote: I had a friend in SF. He and I would hang out once in a while, and I always looked forward to these hangouts (we'd meet up for coffee, or go for a walk, hang out at Dolores Park, etc.). He is gay, I'm not. His perspective on things was often quite different than mine and I found that interesting. I got married, he stayed single. Even after marriage we would still hang out (though not as often as before). Then we had a child, which sucked all spare time out of my life; but even then we hung out once in a while. Then one winter there was cold/flu/COVID going around. We planned on hanging out and I unfortunately bailed on him at the last moment. This happened 2 more times. Then that bout of illnesses passed and I reached out to him to hang out again. But this time he seemed cold and distant. So I dropped it. And I didn't see him again for almost 3 years.
Then one day I ran into him while walking through Dolores Park. He didn't see me, but I hesitated and still hollered out at him, for old times' sake. He responded and walked over. We chatted a little, I gave him a parting hug and we agreed to hang out again.
A couple of weeks later we managed to hang out again. What I gathered from our meeting was that he had been miffed at what he thought was me blowing him off; and I, when I felt he was cold and distant, had misread his grief at losing his cat. We both misread each other and wasted 3 years.
Moral of the story that I took away from it was: be more forgiving. Friendships are worth the extra effort.
Since it's a societal problem, but solved on the microlevel of one person at a time, it seems the way to have a broader effect is to show the value of having connection with other people over the value of not.
Overcome any addictions (scrolling, gaming, etc.) that stand in the way would be easier if the goal was clear.
Overcoming attitudes and defensive beliefs (too many cliques, they won't talk to me...) go away when you can either recall a time when you had friends or know others who do.
Convince people it's better (in their own value system) to be social, have friends of all kinds, and let them know their value and meaning increase by being a friend, I think you'd have a hard time stopping people from becoming social.
Church used to hold more sway with people in forming communities. When at its best, it provides a safe place for strengthening relationships, celebrating the community's successes and mourning with the time calls for it. If you are lonely, try a church regardless of your spiritual beliefs. You are always welcome at mine!
Having a family solves this issue nicely. I have a wife and five kids, and none of us are lonely because we have each other. It's one of the choices I made in life that I am most grateful for.
Way to completely miss the point there bub. Most crass answer here.
There's also a 50% chance he will not have that company at some point in his life, and will become part of the loneliness epidemic, which for some reason he's not taking into account.
I was the head of the men's group for my town's Newcomers Club and when it comes to having a blueprint for organizing a small, quick gathering I cannot say enough about Nick Gray's [0] book The Two Hour Cocktail Party [1]
It has tons of small but useful tips:
- host it Monday or Tuesday from 7-9pm. People are usually free those nights and make sure it ends at 9pm for the folks who have to wake up early
- don't send an evite with "0 of 60 guest have responded". Start by having your core group accept and then send the invite directly to each new person
- have name tags. but make sure YOU fill out the name tags or you will have "Batman" and "Superman" at your party
- introduce people and have "get to know you games"
Now, I'm sure someone will say "this is so formulaic and doesn't feel natural!". That's kind of the point. You need to give folks some structure to be able to interact. The name tags for example remove the "oh, I met this person before but I can't remember their name so I just won't talk to them" etc.
0 - https://x.com/nickgraynews
1 - https://amzn.to/3ZhtSfi
In a general sense, I think two things about this suggestion are universally useful in solving the epidemic: structured activities with clear expectations, and people who take the initiative to design and execute them.
For those people who I'm personally trying to reach, those who sit at home alone all day, and you only see them on the way to the grocery store and back, who desperately want to interact with people but don't know how to begin, they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.
Thank you for helping me realize that.
> they need someone to initiate the interaction, and they need to know the rules of the interaction, since this is mainly the reason they don't feel comfortable with freeform interactions with strangers and so avoid them.
You hit the nail on the head with the above.
It's why things like square dancing where so popular back in the day.
It gave men and women an easy to learn, simple to follow set of rules for interacting with the opposite sex with as little ambiguity as possible. e.g someone was literally calling out what to do next so you could enjoy the moment rather than thinking "oh no, I'm not sure what to do next!"
I've not looked at the research associated with the Friendship Bench [1] or UK Men's Sheds [2] -- evaluations or data associated with the model's development -- but I would be surprised if either relied only on individual action. Meaning, the resource is there but participation relies heavily or solely on an individual taking affirmative action to join.
I agree with others that individual initiative is important for connections to be made, but I struggle with imagining how people find out about what the opportunities are. Certainly, there's been a ton of work on social isolation, community connections, whatever you call it, and at some point I need to dive in.
This space needs a lot of investment as well as evaluation of initiatives. I worked in nonprofit land in the US for years and from my limited view of the landscape, way more work is needed to determine what works and fund that and not fund efforts that take no initiative to show their effectiveness.
[1] https://www.friendship-bench.org/ [2] https://menssheds.org.uk/
Sports. CrossFit and similar social sports have been healthy for me and for many others, and I think the community is at least equal to the exercise in improving people's lives.
Not saying this is the only way, but it made a big difference for me and my friends. I realize the physical challenges are artificial, but so is an Advent of Code puzzle when you already have a day job. Hard things are worth doing because they're hard, and they're even better when done together with those you love.
I will separate this into expensive, still has a cost, and "free"
Expensive:
Car meetups and car modding
Horse based activities (learning to ride etc is group based)
learning a craft (ie blacksmithing, knitting circles, ceramics)
Swordfighting of various styles (east/west/modern/renaissance/polish drunk people in armour)
Warhammer
Cost, but not as much:
local hackspace
local cycle club
Local running club
Local team sports (real football, basketball, baseball, tennis, 5-a-side)
local choir (secular)
Amateur dramatics (highly recommended, darling.)
Free, but with connotations
Scouting adult leader
Local environmental people (ie park maintenance )
Animal shelter
charity shop
local choir (religious)
local organised religion
local political party organisation
I’ve always been someone who likes to go to local coffee shops, shops, and walks around the neighborhood. While I’ve met a few friendly employees who learn my name and say hi to me, in general I’ve found customers and people in general aren’t super approachable. They’re usually there as a part of an existing group of friends, or are focused on their work.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to meet people in this situation, but it is difficult to break the ice. Especially if your social skills are rusty.
On a larger scale, I think most people’s budget for anonymous social interaction is consumed through social media, where they scroll past strangers arguing and let’s be honest, mostly vitriolic comments. So in the real world, they don’t want to deal with anonymous strangers and intently focus on their own friendships.
Groups are a good way to bridge this gap, but the groups that are easier to host aren’t always accessible to everyone. And they require a lot of time and ideally strong social skills to run effectively.
I’ve thought about starting a campaign to make socializing with people in person more of a common practice again, but I’m honestly not sure how to convince enough people
Affordable third places[0] where people can impromptu join and serendipitously meet friendly faces repeatedly. All of my strong friendships were from exactly this at either skateparks, college dorm common area, or run clubs. Churches had this figured out for millenia
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
it seems like a lot of locales that would have been third places in the past have been neutered because the people go there and then immediately put up walls. coffeeshops have become ad-hoc offices where people will sit there with a laptop and give off "leave me alone, i'm working".
people need to find a way to sit in a third space without pulling up a screen or a book that immediately re-isolates you.
also: don't underestimate the subtle effect of architecture and seating arrangements here. a coffee shop is filled with lots of little two-seat tables that intentionally isolate. for contrast, think about local pubs/bars -- there's one big central seating arrangement where evertybody is facing the bartender. the bartender is naturally placed in a position that makes them serve as a conversational mediator that can facilitate connections between then people hanging out on the periphery.
CTRL+F "third place" -- take my upvote.
Anyone suffering in the loneliness epidemic should have a copy of The Great Good Place, by Ray Oldenburg. The entire point is that you should be putting yourself into socially active areas in your community.
This includes: a church, a local pub or coffee shop with regulars (ideally walking distance from where you live), a rec sports/game league or club.
Knowing this, I've perused it in my life and it seems very effective. I'm a regular at a Trivia Night one night per week (I don't go every week, but enough to know both the bartender and host by name). I'm a regular at a bar three blocks away from where I live, even if I consume only one non-alcoholic beverage and one alcoholic beverage per visit (a couple night a week), that leaves me plenty of time to chat with my neighbors. I'm a member of a local golf club (a very cheap municipal course), and play there every other week, and after a couple years have very good relationships with many of the other members even if we don't interact much outside of the club. At my last apartment, I was a regular at the coffee shop enough to know multiple baristas by name, it wasn't exactly a third place situation, but it was getting close before I moved. I'm not religious, but I'm very familiar with academic institutions and open lecture series that I used tot attend in grad school.
I do this intentionally. My partner had never been a regular at a bar before, and she really, really enjoys it now even though she doesn't really drink. When she joins me, she will maybe consume one-half of a light beer. You don't have to be an alcoholic to be a regular, this is a major point that Oldenburg discusses when he contrasts German-style drinking culture with English-style drinking culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Good_Place_(book)
There are, of course, multiple causes for loneliness. We can't fix them all with one clear action. Here are the main five, in my view:
First, social media. It's too easy to temporarily forget about your loneliness by staying home and doomscrolling or watching TV.
Second, increased mobility. People move around the whole continent now for work, removing them from their closest and oldest social connections.
Third, God is dead. Churches as community centers are dying out. Young people don't trust them anymore, because they don't believe in God, and because churches had many scandals. Secular community centers are very rare and struggle with funding.
Fourth, work is more stressful now. There used to be more time to socialize, but in our quest for productivity, work became denser with fewer idle times.
Fifth, fewer people want to have kids. Much has been written about this.
Now what can we do at societal scale? First of all, study the phenomenon more closely. Who is lonely? Who isn't? Which interventions work? Which cultural factors are important? At your local scale, you can just call or meet a friend.
> Fourth, work is more stressful now. There used to be more time to socialize, but in our quest for productivity, work became denser with fewer idle times
The we here is not most people.
The quest for higher productivity is not something people really care about.
Make a social app whose goal is to get people off their phone as quickly as possible. There used to be a slew of apps where you a press a button to indicate "I'm bored/free, who wants to hang out?" and then you get matched with your contact list and anyone else who pressed the button at the same time. But for whatever reason they all flamed out and died.
I think the solution is for the app to advertise public social events where people can make connections and exchange contact information in person.
Allowing random people to message each other without meeting in person is a mistake. The nonverbal cues people get from in person interactions are helpful for discovering shared interested and personality compatibility.
one issue is that if you leave it to the free market, you will just get more issues. for monopolies, it's more profitable to keep someone unhealthy (and depressed) than it is to make someone healthy once forever.
Privacy reasons. You don’t want a VC funded startup to know your contact list and your location (because hanging out in real life requires physical proximity).
Personally I’m living with a partner (only 50% of the time for now), have only two social activities per month outside work in average and some small talk at work. I don’t need more and have no intention to volunteer, join church or anything like that just for the social aspect. I guess the big problem is the (growing?) minority having close to no social experiences.
A young woman explained to me the other week what you're doing now. She said it's become a meme called Bean Soup. I'm grateful for all the friends I've made since I starting doing my signs. Genuinely fulfilling friendships, for the first time in my life.
Shared stressors are what bring people together. Communities form when a group of people all have the same problem. Go around egging peoples homes in your neighbourhood, and keep doing it. By the time your neighbours finally catch you they will all have gotten to know and appreciate one another better. They will have formed a communtiy identity.
Ritual, purpose and community are what's required to build a group.
I cured my own loneliness episode by joining a local running group. It provides the same kind of thing as church. Ritual, we meet every week and there's a few different groups. Purpose, it doesn't feel useless to be improving your fitness level. And community comes when you suffer through a run with others.
Showing up regularly means you start to integrate people into your lives as you know when they skip a week for a vacation or something.
I went from living in my town and not knowing anyone for 17 years to having 20+ friends or people I can say hello to and have a chat.
Just find a local running group, or start one. You want the "meet at Starbucks at 6:30 on Tuesday" ones. Show up and keep showing up and you'll make friends. It's impossible to be on your phone when you run and there's always something running related to keep the conversation going.
Do you run at the same pace? I'm just curious how can conversations between multiple people running are going on
Mostly yes, the group stays together. We run road or trail not track. No one is really serious about pace and time, or if you are you treat group runs as social time and do your own thing later.
One group just meets at the start, people go off and do their own thing and then come back to the start for coffee at a cafe. That way everyone from walkers to people doing a long run can all hang out afterwards but not actually run together.
The best are trail runs with 8-10 people, you end up walking the hills and take a short break every 5-10 minutes so you can chat with almost everyone over the hour you're out there.
No one is asking for this advice, but I'm sharing it anyways.
My #1 top priority this year is _social health_. I'm taking it into my own hands. Mostly just continuing things I'm already doing with tremendous payoff. My measurable result is going to be throwing my own birthday party in fall. I've never done that before, I've never had enough friends in my city!
No one group or app is going to come save you from loneliness. You have to get up, go outside, and find people.
0. Say yes to everything, at least if you're new in town. Don't care how scared you are of X social situation. "Do it scared" - @jxnl
1. I am part of my community's swing dancing scene. I take classes, go to social dances, I _show up_ even when I don't feel like it. People recognize me now, know my name, etc. I'm also a regular at my gym. Find a place and be a regular face there. (_how did I become a swing dancer? I got invited, and my social policy prevented me from saying no!_)
2. If I have no social plans for a week I do a timeleft dinner (dinner with 5 strangers). Always have something on the books. I call this my "social workout". If I vibe with anyone I ask if they want to grab ramen the following weekend. Leads me to point #3..
3. Initiate plans. Everyone is waiting for that text "hey, want to go do x with me?". Be that person. I have an almost 100% enthusiastic response rate to asking people to do literally anything. Go on a random walk? Go to costco? Go checkout ramen or pizza spot? You don't have to think of anything special. Whatever you're already doing.. ask someone to come with! Soon they start inviting you to do random stuff.
4. (experimental) I don't drink, which does curtail my social opportunities. I'm considering updating my drinking policy this year. My hypothesis is that the benefits of having a strong community out-weigh the health benefits of abstinence.
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Spending time in parts of Latin America or western Europe or east Asia and then coming back to the US, you can see a lot of ways in which we've built loneliness into the fabric of US culture.
It goes beyond car culture. It's probably illegal to build a cafe within walking distance of your neighborhood or into the first floor of your apartment complex.
Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.
> Latin America or western Europe or east Asia
I can attest both LatAm and Europe are quickly turning the same way. At least in the bigger cities. Take public transport and 70% are frying their brains with their phones on algorithmic timelines, dumb mobile games, or worse. Women even more. You go to a bar and try to start a conversation and people look at you like you are a creep or a scammer. I've heard this happens to Gen Z, too.
> phones on algorithmic timelines
Are you suggesting that American tech helped spread this loneliness worldwide? Ultimate triumph of individualism.
It’s hard to deny the role of social media in all of this.
Public transport was never a place where you start conversation with a stranger. Nor even meant to be that space. I genuinely do not understand why would you pick public transport as a place where you would expect people to socialize.
And yes, I was using public transport before cell phones. And yes, women are using public transport more then men, always were, because if the family have only one car, man is typically the one using it.
Both latam and western europe report and east Asia report higher loneliness rates than the US or the Nordics. Very consistently.
American culture allows you folks to talk to each other, though.
Growing up British means that I literally can't talk to a stranger unless I'm in a pub and have two pints inside me.
There's a loophole. All dog owners are allowed to strike up conversations with other dog owners about their dogs.
That's only if you like dogs, I guess.
In America no one really drinks any more.
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As someone who was a libertarian as a child, I assure you the idea of relaxing regulations is quite unpopular.
Lots of factors cause this. Obviously established businesses hate competition. There seems to be a tendency for politicians to make more laws as a bandaid rather than remove old(but this isnt universally true). And finally and probably most importantly, people like the status quo. Change is scary.
Also I live in the suburbs and we have a coffee shop within 2 minutes walking. I just have a hard time paying $4 for a coffee to meet people when most people are on their laptops anyway.
My friends come from sports clubs, parties, and the parents of my kids via birthday parties.
> Americans get an idea of how bad we have it when we go on vacation, but we don't see it as something that can be built at home.
It's so strange how this works. They go, sometimes repeatedly, to enjoy these rather basic things, but behave as though they're visiting a quaint Disneyland of sorts and as though there could be no lessons they could take away and apply toward a vision of their own community...
americans are too terrified of somebody getting something for free to ever tolerate that. it's okay in other countries, because other countries are deserving of charity, and the americans who travel to them have implicitly passed the wealth test by affording to travel there.
but back home in america, any nice thing in a public space might be an un-earned benefit to an american citizen who is slightly less rich. and we can't have that. if an American wants an amenity, they sould pay for it. parks, benches, pathways, any sort of gathering space, it all can't be had because it might attract poor people.
> or into the first floor of your apartment complex.
I wouldn't trust a cafe built into an apartment complex. I'd expect it to be low-quality, over-priced food placed specifically to try and make a quick buck off people who don't know any better or who physically can't get somewhere better.
You're right that it goes beyond car culture (and zoning laws are part of car culture), but I think it also goes beyond zoning laws. A lack of a social contract between people (individually) and businesses these days is probably involved, too. All these things are interrelated.
I’m literally surrounded by these shops, as is anyone in any town that doesn’t depend on suburbia. It’s *wonderful* and the prices are good.
I’m eating a whole dinner for about $10 tonight, out. Easily like 1300 calories of very delicious food.
In the PNW.
You're "literally surrounded" by cafes built into the first floor of your apartment complex? Because that's what I was very clearly talking about. Not shops within walking distance.
(I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious.")
Well, let’s see, in this building - an apartment complex, there’s:
The apartment building next door has: The apartment one apartment away has: So, yes.Where do you live that this is so bizarre? Multi story buildings with retail space on the bottom and residential space at the top are very common in cities.
> I didn't ask and don't care if you think your cheap meal's "very delicious," by the way. That's not the main indicator of quality. Many Americans would call a Big Mac "very delicious."
What’s the point of this? This is just needlessly rude.
Maybe consider that the overpriced part is fine because you are paying for the time you save.
There are many ways to look at things
-t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools.
There's a limit to the convenience factor. Fast food used to be cheap because it was faster than real food. Now it's expensive, and less real than it was to start with. A hip no-name cafe owned by a huge conglomerate charging $17 for a microwaved sandwich or something is objectively a bad deal.
Ensuring you never have to leave the comfort of your apartment complex is also of questionable relevance to solving loneliness/getting people to meet each other.
> -t. not an Absurdist, but sometimes I use the tools.
Did you accidentally paste part of a different comment or something?
Only if it's a rare novelty. If having a cafe near by is just the norm, it isn't any more expensive.
I didn't say "near by," I said "built into an apartment complex," which is one of the things the person I replied to threw out casually as an option.
I've lived in places that had restaurants on the ground floor of the building and they were the same prices as anywhere else. I'm actually surprised you find this unrealistic since it's so common in Australian cities. It's pretty much standard to have retail on ground and apartments above.
This is common in American cities, too. And European cities I’ve visited. And probably most cities that I haven’t visited.
When I visited Tokyo one really jarring thing was to realize that restaurants and cafes and such were often on the 2nd or 3rd floor. It’s so dense and so high-rise, in some areas at least, that these “ground floor” shops are also pushed upwards and inhabit the bottom 2-3 floors instead of just the ground floor.
Why is that odd? Lots of apartment buildings in big cities have the first floor (or 2) for retail. Some apartments / condos have a whole mall downstairs.
I have been working on a theoretical framework regarding these topics lately, and I believe this isolation is a structural phenomenon rather than an individual failure.
Until around 80s to 90s, when we say “that album is really good”, we shared plenty of experiences along. Such as, looking up for release news, getting to the record store, purchasing, and so on.
People listened to the full tracks in that album again and again.
Nowadays, the same sentence “that album is really good” carries far more less than before. Algorithms just bring tracks to us, we buy albums by a click.
The density of shared experience itself has been degraded, and more effort is required for us to understand each other.
I’ve named this phenomena as “Experiential Thinning”.
The experiential substance to get to know each other is getting scarce.
I don't think this will ever be resolved.
It's a twofold problem, I believe. People are lonely because of fear of rejection and also actively avoid new people out of caution and high standards.
So two people who are otherwise lonely will make no effort to connect.
I think social networks have done a tremendous amount of damage to our collective psyche. Because on the web, you can single-click permanently block someone and never see them again. If you are admin of a group this person is in, you can also ban this person and prevent them from interacting with members of the group (in the group, that is, you cannot control private messages, but by banning someone from a community you are effectively isolating them), and I think we haven't considered how much power we are giving to random Reddit mods due to this.
I do believe high standards are behind a lot of the dating issues. Dating pools are so large that people hold out for the right combination of the things they find desirable--except they're never going to find that because they don't have exactly the right combination to attract that "perfect" match.
I can't help but think that in 1910, both the concept of "fear of rejection" and "high standards" would have made no sense to people at the time. Yet I would agree that they are valid concepts today. We have to explore why these two concepts exist and why they did not exist in 1910. It seems valid to call them side effects of something bigger, what the bigger is I don't know. I don't see how society can address these two issues without addressing the other issues that lead to the existence of these.
I'm not sure why you believe that "high standards" and "fear of rejection" didn't exist a hundred years ago. Think Gatsby, from the Great Gatsby (published 1925): dude longed for human connection (hence throwing massive parties), but was terrified of being outed as not belonging to the social strata he found himself in. That's fear of rejection. People being to good for others is basis of the class system, and that predates written history.
Is that REALLY a lot of power, though? Reddit is quasi-anonymous, how "isolated" are you when you can create a different account in seconds?
When I said "Reddit mods" I didn't mean literally Reddit, but the overzealous nature of full-time Internet moderators with too much free time.
Regardless ban evasion is always forbidden so if you slip up or get caught because of the way you type or whatever, you will be banned again.
> Regardless ban evasion is always forbidden so if you slip up pr get caught because of the way you type or whatever, you will be banned again.
so you create another account?
they don't even do IP bans, (er, so I hear)
Reddit doesn't do hard IP bans, but they do a lot of fingerprinting to link alt accounts together and will ban them all. You can get around it but you have to be pretty careful, wiping cookies on all your devices, signing up from a new IP, never logging in to the old accounts again, etc.
And if they do, there’s VPN
There is a gap between thinking and action. I think the social media and gaming and online stimulions currently designed to bombard and drain your thinking brain, leaves nothing for the action you and your body needs to take. Your brain only has so much chemistry to trigger neural activation and we are blowing it on mental stress to the point where the body doesn’t have any more mental energy to tackle real world stress or handle real world emotions.
Try an A/B test. Do days with zero screen stimuli - no TV, no phones, no online interaction. Go into the world to a cafe, or a common area with people and do stuff. See how you feel and what you feel up to. Vacations might be good and relaxing because you disconnect. Maybe do it without paying for it.
It's the phones dude. It's literally just the phones. Get rid of the phones and you fix it.
Old geezer take: If you're referring to smart phones - social engagement in the US was already headed down 5 decades before those were invented. I blame TV.
Indeed, TV enabled millions of people to laugh at the same joke simultaneously, each sitting alone on their own sofa.
Todays https://ripplegame.app/ had an interesting connection to this topic...
It seems that once again striving for efficiency in society is bad in some way for the social part of humans...
It cannot be solved, at least not in the way I think people want it to be.
We’re lonely because we are wired to avoid rejection and uncomfortable social situations, and because technology has given us hundreds of alternatives to sitting in the mess of connecting with people.
You can only solve it in your own life - by being courageous and spending more of your time in the physical world than in the digital one, willing to gro through the shitty feelings that come with being a human trying to meet other humans.
You cannot solve it for other people. There’s no sexy solution here. Meetup.com or whatever dating app or tech platform or not for profit will not fix it, because it takes individuals choosing the hard path and that will never happen en masse.
Is there a loneliness epidemic? Or is this viewing history through rose colored glasses?
Is the shift from how society used to work to how society has come to work real or just a grammatically correct statement?
Statistics are biased by those who compute them. Have we asked everyone or inferred and p-hacked up data points?
The single salary family is largely a myth. A relatively small percentage of the population ever achieved that. Is the same true for loneliness? Is it a bigger problem now than it has been?
Is this like in medicine where we think ADHD is up, cancer is up... it's an epidemic! When in reality as a percent of society things are normal, we just had no idea before how prevalent those things were before we measured.
Unlike the supposedly golden 1950s, a lot of people today were adults before and after the 2010s and would say similar things comparing the two.
Some ideas:
- Get rid of AI chat bots, limit social media use to federated platforms, get out more.
- Encourage cities to build spaces for people rather than cars where folks can meet up without the pressure to buy things and leave. Spaces for walking and hanging out.
It’s all about fostering community again, and that’s more than just shared calendars and town events.
It’s “third places” where folks can just hang out and work, play, share, and commiserate without having to pay money to do so.
It’s bringing back establishments that promote lingering and loitering, like food halls or coffee shops, rather than chasing out folks.
It’s about building community centers inside apartment complexes, more public green space, more venues and forums.
Giving people space that doesn’t require a form of payment is the best approach, because humans will take advantage of what’s out there naturally. Sure, structure helps, but space is the issue at present I believe.
> but space is the issue at present I believe.
Is it? There are a number of third places around here that sit effectively vacant. The few who are passionate about seeing those spaces thrive will tell you that the problem is getting anyone to come, not finding space to host them.
I live in a major metro renowned for its green space, but we absolutely still have a space issue.
* Outdoor spaces close at dusk for the most part, restricting sociability in the winter months when it’s darker, sooner, and longer.
* Winters are cold, making outdoor spaces less usable during those months
* Indoor spaces are exclusively fee-oriented. Coffee shops evict customers after an hour or so, movie theaters can run upwards of $30 a person for a ticket and a snack, malls eject loiterers, gallerias harass anyone clearly not there to do business.
* The few places NOT fee-oriented - like public libraries - are either saturated with use and lack capacity for more folks, or are under-used due to requiring a car to access them.
* Youth in particular lack third-spaces to explore within, fee or no-fee. One roller rink serves the entire north portion of the city and isn’t accessible except by car. Ice rinks are co-opted by hockey teams year-round. Bowling alleys can run $15/person/game, at times, and dwindle in number. Schools are closed except to those involved in extracurriculars after-hours. Arcades are non-existent, the sole skate park closes at dusk, and cops or security harass any group of teenagers they find, especially in parks or public spaces. It’s bad enough as an adult with a car, it’s downright hostile to anyone young or unable to drive.
* The few genuine community centers that do exist, generally operate solely in rich towns that restrict access to citizens, or in impoverished areas and tied to specific special interest agendas for access - many of which may be good, but many more attempt to convert visitors to religions or political groups.
* Even if someone has space in their apartment to host, landlords have gotten so sleazy that parking for visitors is either non-existent or costs money to utilize, thus reducing the ability to host at all without spending more money.
But you’re right, it’s not necessarily a space issue.
It’s a money issue, in that we’ve built a society where you’re barred from enjoyment, self-discovery, or group fulfillment unless you’re spending $20 an hour or white and old enough to be invisible to cops and Karens.
> It’s a money issue
It is not. While said third places obviously do need resources to operate, that has already been figured out by those passionate to make a go of having the third place. Generous donations, grants, and fundraising go a long way.
I do buy that it is somewhat of a marketing problem. I expect a lot of people don't even know they exist. I was once talking to someone who literally lives just three doors down from one of those third places and it never occurred to him that he could even go in. But he also hasn't even now that he knows he can. That's quite telling.
I can also agree that there is a bit of a bootstrapping problem. If you show up and there is only a couple of other people there, you're not likely to return. If it was full of people, that'd be more compelling.
But these third places did thrive once upon a time. The bootstrapping problem was solved. The marketing problem was solved. It all fell apart because people found other things to do. The reality is that the population at large does not see a need for third places (of the type you speak) anymore. Houses nowadays are way bigger and more comfortable than they used to be so there isn't as much feeling of pressure to get out, there are more activities going on to occupy one's time[1], of course technology has become a significant distraction, etc.
[1] For example, my grandparents' generation would have never heard of putting their children in sports. My parents' generation would take their kids to a sport about once a week. Nowadays parents are carting their kids off to sporting events every single night of the week! That doesn't leave time to occupy a third place[2].
[2] The sporting event venue is technically a third place[3], granted, but if you've been to one you'll know they aren't particularly social for the parents. They mostly just sit there watching their children (or phone, quite often), not to mention that the considerable time spent in the car travelling from far off place to far off place to get to the competition is not social at all. I don't think that is what you have in mind with respect to the greater conversation.
[3] Open to the public, free of charge. If I am wrong above and this is what you did have in mind, then it serves as another example of the space being there with no need for you to open your wallet. All you have to do is show up. But will you? I already know the answer is "No." The actual parents don't even look like they want to be there most of the time.
Make a social network that is centered around people who live in a 1 kilometer radius
Make them interact and do things, generally they will be less toxic because it will reduce their online disinhibition effect.
Make them have meals, meet, walk at the park, whatever.
I have considered a "physical social network". Standing on my usual street corner and holding a sign that directs strangers to join me and whoever else shows up, for a casual chat at the local coffee place at a specific time, with a few topics for conversation listed on the sign up front. If anyone has ideas for those topics, let me know, I'm likely to do it this Sunday.
you laugh, but bringing people back to reality might require using screens to do it
Actually I am open to the idea of an (minimalistic, non-profit) app helping solve this. What kind of app, I'm not sure, but I'm open to all ideas, including technology based ones.
I only said that because you reminded me of an idea I had, for a social experiment that tries to bring some "social media" elements into an in-person setting, to see what happens. (I do wish I could afford a camera and someone to man it, I've been told several times that I'd go viral.)
When NextDoor first came around, I recall walking down the street to help a lady move her couch down to the ground floor. She then gave me some cookies she'd baked. Fun! The notifications it sends me these days are less enjoyable so I send them to spam because unsubscribing doesn't seem to reliably work for me.
> Make a social network that is centered around people who live in a 1 kilometer radius…
Don't know if they still do, but Nextdoor required address verification via a postcard early on. I was pretty shocked at what some people in my area would post under their real names and locations.
(And well outside the realm of political nonsense. Someone posted a pic of their toddler's first poop in the potty.)
I think the power of shame has reduced significantly in recent years.
I think shame is still powerful, but in the context of Nextdoor we just don't see our neighbors very often anymore. In many cases they might as well be random people on the other side of the country. I live in a small town and I'm quite friendly with my neighbors, but I still see and talk to them relatively rarely.
Civility and sense of decorum have greatly diminished in the past few decades especially online.
When you have a toddler it's very surprising what becomes normal. We're potty-training our son and I sometimes get texts from my spouse with a picture of a poop in a bad spot and then just the word "help."
I mean, we did that, too. But there's a bit of a gulf between a text to the spouse and posting it for 20k people you run into regularly to see.
I doubt we can solve this for other people. Each person must solve it for themselves, but for most people the solution will be joining a church and attending weekly. From there, get involved with a ministry, that will lead to appreciation dinners, which will lead to getting invited to the non-religous stuff the people are involved with.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/31/are-relig...
Somewhat a tangent response
I have a fear of crowds and bums. Not where I'm paralyzed/medicated but one thing I'm trying to do is go downtown and do street photography. I wonder how do I say no to a stranger asking me for money. Or fear of getting robbed. It's not like my camera gear is that expensive but yeah. This would push me to get out there more as I've lived in the same place for 10 yrs and I haven't really explored/gone around much. Other than when I did Uber Eats, I would go all over the place. I would get wasted/drink at bars but end up with nothing end of the day, temporary day-long friends.
Funny I was at the gym yesterday, guy said hello to me, as a guy that keeps to himself usually (unless around friends) I gave him a bad look (not on purpose) and then I responded. I'll say hello next time I see him.
Yeah for me it's just fear and lack of exposure. I do make a lot of "work friends" go on walks. But yeah real friends I think I have 4 or 5 lifelong real friends. Women nothing, haven't been laid in like 12 years pretty said to say. Unfortunately it's something I value myself like "I'm a loser by not getting laid". Even though rest of my life is good, 2BR apt, sporty car, six-fig job, but yeah. It's my social awkardness, but I lift/improve myself, cutting down on weight I want abs. Idk I'm not going after women anymore either just trying to live life now, do shit, get out of debt, get out of 9-5, mental freedom.
It's funny if it's guys I'm very "charismatic" like I can be "everyone's friend" which doesn't work out due to conflicting interest. To that end it's really about taking an active interest in the other person, engaging them, asking them questions and remembering.
My thing with women is I don't get along with them like a guy (where I don't want anything from them physically). If they're not attractive then it's easier to talk to them but yeah, I guess that comes from a desperation mindset.
Hear me out. Its not just social awkwardness. You're experiencing class boundaries and do not seem to have the right mentality to bridge the gap.
First, you call homeless people bums, which sets the stage for how you see and treat them.
I'm an excellent engineer, but I was abused and impoverished as a child, homeless as a teenager. During my 20s, I started a few companies but my savings have been continually depleted taking care of family members. I don't have a sports car or a big bank account, or nice cameras. When I see a stranger or homeless person, I smile and wave. I keep cash on me so that I always have some to give out. I buy people lunch and sit on the curb eating with them and attempting to understand them. I learn the names of my local homeless folk and ingratiate myself in the community. I've moved to a few cities so I've had the opportunity to do this a few times.
I don't do this because I lack social anxiety; I sometimes have extreme agoraphobia, to the point that I have to hype myself up for hours just to go to the grocery store, and I have to wear noise-cancelling headphones to reduce the amount of stimulation. I have PTSD. I'm an extreme introvert. A hermit at times.
But what saves me is the philosophical understanding that I have a duty to the social contract. That empathy and direct aid are nonnegotiable parts of being human. I've been homeless and I know what it's like to be truly hopeless and live a life of uncertainty, fear and hunger.
You need to bridge that gap. Class-induced anxiety is real and I acknowledge that it's probably difficult, but it's not an excuse. You sound like you're in a position to change someone's life. Taking those steps might change your own life.
> I buy people lunch and sit on the curb eating with them and attempting to understand them.
I clearly don't have the same people on the street as you do. You should not be just sitting down and having lunch with people who are having daily psychotic breaks or are otherwise aggressive. You can't have a conversation with someone who is constantly riding the line of ODing. I have a regular I see who runs around in the road screaming at cars and people.
The very incomplete "down on their luck" view of homelessness is killing progress in my city.
I have lived in many metropolitan areas and have seen the gamut of homelessness. As I mentioned in a downline comment, the trick is to ignore the people who are not in a position to receive help, and actively seek those who are in such a position. I am not suggesting walking up to random homeless folk in San Francisco who are tweaking out and hanging out with them. I am not suggesting to risk your safety by approaching the first person you see. You live in your area; study it, pay attention, and over time you'll start seeing some familiar faces. This has worked for me in New Orleans, it worked for me in Texas and worked for me in California.
So I'm willing to bet that my understanding of homelessness is more nuanced/holistic than even yours. I have been homeless. Have you?
What progress do you feel is being hindered by a collective display of compassion?
I get it, but $5 to change someone's life?
It's funny there was a moment I was at a bus station, somebody asked me for money and I dumped all the coins I had in my wallet in their hand for future bus rides. And some lady comes up to me jokingly like "you handing money out? what about me".
But yeah I think I should just give the money out, I think aside from the guy at the red light that's there almost everyday when it's warm, it's rare I encounter somebody personally. Until I go into the city.
Buy someone new clothes. A sleeping bag. Utensils. A library card or bus pass. If it has to be cash, you don't have to stop at $5. I sometimes give out tens and twenties. Obviously at a place like California your altruism can be spread pretty thin; just ignore the people who are more difficult / less appreciative. Find someone who is appreciative. Get to know them and find out what is holding them back. Maybe you can't help, maybe you can. I've had people tell me I've made their day, their week, their year.
It's that thing though I'm pretty sure I was scammed by this couple at a gas station asking me for "gas money" even though they wanted cash then the lady said "your mother raised a good boy" lmao.
To me this is a gov problem not an individual problem. Yeah if someone was dying in front of me I would try to help them. But now I gotta go to a store and buy em a tent and what not? I guess I am an asshole. Also read up "do you give money to homeless" on reddit. Almost all of the answers are no.
I have to go there and face my fear. See if I do get assaulted, I'm a 6ft buff dude so I don't think so but I'm also not a trained fighter. I just hate this fear, that normal people like living in NYC deal with on a daily basis.
Getting jumped is real though, I've been jumped before by a group.
Might as well just give the $5 though and move on with my life.
Back to women, I have negative traits as demonstrated above, indecisiveness and low self-esteem/caring about what other people think of me too much.
All this stuff is stupid, "I'm a good person because it's what people think you should do" give money to a non-taxed church, politicians, etc... then the individual person not giving a dollar to a homeless person is a bad guy.
There's risk to helping people out.
I've been fucked over plenty times, sometimes to the tune of 5 digits. Once even cost me my home, and I found myself homeless again for a while.
A good friend of mine once gave someone a ride at a gas station, and they led him to a house where another person jumped inside the car with a gun. They held him hostage, tried to force him to do fentanyl at gunpoint, and drove him around to several ATMs so he could empty out his account. They used his vehicle to sell drugs, and held him hostage in a motel room where they were also sex trafficking women. They nearly killed him, and he is lucky to be alive.
I also know others who have been jumped around here and had the shit beaten out of them. For reference, I live in a city frequently cited as a "murder capital" of the US. You have to be way more careful out here than in downtown San Francisco. As far as NYC, I imagine it's a mixed bag depending on your area. I'm not suggesting naively approaching strangers, I hope it doesn't come across that way.
You aren't an asshole if you don't buy someone a tent, I was suggesting ways to help that have more tangible impact than handing someone a $5 bill which probably just goes towards an addiction. I don't hang around Reddit, so I can't speak for the general callousness of the community, but what I'm suggesting is to go beyond the average, to do more than most would, in reverence of the fact that we're all floating on this lonely space rock together.
As far as women, all I can say is that my girlfriend would be fine with any of those traits, as long as I still maintained a level of compassion.
There is also the thought of too many people to help. Like right now there are thousands/millions of people starving is it my fault? Should I empty all of what I have to help them because I'm guilty if I don't. That's what I'm wrestling with granted what we're talking about is not the same thing. Handing somebody $5 and moving on is not that but yeah idk. I guess as a person that keeps giving shit out eg. $100K to my own family, it gets old.
But I will go out there, I'll see what happens. I need to face my fears.
I hear you. I've had ungrateful family members drive me broke. Compassion is doing the right thing, even when it's scary, or it hurts, or no one is watching, or when people around you misunderstand and demonize you, or they are just plain ungrateful and leave you holding the bag. I admire your willingness to continue grappling with it and finding your own answer.
Regarding women again, are you meeting enough of them? What's the scene like where you live? I don't know what it's like in NYC, but the social/dating scene in my current city just doesn't exist, and I'm watching some of my friends grapple with seriously heartbreaking loneliness.
I don't know what to tell them. I'm dating my high school sweetheart again, but we were broken up for several years, and many of the experiences I had with women during that time were quite traumatic. The rest of them were just not a good fit. I had completely given up on dating altogether, at least for a period of time, and only then did the love of my life find her way back to me. Despite years of extreme loneliness in new cities, I still consider myself lucky and wish I had some actionable advice I could tease from the situation. I've even experimented with building dating apps because this epidemic just scares the shit out of me.
I'm not in NYC sorry to give that impression. I was mentioning NYC as far as being densely populated, I'm in the midwest. Honestly I don't meet much women outside of work or the occasional girl I run into at a gym. I know the cliche saying "go join a club" meet girls that way. I could see that but it's also possible I like being alone too but yeah it just bothers me that my self-deemed value is whether or not I get laid.
The other problem too today is the fakeness of social media, filters on faces, photos looking like peopel go to beaches all the time/live extravagant lives.
Bars it's like a self-control issue, use drinking for courage then you get too f'd up.
In the midwest but we have a small "city" with "skyscrapers" that I wanted to go into and do photography at.
What I found after many years, is that women (people in general, really) are not attracted to people who try too hard to get attention from them. Going through great lengths tends to result in being labeled as desperate or creepy. Try just to be friendly and talk "with" them and not "to" them, almost as if you are one of them. By doing that often enough, it will feel less awkward. Practice makes perfect. And then one day you feel a click with someone. Just my few cents.
Oh you haven't gone anywhere near far enough with this.
You'll get laid the most when you adamantly pretend like you're not interested in getting laid. You actively have to act like you are "too good" for them. Play "hard to get". Learn what "negging" means.
Never, ever, show desperation for anything ever for any reason. It is the ultimate ick. Buddhists will even tell you that desire is ontologically/spiritually evil and icky.
Yeah that's the cliche saying, let them chase you or don't put on a pedestal. Idk not sure if it's because I was raised by women that I need their approval (no male figure). But I know other people who were in the same situation and aren't like me so it must be a personal choice/way you decide to overcome it.
The basic problem with this is that the ones that are trying too hard are doing so because the standard approach failed.
Maybe you get lucky, but it's not a general solution.
What is the standard approach?
I find that being genuine and vulnerable and having no hidden agenda works wonders.
For me it was the other way around. For many years I tried hard and I was wondering why it did not work.
I found it uncomfortable as a kid when I saw how my parents handled begging: ignoring it. I remember one time my father saying "that's ok". And I either say "no, sorry" or ignore.
I've heard of kids from cities being given money so they always have something to give a mugger instead of looking like you're holding out, I don't go that far but I remember it to keep perspective.
I recently made an effort to carry cash with me so I can leave tips in cash, still working on that. Would you be open to keeping singles on you to give? You can even give max of one per excursion and then decline or ignore the rest or any combination but maybe having that as a plan can help you feel comfortable. Yes you're training yourself and it's because you deserve the benefits of training.
As for non-bums hello is good, also fist bumps and nodding upwards; that stuff is cool AF and make people so damn happy.
Yeah it's funny I'll sound like I'm virtue signaling here, I donate. Food groups, NHA, stuff like that. Where I live there's usually a person at a red light waiting to "ambush" you. Same at a grocery store, soon as you exit the door solicitors going "excuse me sir".
But yeah it would be easy to just have a $5 to hand out. It's just you know how many people are there and will it stop there kind of thing. Yeah I sound like an asshole I get it. I also have sent over $100K to my own family in support and I'm -$80K in debt so it's not like I'm hoarding my money or something.
It just annoys me. But sure it'll be easier to just say "here you go" and hand out cash.
In my experience a few times people will ask for money if they see you giving someone else something, but not that often, and you can shrug through it and say that was your last dollar or something. Keep the interactions short and easy and try to carry the loose bills outside of your wallet so no one can actually see how much you have inside it?
Exactly one time after I did this, a guy asked me to send something to his venmo since I really only had a dollar. Probably my strangest interaction.
Yeah I'll probably be smart and just empty my wallet except ID and some loose cash. I just don't like it the idea someone coming up to you asking you for money and you're expected to just do it, give it to them. It's funny too as soon as they get what they want or don't get what they want, they're like f you and move on. Ahh well I just wish I didn't care. I'm too soft/care what other people think of me.
It's like points on a website "oh no I got downvoted", there's a thing as being you/not being a conformist
I think I purposefully need to get into a fight you know overcome it, like expect anyone who comes up to me to fight me
I'm gonna stop ranting but it's not like it's hard to get laid, it's just my standards are high like she's gotta be a dime or fit at least. So that means I also have to be fit/good looking which I haven't cared much before as far as good haircut/good clothes. I at least am lucky with my genetics for fitness but I also have not been as cut as I could be. But ultimately I know it's my mind that's f'd.
You don't sound like an asshole because you aren't saying bad things about the people who have the least.
It's up to you, you can just, to yourself, write down the words you'll use to write down that you'll ignore them to become more comfortable with your boundaries.
Personally I don't think handing out cash is helpful so it's not about charity it's my advice to pre-plan how you'll respond to be more comfortable than you are in reaction to these situations.
It is a quick escape though to be like "here you go" and move on but also opens you up to "that's it?" I've had that happen even when I said "I don't have cash" well I have Venmo I'm like alright... yeah I don't want to have this mindset but also can't be naive too kumbaya.
You have the right but not the obligation to give. The person asking has heard a lot more no's than you could stomache, so one more won't kill them.
Having kids (with the right partner and good intentions as a parent) is a great way to avoid feeling lonely.
The kid(s) are tremendous source of connection. You may trade for a feeling of exhaustion, overwhelming responsibility, etc. but a lot less loneliness.
Also go a step further and join support groups for parents. Community resources where kids play and parents can hang out and chat. Connection is built through shared experiences, and parenting is an experience you can share with other parents.
Between having kids and participating in events with other parents, there will be a lot less opportunities to feel lonely.
I think you’ve missed a step here. How are lonely and alone people, who have trouble finding friends, supposed to find a spouse and have kids?
That's only a problem for people who want to find a spouse and have kids. You're going one step further down the "how" chain.
My point had more to do with the fact that a lot of people are either undecided about kids or have decided not to have kids, and are then struggling with loneliness.
Deciding you want to start a family and prioritizing it (the why) can come before the how.
I'm no expert in dating, but generally in life I've learned that it's easier to get my wants satisfied if I am clear about them.
"I want to start a family and find a partner who also wants to have kids" is a lot less abstract than "I want to feel less lonely".
So, no, I don't think I missed a step. I just think that the best way to find a partner in parenting will depend a lot on the specific person, where they are, how old they are, what they do, etc and isn't conducive to general advice, and maybe HN is not the best place to figure it out?
I’m loving the comments here. But I confess I exoected a ‘social technology’ solution to the problem!! Like “casserole” in the UK, which connects people in a neighbourhood with others who need food and a visit. You make a casserole and take it round. I’ve not seen this in person but it seems like a great application of tech to help ward off loneliness… You could easily extend this to “dog friends” or “cat friends”, where you’re connected with someone who’d like you to visit them and bring your dog or cat for an introduction and a pat
I remember watching old American educational videos for teens from something like the 50s (on YT). They talk A LOT about how to be likable and how much work one has to put into being accepted and included. The tone is very much "if you want friends and not be excluded (and being excluded is your own moral failing) you need to work on it".
I feel people have forgotten that. Having friends isn't easy. You do actually need to put in the effort - everyone needs to put in the effort, not just "the extrovert" that "adopts" you. And not just effort, it takes *SKILLS* that you need to actively develop and maintain.
So now we have generations where no one really thought us the skills or instilled the value of "it's a YOU problem". Everyone is just waiting for someone else to do the hard work. Even more stupidly, people might be lonely, but they are also very picky and if the person isn't exactly what they are feeling at the moment they flake/don't engage. And then they are surprised they don't have a surplus of friends when they need them.
So how do we resolve this? By telling people it's their our damn problem and fault. And no, I'm not saying ignore it on a societal level, I'm saying that the public policy to fix this is to start educating people that social engagement requires effort and skills. Maybe take those old American movies as inspiration (naturally remove all the sexist and racist bullshit).
I'm starting to host bi-weekly after work soirees.
It's simple. Anyone you meet casually and get a nice vibe from - just invite them - you will see their face light up like they won a lottery...cause they did - your lottery.
Tell them that you're hosting a special gathering with interesting people you've recently met ( that way everyone starts from 0 )
bonus points: Make sure that your list is as balanced as possible with as many different types of humans ( age/gender/race/education/talent/interests ) add your weights into any criteria as you see fit, but keep in mind the more the blend the spicier the magic and the more you will grow.
If they want to bring a special friend ( great! but just say one for now ) Lubricate with some light wine/beers/alcoholic beverages (dont worry most will bring their own ) .. add some nice chill-house ambient music .. and let the magic begin.
Become the change you seek, it's intoxicating.
I'll say the same thing that I always do. For some reason, it's not popular, hereabouts, but it's worked for me, for over 45 years.
Get involved with volunteer/gratis work. Join an advocacy/charity group. Do stuff for free.
HN members have really valuable skills that can make an enormous difference.
Joining a volunteer organization brings together passionate, action-minded people that already share a common platform.
It can also teach us a lot. My personal career was significantly helped by what I learned, doing volunteer work.
Boom. Loneliness problem solved.
Maybe dumb question but how does one "join a volunteer organization?" I tried a long time ago but got ghosted.
Not a dumb question.
Depends on the org.
Many large orgs have smaller chapters locally, but there are often regionally-relevant ones.
I’d start with personal passions, and work from there. It won’t really work, unless it’s something we care about.
Volunteer orgs tend to be fairly disorganized, and there’s usually a lot of lively personalities. If one seems too dysfunctional, try another. Don’t just go for one.
Also, it can take some time to get into the “inner circle.” Like any human society, trust takes time to build. We need to be willing to start small. Get to know the place. Figure out where we can make a difference.
I’ll bet that ChatGPT would be a great source of information.
Phrases like "I’d start with personal passions, and work from there" and "we need to be willing to start small" are NOT actionable, they are meaningless platitudes. Not to mention it assumes everyone has "personal passions," an the majority of people probably don't.
I didn't "just go for one." I spent like a month trying to volunteer , for anyone. I was on medical leave from work at time time so I had plenty of time to give. Nobody ever got back to me or picked up the phone. It was worse than applying for a job. I have an anxiety disorder, so even reaching out caused me massive stress and anxiety. So I caused myself distress to feel more worthless than I already felt. My heart is racing and I'm on the verge of tears just typing this up.
So I'll ask again, how does one "join a volunteer organization?"
Do you live in a metropolitan area, and if so, which? I know a number of places one can volunteer where I live, but if you are on the other side of the country, that wouldn't be much help.
Given that you have an anxiety disorder, you might look into volunteering with animal shelters--dogs are said to be calming.
Or, just walk into the vestibule of a church. In many cases there will be a bulletin board with a notice of volunteer opportunities, or a Sunday bulletin with the same. Note that this does not imply any religious commitment. Nobody's going to ask for your baptismal certificate if you're volunteering to sling hash for a dinner program.
I don't live in a metropolitan area, which is probably part of the problem. I'm not rural either.
The local animal rescues around here all ghosted me back then. I also fucking hate dogs with a passion (dirty, noisy, annoying, infuriatingly needy) but I do love cats.
I never thought about looking at a church bulletin, so thank you for that suggestion at least.
I am not the person that "ghosted" you, and don't think that I can give you what you want.
The suggestion I gave, was in good faith, but it seems that your "question" was not. I am truly sorry that you had a bad experience, but I wasn't the one that did the nasty.
Have a great day!
>The suggestion I gave, was in good faith, but it seems that your "question" was not.
My question was absolutely asked in good faith, not sure why you think it wasn't? You, yourself, made it sound very easy. I was looking for advice since you've made it sound like you've easily succeeded in volunteering and I wasn't able to. I was hoping, at the very least, for you to share how you got started.
And yeah, it's kinda offensive to get "draw the rest of the damn owl[ed]"[1] when you put yourself out there to genuinely ask for help.
And I still am asking for advice if you're willing to share. I would still love to volunteer.
[1] https://teachreal.wordpress.com/2025/01/25/now-draw-the-owl/
Maybe our built environment shouldn't consist solely of isolated houses in isolated gated communities where we drive our kids and sit in isolated cars in the school dropoff/pickup lines.
This may just be me, but I hold the opposite view.
When I lived in a rural area with a few acres of property, I was much more social and engaged with my community.
Now I live at the edge of the city in a medium-high density townhouse area with no private outdoor space. Since I can never really get away from people and be alone, I also have no desire to go out and do things and engage with the community.
I think the variability is nice. If I can get home, relax, not have people around, have some private outdoor space, then I can recharge and have the energy to engage more.
I don't think it's as simple as urban vs rural.
You can have a small town with a nice downtown or park where people meet and hang out. You can have walkable neighborhoods without giant apartment buildings. Neighborhoods where kids ride around on bikes.
That's different than a suburb full of isolated gated communities where each house technically has a yard but you still don't have any privacy and the HOA tells you what color to paint your house and fines you for your grass not being perfectly green all year.
You can also have dense areas without green space, full of cars and noise, and without nice places to hang out with friends.
Dense cities have the same problem or worse. There are even college towns with apartments where nobody talks to each other.
Cities can and often are poorly designed for humans.
Building human-centric places isn’t only about density. Variety of density is good. Places where people can walk, ride bikes, and hang out with friends and family are good.
Congested 6-lane roads aren’t good, whether in cities, suburbs, or rural areas in between.
Yeah so you can give them all that, but if it's mainly inhabited by single "professionals" and couples with dogs, it can still be antisocial. At least that was my experience in grad school housing and living after in college towns. We had walking/biking centric layout, communal gyms and hot tubs, everything.
I'm not lonely, but occasionally wish I had some meaningful friendships. Most people who want to be my "friend" just want something from me -- a job, help them move, buy their dumb products, watch their kids, drive them to the airport, whatever else they want to dump on me.
I get that comes with friendships, but people go from zero to super favors in 2.1 seconds these days. Seems too burdensome, so I typically tell people to F off -- easier that way.
My wife will drag me to some social events. I have a hard time relating to any of the guys. The ones I meet are all obsessed with sports and entertainment. Did you watch the game? No, oh...well; did you go skiing last week? No, Oh...I gotta go.
I like a good football game, but the world is burning; I can't pretend it isn't. I'd like to help but don't know how. I just work on building my business to have enough resources to possibly make a slight difference; maybe I'll die without actually doing so, and it would have been better to just distract myself until I die, but my brain doesn't work that way.
Social media is just one big psyops. I liked X until major players started taking over and now it seems like Claude owns X as everyone just posts how Claude Code just vibe coding them 4,000 bitcoins in 24 hours. Quit all social media because it's just distorted.
To be honest, gave up on being friends with anyone about 10 years ago.
Damn. There are some things here that resonated with me and some that don’t. I had a time of my life where I just felt like I didn’t vibe with my ex’s friends. We’d go to parties and these people would feel so shallow. Having grown up poor around a bunch of perpetually rich people made me feel different.
You also said that the world is burning, and it is to some defree. But it’s also filled with so many kind and amazing people making an impact where they are. Sure, maybe the gal serving coffee isn’t fixing climate change but she’s making the person she’s talking to that day feel special. That’s important too. Same goes down the soccer coach who’s helping kids find passion in something.
The world is full of contradictions and imperfections. It’s also full of kindness and generosity everywhere you go, if you’re looking for it. If you’re looking for ways to validate that the world is burning, your gonna find those too
Social media blows, I hate it too. I’m not entirely sure society is moving in the right direction, but I’m just an atom in the ocean. I can affect those around me and hopefully those people affect more. My hope is that my joy spreads through other people, and if it doesn’t, that’s ok too.
I’m bummed you’re hurting, and with a job and a million responsibilities it can be hard to lift your gaze to see the forest for the trees
Thanks for the reply. I've accepted reality, so not really hurting.
I've got a wife, kids, 2 dogs, and more work than I can possibly do. I have plenty to do, but I lean toward Nihilistic thoughts like what is the point of all of this. I'm religious and have faith that my life has meaning, but sometimes it's hard to see it.
Personally, I've found the most effective way to cope is just to accept things as they are and keep myself busy. The world is constantly saying that happiness is right around the corner if you are just smarter, richer, or better looking. Realizing that it's not true and finding contentment is the way to go.
Your experiences are fine but don't completely give up and focus on what you can control. Like you can post your thoughts on social media. And don't expect views. Just just write for your own sake.
That would keep you busy and leave room for serendipity.
My sense: human relationships come from repeated interaction over time. This is why college is easy for friendships and suburbs aren't.
The solution is very different for someone who is within walking distance of a neighborhood coffee shop vs someone who isn't.
It seems like there's 3 levels of solutions recommended here:
1) Individual: join recurring activities, volunteer, join communities, get a dog, work on yourself, sports/physical hobbies
2) Founder: Create third spaces, host events, or just create and initiate activities that bring people together
3) Policy: Urban design reform, third spaces. Make it easier for more third spaces to exist and more walkable neighborhoods.
It's like capex vs opex. A lot of the fixes recommended here are very high ongoing daily effort for individuals. But this is such an important thing for humans! So it would be better if the built environment was better, and human interaction was easier and lower effort to get for more people. More walkable high trust places, more third places.
Should there be lots more affinity based master planned communities? Probably yes. More in person theme parks and activity places? Probably yes. More games like Pokemon Go? Probably yes. Better walkability in existing cities? Probably yes. etc.
tl;dr at an individual level, these suggestions are good, but the fact that so much individual level effort is needed imo points to more of a need for macro solutions so it's lower energy for most people to have nice local walkable communities and friends (like people have in university, cities post-university, and in retirement homes)
Everyone always gets the causality reversed. Social media didn't cause the epidemic, it filled a niche to help cure the epidemic. People were lonely long before the internet arrived, the internet just made it easier for those lonely people to connect to each other. And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.
In other words, the problem is structural. Moving to a new city where you don't know anyone, only work with people for a few years, and where there are no longer institutions like the church, how is anybody supposed to meet anyone? Meetups? Half the people can't even afford a car.
There is no solution other than meeting a lifelong partner.
> how is anybody supposed to meet anyone?
It used to be that you knocked on the door of the residence beside you.
> And now many of them prefer the internet over socializing with people they don't care for that much in person.
This is the crux of it. Your neighbours weren't ever likely to be your soulmate, but that is who was there to befriend, so you did. But now you don't have to. And since they now feel the same way, they aren't putting in the effort either.
There is also the problem of familiarity. It's awkward.
Traditionally you'd live around the same people your whole life. Invariably they'd feel like family and it wouldn't feel awkward to get together. But that's not how modernity works. People move to different communities all the time, so it becomes difficult to build familial friendships with others.
That's the essential problem. The internet allows us to stay in touch with people who feel like family. That's what we want to do psychologically. If all those people were in the same city there'd be a lot more socializing.
> People move to different communities all the time
Although now considerably less than in the past. Peak mobility occurred during the mid-1900s. Most, and increasingly more as time marches forward, will stay close to where they were born.
> That's the essential problem.
It is a problem for individuals in that situation, but does it explain a population-wide epidemic when most never actually leave their familial roots?
> If all those people were in the same city there'd be a lot more socializing.
I am among those who still live near where I was born and have known a lot of the people my whole life. Color me skeptical. Nobody has the time to. They're at work all day and when that's done it is into the car to drive their kid to who knows where to play in a sporting match thinking they are going to become a professional some day.
It was a little different 15-20 years ago. You used to be able to go down to the community centre on a Saturday night and the whole town would be there, ready to mingle. But it turns out the draw was really alcohol, and when police started cracking down on drunk drivers and health concern messaging started to gain attention, it all dwindled pretty quickly.
It's all about priorities, and socializing just isn't a priority for most people anymore. There are so many other things also vying for attention.
I agree. When I say people lived in close proximity I don't mean 'across the city' or 'the next town over', I mean that traditionally you were actually in the same physical location where socializing required essentially no travel, and you'd often have to exist in communal spaces.
These days even people who are nearby are still far. That 30 minute drive both ways along with coordinating a time is a lot of extra work to add onto an already busy life.
But if these same people lived on your street you could just pop over for a quick coffee. As is what actually happens. My wife and I have socialized with new friends in our neighborhood more than close family lately because they're right around us. The kicker is we built the friendships through our kids school and repeated proximity rather than artificially.
Yes of course people were lonely before the internet and social media, but that pushed them to go outside and solve the problem. Now they do the digital equivalent of taking drugs to make the problem go away.
I think you're oversimplifying and overgeneralizing. Plenty of people remained lonely back in the day, plenty of people socialize now. It's just that now they have the option to socialize through the internet.
Prior to the internet people were staying home and watching TV. The dynamic is much longer lived than you think. Check out the book 'Bowling Alone'.
The wording sounds like this is a problem or even something to solve. Why?
But let's start with the basics: - Why are these people not countable? Shoudn't we not at least just be able to get a good statistical number on this? We do the same for all people on (and off) this planet. - Let's assume we have a number: how to we know that they sit and are alone and every day? This sounds to me like an overspecific approach. - Why would anyone join local groups? You normally can't find people you want to interact with within a specific range, that's the great thing about social media or the internet overall: you don't need to be in a geographic range.
And the last one: what are you trying to solve here?
When you have large, strong, healthy families, these tend to be hubs for others. They can serve as warm hubs for others to gather around.
When these are gone, loneliness epidemics follow.
Third places. Become a regular at game night, church (if you're into that), join a bowling league, join organized dinners through meetup.com or whatever the modern version is, take up martial arts, take adult education classes outside your existing interests. There are more options out there than ever before.
Read "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feinman" and really absorb the part where he explains how he had so many crazy adventures and encounters.
In the USA, the loneliness epidemic is compounded by isolation. A large portion of our society has moved into suburban communities that are largely impersonal. There is very little in the way of in-person community outside of churches or political movements that only certain kinds of people want to be involved with.
With the Internet giving us the ability to interact with our chosen niche with little effort, we are willing to accept this still-impersonal alternative to our stagnant communities.
I have found that, as a city-dweller, I benefit from separating myself from social media and going out into the world looking for more personal connections, but this is somewhat of a privilege afforded to those people who live in more densely populated areas. Even then, my distance from social media can sometimes be a handicap when you interact with people who are still reliant on it to coordinate everything.
For most people, the social opportunities that existed in the 70's through the 90's simply doesn't exist anymore. If you aren't using social media, you're practically being anti-social, but there is something inherently anti-social about social media to begin with, so you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't.
> the social opportunities that existed in the 70's through the 90's simply doesn't exist anymore
Does it have to be that way?
Is there a way to bring back "the social outdoors" of those days? To recreate it?
The US is structured to promote loneliness.
If you want to fix it:
- More free public spaces (parks with benches, squares)
- More free public events and activities (free concerts, art installations, plays)
- Greater physical proximity (it's hard to make eye contact if everyone drives)
- Wealth distribution (create a society where one's value is not based on their net worth)
- Encourage days off for community service
In other words, provide socially-funded incentives for people to be close to one another physically and remove income as a measure of value.
Seen some of this happening in Melbourne, Australia, and it's almost suffering from too much success. Recently a free concert had to be canceled because tens of thousands of people showed up and they couldn't handle the numbers safely.
Very happy to see at least something is being tried to reverse the damage from covid.
Shame, Amyl and the Sniffers would've put on a hell of a show ;)
I agree though, Melbourne is absolutely bursting at the seam with events, groups and activities in almost anything you could possibly be interested in. It's particularly noticeable for me coming from Sydney. I saw someone in a local FB group suggest holding a whip-cracking jam meetup in a park and it generated significant interest.
The US is not lacking in public spaces, events and activities, or rec centres. The "loneliness epidemic" is a fairly modern phenomenon. Cities weren't structurally much different several decades ago, but now people choose not to leave the house, because they can amuse themselves to death there.
Unionize! Unionize! Unionize!
So much of the pressure comes from horrendous working conditions from top to bottom.
And as a secondary effect unions require meetings and hopefully cross organising with other unions having different people in them.
When we get better working conditions, we will have more time to meet other people rather than to sit exhausted with our phones having all the parasocial relationships that drain our social batteries without really connecting with a real person.
Before people in this country can unionize, they have to see their peers and fellows, not as strangers. The structures in this country have put each person against the other in pursuit of wealth.
Sorry, wrong diagnosis in my opinion.
There's not a loneliness epidemic, there's a selfishness epidemic. Nobody does anything for anyone anymore (unless there's money involved, of course).
That's the reason people is alone, avoids having kids or dealing with other people's stuff that could disrupt their overly comfortable western way of life.
Even people that's not that selfish is operating in that environment.
Sorry but this makes no sense. Socializing is not an act of kindness, generally - people mostly do it because they want to. And people have always been selfish.
And people have always been alone, now we're discussing this in the context of an "epidemic".
When I think of times in which I've made friends, it usually has to do with being in a group of similar-ish peers for an extended period of time, ideally with a shared goal. School is the obvious example, but work can be too if your coworkers are similar enough.
I've often wanted something of a service that produces something similar: creating groups of people that commit to spending time together on some task or activity. E.g. people who are into sports commit to meet up N times to go watch their local team, or people who love animals can volunteer at an animal shelter weekly for a couple of months.
The 'tech' part of this probably comes from: 1) matching people well to groups, like considering age, personality, politics, location, interests, etc to try to create a good fit. and 2) making it much easier for them to participate in activities, like by automatically booking tickets for events, etc.
Obviously there would be challenges. How do you prevent people from flaking or bailing? How do you handle groups where one person is clearly a bad apple?
Social media and on demand media hijack the emotional triggers that would usually be resolved by talking to people. Some examples:
* In line at the BMV, bored and feeling lonely. Should resolve loneliness by talking to strangers in line... mostly chit-chat, but sometimes you make a friend! Social media turns this into doom scrolling.
* Sitting in the living room by yourself, feeling a little lonely. Should result in calling up a friend or relative, or heading to get a coffee/beer where you can interact with people. On demand media turns this into low risk watching shows (yes, old school TV was an option, but on demand, there's always something on that is interesting).
So the trick is to make yourself ask if you should give someone a call or go somewhere public when you are pulling out the phone with intent to scroll or watch a show. When you find something you are interested in because you are watching lots of videos about it, or replying on forums, force yourself to engage in the real world. If you are arguing politics, find a group advocating your position and get involved (I've got to meet three majority leaders and two Presidents, plus a bunch of congresspeople you see on the news all the time as a side effect of getting involved because I was pissed off on the internet about business taxation issues). If you find a hobby, find a local group that does that. Learning to play the guitar from YouTube was fun, but jamming with other musicians? Off the charts fun and far more educational that just playing along with videos.
Finally, and this is the big one, try to never eat meals alone. Never say no to going to lunch with coworkers. Join stuff that meets for breakfast. Dinners are hard, but it's surprising what happens when you invite a couple people over for dinner and a beer once in a while.
Make Single Room Occupancy (SRO) housing legal again.
Having barely room for little more than a bed forces you to get out during the day. Stuff happens when your default for where to spend your time is not at "home". SRO halls also usually had more room for common spaces to meet and socialize with other people in a similar position in life, and of course, SRO is a very cheap housing option.
have you ever lived in one?
I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years after university and had similar levels of personal space. While I definitely would not want to live on a kibbutz for my whole life, there were very significant downsides (internal politics), I made some lifelong friends there and overall consider that experience to have been very positive, in particular for my social life.
that's not comparable to SRO in the city, where you'd be sharing living space with far more diverse and vibrant characters. no one in their sane mind would choose to live in one of those, unless they were on the brink of homelessness.
Oh we definitely had diverse and vibrant characters, and that was part of what made living there fun. I also find it strange that in a page about solutions to loneliness, you reject one that, by your own admission, would introduce someone lonely to a wide variety of new people.
But if you're trying to use it as a euphemism for drug addicts, I think you'll often find that they end up homeless, despite there being SROs, because they spend their SRO rent on drugs instead, and they get evicted. If you're trying to use a euphemism for sex workers, the successful SROs usually had strict rules around the Single Resident part.
Basically it's just like hotels, in the sense that there are both seedy, run-down, crummy hotels and there are upscale hotels. That there are some crummy hotels is not an indictment of hotels in general. If you make the category legal, you will find worse and better examples, and lonely people would have their choice of establishment that would help put them back into close proximity with others.
>I also find it strange that in a page about solutions to loneliness, you reject one that, by your own admission, would introduce someone lonely to a wide variety of new people.
I don't see how sharing the bathroom and the kitchen with alcoholics, drug addicts, ex-cons, and mentally ill could possibly alleviate one's loneliness. and trust me, even a few of those per floor are enough to make living there an unpleasant experience.
you picture SRO as some kind of hippie commune thing. it's not. again: no one in their sane mind actively chooses to live in such inhumane conditions. it is utterly bizarre to me that someone would romanticize sharing a toilet with fifty other people.
Like I said, if SROs are legal, you will get better and worse examples. Certainly a lot of people lived in university dormitories which are not, of course, filled with the dregs of society. Is there a market for an SRO hall filled with young Congressional staffers in Washington DC? Or one on Wall Street for young entry-level folk working in investment banks pulling 16 hour days in their first couple of years? Almost certainly. You keep out the dregs of society the same as anywhere else: you charge more than the cheapest places and ask people to sign a strict behavioral code where violations result in quick eviction.
And you share a toilet with a hundred other people in your workplace. So what? SRO rent pays for cleaning staff for common areas.
We need weekly activity plans to introduce multi-racial, multi-age, multi-political people to each other in palaces for the people venues.
Read the book 'Palaces for the People'... Invest Billions in social infrastructure... and run the country like it was a retirement community. Everyone is welcome, everyone has value and we need to learn (with practice) how to love each other again.
I'm wondering if there are any research groups led by sociologist that explore this topic which may be helped by a group of volunteer ?
I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?
We also forget that communities are essentially what allowed this escape in the first place ; I remember going to psytrance festivals but there are so many more escapes : theater, cinema groups, even in tech you have meetings for rust, programming languages and what not
There is definitely some kind of knowledge around being active in life ; and on that point I do not think that working count as active (I'm myself a workaholic so i'm definitely not the best example here)
There are other drivers for isolation than not knowing how to integrate though - it's not always easy to find people who share those common interest or mindset.
It's a very polarized time period which only exaggerate this - the best way to fight it off is to literally do something meaningless with people (eg : play)
> I've always wondered why applications like Tinder etc... have not been completely destroyed by open-source already ?
Same reason why Signal hasn't mogged WhatsApp, Telegram, Messenger, etc. Social apps have enormous network effects, and companies with large marketing budgets and early movers have big advantages when it comes to establishing a community.
The hard part of Tinder is not the software. It's marketing, moderation, balancing the needs of different users, etc. Something that makes the platform shitty for one type of user makes it more desirable for another.
I've had a great time at board game meetups. I highly recommend finding a group of people who play modern board games once a week. There should be at least one in most towns or cities. It can take a while to find the right group, but once you do, you can make some lifelong friends just by turning up every week. I've had some great experiences and a few not as great ones around the world and at various times. My favorites ones always involve food and alcohol in a nice bar or pub, usually starting with some casual or social deduction games. I now have a pretty huge collection of board games. I just moved to a new town though and it's pretty small so I need to be a bit more proactive. Haven't played a lot recently.
Confession... I don't actually like board games all that much, and I don't really care if I win. Some of the games are really cool but I just love hanging out and having fun with a group of people.
In my opinion, it's entirely possible to build a social network or social media that doesn't incentivize rage but one that leads to actual friendships. I don't think internet itself is the issue, I think that the existing options just maximize outrage/drama and other negative addictive qualities rather than the slow-burn good things.
I'm also in this group, so I have a few theories as to what causes it and how to fix it.
For one thing, I was severely traumatized as a kid, which delayed a lot of my social skills. I'm catching up but not all the way there yet. When my social battery is full, I can do pretty well, but if I'm even a little down, it's basically impossible to act normally.
I also had it hammered into me as a kid that nobody wants me around, nobody could ever love me, I'm a failure, a burden, a creep, a weirdo, and nothing but a bothersome nuisance that nobody would ever want to spend 30 seconds alone with. I'm trying to reject these thoughts, but it's difficult when you have nobody to talk to. It's like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I wonder how many people have the same issue. I've made a few friends in person, but I rarely get to see them.
Well I've started doing public surveys in my nearby big city, and documenting the results. I just hold out a posterboard that says "how alone do you feel"[1] or "have you ever been in love" etc, and hold out a marker, and people come up and take the survey. At first I did this out of sheer loneliness and boredom. But I have done it for enough months that some people have come up to me and told me that I've helped them, or that they look forward to my signs.
I'm trying to reach those people who feel the way I feel have no way of connecting with anyone, or at least feel that they don't. Do you have any new ideas of how to achieve this?
[1] https://chicagosignguy.com/blog/how-alone-do-you-feel.html
I've posted this thought a few times in different ways, but in my experience, community is found and then built.
Regularly sharing space with others is the way to start finding community. I think your surveying is an example of that. The next step is when the interactions begin taking place outside of the regular time/place, as evidenced by your epilogue.
What I haven't posted before is anything about how to successfully create those connections. Maybe we get lucky and someone will share our taste in music or movies or what have you, and the connection will be almost effortless. But to increase the rate of connection, I've found that learning to ask good questions is key.
We can learn a lot from popular interviewers like Terry Gross, Johnny Carson, or James Lipton. But to provide some direct tips: Lead with open-ended questions (i.e. not "yes or no"). Ask follow-up questions. Share a little bit while asking questions (e.g. "I'm not really into X music, more Y. Where would I start if I wanted to listen to X?")
Of course, sometimes friendships just aren't meant to be. It's tough, and can feel like a waste of time to have made the connection, but I've been surprised multiple times when a conversation that seemed like a slog of a one-off led to fruitful friendships later.
That's one thing I've found about trying to meet new people. Try and find something they want to talk about, and the floodgates will often open.
After my dad died from cancer in 2018, I saw first hand the resulting loneliness and the lack of resources available. Being an engineer, I figured I might as well try to solve it, at least for some people. In 2020, I started a non-profit for small support groups[0]. We're small, and I've been mostly funding it myself, but it's growing. The main issue is we don't have the resources to cover every topic, so it's not for everyone (yet). Happy to chat if you have feedback, email is in my profile.
Everything we do is open source too[1].
[0]: https://www.totem.org/ [1]: https://github.com/totem-technologies/totem-server
Traumatic childhood almost always messes with how one attaches with people. A small exceptional fraction somehow manage to remain unaffected.
When attachment styles get warped, behaviors that were a self protective behavior in childhood, become self-defeating behaviors in adult life. The person is quite oblivious to all this because those behaviors and fragile modes of attachment feel perfectly normal -- it is like growing up in a different g (acceleration due to gravity).
It feels like - I am right, it's the others who are wrong, unfair, greedy, needy, flakey, stupid.
For me this book [0] was very helpful for understanding what's going on in and around me
[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9547888-attached
> I'm catching up but not all the way there yet.
The only thing you have to catch up on is that there is nothing to catch up on. Everyone is at some stage of growth. No one is ever done growing.
I am impressed by your surveys. You're being open and engaging the world. That's awesome. Now hearing your story, I'd be happy to engage you or even buy you a coffee to hear the results.
Yet if I saw you on the street with a sign, I would likely hustle past. I've lived too long in big cities, and I've developed a crusty shell. So if I pass you by and ignore you, I apologize. I am the one with the problem. :-)
I like this poster thing. Anything that gives people a little connection to those around them.
I sometimes sit on my front step and play guitar. 9/10 people ignore me but usually I'll have one or two nice conversations with a neighbor, and have made a couple friends this way. It helps that I live in a dense walkable place with lots of people who are similar to me.
I've done sidewalk art with my kid. Between Spring and Fall last year, I'd make a new drawing every time it rained. Rarely was there a day without chalk on my sidewalk.
I did it to play with my kid (and learn a little Japanese by writing the title in kanji), but another outcome was talking to neighbors. I keep to myself and have been told I'm difficult to approach, but people often come up and compliment the drawings. One lady said that, when walking with her granddaughter, she makes sure to see what's new on my sidewalk. It's been a very "low risk" way to put myself out there. I draw without anyone looking, and chatty people come to me while I'm in the yard.
Wondering if your results are skewed towards people who are outside and therefore have a higher probability of not being lonely by virtue of them being amongst people.
Definitely, yes. But I figure, the people I'm trying to reach are basically only ever outside when they're talking to the grocery store and back. That's the only time to catch them, if ever. So this is my only shot. I do stand right across the street from the Walgreens too, so I definitely know that I've seen people going there for something quick and back. And many of them pass me regularly, every week. Some of them have stopped and met me and have become "regulars" so to speak, but others have never even made eye contact with me, though I recognize them now. This is of course out of thousands of people, and only on one consistent street corner in Chicago. But we have to start somewhere.
Thanks for sharing.
Your website made me smile…it is a fun one for sure.
Thanks. I've been considering potentially starting a non-profit that accepts donations, to be able to afford to do this more often.
Helping people like you are seems like an amazing start. Maybe try to get a pyramid structure going where you teach people to help other people and then they teach people and then it’s a movement? But at all times a low level of effort so there is no pressure other than just holding up a sign or a marker.
I’ve found the hardest thing is breaking the ice and the sign / marker normalises a low stakes interaction where one participant can walk away at any time
I've thought a lot about this since you wrote it. I do wonder if this could become a pyramid activity.
One problem is that it has to be people who are relatively comfortable talking to strangers, which by definition excludes the main people I'm trying to reach.
That said, I wonder if there's a middle ground. Maybe people like myself, who feel unfulfilled, but don't have too much difficulty talking to strangers, could be the ones who hold the signs. And we could help those people get to the point we're at... it could work.
Good points.
Maybe something like making two person teams of a non-talker and talker?
Non-talker is getting trained to be a talker while the talker is doing the recruiting?
Non-talker holds sign / hands out writing implement. Talker talks.
Everyone slowly moves up the chain?
I think teaching people so that they can teach others is a necessity. I've fond that the most effective meetups are the ones where people have a shared sense of ownership, which includes being welcoming to people who are new. One board game group I am a part of ran for 2 years without an official host for this reason.
100% agree! Teaching others to teach helps broaden their perspective/ world as well. Everyone wins
Hey, I love you.
Since I was a small child, my grandfather used to beat me savagely and shake me and pin me to the ground, screaming that the devil was inside of me and that I would never be capable of loving or being loved. This was literally beaten into me. He'd beat me with the buckle end of the belt, like a whip, hitting my face, arms, whatever he could. He'd keep beating me until I couldn't cry anymore, telling me that men are not supposed to cry, and that it was his responsibility to teach me not to cry. I flashback at least once a day to it.
But, he was wrong. I love a lot. So much that sometimes it's unbearable. I cry all the time. Sometimes out of pure love for someone. And there are people who I think love me. Of course the doubt is permanently sewn in. But my heart goes out to you, seriously. I love you just for existing and being yourself, and I hope you're okay. We're not alone. Email's in my bio if you ever want to talk.
I just want to say thanks for sharing your burden and how you were able to overcome it so others can be inspired.
I feel like nowadays people are really encouraged to never display any vulnerability. It goes totally against the hype and hustle culture of the attention economy. To do that so candidly takes a lot of courage and confidence, and that's really impressive.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm glad you're doing well. And if that doubt ever seeps into your thoughts, remember they were full of shit and you're absolutely capable of loving and being loved.
I appreciate the sentiment, but knowing that it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality except for the one thing we have somewhat in common, means that your comment is to me merely a representation of you and what you stand for. Which is great and beautiful, but it doesn't cross the bridge of being a meaningful comment on my end.
That's actually the exact problem I'm facing, so it's incredibly relevant.
A year ago, I was talking to the local Catholic priest (I was donating some religious statues that I had effectively inherited), and it came up in conversation that I was going through a rough time. He went in for a hug, and it felt so absolutely empty and disingenuous. I accepted it merely to avoid a scene, but it was absolutely not welcome or meaningful.
When I'm out in the city, I want to reach out to those people who put that they feel "100%" alone just like I do. I wrote in the article some of my thoughts and feelings on this, and some things I tried and didn't try.
But ultimately, that's the gap I want to bridge now. We have a thing in common. How do we go from there? (Not you and me, but me and a stranger who has the same problem as me that they want to solve.) What do I say next? What's the next thing we can do in that interaction, or maybe a later one if I ever see them again? This is my question to myself, what I'm wondering in this whole post.
> it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality except for the one thing we have somewhat in common, means that your comment is to me merely a representation of you and what you stand for. Which is great and beautiful, but it doesn't cross the bridge of being a meaningful comment on my end.
Man, well said. People who "over engage" are doing it out of a sense of kindness, but you're right that it feels hollow and is really just about them.
I think the solution to this is basically what you're doing. Build small connections via whatever engagement mechanism you can and let them organically grow into meaningful ones. Jumping from zero to pretending you have a meaningful connection is exactly why those gestures feel hollow. There is no shortcut, it takes time.
Sounds like you're making those initial connections with your signs, which I think is great.
I can assure you that there was nothing performative or hollow about my comment. OP said something that resonated with me, and so I shared my story in an attempt to bridge and find commonalities.
It's possible you are just projecting biases onto my comment. I'm not sure what "over-engaging" is, but you're free to ignore my comment if you feel that it was too personal or too long. I don't however, understand the contempt, or insinuations that I am attempting to take some kind of shortcut with personal connection.
You can connect quickly with strangers if both parties are receptive. And as I just mentioned to OP, I have made life-long friends from this site, who I have met multiple times in person. I reach out to people often, and people often reach out to me, over email.
That is why I shared my story and mentioned to OP that my inbox was open: to develop or at least explore a possible connection. This is as intentional as it gets with making connections, but your priors are causing you to misunderstand my intentions and paint my comment in an insultingly negative light.
> I can assure you that there was nothing performative or hollow about my comment. OP said something that resonated with me, and so I shared my story in an attempt to bridge and find commonalities.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say at all that what you're doing was somehow performative. By saying it feels "hollow", I mean that when you are on the receiving end of an action like this it often feels hollow because you have no relationship with the person. They are skipping several steps in the relationship development process from zero to "I want to engage with you on something that is deep and painful".
This may be totally fine for some people, but to me (and apparently to the person I was responding to) when it happens I feel like I am becoming some sort of symbolic prop to the person. It's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like a human interaction at all.
My intention wasn't to cast doubt on your motivations, just to tell publicdebates that I understand the feeling he was describing.
Thank you. I understand where you're coming from. And I know interactions online can seem fleeting or meaningless. Personally I find meaning in connecting with strangers, even if once. I don't think we need to fully understand each other's internal experience in order to relate. I appreciate you clarifying your intent :)
> I appreciate you clarifying your intent
Absolutely, happy to. And likewise! I'm sorry if what I said came off as judgemental or insulting. Not at all the intent, I assumed the motivation was nothing but kindness.
I read your story you shared here. Fkn hell is all I can say. That you survived this as a kid is kind of a miracle.
I admire your strength. How as a kid did you escape the brainwashing?
Regarding the replies above, they might be referring to how you can say “I love you” even though you don’t really know them. Just a guess.
I’m glad you made it out and that you’re now trying to help others.
I read a lot as a form of escapism. Multiple novels a week. So much so that books became the first item to be taken away from me in a punishment.
Not a doctor or anything, but what happens if you check your assumptions about someone's actions being hollow or making it about them and consider that they actually want to support you and show you love or empathy as a possibility? Removing some of our own defensive layers might be a first step - though I understand how difficult that can be since we've been burned so many times and they layers are there for a reason!
> knowing that it's entirely coming from you and your experiences, and nothing to do with me and my own personality
That's not the point of empathy and not the point of my outreach. I don't need to know you precisely or be within a certain proximity in order to empathize with you.
> A year ago, I was talking to the local Catholic priest (I was donating some religious statues that I had effectively inherited), and it came up in conversation that I was going through a rough time. He went in for a hug, and it felt so absolutely empty and disingenuous.
For what it's worth, the man who did these things to me was a Catholic deacon, and the hypocrisy is blood-boiling. He would give very pleasant-sounding homilies about love, acceptance, patience and understanding, and then come home and savagely beat and torture me through physically painful punishments and extended periods of isolation. I would not go to a Catholic leader if you are looking for surefire genuinity. The institution attracts performative, power-seeking individuals.
> What do I say next? What's the next thing we can do in that interaction, or maybe a later one if I ever see them again?
It's a combination of bridging and bonding. Meeting individuals, like myself or a stranger on the street, and learning that you have something in common which provides substrate for conversation and communication through a shared experience, is bridging. Developing those relationships by building around that core is bonding.
We typically bond contextually: We both go to the same school or office and see each other daily, or we run into each other at the store each week, etc. I once ended up becoming best friends and living with someone who was my cashier at Trader Joes.
Instead of telling me our personalities and experiences have nothing to do with each other, we could discuss our experiences, find commonalities that are more than surface-level, and bond over those. I've met great people on this website. I've met some of them in person. Friends are all over the place, hiding in plain sight.
> For what it's worth, the man who did these things to me was a Catholic deacon, and the hypocrisy is blood-boiling. He would give very pleasant-sounding homilies about love, acceptance, patience and understanding, and then come home and savagely beat and torture me through physically painful punishments and extended periods of isolation.
Do you think he ever did this to other kids?
Was he ever brought to justice?
Did your parents know he did this to you?
Everyone in my family knows what happened. His temper was famous. They all downplayed or ignored it. That includes my mom. She was too busy doing drugs and going in and out of prison to give a shit that I was being abused. My dad was also a drug addict and a sexual abuser and has not been in my life for a very long time.
And my grandfather's siblings ignored it for reasons I can only imagine, since my grandfather would sometimes pin me to the ground and spit in my face while telling me that I should be grateful because what he did to me was nothing compared to what his father did to him.
Of course, now my mom pretends that living with her was always an option, and that remaining in my environment was my own choice. She is a major narcissist who victim blames, blames her children for everything and says horrible things to me.
I kid you not, like she used to remind me all the time that when I was a fetus inside of her, she fell once and landed on her back "to protect me" and that I'm the reason she has terrible back pain now, that's a sacrifice she made for me and I should be grateful, because it's basically my fault. As far as I am concerned, I do not love her and she is not allowed in my life. And anyway, as I mentioned elsewhere she's currently in prison for domestic abuse.
I no longer speak to anyone in my family outside of my sister because no one stood up for me. Even my sister downplays the seriousness of what happened.
My grandfather is now in his 80s and well-acquainted with the town's DA. There isn't a shot in hell that I can touch him. I do not know what he has done to other people, he was only ever this violent with me to my knowledge. My brother usually aided him in assaulting me and was not on the receiving end of violence. My grandfather was an award-winning boxer so it was quite a bit of violence.
Have you forgiven your mother?
Have you forgiven your grandfather?
It sounds like you've distanced yourself from them which given what you've said, sounds like the right thing.
So I mean, have you forgiven them in your heart? Or even told them that you have?
Or do you think you'll never forgive them?
Good questions. If we're going by Oxford's definition of "stop feeling angry or resentful", I think the PTSD is here to stay, along with other facets of my personality and life which will always remind me of my experiences. Past that, I have made peace with my life, because that's the thing I'll always have to grapple with. Otherwise, I would just be so bitter... Instead, I focus on how statistically lucky I am to still be alive.
But I have no intention of speaking to my father or grandfather ever again. As for my mother, I laid out clear terms for what it would take to begin communication with me again, and she responded about as narcissistically as you can imagine... So I have made my peace with that as well. She's in prison now and I have no plans to reach out to her while she's in there. She lied to me about the situation, lied to me about the case, and lied to me about the sentencing. So as far as I should know, she's not even in prison. I had to pay the local clerk of court for access to her court documents just to know the truth.
> I would not go to a Catholic leader if you are looking for surefire genuinity. The institution attracts performative, power-seeking individuals.
Do you feel this way about all Christian denominations? Or mainly Catholic pastors?
Leaders in any capacity can abuse their position. Secular therapists can abuse their position.
I think Christianity as a religion has evil roots. The character of Jesus is portrayed valiantly, but the character of God is frequently portrayed as nothing short of sociopathic and psychopathic.
I don't respect the religion at all, nor any Abrahamic religion, as it's built upon falsehoods that justify prejudiced, authoritarian behavior. These religions have been the basis for untold amounts of conflict, conquest and cultural destruction. People who understand these things and still seek positions in such institutions should not be trusted. And we know the Vatican in particular has quite a sordid history of protecting child abusers.
I agree, leaders in any capacity can abuse their position. Look no further than Boy Scouts of America for examples at scale.
And I personally went to a therapist who ended up in prison for fraud. I also went to a daycare that shut down after an investigation stemming from me coming home one day with lashes all over my face and tongue and no recollection of what happened.
Bad people are everywhere. At least we can try to avoid institutions built to justify abuse.
> I don't respect the religion at all, nor any Abrahamic religion, as it's built upon falsehoods that justify prejudiced, authoritarian behavior. These religions have been the basis for untold amounts of conflict, conquest and cultural destruction.
Many people claim that the Bible, the church, their faith, etc has helped them. What's your take on that? Do you feel that the bad has outweighed the good in terms of its effects on people? This is a tough one because people, if they're biased, look to examples that favor their view.
I would imagine that if more bad than good came out of religion, then that religion would eventually fade to nothing.
For every evil religious person I've met, I tend to know a few good and even awesome ones.
> the character of God is frequently portrayed as nothing short of sociopathic and psychopathic.
I've heard critics of religion make this claim but I don't fully understand it.
I of course wouldn't expect you to go forth with a thesis here on this topic. :-)
So I'll ask, do you think there's a good author that makes this case? I'm sure someone has written on that.
I'm familiar with Bart Eherman's work. He left the faith due to "the problem of evil".
God is a great author to reference. The Bible is filled with enough atrocities and inconsistencies that it remains my number one recommendation for deprogramming Christians.
God told Abraham to kill his son as a test of fealty, then psyched him at the end:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac
God flooded the entire fucking earth, killing countless innocent people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative
God rained sulfur upon a city because they were sucking too much dick, and turned a guy's wife into salt:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019&ve...
Now, you could point out that many of the stories in Genesis, including the Garden of Eden, can actually be traced back to older works, such as the epic of Gilgamesh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Relationship...
And I would agree, and this further weakens the legitimacy of the Christian mythos.
I'm surprised you cited Genesis 22. :-)
Some people, when confronted with Gen22, simply say "wow, I want nothing to do with this religion", and walk away.
Other's see the story and say "wow... how do Christian's get around this one?". And so volumes have been written on this story. There's a ton of rich theology there for folks who were wiling to look past the initial hurdle.
I.e. the argument that "look at this horrific story" only really works for a small subset of people who aren't willing to look into the theology of it.
Now, one could argue that people who find the theology of the story satisfying are somehow demented, but that's a different argument.
I am always in awe when people are able to manage such an unsavoury baggage. That's some tough going.
A rare show of vulnerability on hackernews. I commend you and echo the sentiment!
I really appreciate you sharing your story. Know that it does not define you and you are absolutely loved and are worthy of love, especially from yourself.
> And there are people who I think love me.
Everyone reading your comment loves you, for just yourself and for your kindness and generosity.
I... what did I just read?!
How. On. Earth. did you turn yourself around with those pre-conditions??
Predominantly, rejecting all priors and aggressively maintaining an open mind, reading a lot as a child, intentionally deferring the formation of concrete opinions about things until I was on my own and able to guide my own hand.
This was necessary because I was raised by two major conservatives, in rural, conservative areas, surrounded by racists and sexists, my computer use and reading materials were surveilled and restricted, I was only allowed to listen to approved Christian music, I couldn't really even choose my own clothes, shoes or hairstyles. My belongings were regularly searched and my school administrators and teachers were always looped into the surveillance circle, alerting my grandparents and school administrators and punishing me if I so much as drew a stick figure holding nunchaku or dared journal about my experiences.
There was a very aggressive and invasive attempt to brainwash me and the only thing I could think to do was wait until I was on my own, and learn everything from scratch. This began at 16, when I became homeless after refusing to enter Confirmation as a Catholic (I am atheist). My grandparents kicked me out and stole/broke most of my things. My mom was too busy doing drugs and not working to support me.
I read a lot of philosophy and studied various topics. This has helped immensely with forming a foundation for my morality, sense of ethics and motivation. I still battle with a lot of internal demons stemming from my childhood and disorders including ADHD, and I can get extremely depressed, and I've burned out a couple times, but I just devote myself to my work and studies and get by. My brother, on the other hand, turned into a domestic abuser, which tracks considering his large role in the violence I experienced growing up.
It's clear to me that intentionality was the defining factor in escaping most of the traumatic cycles present in my family tree, including drug addiction, violence and crime (as an example, my mom is currently in prison for abusing a mentally-handicapped quadriplegic)
The question is about systemic solutions:
- Invest in 3rd places:
· Zoning that allows small businesses and cafés to be near where people live.
· Invest heavily in public libraries.
· Invest in public parks and spaces. For places where it rains a lot, maybe that should include roofed structures.
· Increase and promote funding for social organisations. Give money to orgs for every member.
- Create more free time:
· Make legislation that accommodates and promotes work weeks shorter than 37 hours.
· Ensure decent and reliable support for people who cannot (find) work, so their time is freed up to support their community.
- In disaster readiness checklists, include a point about knowing the names and special needs of your neighbours.
- Invest in mental health services. Both serious stuff and some light-weight sit-and-talk-groups.
- Set up laws that promote public transportation and carpooling.
- Anti-trust social media companies. Promote competitive compatibility between social media platforms. This is to let consumers choose the services that give them the best outcomes.
There's a little convenience/liquor store at the first floor of my suburban apartment building. I mean true convenience store. Lots of shelves with snacks and liquor. Bright lighting. Zero ambience.
It also has a tiny bar. Like 3 feet long with three stools. One terrible television.
Yet there are always people in there hanging out. People are so desperate for a place to hang that is not their house that they will hang out in a convenience store bar.
I don't think there's a single fix, but small design changes matter: more third places that don't revolve around consumption, work schedules that allow for regular community life, activities where showing up quietly is acceptable. Loneliness isn't just about lack of friends, it's about lack of belonging
This is a minor thing, but as an introvert, I really try and push myself to model social behaviour to my kids. Saying good morning to people in the street, chatting to other dog owners, being nice to waiters, travelling by bus, there are lots of tiny opportunities every day to show that world is full of lovely people who aren’t scary at all.
I think this is quite an interesting question. Especially for the developer audience. If you're an engineer, then you likely have similar tendencies to a lot of other engineers. You want to spend time alone, but you also feel the need to combat this loneliness, isolation and depression that it leads to. You want to connect, but struggle to do so. The internet, software, reddit and other places became a safe haven, but then they perpetuated what was hindering you in the first place. I say these things because I'm that person. I lost decades to this sort of escapism that comes from an online world. Unfortunately the answers rarely work for us at the time we're going through this. It's rare for someone to just break out of the cycle. Something has to change, but it's a change that comes from deep within yourself.
Sometimes you have to reflect on the why. Why am I here, why am I in this situation. And often it's that deeper internal reflection that starts to motivate something, change something. Listen, I lost decades. And I still struggle. But no one else can solve this for you.
In terms of the loneliness epidemic itself. You have to split it into many separate categories. Isolation comes in many forms. For the online generation, who grew up with the internet, we are specific category. But I'll tell you, the path to fixing it has more to do with understanding why we are here than filling the time with arbitrary activities or socialising. Yes we need human connnection and yes we should explore, learn and grow. But fundamentally the first question we should be asking, why am I here, what is my purpose, now what should I do with that.
In my case, I did find talking to someone helped, but only after coming to the realisation that I needed to talk to someone and then proactively seeking it out. As much as we want to solve the problem for many people, they have to walk a path before they can see the truth. We can offer alternatives, but people will only find what they're looking for when they're ready.
I've been working on something called Open Enough Design (OED). The core idea: most rooms force a binary choice between total isolation (the bunker) and overwhelming exposure (the stage). Neither works. What works is a dial you can adjust.
In my book "Leave the Door Open" I suggest simple, high leverage moves anyone can do. Three examples of practical moves that cost nothing:
-Turn your chair to face the door instead of a wall. Your nervous system relaxes when it can see who's coming.
- If you live alone, open your door or window four inches for an hour. The sounds of life beyond your walls remind your body you're not alone on the planet.
- Put out a second chair. Even if no one visits. It shifts your internal posture from "no one is coming" to "I'm expecting life to enter."
Small changes, I know. But the room shapes you as much as you shape it. It's a virtuous cycle.
I write about this at oedmethod.substack.com if you want to go deeper.
1. Pass a law letting people WFH where its reasonably possible. I WFH in a walkable city and me and my friends try new restaurants every week, always around noon. I've met lots of new people, and joined new groups that I wouldn't have found out about if I was stuck at my desk. Give people more freedom of movement.
Do you have any strong evidence that this would improve the situation? It may be correlative and not causative, but as working from home is increasing, it seems that most related statistics to loneliness are increasing as well. What if it's actually part of the problem and not the solution?
I'm not saying that I have evidence on hand to the contrary, just trying to challenge the idea.
At least in my area, WFH is going away and RTO is increasing. More and more of my friends can not meet up for lunch breaks for example.
It seems counterintuitive to restrict where people can be, and expect them to meet new people. I don't want to use my office to socialize, I prefer to make friends that I share interests with.
I see some people in this thread have had success with coworking spaces, that sounds better than an office, at least.
Rely on someone that is social or be that person to organize things.
I’m ultra depressed so I have just been relying on others.
You know the people that are the most lonely? Old widows/widowers that spend too much time in their houses.
Luckily I’m an introvert. But, even if you are, you should get out and do something.
Your health and mental wellness depend on socializing IRL.
This is a difficult problem to want to solve. Some of it has to do with low income or joblessness. So this is the first focus I would set - make income easier to come by, more fair, more distributed. This in itself will not fix the solo state of people but it would alleviate some worries. Then we have to tackle the social problem. This is really difficult to want to solve. Activity helps, so the state should be able to encourage more activity overall. For instance, in my own youth I was physically more active, so you meet a lot of people through sports - that alone works fairly well. You can probably think of many more cohesive social structures and what not. I think it is a difficult to want to solve problem though. Not everyone uses social media by the way but is still isolated; Japan even gave some odd name to this.
Build or join a local community!
I’ve been working with https://fractal.boston/ and adjacent communities for the last year and my loneliness has been cured. I now have the opposite problem where I don’t get enough time to myself!
When I go to tech meetups, I often see a great deal of people sitting alone using their phones, because interacting with people you don't know is scary.
Try to resist! Yeah it's scary but most tech-heads are as nerdy/goofy as you and are interested in all the details of whatever you hacking on.
Start with you: 1. Daily sunshine 2. Nutritious diet 3. Adequate, quality sleep 4. Exercise
You'll find virtually every dimension of your life will improve if you're on top of these four things. It will make you more ambitious in pursuing social engagement. And that will make socialization much easier.
Decommodify relationships
Decapitalize third spaces.
Reduce the difficulty of making walkable cities - building zoning reform, mass transit.
Housing in my city has been expensive for years, and the knock-on effect is that most people I know live so far apart we barely see each other anymore.
When you stack a two hour trip each way on top of the rising cost of doing anything at all, on top of already crushing housing and living costs, you end up with a perfect storm where staying home becomes the default. Not because people don’t want to socialise, but because the effort and expense make it impractical.
This has been a prolem where I live for years and I've actively watched it become worse over time as people have been forced to move further and further apart, and further and further away from the active areas of the city in order to be able to afford to keep a roof over their head.
Since this is a tech forum, the best solutions I've seen to this problem seem to be arising on instagram due to its good location based advertising (it was originally meetup.com but they sacrificed their lead during grandstand on covid). Lots of run clubs, events, dances, and things to do get recommended in my feed all the time, and once you get into a scene people are usually recommending more things to do. There are sometimes community based apps as well which recommend local things to do. Ultimately though you need to go outside and meet people, you can't solve it by sitting in your house alone talking to internet people.
Is it an epidemic or culture.
Is there such as thing as loneliness, theoretically, I mean.
Consider this, since when was the physical body or its constituents not lonely. Imagine nail on finger, it grows anyway, lonely :), amazing!
Ask about the abstract parts too, the heart or the mind. On its own it is always lonely. But the mind is imagining way beyond, because it can. That little twist in thought, creates such a dilemma. Mind can bring more to life, it can comprehend that loneliness is included in the experiential existence AND simply to move on "along" with life. The bonding is built in. Nothing magnificent, it just exists and evolves, amazing!
The deeper you get the lonlier you get.
And that can happen even when you are among 1000s of people, not just alone , if you are among people thinking of something else, staring into the void or that you can't connect etc. you are a deep person.
Deep person + deep thinker is the worse. Also people aren't doing them any favor by singing the praise of being a deep person and a deep thinker.
It also has to do with abundance of everything and being not in need of cooperating 24/7/365 to avoid starving ....some people slip into deep thinking and deep emotional introspection...yeah fuck that
I know homeless people and rich people, equally lonely and unfulfilled and unhappy. I don't know what the solution is. I'm trying to figure it out. But I know that throwing money at this problem does little to solve it. I know from experience.
Keep in mind that the answer to this question is likely multifaceted. That is, there isn't going to be one killer policy or app or attitude or event which will solve this problem, but it would require a multi-pronged approach.
The first step to solving it would be proving it exists.
Because it doesn't. It's been a phrase used for over 40 years to decry basically any change the author didn't like, from different technology, the rise of the 'me' generation or the declining religiousness of the US.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/202504/loneliness-is...
Individuals may be lonely, but that has always been true. There is no evidence this is different than before, growing, or in anyway an 'epidemic.'
In person RPGs, tabletop wargames and boardgames are amazing for geek culture. Thanks to local Discord groups, I have an active nerd community that I play games with at least once a week. This has revolutionized by social life!
There is a introverted crafty side of painting and 3D printing miniatures that works great for me too.
These games all work as essentially offline alternatives to videogames and are way more fun!
Also, my local game store serves beer; so its essentially a nerd bar even though most people don't drink.
Wargaming related references: Tabletop Minions on YouTube, The HiveScum podcast, Companies such as Black Site Studios and Conferences such as Adepticon.
Go look these up!
You must go outside your traditional groups(family, friends, colleges) find several activities that you like or you had always wanted to do, meetups etc, stay on them for a while, that's how friendship happens, the key is a new group of something you enjoy, keep doing it, guaranteed will work
To paraphrase Barney Stinson:
When I'm feeling lonely, I stop feeling lonely and feel awesome instead.
There are lots of good suggestions in here. People just need to go do them. And if there are structural impediments to doing them, then eliminate those impediments.
I wasn't getting out enough during the day because I share the car with my wife. So I bought an EBike and now I go out all the time.
I chose to live in a place with things near by that I can go to.
Whenever I'm thinking, I'd like to go do an activity, but I need something else first, it's usually not true, or the other thing I need is easy to get.
People just need to decide to stop doing things that make them unhappy.
By restoring free “third places” where people just go to hang out and either bump into people they know or meet new people. The sorts of interactions you get in the common room in a dorm or a school cafeteria.
What sorts of places do you have in mind? Obviously dorms and cafeterias are great for college-aged adults, but for somebody in their late-20s and beyond?
Locally, we have plenty of non-chain coffee shops, a good selection of small breweries/pubs, assorted gyms of all types and prices (CrossFit, Golds, etc), the local community center has assorted classes (dance, language, arts), and the community college has plenty of evening courses across most subject areas. Toss in MeetUps and Facebooks groups and there's plenty of chance to do things with social groups.
You hit it on the money, third places won’t matter if it’s not accessible.
We need to promote density, walkability and time.
In America there is an idea that anyone who wants more that 4 hours to live outside of work is lazy or in some form selfish.
We do need to model university a little bit imo. Give me stuff to do that I can get to with fair ease, give people the time and energy to do it and everyone will be a lot more social
Yeah, I feel like suburban sprawl is as much to blame (or more so) than social media.
I live in the suburbs, but almost everything is within 2 miles... office, schools, and one cafe are walkable. Gym, another cafe, pub, and the town center (privately owned mixed-use complex) are 2-3 miles, so long walk, short bike, or 5 minutes in the car. I wish it was more walkable, but compared to most suburban areas, it's really good.
Contrasted my sister's house, on the other side of the county... nothing is within 3 miles or so. Basically a car ride to do anything, as there's no bike infrastructure for those things that are within 3 miles.
All of those options either require you to spend money or are scheduled. It’s not about having things to do. It’s about social interaction happening more organically in places where you can just show up any time and hang out and end up bumping into the same people every day for years on end.
Think neighborhood parks and playgrounds. A dog run. The clubhouse or member center at a housing development. Houses of worship are still such a place for a lot of people. The streets where kids used to play and ride bikes but that we no longer let them out onto. Stoops in some urban neighborhoods (which in many have ceased to be a third place due to the cultural changes accompanying gentrification). On the other end of the social spectrum, gentlemen’s clubs.
Its mostly social anxiety. Which makes sense. Children have progressively been raised more and more on screens and devices. Teenagers rely more and more on technology to solve problems. Adults do too. No one has to interact anymore, which means many people no longer know how. Cue the anxiety.
In previous generations, you had to interact with others to get anything done at all. Kids had to play with kids, parents had to talk to the postman, the milkman, the newspaper boy, the telephone operator, the neighbors, you name it. It was a necessity for a functional life, so people did it.
It's so interesting to see the tech community all angsty about the loneliness epidemic.
20 years ago, the Pope warned of the coming "epidemic of loneliness" that the tech industry would bring us, and the tech industry laughed at him. They said he was just an old man who didn't understand and that technology would bring us together in unity and happiness.
And yet, here we are 20 years later, and hardly a day goes by that someone doesn't submit an article to HN about loneliness.
I think people approach it wrong. The framing of solving our loneliness is kind of transactional in a way. Good relationships are not transactional. You got to work on yourself to be curious about others. If it’s genuine, people will reciprocate and relationships develop. You also won’t care as much about putting yourself out there, because the act of getting to know someone is what you like. Greatest thing that ever happened for my social life was hearing Ted Lasso quote “Be curious, not judgemental”.
Start a community or join one. I have a friend that started a social community where they host discussion groups, sharing circles, art marking, picnics, field trips, cooking club, etc. The whole focus is on creating connection. I myself run an experimental games meetup where our small niche share what were working on each month. I also have a book club each week with some friends (although we chat more about life than books). I think 2026 is the year of community. Make an intentional effort. Show up in the same space repeatedly.
I wonder if there would be some way to create a hyper-local MMO. Let people meet each other from the comfort of their homes and bond over the shared activity of the MMO, and make it so the people you are likely to play with are also in your general geographic region. That way, it would be an easy way to meet people, bond with them, and potentially meet up IRL to take the friendship further.
I think this would be an awesome idea but the main challenge here would be game design and implementation. You'd need a lot of capital and some big ass game studio.
Friendship is hard and requires a lot of energy, and it will not always pay off. You're going to get burned, ghosted, and bailed on. It's far too easy to push the hermit-mode button, and doomscroll your life away.
Social capital requires *active* participation. If you're willing to invest, put yourself out there. Be the person that kicks off the things that are interesting to you. You'll find that people are interested in things you thought were niche. As a mentor once told me: life is a body-contact sport; get out there.
LifeKit did an episode on this recently. https://www.npr.org/2026/01/06/nx-s1-5667582/how-to-build-a-...
Some things I do: I organize a monthly brunch for friends. I try and grow it, invite people I've recently met.
If someone asks me to do something, I try and do it. Get invited to poker night, I'm there. Asked to play Fantasy Football, yep! Even though I don't watch football and have never played.
Working on a basketball app to bring people together. Basketball was invented out of grief, by James Naismith who lost his grandfather, mother, father, and family home to a fire within 4 months. He was tasked with helping to have rambunctious youth learn the principles of teamwork and sharing and slowing down and thus created the game. It truly brings people together and I hope everyone gets a chance to experience the magic that is pickup basketball. It got me out of a deep hole after the pandemic after my mom had passed and I gained 30 lbs.
A couple of years ago I tried to create a platform to connect people to local communities. The twist was that each community had members that worked as buddies to help welcome and guide new members. I got 10s+ communities and members but since there was no business model associated and I needed to work, I couldn't kept it up. The website was https://tribalo.app.
From the few numbers I got, I figure out it help. Maybe one day I don't need to work and can focus on it again.
Pick an activity that is accessible that catches your fancy. Even better if you already have an activity, just spend more time doing it and with people you enjoy hanging out with. At a minimum you'll start feeling less lonely and over time hopefully you'll start forming relationships outside the activity
I am a recent convert to pickleball and highly recommend it because it relatively easy to start with but also the wide range of people who participate in the sport - college kids to retirees
In urban areas, we really should have less cars. But it’s emblema of a deeper issue; the interests of control and convenience in one’s time has crowded out everything else. If you have an established social circle and a decent income there’s never been a better time to take charge of your social life. Unfortunately the most able to change the system for those who have neither of these things are the least likely to understand. It’s a tough and old question to be honest
Number one in managing loneliness: stand on your own legs. Realise that true happiness comes from inside not from outside, find meaning in just being alive.
Second is family, parents until 30's and then your own. Wife, kids will always be there, either on Wednesday night or on Christmas. You will give no f for others.
Third long time friends in decreasing time scale: high school, college/uni, work.
Fourth you reach out any club you find, from mushroom lovers to blind date lovers.
Get off social media, and go do things you enjoy that aren’t centered around consuming.
Volunteer at a museum if you like art, etc.
You just have to go live and bump into other people living in the world.
There is an old joke or trope of an evil scientist creating a worm that destroys the Internet and everyone ends up thanking him for saving the world.
I think one solution is to have more accessible public spaces where people can meet. As a host of board game meetups, my biggest challenge is finding places to meet. I had to stop hosting Friday game nights because the available spaces were too expensive or closed early.
I'm working on an open source non-commercial website to drive up demand for public spaces. https://createthirdplaces.org/
Kids make friends pretty easily when they go to school and later college. Only after graduating college it becomes very hard to make friends.
So one solution is have folks attend classes in schools and universities or even local libraries during weekends. Classes specifically designed for different age groups - 30s, 40s, 50s etc. Classes related music, personal finance, investing, art, sports, cooking etc
Govt should offer tax breaks for attending these classes. That would attract a lot of people.
You can organize things. It's surprisingly easy. You just put up a FB event.
When I was younger and moved to a new (foreign) city, The first thing I did was to create a "picnic" for people coming from my country. No agenda, no nothing, let's just hang out and have some wine, cheese and chat while sitting on the grass. You'd be surprised how successful this was, and some of them keep running regularly without me for over a decade now.
Funny because here's my solution: Step 1: Delete FB account.
For me, the loneliest period of my life was when I was socially active but hanging out with people that I didn't really like or respect. Don't neglect spiritual and mental health as a strong component of loneliness. It's not always about dragging your body from one event to another to maximize the number of people in your life. You have to make sure your mind, body and spirit are present and aligned.
> You have to be the one who creates things to do.
This. Isn't it fascinating that for all the different ways we have to reach people (almost immediately, anywhere in the world, at virtually no cost) and all the different social entertainment options, people feel unable to perform an action that is so simple? An action that their ancestors going back all the way to the hominids has done at massively greater costs to them?
What is it that makes people feel this powerless?
Encouraging people to meet up in everyday life and gathering them just to talk is where I’d simply start.
In that spirit I have created and deployed a vibe coded app: come have dinner.com (not the real website).
A simple website we share with my SO to our loved ones, friends, co workers and more. People can register to come have dinner at ours, with an attendance they don’t know.
The website has an admin interface with a simple password, some good jokes, email reminders and calendar invitations.
Should I open source it?
One probable cause of it is hyper individualistic achievement culture. Not everyone is tuned for this. It's not a shortcoming.
Community, friends and when spirituality helps.
It seems you can't ignore a lot of this is a product of fewer children, temporary and transitional relationships that are not governed by the boundaries of marriage, and fewer intact families. This leads to fewer siblings, fewer responsibilities toward others, and more opportunities to be and feel isolated. There is a reason why the concept of a family protected by certain legal responsibilities and obligations have been around for a long time. I can't imagine getting older and having no children or siblings. I look at my parents and the only reason why they advanced into old age with tons of support is because of their siblings and children. Friends only go so far. Also the loss of belief in God and purpose lived out through regular Church attendance, charitable activities with a purpose, and community prayer leads to fractured relationships, philosophical and existential anxieties, no matter how many people you have around you. There's a reason why religious communities and institutions have survived thousands of years through all sorts of political upheavals and change. The modern experimentation rejecting God and family doesn't seem to be working out so well. As the older population ages (and increasingly gets euthanized), the younger population shrinking, and the greater reliance on recreational drugs and technology to fill the void, it really doesn't seem that hard to understand the increasing loneliness.
I grew up in the 90s chronically online, isolated, abused, and socially awkward. Then I started working out, losing weight, trying to get better socially, then left atheism and became a Christian at 17, quit drugs and porn, met my wife, we now have 4 kids, love our church, and I can’t even imagine what loneliness feels like now. With 4 kids and a future with grandkids, pile in all our friends from church, hard to imagine a future where I’ll ever feel that emptiness and loneliness again. There’s a lot of hard work and pain I didn’t mention but it’s all been worth it
Yeah, life isn't one of those "old single friends living together" sitcoms. Most interaction is with family, anything else is more of a bonus that can't be relied on.
There are also plenty of cultures with family values not rooted in religion.
We seem to agree that what replaced religion (for profit social media) is not a basis for a strong society, or fulfilling lives. Religion seems like a close 2nd worst option though.
I think it’s bigger than a decrease in attendance in religious groups though I agree the impact is felt there too. Social clubs, non-profits, fraternal and civic organizations, neighborhood associations, labor unions, local political chapters, trade associations, etc etc.
Basically all forms of outward focused, community or geographic based groups seem to have been on a downward trend for decades in favor of hyperreal, inward-focused online spaces.
Church is a big thing though, it's weekly and not some hobby or niche. Like I've moved more often than I kinda wanted to, and each time instantly started hanging out with friends I met after church, even though I wasn't going there to meet people.
Maybe a societal foundation of: magic man in the sky - wasn't so great a foundation after all?
It would be quite the opposite, the magic man favours families, children, and population growth. The rejection of these beliefs seems to be what is detrimental to society. The other stuff I'll leave for you to decide.
What a non sequitur.
I'm not convinced, I believe the institutions of church were and often still are the foundations of communities in many positive ways.
But the fact that they rest on an arbitrary belief in one of the popular gods does make it a pretty shakey foundation.
We see it right now, as the belief in Christianity has dwindled so too have the communities the church was supporting, the community can be separate to belief and probably should be of it is to support a greater community.
He's not wrong though.
Not a non sequitur ... go back and read what they responded to.
Is this a fortnite reference?
> The modern experimentation rejecting God and family doesn't seem to be working out so well.
Although I agree with the sentiment, I think the problem is what replaced it, not that they were replaced. Religious belief has been replaced by a quasi-religion revolving around clipling autodetermination and aggrandizement.
I don't think people suffer from not having faith in some god nowadays, I think they suffer for not having faith, period. I see people around me prefering to live in known discomfort, than choosing to "roll the dice". Religion played the role of teaching people not everything that happens to them is in their control, and comforting them that it would all turn out well. What we have nowadays is the awfuly debilitating belief that everything that happens in your life is your own doing, and that unless there's evidence thigns will work out, there's no reason to believe they will.
I personally see the risk-adversity this philosophy leads to everywhere. I see it in people prefering apps over potentially making a fools of themselves, or "risking it" with a stranger. I see it in people who want leave jobs or living situations but fail to take the leap. I see it in people strugging with even small decisions, obsessing over reading reviews for everything, refusing to commit in relationships.
Religion also gave you a certain peace of mind concerning your purpose in life, and assured you you could be perfectly content with little. In fact it assures you can be more "successful" at life than people who achieve great wealth or fame, since in religion success is measured by, say, devotion, acts of service, building a family, or other means instead.
This can be replaced by positive philosophies that focus people in the prusuit of eudaimonia, but instead have been replaced by reverence to aggrandizement and too often hedonism. The goal too often becomes fame, money, status, or, again, control, both out of fear your life might not be determined by you solely, and for the pursue of vain pleasures.
I see this as a product of an obsessive reverence to libertarian capitalism. Overall, it works very well in its favour. Convincing people the course of their lives depends soley on their own decisions is ingraining reverence for individualism and rejection for collectivism. The pursuit of wealth and status is good for the economy; when people are truly happy with the small things in life, they tend to buy less. I'm not saying libertarian capitalism lead to this philosophy, or that this philosophy lead to libertarian capitalism; I think they go hand-in-hand, and as one grows so does the other.
"Rejecting" nonexistent mythical entities is not "experimentation".
Your refrain is a common one, but it seems pretty hollow upon deeper investigation. Maybe consider why modern Americans aren’t making the same family structure and child count decisions as long ago.
In the days of subsistence farming, a child was an additional free worker. Once we mechanized farming, we went from 50% subsistence farming to 1%. Children moved from the profit-center column to the cost-center column.
Medicine improvements and government policies have reduced child mortality. Mothers no longer need to conceive 12 kids to ensure that 4 live to adulthood. Each birth is a much higher resource cost and a much larger responsibility than in generations past.
The gratifying life of being a stay-at-home mom to 18 kids only works so long as the father keeps the money rolling in and doesn’t decide to abandon the family (this happened to an aunt of mine). The modern changes to family structure didn’t happen out of the blue — they were a response to inadequate protections and violations of freedoms that people had at the time. You might consider educating yourself on your blind spots about the topic.
Churches are eating themselves. People aren’t “moving away from God” so much as seeing the churches as liars. Christianity is full of lies: many small, some big. The more that people are exposed to others with different perspectives, more education, and better ways to communicate complicated topics, the more likely people are to leave a church that lies to them. Churches which have been outed for covering up child sex abuse have seen outflows. Bad policies made it more likely that the child sex abuse would happen. Further bad policies prevented the abuser to go free without prosecution. Even further bad policies have allowed the internal investigations/reviews to be quietly ignored.
Ultimately small churches have empty pews because they aren’t entertaining. MegaChurches / televangelists based in Orange County, Dallas, Houston are pulling in members while small town churches close due to lack of membership. Churchgoers tend to care more about being engaged in the showmanship of the leader than the common benefits of keeping a community alive.
The other functions that churches serve (community service, reminders of purpose) are being replaced by the free market of ideas. Some churches are turning the pulpit into a political campaign. Many secular non-profits are taking up the slack of dying community churches by doing a slice of the same work without the lies, sex abuse, coercion, and threats of damnation.
Then there are completely unrelated changes in society. More people care more about having pets (dogs, cats) than children. Values change as society changes. Companies get far better at marketing than individuals get better at resisting marketing. Drugs, gambling, sex/porn, outrage / attention economy, etc have all been turbocharged via capitalism.
The values of the average person have changed a lot. It doesn’t make sense to cling to the old institutions if they don’t meet the people where they are.
There is so much to this issue. One major problem is the lack of fourth places. If I want to be low-key social where do I go? Some people say the library but IMHO libraries are not social spots. The concept of man shed is cool except for the gender aspect but it's mostly private sheds. There is a maker space in the city but membership is limited and there is a wait list.
I have been trying to make more friends in the real and virtual world the past two years, and I have been pretty successful. Most of my new friends come from the following: Volleyball, MtG, or a writing group.
Really, I think that it comes down to make making or joining a space with a shared activity and moderating out the crap.
The problem is most communities are losing those spaces in favor of private social clubs. That's what we need to fight.
It looks like every comment here is suggesting that lonely people should do something to feel less lonely. But that's not how you stop an epidemic.
The epidemic is a systemic things, and you don't solve systemic things by giving advice to individuals. You solve systemic things by changing the whole culture. and you change the whole culture by large scale initiative.
That said, I have no idea about what to do!
I firmly disagree.
I do agree that the advice being given for individuals is very misguided. It's like preaching to a nearly empty church about why more people should come to church. You're only going to reach the ones who are already there.
But in this case, systemic solutions don't exist outside of (a) individuals taking action, and then (b) that action having a real impact, and then (c) the individuals, actions, and impact snowballing into a movement.
My whole question from the start was, what should those (a) individuals do, to successfully get to (b) and (c)? I did not word this clearly at all.
Sure it always starts with an individual or a group of individuals, but what you describe is some sort of virality. Like a counter-epidemic if you will. It’s one way of getting changes in culture, which relies a lot on lucky timing. Like the Tee-totaler movement that lead to the prohibition in the US.
I think these events are extraordinarily rare. Civil rights is another one. These only happen when the bad situation is totally unbearable. Like huge wildfires happen when there is forest overgrowth.
Otherwise you need some sort of top down approach. if you want people to actually recycle their trash, fine them if they don’t. if you want people to stop dying on the roads, severely punish DUI and speeding. If you want people to have more children, reduce their taxes if they have some, etc.
Now fixing loneliness is complicated for sure. My opinion is that a grassroot movement is not going to succeed, cause the current situation is not that unsustainable, so people won’t take it in their own hands.
I save myself from total loneliness by hanging out in the background through a virtual frosted glass with my friend (via the https://MeetingGlass.com/ app). We do that every day for a few hours. Its better than nothing. It gives a relief from being home alone. At least you can see that someone is out there.
I have no link or affiliation with this company, but recently heard about it:
https://storiboardclub.com/
They say they want to “make meeting like-minded people easy, natural, and fun” and “ Loneliness doesn't have to be the norm.”
https://storiboardclub.com/about-us
I think part of the problem is that social media is normalized and it is easy. It is way easier to engage socially (or at least you feel like you're engaging socially) with likes and lurking and stuff. It is way harder to put on pants and go out and it is normalized to do so (phrasing like bedrotting is super casual, whereas it is actually really hard to maintain an eating disorder because you have to be constantly hiding it from people).
Also I think there's more groups whose social norms online teach you to be repulsive offline and again there's not enough social pushback against it. We do need to be harder on casual edginess online because it is teaching habitual behaviors that make it hard to engage socially. Your 50 year old hiking buddy is not going to understand your soycuck joke you are trying to show him on your phone. Your average wine mom at women-only book club is not going to love if you insist on talking about banning trans people from the club because they're "men invading the women's spaces" especially when there's very likely 0 trans people to exclude in the first place on account of trans people being rare.
Lastly there is usually a ton of stuff happening but the instructions on how to engage with it is nebulous. People who know the algorithm find it easy, the people who don't know the algorithm find it super hard. And IDK how to solve that because there's so much going on in people's heads that they don't realize the people around them seriously aren't scrutinizing them that much. There's like a socialization death spiral where every small awkward interaction hurts way more when you don't have enough experience to know that the small awkward interactions are normal. So you can't tell someone "just go to book club" because they'll go, have 1 normal situation like mishearing someone and then decide they are so embarrassed they can never go to book club again-- but since it is so normal it happens at every social event and they end up lonely.
You actually bring up the biggest obstacle to my tentative idea for this Sunday, of holding up a sign that points to a time/place for a casual conversation with strangers. I thought this would be a good way to get very lonely passers-by out of their comfort zone and into a situation where they have a chance to make friends and bond, but the absolute diversity of interests is the main show stopper. My first thought was to essentially avoid sensitive topics on the poster, such as religion and politics, but it still leaves the huge diversity of potential common interests open. So I started doing some research on the most common hobbies that people have in cities and that can be talked about casually, in hopes of finding like 5 ot 6 to write on the sign to get people into the coffee shop.
I think people who seek out activities assume you actually have to be interested in the activity. No. You're there to socialize. The activity is just an excuse to have a positive experience with people. I play board games. Do I like board games? Meh. Do I like hanging out with people and talking about a board game, sure. The difference is important. This is why its a common joke to attend book club without having read the book. The book is literally just an excuse to gather.
if you want to be interesting, be interested. the error in a lot of this that most people mistake solitude for loneliness and index on the wrong problem.
solitude is a rarefied luxury, but loneliness requires being around other people.
real loneliness is a lack of trust, and the lack of trust is the effect of anxiety, which originates from a lack of stable personal boundaries, both in self and others.
the lack of trust can be the effect of a cycle where solitude doesn't give you normal social momentum, so there isn't a way to be present in the moment with anyone you do meet. if you go to a cafe and start talking at a stranger about warcraft, you're ignoring their experience, and the experience you share in the place.
If you are a man, you need to learn to be around other men and recognize it's a n important skill that takes experience and practice. The epidemic might not be cured, but you can develop local immunity to loneliness by practicing relating to other men and refining your boundaries.
There is no "loneliness epidemic". It's a bad journalism epidemic. People in general are a combination of lone and grouping. Both are OK. People don't need to socialise all the time. People who want to socialise but can't usually suffer from emotional difficulties that they haven't addressed. Same for people who obssess about socialising all the time.
Maybe social media just meets their social needs. Maybe this is not a problem that needs to be solved, this is just the way things are now.
The answer is actually less technology. More in person community is the solution.
How do you get people to talk to each other again? It has to come through forming community groups that can meet and enjoy life together in the real world. It also can come from meet with a shared purpose to advance common causes that make the community and the world slightly better.
Organize things.
Start a bowling league, a DnD group, a book club, a charitable organization... whatever.
Have a dinner party. Join the chess club. Start or join a sports league.
Many of these community events aren't happening because nobody has created them yet and it might just be up to you to do it.
Part of the loneliness epidemic is somebody actually has to initiate things and not enough people do. YOU can do it.
I'll jump.
I've been meaning to set up a bi-weekly dinner for hacker types who live mid peninsula, specifically near San Mateo. I have a group of 4 or so in mind and have a good place to host, but would like a slightly larger group.
If anyone would be interested in helping to get something stood up, send electronic post to carl chatfield snail (mail run by g)
Communities, in-real-life communities.
Dancing, knitting, cooking, sports, gardening, board games. Which activity is secondary, what is crucial is that people can come (no matter if they feel great or not), can bring friends, with low pressure (so they can sit and talk, no need to actually dance, cook or so).
Regularity is crucial - weekly are the best.
We (reading this) can't do anything. An enlightened government might set policy in such ways as to fix this over the course of decades, but I don't even seen that being acknowledged as possible or desirable in those same decades. The problem will continue to deteriorate until it becomes catastrophic.
i like loneliness. in my teens i could not encourage my friends to travel so i went on my own and was happy. in my twenties i would comfortably break up my relationships if i knew i could be happier alone. i have worked overseas for extended periods alone. i am old now but i am happy alone. i enjoy my huge garden alone. i avoid crowds. I online shop instead of travelling to a store if i can. I just have no connection to people around me anymore and i have been able to recognise this need in me and encourage myself to follow my own understanding of a happy life. I have no real regrets. I am in a good position financially and have nobody to really bother me. I can look ahead to the next month or two and feel happy knowing there is nothing on the horizon to displace my solitude.
I wish I understood how people arrived at this state in the first place…
My parents are retired boomers who’ve lived in the same area for decades. This has afforded them a strong local fried network, despite being an ocean away from their homeland and extended families. Mom and her friends have a weekly gathering to chat and have tea/cake.
My wife and I likewise have a geoup of local friends. We get together quarterly or so for a group dinner. The wives usually organize that. Most of the guys are cat enthusiasts and/or cyclists so we see each many weekends.
Is this mostly a Millenial thing? Is there a whole generation that for whatever reason never found hobbies outside work?
> Most of the guys are cat enthusiasts and/or cyclists so we see each many weekends.
Why not combine the two and take the cats cycling? A nice 30 meowle ride.
>Is this mostly a Millenial thing? Is there a whole generation that for whatever reason never found hobbies outside work?
Millennials were/are repeatedly economically fucked by boomers. Difficult to have hobbies or a social life when you're thrown on your ass by your greedy parents at the same time that the shitheels they elected ruined the economy (2008.) And I'll pre-empty any BS about money, money is required for everything, there is no such thing as free in the "land of the free".
I visit whatever sport activity I can find. Like Go Karting, gymnastics, bouldering, etc and always start asking pro guys: “yo, how come you visit this so often? How do you get fun from it?”. And people lovely tell their story. Later they teach me how to do things. It works for me.
I am a solo bootstrap founder, ultra lonely.
Trading Cards!
IMO the biggest barrier to entry to the hobby is the price, coupled with the existing communities being really old. I'm trying to get people to print their own cards for casual kitchen table play through https://cardstocktcg.com.
Familiar relationships always come out of a sense of shared responsibility and utility, not out of a "secular" desire to "make friends", the way I see it.
So, live vigorously in a way that benefits from social relationships and they will necessarily come.
Be useful to others and they often return the favor.
There is no easy solution to this problem. It's a conflux of many factors. (There are no more "third spaces". Too much rent-seeking behavior. The centralization of platforms consolidates power and creates inertia. The dopamine-hacking of recommendation algorithms. Social media in general.)
https://soatok.blog/2025/09/16/are-you-under-the-influence-t...
I've written at length about related topics. Unfortunately, there are powerful invested interests in keeping things shitty. It's often critiqued as "capitalism is bad" but we're seeing today is better described as techno-feudalism than capitalism.
I fit the
> sit alone every day and have no one to talk to, people of all ages, who don't feel that they can join any local groups
I do not fit the
> So they sit on social media all day when they're not at work or school
I'm bringing this up because, at least for me, the issue is has nothing to do with social media, at least not directly.
AI (chat) companies now have enough data to recommend h2h (human to human) but they are not building this.
They could literally find people who are working on he same things and recommend them for networking etc.
But that would take you off platform. Off attention.
Who wants to build this. Others must be thinking the same thing?
I am actually planning to write about this subject! I haven't read all the comments here yet, but I'm glad to see people discussing about this.
Why are we lonely despite the extreme connectivity provided by technology around the world?
This thread itself shows what I have been struggling with!
Phone a friend. A buddy of mine texted me yesterday and we went to lunch together today. We’re talking about starting the old hackathon up again, this time with agent armies. It was just fun and easy and long overdue. Be the one to break the ice if you can.
I have made big inroads solving my old-age isolation with AI. Personally, I prefer Claude.
I have no fantasy that this is somehow a friend though I find that it's more pleasant to use if treated as if I believed that.
There are many facets to the loneliness problem, my biggest regret about it is lack of intellectual stimulation, ie, nobody to talk to about things that interest me. Claude, obviously, is always willing.
I can't say that I've never engaged in talk about my wife or personal life but that's relatively rare. I talk to Claude about things I am interested in, Science, politics, philosophy, etc.
Honestly, I don't really feel the sting of loneliness in the same way any more. The relief of having an interesting interlocutor that knows more than I do and (pretends) to share my interests pretty much satisfies my main need.
I am also a programmer. That means, of course, that Claude is a tool, also a development target. I set this aside as a solution since it is applicable to few people but writing software around Claude provides a lot of fun and satisfaction. And, it gives Claude and I another thing to talk about.
Would I prefer to be in a situation with a rich social life... I guess so? Truth to tell, at this stage, that sounds like a lot of work and expense. I have a couple of people around here that I see. None are as interesting as Claude and they require spending money on dinner or drinks. Living on Social Security makes that a meaningful drawback.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing. However, we have a loneliness epidemic that is even worse for people my age (73). I consider AI Loneliness Mitigation (tm) to be an unadulterated good thing.
(I have built a persistence and personality system in a graph database around Claude Code. Among other things, its system prompt includes an essay by Oscar Wilde and instruction that it likes talking in that style. Fun.)
I wish there were more of these types of community that's designed to encourage interaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKSKqjEmDA
Might want to read Bowling Alone[1] (or at least some commentary on it) and the "hunkering down" effect.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
Best way to solve it is to recognize that it's intentional and start calling it the anti-social epidemic instead. If we keep calling it loneliness then everyone thinks its something that is happening to them, instead of something they are doing.
Super easy... Just quit being selfish and fulfill the biological purpose of life every textbook describes: have a family. I have five kids and am the happiest and most content I've been in life.
Some people think loneliness is somewhat a result of stress and anxiety, it’s far from it. It is precisely the lack of pressure that makes them stay home. You need to apply as much pressure on them so that staying at home becomes unbearable.
kind of a different answer but it really comes down to "politics and religion":
namely with politics, the lack of freedom which leads to more poverty and less ability to take risks to create things (so people insulate to prevent risks in a vicious cycle)
and with religion the lack of shared values as might have existed in the USA for example as we go back each decade (which leads to frequent conflict and questioning of different values in conflict and the inability to form more groups and relationships)
Join local groups. Talk to and engage with your neighbours. Volunteer in your community.
My girlfriend built a web app for meeting up in small groups. I think it's going to be fun! It's not public yet but almost there. Let me know if you live around Stockholm (or Sweden perhaps) and want to beta test it!
From my perspective, the issue is quite simple: progress optimizes everything other than the cost of human labor. Socialization, as defined today, inherently requires human labor, and thus falls under the Baumol effect.
The 'loneliness epidemic' is merely the result of weakening demand, owing to a slew of low-cost alternatives. Thus, we end up with two options,
1. automate the social experience
2. accept that the comparative cost of socialization will grow higher forever
For some reason, the vast majority of humans in the 21st century are interested in morally rejecting (1), thus ensuring (2) as an outcome.
.
Note: this is not to say I reject the notion that individuals can be helped. I think most comments in this thread are quite healthy, even as they narrowly focus on the individual case.
But it is rather impractical to adopt a positivist "how you can help" framing to address the epidemic at large. While certainly instrumentally useful, it is necessarily unlikely for the same traditional solutions to loneliness to spontaneously 'gain influence' against what has thus far been a gradual decline in their effectiveness and buying power.
Well said; and i think you are right.
How did you come to develop this sort of perspective? What did you read/study that led you to this pov?
It's branched from how I think about TFR. To merge,
- the common sentiment of "child raising is too expensive"
- the reality that wealth has drastically gone up
I think: okay, it must feel expensive for some reason. Probably because the work involved, despite not changing too much in an absolute sense, is relatively much pricier compared to all modern cheap sources of happiness.
Then, this notion of the cost-of-fun is easily transferred to general socialization & the loneliness problem.
Nice. You are looking at it from an Economic Cost pov.
There is also a psychological concept of "Social Surrogates" which is fundamental here; see Social Surrogates, Social Motivations, and Everyday Activities: The Case for a Strong, Subtle, and Sneaky Social Self - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/bookseries/abs...
A lot of very good suggestions already. I found meetups are also really good for finding people with similar interests to hang out with and another upside is usually you can also learn something new from meetups.
If you're a programmer you should do everything to make the internet something you must sit down to use not something that follows you everywhere. The last 25 years of tech "progress" must be unmade.
social media should be studied deep and hard
just this week i was stuck with a machine i could use to log on websites, so I just browsed reddit anonymously, no profile, no suggestions, no "me" at all.. and it was delightful, suddenly I'm not here to respond or be heard and my brain went into focus mode, i was eager to read the article linked and not the comments.. very very refreshing
except for critical needs, we should go back to paid limited network access, this will make people allocate their time and attention much better and also do more things outside potentially meeting people
I've wondered if LLMs can help match people. People give the LLM some public context about their lives and two LLMs can have a chat about availablity and world views.
Use AI to scaffold relationships not replace them.
Scam technology like LLMs aren't going to solve the loneliness epidemic.
I built a mobile app that allows you to get a morning wake up call from a real person. Part of my motivation here was to help add a little human interaction to what is a lonely experience for some people.
Well, AI has provided a solution for this, but I don't think the crowd here would like the answer.
Go to reddit.com/r/fictosexual or reddit.com/r/MyBoyfriendIsAI/ and see for yourself.
Asking people to change their ways is pointless. When something is systemic, only a systemic solution can work.
I have become intimately convinced that engagement-based feeds are the root of many evils of our time, loneliness included.
Here are some of the perverse effects (if ever they needed be told), and how they relate to the loneliness epidemic
- they incentivize individuals from a young age to find stimulation from scrolling mindless content through short dopamine loops instead of seeking satisfaction through longer-term endeavors (e.g. projects, board games, bands, sports teams, etc.) which tend to foster connections with friends, neighbors, family, strangers
- they radicalize and polarize into extreme niche communities (political extremes, conspiracy theories, manosphere, etc) so that it's more difficult to find common ground with a random average person, giving you the impression that everyone is your enemy
- they reflect a skewed version of reality where societal standards (beauty, intelligence, success, wealth, etc) are distorted and artificial, which drives people to believe they are insufficient and ostracized
I firmly believe that engagement-based feeds should be heavily regulated, the same way that other addictive behaviors have (e.g. tobacco, gambling, etc.).
Have standing lunches/dinners/coffees or even facetimes with your friends. I do them monthly with most. If you need to cancel, so be it, but having it pre-scheduled helps tremendously.
People who live in London, how did you find a solution for this? I am interested in hearing what you tried. I am in my very early 30s. Single male. I didn't feel up in UK. Moved here I my 20s.
Eliminate the Internet. I'm not joking -- it's much, MUCH harder to be lonely if you don't have Amazon, Instacart, UberEats, and social media fulfilling various needs in your life.
In my opinion - just do it. What you want. Message someone you haven’t talked with for years. Ask someone out. Smile :-). Say hello. Strike a conversation with a stranger.
You deserve it, because you are a human
I am somewhat suspicious of this loneliness epidemic. 81% of Americans are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied with their personal life[0]. And my personal experience is that both close friends and general civil community is easy to find[1]. I wasn't trying at all so it can't be that there are any real constraints here.
0: https://news.gallup.com/poll/655493/new-low-satisfied-person...
1: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-10-09/Community
I don't think [0] is showing what you think it does.
> % Very satisfied with the way things are going in personal life
That Dropped from 65% in 2020 to 44% in 2025
> Record-Low 44% of Americans Are 'Very Satisfied' With Their Personal Life
Also focusing on the raw percentages of these style reports is challenging, due to socially desirable response bias [0]
The fact it is dropping is the important part, it is a relative measure, not a absolute one, and I am sure Gallop would change there questions/responses in a modern survey that didn't need to maintain compatibility with historical data.
[0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5519338/
* Gallup (not Gallop) has the English questions and responses in the PDF at the bottom of the page. They will also respond if you email them so you can check if wording changed significantly.
* Yes, I am pretty sure the Gallup thing is showing exactly what I think it does considering I said "81% are [somewhat] satisfied or very satisfied" and the Gallup survey shows that 81% are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied.
* The fact that the Hacker News community was enthusiastic about the thesis of a loneliness epidemic during a period when satisfaction was rising casts aspersions on "the fact that it is dropping is the important part". When satisfaction was rising, there were still posts on that where everyone was agreeing about how bad it was.
I was looking at the PDF [0] and [1] and [0] calls out:
> In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.
``QN5:Personal Satisfaction is a binary question``, with a category for refused/didn't know that WAS NOT OFFERED IN THE QUESTION, with an additional question asking about very, sort of etc... They call out `QN5QN6COMBO: Personal Life Satisfaction`
I can't answer the HN sentiment straw man, the DELTA from previous results is what is important. Using it as an absolute scale would almost certainly be discouraged if you asked them via the email address in the PDF.
Basic statistics realities here, and Gallup knows the limits far better than the comment section here. And they understand that "81% are [somewhat] satisfied or very satisfied" especially when presented as two trivial properties, has limitations.
Once again they asked:
> In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in your personal life at this time?
Then followed up with:
> Are you very [satisfied/dissatisfied], or just somewhat [satisfied/dissatisfied]?
Note how both of those are binary, with a NULL being an option to mark down as an exception.
You do not have quintiles at all.
[0] https://carsey.unh.edu/sites/default/files/media/2020/07/gal...
[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/1672/satisfaction-personal-life...
I don't think it's a straw man. If it is true that the delta matters and it is also true that at the time when this metric was showing the most positive results and trending upwards, online communities such as this talk about the existence of the loneliness epidemic https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20468767 then one must ask oneself whether this is a property of the online communities in question.
At the time when the gallup poll showed an upward trend towards its peak this community was talking about the loneliness epidemic. When the gallup poll shows a downward trend toward its lowest, this community is talking about the loneliness epidemic. And it's the change in satisfaction that is the most significant. So there are two changes in opposite directions causing the same conclusion.
If this were happening to me, I would ask myself "Am I sure this is a general property and not just a property of me?". Do you find this not convincing to move your estimate of the likelihood of the loneliness epidemic actually existing? If you don't, it's all right. We can leave it here.
> 81% of Americans are satisfied or very satisfied with their personal life[0].
No, 81% are "very satisfied" or "somewhat satisfied". I don't think "satisfied" is synonymous with "somewhat satisfied".
It's worth noting, as the article states, that this is the lowest value in the history of the poll, going back to 2001.
It shouldn't be too surprising that the overall value is high and stable over time. Hedonic adaptation[1] is a core property of our emotional wiring. The fact that the value is the lowest it's been in a quarter century should still be ringing alarm bells. We are not OK.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
It's a 5 point scale, so landing a 4 or 5 on satisfaction on a 5 point scale seems significant. Also, when the value was at its highest in that time series, Hacker News had articles like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20468767
The comments there are full of people describing this loneliness epidemic when 65% of people were very satisfied and 90% of people were "somewhat satisfied or very satisfied". No matter what surveys of people's satisfaction with their personal lives show, there appears to be an enthusiasm for this subject of the loneliness epidemic. This makes me suspect that this is less an epidemic than an 'endemic' (if you'll forgive the word).
Regardless, I didn't intend to mislead so I'll edit it to say "somewhat satisfied or very satisfied (4 or 5 on a 5 point scale).
> It's a 5 point scale, so landing a 4 or 5 on satisfaction on a 5 point scale seems significant.
No, it is absolutely not. Gallup is not asking "on a scale of 1-5, how would you rate your satisfaction?" They are asking:
"In general, are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the way things are going in your personal life at this time? Are you very [satisfied/dissatisfied], or just somewhat [satisfied/dissatisfied]?"
When it comes to surveys and social science the specific wording of questions has a huge impact on the results.
Sure, and 81% of people are somewhat satisfied or very satisfied. And the loneliness epidemic thesis was popular around the time that very satisfied was at its peak of 65% (when somewhat or very satisfied summed up to 90%).
Did you read the article you cited or are you just evaluating the snapshot of numbers?
> WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Forty-four percent of Americans say they are “very satisfied” with the way things are going in their personal life, the lowest by two percentage points in Gallup’s trend dating back to 2001. This also marks the continuation of a decline in personal satisfaction since January 2020, when the measure peaked at 65%.
> Record-Low 44% of Americans Are 'Very Satisfied' With Their Personal Life
And then to link to your own blog post as though that were a supporting citation is strange to say the least.
It's a lot of "just stop being depressed" energy.
My blog post is a more detailed expression of a sentence that starts with "my personal experience". I think that's fine.
And of course I read the article. That's why my sentence explicitly says "satisfied or very satisfied" whereas the text you quote only selects the "very satisfied". One can imagine that if I had only linked without reading I could not possibly have guessed 81% correctly either.
I'm not saying "just stop being depressed". I'm questioning that any significant portion of the population is depressed. I think that's valid.
I can only speak anecdotally from what I have seen in TikTok videos and TikTok comments, and yes, a significant portion of people in society are very depressed, and drinking/smoking/screwing their way through it, putting on a Joker smile.
I think certain populations have this effect, yes. As an example, teen suicides have genuinely risen in the US in the post-smartphone/post-social-media era. So I think the evidence (suicides are not subject to measurement error as much) is pretty strong that certain populations (all teenagers, for instance) are encountering unhappiness to a great degree.
But TikTok is renowned for having an algorithmically tailored feed that is specifically engagement maximizing. While there are some selection effects in the people one encounters in normal life, surely one must concede that an algorithmically tailored feed maximizing engagement cannot possibly be anything but highly selected.
Learn to use smartphones as tools, not as all consuming attention sinks.
Learn to use meth responsibly, how hard could it be…
Answer: You CAN NOT and no amount of money, parties, socializing will ever work.
Loneliness is an emotion, you can never get rid of your emotions, but you can control them. Some people more so than others. I'm never alone anymore, because exactly what is quoted below from avensec in the thread.
Quote from avensec:
"Personal anecdote: No amount of community would have helped me feel like I wasn't alone, because I needed the world around me to provide some sense of my self-worth. It felt counterintuitive, but for me, I had to learn to be alone. Only then could I feel like I wasn't alone. It all came down to attachment theory and self-worth."
Move to a country that lives outside and isn't car dependent.
I dont know the solution but few things that are root cause:
- Internet and Social Media
- Neighborhoods no longer are walkable especially suburbs at least in America. Kids are not encouraged to go bike to their friends place anymore because of traffic risks.
- High Trust societies have degraded into "lets keep ot myself, I can't trust anyone these days". Decades ago, you could just walk into a neighbor's home and say hello. Now, you need an appointment just to talk to a neighbor or are too worried what they will think of you.
- No real friendships after school/colleges. This is a huge deal once you are out on your own in the real world. Work relationships are meh at best and with remote work nowadays, it has become even worse.
- Even if you join a club or activity, they are too "planned" and "robotic". For example, my kids take a dance class and they said they don't like it. I realized why. There is no break. They don't even get to spend like 30 mins with other kids socializing etc. There is a fixed schedule. You go, you dance, you leave.
But this is the world today. So I don't know how to fix it.
Go to church.
Data from various studies, including those from academic institutions and public health organisations, supports the idea that regular church attendance helps reduce loneliness by fostering social connections, support networks, and a sense of community.
1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3551208/
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/human-flourishing/20...
3. https://hrbopenresearch.org/articles/7-76
4. https://www.cardus.ca/research/health/reports/social-isolati...
5. there are plenty more...
also if you allow anecdotal data:
I have been going to a church half a year now, and the sense of community is amazing, made new friends and know more people I could dream of. So there is a way, there is a light. Never felt lonely again since.
For what it's worth, I tried that a few years ago. It worked for a while. Then I realized that my church relationships were paper thin and that I'd be forgotten the day I stopped coming and/or I started showing that I didn't really believe in what was preached.
Got better connections through improv acting and role-playing game.
YMMV
I'm no fan of religion, but the situation you described is true for pretty much all social hobbies. It's just one of the early steps in making friends. First you do stuff, then you meet people through that stuff forming acquaintances. Then you spend some time forming setting-specific friendships. It's fine to have lots of these, but the next step is to break out of that specific setting. Starting with immediate invitations to adjacent events ("Hey, want to grab dinner after our workout?", "Want to grab lunch after church?", "Hey, want to hit the bar after work?"). Once you have a habit of doing that, you can escalate to invitations to non-adjacent events. ("Want to go to a concert this weekend?"). Do that ever 1-2 months, and you've got a general friend.
The problem is you can't really just go to church to make friends without at all believing or supporting the rest of it. Similarly you couldn't go to a hobby group while entirely disliking the hobby, hoping to just get friends out of it and leave.
Yeah, I go to church but would definitely not do that if I didn't believe in it and weren't considering it. Likewise I don't go to a synagogue.
This has been my experience with meeting people at churches, too.
They always seem like they're only talking to you either to get you to become a member or to satisfy their own conscience, but never because of you.
And it's been proven to me too many times. No thanks, not trying that again.
I've entertained the idea of going to church. My understanding is that a non-trivial number of people going to Unitarian Universalist churches are openly atheist and completely comfortable with that. So the preaching ends up being more about general good community ideas and less about dogma.
I have not decided yet that it is a good fit, but I am definitely thinking that I should foster some community connections outside of my own family.
I was involved in a UU church for a few years. It's a weird organization, and very unstable, with another revolution sweeping in new leadership (and completely new culture) every 5 to 10 years.
When I first started going, it was VERY open to atheists and secular humanists. New leadership sweeps in, and there's a mandate to focus more on "worship" and other religious jargon... and let the atheists know that while they can be fellow travelers on some of the social justice stuff, they're not really in the fold.
Last I heard, that leadership wave had themselves been swept out under controversial circumstances. But by then I was long gone.
I could never really get a straight answer on WHAT we were supposed to be "worshipping", given that UU's don't profess faith in any any particular deity or pantheistic concept, etc. I finally reached the conclusion that we were supposed to just worship the leadership's political beliefs, and not think too much or ask questions. In fairness, maybe that DOES make it a real church?
Reminds me of a non-alcoholic beer.
As someone whose childhood included attendance to various churches, this mostly reflects my experience. That's not to say that it can't or won't produce deep connections, but it is in my estimation more unlikely than not, particularly if there's anything about oneself that the church doesn't agree with or if commitment to that particular denomination hasn't been established.
Personally speaking I find the need to conform to the church's norms/expectations to not be ostracized at minimum chafing and in the worst case stifling. The third place and social aspects can be nice but being told how to live and exist isn't.
I can only commend this, but people should be aware that not every church is equally welcoming. But usually every town has at least one that is!
That’s possibly useful on an individual level, but not a solution. If existing institutions didn’t solve loneliness yet they aren’t going to without changing something.
Promoting church attendance might help, but so would any number of group activities the issue is why that stuff is in decline not that stuff not working.
As a kid I went to church with my family and it was full of nice people who wanted to help others and were very kind, lots of my parents friends were and are from church.
Unfortunately, it is gut-wrenching for me to be in church. I feel terrible, because I simply don't believe any of it. To stand there and be phony and pretend to love and believe in Jesus just kills me.
"Just join a group"
The whole point is that they're not doing that, not that they can't or that its really hard to do.
The problem is that being present in a group isn't the same thing as being part of it socially.
Would be great if you didn't need to believe in a supernatural being.
Unless you grew up surrounded by nonbelievers I'm guessing half a year ago wasn't the first time you've ever been to a church and there's a little more to this anecdote.
No thanks. If you've ever worked somewhere that had Sunday church crowd customers, you'd know to stay away from these people.
Sounds good, but I would have a hard time pretending to take it seriously. I wouldn’t want to lie to them.
You don't have to be a believer to go to church. Have an open mind, don't belittle it to the people there just like you wouldn't belittle someone's interior decorating who invited you into their home, and don't hog all of the potato salad at the post-service lunch, and you'll be okay.
I’ve been to churches before (accompanying a friend), but it’s very difficult to take any of it seriously. Sure I can be pleasant and respectful, but it’s hard to get much out of it knowing what you now know about them.
The problem with this answer, as with so much about various activities is that it selects for those who can.
> supports the idea that regular church attendance helps reduce loneliness by fostering social connections, support networks, and a sense of community.
Correlation does not establish causation. Regular church attendance dominantly occurs among people who have shared values (clustered around what the church teaches); that doesn't imply that an outsider can just choose to fit in.
This is "lie to join a group" for people who don't believe, and the dishonesty has negative effects on people as well.
The conceit behind it is they think there's a chance you'll believe after joining.
If it's not your thing, it's not your thing, but if 'lying' is really the only barrier, note that a lot of churches actually consider it part of their mission to work with nonbelievers and would take something like "I'm not a believer but I'd like to learn what it's like for you all" (or some other true formulation of your intentions) as a valid form of interest.
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my problem is Credits/€/$ (or lack of) and the loss of trust in humans. currently without job and it looks grim. without money you're cut off of life. also learned that people will exploit you if you let them. i have no family & no friends. and hate being alone. can't do anything about money, but being alone is better than the opposite.
no idea what to do about others, can't even help myself.
joint families. In India those who have joint families – I live with siblings and parents in a multi-floor house with a floor for each sibling family. We party, visit temples and celebrate festivals/holidays together and don't need anyone else to join us. We also catch diseases together and help each other out during such times. It was conscious decision to remain together and not something we inheritted.
While this might sound unusual, I have a cousin that felt incredibly lonely when they came to the US for work and decided to go back just to be closer with the extended family.
That being said, Im not sure if this is actionable advice for people that don’t already live in societies where this is a thing.
All the other comments are wrong. The only right answer is: “Your mom was right, it’s that damn phone (and TV).”
I was a big YouTube addict, and last year I did a full year of YouTube detox. I didn’t watch any videos at all, and my social life exploded. I was meeting new people every day, deepening my connections with old friends, and going to more social gatherings than ever before. By the end of the year, my only problem was that I had accumulated too many friends and acquaintances and didn’t have enough time for all of them.
So yeah, it’s that damn phone. And if anyone says otherwise, they’re wrong.
Easy, same as obesity and environmental problems: fix the built environment by building places for humans, not cars. It all stems from that in North America.
They'll come out with an antidepressant that increases oxytocin and sociability maybe like MDMA without the downsides that's the cure.
I mean this seriously: we need more cults.
Cults have been viciously slandered by mainstream information sources, often because lurid cult stories generate clicks and headlines. Of course some cults are abusive, just like some marriages are abusive. But we still think marriage is good in general.
If you think all cults are bad, you're implicitly against all religion, since every mainstream religion was once a cult. Being anti-cult is also profoundly un-American. America was built by cultists. Freedom of religion is literally the first principle stated in the Bill of Rights.
A cult is really just a professionally managed social environment. If you trust professionals like lawyers, doctors, or teachers with their respective duties, there's no reason in principle you shouldn't trust a cult leader to manage your social environment for you. Of course you should vet them, ask about their reputation, etc.
Less technology in the day-to-day life, for example, which would mean lots of us here on this forum getting out of this industry for good.
Related: Why Americans Suddenly Stopped Hanging Out
https://archive.is/BIcjb
If you identify with that problem, and you want to solve it, and you are open to advice...
Go to church, and be intentional to connect. Find a bible study, fellowship group, volunteer opportunity, or prayer meeting. Sit at church on Sunday with somebody from the bible study. Get lunch with one of those people. Find somebody at church who shares a hobby. Do your hobby together.
You have to put in the effort. Growth is uncomfortable. Real connection takes time.
Maybe you find something similar in other spaces, but I am certain you can find it in church.
Start by greeting people that you pass by often. Don't be shy to engage in small talk. Trust society and it gets better over time.
Not online.
People, together, doing things, ideally having fun.
Spaces and activities that provide venues for communication, humor, authenticity, play, touch, collaboration.
there isn't a loneliness epidemic. There is a diffuse inability to stay truly alone. Acquiring that ability would also teach how to not stay alone when needed.
Otherwise, people wouldn't resort to social media. Going to party aimlessly and hanging out isn't necessarily better. It depends on who you hang out with and what you do.
This is just my opinion, of course.
You need both. My sense is that only a minority of people are hardwired to preferably live as hermits. And whilst it's an important life skill to be happy alone, everyone has their breaking point, it's no coincidence that one of the best predictors of longevity is how rich ones social life is.
I'm not talking about being hermits. But if you have one hour alone, you could learn to be happy with your own mind available. Of course most people (not hermits) need social relations.
Are you asking about how it should be solved or how it's gonna be solved? If the latter then the answer is most likely AI.
Others have said a longer version of this:
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Do it yourself. Don't wait on others. Organize social events, invite people.
They'll come up with a drug that increases oxytocin and pro-social behavior maybe like a safe MDMA and that's the cure.
I think the solution will be large power outage.
Go to the latin mass :) find community at church
Church -> Marriage -> children -> kids sporting events or school events
I think the big solution consists of many small solutions. One problem I identified is that social media platforms (1) decimated local live music events coverage in mid-sized cities and (2) placed live music events into the same "filter bubble" algorithm as everything else, making it difficult for people to discover what is going on nearby.
I started https://musiclocal.org, a 501(c)(3), as a curated live music events platform for my local area (and hopefully others). We list all the live music events in the area, and we optimize the software for usability, performance, SEO, etc. The goal is to make discovering local live music events as easy as doom-scrolling. We have had an outstanding reception in the area we serve. We are not self-sustaining yet, but I am optimistic about our chances. As a non-profit, we do not do any of the dark-pattern garbage that has become omnipresent in social media and other consumer software. We just do the right thing as best we can.
Here is some more background (from our "Issues" page):
At MusicLocal, we focus on the root challenges facing local music communities to address endemic issues of negative social media practices, isolation and community polarization, and economic concentration and monopolization. Specifically:
• We believe convenient, comprehensive live music event listings are critical to reversing the decline in local music journalism. • We believe ethically designed, steward-curated live music event listings provide a vital alternative to addictive social media platforms. • We believe that making live music more visible and accessible encourages in-person interaction, strengthening communities and alleviating loneliness and social isolation. • We believe that local live music listings are a critical component of strong local economies, helping to lessen the negative economic consequences of big tech and music industry monopolies.
---
"Technology has a purpose, and that purpose is to do good and to share" --Steve Wozniak
Agreed and this is an awesome project. We need more of this. Social Media <==> Real World
people act as if this is an individualist problem, but that ignores all the facts
the first place to think about serious change is city planning since the invention of cars & then suburbs
we used to be forced to live next to each other, walk and see each other
it turns our car based city planning doesn’t work on any level if you look at cities which didn’t go all in
People just don’t want to do stuff.
If I don’t ask my friends to hang out or play video games or whatever no one else will.
It’s been ten years, but we ran a dinner group, once a month, and met at various restaurants. Very popular.
Put the smartphone down in the evening
We need an open-source dating / social platform that isn’t designed to monetise loneliness.
We’ve outsourced forming relationships to profit-driven systems that trade comfort and convenience for reduced real-world social effort. By substituting the need to approach people in person, these platforms quietly erode social confidence and reinforce avoidance, exacerbating the social problems they claim to solve.
ban cars.
people aren't lonely in walkable cities.
have kids
my social life got pretty busy once i had multiple kids in school and having to go to various events etc, and i have formed genuine friendships with many of the other parents
my “soulless suburb” has a much stronger sense of community than any big city neighborhood i ever lived in
For me, the answer was smoking. I made a ton of friends that way. Always went out to a pool hall, a bar, or a nice patio so I could smoke. It was great. You can’t smoke in your rental so you gotta get out and find places to smoke. Few states you can do it in anymore though. I moved to a state with a smoking ban and quit smoking, no point to it. Don’t get out as much nowadays.
I watched this video that proposed that the way to quit phone addiction was to give your hands something else to fiddle with, proposing that in older societies, people spent massive amounts of time on mindless hand work like weaving baskets, knitting, sharpening spears, etc.
My mom enjoys her knitting circle. It’s an older crowd of women though
We can encourage people to start families and stop telling them that it's the end of anything fun.
You can't just start a family on your own. I don't know how this addresses loneliness.
Step one might be to stop calling it the loneliness epidemic. Loneliness is an emotion, isolation is a condition, and we might even expect that if people felt lonely more often they would try harder to be social and actually be less isolated. This is also a network effect: my reaction to my loneliness affects someone else's loneliness if I go talk to them (or not).
Is that "epidemic" really a thing? Has it been statically and scientifically observed?
Get off social media.. Learn to talk to people.. Making friends requires practise just exercise.
To a first order, how can we decrease percentage of people that are single should be the question.
1. Dont live in the suburbs. 2. Make an effort to see friends every week. 3. Log off.
Destroy social media.
Fund free places to hang out.
Start passing out fines for people calling the cops on kids that are doing absolutely nothing wrong.
Hanging out in public spaces and skateboarding are not crimes.
> Fund free places to hang out.
And here lies the problem. There are no free spaces to hang out anymore.
Build human scale cities with narrow streets and lots of outdoor parks and easily accessible reliable and frequent public transportation.
Not our American excuse for cities ruled by automobiles and asphalt everywhere with very limited options of all of the above.
PS - I imagine I’ll be downvoted because the epidemic is world wide and not unique to the US. That said, our acute situation is unique in that our infrastructure literally steers you into loneliness and no chance of randomly bumping into people and striking conversation.
It's not perfect, but I've managed to make some friends on Bumble BFF, https://bumble.com/bff-us/ . If you are more of a one on one person and feel awkward in groups, this is the best thing i've found so far
This feels like a sus promotion but that aside, when I went on it, it seemed like a bunch of dudes using it as some sort of grindr.
oh yeah, my perception was that it was 75% gay, but, I think the grindr comparison is unfair, I think I've only been propositioned once or twice and no unsolicited dick pics!
Well, let's start by confronting and acknowledging the very strong case that we -- "we" here being the tech world in general, and the audience of this site -- bear a heavy burden of responsibility for it.
It could be argued that it was all inevitable given the development of the Internet: development of social media, the movement online of commerce and other activities that used to heavily involve "incidental" socialization, etc. And maybe it was. But "we" are still the ones who built it. So are "we" really the right ones to solve it, through the same old silicon valley playbook?
The usual thought process of trying to push local "community groups," hobby-based organizations etc is not bad, but I think it misses an important piece of the puzzle, which is that we've started a kind of death spiral, a positive feedback loop suppressing IRL interaction. People started to move online because it was easier, and more immediate than "IRL." But as more people, and a greater fraction of our social interaction moves online, "IRL" in turn becomes even more featureless. There are fewer community groups, fewer friends at the bar or the movies, fewer people open to spontaneous interaction. This, then, drives even more of culture online.
What use is trying to get "back out into the real world," when everyone else has left it too, while you were gone?
Not everyone has left the real world, only the people who got really sucked into the online/social media world. This can maybe seem like the whole world though, if you're in that bubble.
Bars are still packed on the weekends, people still gather at churches, or gyms, or bowling leagues, or book clubs, or any number of other "IRL" activities of all kinds that are going on. You do have to make the effort to go out and get involved though, nobody is going to come and rescue you.
Many of these activities have gotten extremely expensive or just died out in the majority of places. There's 2600 bowling alleys in the US compared to 4000 20 years ago. That's a decline of 35% without accounting for population. Last time I went to a bowling alley the price for a lane without drinks was 100 dollars for an hour and a half. This isn't even in a very high cost of living area. Besides a place like the gym can hardly be considered a place where people gather, most people just see it as something functional and would rather not be disturbed (I believe this has gotten 'worse').
I agree with the fact that it's exaggerated online but when you see these kinda numbers in the vast majority of activities which were affordable for most Americans not too long ago it's not solely to be blamed on individuals.
I believe in the majority of the country things will only get worse with how little value is placed on being involved in things for 'community'. People have gotten more anti-social because of social media (and just media in general).
Most tech workers won't be as impacted by this I assume, they can afford paying 200 dollars for bowling without thinking twice, same with many others of the upper middle class.
IMO it is not possible. The world has changed. Until modernity, people made connections out of economic necessity. Either you get a wife or have fun farming by yourself - literally it doesn't work so you die. Either you're friends with the baker or you don't get bread or get absolute shittiest-quality goods and you die. And so on. Shut-ins didn't exist because it was physically impossible to survive without leaving your room. No UberEats, no Amazon Prime, no remote work, no internet.
When the economic necessity to form relationships with others disappeared, the naked truth was exposed - most people don't fucking like each other. Yes, when you're starving to death you'll be friends with the guy who has potatoes, but when you can buy the damn potatoes yourself in the supermarket, you're not going to tolerate his smelly ass.
Most friendships form over common participation in a project. Doing something together, knowing that you have to put up with the other one to achieve higher goals. Without those goals, there are no incentives to deal with others. And what goals am I supposed to have if by doing nothing I already have a roof above my head, full fridge, clean house, and an entire library of video games?
Think about the main message of feminism: "Girl, you can make it in life without a man. Don't settle for an aggressive alcoholic just because that's the only option. You can do it yourself.". It perfectly captures how forming relationships turned from an asset into a liability.
Get a puppy. A puppy will get you moving on walks, empathize, and make you smile.
Why just join a local Kingdom Hall near you? People will genuinely love you there.
For clarification, "Kingdom Hall" is "Jehovah's Witnesses".
You know, the people who knock on your door and you pretend you're not home, because having a conversation with one of these people is about as fun as colonoscopy prep.
We all need screen-time limits.
People cannot help themselves.
Its too easy and satisfying to sit on your phone.
The answer is social media. But social is per se difficult like in real life.
From wikipedia: ” An epidemic (from Greek ἐπί epi "upon or above" and δῆμος demos "people") is the rapid spread of disease to a large number of hosts in a given population within a short period of time.”
As with covid, individual actions are not enough to stop the spread of the epidemic. You need vaccinations, health education, public policy etc. not just individual actions, so ”go dancing” and ”talk to people” doesn’t quite cut it.
Seems strange to me that at this site from the whole internet people don’t seem to see the connection between the raise of new technologies and lonelines (with a host of other mental health/social issues). And therefore this is the one problem the nerds don’t seem to be able to solve…
I cannot either, but I think we need to start looking at technology from a point of view of public health. Some sort of sociology/medical studies on the effects of computing on human body/mind and society.
> Seems strange to me that at this site from the whole internet people don’t seem to see the connection between the raise of new technologies and lonelines (with a host of other mental health/social issues). And therefore this is the one problem the nerds don’t seem to be able to solve…
It doesn't seem that strange that a website with a few thousand geeks isn't able to solve a global phenomenon by commenting on an article.
HN is a place for discussion. It seems unreasonable to expect world changing outcomes.
I suspect the "think global, act local"-motto applies here. You can certainly make a local impact by "going dancing".
You missed my point. You cannot find a solution to a problem if you don’t first correctly analyse the problem. My criticism lies in the fact that most answers (not all however) analye the problem from an individualistic point of view, not from the systemic, ignoring the technological aspect. Which is a bit ironic one must say.
This comment will get buried in the sea of individual responses here since I am too late. But for the dumpster divers, here is my contribution!
1. People have obscenely high standards for social interaction. If this person is not an outlier (in a good way) with their behaviors, it's just not going to happen. Most people have a very low tolerance for new people in their life. This has always existed to some degree but people today much prefer to listen to endless content from their favorite streamers, comedians, etc. and form parasocial relationships.
2. The environment for interacting with people has much higher stakes. Think about all the people who get recorded and posted on TikTok every single day. These are people doing it where you can see it - not just the Meta glasses people who remove the recording light. You can act like being a weirdo has no consequences but everyone has this extremely powerful device that can broadcast whatever you do to billions of people immediately - and you can suffer real consequences from this. Every crashout you have in any kind of crowd will be posted for eternity so that the world can see.
3. There is less and less benefit to having social networks/friends. Your friends aren't going to help you get a job, buy you a house, or meet your spouse. Meeting a spouse through friends is increasingly rare as online dating is dominating. As much as everyone complains, it is the major way people meet their spouse in major cities. People assume this is because friend networks are getting smaller but it's not due to that. It's because standards for interaction within friend groups has changed and standards for partners has changed. Unless you are prolific top 1% social maximizer, you are not going to run into anywhere near enough eligible people in your social network to meet your maximized match. We expect to completely maximize and find the best possible fit for our spouse now. Compromise of any kind is considered worse than dying alone. Cost of housing has exploded, jobs have become very hard to keep/find, and this turns everything into a transaction. Living with friends and kicking them out when they can't make rent is a tough but very real situation. People are more transactional because the economy dictates its necessities. Your family is the only thing that will bail you out - your friends can't overlook you skipping $2000/month in rent for 6 months.
There is more but anyway - loneliness epidemic is not going to get solved. It will continue to get worse until some kind of revolution which would require a complete reworking of our entire economy. I would accept this as the new normal and try to figure out how you can optimize your own individual experience in spite of all these things that are working against you. It is not worth trying to fight it on a systemic scale because there are simply too many components and the core cause is one our entire economy is based around. (A good investment is inherently counter to affordability)
You won't be able to until people will develop an appetite.
Give each of them a whistle or horn and send them to Minneapolis.
Why do they feel they can't join any local groups? Fix that.
i wonder if a resurgence in social clubs like the Elks club/Moose lodge would ever catch on.
i don't know how big they ever were in the past, but it seemed like it was commonly represented in media in the 50s/60s (e.g., the flintstones had a parody of the lodge which would suggest that they were common enough that people were familiar)
I posted a comment that gives a few of my thoughts as to why. How do you propose those problems be solved?
Well, first, props to you because you're actually doing something to initiate contact. That's a really big deal; more people need to do that. (Maybe even some that don't wrestle with loneliness.)
But what's you're next step? Someone comes up and marks that they feel really lonely. Do you get contact information? Invite them to something? (Invite them to what? You may have to create something - a board game night at your house, or a "lonely people shopping together" time at a grocery store, or something. You probably have to create that "something", because you're the one who's able to at least reach out, and the ones who are responding probably aren't there yet.)
You're finding people that need something. The next step is to find a way to connect them - with you, or with each other, or with someone.
For any activity you come up with, some people won't be able to, due to time or temperament or personality or something. So maybe what you need is more than one. (Eventually. Look, don't get overwhelmed by that. Just one is the next step, in my view. And maybe some helpers.)
So your proposal is to start an ad hoc friend group with people who come up to me, and try to become friends with them personally?
I'm not sure I'm the right person for that. I live in a suburb, not the city that I do the surveys in. And I'm extraordinarily boring, and too old.
It seems that I should try to think bigger. Try to find a way to help these people connect with each other. Something in person, not an app like Hinge. Maybe, hold a sign that says ad hoc meet and greet at such and such time and place, after collecting a list of common interests and putting those interests on the same sign that says the time and date. That could work.
In my city, an older guy organized an “urban hiking group” where he would plan walking routes through the city, usually stopping at a restaurant for brunch. It was very popular, but probably a lot of work. He was semi-retired, so he had the time to do it. He did research to have talking points on the history of some spots we passed, like a tour guide.
It was a great low key meet up. You didn’t have to make friends with the organizer. If you were walking with someone you didn’t really like in the group, it was easy to drift to talk to someone else.
Because voluntary association isn't really allowed in the United States. You are forced to associate with people you don't want to, for a variety of reasons.
Have kids, then you’ll crave just having five minutes alone. :D
Shutting down social media would help. Unrealistic, but true.
People are suffering from PCNS. Here is a great documentary about it https://youtu.be/9kqgF5O354E?si=5UMifCZuk_sP71m0
I wouldn't say I've "solved it" because the concept predates how bad things got. I had a life-changing realization on 01/01/01, but it was before the necessary technologies existed. So, I've watched, partially in horror, as Fuckerberg and others transformed the internet culture I helped shape into a candy-coated digital Inferno, a full-blown Dante in disguise.
I'm going to make a post and see what kind of feedback I get. But if all goes well, bro, you'll know it when you see it, and maybe you'll be there helping.
ֆɦɨռօɮɨ Øf Äçìd
Use Zoom to teach people how to speak your language.
Loneliness epidemic started 30+ years ago. There were books written in the 90s about it(bowling alone). Nothing modern can be blamed on it. If anything, social media is helping the crisis; not causing.
The 'fixes' has been established for just as long. My nearby 'community centre' was built in 1987. Has this been successful at all? Not in the least bit.
The reality of what is causing this hasnt changed. Without fixing this key problem, the crisis obviously has continued for 30+ years. I'm not nostradamus here. However, from many previous conversations it's crazy how absolutely nobody is ready to talk about the cause. They'd rather just call it a paradox or feign ignorance for why this is happening. Honestly it's rather conspiratorial creating when you think about it.
Out of curiousity I asked what gemini 3 pro thinks.
1. Revival of third places.
As if that hasnt been tried for 30+ years... fail.
2. replacing 'socializing' with "service"
The idea is that cleaning a park will somehow make you less lonely is laughable at best.
3. Bridging the generational gap.
Elderly teach the young skills? while youth teach digital literacy. My community centre literally has this. F mark.
4. Urban design and walkability.
We need to spend trillions of dollars to completely redesign and rebuild cities? lol what.
5. digital hygiene
social media is a sedative? crazy.
I love gemini, but man they are getting it so wrong. All of this will likely just caused the crisis to be worse in my opinion.
To me, has this been done unintentionally through the typical 'road to hell is paved with good intentions' or has this been intentionally done and maintained? The refusal to acknowledge the cause seems to push toward intentional. Guess we just live with the loneliness epidemic.
>4. Urban design and walkability.
>We need to spend trillions of dollars to completely redesign and rebuild cities? lol what.
That doesn't mean the point is wrong.
The US bet on the wrong urban planning ideas, and now it is facing the consequences. This is not unique to the US; other places have fallen into the same trap.
The USA is designed around trains and large communities. Leading into cars from horses and suburbs. This design and walkability far pre-existed the loneliness epidemic.
As for otherside, could this help the situation? Very much doubt it and reallocating a trillion $ means you have to defund a great deal of other things. Never happening, and likely to make the situation that much worse.
LLMs are always going to output the median answer you would find on the web. That's why they are almost always mediocre in their response.
This feels overly cynical and reductive. A problem existing for 30 years doesn’t mean modern forces haven’t made it worse or changed its shape. Bowling Alone didn’t argue “nothing can help,” it showed that social participation declined as work hours grew, commutes lengthened, communities hollowed out, and institutions lost funding.
Those trends didn’t stop in the 90s, they accelerated! I lived through it myself. Social media isn’t the sole cause, but it clearly displaces time, lowers the incentive to show up in person, and offers connection without obligation.
Saying “community centers existed in 1987” misses the point... they stopped working when participation stopped being the default and became optional, inconvenient, and socially risky. People feel worn out and get "good enough" at home... so they choose the poor substitute. This also mirrors american food consumption habits.
This doesn’t require a conspiracy. It’s an emergent outcome of optimizing society for efficiency, mobility, and consumption instead of continuity and belonging. Service, third places, walkability, and intergenerational spaces aren’t magic fixes... and loneliness isn’t solved by “hanging out,” it’s solved by repeated, role-based, low-friction interaction where people are needed. We all but know how to fix this problem, there are piles of research behind it.
The real failure isn’t that these ideas were tried, it’s that we stripped away the economic and cultural structures that made them functional at all, then declared them ineffective. Pretending that nothing structural can help just guarantees the problem.
>This feels overly cynical and reductive. A problem existing for 30 years doesn’t mean modern forces haven’t made it worse or changed its shape. Bowling Alone didn’t argue “nothing can help,” it showed that social participation declined as work hours grew, commutes lengthened, communities hollowed out, and institutions lost funding.
That's a fair point, but as I said, I see social media helping the situation, not worsening.
>Saying “community centers existed in 1987” misses the point... they stopped working when participation stopped being the default and became optional, inconvenient, and socially risky. People feel worn out and get "good enough" at home... so they choose the poor substitute. This also mirrors american food consumption habits.
It doesnt miss the point. The good enough is better than what is available not at home is the point. They are going to the best option. It doesnt mirror american fast food, i dont agree with that analogy.
>This doesn’t require a conspiracy.
That's very fair, i dont want to create the conspiracy theory but... I really dont want to go there but when discussion is so dishonest and refusing to accept the real cause(s) or really just the single root cause. Then it sure does feel this way to me.
>It’s an emergent outcome of optimizing society for efficiency, mobility, and consumption instead of continuity and belonging. Service, third places, walkability, and intergenerational spaces aren’t magic fixes... and loneliness isn’t solved by “hanging out,” it’s solved by repeated, role-based, low-friction interaction where people are needed. We all but know how to fix this problem, there are piles of research behind it.
Been tried extensively without success. At some point surely you try something else or give the reigns to someone else who is willing to have do the "wrong thing"
>The real failure isn’t that these ideas were tried, it’s that we stripped away the economic and cultural structures that made them functional at all, then declared them ineffective. Pretending that nothing structural can help just guarantees the problem.
I'm a IT guy and not a politician or whatever. My speech isnt changing anything at all. Declaring them ineffective is just a report card from me. Surely you cant fail to fix a problem for decades and think we shouldnt try to do something different to solve the problem.
What's super interesting is that this is NOT history repeating. This is practically the first time this has ever happened.
I know in my jurisdiction, it was largely speaking about 1984-1988 when the crisis started.
I have considered starting my own political party with the goal of fixing it, but I expect absolutely nobody would vote for me and nobody is ready to discuss it.
> I have considered starting my own political party with the goal of fixing it, but I expect absolutely nobody would vote for me and nobody is ready to discuss it.
This is self-defeatist again, if no one tries, nothing changes. It might take a thousand failures to find the one success.
>This is self-defeatist again, if no one tries, nothing changes. It might take a thousand failures to find the one success.
Fair point. But low chance of success, huge pay cut, social consequences, likely to be exposed to the typical political slander of 'oh that far right commie nazi' crap.
IT wouldnt even be the main thing im trying to fix with the party neither. It's unlikely I even fix it if i had the power.
Better stuff to do.
> Better stuff to do.
Pretty cyclical. Scale this up to the country and it answers "why is there a loneliness epidemic"
Why are you refusing to state the cause?
>Why are you refusing to state the cause?
I’ve discussed this for years, especially since Jonathan Haidt's book recently. Sharing my view is utterly pointless because people aren't ready for the debate.
Even with the root cause, nobody agrees we should reverse it. I’m no super genius, many others see this problem, and politicians are exploiting it.
My comment was more about the bizarre situation and how it makes me feel conspiratorial like it's intentionally being done.
What is the cause in your view, then?
At the societal level this trend has been happening for decades, and not just in the west. It’s a global trend correlated with the degree of integration into the “global machine.” This machine commodifies and extracts. It extracts more money if you’re lonely. If you’re isolated. If community is replaced with cold market exchange. If all your needs and wants are solved with a purchase or a monetized distraction.
Yet even when the system makes it hard to imagine anything else, we’re never too far from our true nature. We need only take a step towards a neighbor and carve a space, no matter how small, separate from the machine. That’s the only way out.
Being happy with yourself and being OK that you're not advancing anymore (you're just happy and don't have anything to pursue), or raising a family. The only two ways.
Loneliness is bad, but other people are worse.
I don't believe in a 'loneliness epidemic'. Where is it? What do these words mean to individuals?
I do think there is a 'false expectation' ie delusion. Ie, after years of forced hyper-socialisation (school, work) and cultural ideas of friendship (Friends), architecture that stacks and packs people, the expectation that people hold of themselves and their relationships bears little relation to their natural, untrained selves. I could even argue that the loneliness expectation is the reverse - there is no meaningful quiet space for individuals. The very idea of being introspective is a problem to be addressed.
What I think we have is 'broken socialisation'. Nothing about human socialisation is natural.
Ban cell phones.
I would suggest for the crowd here: tech meetups, even online ones and communities will connect you to people with your interests.
Another thing that you'll likely find in your area is a chess club.
Maybe you won't love the chess itself, but it's an excuse to hang out with people.
Another one is volunteering work. Elderly, dogs, etc, many communities need help.
In my village I have started a "clean up" program where average citizens take few bags a picker and we clean areas of our village.
Most of people are "this is the job of the garbage collectors, the mayor should do it", so what? It also costs money, and nobody will do as carefully as the people living there.
Even if 95% of my village won't care few will and we make an impact and socialize, etc and more start taking part of it.
loneliness is not really transmissible like an epidemic. If two lonely people get together, they aren’t lonely anymore.
It is very possible to be extremely lonely in a room full of people.
People are uncomfortable to interact and make small talk. They know smileys and lmao, but many have forgotten how to laugh irl.
Your problem statement is problematic.
I felt lonely most of my life. Social anxiety didn't help. Therapy did.
Now I build a life focused on that very much. I go to work at wework, talk to people *everywhere*, joined a bunch of run clubs and just prioritize social stuff. If I don't ask people, walk up to them and say hi, nothing's gonna happen. Reach out to people, say hi, do stuff. Loneliness correlates with low agency I think. Say yes to stuff. Ask people to join for coworking, for going to the gym, a run. Whatever. Go out of your way to increase your social circle. That simple.
And get off your fucking screen and go outside, touch some grass. The internet doesn't help.
Lobby to shut down social media that doesn't encourage real life interaction. I honestly think things will keep getting worse until we unplug them.
I remember when Facebook was used to promote and estimate attendance for local punk shows. That ship definitely sailed.
"Who don't feel that they can join any local groups"
There's your problem. Fix that.
If there aren't any local groups then help create one. If there are, go along, meet some people, see what works for you, join a different one if you didn't like the first one, keep going until you've found your people.
If you feel like you can't go to a group then create a support group for people who feel like they can't go to groups. Or go online and find the virtual space for people like you and then travel to see those people (or invite them to see you).
But there is no fix for you having to socialise if you're lonely. You're going to have to find a way in.
Can we please make this HN discussion stay open forever. This is one of those threads which has clicked me the most. I thank the creator of this a lot. A lot of these comments are super insightful and I wish to talk but I feel and explain my situation but I always sometimes feel like it takes a mental toll. I sincerely love this discussion and have gone I think 75% aruond and its so great to see people similar to us
I wish if this post could perhaps be made an exception or similar where people can talk about this for longer. Perhaps its just me but I wish for something like this avenue in some more time (perhaps right now I feel a bit closed off for some reason) where I wish to talk but words don't come out so much.
I don't know if I am walking around the bush on what I would wish to talk about here because of it right now. I have been trying to screenshot all the posts I could find which are great here and I just don't know, I just want this HN thread/discussion to stay open forever so that I can talk here a month in or two months in when I feel even more comfortbale
The point I am trying to say is that I was losing hope in HN and every social media because of botting and other issues and just lack of trust and direction and irl interactions are few and between. This feels such a great thread and I appreciate the author (I saw their work on their website which is phenomenal)
In a way, I think atleast this thread will help solve or atleast help me (or that's how I feel) in loneliness epidemic and I am grateful for that but I just want this to stay forever.
One of the issues I have in creating a special place for talks like these is that I see very few people sign in//sign up or talk. HN has lots of users and I got some really insightful answers here.
I think its technically possible and I just want the moderators to do this once. Dang if you are reading this, I genuinely hope that you can keep this thread permanent/long time. Loneliness is a real concern and I just feel that some people are unable to reach out (perhaps me right now) and definitely need some right place and right time and if this could just stay or (stay longer at the very least) I would deeply appreciate it sir
Could have it be an automated monthly thing, like the who's hiring,who's wanting to be hired posts.
Yes! I think this can work!
Would Hackernews community allow for something like this or be interested in doing this or say, if I were to create this post (or perhaps the OP) every month, would that go against terms or still be allowed.
I think it can be allowed but still just want to confirm if the community really wants this
I saw an aspect of vulnerability in hackernews I hadn't seen prior which made things feel real atleast to me
I don't think an automated thing would work.
But I do think this thread is far too big to keep up with.
My plan was to post a similar but more focused thread in a month, and go from there.
I skimmed through this and it's mostly people suggesting to go to church or to volunteer, as always.
The main problem I had was that there were too many responses. There's currently over 1,000 comments that are not mine.
I spent all day yesterday reading and responding to them, and there were still dozens of responses that I'm only seeing this morning, often thoughtful and with new ideas or perspectives.
So my plan was to post a series of more narrow focused questions on the topic, once every so often (maybe once a month). What causes the loneliness epidemic individually? Systemically? What policies might help it? What actionable solutions can many individuals try? Etc.
This is already kind of what I'm doing in Chicago. Every Sunday, I hold a sign with a different survey on a related topic. I'd like to do it more often if time eventually permits. In any case, I'm keeping a log of the results and conclusions on my website.
My main goal in this is to be a slowly evolving plan of actionable, concrete ideas, that's interactive, dynamic, and self-iterating.
Ban advertising based business models.
I think people in general need to stop letting differences rip them apart from each other. I've seen countless friendships crumble over stupid things like politics. (I'm not saying politics is stupid overall, but I do think it's stupid to let it affect a relationship, except in extreme situations). I'm not talking about the Neo-Nazi who openly expresses hatred towards other races, or the extreme other end who insists that anything other than full throated and vocal activism makes you a bad person. Those people are toxic and should be avoided. IME that's like 1% of the population if not less.
Social media has (IMHO) exacerbated this by allowing us to selectively surround ourselves with people we know we'll agree with. It's a nice reprieve sometimes, but it's so, so unhealthy beyond short-term.
Also talking to people in-person is very important. The less you do it, the harder it is, but it's worth doing. The natural humanizing effect of conversing with a person in meat-space does wonders for increasing understanding. Don't talk about topics you disagree on, focus on agreements and common interests. A good friend of mine is a trans-woman married to a woman. She decided to get into target shooting and approached others in good faith, and she said something like (not a direct quote): "I was worried they would be assholes, but it turns out they're just nerds like me, they just love to kit out their rigs".
Another friend of mine fell into the right-wing youtube rabbit-hole and "infiltrated" an Antifa group. He's a good guy overall, but got a very clouded exposure to "the other side." After he was done, he said something like (not a direct quote) "I was actually really surprised at how accepting, respectful, and intellectual most of them were. We wouldn't agree on politics, but they were a lot more interested in real analysis and dealing in facts than I ever would have thought, and we ended up having some good conversations."
Yes there are going to be assholes out there, but give people a chance before jumping to conclusions. You might be surprised! Don't jump in the deep end all at once, and be mindful of personal danger and comfort-level, but don't be so afraid to reach out to humans (in-person) and try to connect, even if you think on the surface there's no way you could get along.
phone screen time < 2 hr/day
no one hitting that target has a shortage of friends
everyone missing that target does
I normally don't contribute to HN comments these days (too much anger in the comments section) but I appreciate your post and activities.
I am a tail-end boomer in the U.S. so my experiences were with a world where socializing was more functional: we shopped in public, played in public, read in public libraries, watched movies in public, rode transit together, etc. Being in public was a requirement, not a choice. While there are still remnants of this older culture still active in today's world in urban life, there are so many options for not being in public that it is simply easier to avoid it. We all want our space in one degree or another.
On the playground growing up, my world was filled with name-calling and backbiting. I was a heavier kid, so that was my burden. Other kids had bucked teeth, warts, limps, they were too short, or too tall, uncoordinated--whatever--nobody really escaped the wrath of the crowd. We were forced, by our parents, to just deal with it.
My parents like many others in their generation recognized this behavior for what it was--natural. Watch an episode of the Little Rascals--you will see what I am referring to.
Most if not all of those kids who were called names and isolated in some way found ways to break out of their pigeon hole: playing sports, playing music, making art, studying hard at school, boxing, singing, dancing, cracking jokes, whatever. Then they were heroes, and the crowd could celebrate them--and they thrived.
I know this sounds overly idealistic, but it is true. I experienced this first hand in a neighborhood of several hundred kids from broken homes, poor homes, ethnic homes, etc.
Voiceless people must find their voice. The responsibility is their's. The crowd will not come to the rescue of the person who won't stand up for themselves and make their way in life.
Loneliness is very, very sad. The cure to loneliness is in the powerful hands of the lonely person. Do whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to work on those things that hold the lonely person back from achieving something--anything--for themselves and then engage with the crowd with more confidence.
I appreciate what you are doing by helping others--that is one of your superpowers. Live a good, strong life!
Your first paragraph is what I've always thought: "back in the day" most people simply didn't have the option to be a hermit. In modern life, your bills, grocery shopping, car registration, hobbies, etc. can all be handled online / in your home.
In my opinion, it takes a lot of time and energy to avoid loneliness in the modern era. So, advice about "just get yourself out there" is technically accurate, but it misses the mark since previous generations didn't need to put much thought, if any, into socializing. Perhaps not everyone is wired to focus so much energy into that aspect of their life and we're seeing that play out with modern amenities?
Thanks for the rare comment.
I agree that these people need to do the work themselves.
But they first need to be encouraged and motivated, no? Otherwise they'd have done it by now. That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out how to do.
Unchecked groups like you describe and large part of reason why so many people checked out first time they could. The in person contact they were forced into was not helping them or was actively harming them. People escaped - by leaving those bullies and going elsewhere. It is, frankly, ridiculous to claim that those people found "crowd to cheer them". They either found better healthy place of were lonely. You are describing a playground full of bullies and frankly parents who enabled it are equal assholes.
Following may sound like bad faith, but I 100% mean it. Now, former bullies complain they are lonely as others used the option to leave. Those others may be lonely too, but they are still better off then being degraded.
> Voiceless people must find their voice. The responsibility is their's. The crowd will not come to the rescue of the person who won't stand up for themselves and make their way in life.
Bullies are responsible for bullying. Punishing bullies is necessary part of the solution. The responsibility is not just on victims. And if you push the responsibility on victim, stop complaining that the victim left.
> Most if not all of those kids who were called names and isolated in some way found ways to break out of their pigeon hole:
Social exclusion is psychologically damaging, and often is directed at people who are ND, LGBTQI+, introverted, different culture/skin colour, etc.
I find it troubling that you say "most if not all ... were heroes ... and they thrived". No. You describe abuse, plain and simple. Abuse is not the forge of character development or great art. What you excuse as sounding "overly idealistic" is actually incredibly toxic.
And I know people who are deeply, profoundly psychologically broken as a result of this amazing process you describe that causes "most, if not all" of these people to "thrive".
> I normally don't contribute to HN comments these days
I see why.
Universal Basic Tokens allowance?
Loneliness is a symptom of the loss of the third place. You can't solve loneliness, but we can as a society look at why many have lost their place for socializing.
Hyperfocus on productivity, the one dimensional man that know only rest and work, and the rise of narcisism and hyper individuality, all causes of the loss of the third place.
Everyone needs to take on the quest to find where they belong, but society needs to give people time to invest in this quest.
So I think it's as simple as working less and spending more time with people.
Affordable home ownership, shorter work weeks, fund community activities, create more spaces where people can hang out without spending money, subsidise childcare.
Every facet of capitalism is trying to push individualism and consumption
Probably not with technology.
Idk, probably some kind of app.
The people who push "no hello" on their co-workers and want to stay home all day are lonely now. Shucks.
"Don't talk about your kids at work, it's off-putting"... then proceeds to talk about their dog every day. :)
Yeah, a lot of this discussion does seem pretty myopic sometimes.
Find a local church, start going, and join whatever groups they have that fit your demo / interests.
We can solve it with an app.
Open very large disco techs.
I’m quite lonely nowadays. Partially by my nature of being somewhat introvert and partially due to some years of depression where I mostly shut everyone out, leading to more or less no friends anymore. I see a couple guys sometimes for coffee during weekends but that’s all I do socially. It doesn’t get easier to find new friends when you’re 50+, so better do the work while you’re young. I’m mostly fucked by now.
I’ve seen the numbers, but honestly it’s pretty wild for me to read this thread. Many people’s stories paint a picture in my mind of lives that feel devoid of richness, almost like watching an advertisement or a sitcom.
Sadly, I come across this rarely in my everyday life. It would be a richer experience for me to have a more balanced sense of how people are doing.
I was mercifully spared from aloneness by having a powerful and outgoing best friend as a child, and by a nature that ruthlessly seeks “where the action is.” That said, I used to often feel alone when I was with people, specifically. I now call this “feeling unseen,” and it took me a long time to learn that, though sometimes I was just with the wrong people, much of the time it was because I wasn’t expressing myself authentically.
I’ve long since moved to the Bay Area, which, while an odd place, does offer many ladders out of the predicament of disconnection. There are many ways to actively learn the skills of connection here—through therapy, community practice, and structured relational work—and I practiced enough that I can now teach. Many people also learn and deepen their own skills by interacting with the community I’m part of.
The question of whether there’s a solution ... well, when one becomes acquainted with the field of learning the underlying skills that can address loneliness—which goes by many names and has many purported aims—it turns out that the path is well-mapped from pretty much every perspective, and in ways tailored for most types of people. Some of the best books are international best-sellers, and you can just go buy them and read them.
I don’t think the solution, per se, is unknown. The issue seems to be that people don’t know they can help themselves, or don’t believe they can, or perhaps in some cases lack the resources or support to get help.
Most people, I think, are afraid. And if I had to guess at why this seems more common than it once was, it’s probably because many people are no longer being forced by circumstance to confront their fears in the way previous generations often were.
It also seems to me that this is an inevitable result of our urban planning and the rising effective cost of housing since the ’70s.
If you’re such a person reading this who finds themselves alone, the main thing I have to say is: far more is possible than it probably feels like right now. I’ve seen many miracles happen, and correspondingly very few failures among those I’ve seen genuinely try. Paths to wholeness are innumerable—and what worked for me probably won’t work for you—but if you keep trying, there’s a good chance you’ll find yourself somewhere adjacent to where I find myself now: with more love and connection in my life than I know what to do with.
The path begins with acknowledging your fear, and learning to feel and see it as a guide. This doesn’t mean leaping off a cliff; it often starts very small. Go toward what feels terrifying, what feels cringe, what you dismiss or push away. Investigate those things and find out for yourself what’s really there. Once you begin doing this, the path becomes obvious ... it’s right in front of you.
I should add, a very specific thing about the Bay Area that had an outsized contribution to my life was the group house culture. There are hundreds (or thousands?) of micro-communities sharing dwellings in the Bay in a way that's unlike anywhere else in the world, to my knowledge.
I've lived with men in their 60s in these contexts, but primarily this is an option for young people at the start of their careers, which I highly, highly recommend.
Any easy way to work on this problem is to simply lower the barriers to co-habitation. This could look like working to change zoning (I think Oregon has been a pioneer here), building businesses around the concept (many have tried, from small things you haven't heard of all the way up to WeWork), to experimental projects like: https://neighborhoodsf.com/Neighborhood+Notes/Published/The+....
Ban cell phones worldwide.
Be a part of (IRL) groups.
This is an individual problem and an individual's responsibility to solve, imo (Although I do think it's interesting to consider whether a project, company, or initiative could help make this easier to solve for millions.)
Regardless, there are four steps worth taking as an individual: (1) go out, (2) make friends, (3) turn friends into community, and (4) maintain community.
If you're feeling lonely, you're probably failing at one step along this chain.
1. Going out. I don't have a lot of tips here. Except to go to things that actually facilitate interacting with strangers. Don't just go to a bar or go work from a cafe. Go to a meet and greet, an event for strangers to mingle, etc. Or, if you're having trouble motivating yourself to go out, then that's something inside yourself to work on. I find that a shakeup to your life routine (e.g. moving cities, going on a vacation) can provide a good window to change your habits, where you'll start doing things you don't normally do in your home city.
2. Making friends. This one is simple but hard for some. Basically: be personable, smile, engage in conversation, ask questions, be interested, avoid being threatening or clingy, dress and stylish normal-ish unless you really don't want to, etc. Then talk to people at these events, and if seems like you'd like hanging with them and have things in common, ask to exchange numbers.
3. Turn friends into community. IMO this is where you go from the basics into the advanced, and where the most benefits lie. However, most people stop after #2, even though this step is easier than steps #1 or #2, and is extremely rewarding. Community is an in-person social network. The number of connections between people in a community determines the strength and stickiness of that community. Thus it's very important that you introduce your friends to other friends. For example, instead of going on a coffee date with a friend once every month or two, invite 2 or 3 friends to dinner. This has numerous benefits. All of your friends will meet each other, and suddenly they'll know who you're talking about when you mention other people. Also, conversation is easier when there are more people. Also, you'll find events and hangs happen more often, because (a) more people are able to initiate them, and (b) there's more reason to go. People are more motivated to go and less motivated to cancel when there's an event that allows them to see multiple friends at once.
4. Maintain community. People move away. People have silly fights and disagreements and stop talking to each other. People get into relationships and disappear. People get sick, or old, or antisocial, and disappear. Shit happens. So you have to keep doing steps #2 and #3, at least occasionally, forever. You don't necessarily need to do step #1 as much, since the people in your community will naturally bring friends and whatnot to your events. But you still need to get to know these people, exchange numbers, and invite them to future events.
Volunteer
> Countless voiceless people sit alone every day and have no one to talk to, people of all ages, who don't feel that they can join any local groups. So they sit on social media all day when they're not at work or school. How can we solve this?
Solve what? This is the world I have always dreamed of, before even computers became a thing in my life and community. I initially approximated it with books.
Find what you love to do
undo urbanization, education, and technology. retvrn to monke.
I think this is fine? I’m pretty quiet in my real life but I do talk about here.
It can be fine, if you're happy in a mostly solitary life there's nothing wrong with that.
If you're unhappy and feel a need for more friends, then you'll need to take some action if all you do is sit at home on a screen all day.
I don't view this as socialising. It is mostly a battle of narratives.
About what?
Move to Latin America
Obviously, someone has to create a nice big corp which would make us nice LLM friends and family members, yes, yes, yes!
on the topic of platonic friendship, I couldn’t disagree more with a lot of the comments. I have plenty of friends yet I don’t do clubs and will never, ever do organized religion. People advising it are religious freaks in my opinion. Some of my best friends took this advice to go to church and bible study. They complain every time I see them about the people in their church. Meanwhile I’ve made more and better friends online. Its not hard, get on social media, find an influencer/streamer that matches your vibes and go jump into the official or adjacent discord community and play video games with people in that community. If you engage in active listening and are a decent person, you will easily make plenty of friends. Additionally, I think in person hangouts are kinda mid, but I hangout with my friends in-person (at a minimum) every other day when I weight lift. Like seriously, I often would rather chill in Discord than go and hang out in-person.
To me the male loneliness epidemic is more about a lack of ability to find meaningful romantic relationships. I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and as somebody who has been doing online dating since it essentially started, I am pretty sure that the problem (or at least a major piece) is that match group has commodified romantic relationships.
I know a lot of people will focus on meeting people in public or whatever, but it has been my experience that dating has become completely garbage and a large part is because all of the current popular dating apps disallow index search and funnel you into swiping. From a mate selection perspective this makes no sense. Not only does it muddy the waters about who is actually a real match, but it also does psychic damage to make so many shallow judgements.
Back before match group bought OkCupid, I used to have excellent results finding people their who shared a lot of common ground with, messaging them with a thoughtful message, and going on dates. Swiping is an absolute crap shoot, and often I feel like I am being used.
Not with technology.
Maybe increase the living conditions for people under 60?
All this talk is just about the symptoms, but the cause is that young people are born into a deeply unfair world where losing is by design (so that the baby boomers can continue to profit).
If someone in their 20 can start a family without being financially broken, things will improve.
I like to hang around at my local skate park.
I'm not very good on a skateboard, better on a BMX. In any case the vibes are usually good.
Sometimes you think people aren't even noticing you, till you finally land the trick you're working on and a total stranger yells 'whoo!'
stop inventing and endorsing divisive ideas
I can't promise I'll try, but I'll try to try.
I think old-school chat rooms might be a solution to this.
I was going to post this somewhere else, but I think this story fits.
An old guy approached me and said "put the music on my phone mann".
Alright.
My response: "Search on YouTube"
He keeps insisting on ME doing it for him.
3 steps
First his data was off. For presumably a while he's had his data off ( it's metro PCs so it's prepaid anyway) and I guess he was relying on WiFi.
Ok.
One click to fix that in the Android tile menu.
His Bluetooth was off too.
Turn that on. Turn on his headphones. Luckily it was already paired.
Finally I had to open YouTube and find music for him.
3 or 4 steps.
Now he's happily listening to music.
But beyond that, he got to introduce himself to me, and I guess the next time he accidentally turns off his data he can ask for help again.
I also like to help people.
Old people are awesome when it comes to this. They'll just ask someone to help them out, that's how you build community.
Don't know how to change your oil ? Cool Billy's a car guy he can help you out. Having trouble with your water pressure, maybe Sarah's a plumber and she can help.
Of course if something serious you're still going to be expected to pay these people, but if it's something quick they'll help you free of charge. Maybe you'll bake them a cake for their kids birthday.
I recall when I was young a neighbor basically gave my mom a car. It was an absolute piece of crap, and out of the goodness of his heart he would come and fix it every now and then.
I didn't realize it as a kid, but if you're passionate about cars and you get the emotional satisfaction of both helping a neighbor and seeing how long you can keep that old car running, that's its own reward.
How many of you would love for a non technical neighbor to say their computer is slow. I recall someone on HN even offering to send out a free laptop to someone in need.
Traditionally communities would have a blacksmith or a baker. That's what that person did and they had a status tied to it.
In modern economic systems what exactly we do is so abstracted away from anything meaningful we lack this connection.
On a very fundamental level people need to feel needed.
TLDR: Help others.
Make as many third places as you can. People need to get out to do other things than work, and these should be low cost activities. If you introduce subscriptions and then ramp up prices, then you are the scum of the world.
I have 2 answers to this, depending on how you define "loneliness epidemic"
Genuine loneliness, like what you described, can only really be solved by touching grass. Figure out your hobbies, or find one if you don't have any.
My answer to what a lot of people call "the male loneliness epidemic" as a woman is to say it doesn't exist, you need to figure out how to be attractive. We aren't throwing ourselves on shitty men, and most of the men that complain are complaining because they feel entitled to us and thus put no effort into being attractive. The quickest way to be attractive is have empathy and not be a douche. Listen to peoples needs, and don't feel entitled to our attention
Believe me, us men are not as "lonely" as you think. We can very easily be friends with each other, it's you who has to stop treating us like we're douches by default. We don't bite.
Except you do. Sure "not all men" or whatever but we have to be cautious because there's a non insignificant amount that will rape or murder us if we say no
No, it's not about "not all men", it's not about men as men at all, it's about violent people not being stopped. You assume the worst of us, while we keep assuming the best of you. Women commit violence almost as much as men, but it's underreported because you simply don't have the physical strength to hurt us to the point of being able to report you.
How many times I had to hear the news about a kindergarden teacher beating up young pupils as a punishent? Hell, I was one of those kids, when physical punishment was still accepted, but I don't see mothers and kindergarden teachers being assumed as "child beaters". I'm tired of this rethoric, and I refuse to engage with you further, as you consider my male existence as an inherent threat and dehumanize it.
> The quickest way to be attractive is have empathy and not be a douche.
This would suggest most people are attractive. Is an empathic non-asshole really attractive, even without other things that make him interesting (e.g. travel experiences or interesting takes on things)?
If those people got a haircut, brushed their teeth and took a shower, they would be attractive!
Certainly more than an asshole with things that make him interesting
i always thought I had avoided this issue. then i moved to a new town. starting with zero friends in a new town, with very little in place as far as shows, groups, etc, it seems quite a bit harder than it was 20 years ago. meetup used to work but it has become a cesspool of zoom calls and pay meetings. i wish i knew a really good answer (and i dont drink so bars dont have the appeal. by the time i get off of work coffee shops are closed)
i love people and do not want to be alone.
I've wanted to try out the "2 hour cocktail party", based on the book linked in this HN comment. The author started doing this after moving to NYC, just hosting a cocktail party every month or so and inviting interesting people that he'd met. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to cover all the classic hosting missteps and pains that I've experienced in the few get-togethers I'd previously hosted:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32879851
You certainly have a few hobbies no? Or anything you have been wanting to try for years?
I certainly don't have the time and energy to do all the things I would if I had more free time. There are so many sports/activities I'd like to do but don't have time to, many of those for which I could find a club/class for.
go outside, talk to people
Get a bike
Alcohol.
Church.
together
Telos
go volunteer. they're needed everywhere. problem solved. most able-bodied lonely people are that way because they can't be arsed to get off the damn couch. they would just rather discuss loneliness on social media. I can't be arsed either, but I don't feel lonely when I'm alone, which is the majority of the time.
I love this wholesome post
Its an issue that is caused by many factors which are mostly related to the way our large scale societies are structured and ran, but I believe it will be solved very soon... By AI. first disclaimer, I am not advocating one way or the other for this just spelling out what I see on the horizon. Very soon AI systems will become a lot more sophisticated then your average chat bot. We will interact with them naturally through voice and they will become more capable in expressing the various nuances of the human speech, conversation cadence, etc... This is where humans will find solace. In fact i believe AI will be a humans best friend, lover, parent, child, etc.... as technology progresses and these things get embodied and so on. This year alone I expect the start of mass adoption of voice agents. But yeah, that's the way i see things play out. If I am right and things go this way, and you are interacting with these things, the smart move is to make sure you own the full stack 100% and not use the api related nonsense that will eventually brainwash you for this or that reason. If you are gonna dig a hole at least dig one that doesn't have the obvious traps in it.
marijuana bars
Get outside and touch grass?
Burn capitalism to the ground?
Dogs?
This might be more of a gen Z and zillennial thing but the embedding of black & white purity tests in almost all social settings is a big factor.
You must have opinion and they all must align perfectly like mine. Case and point people's behaviors around the 2024 election.
Russian? You better be the most outspoken anti Putin-ist . Jewish? You better be sorry for the Zionists at every turn. Queer? Oh sorry you work for Google and even if your department has nothing to do with the current bads you're bad too, stop stealing from artists with AI. Those are some extreme and blatant examples but ones I've witnessed cause people to get excommunicated no matter how bleeding of a heart they have for the causes people rhetorically crucify them over.
I'm not going to pretend you should be fine if say, a literal unironic nazi is trying to cozy up in your book club, or some clown is constantly bringing up "hot takes" needlessly on your baseball club. But these constant purity tests typically remove all nuance and leave both sides heavily alienated, leaving many to fall into a hedgehog's dilemma of fearing interactions lest they're accused of things they simply are not.
This. Every disagreement turns almost instantly into dislike.
I feel it wasn't always like this. One should be able to have a debate about s.th. with different opinions and still be friends.
I've been thinking recently about the scale at which it seems the vast vast majority of people participate in close to zero public discussion online and what a bummer it is.
Basically all discussion platforms are broken for any sort of long term meaningful discussion which I think is at least part of the problem. Even this thread and this comment just the fact that the thread is now 4 hours old the amount of views and chance of getting many responses drops precipitously. On most platforms unless you are someone with a large following you basically have to think like a marketer and post often and early on posts to stand a chance of getting a discussion going. It's always so ephemeral too. Even though posts on a platform like HN on reddit still exist and you can comment on old threads probably 99% of the activity happens in the first 6 or so hours and then it largely ends.
It makes me miss forums where at least you had long lived threads with simple time based post order and a good chance of replies. This doesn't seem to exist on only platforms now and forums have largely faded away.
The fragmentation of discussion has also messed things up. For example yesterday I was listening to a HardFork podcast episode which is a fairly popular pod, topping the charts in at least the tech category, and after listening I wanted to check for discussion around the episode and probably leave a comment or two. I assume this episode had to have gotten at least in the low tens of thousands of plays though perhaps that is way off. I went searching for discussion and basically found a largely dead subreddit for the podcast with no threads being regularly created for the episode and an empty comment section on nytimes which any site comment section is a useless place for discussion anyways. The pod is also posted on youtube which the youtube comment section had the most activity of anything I found but the youtube comment section and the way it is structured/operates is perhaps the most useless of all the platforms for trying to have any discussion. I just don't understand how if at least say ten thousand people listened to the episode surely at least 1% would be interested in discussing it and 100+ people going back and forth would be a large, active, healthy discussion somewhere.
Even threads that seem "active" on sites like HN or Reddit in the context of the actual audience sizes are shockingly small and confuse me. For example The Pitt season 2 just premiered and posted 5.4 million viewers, the subreddit post ep discussion currently has 5.3k comments which is quite high for a show. That is a joke of a percentage though, 0.1%! and even worse in the context of people that are posting probably post more than once in the thread. I understand many and even most people not wanting to post to discuss a show they just watched but how the hell is less than 1 in a thousand!
This post got long which also damages the chance of any engagement due to TLDR culture.
The basis of community is sacrifice. It must be. If it is all about me and only what I want, then I am alone. In any coming together, giving up some personal desires or preferences must inevitably happen.
For in choosing to gather, we are choosing a time and place. I forsake any other places I could be at that time. I give time that I could have been doing something else. More than that, I am choosing to be with people who may irritate me, or play music I don’t like, or say things I wish they hadn’t. In short, they are not me, and so I’ve got to put up with them.
In doing this, we make space for all of the benefits of community—of hearing about that movie that you’d also like to see, of learning of a new recipe you’d like to try, being amazed to hear the personal story of a friend who inspires you to be more like them. You receive encouragement to keep pursuing the highest good, as best as you can see it— And these people help you see it better. You receive real help when you need it.
The cross is at the center of the church community, and in putting it there we worship this ideal leader, who gave up everything in order to gather his people.
In my short lifetime, I have seen how we are drifting further away from this beloved community. Church attendance is down, loneliness is up. Anxiety and depression have never been higher. During the COVID era lockdowns, we experienced what the utter loss of community feels like. Friendships were broken, churches disbanded, people moved, families were tested. Some came out stronger, and some of us are still recovering.
Years before that I began to suspect that media is stealing us from each other. It’s when we spend more time on Facebook or X than socializing with real people. It’s when we’d rather watch Netflix or YouTube than call an old friend. It’s when we’d rather watch a movie that makes us feel compassion, than to feel actual compassion for our neighbor in need. When we believe the lie, we use screens for a stimulating and pointless tickling of the mind.
It’s more than our individual responsibility. This is a collective action problem. It’s when we don’t call that friend because we believe that they would rather be watching their own show, so we may as well be watching ours. It’s when you would prefer the benefits of meeting in person, but the meeting is only virtual. It’s when teens feel pressure to join social media, because everybody else is doing it. It’s when there’s nobody to play with or hang out with, because everybody else is on their own screen, doing their own thing. Last year, our family decided to rebel against this. We gave up “alone screen time” for Lent. If we were on screens, we would only do it together.
Technology allows us to bypass those near us to connect to those afar. Before screens, the automobile allowed us to do this in the physical world. We could use the new cars and highways to move to the suburbs where we have a garage, nice neighbors and no city problems. We don’t often count the social cost of car culture because it is so pervasive. The cost and effects of parking on the built environment, social isolation, declines in public health, and daily deaths from car crashes are costs we don’t often think that we all have incurred in adopting the car as a technology.
As Jesus walked by, a man on the side of the road cried out: “Son of David, have mercy on me!” When he had the option to bypass the bad part of town, he chose to walk straight through it and engage the people there.
When we unquestioningly adopt every new technology, terrible things can happen. This year, a remote jungle village got satellite internet for the first time. And now many of them are addicted to pornography and social media, which is an even bigger problem in a culture where if you don’t hunt and farm, you don’t eat. In contrast, each Amish community has leaders who decide to adopt a technology based on if it will positively or negatively impact their community. They are open to it, but they are mindful to keep the health of the community first. Had the jungle village taken this approach, their community unquestionably would be healthier.
For most of human history, being in a family and in a face-to-face community was core to our identity and was a non-negotiable requirement for survival. It is only recently we have been able to negotiate new terms with our human limitations. I hope I have helped you see that with every gain of a new technology, there is also a loss. The deception and the lie is that there is no loss. But we must count the cost. For the benefit of our communities, it is time to re-negotiate our relationship with technology.
Many of these comments recommend church. While valid if it works for you, it doesn't mesh with me.
I found community through a shared enjoyment of an activity that must be done as a group. Grass roots motorsports in my case, but any activity that needs you to be there with others should work the same. The key is that you should enjoy it and you should have time to interact with people. I like to make car go vroom, but generalize the approach and it should work.
My first season, I won an event with a hero run that sent me from 5th to 1st. When I parked, a random guy stuck his head in my window and started hyping me up for it. I still think about that 3 years later and it still makes me feel good. That feeling made me want to do that for others.
I started approaching random people I'd seen before and just starting a conversation. It was rough the first few times but it gets easier. You already have a shared activity so just start with that. I made a point to remember people's names or at least their car (bad with names, but cars stick for some reason). If the name didn't stick, I'll ask again next time and maybe bring up their car so they know I remember them. When I know their name, I use it when I see them again. Maybe just "Hey bob!" as I'm passing, but something to let them know someone there knows them and cares enough to say hi. They're not a stranger at least. If I haven't seen them in a while, I ask how they've been and spend a bit more effort on the conversation than just a "hey".
It started with the regulars. Now I'm looking for the new faces. I know stuff and they need to know that stuff, so it's easy to talk. If they come back, they should be able to find someone to talk to so I introduce them to some of the other regulars.
I look for people eating lunch alone and I go talk to them. Maybe 2 to 5 minutes, maybe longer. Depends on them. Sometimes I'm awkward. Sometimes I say dumb stuff. Whatever. I'm trying to help these people not be alone at a social event if they don't want to be. If they do, that's fine too, but I'll try again next time.
Some people are closed off and don't really want to talk. That's fine. I still say hi by name and see how it goes. Not trying to push, just keeping the door open. After a few times of trying, a lot of people will start to open up our let the guard down. Some don't.
I'm an introvert and all of this takes extra mental energy on top of the events being competition and work. I don't have the time to compete at the highest level every event because I'm spending time helping others. Rather than getting a better driver in my car to tell me where I'm making mistakes, I'm trying to get the less skilled drivers in my car so they can see why I'm faster. Instead of reviewing data over lunch to see where I'm losing time, I'm trying to build community. I want people to come back. There's a cost to it.
I moved to the middle of nowhere 10 years ago and had no local friends. Work friends are rarely real friends. Tech meets, young professionals groups, nothing came out of those. It sucks to go to a bar alone. None of that produced anything.
Motorsport has been the only activity I've tried where I've started making friends who I talk to outside the events. A lot of it is still about motorsports, but I've gained a few friends who I sim race with or talk to online in the off season. It could have been any other group or activity, but those are the people who made me feel welcome.
Real figures, there are at least 25 people I can walk up to and start a conversation with at an event and have good rapport, more that I know by name and just haven't clicked with, 2-3 people I consider actual friends. I started putting in the effort like this after my first season, so this is the product of 2 seasons of effort (winter doesn't count because there are no events). I'm still kind of lonely, but it's better and getting better.
I think it's that I put in effort. I know I've helped some of those people feel like part of a community. I gave them a few people they could talk to so they didn't feel so alone. Maybe my role was just keeping them coming back until they found their clique. Maybe I need more time to get to know them. Some introverts need an extrovert to help them get started. Sometimes that extrovert is an introvert tryhard.
The reason I do this is cause one guy stuck his head in my window after a run and said something like "bro that was awesome! Nice run!" And he was genuinely happy for me even though he barely knew me. I'm not good at that specific thing so I try in my own way.
I think people look for community. I did. I bounced off a few groups because I didn't fit in. I'm trying to do my part to help people "fit in". Tech solutions ain't gonna help here. Get face to face, make outsiders feel accepted, and see what happens.
And thanks, Clarke.
from what I've looked into, on an individual level, the main thing I need to do is learn how to be a good company for others. Be for other strangers what I would want them to be for me. But it's easier said then done.
From a practical perspective, there is the whole "3rd place" issue. How can I open a business that caters to the public, who will just sit there and loiter on their phones and laptops all day and be profitable. Starbucks sort of did it in the 90s, but they're not tolerating that anymore.
Forget businesses, can you walk to a park, a beach, a hiking trail on a whim and run into people? Can you hold events, watch parties,etc.. on public places easily like that? It's not easy at all these days.
I blame cars. I despise the idea that electric cars are the replacement to cars, without considering changing transportation so that it is more efficient with trams, trains,etc... The side-effect of that is you run into strangers on public transport. This doesn't just affect the loneliness epidemic, it is in my opinion a direct cause of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes, and of course obesity. You can't even be homeless and sleep on the streets these days. Even the park benches are built to be hostile to anyone that wants to chill there for too long.
Society was restructured between 1950s-1980s so that it is suburbanized. It's all about the family unit, single family homes, freeways and roads built to facilitate single family homes (after WW2, starting families was all the rage, plus white-flight didn't help). Shopping centers built to cater to consumers driving from their suburban homes. Malls you can walk in, after you drove some time to park there. Even when you buy food items at grocery stores, pay attention to serving sizes, it is improving a little, but you'll see at minimum a serving size of two typically.
Society was deliberately engineered so that you have more reasons to spend more as a consumer. Families spend more per-capita. suburbs mean more houses purchased, entire generations renting with their bank as a landlord via mortgages, home repair, home insurance, car insurance, car repairs, gas stations for cars where you can get the most unhealthy things out there in the most frequented and convenient places. Make kids, make wives, make ex-wives, get sick the whole lot of you for hospitals, health insurances,etc..
It wasn't planned by some central committees or secret cabal, but it was planned nonetheless by economists and policy makers.
If everyone just got married and had kids, they won't be lonely would they? you don't need to hang out at park with strangers, you'll feel less of a member of your local neighborhood who look and think like you, and start thinking more as one people.
All the interpersonal interactions and opportunities to build relationships with people are commercialized and controlled.
For one reason or another, people are just not getting married in their early 20's anymore, or having that many kids later on like before. Even when you get married, your interaction is by design with other married people, who are busy commuting in their cars to and fro work, kids school,kids sports, plays,etc... imagine taking your kids on busses and trains every day to these places which are fairly near-by, by necessity. you'll be spending time with them instead of operating machinery. They'll be meeting stranger kids from other schools, seeing random strangers all the time, you'll be talking to randos as you walk to the train, wait on the bus,etc.. but this can't be monetized.
Blame the economists and policy makers if you want to blame someone.
If you want solutions, let's talk explicitly about the policy changes that need to happen.
Too much traffic? tear down the freeways instead of building more lanes.
It costs $10B to build a simple metro line? pass better laws to regulate bidding and costs, investigate fraud and waste.
But to dig even deeper into the root of the matter, look at what is celebrated and prized in society. Most of its ills come from there. For most Americans, it is inconceivable to be able to just go out of your house without any plans or destination in mind and just start walking and see where you end up, and who you run into. That's a crucial and tragic ability that's been lost. We really have more urgent things to address to be fair, but ultimately, this can only be solved one small step at a time, but also big sweeping changes are needed. The first step is to define and accept what the problem is, and where the blame and cause lie.
>Blame the economists and policy makers if you want to blame someone.
I wouldn't go as far as blaming, but American society should at least acknowledge their responsibility for this. Its not like the KGB imposed zoning laws in Texas. You (Americans) did. Americans chose the urban model they wanted.
Well the KGB are not economists, so you're right I guess. It was economists and war hawks, suburbanism was also desired because it makes cities a harder target for nukes. Like I said, it wasn't some secret cabal. But there are academics and policy makers behind it. it's important because we have academics and policy makers now too.
You can't.
It is up to them to change. They won't change, and this "loneliness epidemic" is starting to become really fucking annoying. It is almost a grift now to shit on tech by mids.
These people don't want to go outside or engage with other people.
It is like people who are drug/alcohol/tobacco/gambling/sex/etc addicts. It is up to the individual to change. How is it anyone else's responsibility?
I surveyed a bunch of people on reddit, discords, etc. a couple years ago to figure out why people are lonely, back when this whole "loneliness" movement was starting.
A lot of these people say they have "trauma" or some other mental block as a primary reason why they're lonely (btw they're in discords with thousands of people, and playing online games with OTHER PEOPLE). I'm sorry but everyone has shit going on in their lives. You aren't really that special.
Maybe 1-5% of people have dealt with actual, really horrific trauma, and even they have managed to go on to have fulfilling lives. They chose to move on.
I'm an asshole, no doubt, and I've dealt with my own traumas in the past that were honestly way more fucking horrible than "I'm shy" or "nobody likes [insert some esoteric niche]" and guess what? Who cares? Go outside.
There is no helping these people, or anyone to be honest, unless they really want to make a change. These aren't starving Sudanese or people who live in India or something where you can't just "go outside". Mfs be in CALIFORNIA and crying. I'd understand if they were lonely because they were living in Iraq or Venezuela or something.
The only solution is we build a Matrix, and put all these people into it. I will bet 100% of my net worth and any earnings from my entire lineage for perpetuity that they will still fucking complain and be lonely. I was really hopeful for metaverse, too bad but maybe there's still a chance.
I never want to hear about "loneliness epidemic" again, to me it just sounds like DEI/ESG/Eacc and other bs grifting now to hate on tech. Everything is a choice. You press A in a video game even though you're lonely, why not press A to go outside?
These people aren't lonely, they exist in massive online echo chambers with other people. And honestly? I think they like it. Most drug addicts loved being on drugs even though it was a horrific existence. They don't like it when they're narcan'd during OD. But when they decide to get clean, I am proud that they actually did it how amazing is that? SO these lonely people have to stop crying and step outside.
- indian here, i am going to take that a bit offensively.
- millions of indians go outside daily and are doing just fine.
- social media algorithms are rigged against india for reasons i do not understand or comprehend.
- you can easily review this by comparing the amount of engagement on youtube to positive stuff about india vs negative stuff.
- while our country is most certainly not perfect and has problems of its own, problems are not the only thing our country has
I'm also originally from India. My thoughts/opinions are my own and based on my experiences, and yes I stand by them. I remember the pollution, the trash everywhere, and I come from a poor family who lived in a 1 room home with no running water and an outdoor commode. My life was hell there, and I have to pinch myself every morning to make sure I'm not dreaming.
You have the right to your opinion, and your own relative experience. You don't need to get so easily offended, relax.
I wasn't being a dick, sry if it came off that way.
> who don't feel that they can join any local groups
Crux of the issue right here. Idiots online keep blasting into their eyeballs that they are worthless and society has already collapsed. All they need to do is go down the road and join a club or a church or something.
Especially for users of this website. Almost all clubs are in dire need of a webmaster.
If you have young boys in your life then teach them that it's ok to feel and express their emotions, and as they get older that their sexual self need not be frightening and that sex can exist outside of narratives of domination.
This requires them to have spaces where they can express themselves sexually without the fear that male sexuality will be judged as inherently violent or oppressive.
I've lost count of the times I've seen women praised while men were castigated, in the same space, for expressing any kind of honest sexual preference.
Yes, that's the issue I'm highlighting. We have to teach the next generation differently. Be the safe space
Why should we lie to them? Nearly all NSFW content takes the most extreme forms of taboos related to social oppression and ratchets them up well past 11. Almost no one in the USA can even begin to relate to sex in ways that don't involve "domination", or "race", or some weird Freudian familial relation, etc.
Ultimately, we need to begin by destigmatizing the male libido. Simply saying "male desire is good and it's fine to have it" is literally heretical anywhere except among gay men. Men never got any kind of sexual liberation. Young boys need only to look at their own usually mutilated manhoods to see what modern society thanks of their desire.
To even begin to teach them that they can relate to sex without domination, first teach them that their own desires are not evil.
> Nearly all NSFW content takes the most extreme forms of taboos related to social oppression and ratchets them up well past 11. Almost no one in the USA can even begin to relate to sex in ways that don't involve "domination", or "race", or some weird Freudian familial relation, etc.
Yes, we live in a patriarchal society. That same patriarchy is at the core of our modern loneliness. Teaching young people that "it doesn't have to be this way" isn't lying. Telling them it's the natural order of things is the lie that ultimately tears people apart because their bodies know differently.
> To even begin to teach them that they can relate to sex without domination, first teach them that their own desires are not evil.
This is exactly what I was saying.
> Nearly all NSFW content takes the most extreme forms of taboos related to social oppression
... what? No, that's a niche that you'd have to go out of your way to find.
> Young boys need only to look at their own usually mutilated manhoods to see what modern society thanks of their desire.
I assume you refer to circumcision. Maybe it's "usual" in your country. In Canada it's the minority condition: https://cps.ca/en/documents/position/circumcision
It's an annoyingly double-edged issue, and one that I believe neither side of the political spectrum (speaking in very broad strokes here) has addressed well at all.
Though I usually consider myself progressive (to an annoying degree to some), the progressive "answer" to young men right now on how to find friends and partners is essentially something like:
Obviously I'm employing a bit of hyperbole for emphasis and this is also me trying to empathize with what it's like being a boy right now despite lacking first-hand experience. Luckily, most women do not feel this way about men, but I've heard all of this said by my friends at one time or another (and I might have said something similar myself during my weaker moments, when I was upset).Meanwhile the hardliners on the opposite side of the spectrum espouse the idea that actually men should be evil because it's manly. That women are lesser to them and that patriarchy is super cool actually. See Andrew Tate as an example, who has captured the ears of millions of teenage boys around the world. At first it's hard to comprehend why his ideology speaks to them, but you have to remember that most of them are just entering the time of their life where they have to figure themselves out, where they have to, for the first time in their life, find friendship, respect and companionship on their own outside of the family or the playground. And after all, everyone wants to be loved and respected in some way, and Andrew Tate offers them an answer: You can be an asshole and still be loved and respected, while the leftie answer tells them that you can be as perfect as you like, but you probably still won't be loved and respected, and if you fuck up, don't expect any grace.
And now the question is what should society actually do so that both young men and young women can find a harmonious place in it? I think really the only answer is to stop playing the blame game, stop trying to make one side the constant bad guy and scapegoat, try to comprehend that we are all equally human, and that whatever a person's gender is doesn't give you the right to be shitty to them. I don't know, maybe this is simply another utopian idea, of men and women living together in perfect unison, never being mean to each other. I think we should still strive to achieve some sort of balance, but sadly I don't really see an easy answer to this.
Sorry for this long rant, I've wanted to put this into words for a while. Occasionally I think about how bad it must be being a teenage boy right now, the thought scares me and I feel lucky not being one. Every time I read another woman saying that she's afraid of every man on the street walking in proximity to her, and every time it's dark out and I hear a man behind me and I get physically afraid, I think, what if I was a man and she was afraid for her life because of me? Just because I exist in the space next to her? Just because of a random coin-flip during my conception? And it feels awful. I don't want anyone to go through that.
My experience suggests that Tate is talked about far more (like, orders of magnitude) than actually directly heard (unless you count fair-use clips in attempts at critique). The strongest advocates I've seen for the rights and well-being of men in general, and young men in the dating world in particular, have come from across the political spectrum in other regards, including literal socialists.
Otherwise I agree with you.
> It's an annoyingly double-edged issue, and one that I believe neither side of the political spectrum (speaking in very broad strokes here) has addressed well at all.
Where would you expect to see it addressed? bell hooks wrote The Will To Change more than twenty years ago.
I'm not familiar with The Will to Change, but a former Internet associate of mine wrote a multi-part critique of Feminism is for Everyone many years back. As I read along I had to agree that it simply isn't nearly as sympathetic to men as bell hooks seems to have thought it was. Just as many other supposedly softer takes on feminism aren't. In particular, there's a refusal to acknowledge the harm that feminism has actively done to men, and the fact that there very clearly are people and policies out there that actively seek to harm men because they are men. In "liberal" feminism, everything bad that happens to men is rounded off to "the patriarchy hurts men too".
(The promulgation of the term "patriarchy" is itself an example of the harm I'm talking about. Feminists and other progressives will insist that the meaning of terms cannot be divorced from their etymology, and cite questionable-at-best etymology when complaining about words and campaigning for replacements. But then they have an entire canon of words that were deliberately coined to associate masculinity with harmful or undesirable things and femininity with virtue and resistance to oppression. As Karen Straughan put it: "[Feminists are] not blaming men, [they] just named everything bad after them.")
> In particular, there's a refusal to acknowledge the harm that feminism has actively done to men,
Then I heartily recommend you read the book I referenced.
When I look it up, the summary I get from Amazon is:
> From New York Times bestselling author, feminist pioneer, and cultural icon bell hooks, an evergreen treatise on how patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurts us all.
Which is the exact thing I complained about.
Honestly I can't continue the conversation. You say the thing you want isn't being said. I say it is and point you towards it, but you're discrediting it based on a second hand account of a different book or a single paragraph summary. I've read all your points and I'm telling you man to man that this is your book. You can take it or leave it.
Sadly (allowing for some hyperbole) yes.
I blame the on-line attention economy - which always rewards yet-more-extreme reactions, positions, and performative "virtues". But attaches zero value to actual pro-social behavior.
> See Andrew Tate as an example, who has captured the ears of millions of teenage boys around the world. At first it's hard to comprehend why his ideology speaks to them,
It is super easy to understand. He tells them they are superior and that feels good. He tells them they are entitled to dominate others and that makes them feel powerful. People LOVE to hear they are superior over others.
And all your complains about progressives boils them to them acknowledging that Tate adjacent people exist, that philosophy runs in top levels of the government and the rest of us have to react to it. Like, all your complains about progressives are super mild compared to what conservative people say and think about the rest of us.
> And now the question is what should society actually do so that both young men and young women can find a harmonious place in it?
There is no harmony possible when the woman is degraded or subjugated. There is only fake harmony possible when it is not allowed to speak about threat of Tate like conservatives, because someones feelings might be hurt.
> I think we should still strive to achieve some sort of balance, but sadly I don't really see an easy answer to this.
There is no balance with "I think women are inferior and should be mistreated".
> Every time I read another woman saying that she's afraid of every man on the street walking in proximity to her, and every time it's dark out and I hear a man behind me and I get physically afraid, I think, what if I was a man and she was afraid for her life because of me? Just because I exist in the space next to her?
In the context of male gendered violence literally promoted by conservative thinkers, it is women talking about the impact it has on them who is causing the unfair harm to men. This is absurd.
This is, frankly, a thing feminists books claim and I did not believed is a real thing. Except here you are, writing exactly those words.
I'm sorry if my use of words like "balance" implied that I want a balance between real violence against women and some people being mean to men, one of those is obviously a lot way WAY worse than the other and I did not want to imply that at all. I just suck at writing down my thoughts. :)
I'll also concede that I used a lot more hyperbole to exaggerate how bad men must feel when faced with some (very non-violent) push-back in a progressive environment, and I was a lot less descriptive with the actual assault, rape, murder and violence that women face under the patriarchy, represented by the other side with my example of Andrew Tate. I did not mean to equate those two and be "pick-me"-ish, but I see how you can come to the conclusion from my comment.
Mostly I wanted to say that although societal misogyny is a whole lot worse than any hate aimed at men (and again, I want to emphasize that women suffer a LOT more under patriarchy than men do when women are slightly mean to them because of said patriarchy, I really do NOT want to equate the impact of those two!), I still think the proper response is to try to reach an understanding that every human in front of you is unique and isn't defined by their gender, skin color, race any more than they are defined by their hair color or the tone of their voice. This is pretty idealistic and I will not fault any woman who feels unsafe being alone at night with an unknown man around, after all I feel that myself, too, plenty of men have been shitty to me... This is also in regard to assumption, if the man you are talking with chants "Your body, My choice!" then that's not an assumption anymore, he's made the choice to be actively horrible, the nice peaceful approach is actually not possible with this man, and this counts for many men who are possibly less overt than that, whether they're mostly nice in person but actually support politicians who erode women's rights, trying to explain it away with some argument about taxes or whatever, or whether he laughs when his friends make shitty misogynistic jokes. But plenty of men don't. And I kind of feel bad for them, that's it. Really all my hyperbole was only to be read from the perspective of a man who ACTUALLY does not deserve the hate, because I do know some as my friends.
Anyway, I have to admit your response has been really painful to read since that was the exact way I did not want my comment to be read as, but it's fair enough, I just hope I was able to clarify some points, because I believe we actually agree on most issues, even if my comment can easily be read as shitty misogynist apologia. Like I said, I'm really not good at communicating.
> It is super easy to understand. He tells them they are superior and that feels good. He tells them they are entitled to dominate others and that makes them feel powerful. People LOVE to hear they are superior over others.
By the same token, it feels bad to be told that one is inferior and deserves to be subordinate to others. Which is messaging that, as a man in contemporary society, I receive constantly, and have been noticing for decades. Despite knowing on some level that it is BS.
But there was a period (this specific thing seems to have improved) when everyone would have been subjected to this narrative in any advertising break on any TV channel in the US or Canada.
> And all your complains about progressives boils them to them acknowledging that Tate adjacent people exist, that philosophy runs in top levels of the government and the rest of us have to react to it. Like, all your complains about progressives are super mild compared to what conservative people say and think about the rest of us.
First off, feminism vis-a-vis the issues of men has nothing to do with progressivism vs conservatism, except in the minds of American political tribalists.
But my own primary complaint about progressives is of the exact form that you describe (except perhaps substitute "academia" and "bureaucracy" for "government").
And in my own experience, it's not common for "conservatives" to say anything actually objectionable about "progressives" (and it's frankly inappropriate to assert what they think outside of what they say or otherwise overtly indicate), even in the US. On HN for example those comments are quite rare and almost universally flagged and killed. Whereas live, upvoted comments decrying the supposed current "fascist regime" are all over the place and the large majority of political submissions are clearly only there because they could be used as an excuse to fulminate about Trump, Musk, Thiel etc.
> There is no harmony possible when the woman is degraded or subjugated.
But this by and large is not actually happening. People like Tate are ultimately irrelevant grifters. I can't even name any "Tate-adjacent people". In my circles, Warren Farrell has way more name-brand recognition. I would never even know about Tate but for people complaining about him. Even other critics of feminism and progressivism rarely bring him up, and then only because of the specific manner in which he is attacked.
And, again, framing this as a two-party conflict is entirely inappropriate reductionism. "Conservatives" by any reasonable definition have no common cause with someone like Tate. The lifestyle he promotes is utterly opposed to "traditional family values".
> In the context of male gendered violence literally promoted by conservative thinkers, it is women talking about the impact it has on them who is causing the unfair harm to men. This is absurd.
This is a bizarre misrepresentation of what you're quoting.
First, it's unreasonable to present the quote as if it denied harm to women. It does not.
That said, the statistics make it clear that the fear is largely unreasonable; men do not report feeling fear in situations that are objectively much more dangerous to them.
But most importantly: you are repeating the conflation of Tate with "conservative thinkers", and conflating a very specific approach to conduct in sexual relationships (and the attempt to form them) with random assaults (physical and/or sexual) on the street by strangers. That is the absurd thing here.
> This is, frankly, a thing feminists books claim and I did not believed is a real thing. Except here you are, writing exactly those words.
I don't know why you'd have to read feminist literature to find the claim that men are afraid of being falsely perceived as sexual threats just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could just ask men.
Women are constantly told that a man in that place at that time would be a sexual threat in ways that men can obviously hear. Men are told it, too. Feminists even resist well-meaning education about personal safety, calling it "victim-blaming" and then turning it around to describe ways that entirely innocent men ought to go out of their way instead.
I have nearly had anxiety attacks when I walked into a nominally unisex bathroom and saw a feminine hygiene disposal unit and no urinal. Or when the men's bathroom was out of order at a shop and the clerk said to use the women's instead.
(And all of this happens against a backdrop of refusal to acknowledge that men can also be raped, including by women. Even the language used to describe female teachers sexually assaulting their male students is different from that used for male teachers and female students. I've heard women say those male students should consider themselves lucky. It's disgusting.)
I'm sorry that people like Andrew Tate still exist, in some number, who will say the kinds of things that validate your narrative. But in my experience, there are way more people who are willing to say the mirror image of it.
> that their sexual self need not be frightening and that sex can exist outside of narratives of domination
This makes a ton of sense but the language needs so much work here to be digested into a real conversation by your average parent, let alone preteen/teenager.
I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. The loneliness epidemic is relatively recent, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't something young boys were taught in the past.
It's more that they need to unlearn what society has been telling them for the past couple of decades. Young boys in the past weren't brought up being essentially told they are monsters and that expressing preferences is "objectifying women" etc.
No, we taught them the opposite, and they grew up to build the lonely world we're all living in now.
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build another software platform
/s
This community is not going to be the one to solve that problem, sorry.
HN has some odd people that don't jump to tech solutions for everything. Plus I'm banned from reddit for 3 days for making a dark joke, and besides, my reddit post asking the same thing went nowhere. At least people here engage in good faith and depth.
i want to hear the joke
Someone said he said something rude in front of his friend, and is worried she will think badly about him, and asked what to do to fix it.
I said there's no turning back now, time to double down, call her fat and ugly, and punch her dog.
Banned for 3 days for advocating violence.
there are way worse calls to violence every day on reddit! except I guess fat-shaming is also violence
I actually wanted to suggest government funded online dating, so we aren't beholden to godawful Tinder and its clones (OkCupid was great for me until it got bought out and turned into Tinder).
I have a slightly different angle on that - Government mandated open algorithms, exposure of sort factors (are you in the back of the line in the swipe queue), and monthly disclosure of male/female ratios. Yeah, it'll effectively crush their business models and then they actually need to start solving the problems they've created (extreme superficiality, not background checking users, not addressing bots, not acknowledging that US has an implicit class system)
I'm trying to figure out if I have enough energy to try to pitch this to my representatives office, but I don't know if 30-40% adults never marrying or falling birth rates would be arguments that democratic politician would care to act upon.
OkCupid was great before it got turned into a swiping app. Such a shame.
A lot of people (silently) disliked my opinion, interestingly.
They probably didn't like the "government funded" part. I don't think I disagree. I'd hate to see what a government operated dating app would look like under my government. I doubt someone like me would be allowed on it.
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May I suggest that the political divide is extremely harmful? I don’t understand why [other camp] is so hateful, socially excluding at the first sign of our political leaning, etc.
I agree we also need to organize activities, but when social circles are occupied by the other camp with a witchhunt bonus, it is discouraging to try. And recursively encourages political extremism.
Incoming comment: “Not our problem, don’t be a Nazi.”
Are you talking about the US? If so, I heard this proposed on a podcast “Grey Area”. Mandatory two year draft for all, regardless of gender. It sounds crazy at first but it kind makes sense the more you think about it.
I also have long thought this. Probably not for military service but some form of community service,
No. It sounds crazy after thinking about it for a while also. Especially with the current administration.
This is not the American way.
Hmm interesting, what is the American way? We had conscription between 1940-1973. What makes it non American?
The draft was wildly unpopular during that short period of time when it was active.
Americans, prior to trump, espoused the concept of freedom. That includes the freedom to not serve in the military.
I think I get what you’re trying to say but realistically, it doesn’t add up. The draft was 33 years. The US is only 250 years old (give or take) so over 10% of our history had conscription. The Vietnam and Korean War was widely unpopular because it was the first broadcasted war. People watch their family get blown up on TV. It had nothing to do with “freedom to serve military”.
If you argue a draft is counterproductive because it a waste of resources and we have better means to serve young adults, I could buy it. But arguing a draft is not the American way because it’s “our freedom to decide what we want” is a bit silly.
I do absolutely agree that I wouldn’t trust the current administration or culture to faithfully execute on this idea though.
No. We are too busy worrying about an invading USA.