>How, the novice may ask, does one discover which version is the correct one for oneself?
>There is nothing else to it – you must eat a few hundred bowls of phở and find out. If this requires moving to Hanoi, so be it.
Not the worst life plan, to be honest!
A little bit sad that my own "death bed pho" - chicken pho from that one stall near the market in old quarter - gets just a passing mention as the only acceptable variation to traditional beef pho.
This also brings back memories of our "mystery pho man" - who had three tiny stools and one large pot outside his house every morning, looked like a character straight out of an 80's movie, and was usually sold out by 8am.
Vietnamese food has got significantly better in Toronto in the past 5-10 years - but still haven't found anything that comes even close to Hanoi chicken pho.
My partner is Vietnamese, and also a chef. I've had every variation of pho one can think of. There is a group of snobs who think they authoritatively own the opinion and can only think of a single acceptable recipe (or chef, for that matter).
But let them be so limited on their own. This isn't a religion. It's a big world out there, and there are a gazillion awesome phos in it.
Toronto has awesome hotdog vendors. They serve different types of sausages, and of course weiners ready for the flame grill. They are all large size, and there are a gazillion toppings for you to put on yourself. I've never seen better in the US, or anywhere else for that matter.
In Orange County, CA there is another variant of pho ga kho, which literally translates to dried chicken pho. The rice noodles and chicken are stir fried, and served with a side of pho ga broth, and a sweet soy sauce.
Pho Dakao, 16171 Brookhurst St, Fountain Valley, CA 92708, United States
Also I got a recipe for pho ga from my aunt which is:
* 6 chicken legs, and 2 bone in breasts (or debone a whole chicken)
* Bring a pot of water to boil
* Parboil all pieces for 2 minutes, throw away the broth
* Char onion and ginger (in an air fryer or on a gas stove - air fryer is
easier)
* Toast coriander seeds and star anise
* Add all ingredients back, bring to boil, then drop to a low simmer, and salt
* After 30 minutes remove the pieces, let it cool and debone
* Add the chicken bones back, cook for additional 30 minutes, season with salt and msg
* Optionally serve with a side of nuoc cham, but this variation has no fish sauce in the stock
How well this turns out depends on the quality of the chicken you buy. At the Asian markets, there are different breeds of chicken which have less meat, but are more flavorful.
Hanoi was where I had one of the best chicken pho ever — their menu allows one to select the parts of the chicken they wanted. I've never had the back meat of chicken in a pho before, and it was phenomenal.
And I found out about it from a random cafe barista. Sometimes it pays off just to ask someone where they'd eat nearby.
The phở in the US is from southern Viet Nam, not Hanoi. It is significantly different than traditional Hanoi-style phở. Even in Hanoi the southern style is common, most people seem to prefer it.
Aussie with ~20 years in Asia, periodic trips to Cabramatta and California (lived there awhile). I'm a massive fan of the Laos versions which have huge amounts of fresh greenery. The biggest problem with foreign derivatives is generally they skimp on the greenery, use packet stock or use non-fresh noodles. None of these are acceptable. There's some tomato-in-soupified beef ones with differently shaped rice noodles in Xishuangbanna (sipsongpanna) near the Chinese border with Laos, they're excellent also. The Cantonese origin myth seems bogus: I've never had Cantonese food that celebrated subtlety like a pho, nor would I expect to find it. Lived in Guangdong a few years and visited at least 10 cities + HK + Macao so my opinion is somewhat informed.
I've been told my old stomping ground (Houston) is extremely competitive. I've not eaten Vietnamese outside of Texas, so I can't really compare. It was shocking to me, when I moved to Portland, OR, to not have easy access to pho, banh mi, and vermicelli dishes. They kinda make up for it with poke bowls?
preface: not of VN extraction, I just like the food.
Houston has excellent Vietnamese cuisine. I guess it's Southern Vietnamese style? (can't help but notice the ARVN veterans memorial on Bellaire Blvd.).
In the East, Falls Church in VA has excellent food. But I think the best would have to be Louisiana. No name places with a shrimp boat out back, on the coast, east of New Orleans. I'm told a lot of Vietnamese refugees were resettled there and went into the fishing industry, southern Louisiana and the Mississippi river delta being somewhat similar to Vietnam.
There are so many Vietnamese restaurants in San Jose it's really more similar to the Hanoi recommendation: you just have to experiment until you find the ones that resonate with your personal tastes. I recommend searching reddit for "best pho in San Jose" -- you'll find a number of threads, many of which feature similar sets of restaurants.
I've traveled to Hanoi and absolutely loved the phở there. One perk of living in Berlin is the exceptional Phở we get here. Thanks to the large Vietnamese community we have great phở, Bahn mí (esp at the Dong Xuan center). The phở we get here is top tier too, as confirmed by my Vietnamese friends.
I was just in Hanoi. I stool in line for pho at "michelin rated" shops and had it in tiny stalls manned by a grandma or old couple. always go for the grandma..the michelin ones seem more dilute and cost more. For example, Pho 10 Ly Quoc Su vs. the stall right next to it.
I have a friend who loves Vietnam and was just visiting. His advice is ALWAYS go out of the tourist areas. To paraphrase his words "The more the locals look at you funny, the more authentic it's going to be." And by funny, not in a bad way but more of "uh, you lost there buddy?"
If you can, always ask a local where to go. Most locals don’t want to wait in line unless it’s a special occasion and they know the best underrated and mom and pop restaurants. The ones with lines are usually tourist or internet hype traps and their food gets enshittified quickly.
Back when I lived in Orange County (and didn’t know how to pronounce phở), I used to joke about creating a restaurant that served phở made with Italian noodles and calling it Faux Phở.
I knew that adding sriracha and hoisin was considered somewhat gauche / insulting to the chef. But I was surprised to see no mention of Basil, since every pho shop in the USA provides it. Is that also nontraditional? I really like it...
Agree, I happened upon one in SF and was amused at the insistence there will be none of the bean sprouts, basil, etc. in South Vietnamese style. Although I do love those toppings, I agree this was the best I've had.
There’s a small mention of beef bones having been customarily thrown away and I have doubts that that could be true at all levels of society - unless there was some Vietnamese cultural thing against it that no longer exists.
>How, the novice may ask, does one discover which version is the correct one for oneself?
>There is nothing else to it – you must eat a few hundred bowls of phở and find out. If this requires moving to Hanoi, so be it.
Not the worst life plan, to be honest!
A little bit sad that my own "death bed pho" - chicken pho from that one stall near the market in old quarter - gets just a passing mention as the only acceptable variation to traditional beef pho.
This also brings back memories of our "mystery pho man" - who had three tiny stools and one large pot outside his house every morning, looked like a character straight out of an 80's movie, and was usually sold out by 8am.
Vietnamese food has got significantly better in Toronto in the past 5-10 years - but still haven't found anything that comes even close to Hanoi chicken pho.
My wife, who doesn't eat beef, once asked for chicken pho, and got an extreme talking to. She was sad because she had good chicken pho in the past.
My partner is Vietnamese, and also a chef. I've had every variation of pho one can think of. There is a group of snobs who think they authoritatively own the opinion and can only think of a single acceptable recipe (or chef, for that matter).
But let them be so limited on their own. This isn't a religion. It's a big world out there, and there are a gazillion awesome phos in it.
> There is a group of snobs who think they authoritatively own the opinion and can only think of a single acceptable recipe
Let's talk about Chicago hot dogs
I like mustard AND catsup on mine. I guess that's a big false step to them.
Toronto has awesome hotdog vendors. They serve different types of sausages, and of course weiners ready for the flame grill. They are all large size, and there are a gazillion toppings for you to put on yourself. I've never seen better in the US, or anywhere else for that matter.
What's the best pho you've had in Toronto?
In Orange County, CA there is another variant of pho ga kho, which literally translates to dried chicken pho. The rice noodles and chicken are stir fried, and served with a side of pho ga broth, and a sweet soy sauce.
Pho Dakao, 16171 Brookhurst St, Fountain Valley, CA 92708, United States
Also I got a recipe for pho ga from my aunt which is:
* 6 chicken legs, and 2 bone in breasts (or debone a whole chicken)
* Bring a pot of water to boil
* Parboil all pieces for 2 minutes, throw away the broth
* Char onion and ginger (in an air fryer or on a gas stove - air fryer is easier)
* Toast coriander seeds and star anise
* Add all ingredients back, bring to boil, then drop to a low simmer, and salt
* After 30 minutes remove the pieces, let it cool and debone
* Add the chicken bones back, cook for additional 30 minutes, season with salt and msg
* Optionally serve with a side of nuoc cham, but this variation has no fish sauce in the stock
How well this turns out depends on the quality of the chicken you buy. At the Asian markets, there are different breeds of chicken which have less meat, but are more flavorful.
Any know how to make the pho tai broth?
so pho tai refers to just the raw cut out of beef, you make a traditional beef broth. Here is a short cut way with an instant pot.
* Beef bones (neck or shin, the type of bones you get depend on how intense it will be)
* 1 chicken carcass
* Parboil for 10 minutes, throw away broth, rinse bones
* Parboil chicken carcass for 2 minutes
* Char onion and ginger
* Toast coriander, star anise, cardamom
* Add chicken carcass, bones in an instant pot, covered with water, and some salt and onion and ginger
* High pressure for 15 minutes (depends on quantity)
* Natural release
* Add spices, high pressure for 3 minutes (and if you are added brisket - nam, parboil that first and add it here)
* Season with salt to taste, mushroom seasoning (bot nem), or msg.
* Refrigerate overnight
For tai, you want to cut a some raw meat and just make sure your stock is very hot so it cooks
Thank you for sharing. Never used cardamom and bot nem, so this is also something for me to try.
I've yet to visit Vietnam, but a phở my daughter and I had in Reykjavík was properly life-changing. I get the obsession.
I believe I had the same one? I remember travelling Europe and going to the same place like 3 times while I was in Iceland!
Was it Mama Kitchen? https://mamakitchen.is/
restaurant name if you want to share?
Mama Kitchen. Just super chill lowkey place with incredible food. https://mamakitchen.is/
Click on Mama Kitchen 1 and it shows google map of it in Iceland! Was totally expecting it in the US (as 2 is) or in Vietnam
Hanoi was where I had one of the best chicken pho ever — their menu allows one to select the parts of the chicken they wanted. I've never had the back meat of chicken in a pho before, and it was phenomenal.
And I found out about it from a random cafe barista. Sometimes it pays off just to ask someone where they'd eat nearby.
The phở in the US is from southern Viet Nam, not Hanoi. It is significantly different than traditional Hanoi-style phở. Even in Hanoi the southern style is common, most people seem to prefer it.
Cheekily, might not the "purist" want a "pot-au-feu" ? (i have a sincere dislike of purity talk, especially in cookery)
The article mentions it, but doesn't disprove it.
yeah purity seems overrated for almost anything except making drugs
And semiconductors and air quality perhaps
Aussie with ~20 years in Asia, periodic trips to Cabramatta and California (lived there awhile). I'm a massive fan of the Laos versions which have huge amounts of fresh greenery. The biggest problem with foreign derivatives is generally they skimp on the greenery, use packet stock or use non-fresh noodles. None of these are acceptable. There's some tomato-in-soupified beef ones with differently shaped rice noodles in Xishuangbanna (sipsongpanna) near the Chinese border with Laos, they're excellent also. The Cantonese origin myth seems bogus: I've never had Cantonese food that celebrated subtlety like a pho, nor would I expect to find it. Lived in Guangdong a few years and visited at least 10 cities + HK + Macao so my opinion is somewhat informed.
For us Americans who can’t make it out to Vietnam, I’ve found the best Pho in the US is in Orange County, CA and Boston’s Dorchester neighborhood!
For those that do visit Vietnam admit that it’s better in the USA, too.
I've been told my old stomping ground (Houston) is extremely competitive. I've not eaten Vietnamese outside of Texas, so I can't really compare. It was shocking to me, when I moved to Portland, OR, to not have easy access to pho, banh mi, and vermicelli dishes. They kinda make up for it with poke bowls?
preface: not of VN extraction, I just like the food.
Houston has excellent Vietnamese cuisine. I guess it's Southern Vietnamese style? (can't help but notice the ARVN veterans memorial on Bellaire Blvd.).
In the East, Falls Church in VA has excellent food. But I think the best would have to be Louisiana. No name places with a shrimp boat out back, on the coast, east of New Orleans. I'm told a lot of Vietnamese refugees were resettled there and went into the fishing industry, southern Louisiana and the Mississippi river delta being somewhat similar to Vietnam.
You are missing out on San Jose. It has the largest population Vietnamese diaspora.
Could you please share a list of your favorites in San Jose/Bay Area?
In San Francisco I love having pho in Chinatown. Golden Star Vietnamese Restaurant, Sai's Vietnamese, and Golden Flower are the ones I like the most.
There are so many Vietnamese restaurants in San Jose it's really more similar to the Hanoi recommendation: you just have to experiment until you find the ones that resonate with your personal tastes. I recommend searching reddit for "best pho in San Jose" -- you'll find a number of threads, many of which feature similar sets of restaurants.
I think that used to be true, but it has been overtaken by Houston. Either way, yes, good place to eat Vietnamese food.
Philadelphia also has some incredible Pho shops, most in South Philly.
What are your OC recs?
pho 79 - cash only - this place is still the best and an old legend
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I've traveled to Hanoi and absolutely loved the phở there. One perk of living in Berlin is the exceptional Phở we get here. Thanks to the large Vietnamese community we have great phở, Bahn mí (esp at the Dong Xuan center). The phở we get here is top tier too, as confirmed by my Vietnamese friends.
There's a Bahn mí place in Manchester, UK that does my fav one ever
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I was just in Hanoi. I stool in line for pho at "michelin rated" shops and had it in tiny stalls manned by a grandma or old couple. always go for the grandma..the michelin ones seem more dilute and cost more. For example, Pho 10 Ly Quoc Su vs. the stall right next to it.
I have a friend who loves Vietnam and was just visiting. His advice is ALWAYS go out of the tourist areas. To paraphrase his words "The more the locals look at you funny, the more authentic it's going to be." And by funny, not in a bad way but more of "uh, you lost there buddy?"
If you can, always ask a local where to go. Most locals don’t want to wait in line unless it’s a special occasion and they know the best underrated and mom and pop restaurants. The ones with lines are usually tourist or internet hype traps and their food gets enshittified quickly.
I learned this the hard way during Marti Gras.
Yeah. Some locals assume you’ll only like the touristy stuff though
Back when I lived in Orange County (and didn’t know how to pronounce phở), I used to joke about creating a restaurant that served phở made with Italian noodles and calling it Faux Phở.
Could go Greek-Vietnamese fusion with lamb and call it: "φ Faux Phở"
I knew that adding sriracha and hoisin was considered somewhat gauche / insulting to the chef. But I was surprised to see no mention of Basil, since every pho shop in the USA provides it. Is that also nontraditional? I really like it...
I've never been to Vietnam but there's a Hanoi-style pho place by me and it is head and shoulders better than any other pho I've ever had in the US.
Apparently most pho in the US is southern Vietnamese style?
Agree, I happened upon one in SF and was amused at the insistence there will be none of the bean sprouts, basil, etc. in South Vietnamese style. Although I do love those toppings, I agree this was the best I've had.
Because most Vietnamese people in the US are southern Vietnamese. People who fled during what we'd call the Vietnam War*, and their descendants.
*Not the most recent war in Vietnam
Pho is delicious, but Thai boat noodles soup (guay tiew ruea) is godly; dark, robust, and full of diverse flavors and nuances.
Disappointing that there was not a single picture in the post. And, wow, it’s long!
There’s a small mention of beef bones having been customarily thrown away and I have doubts that that could be true at all levels of society - unless there was some Vietnamese cultural thing against it that no longer exists.
He did speak a little distainfully of taking pictures of your pho or having your phone handy while eating.
I think the lack of pictures emphasizes focusing in the moment and enjoying the experience and then remembering it fondly later.
.. or skipping reading the article if you look at it during some short break
The purest phở is the one that exists only in your imagination.
Real phở has never been tried.
Is consomme the reference precursor implementation?
No pho spots are revealed.