I think this study is important to point out as a point of concern. On the other hand - and I say this from a TB control perspective, where TB-contaminated raw milk is absolutely a vector, particularly for Mycobacterium bovis; I've treated such cases - we don't know if ingesting H5 is as risky for humans. It doesn't seem like a good idea, though, and there are plenty of other things spread by raw milk that definitely can make you ill (enteric bacteria in particular). I go through about three gallons of milk a week personally, but it's pasteurized and off-the-grocery-shelf.
Because free adults should be allowed to choose whether or not they want their milk pasteurized. Obviously it needs to be labeled so people can make an informed decision, but otherwise there's no problem.
Free adults make decisions for children, and there is a long precedent( imo well justified ) of regulating decisions wrt to children: see vaccinations and mandatory schooling.
it is highly regulated, but legal in some states. The inspection process for the dairies is pretty intense as well. I would not buy it to drink, but I have used it to make some really good yogurt (and I pasteurized the milk myself).
Raw milk is like tap water without fluoride. In the context of America people talk like it's an affront to civilization itself, yet in much (not all) of Europe its available with various restrictions and regulations.
Edit for factual context: In the 19th century before the advent of pasteurization and refrigeration, raw milk used to kill lots of kids. But raw milk in America wasn't banned in America until 1987 and 1991 in Canada. Refrigeration made raw milk mostly safe (albeit still gross, IMHO) and most consumers chose pasteurized milk anyway without the government forcing them to. People who think raw milk should obviously be banned like to talk about the Victorian era but not the (far more relevant) 1980s.
And, for the purposes of liquid milk, those restrictions are pretty tight [1] .
In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. Raw milk is used by the French for some cheeses but I'm not sure about liquid milk. With respect to cheese, those made in France with raw milk are, according to wikipedia, "the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning".
I mention this not because I'm sure that raw milk is always bad in all circumstances, I don't know enough to say, but to point out that the degree to which it's available within EU+UK is really quite limited.
> In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks.
So it is also in the American states which permit it. It's a very niche product which is subject to numerous regulations, in some states harsher than others. Generally it's not allowed to be sold in normal stores, you have to go to farms or special dairy stores to get it, state agencies regularly test it (hence this recall), etc.
You're right, but there are a couple of key points you are missing:
1. (And this is the most important) we literally have a solution to it not being safe.
2. When things are unsafe, we (generally) make sure that people are properly educated about the risks. The people pushing raw milk are doing the exact opposite.
3. When something is unsafe, we try to figure out how to make it safe or find an alternative (see 1)
I had been largely oblivious to raw milk until just a few weeks ago when someone suggested I look into it.
From what I can tell, raw milk per se is not likely to be problematic, but problems can get injected if the cows and/or general milking operation are not handled well. Pasteurizing milk could plausibly be seen as a quick fix to not have to deal with such things well. On the other hand, who would I trust to actually handle raw milk with excellence?
Sounds to me like low-temperature pasteurization might be the best compromise? Kills off what is harmful, but supposedly retains more of the original nutrients?
Part of the issue is that the current farms doing it are heavily regulated and also specialize in this product. If there's deregulation, you're going to see a free for all in states with light regulation.
I personally think the whole thing is very stupid, and considering all of the raw milk illnesses that have been occurring (especially with bird flu), the status quo is fine. But if exposure is expanded...
I've heard a few people mention the lack of vitamins in pasteurized milk. I get that heat could destroy some chemicals, so that sort of makes sense, but isn't most milk fortified? I'm not sure it's a huge deal. I don't really care that the vitamin A in my cheese didn't come out of the cow, personally.
I do care that it won't give me food poisoning though, that's a lot higher up the list of concerns than vitamin provenance.
It is broadly accepted that pasteurized milk is lower in vitamin C, but there generally isn't much in dairy products to begin with. There are also reportedly small reductions in vitamins B2 (riboflavin), B12 and E, and folate. However, no reputable nutritional authority has identified these reductions as being physiologically significant.
More controversial assertions circulate around protein and enzyme content, but studies have failed to find anything making raw milk more "digestible" or causing any detectable contribution to immunity or allergy. The FDA has an extensive discussion on this: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/raw-milk-...
Interesting, thanks! I'll give it a read. I didn't know about the "contains probiotic bacteria that secrete lactase" claim with raw milk. It would be weird if lactase/lactase producing bacteria were in big enough quantities in milk, considering how cows (and people) produce it themselves as babies. Seems like wasted effort that would probably be evolved away.
Yes, but it’s voluntarily and unnecessarily unsafe. It’s like scuba diving without a timer. You can do that, but it’s a dumb idea when the alternative is right there and widely available.
Symptoms of foodborne illness usually include:
Vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain
Flu-like symptoms such as fever, headache, and body ache
While most healthy people will recover from an illness caused by harmful germs in raw milk – or in foods made with raw milk – within a short time, some can develop symptoms that are chronic, severe, or even life-threatening. If you or someone you know becomes ill after consuming raw milk or products made from raw milk – or if you are pregnant and think you may have consumed contaminated raw milk or cheese – see a healthcare professional immediately.
The Dangers of Listeria and Pregnancy
Pregnant women run a serious risk of becoming ill from the germ Listeria, which is often found in raw milk and can cause miscarriage, or illness, or death of the newborn baby. If you are pregnant, drinking raw milk — or eating foods made from raw milk — can harm your baby even if you don’t feel sick.
Raw Milk and Serious Illness
Symptoms and Advice
Also note that "often found in raw milk" is only kind of accurate. We've never detected lysteria on our dairy. Both our environmental swabs and raw milk cheese samples have always been negative.
We'd consider it a serious problem if we detected it anywhere (drains, door sills, etc).
There are dangers with raw milk, but to my knowledge no one in my immediate family has gotten ill from raw milk, despite drinking it daily for the last 20-some years.
However, it's from our own dairy, and we know and trust our own sanitation/storage.
FWIW, I'm totally OK with that. You have the personal knowledge to make an informed decision and can take direct steps to ensure your own safety. I see that as a whole different category than actively seeking out unpasteurized milk for routine consumption.
By analogy, my neighbors raise chickens, and they occasionally eat them. I wouldn't think twice about that, or about eating a dinner they shared with me. But darned if I could imagine regularly tracking down raw chicken in a wet market instead of buying it from an FDA-inspected place.
Thank you for the disclosure and the anecdotal account but no sane person would expect an unbiased take on a product from the person that produces that product.
Also, it doesn't get much fresher than owning the cow or the dairy.
Yeah it's the microorganisms that cause food poisoning. There's not some magic unalienable property of pasteurized milk that makes it safe, it's just much less likely to contain microorganisms.
So if you're controlling for risk in other places I think anyone would be fine with that.
But the impact of 1 bad batch of milk getting mixed into a supply for an entire region, is a lot worse than your small scale. The risks probably aren't as well controlled at other farms as well.
Definitely think a difference in scale is a difference in kind here.
I had an uncle that drove without a seatbelt for 20 years, saying almost exactly the same thing. He did end up dying of lung cancer so maybe you're on to something.
It's easy to dodge a lot of bullets when each one has a ~ε% chance of hitting you.
It's interesting how often situations occur where there's a whole lot of people who are RIGHT even though they sound like they have opposed opinions.
Can the human mind unravel the mysteries of why it might be okay to drink raw milk from your own cows while holding large scale commercial endeavors to a higher standard? I think it's possible. I'm optimistic.
Wait until you hear who's going to be nominated to head the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the FDA and other agencies. For now they warn against and prohibit the interstate sale of raw milk [0]. That may not last.
- "Robert Kennedy Jr., the Trump administration’s nominee for secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, is a proponent of raw milk consumption, disclosing in 2023 that it is the only milk he drinks."
He also wants to regulate / ban ultra processed foods.
That’s certainly a good idea, since those products have been repeatedly shown to increase all cause mortality.
However, there is strong industry (and bipartisan) pressure to block the parts of his agenda that make scientific sense, so I’m not particularly optimistic.
Maybe apply pressure to your representatives? This seems like a rare case where they could have a big positive impact.
I don't know what "ultra processed foods" even mean, tbh. Like are you seriously going to ban my keto/high-protein alternatives to sugar laden or carb heavy foods because my zero calorie water flavorant is more processed than freshly squeezed juice? It makes sense to me to regulate hyper-palatable 10-year-expiry junk food but ultra processed foods like meal replacements are useful and necessary for a wide variety of food sensitivities and disabilities.
> For now they warn against and prohibit the interstate sale of raw milk [0]. That may not last.
Nor should it. The government is not my mom, it does not have the right to dictate what I (or anyone else) can and cannot put into my body. By all means, regulate it and come down hard on anyone who doesn't meet the regulations. But an outright ban is stupid and always has been.
Raw milk straight from a cow is generally fine, and I'm told much more delicious (and maybe more healthy? I really don't know about the science on that one). It's when it's had a chance to sit around that the risks increase (which inevitably happens in a commercialised process from the cow to your fridge). I've had pressure-treated unpasteurised milk and I prefer the taste of that over pasteurised.
From my limited understanding of the subject - directly from a local "organic grass fed" dairy farmer - the pathogens you are worried about have little to do with length of time it sits out although longer is of course worse.
I bought unhomongenized milk from him, but he would not even consume his own "home grown" raw milk or feed it to his family the day it was obtained from his cows. He ran everything through a pasteurization process prior to consumption.
I do wonder how many folks actually are preferring the unhomogenized flavor vs. the "raw milk" flavor and simply don't understand the difference? Having had both a long time ago, I really don't think I could have told you the difference in taste.
It's crazy to me such a mundane subject as become a political litmus test. I do wonder how much further society has to fall down this rabbit hole before it recovers - or if it ever does.
I have pasteurized milk straight from a cow in different ways and it is different than raw milk. I prefer the flavored of the pasteurized, but all of them are much better than regular whole milk from the store. Store milk is just more bland in every way, and not just because it's less fatty.
The flavor of milk changes with what the cow eats, so if cows are on pasture then the flavor will change over the year as the grasses change and if they are on hay for part of the year that obviously changes the flavor as well.
I think a lot of the flavor comes from two other factors: fat level (i.e. you can get higher fat than "whole" milk quite easily, although at some point it gets marketed as "cream", which significantly alters the taste) and the cow's diet: you can easily taste the difference between milk marketed as "grassfed" and the cheap stuff in a blind tasting. (Same is true for eggs, I suspect, though I've never tried that particular experiment myself.)
Having it be unhomogenized is at least as big a factor. Side by side it's very hard to tell unhomogenized pasteurized milk apart from raw milk that came from the same dairy. Something about having the fat globules loose in there makes it taste richer, and gives it a different texture.
You can buy unhomogenized milk pretty easily at health food stores etc. People generally don't prefer it though because shaking it is annoying, it curdles more easily in cooked applications, and spoils faster for some reason. But for people with a culinary preference for the "raw" texture it's an option. But most people wanting raw milk want it for political/ideological reasons not gustatory ones. An insane sentence I could not have imagined needing to write 20 years ago.
> Something about having the fat globules loose in there makes it taste richer, and gives it a different texture.
You can also just mix skim milk and cream right before drinking. Tastes richer for a given fat content.
(We started doing this when we had people who wanted skim, 1%, 2%, and whole all sharing a fridge. Though later we ended up with people only wanting whole and the small taste improvement wasn't worth the hassle of mixing anymore.)
"Generally fine" _really_ doesn't matter in the context of farms that produce milk by the hundreds of thousands of gallons; for society in general to not break out with foodborne disease every two weeks milk safety has to be controlled to an extremely careful standard of hygiene. And J Random Farmer can't suddenly stop pasteurizing raw milk unless everything else is held to such a standard.
Raw milk isn't dangerous. People drank it for centuries before pasteurization, and some still drink it today. They were fine. I myself grew up drinking raw milk (grew up on a dairy farm), as did a ton of other people I know, and not one ever got sick.
You don't need to drink it if you don't want to, but there's no reason to deny others the same choice.
Personally, I don't see why anyone uses milk in any form, raw or otherwise.
After being raised to think it was somehow not just OK, but almost mandatory to consume, I stopped all milk consumption, and almost all cheese and other dairy about 20 years ago.
Maybe barely post-cave people needed it to survive, but in the modern world there is 0 reason to be consuming another species lactate.
p.s. I would rate the addition of extra growth hormones (beyond what's already at naturally high levels due to being a lactate) as the biggest long term health problem with milk, moreso than weather it's pasturized or not.
> Maybe barely post-cave people needed it to survive
Milk consumption is generally much more recent than that. Broadly speaking, while the ability for adult humans to digest milk probably arose several times independently in different populations throughout history, for most people of European descent it likely arose around the time the first Proto-Indo-Europeans were migrating from steppes of Asia to Europe. They were horse riders and herders it's likely their ability to digest milk from their herd animals gave them a huge advantage. While migrating it would have been an invaluable food source and likely gave them a physical advantage as well as some studies of remains from this time indicates they were physically larger on average than the native European populations they were displacing, which may help explain how they apparently dominated or assimilated the native groups so easily.
If you look at maps of lactose intolerance world-wide, the countries with the lowest rates generally overlap with countries that speak languages in the Indo-European language family.
I'm sure there's much more nuance to it than that, but lactose tolerance in adults is a relatively modern development.
> but in the modern world there is 0 reason to be consuming another species lactate.
I can think of at least two: many people think dairy products taste good and they are also good sources of nutrition.
There are many good criticisms of the modern dairy industry and our culture in general, but the simple act of using milk from other animals isn't the problem.
hear me out: I want it. It tastes nice, I'm aware of the risks and I'm an adult with the wherewithal to make that decision. I will guarantee you there's some component of your diet that fails the "not strictly necessary and adds long-term health risk" test too.
Unhomogenized pasteurized milk is indistinguishable. I have tried raw side by side with this from the same dairy and even as a working chef, I had to be taught which was which.
Sure milk will help to build them! Vegetable will, too (see gorillas, the biggest and strongest humanoids) or soy for a boost. I don’t think being young add anything, a 40yo could also want to build muscle. You mention that you’re still growing, milk can help here too but also an exceptions: not a single mammal drink milk after babyhood.
I'm not crazy about non-dairy cheeses (though some are getting to be good), but ice cream is firmly in the good enough to great category. I haven't enjoyed drinking milk on its own for so long that it doesn't even register as a concern.
I've noticed some vegan soft cheeses like feta and cream cheese are way, way ahead of the melty or flavourful varieties that are heavily cultured, like blue cheese or parmesan. They seem to fall very short of the goal, but some are still good on a pasta or salad nonetheless.
I found a cookie dough ice cream a few months back that is seriously incredible. I can't recall the brand, but I realized as I ate it that I don't really miss dairy ice cream anymore at all.
I'm still hopeful for something like camembert or cheddar to appear that's as amazing as that cookie dough ice cream. Until then, I'm alright living without them.
I have had some pretty good avocado icecream. But, it was not quite as creamy and I only found chocolate (not sure if the limited flavor selection was because it is niche, or because of something in the nature of avocado).
I'm vegan and I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the statement that non-dairy cheese is tasty. It is also expensive and lots of restaurants don't even offer it as an option.
Sometimes, people aware of one set of risks are not always aware of the others. Drinking raw milk absolutely cares a certain set of risks... but drinking pasteurized does as well.
People who are confused about why one group chooses a different risk need to understand it's not because Californians are dumb (or Europeans or anyone else that drinks it).
The modern world has found a way to pasteurize, blanch, freeze, osmosis, distill, dna splice, or artificially grow many foods. This (mostly) eliminated a class of problems such as Salmonella or other pathogens. The problem is that the nutritional value of the food has taken a drastic decline that has effected the digestion system in many people. Enzymes, bacteria, and other beneficial parts of your diet are also destroyed.
This is an issue because your body requires bacteria to exist. You cannot correctly break down food or fight off viruses without certain bacteria existing inside you. Too much and it becomes an issue, but if you only eat sterile food or living in a sterile bubble you'll find your immune system will not be up to the task of other critical life functions you need to have.
I encourage people to look into the research about gut health and why it's an important part of your immune response.
Of course not, I'm just trying to explain why someone would take on the risks of non-pasteurized or blanched foods.
However, even gut bacteria isn't a true/false question. It's a spectrum with a range of possible values. Someone with low counts of good bacteria would be instructed by their doctors to find fermented foods like yogurt or sauerkraut to consume.
Think about it, you're heating the milk up enough to kill the bacteria right? That's what I'm talking about.
It's funny because when people are instructed by their doctors to eat yogurt to get beneficial bacteria back in their gut, the companies are having to cultivate the bacteria the again, then add it back to the pasteurized dairy to replace the stuff that was killed by pasteurization.
It's like people adding minerals back to water that was filtered to remove everything.
To most people, "nutritional content" means the protein and sugar on the label. There is a lot more to what your body needs though that what is on that little label.
Again, I don't think raw milk is for everyone, but there are reasons why people drink it when they could get the cheaper pasteurized stuff.
"It's like people adding minerals back to water that was filtered to remove everything."
This is a great comparison - I'd much rather they filter out the minerals and the shit and then put the minerals back than have me drink the water with shit still in it.
Sure, but you have to admit that it's still impossible to know if the final product is equally the same as the unadulterated version right?
If it was possible to have a perfect food (or drink) that was totally identical to the theoretically perfect natural version then everyone would want that.
Currently, we have to pick between mostly-working set of alternatives: more natural, more risk or less natural, less risks.
Sure, I know for a fact that the final product isn't the same - this is a good thing. I think you're falling for the fallacy that natural is better. At a most basic level, our ancestors proved hundreds of thousands if not millions of years ago that this is false - natural meat is uncooked meat, but both the bio-availability of the protein and the safety of the food increases with cooking.
> then add it back to the pasteurized dairy to replace the stuff that was killed by pasteurization.
Not quite. They add one or a few strains back that are known to be safe. When you ferment raw milk, you run the risk of other strains being present which can harm you. If they don't create evidence of contamination, you really have no way of knowing.
On a semi-tangent: in cats, drinking raw milk contaminated with H5N1 has a >50% mortality rate (in one cluster investigated by the CDC, n=24).
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0508_article
I think this study is important to point out as a point of concern. On the other hand - and I say this from a TB control perspective, where TB-contaminated raw milk is absolutely a vector, particularly for Mycobacterium bovis; I've treated such cases - we don't know if ingesting H5 is as risky for humans. It doesn't seem like a good idea, though, and there are plenty of other things spread by raw milk that definitely can make you ill (enteric bacteria in particular). I go through about three gallons of milk a week personally, but it's pasteurized and off-the-grocery-shelf.
Well my first question was going to be how are they enforcing a recall when (to my knowledge) it was illegal to sell in the first place.
But apparently California is one of the states where it is legal... why?!?
Because free adults should be allowed to choose whether or not they want their milk pasteurized. Obviously it needs to be labeled so people can make an informed decision, but otherwise there's no problem.
Free adults make decisions for children, and there is a long precedent( imo well justified ) of regulating decisions wrt to children: see vaccinations and mandatory schooling.
it is highly regulated, but legal in some states. The inspection process for the dairies is pretty intense as well. I would not buy it to drink, but I have used it to make some really good yogurt (and I pasteurized the milk myself).
There is a consistent movement that raw milk is healthier for you than pasteurized milk, in the influence sphere of Wellness(tm).
Raw milk is like tap water without fluoride. In the context of America people talk like it's an affront to civilization itself, yet in much (not all) of Europe its available with various restrictions and regulations.
Edit for factual context: In the 19th century before the advent of pasteurization and refrigeration, raw milk used to kill lots of kids. But raw milk in America wasn't banned in America until 1987 and 1991 in Canada. Refrigeration made raw milk mostly safe (albeit still gross, IMHO) and most consumers chose pasteurized milk anyway without the government forcing them to. People who think raw milk should obviously be banned like to talk about the Victorian era but not the (far more relevant) 1980s.
And, for the purposes of liquid milk, those restrictions are pretty tight [1] .
In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. Raw milk is used by the French for some cheeses but I'm not sure about liquid milk. With respect to cheese, those made in France with raw milk are, according to wikipedia, "the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning".
I mention this not because I'm sure that raw milk is always bad in all circumstances, I don't know enough to say, but to point out that the degree to which it's available within EU+UK is really quite limited.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Europe
> In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks.
So it is also in the American states which permit it. It's a very niche product which is subject to numerous regulations, in some states harsher than others. Generally it's not allowed to be sold in normal stores, you have to go to farms or special dairy stores to get it, state agencies regularly test it (hence this recall), etc.
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42238651
Now, how am I supposed to source my raw milk for my family of four?
Incidents like this are what I find concerning about RFKs enthusiasm for raw milk. People have literally died from drinking this biohazard material.
Raw milk is dangerous anyway, bird flu or no bird flu I'm surprised its sold.
Lots of dangerous things are sold, and raw milk isn't anywhere near the top of the list.
You're right, but there are a couple of key points you are missing:
1. (And this is the most important) we literally have a solution to it not being safe.
2. When things are unsafe, we (generally) make sure that people are properly educated about the risks. The people pushing raw milk are doing the exact opposite.
3. When something is unsafe, we try to figure out how to make it safe or find an alternative (see 1)
I had been largely oblivious to raw milk until just a few weeks ago when someone suggested I look into it.
From what I can tell, raw milk per se is not likely to be problematic, but problems can get injected if the cows and/or general milking operation are not handled well. Pasteurizing milk could plausibly be seen as a quick fix to not have to deal with such things well. On the other hand, who would I trust to actually handle raw milk with excellence?
Sounds to me like low-temperature pasteurization might be the best compromise? Kills off what is harmful, but supposedly retains more of the original nutrients?
> raw milk per se is not likely to be problematic
Part of the issue is that the current farms doing it are heavily regulated and also specialize in this product. If there's deregulation, you're going to see a free for all in states with light regulation.
I personally think the whole thing is very stupid, and considering all of the raw milk illnesses that have been occurring (especially with bird flu), the status quo is fine. But if exposure is expanded...
I've heard a few people mention the lack of vitamins in pasteurized milk. I get that heat could destroy some chemicals, so that sort of makes sense, but isn't most milk fortified? I'm not sure it's a huge deal. I don't really care that the vitamin A in my cheese didn't come out of the cow, personally.
I do care that it won't give me food poisoning though, that's a lot higher up the list of concerns than vitamin provenance.
It is broadly accepted that pasteurized milk is lower in vitamin C, but there generally isn't much in dairy products to begin with. There are also reportedly small reductions in vitamins B2 (riboflavin), B12 and E, and folate. However, no reputable nutritional authority has identified these reductions as being physiologically significant.
More controversial assertions circulate around protein and enzyme content, but studies have failed to find anything making raw milk more "digestible" or causing any detectable contribution to immunity or allergy. The FDA has an extensive discussion on this: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/raw-milk-...
Interesting, thanks! I'll give it a read. I didn't know about the "contains probiotic bacteria that secrete lactase" claim with raw milk. It would be weird if lactase/lactase producing bacteria were in big enough quantities in milk, considering how cows (and people) produce it themselves as babies. Seems like wasted effort that would probably be evolved away.
Yes, but it’s voluntarily and unnecessarily unsafe. It’s like scuba diving without a timer. You can do that, but it’s a dumb idea when the alternative is right there and widely available.
From the FDA: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/dangers-r...
Symptoms of foodborne illness usually include: Vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain Flu-like symptoms such as fever, headache, and body ache
While most healthy people will recover from an illness caused by harmful germs in raw milk – or in foods made with raw milk – within a short time, some can develop symptoms that are chronic, severe, or even life-threatening. If you or someone you know becomes ill after consuming raw milk or products made from raw milk – or if you are pregnant and think you may have consumed contaminated raw milk or cheese – see a healthcare professional immediately.
The Dangers of Listeria and Pregnancy Pregnant women run a serious risk of becoming ill from the germ Listeria, which is often found in raw milk and can cause miscarriage, or illness, or death of the newborn baby. If you are pregnant, drinking raw milk — or eating foods made from raw milk — can harm your baby even if you don’t feel sick. Raw Milk and Serious Illness Symptoms and Advice
Also note that "often found in raw milk" is only kind of accurate. We've never detected lysteria on our dairy. Both our environmental swabs and raw milk cheese samples have always been negative.
We'd consider it a serious problem if we detected it anywhere (drains, door sills, etc).
There are dangers with raw milk, but to my knowledge no one in my immediate family has gotten ill from raw milk, despite drinking it daily for the last 20-some years.
However, it's from our own dairy, and we know and trust our own sanitation/storage.
FWIW, I'm totally OK with that. You have the personal knowledge to make an informed decision and can take direct steps to ensure your own safety. I see that as a whole different category than actively seeking out unpasteurized milk for routine consumption.
By analogy, my neighbors raise chickens, and they occasionally eat them. I wouldn't think twice about that, or about eating a dinner they shared with me. But darned if I could imagine regularly tracking down raw chicken in a wet market instead of buying it from an FDA-inspected place.
Thank you for the disclosure and the anecdotal account but no sane person would expect an unbiased take on a product from the person that produces that product. Also, it doesn't get much fresher than owning the cow or the dairy.
Yeah it's the microorganisms that cause food poisoning. There's not some magic unalienable property of pasteurized milk that makes it safe, it's just much less likely to contain microorganisms.
So if you're controlling for risk in other places I think anyone would be fine with that.
But the impact of 1 bad batch of milk getting mixed into a supply for an entire region, is a lot worse than your small scale. The risks probably aren't as well controlled at other farms as well.
Definitely think a difference in scale is a difference in kind here.
I had an uncle that drove without a seatbelt for 20 years, saying almost exactly the same thing. He did end up dying of lung cancer so maybe you're on to something.
It's easy to dodge a lot of bullets when each one has a ~ε% chance of hitting you.
It's interesting how often situations occur where there's a whole lot of people who are RIGHT even though they sound like they have opposed opinions.
Can the human mind unravel the mysteries of why it might be okay to drink raw milk from your own cows while holding large scale commercial endeavors to a higher standard? I think it's possible. I'm optimistic.
I'll continue wearing my seatbelt to protect myself from lung cancer, in that case.
Wait until you hear who's going to be nominated to head the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the FDA and other agencies. For now they warn against and prohibit the interstate sale of raw milk [0]. That may not last.
[0] https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/food-safe...
For those blissfully ignorant:
- "Robert Kennedy Jr., the Trump administration’s nominee for secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, is a proponent of raw milk consumption, disclosing in 2023 that it is the only milk he drinks."
https://www.statnews.com/2024/11/24/bird-flu-h5n1-raw-milk-l...
He also wants to regulate / ban ultra processed foods.
That’s certainly a good idea, since those products have been repeatedly shown to increase all cause mortality.
However, there is strong industry (and bipartisan) pressure to block the parts of his agenda that make scientific sense, so I’m not particularly optimistic.
Maybe apply pressure to your representatives? This seems like a rare case where they could have a big positive impact.
I don't know what "ultra processed foods" even mean, tbh. Like are you seriously going to ban my keto/high-protein alternatives to sugar laden or carb heavy foods because my zero calorie water flavorant is more processed than freshly squeezed juice? It makes sense to me to regulate hyper-palatable 10-year-expiry junk food but ultra processed foods like meal replacements are useful and necessary for a wide variety of food sensitivities and disabilities.
> For now they warn against and prohibit the interstate sale of raw milk [0]. That may not last.
Nor should it. The government is not my mom, it does not have the right to dictate what I (or anyone else) can and cannot put into my body. By all means, regulate it and come down hard on anyone who doesn't meet the regulations. But an outright ban is stupid and always has been.
Raw milk straight from a cow is generally fine, and I'm told much more delicious (and maybe more healthy? I really don't know about the science on that one). It's when it's had a chance to sit around that the risks increase (which inevitably happens in a commercialised process from the cow to your fridge). I've had pressure-treated unpasteurised milk and I prefer the taste of that over pasteurised.
From my limited understanding of the subject - directly from a local "organic grass fed" dairy farmer - the pathogens you are worried about have little to do with length of time it sits out although longer is of course worse.
I bought unhomongenized milk from him, but he would not even consume his own "home grown" raw milk or feed it to his family the day it was obtained from his cows. He ran everything through a pasteurization process prior to consumption.
I do wonder how many folks actually are preferring the unhomogenized flavor vs. the "raw milk" flavor and simply don't understand the difference? Having had both a long time ago, I really don't think I could have told you the difference in taste.
It's crazy to me such a mundane subject as become a political litmus test. I do wonder how much further society has to fall down this rabbit hole before it recovers - or if it ever does.
I have pasteurized milk straight from a cow in different ways and it is different than raw milk. I prefer the flavored of the pasteurized, but all of them are much better than regular whole milk from the store. Store milk is just more bland in every way, and not just because it's less fatty.
The flavor of milk changes with what the cow eats, so if cows are on pasture then the flavor will change over the year as the grasses change and if they are on hay for part of the year that obviously changes the flavor as well.
I think a lot of the flavor comes from two other factors: fat level (i.e. you can get higher fat than "whole" milk quite easily, although at some point it gets marketed as "cream", which significantly alters the taste) and the cow's diet: you can easily taste the difference between milk marketed as "grassfed" and the cheap stuff in a blind tasting. (Same is true for eggs, I suspect, though I've never tried that particular experiment myself.)
Having it be unhomogenized is at least as big a factor. Side by side it's very hard to tell unhomogenized pasteurized milk apart from raw milk that came from the same dairy. Something about having the fat globules loose in there makes it taste richer, and gives it a different texture.
You can buy unhomogenized milk pretty easily at health food stores etc. People generally don't prefer it though because shaking it is annoying, it curdles more easily in cooked applications, and spoils faster for some reason. But for people with a culinary preference for the "raw" texture it's an option. But most people wanting raw milk want it for political/ideological reasons not gustatory ones. An insane sentence I could not have imagined needing to write 20 years ago.
> Something about having the fat globules loose in there makes it taste richer, and gives it a different texture.
You can also just mix skim milk and cream right before drinking. Tastes richer for a given fat content.
(We started doing this when we had people who wanted skim, 1%, 2%, and whole all sharing a fridge. Though later we ended up with people only wanting whole and the small taste improvement wasn't worth the hassle of mixing anymore.)
"Generally fine" _really_ doesn't matter in the context of farms that produce milk by the hundreds of thousands of gallons; for society in general to not break out with foodborne disease every two weeks milk safety has to be controlled to an extremely careful standard of hygiene. And J Random Farmer can't suddenly stop pasteurizing raw milk unless everything else is held to such a standard.
Raw milk isn't dangerous. People drank it for centuries before pasteurization, and some still drink it today. They were fine. I myself grew up drinking raw milk (grew up on a dairy farm), as did a ton of other people I know, and not one ever got sick.
You don't need to drink it if you don't want to, but there's no reason to deny others the same choice.
Personally, I don't see why anyone uses milk in any form, raw or otherwise.
After being raised to think it was somehow not just OK, but almost mandatory to consume, I stopped all milk consumption, and almost all cheese and other dairy about 20 years ago.
Maybe barely post-cave people needed it to survive, but in the modern world there is 0 reason to be consuming another species lactate.
p.s. I would rate the addition of extra growth hormones (beyond what's already at naturally high levels due to being a lactate) as the biggest long term health problem with milk, moreso than weather it's pasturized or not.
> Maybe barely post-cave people needed it to survive
Milk consumption is generally much more recent than that. Broadly speaking, while the ability for adult humans to digest milk probably arose several times independently in different populations throughout history, for most people of European descent it likely arose around the time the first Proto-Indo-Europeans were migrating from steppes of Asia to Europe. They were horse riders and herders it's likely their ability to digest milk from their herd animals gave them a huge advantage. While migrating it would have been an invaluable food source and likely gave them a physical advantage as well as some studies of remains from this time indicates they were physically larger on average than the native European populations they were displacing, which may help explain how they apparently dominated or assimilated the native groups so easily.
If you look at maps of lactose intolerance world-wide, the countries with the lowest rates generally overlap with countries that speak languages in the Indo-European language family.
I'm sure there's much more nuance to it than that, but lactose tolerance in adults is a relatively modern development.
> but in the modern world there is 0 reason to be consuming another species lactate.
I can think of at least two: many people think dairy products taste good and they are also good sources of nutrition.
There are many good criticisms of the modern dairy industry and our culture in general, but the simple act of using milk from other animals isn't the problem.
hear me out: I want it. It tastes nice, I'm aware of the risks and I'm an adult with the wherewithal to make that decision. I will guarantee you there's some component of your diet that fails the "not strictly necessary and adds long-term health risk" test too.
Unhomogenized pasteurized milk is indistinguishable. I have tried raw side by side with this from the same dairy and even as a working chef, I had to be taught which was which.
Because I am a young (and small) mammal that is still growing and hoping to put on as much muscle as possible. :)
I'm quite literally who milk was made for.
Your point about species is valid though and I can't say that if given an ample supply of human milk, I would be inclined to consume it.
Sure milk will help to build them! Vegetable will, too (see gorillas, the biggest and strongest humanoids) or soy for a boost. I don’t think being young add anything, a 40yo could also want to build muscle. You mention that you’re still growing, milk can help here too but also an exceptions: not a single mammal drink milk after babyhood.
> After being raised to think it was somehow not just OK, but almost mandatory to consume
Congratulation to overcome your family’s beliefs. How did you do? Habits refrain rational thinking, it’s hard to overcome them, especially for adults.
I can’t stand milk but I can’t imagine giving up cheese and icecream.
Non dairy versions are pretty widely available and really tasty
I'm not crazy about non-dairy cheeses (though some are getting to be good), but ice cream is firmly in the good enough to great category. I haven't enjoyed drinking milk on its own for so long that it doesn't even register as a concern.
I've noticed some vegan soft cheeses like feta and cream cheese are way, way ahead of the melty or flavourful varieties that are heavily cultured, like blue cheese or parmesan. They seem to fall very short of the goal, but some are still good on a pasta or salad nonetheless.
I found a cookie dough ice cream a few months back that is seriously incredible. I can't recall the brand, but I realized as I ate it that I don't really miss dairy ice cream anymore at all.
I'm still hopeful for something like camembert or cheddar to appear that's as amazing as that cookie dough ice cream. Until then, I'm alright living without them.
I’m not American but if I would keep one think of this country, it would be diary-free Ben and Jerry’s without a spoon of hesitation.
I have had some pretty good avocado icecream. But, it was not quite as creamy and I only found chocolate (not sure if the limited flavor selection was because it is niche, or because of something in the nature of avocado).
I'm vegan and I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the statement that non-dairy cheese is tasty. It is also expensive and lots of restaurants don't even offer it as an option.
That's certainly a take. Non-dairy ice cream and cheese is utter garbage in my opinion. Not worth the calories.
Sometimes, people aware of one set of risks are not always aware of the others. Drinking raw milk absolutely cares a certain set of risks... but drinking pasteurized does as well.
People who are confused about why one group chooses a different risk need to understand it's not because Californians are dumb (or Europeans or anyone else that drinks it).
The modern world has found a way to pasteurize, blanch, freeze, osmosis, distill, dna splice, or artificially grow many foods. This (mostly) eliminated a class of problems such as Salmonella or other pathogens. The problem is that the nutritional value of the food has taken a drastic decline that has effected the digestion system in many people. Enzymes, bacteria, and other beneficial parts of your diet are also destroyed.
This is an issue because your body requires bacteria to exist. You cannot correctly break down food or fight off viruses without certain bacteria existing inside you. Too much and it becomes an issue, but if you only eat sterile food or living in a sterile bubble you'll find your immune system will not be up to the task of other critical life functions you need to have.
I encourage people to look into the research about gut health and why it's an important part of your immune response.
Do you think people who drink pasteurized milk don't have bacteria?
Of course not, I'm just trying to explain why someone would take on the risks of non-pasteurized or blanched foods.
However, even gut bacteria isn't a true/false question. It's a spectrum with a range of possible values. Someone with low counts of good bacteria would be instructed by their doctors to find fermented foods like yogurt or sauerkraut to consume.
do you really think briefly cooking milk significantly reduces its nutritional content
Think about it, you're heating the milk up enough to kill the bacteria right? That's what I'm talking about.
It's funny because when people are instructed by their doctors to eat yogurt to get beneficial bacteria back in their gut, the companies are having to cultivate the bacteria the again, then add it back to the pasteurized dairy to replace the stuff that was killed by pasteurization.
It's like people adding minerals back to water that was filtered to remove everything.
To most people, "nutritional content" means the protein and sugar on the label. There is a lot more to what your body needs though that what is on that little label.
Again, I don't think raw milk is for everyone, but there are reasons why people drink it when they could get the cheaper pasteurized stuff.
"It's like people adding minerals back to water that was filtered to remove everything."
This is a great comparison - I'd much rather they filter out the minerals and the shit and then put the minerals back than have me drink the water with shit still in it.
Sure, but you have to admit that it's still impossible to know if the final product is equally the same as the unadulterated version right?
If it was possible to have a perfect food (or drink) that was totally identical to the theoretically perfect natural version then everyone would want that.
Currently, we have to pick between mostly-working set of alternatives: more natural, more risk or less natural, less risks.
Sure, I know for a fact that the final product isn't the same - this is a good thing. I think you're falling for the fallacy that natural is better. At a most basic level, our ancestors proved hundreds of thousands if not millions of years ago that this is false - natural meat is uncooked meat, but both the bio-availability of the protein and the safety of the food increases with cooking.
> then add it back to the pasteurized dairy to replace the stuff that was killed by pasteurization.
Not quite. They add one or a few strains back that are known to be safe. When you ferment raw milk, you run the risk of other strains being present which can harm you. If they don't create evidence of contamination, you really have no way of knowing.
Yes, but you understand the concept right? Some people are less worried about sudden death than degraded long-term performance.
There is a reason bodybuilders look at what type of protein they're eating instead of just getting the cheapest soy off the shelf.
Not everyone wants a couple cultured strains, they want the whole raw milk package and are okay with the risks.