I sometimes chuckle that most of the cool Lexuses are now Priuses under the hood!
But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids are one of those things that I can say I’ve completely changed my mind about. I used to dislike the idea of hybrids, because I assumed that the overall system complexity must be higher than either an ICE, or an EV. And I’m a sucker for simple systems, so I thought it’s either EV, or nothing.
Then I looked into how hybrids work. Specifically Toyota hybrids. And came away totally amazed. It’s an amazing system, and much simpler than a traditional ICE car. It doesn’t really have a gearbox, or a clutch, or a starter. The engine is a normal atmospheric engine, so no turbines, overcompression, and the issues that come with it. Furthermore, the engine is typically configured to use the Atkinson cycle, which puts less stress on it. And, the engine has a chain drive, so no belts to change, and by design gets stressed a lot less than in a traditional ICE, because the stop-start load is carried by the electric motor. Also, it can’t really have trouble starting in cold weather, much like an EV. All of that boils down to crazy reliability.
I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Other companies have hybrids that are liable to my original concerns about massively increased complexity. As an example, VW hybrids have an electric motor within their DSG gearbox. So you have all the complexity of their modern ICEs (turbines, DSG, whatnot) plus additional hybrid related complexity.
The Prius system is an excellent design, but as someone that loves driving, it just feels and drives awful- little tactile or audible feedback on any of the controls, and really unresponsive to inputs- arguably dangerously so. My regular daily driver is an old Porsche Boxster, and by comparison the Prius feels like I’m driving a dishwasher or playing a cheap arcade game- it will get you there reliably but it’s just not any fun. Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving. My sister has an Audi A3 e-tron hybrid (basically an upscale VW Golf) that is extremely fun to drive, but also a very complex drivetrain and engine.
I think a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically- like the BMW i3 REX is the way to go. It’s even simpler and lighter than the Prius system, allowing for a much larger battery and more powerful electric motor.
> Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving.
Or, you could reengineer your too-short life so you waste less time driving.
It’s fine if you like driving and want to have a nice car - connoisseurs abound in all fields. But for 99% of people it’s not an issue worth optimizing for.
That’s actually part of it for me- I often work from home and have very little required driving- so I do mostly see driving as a recreational activity. If I’m going to visit a remote beach or mountain lake for fun on the weekend, I want the drive down a long winding road to be fun also.
I honestly never quite understood this perspective or why it's so popular... in general I try to always find ways to do normal life things a little weird, or make it a little more challenging, fun, and memorable- and try to break up the routine drudgery. Even just getting groceries can be a fun adventure with my kid if we put the top down on the Porsche, play some music we love, and maybe go to a weird store that targets a different culture, or has weird surplus/unsold items.
Doing things 'weird' usually makes them cheaper and less crowded/faster as well- as a result of less demand.
A significant chunk of the crowd here is very anti-car (to varying degrees), so I wouldn’t expect much sympathy if you’re the type of person that enjoys driving. I’d cut your losses in trying to argue your point…and go enjoy driving your car!
As somewhat of an old timer (turning 43), I remember the techie population seemed to overlap a lot with the car enthusiast population a long time ago. Nearly everyone at my first job (small startup) was a car nerd. A lot of engineering and tech goes into cars after all.
Somewhere along the way a lot of techies became very anti-car.
Cars have a lot of unpriced externalities. I see them as a necessary evil. I'd rather future generations had less pollution and more natural resources to enjoy.
I feel the same as you about the awful externalities, but doing it anyway and refusing to enjoy it as 'penance' just isn't how I would want to deal with that. I really love driving, love the freedom of exploring things in cars, and love working on and fixing them. Instead, I work on sustainable biofuel tech- and even as a hobby use and test it out in my own vehicles.
Props to you for exploring some ways of mitigating the damage of your hobbies. I prefer EVs despite their increased road wear (at least compared to vehicles that haven't been super sized).
Having driven a lot in my youth, it's just not something I enjoy regardless. I'd rather spend the time and resources on other things. Even taking a longer bike ride to the store is preferred because it's exercise, almost everyone on the trail nods or waves back, and I know my choice is better for everyone in the community.
I also love cycling and engineless sailing- and see cycling as more practical transport around town, and cars for long distance recreational trips. In my lifetime I have put far more miles on bicycles than cars, as I’ve almost always had a daily bicycle commute to work. Sadly I no longer have a situation where bicycle commuting is possible, and miss it.
Yeah, I am about your age, and it is taboo in my work and social circle to even drive a sports car- I can tell most people I know see it as ostentatious, which I am annoyed by since I bought it for less than 1/10th the price of what most of them drive, and I find it fun, I don't care to impress anyone.
I do have a wife, not planning on more kids. I'm a bit of a car nerd and have a bunch of older cars I maintain myself- including several that fit the whole family- all of them together costing less than a newer economy car. There are plenty of large cars that are still fun to drive. A Porsche Cayenne/VW Touareg/Audi Q7 can tow as much as a full sized truck, seat 5 in comfort, offroad as well as almost anything, and post sports car worthy track lap times- and you can get a nice one for 5-10 grand on Craigslist nowadays.
There are some fun weird vans. I've always loved the Toyota HiAce, Mitsubishi Delica, and other strange Japanese minvans with weird features like built in karaoke machines, beverage coolers, tiny diesel engines, and real truck 4x4 systems. Also love the old VW vanagons.
They used to run (tongue in cheek) ads for the Boxster with the slogan "The more kids you have, the more practical it becomes" and that it fits "Two child seats. Up front." There's some truth to that- if you have a large family you will likely have multiple cars, it can still make sense for one of them to just take two people for 1 on 1 activities.
I tow with my mk4 tdi all the time, it’s incredibly handy. A lot of towing is bulky stuff that’s not necessarily heavy. There’s still a time and place for a truck, or a full-size truck, but not for everyone.
Haha... weirdly, I've also done a ton of towing with MKIV ALH TDIs. They're absolutely excellent vehicles for towing, and hardly use any fuel while doing so. Sometimes it gets a lot of unwanted attention - especially at a boat ramp, because Americans don't expect cars to be able to tow like that.
When I was in Ireland for work, I saw that a huge fraction of the farmers use MKIV TDIs for their farm work vehicles- they're all over the place pulling huge trailers full of livestock and hay, and still using half the fuel of most cars that are unloaded.
I assure you there is no bait- it’s an example of things that would make an everyday chore fun to me, and needs no justification. I would suggest you do what would make it fun to you.
I’m an outlier here but I especially prefer to drive a manual transmission sports car with good handling and lots of driver/road feedback in heavy traffic- as it’s a lot more engaging and easier to stay focused and not bored. I’ve heard the same from others with ADHD. The visibility and maneuverability is also helpful for avoiding potholes and other drivers mistakes. I’d still have a ton of fun driving even a Prius on a real track- but if driving through a crowded city I especially want a convertible sports car.
Not the OP. At the end of the day it’s just taste, right?
I use Linux, EMacs with vim keybindings and a dark color palette. Coding this way makes me feel good, I like the aesthetics. If they tried to force me to use Windows, and an IDE with a light color palette, I’d seriously consider quitting. It’s totally irrational, but it is what it is :D
The Boxster is mid-engined so there is no back seat, but a usable trunk at each end. The front trunk is takes up the entire space of a normal engine bay, and is surprisingly massive for how small the car is, because it is very deep.
Overall the Boxster is a surprisingly practical car- it was very cheap (cheaper than an old Prius of the same age) but now appreciating in value with age, can use a 3+ carpool lane with 2 people, is tiny so easy to park anywhere, and it is actually very reliable and low maintenance.
After 15 years of owning a Prius, I recently traded it in for a hybrid Toyota RAV4. I love the hybrid technology.
For me, the hybrid is fun to drive. I've never experienced any unresponsive inputs or lack of feedback in performance. The fun comes in at trying to keep the gas engine off as much as possible -- without going becoming a hypermiler and irritating other drivers -- both in city and long distance driving.
Hypermiling can be fun. I’ve also enjoyed a sort of anti-hypermiling: basically configuring and tuning a car such that it can be driven hard and still return amazing fuel economy. I’ve managed to configure a few small diesel vehicles like the VW TDIs such that they still get Prius level 50+ mpg when driven nearly flat out.
To be fair, you are contrasting an econobox with one of the all-time great driver’s cars :) I bet I have enough fingers to count cars more fun to drive than a Boxster.
I do agree about the Prius, though. It feels like driving a dishwasher.
I don’t the comparison with a sports car is particular fair.
I regularly drive both a 2011 Prius and a 2023 BMW X1 “mild hybrid”, I’ve also test driven an iX1 electric and X3 “real” hybrid recently (all practical family cars).
In order of increasing accelerator-input-to-actually-moving (at low speed) delay:
iX1 electric (best)
Prius
X3 hybrid
X1 mild hybrid (worst, dangerously bad)
That is to say, every time I get into the 14 year old Prius I think “wow this is nippy” after having driven the 2 year old X1, which we’ve nicknamed “the lag wagon”.
Toyota really nailed the driving ergonomics of the gen2 Prius, given the constraints. Yes, it’s a slow to accelerate at high speeds, but it’s still really nice drive around town.
Yes, a range extender EV like the BMW i3 REx is technically a series hybrid, but it is designed to operate most of the time on electricity only and be plugged in to charge- with a large EV size battery and a very small lightweight moped engine in the extender.
The range extender basically gives you protection from range anxiety, but isn't used at all in normal use of the vehicle. On the i3, it only starts the engine when the battery is nearly empty, but some people do software mods to be able to use the vehicle as a true series hybrid, and run the engine continuously for doing long distance freeway driving without stopping to charge.
>I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Don't forget the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid that was just released. Using the Toyota Hybrid from the RAV4 with the elegance and beauty of Mazda design.
The non-hybrid version of the CX-50 is rated for quite good fuel economy. I encourage you to do the math on your own and check my results: it is unlikely that a buyer would ever save money by getting the hybrid option considering that they will likely keep it for no more than 7 years and that the non-hybrid will have larger discounts than the hybrid.
For the reason you stated in the last paragraph I eventually opted against getting a Hyundai Ioniq in favour of a Toyota.
The Hyundai felt like driving a regular automatic, so it would occasionally lunge awkwardly and spin the engine in situations where Toyotas switch to EV mode.
Sure it had better fuel economy, but I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input or make noise when it shouldn't.
> I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input
I'm spoiled from years of Priuses now, and driving gas cars, even fancy and expensive ones, feels bizarrely primitive. The lag between the pedal and the response, and the complex relationship between the input and the response, feels antiquated and arcane.
A while ago I rented a regular car and what bugged me was all the additional vibration associated with parts grinding and rolling against each other.
Also at least once I almost went "woah, horsie" as the car lunged forward because I tapped the accelerator a moment after it shifted to a lower gear without me noticing.
It used to be even worse. I had an opportunity to drive a 2005 BMW 7 series in a city where the speed limit was 30km/h. Unfortunately the gearbox was from a time way before traffic calming etc. went mainstream, so it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I ended up switching to manual gear selection mode.
I had a loaner Ford Bronco Sport when I was having some maintenance on my hybrid. It had a 8 speed transmission and a turbo. Going from the super smooth eCTV to a vehicle that would jerk from shift changes/turbo when you just thought about touching the gas pedal has has put me off buying a vehicle with a normal transmission
To be fair, it did take some time for me to get used to how a hybrid sounds. It’s fine when not driving aggressively. When you floor it though, it does feel weird when the engine jumps to the highest safe revs and stays there. That’s a small price to pay for reliability and smooth power delivery though.
I actually prefer that over the usual revs going up and down depending on speed. I'm not American so my default before hybrids was driving stick. Never liked this steampunk-esque drama of moving from a standstill in such a car
Anyway revs do go up over a certain speed, but you need to be on the Autobahn to legally test it.
Not sure exactly what you mean. As in, hybrids don’t have a CVT transmission, one with belts and the thing that changes diameter to achieve variability. Haven’t had one, but heard only bad things about those.
But yes, in that the power transmission is variable (e-CVT, right?), and that sounds a bit weird. You’ve spent so much time hearing how the engine gets louder with acceleration that it feels weird when the engine behaves slightly differently.
But again, that doesn’t bother me enough to buy a less reliable system.
Yeah I meant e-CVT. We actually own a highlander hybrid with e-CVT.
Actually every vehicle I've driven was CVT/e-CVT. 14 Corolla, 18 RAV4, 21 Highlander hybrid and 24 Integra. All super reliable. I'd still say CVT bothers me and I love it every time I get to rent a vehicle with traditional automatic.
My ICE CVT is like that, and hybrid systems behave sort of like CVTs.
The computer has an idea of "At this low RPM the engine is most efficient, at this high RPM it produces maximum horsepower". So if you floor it, the computer in either a CVT or a hybrid will bring the engine to full power and it will just sit there as the car accelerates.
The engine is getting loaded up and putting out more torque, and the throttle is opening, but it isn't really revving. In mine it does slowly climb from maybe 4,000 to 5,000 RPM, but it doesn't do the "rrrrRRRRRR... rrrrrrrRRRRR..." like a transmission with fixed gear ratios.
Looks like a series hybrid with a clutch that bypasses the generator for a high-efficiency overdrive gear. It's simpler than the planetary gear system in a Prius, but they must have made the drive motor (equivalent to MG2 in Prius diagrams) bigger if they never combine power from both MG2 and the ICE. Or, that's not shown in the diagram.
Not a challenge, but a plea: where's your source(s) for this? I'm about where you were, but would love to know more about the internals so I can make an informed choice when my current (ICE) car dies.
The wikipedia page is quite in depth [0] but is quite dense and took me a few goes to understand. They're fascinating to understand, and they really are mechanically simpler than a standard ICE + gearbox drive line. I got nerd sniped one day figuring out how my Toyota Crown "gearbox" worked only to discover it doesn't really have one. They don't even have a real neutral gear, the wheels are always mechanically linked to the engine.
They require much more active computer control to work though so they aren't logically simpler in my opinion, but mechanical simplicity is what makes the biggest difference.
There are certainly better more approachable sources though so I leave this as an option as the info is there, but can take a moment to understand.
The way I think of it comes from the old ME degree I got. You can analyze assemblies by the number of degrees of freedom. Three degrees of freedom, like three linkages pinned at the corners is a triangle and the relative positions of each element are fixed.
Four axis, like a square pinned at the corners if you know the relative position of two elements you know the position of the others. This is the basis for most traditional machines.
Five axis is floppy. And usually avoided traditionally.
The synergy drive is a five axis machine mechanically. But has two electric motor generators. By varying the speed of the motors you can control the gear ratio of the mechanical path. Since the motor speeds are indignantly variable so is the mechanical path. You end up with continuously variable transmission with a mechanical power path and an electric one in parallel. And it doesn't suck like pure mechanical ones.
I’m with you in general. Though, with the amount of electronics and “computer-complexity” that modern ICE cars have, I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference!
That's really good, I watched one of their older videos to understand what I was getting into before I bought a Toyota a few years back. For those reading, the video is from Weber State University, they have a series of hourish long detailed videos on various automotive components including different versions of the Toyota electric transaxle and rear electric drive unit (mechanically separate but present in the AWD vehicles).
My takeaway was the same as some of the other posters here, the system is an engineering tour de force. Simpler than the gas version, proven reliability, and efficiency not too far off the theoretical limit of gas-burning drive trains.
This video cleared up my confusion and corrected my misconceptions, giving me enough knowledge to hold a one-hour discussion with an actual Toyota mechanic.
Also, YouTube helps. Search for “Power Split Device” or “e-CVT”.
Regarding other hybrid tech, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. I basically use ChatGPT with search enabled to have sources, and then ask how the system works. It’s never in the marketing materials, I guess most don’t care.
Respectfully, why are you asking for sources on an already high effort subjective post instead of verifying the info yourself? Wikipedia is a great place to start with car spec stuff.
Because when I ask questions like that in this forum, I get great answers (as you've seen). And, other visitors with the same interests can benefit from those answers.
I had an Accord hybrid and it did not have a transmission at all. There was a clutch and a single gear, which engaged over about 45 mph. Otherwise, the vehicle was propelled by an electric motor. The design, as far as I know, is significantly different than what Toyota uses. Having no transmission plus very little brake wear due to regen breaking felt like a good tradeoff.
Can't agree more, I can't understand why any car person would not be excited about THS II system anymore ever since its executive summary finally clicked, other than because that Prius as a product used to be so badly designed until Tesla started seriously threatening Toyota.
If only Toyota made bunch of toy models for THS and built couple 2-door hybrids so that more people would get it. I suppose it's a case of innovator's dilemma, but it's so unfortunate.
Naive question: aren't belts lower maintenance than chains, and don't let last longer? Why doesn't a engine with a chain drive require equal or more replacements?
Amusingly, my 1995 Saturn had a timing chain, and the chain skipped a tooth on its last day, at roughly 60k miles. Now, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the chain per se but it was the end of a sequence of failures involving the engine design.
On all of our other cars (Toyota), the belts needed to be serviced at X miles, but it was actually a cheap and quick procedure.
Ford and a few other makers have been using oil-immersed timing belts lately. They quite reliably fail after the car's warranty is up but well before the rest of the car is junk.
I agree, they are a disaster. However, I have heard people argue that Honda and other manufacturers have been using oil emersed belts for decades.
After 2017 Ford started using belts to drive the oil pump in F-150 engines (and possibly other Ecoboost engines). I have seen 100k teardowns of failed engines and the belt is not looking good at that point. If the belt breaks the engine is toast by the time the operator realizes what is going on.
Umm.. No and no. Belts need to be changed at some service interval, usually 100k SI units. If you don’t do it, a ripped belt wreaks havoc on the engine. Chains are typically installed for the life of the engine, and need to be changed only if it’s a problem.
A caveat though. I used to have a Škoda Fabia with a chain drive, and I did end up changing it, as it started making the tell-tale sound when stop-go.
In the context of hybrids though, I fully expect that chain to last the lifetime of the engine. The engine is under significantly less load than in a traditional ICE, so less stress on the chain. Also, for 100k mileage, the motor-hours that the engine has worked are less than in an ICE due to the engine regularly being off.
My Land Cruiser has a timing belt. I replace it every 90k miles per Toyota's specifications. My Tundra has the same engine, except that it has a timing chain. I've never bothered to replace the timing chain.
A timing chain is preferable as long as it isn't something like a Jaguar/Land Rover. The chain in those doesn't matter because they use plastic tensioners that eventually become brittle at crack/fail.
Chains can stretch, weigh more and make noise. This is why belts are used, in addition to being a space saver. The ultimate in reliability are gear drives. Those truly never wear out or need replaced (found in nearly any diesel engine).
Chains were very common in American cars and trucks for decades and they did need replaced after 150k-200k miles. I replaced the one in my 1993 Ford 5.0 at about 150k hard miles and it made a dramatic difference in performance (solved knocking/preignition on hills).
These days, there are some engines with (oil immersed) belts, but that's for fuel efficiency, not longevity. Chains last longer, typically, although I used to have a 97 Honda VFR that had neither. They started with chains in earlier models but had reliability issues so switched to straight cut gears. Man I miss the way those things sounded -- like a supercharger whine. Amazing
I was also worried about my wrong perception of hybrids being too complex. I recommend people to check on how e-CVT transmissions work, they are quite amazing and simple.
I also have now an hybrid Corolla (the station wagon version the US does not get. Because we all now Station wagons are the superior form of car.)
I used to drive a Prius until the hybrid battery system died, and the quote to replace it was a significant fraction of the value of the entire vehicle. I’ve driven ICE ever since.
My goal is usually to drive my vehicle all the way into the ground, and I guess that’s what happened to my Prius except it happened around if not before 150,000 miles.
I have a Prius that's at 100k right now. Repairing the battery is within my abilities but I'm concerned that if one or two cells fail, more will be right behind it.
Knew a dude that was asked several grands for replacing his hybrid Yaris batteries. He couldn't afford it, so he drove everywhere with the old battery. Because of the extra weight, he ended up consuming more fuel than the purely ICE Yaris.
That shouldn’t work. In a Toyota hybrid it’s the electric motor that effectively starts driving, and is also responsible for starting the ICE. So the car doesn’t really work with the drive battery not working.
There is only one factory, and it also makes the Highlander, Grand Highlander, and Lexus TX. The Sienna would need to become a lot more profitable for Toyota to reduce production of the other 3 to make room for more Siennas.
They could raise the price if they wanted it to be more profitable! Dealers already exploit the long wait list to do so in a way that doesn’t pass through to Toyota.
I’m in a large metro area; when I go to the Toyota website and look at inventory within 20 miles, I see 1 Sienna that is not in transit and not sale pending. That’s across 9 dealerships! By contrast, for the new Land Cruiser I am seeing 31 vehicles that are not in transit and not sale pending. On dealer lots. Most of them have $3k+ discounts listed! 12 Corolla hybrids; 24 Camrys. 87 Tacomas!!!
I have no idea what Toyota’s strategy with the Sienna is.
I would not call a CVT "not a gearbox". Were Audis equipped with their multitronic option (not in any way related to hybrid or BEV) "cars without a gearbox"?
A traditional CVT is a different beast. Prius is more accurately described as having a power-split gearbox that can dynamically split the power between the gasoline engine and the electric motor.
Yeah, I’d say “not a gearbox”. A gearbox to me is something where there are actual gears engaging and disengaging leading to wear and tear. Doesn’t matter what kind of fancy electronics are then used to hide the mechanical operation from me.
A mechanical CVT with belts and pulleys with changing diameters is even worse.
What the hybrids (e-CVT ones) have though is basically a planetary gear set, where the gears are put together at the factory, and stay there for the life of the car.
To me that’s not a gearbox. At least not in the traditional sense. Transmission sure.
To me the key element is that it can run different transmission ratios: wether that's in discrete steps or a continuous ramp, that's an implementation detail. BEV (most of them) don't have that, the Prius has. When I read GP post my (surprised) impression from the "no gearbox" claim was that the Prius started as a serial hybrid. (it did not)
So the relationship between engine RPM and wheel RPM is always fixed, only torque split is varied, right? I think that's around where some confusions are coming from.
The new Prius is really good-looking (to my eye at least), especially in person: I don't think the photos (I've seen) do it justice. Fun comparisons to the car Burt Reynolds drove in Smokey and the Bandit: Compared to the 1977 Pontiac Trans Am:
- The Prius is as fast 0-60 (~7 seconds)
- The Prius has nearly the same top speed (~115 mph)
- The Prius is 4x(!) as fuel-efficient (57mpg vs. 12-16mpg)
- The Prius has all the modern stuff: air conditioning, antilock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, information display screen, backup camera, proximity alerts, etc. etc.
- Adjusted for inflation, the Prius costs almost exactly the same
The new Prius looks good, but I love my old Prius’s spacious hatchback. With the backseat down we can stick 3 giant dogs back there. I don’t know if there’s a hybrid with similar internal space.
I wanted to like the 2024+ Prius, I really did. I was in the market for a new car anyway, so I went and test drove one (not that I could have got one right away, at the time). Takeaways...
- it drives really nice with plenty of power
- the "gearshift" (not that it is one, but that part of the UI) is nonintuitive
- the interior looks smaller than it is, due to massive A-pillars and little to no rearward visibility
- it looks much better than past Priuses, but the rear door handles single-handedly put back the "dork factor"
None of that would have mattered that much, but the dealbreaker: Trunk space. I mean, space to load stuff when there are already 4 people in the car so you can't just fold down the back seat. That trunk floor is high. Folded it up and what's underneath? A styrofoam spacer matrix! WTF? Why not a spare tire instead (you don't get one)? I can imagine an ugly hack, tearing all that out, just to get a bit more trunk space but really? My only guess is that the Prius Prime's extra battery goes here, and they don't want to have it have less trunk space than the regular Prius.
We are (by choice) a one-car family and we have two kids. When we travel we need a certain amount of trunk space, and the Prius doesn't have it. Aside from that, the Prime would have been lovely - enough battery to do your around-town driving entirely electrically! I never even thought of the "no heat" angle.
> None of that would have mattered that much, but the dealbreaker: Trunk space.
I hear you. I got a 2022 Prius Prime and I was disappointed with the smaller trunk space compared with the 2010(ish) Prius I had before, but I still went with it. However, my understanding is that the newer models somehow have even smaller trunk space space. At least that space under the trunk floor is filled with batteries in my case.
While I'm happy enough with my purchase, I suspect I won't be getting a Prius in the future. If I want a PHEV, I might look at the Rav4 Prime, but I think I'm more likely to look for a full EV when the time comes.
Oh wow, the 2024 Prius Prime has a full 3 seats in back. When we were Prius shopping in 2018, we were disappointed to learn that getting plug-in capability cost an extra $10K and removed the rear center seat. We ultimately just bought a "regular" Prius. I'm sure we _would have_ figured it how to install a car seat in such a tight space, but I don't regret missing that frustration.
Will people always think vroom vroom sounds cool? As far as I'm concerned, we can't get rid of it soon enough. When I rent an ICE car, I'm always annoyed by the engine revving sounds.
I mean, I’m not really a fan of the spaceship whine that the newest Honda CR-V models put out in electric mode. It’s going to be hard to please everybody on this planet.
- Terrible in snow and ice
- No way to defrost your windshield, unless you're already driving
- Poor rear window visibility
If not for those things it would be great, but unfortunately they've made zero progress on fixing any of the core issues for the last 25 years. The new models definitely do look cooler, and I appreciate that they accelerate faster, but I personally care much more about the stuff that could potentially kill me when I'm driving.
> - No way to defrost your windshield, unless you're already driving
I have a 2022 Prius Prime, and I am moderately sure with the car on and in park I can press the front window defrost button, and the ICE will turn on and start blowing hot air on the front window.
Also, while parked and plugged in at home, I can use the remote A/C button to start heating the cabin and front windshield while clearing off snow and clearing the driveway, and will be powered from my house. I'm not sure if this also works without being plugged in.
Can confirm, I have a 2017 Prius Prime, I keep it set to prefer all-EV driving, but I just got in and turned on the defroster to melt some frost off the windshield, it switches on the ICE engine. My only complaint is that it is not terribly smart about turning it back off during the same session of driving, if I turn off the defrost. I think in theory the heat pump would be able to provide the heat to do the job, but it'd use the charge in the traction battery up quickly...
It has been my experience that if the ICE engine in the Prius Prime switches on for the first time for any reason, it prefers to remain on for several minutes at a minimum, no matter what. I have a theory for why this happens, but it is purely speculation on my part.
I don’t know what gave you that idea, unless this is a complaint about FWD vs AWD. They do fine around here in snow and ice.
Snow and ice performance is primarily (by a wide margin) about the tires. Next is the diffs and/or traction control for keeping both wheels moving when one starts slipping.
A Prius on snow tires does about as well as any other common FWD car.
Ours with snow tires does great. Most people probably don't have snow tires though, and they may have tires that perform worse-than-normal like LRR tires or full summer tires.
Snow tires are great on all FWD and are probably way cheaper than buying a new AWD car.
I expect they are referring to the traction control system. On ice, it's really hard to get started moving when it's constantly kicking in. If you're trying to get across one or more lanes of traffic to turn left (driving on right), then you can be in danger of getting hit unless you leave a lot more time to get across.
I own a Prius and live in Vermont. It does just fine with snow and ice. As others have pointed out, proper snow tires make a huge difference, way more than any car tech. I also think the newer models have AWD as an option.
To defrost, you can just turn the car on, switch out of EV mode, and turn on the defroster. It works like every other car.
The rear window visibility is not the best. I do agree there.
New Englander here. I've owned two Priuses (2004 and 2010) and both have been surprisingly able to handle winter weather quite well. Not as good as my Outback, but in light to medium conditions and driven by an experienced winter driver they performed admirably.
The older one made it through a major blizzard in rural road and interstate driving across 4 states, albeit at a reduced rate of speed (45 mph, which drove up the MPG to 52, a record for that car).
We still drive the 2010 model. I'm hoping that Subaru will get its act together on hybrid by the time we have to retire the Prius, but I would definitely get another Toyoya hybrid.
I own a 2024 Toyota Corolla Hybrid (similar drive train to Prius) and it defrost the window way faster than my previous Volkswagen Passat. Ice and snow handling has been pretty similar here in North Europe compared to my previous car, studded winter tires are the key. Visibility is also quite comprareble.
My experience with a prius in the north east was that it wasn't particularly bad in ice and snow and the few times I got caught in snowstorms it handled about as well as any front wheel drive car. I certainly wouldn't go out into a snowstorm with it if I had the choice, but thats true of almost any non-awd drive. The windshield defrosting situation was also a non issue for me.
Man I miss my prius, I sold it when gas was under $2...
Agreed. I still have a 2008, and it has gotten me through a couple nor'easters. Even with the original Goodyear Integrity tires. One of them was on the rolling hills of I-90 and I-84 through western Massachusetts and Connecticut. On every uphill portion I'd pass people who had gotten stuck, until I finally reached a place to stop for the night and wait out the storm. The front wheel drive seems to make it better than a lot of other cars out there. Put some CrossClimate2 tires on it, and it would be even better.
Cabin heating is done by heat pump but the gas engine kicks on for the front defrost. I don't know what parent is referring to wrt not being able to run defroster.
The Trans Am also had simple analogue controls - including for the heat & AC - while the new Prius has evidently succumbed to the overcomplicated "let's take away buttons" phenomenon.
Also, you're not getting a bride to leave her husband at the altar if you pull up alongside in a Prius. Just sayin'.
Amen to that though! I agree that the new gen Prius looks really sleek! I tried EVs but the range and lack of after-market parts was really limiting, so I've been fairly happy with the Prius Prime.
I love my Prius. What amazes me about the car is how “idiot-proof” or “smart” it is. I try my best to hypermile and squeeze out every last MPG, while my wife doesn’t make any effort to baby it—and yet, we both consistently get about 57 MPG combined. The car adapts to how you drive it, which is really impressive.
I think Toyota deserves as much credit as Apple for its “it just works” ethos. The way they design the technology to be seamless and work so well behind the scenes is remarkable. Additionally, many Toyota mechanics consider the Prius to be the most reliable car Toyota makes. This often surprises people because of the perceived complexity of hybrids, but in reality, they are elegantly engineered and surprisingly simple.
I hypermile my gas SUV cuz I feel guilty about the inefficiency, but we just got an EV and Im driving like a maniac breaking it in for fun and cuz no more guilt.
I would go even further and say comparing Apple to Toyota is a high praise for Apple. Toyota, one of the world's largest manufacturers of any product, created its own management and engineering style (e.g. TPS) that continue to edify engineers to this day. Toyota survived and thrived this long in a highly competitive field, especially on a global stage -- a rare instance for a Japanese company. Steve Jobs in his peak had great admiration for Japanese manufacturers like Toyota and wanted to emulate them.
One of the reasons that Toyota was still pushing out cars during covid while nearly everyone else had a shortage was their mastery of the supply chain. They make sure that their critical suppliers are as redundant as possible and well taken care of. Not only did Toyota maintain a stockpile of critical parts, the distributors gave them preference because they paid on time.
I recently bought the 2012 Prius and at least in Europe it has features that not many 2024 cars have here. HUD, backup camera, regen breaking, automatic transmission, multiple digital displays, Bluetooth, stop-start at lights, EV drive mode on the tiny battery for a few minutes..
I know all cars can’t be perfect but as a 2010 Prius owner (I probably shouldn’t complain given it’s 15 years old) it has had several well documented issues that never prompted a recall.
I was hit with a bad oil gasket that causes the engine to burn oil. It’s so much work to replace their solution is to replace the entire engine. My solution is to keep putting oil in it. I was told by the dealer this is common over 70k miles.
The steering controls (heat, volume, cruise) stopped working pretty early on. It was well over $1k to fix, mostly labor. Apparently the connection they use is prone to failure.
Leaves me wondering if my next car will be a Toyota. Maybe if they adopted Apple CarPlay.
That being said, batteries are still good and I’ve been pretty impressed how low the maintenance has been.
Another 2010 owner here. I'm at 280,000km, and other than burning some oil everything still works fine. Usually by this age cars here are pretty rusty, but so far my Prius has held up well. There's a few spots of surface rust in places, but nothing serious.
We had to replace the inverter a few years ago (apparently there was a software update to prevent this failure, but we didn't have it), but even when that broke the car was still driveable, just the ICE engine was running all the time.
The biggest issue I've had is with brakes. Three times now the rear pads have got rusty and I've had to replace both the pads and rotors. My theory is that as they are hardly used, they don't get hot enough to dry out any moisture. Last year I rebuild the rear calipers, so let's see if that fairs any better.
FWIW they have adopted carplay. I have a 2019 prius prime, which was I think the last year before they swapped over. My neighbor has a 2024 model, and it has resolved my two main complaints about my car, in that it has carplay and they have three seats in the back now instead of two.
Absolutely love my 2014 PHEV Prius, will do about 7 miles on battery which will get me to the shops and back. Never had a problem with it, about to hit 200k miles and still pretty much perfect
Honestly, I think it’s actually the second generation Prius that transformed the auto industry. The first generation was quirky, had poor crash test ratings, and was full of compromises.
The second generation showed that they could produce a sedan with high reliability, a decent sized passenger cabin, high crash test ratings, and very little compromises over a regular car except speed and sell it at a massive scale with incredible gas mileage, lower maintenance costs and great reliability.
I think it also showed that you could build a smaller car, throw in all the technology features and young people would buy it where previously, manufacturers would only put the latest and greatest features on their largest vehicles. For example, if you wanted the latest and greatest features from Mercedes, you would have to buy the S class, so even if you wanted a smaller more efficient car, if you were an early adopter, you had to buy the largest model. I think the Prius was a point where people realized that the youngest people wanted these tech features but they didn’t want a giant car.
I'm almost 40 and never had a car in my life. But recently I'm thinking about buying one and probably it will be a Toyota hybrid (Lexus if I get a windfall lol)
I'm kinda OK with them just dominating hybrids; especially plugins.
I own a 2024 Prius Prime (PHEV) and the setup works great. No range anxiety, no special charging infra (I just plug in on a normal 120v overnight). I got the car in Feb 24 and maybe pumped gas a total of 8 times? If I didn't make two longer trips, it would have been 6.
But also, the power output is pretty great and an upgrade over the hybrid only model.
It feels like the sweet spot for most Americans and doesn't require any real lifestyle change.
Big shame is that dealers aren't necessarily charging them on the lot. So if you test drive one, you might only feel the hybrid and not the EV mode.
A regular EV also requires no special infrastructure. Just your regular house electrical system (e.g. 120v wall outlet in the US). Only on long trips do you need fast chargers or does range anxiety kick in. If you do a lot of long drives I can see that being a problem. But if not I'd be willing to bet you'd lose less time charging than taking your vehicle to the mechanic for maintenance and repairs. Because the EV, when built well, requires a frighteningly low amount of maintenance.
Based on the limited info you've shared, you don't seem to drive enough to be at a deficit. Maybe it will take the night to charge the 10-20% you've used during the day, but you have a big buffer.
You can't pick a car with a small battery though as that will cause problems on long trips. Something around 80 kWh should be enough for most people.
Something that makes it easier to own EVs here in London (UK) are these chargers on lampposts, there are probably thousands of them at this point: https://i.imgur.com/1YdeVwf.png
They're slow (3-7kW), can't be installed everywhere, there are not enough if everyone wants to charge at the same time, and some areas still don't have them, but plug it in when you arrive and you should be fine to go in the morning. It's a good idea and more places should adopt it.
Not just in cities. In the U.S. at least, a lot of people live in suburban townhouse complexes that have shared parking lots. It's going to take a lot of investment to make charging easy for everyone.
That wouldn’t be a problem for the op with the phev because they are already charging at home and only driving less than 30 miles each day except 8 times in the past year. I still don’t get why phevs are a thing.
You’ll typically add 50 miles of range overnight, which is more than the average person drives in a day. That’s not minimal. Unpredictability is buffered by the large battery. You can drive 200 miles one day then slowly fill it back up. Fast chargers can be a backup for the occasional times it’s not enough.
Why would there be an issue with selling it used when doing this?
Resale values are lower in US because they factor in the 7.5k USD tax credit and the state tax credit mostly, there is plenty of demand for used teslas for example.
Similar in other countries but sometimes not as direct.
Various regulations set targets which gives manufacturers incentives to hit sales targets. This leads to discounts or great lease deals just before certain dates if targets aren't met through standard prices.
I think it was true, at least in the US, back then the Leaf was the most common EV. Their battery longevity was trash, they had poor range to start with, and tax credits pushed down the effective new price a lot.
The resale values are only low compared to the inflated COVID prices. A 3 year old Tesla 3 goes for about $25k. Which is painful if you paid $70k for the 3. However, the buyer is comparing to a new 3 which you can get for $35k after tax credit.
The opposite will occur when Trump cancels the credit.
Not really. Living in Switzerland, colleague has Model S, and over whole night plugged in his house he can charge only around 9km/h. That basically covers his commute but he can't build up charge for the weekend if he started week empty. Not even going into the fact that most folks here live in apartments and not standalone houses, and charging situation there is usually terrible and overhead of owning electric car is significant.
That sucks tremendously (on top of other tesla-related suck like extremely expensive OEM replacement parts that nobody else can service), and considering we talk about Switzerland here (and expensive well developed part of it), other countries are not that better off if at all.
As a backup, non-critical second car, why not if you feel like an early adopter and paying >40k for a function a used 5k car can perform even better. Main family car? No thank you, maybe for half the cost but probably even that's too much in this decade.
Is it that expensive to get an electric car charger installed?
I just got two installed for $800, and the charger itself is $420 each. Even if a circuit panel had to be upgraded and some wire needed to be run, surely it is only a couple thousand extra at most.
Seems like you might have a case of SV myopia. The idea that $1640 plus “a few thousand extra” to be able to drive a very expensive vehicle would be not “that expensive” is pretty out of touch.
Electric vehicles are not “very” expensive, even in Europe, and it’s a capital expense. That charger is going to be useful for decades to come.
And if electric vehicles pencil out in the US to equal cost of gas cars including oil changes and all that, then surely they do in Europe with their higher gas costs.
Can you put numbers to not very expensive? Looking at vw for their ev equivalents, for me personally, it qualifies as very expensive (without subsidies)
I tried to find new gas vs electric car sale prices in a couple European countries, but I couldn’t easily find a reputable source.
With how active European governments are on legislation to curb carbon emissions, I assumed the proposition of a new electric vehicle to a new gas vehicle would be at least as good as the US (over the lifetime of the car, higher initial cost for EV, but lower maintenance costs).
Of course, this only applies to people with a home with a space to park and charge their car, and whose everyday destinations are mostly within an hour.
Edit: looks like small diesel cars are still available in Europe, so taking those as the base option, I can see how an EV would be expensive. This option doesn’t exist in the US, though.
Not OP but my power company gave me $1500, I only had to pay like $300 in total. There's currently (or, was, as may be the case in a few days) a ton of credits/assistance.
A new 200A electrical panel costs $5000-6000 to be installed with a permit in SV. If you want to run 50A wire for an L2 charger that might be $1000-2000 more. Getting close to $10000, so I'd say it is fairly expensive.
If the numbers I find online for tesla power usage is correct, that would indicate that she charges with around 1.8 kW. But most homes should have little problem supplying the double (16 ampere with 230v = 3.680kW). But maybe she is stuck with 10 ampere?
But even with 9km/h I am surprised that's not enough, does she really drive more than 108km a day?
(this is not to take away from her experience, I am just surprised)
The downside of plugins is that it has both systems (more things that can go wrong, added cost, weight) and they're not amazing at being an ICE car (small fuel tank) or electric car (small battery).
In your case it seems that a pure EV would be fine? Maybe not one with a small battery, but 300-400 miles of range isn't that uncommon these days.
In any case, the important thing is that it works well for you.
It's also not great that people sometimes buy them because of breaks on price and then keep them where they can't plug them in, which is the worst of both worlds. But a properly used plug-in hybrid can be a good thing for some yeah
Re: being a gas-powered car: they seem fine in terms of tank size, 11 litres for a prius prime vs 13 litres for a gas corolla from the 2010s. You get better fuel efficiency, too, so your effective range is likely at least as good as a regular gasoline car.
The added complexity / part count is definitely a downside, though.
Regarding the complexity, I believe Toyota has been ahead of the (hybrid) competition for many years, but a PHEV still has two different systems. Everything that can go bad on a pure EV (battery, electric motors, charging system) is there and even if the ICE part is simpler, it's still something that can break.
With this said, other reports of batteries going bad on old Prius, I haven't read much about them being unreliable, so it should be fine while the car is fairly new.
I was planning on buying the highest trim '24 Prius prime but availability and dealership markup made it unreasonable even in a large city. The lower trims didn't seem worth it. Instead I bought a used '23 model 3 long range with every upgrade (accel & fsd) and still saved money. Car had a few thousand miles.
I'm super happy I didn't get the Prius. Spec wise the Tesla is superior. Driving our other ice car is less enjoyable for me now. I use 120v but I work from home so it works. I still like the Prius/RAV4 prime but at its price point and limited availability I just don't see the value over Tesla.
How well do Prius Primes (or other PHEVs) handle long periods where one's daily mileage is well under the EV mode range and one is able to charge at home every night? I think it has been 5+ years since I've driven more than 25 miles in a day and even longer since I was away from home overnight.
I've read ICEs can have problems if you go too long without running them. Will the Prime's software automatically run the ICE on occasion to keep it in good shape?
My friend's Jeep will give them a notice that it needs to switch to gas when it hasn't been used for a while, so it seems like a pretty common thing across manufacturers.
Also, have they sorted out the 12V battery management for this low use scenario?
Our family has an older Hybrid Camry from around 2010 and it will destroy 12V batteries with too much local driving and parking. A typical regular ICE does better in the same conditions.
From the behavior, I assume it's because they only charged the 12V via a weak alternator when the ICE runs, rather than also keeping it charged via DC-DC conversion from the larger electric traction power system.
I just returned from a 21 day trip and my 12v was dead because I left the Prius off the charger. It's fine as long as it's on the charger (my guess is it trickle charges it), but if you leave it off the charger, the traction battery doesn't maintain the 12v.
That's too bad. It shouldn't necessarily even need to charge the battery when parked, so much as have smarter battery management logic to get the car into lower power consumption states when parked and to more aggressively maintain the 12V charge when operating.
We resorted to installing a big master cutoff switch on the negative battery terminal in the trunk of the Camry. So if there is no plan to use the car again in the next few days, we electrically isolate the battery.
Then, we have to go through a longer "boot up" process to reactivate the car for its next use. Use the mechanical key to open the trunk, restore power, then enter the cabin and go through multiple cycles with the START button to let all the computers power back up...
The engine still kicks on once in a while. Notably now in winter, it kicks on if I have multiple seat heaters and the steering wheel heater on. But my use case also has two days where it's over the battery range so I know it'll kick on.
You can manually control it if you want and I do it once in a while when I need more acceleration since max power is delivered with both drivetrains.
We had this situation when we lived in a big city, before we moved somewhere that we drive longer distances regularly. We’d often go over a year without filling up. The engine runs occasionally to keep the gas from going stale, and in the winter the engine will kick on for the defroster. We never had any issues with it, and still have the car now.
The Sienna is a great hybrid if you are wanting something larger for families or hauling stuff. Tons of space, really nice cabin, and far more practical for 90% of uses than a huge pickup or any of the large SUVs. I can haul groceries and my large dog in the back cargo area w/ the 3rd row down, or put the row up for seating seven.
Oh, and mileage is 30-34 mpg, at least when its not the middle of midwest winter.
The Alphard and Vellfires are the equivalent of an Escalade in Japan and ASEAN. I don't think that PMF would translate in the US. Sucks becuase the seats are really comfy.
Ironically, if you're looking forward to an Electric SUV, you're more likely to find that in India where macho SUV culture is massive.
I feel the same way as the parent comment. They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. Their bets on hydrogen fuel cells haven't yielded anything, and now they're a decade behind on developing EV experience and expertise.
I've owned three Toyotas because they've always seemed to be the lowest total-cost-of-ownership option, being especially good in the compact and midsize segments. American manufacturers are trying as hard as possible to abandon those segments. So what will we be left with? I don't want a giant, luxury sports car that costs $50k+.
No, I think we're seeing a correction in the long term trend. It's possible that EV's will take over the car market, but if they do it will be because that's what consumers prefer, not because of government mandates.
Kinda doubt it. They also suffer from large company inertia where their hybrid powertrains gave them a market leadership, similar to German cars and diesel engines, making difficult to pivot to a market where there's much stronger competition and they don't have the crown anymore.
My German EV was introduced a decade ago, and it’s still great!
I think a better comparison is to the Italians.
Stellantis bought up a bunch of iconic brands when they got Chrysler and then integrated a bunch of new technology from Fiat. Since then, they’ve focused on creature comforts and margin expansion, but neglected everything else.
They recently realized their sales projections are headed for a cliff and unceremoniously fired their CEO.
Yeah its a mixed bag in germany in my eyes.
All of the big brands have a real electric platform minus BMW. 800V isnt pioneered with them either.
VDA is pressuring for HVO100 bs. Mercedes just pulled back on the electric only strategy. I guess they figured that most of the added value is with the batteries and being deeply integrated there and thats not really their cup of tea, so far at least.
There where Taycans for 30k$ which was a real great deal if your the second buyer and not the first.
On the other hand the id family looks ok, facelift good. The a6 is pricey at 100k but is the first really capable german highway ev, not as premature as the eqs…
The technology (e.g. heat pump, carbon fiber/aluminum body), user interface and fuel economy (not range) of my old i3 are all competitive with the 2022-2024 EVs I’ve driven.
Unless they somehow regressed 10 years, the only obvious problem with the new BMW EVs is that none offer a third row.
I dislike the cardan tunnel of the shared ICE/BEV platform if you look at eg the i4. It exacerbates the problem of all (aerodinammically efficient) BEVs with a low roof line: blood flow problems due to hip impingement is bound to happen due to the "head between knees" sitting position in the back.
My main gripe is no 800V, it would be a sane travel car with that.
No frunk to store the possibly wet and dirty ac cable. Yes they exist on the aftermarket but the car is a premium product, one shouldn't have to deal with this.
My personal EV tech goal/dream is 400km range in between 20-80% SOC, chargeable in <20 minutes. Ideally as a worst case ie cold outside -5C, 140kmh avg. And the whole package affordable: <50k new, ideally even <30k. Let's hope we'll see this kind of volume model sooner rather than later. My hope is that it could significantly improve the QOL for many people in cities worldwide and help further build out renewables by offering grid stabilization while not in use (this dream unfortunately requires ~100kwh, which will result in a >2t vehicle so tire rub will probably increase slightly, though i think its a worthwile trade off). So i guess my last gripe is price, yes its a premium product but the production complexity and price should go down vs BEVs...
The argument still works for another 10 year cycle. Hybrids are not the enemy. Pure ICEs are.
Hybrids (well phevs) can deliver huge % of electrification and efficiency while transitioning older, dumber, and more conservative drivers to EVs, home charging, without having to plan
As to the article, I don't think they were influential enough. This obviously wouldn't have happened with the Bush administration, but maybe in some parallel world where Gore when the election, we might have gotten a mandate that all consumer vehicles needed to be hybrids or phevs within 10 years.
The amount of gas that would have saved, The amount of development it would had on batteries and electric drivetrains, would have further paved the way for decarbonization.
Why semis did not become hybrids is beyond me. The electric drivetrain provides so much more torque and smooth acceleration, while providing obviously regenerative braking.
It's difficult to overstate how ground breaking Prius was when it came out; arguably more surprising than Tesla's success and paradigm shift. Before Prius came out, people questioned whether it was even physically possible to have a any working hybrid system in a commercial car, let alone a non-serial hybrid system. At least Tesla had seen working prior art in commercial EVs (albeit far less famed than Tesla).
Toyota was mocked in recent years for not going head-first into EVs. As the EVs are becoming less popular and the geopolitics of battery and raw materials escalates, Toyota is having the last laugh.
Plug in hybrids really remain the sweet spot for usability.
If you can cover the 50 mile typical commute round trip range on grid electric and then switch to the ICE for longer trips, that's a lot more practical. It's like having the best of both worlds.
Yes, you sacrifice in weight and complexity, but Toyota has absolutely mastered this design and their reliability is great.
I needed a new car in 2015. A difficult decision for me, since basically every manufacturer sells cars that have four wheels and an engine, and I wasn't sure what I wanted / needed beyond that.
A friend had bought a used Prius and loved it, so I did some research and decided it would be a good choice. Thus I ended up with a car that has four wheels and two engines.
(It only has around 48K miles, have replaced brakes once and regular battery twice, otherwise no problems. And routinely get at least 40mpg.)
My aunt bought one of the first ones. It was the first time I experienced a car driving fully silent, creeping up the driveway. Was pretty surreal at the time.
I hated the original Prius. It had no right to call itself a "hybrid". It had one source of power: gasoline. This seriously confused the market and the press when the Volt -- a true Hybrid with electric and gas -- came out. I wish regulators defined the word "Hybrid" and limitied its use in marketing.
Family Guy got the meaning of "Prius--and the type of self-righteous person who drove it--exactly right.
I got my a prius in jan 2001. It was $18K and got 45-ish mpg despite that I didn't do anything to try to maximize my mileage. My previous car was a manual Sentra SE-R two door. Despite being a smaller car, it got about 24 mpg and was a similar price (time adjusted). But according to you, those things were not why I bought it, it was because I was self righteous.
Let's say you are right: nobody really cares about the Prius price or technical specs and bought it to be seen. Now imagine someone buying something other than a Prius, say a BMW, or a Lexus, or even a lower end car like a Corolla who might dither over the color or trim package. How much ire do you have for those people being vain in caring what impression their car makes?
If you don't don't care about the non-prius scenario, it means you don't really care about the vanity aspect of car purchasing decision. Inspect what is really driving your resentment.
The other source of energy is kinetic energy. It converts the potential energy of gravity mgh, into electrical energy, back into kinetic energy, 1/2*mv^2.
You only put one energy in, the other source is gravity and recycled kinetic.
Besides hybrid means two motors gas and electric. Not two inputs.
Negative ghostwriter, gasoline may be the only input, but stored inertia is energy too, and it's a hybrid because it has two kinds of motors that work in tandem to increase efficiency, who said hybrid meant two types of fuel?
So does everything. Everything runs off of entropic decay of the universe.
Almost all the power we use is solar (stored energy from the sun). Nuclear is an exception, in that the energy didn't come from Sol, but some other star that went Nova in the ancient past.
Anyway, a Prius was a "hybrid" in the same sense as previous gas-electric cars and is the same nomenclature used for diesel trains with electric drive.
The Toyota Camry Hybrid transfored the way I automobile.
A brother recently transferred title of "most dangerous driver in the family" from me to somebody else... so I've got that going for me (plus: have never been pulled over in my re-vamped hybrid lifestyle).
I sometimes chuckle that most of the cool Lexuses are now Priuses under the hood!
But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids are one of those things that I can say I’ve completely changed my mind about. I used to dislike the idea of hybrids, because I assumed that the overall system complexity must be higher than either an ICE, or an EV. And I’m a sucker for simple systems, so I thought it’s either EV, or nothing.
Then I looked into how hybrids work. Specifically Toyota hybrids. And came away totally amazed. It’s an amazing system, and much simpler than a traditional ICE car. It doesn’t really have a gearbox, or a clutch, or a starter. The engine is a normal atmospheric engine, so no turbines, overcompression, and the issues that come with it. Furthermore, the engine is typically configured to use the Atkinson cycle, which puts less stress on it. And, the engine has a chain drive, so no belts to change, and by design gets stressed a lot less than in a traditional ICE, because the stop-start load is carried by the electric motor. Also, it can’t really have trouble starting in cold weather, much like an EV. All of that boils down to crazy reliability.
I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Other companies have hybrids that are liable to my original concerns about massively increased complexity. As an example, VW hybrids have an electric motor within their DSG gearbox. So you have all the complexity of their modern ICEs (turbines, DSG, whatnot) plus additional hybrid related complexity.
The Prius system is an excellent design, but as someone that loves driving, it just feels and drives awful- little tactile or audible feedback on any of the controls, and really unresponsive to inputs- arguably dangerously so. My regular daily driver is an old Porsche Boxster, and by comparison the Prius feels like I’m driving a dishwasher or playing a cheap arcade game- it will get you there reliably but it’s just not any fun. Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving. My sister has an Audi A3 e-tron hybrid (basically an upscale VW Golf) that is extremely fun to drive, but also a very complex drivetrain and engine.
I think a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically- like the BMW i3 REX is the way to go. It’s even simpler and lighter than the Prius system, allowing for a much larger battery and more powerful electric motor.
> Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving.
Or, you could reengineer your too-short life so you waste less time driving.
It’s fine if you like driving and want to have a nice car - connoisseurs abound in all fields. But for 99% of people it’s not an issue worth optimizing for.
That’s actually part of it for me- I often work from home and have very little required driving- so I do mostly see driving as a recreational activity. If I’m going to visit a remote beach or mountain lake for fun on the weekend, I want the drive down a long winding road to be fun also.
> But for 99% of people it’s not an issue worth optimizing for.
Bold claim. Sitting in traffic in manual or auto ICE is a nightmare compared to a Tesla.
It's fine to demand more from a car, but to most of us it has to move us from point a to b.
I honestly never quite understood this perspective or why it's so popular... in general I try to always find ways to do normal life things a little weird, or make it a little more challenging, fun, and memorable- and try to break up the routine drudgery. Even just getting groceries can be a fun adventure with my kid if we put the top down on the Porsche, play some music we love, and maybe go to a weird store that targets a different culture, or has weird surplus/unsold items.
Doing things 'weird' usually makes them cheaper and less crowded/faster as well- as a result of less demand.
A significant chunk of the crowd here is very anti-car (to varying degrees), so I wouldn’t expect much sympathy if you’re the type of person that enjoys driving. I’d cut your losses in trying to argue your point…and go enjoy driving your car!
As somewhat of an old timer (turning 43), I remember the techie population seemed to overlap a lot with the car enthusiast population a long time ago. Nearly everyone at my first job (small startup) was a car nerd. A lot of engineering and tech goes into cars after all.
Somewhere along the way a lot of techies became very anti-car.
Cars have a lot of unpriced externalities. I see them as a necessary evil. I'd rather future generations had less pollution and more natural resources to enjoy.
There are plenty of other things to tinker with.
I feel the same as you about the awful externalities, but doing it anyway and refusing to enjoy it as 'penance' just isn't how I would want to deal with that. I really love driving, love the freedom of exploring things in cars, and love working on and fixing them. Instead, I work on sustainable biofuel tech- and even as a hobby use and test it out in my own vehicles.
Props to you for exploring some ways of mitigating the damage of your hobbies. I prefer EVs despite their increased road wear (at least compared to vehicles that haven't been super sized).
Having driven a lot in my youth, it's just not something I enjoy regardless. I'd rather spend the time and resources on other things. Even taking a longer bike ride to the store is preferred because it's exercise, almost everyone on the trail nods or waves back, and I know my choice is better for everyone in the community.
I also love cycling and engineless sailing- and see cycling as more practical transport around town, and cars for long distance recreational trips. In my lifetime I have put far more miles on bicycles than cars, as I’ve almost always had a daily bicycle commute to work. Sadly I no longer have a situation where bicycle commuting is possible, and miss it.
Yeah, I am about your age, and it is taboo in my work and social circle to even drive a sports car- I can tell most people I know see it as ostentatious, which I am annoyed by since I bought it for less than 1/10th the price of what most of them drive, and I find it fun, I don't care to impress anyone.
What if you have another kid and a wife?
At a certain level of utility/space, cars just stop being that fun. Well, until you get to the vans, those are fun in their own weird way.
I do have a wife, not planning on more kids. I'm a bit of a car nerd and have a bunch of older cars I maintain myself- including several that fit the whole family- all of them together costing less than a newer economy car. There are plenty of large cars that are still fun to drive. A Porsche Cayenne/VW Touareg/Audi Q7 can tow as much as a full sized truck, seat 5 in comfort, offroad as well as almost anything, and post sports car worthy track lap times- and you can get a nice one for 5-10 grand on Craigslist nowadays.
There are some fun weird vans. I've always loved the Toyota HiAce, Mitsubishi Delica, and other strange Japanese minvans with weird features like built in karaoke machines, beverage coolers, tiny diesel engines, and real truck 4x4 systems. Also love the old VW vanagons.
They used to run (tongue in cheek) ads for the Boxster with the slogan "The more kids you have, the more practical it becomes" and that it fits "Two child seats. Up front." There's some truth to that- if you have a large family you will likely have multiple cars, it can still make sense for one of them to just take two people for 1 on 1 activities.
I tow with my mk4 tdi all the time, it’s incredibly handy. A lot of towing is bulky stuff that’s not necessarily heavy. There’s still a time and place for a truck, or a full-size truck, but not for everyone.
Haha... weirdly, I've also done a ton of towing with MKIV ALH TDIs. They're absolutely excellent vehicles for towing, and hardly use any fuel while doing so. Sometimes it gets a lot of unwanted attention - especially at a boat ramp, because Americans don't expect cars to be able to tow like that.
When I was in Ireland for work, I saw that a huge fraction of the farmers use MKIV TDIs for their farm work vehicles- they're all over the place pulling huge trailers full of livestock and hay, and still using half the fuel of most cars that are unloaded.
I'll take the bait, what part of what you wrote makes it funnier in a Boxster than a Prius?
Funnier? I assume you mean fun?
I assure you there is no bait- it’s an example of things that would make an everyday chore fun to me, and needs no justification. I would suggest you do what would make it fun to you.
Yeah, as I'm boggled down in traffic on 30/50 kmh roads and sitting idle every two meters in Italy I would see no difference.
So I'd rather get the prius-like ergonomics and comfort.
I’m an outlier here but I especially prefer to drive a manual transmission sports car with good handling and lots of driver/road feedback in heavy traffic- as it’s a lot more engaging and easier to stay focused and not bored. I’ve heard the same from others with ADHD. The visibility and maneuverability is also helpful for avoiding potholes and other drivers mistakes. I’d still have a ton of fun driving even a Prius on a real track- but if driving through a crowded city I especially want a convertible sports car.
Not the OP. At the end of the day it’s just taste, right?
I use Linux, EMacs with vim keybindings and a dark color palette. Coding this way makes me feel good, I like the aesthetics. If they tried to force me to use Windows, and an IDE with a light color palette, I’d seriously consider quitting. It’s totally irrational, but it is what it is :D
Definitely a matter of taste- your dev environment sounds downright VILE to me ;-)
Haha!! Fair enough :D
You assume entire planet lives in Italy?
Of course cars suck in cities, but they are great in rural areas.
Where do you put the groceries in a Porsche?
The Boxster is mid-engined so there is no back seat, but a usable trunk at each end. The front trunk is takes up the entire space of a normal engine bay, and is surprisingly massive for how small the car is, because it is very deep.
Overall the Boxster is a surprisingly practical car- it was very cheap (cheaper than an old Prius of the same age) but now appreciating in value with age, can use a 3+ carpool lane with 2 people, is tiny so easy to park anywhere, and it is actually very reliable and low maintenance.
After 15 years of owning a Prius, I recently traded it in for a hybrid Toyota RAV4. I love the hybrid technology.
For me, the hybrid is fun to drive. I've never experienced any unresponsive inputs or lack of feedback in performance. The fun comes in at trying to keep the gas engine off as much as possible -- without going becoming a hypermiler and irritating other drivers -- both in city and long distance driving.
Hypermiling can be fun. I’ve also enjoyed a sort of anti-hypermiling: basically configuring and tuning a car such that it can be driven hard and still return amazing fuel economy. I’ve managed to configure a few small diesel vehicles like the VW TDIs such that they still get Prius level 50+ mpg when driven nearly flat out.
To be fair, you are contrasting an econobox with one of the all-time great driver’s cars :) I bet I have enough fingers to count cars more fun to drive than a Boxster.
I do agree about the Prius, though. It feels like driving a dishwasher.
I know it's weird to compare/contrast such different cars, but they're both in the same group to me: old cars I can buy cheap on Craigslist.
I don’t the comparison with a sports car is particular fair.
I regularly drive both a 2011 Prius and a 2023 BMW X1 “mild hybrid”, I’ve also test driven an iX1 electric and X3 “real” hybrid recently (all practical family cars).
In order of increasing accelerator-input-to-actually-moving (at low speed) delay:
iX1 electric (best) Prius X3 hybrid X1 mild hybrid (worst, dangerously bad)
That is to say, every time I get into the 14 year old Prius I think “wow this is nippy” after having driven the 2 year old X1, which we’ve nicknamed “the lag wagon”.
Toyota really nailed the driving ergonomics of the gen2 Prius, given the constraints. Yes, it’s a slow to accelerate at high speeds, but it’s still really nice drive around town.
> a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically
That is, a series hybrid, like a diesel locomotive?
Yes, a range extender EV like the BMW i3 REx is technically a series hybrid, but it is designed to operate most of the time on electricity only and be plugged in to charge- with a large EV size battery and a very small lightweight moped engine in the extender.
The range extender basically gives you protection from range anxiety, but isn't used at all in normal use of the vehicle. On the i3, it only starts the engine when the battery is nearly empty, but some people do software mods to be able to use the vehicle as a true series hybrid, and run the engine continuously for doing long distance freeway driving without stopping to charge.
> gives you protection from range anxiety
And grants you maintenance anxiety.
Where I live charging infrastructure is good enough that a 300-400km range EV is completely sufficient. Range extenders is a niche solution.
>I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Don't forget the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid that was just released. Using the Toyota Hybrid from the RAV4 with the elegance and beauty of Mazda design.
The non-hybrid version of the CX-50 is rated for quite good fuel economy. I encourage you to do the math on your own and check my results: it is unlikely that a buyer would ever save money by getting the hybrid option considering that they will likely keep it for no more than 7 years and that the non-hybrid will have larger discounts than the hybrid.
For the reason you stated in the last paragraph I eventually opted against getting a Hyundai Ioniq in favour of a Toyota.
The Hyundai felt like driving a regular automatic, so it would occasionally lunge awkwardly and spin the engine in situations where Toyotas switch to EV mode.
Sure it had better fuel economy, but I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input or make noise when it shouldn't.
> I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input
I'm spoiled from years of Priuses now, and driving gas cars, even fancy and expensive ones, feels bizarrely primitive. The lag between the pedal and the response, and the complex relationship between the input and the response, feels antiquated and arcane.
A while ago I rented a regular car and what bugged me was all the additional vibration associated with parts grinding and rolling against each other.
Also at least once I almost went "woah, horsie" as the car lunged forward because I tapped the accelerator a moment after it shifted to a lower gear without me noticing.
It used to be even worse. I had an opportunity to drive a 2005 BMW 7 series in a city where the speed limit was 30km/h. Unfortunately the gearbox was from a time way before traffic calming etc. went mainstream, so it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I ended up switching to manual gear selection mode.
> it couldn't decide which gear to pick.
I haven't felt that since I've been driving my CVT ICE for so long.
Then again, a coworker told me the CVT is likely to break before 100,000 miles. So.... thinking of buying a Prius. I love Priuses.
Honda CVT is supposed to be pretty solid if that’s what you have. Other CVTs are less solid, or so I hear.
nissan cvt is akin to you just giving money away
I think toyota cvts last longer than the lifetime of the car.
I had a loaner Ford Bronco Sport when I was having some maintenance on my hybrid. It had a 8 speed transmission and a turbo. Going from the super smooth eCTV to a vehicle that would jerk from shift changes/turbo when you just thought about touching the gas pedal has has put me off buying a vehicle with a normal transmission
To be fair, it did take some time for me to get used to how a hybrid sounds. It’s fine when not driving aggressively. When you floor it though, it does feel weird when the engine jumps to the highest safe revs and stays there. That’s a small price to pay for reliability and smooth power delivery though.
I actually prefer that over the usual revs going up and down depending on speed. I'm not American so my default before hybrids was driving stick. Never liked this steampunk-esque drama of moving from a standstill in such a car
Anyway revs do go up over a certain speed, but you need to be on the Autobahn to legally test it.
Are you talking about how the CVT transmission sounds?
Not sure exactly what you mean. As in, hybrids don’t have a CVT transmission, one with belts and the thing that changes diameter to achieve variability. Haven’t had one, but heard only bad things about those.
But yes, in that the power transmission is variable (e-CVT, right?), and that sounds a bit weird. You’ve spent so much time hearing how the engine gets louder with acceleration that it feels weird when the engine behaves slightly differently.
But again, that doesn’t bother me enough to buy a less reliable system.
Yeah I meant e-CVT. We actually own a highlander hybrid with e-CVT.
Actually every vehicle I've driven was CVT/e-CVT. 14 Corolla, 18 RAV4, 21 Highlander hybrid and 24 Integra. All super reliable. I'd still say CVT bothers me and I love it every time I get to rent a vehicle with traditional automatic.
My ICE CVT is like that, and hybrid systems behave sort of like CVTs.
The computer has an idea of "At this low RPM the engine is most efficient, at this high RPM it produces maximum horsepower". So if you floor it, the computer in either a CVT or a hybrid will bring the engine to full power and it will just sit there as the car accelerates.
The engine is getting loaded up and putting out more torque, and the throttle is opening, but it isn't really revving. In mine it does slowly climb from maybe 4,000 to 5,000 RPM, but it doesn't do the "rrrrRRRRRR... rrrrrrrRRRRR..." like a transmission with fixed gear ratios.
check out civic 11 gen, they are almost indistinguishable from regular ice cars when sitting inside
Does it have a power split device? E.g., a planetary gearbox?
No, it’s a different system than what Toyota uses: https://global.honda/en/tech/Honda_eHEV_next_generation/
Looks like a series hybrid with a clutch that bypasses the generator for a high-efficiency overdrive gear. It's simpler than the planetary gear system in a Prius, but they must have made the drive motor (equivalent to MG2 in Prius diagrams) bigger if they never combine power from both MG2 and the ICE. Or, that's not shown in the diagram.
Thanks!
Not a challenge, but a plea: where's your source(s) for this? I'm about where you were, but would love to know more about the internals so I can make an informed choice when my current (ICE) car dies.
The wikipedia page is quite in depth [0] but is quite dense and took me a few goes to understand. They're fascinating to understand, and they really are mechanically simpler than a standard ICE + gearbox drive line. I got nerd sniped one day figuring out how my Toyota Crown "gearbox" worked only to discover it doesn't really have one. They don't even have a real neutral gear, the wheels are always mechanically linked to the engine.
They require much more active computer control to work though so they aren't logically simpler in my opinion, but mechanical simplicity is what makes the biggest difference.
There are certainly better more approachable sources though so I leave this as an option as the info is there, but can take a moment to understand.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
The way I think of it comes from the old ME degree I got. You can analyze assemblies by the number of degrees of freedom. Three degrees of freedom, like three linkages pinned at the corners is a triangle and the relative positions of each element are fixed.
Four axis, like a square pinned at the corners if you know the relative position of two elements you know the position of the others. This is the basis for most traditional machines.
Five axis is floppy. And usually avoided traditionally.
The synergy drive is a five axis machine mechanically. But has two electric motor generators. By varying the speed of the motors you can control the gear ratio of the mechanical path. Since the motor speeds are indignantly variable so is the mechanical path. You end up with continuously variable transmission with a mechanical power path and an electric one in parallel. And it doesn't suck like pure mechanical ones.
Totally genius.
I’m with you in general. Though, with the amount of electronics and “computer-complexity” that modern ICE cars have, I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference!
This video is my favorite on the topic: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM&pp=ygUKV2ViZXIgcmF...
That's really good, I watched one of their older videos to understand what I was getting into before I bought a Toyota a few years back. For those reading, the video is from Weber State University, they have a series of hourish long detailed videos on various automotive components including different versions of the Toyota electric transaxle and rear electric drive unit (mechanically separate but present in the AWD vehicles).
My takeaway was the same as some of the other posters here, the system is an engineering tour de force. Simpler than the gas version, proven reliability, and efficiency not too far off the theoretical limit of gas-burning drive trains.
This video cleared up my confusion and corrected my misconceptions, giving me enough knowledge to hold a one-hour discussion with an actual Toyota mechanic.
Highly recommended!
That video is what made me get a Toyota hybrid.
Seeing how simple the whole mechanism is, I totally get why the empirical reliability is so good.
Not to mention that the lecturer shows and explains things very clearly.
This is a great series by a Toyota mechanic:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeFzfl0Q8rQUOHwFNOMTu...
He goes into the practicalities of owning/maintaining/repairing as well as the engineering.
An accessible video that builds up the design intuitively from first-principals using a 3d model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_xCssR8qQI
Take a look at this:
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
Also, YouTube helps. Search for “Power Split Device” or “e-CVT”.
Regarding other hybrid tech, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. I basically use ChatGPT with search enabled to have sources, and then ask how the system works. It’s never in the marketing materials, I guess most don’t care.
Respectfully, why are you asking for sources on an already high effort subjective post instead of verifying the info yourself? Wikipedia is a great place to start with car spec stuff.
Because when I ask questions like that in this forum, I get great answers (as you've seen). And, other visitors with the same interests can benefit from those answers.
I had an Accord hybrid and it did not have a transmission at all. There was a clutch and a single gear, which engaged over about 45 mph. Otherwise, the vehicle was propelled by an electric motor. The design, as far as I know, is significantly different than what Toyota uses. Having no transmission plus very little brake wear due to regen breaking felt like a good tradeoff.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34667856/the-updat...
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...
Can't agree more, I can't understand why any car person would not be excited about THS II system anymore ever since its executive summary finally clicked, other than because that Prius as a product used to be so badly designed until Tesla started seriously threatening Toyota.
If only Toyota made bunch of toy models for THS and built couple 2-door hybrids so that more people would get it. I suppose it's a case of innovator's dilemma, but it's so unfortunate.
Naive question: aren't belts lower maintenance than chains, and don't let last longer? Why doesn't a engine with a chain drive require equal or more replacements?
Amusingly, my 1995 Saturn had a timing chain, and the chain skipped a tooth on its last day, at roughly 60k miles. Now, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the chain per se but it was the end of a sequence of failures involving the engine design.
On all of our other cars (Toyota), the belts needed to be serviced at X miles, but it was actually a cheap and quick procedure.
Unlike most bicycle chains, timung chains are permanently lubricated with filtered oil. Belts are not.
Ford and a few other makers have been using oil-immersed timing belts lately. They quite reliably fail after the car's warranty is up but well before the rest of the car is junk.
I agree, they are a disaster. However, I have heard people argue that Honda and other manufacturers have been using oil emersed belts for decades.
After 2017 Ford started using belts to drive the oil pump in F-150 engines (and possibly other Ecoboost engines). I have seen 100k teardowns of failed engines and the belt is not looking good at that point. If the belt breaks the engine is toast by the time the operator realizes what is going on.
Umm.. No and no. Belts need to be changed at some service interval, usually 100k SI units. If you don’t do it, a ripped belt wreaks havoc on the engine. Chains are typically installed for the life of the engine, and need to be changed only if it’s a problem.
A caveat though. I used to have a Škoda Fabia with a chain drive, and I did end up changing it, as it started making the tell-tale sound when stop-go.
In the context of hybrids though, I fully expect that chain to last the lifetime of the engine. The engine is under significantly less load than in a traditional ICE, so less stress on the chain. Also, for 100k mileage, the motor-hours that the engine has worked are less than in an ICE due to the engine regularly being off.
No. Chains are better.
My Land Cruiser has a timing belt. I replace it every 90k miles per Toyota's specifications. My Tundra has the same engine, except that it has a timing chain. I've never bothered to replace the timing chain.
A timing chain is preferable as long as it isn't something like a Jaguar/Land Rover. The chain in those doesn't matter because they use plastic tensioners that eventually become brittle at crack/fail.
Chains can stretch, weigh more and make noise. This is why belts are used, in addition to being a space saver. The ultimate in reliability are gear drives. Those truly never wear out or need replaced (found in nearly any diesel engine).
Chains were very common in American cars and trucks for decades and they did need replaced after 150k-200k miles. I replaced the one in my 1993 Ford 5.0 at about 150k hard miles and it made a dramatic difference in performance (solved knocking/preignition on hills).
These days, there are some engines with (oil immersed) belts, but that's for fuel efficiency, not longevity. Chains last longer, typically, although I used to have a 97 Honda VFR that had neither. They started with chains in earlier models but had reliability issues so switched to straight cut gears. Man I miss the way those things sounded -- like a supercharger whine. Amazing
I was also worried about my wrong perception of hybrids being too complex. I recommend people to check on how e-CVT transmissions work, they are quite amazing and simple.
I also have now an hybrid Corolla (the station wagon version the US does not get. Because we all now Station wagons are the superior form of car.)
I used to drive a Prius until the hybrid battery system died, and the quote to replace it was a significant fraction of the value of the entire vehicle. I’ve driven ICE ever since.
My goal is usually to drive my vehicle all the way into the ground, and I guess that’s what happened to my Prius except it happened around if not before 150,000 miles.
When my Prius's hybrid battery died, I swapped out the two bad cells (out of 28) for good ones. Cost of parts and labour: $300.
How long did that last?
I have a Prius that's at 100k right now. Repairing the battery is within my abilities but I'm concerned that if one or two cells fail, more will be right behind it.
It's lasted a year and 10,000 kms so far.
Did you do it at a dealership, at a non-affiliated garage, or yourself?
I could see how there could be situations when someone tries to sell you into changing all the cells, even when that’s not necessary.
My trusted mechanic, my second cousin did it for me. The only difficult part was lifting the traction battery.
So when your engine eventually fails in your ICE car and costs many thousands to replace, will you return to EVs?
Depends on how many miles are on it.
Smarty!
Knew a dude that was asked several grands for replacing his hybrid Yaris batteries. He couldn't afford it, so he drove everywhere with the old battery. Because of the extra weight, he ended up consuming more fuel than the purely ICE Yaris.
That shouldn’t work. In a Toyota hybrid it’s the electric motor that effectively starts driving, and is also responsible for starting the ICE. So the car doesn’t really work with the drive battery not working.
I wish Toyota would make enough Siennas to satisfy demand. Instead, there's are long wait lists at dealers.
There is only one factory, and it also makes the Highlander, Grand Highlander, and Lexus TX. The Sienna would need to become a lot more profitable for Toyota to reduce production of the other 3 to make room for more Siennas.
They could raise the price if they wanted it to be more profitable! Dealers already exploit the long wait list to do so in a way that doesn’t pass through to Toyota.
I’m in a large metro area; when I go to the Toyota website and look at inventory within 20 miles, I see 1 Sienna that is not in transit and not sale pending. That’s across 9 dealerships! By contrast, for the new Land Cruiser I am seeing 31 vehicles that are not in transit and not sale pending. On dealer lots. Most of them have $3k+ discounts listed! 12 Corolla hybrids; 24 Camrys. 87 Tacomas!!!
I have no idea what Toyota’s strategy with the Sienna is.
Yeah, I see four. Mostly $6k over MSRP.
It's the only good minivan in exsistance.
I wish they just sold Siennas in Europe…
:hide_the_pain:
We don't even get Camry in Italy, it's just Yaris, Corolla, Aygo and suvs
See here for a counterpoint on hybrids putting less stress on their engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eC5FFoCq4s ("It Turns Out, Hybrids Are Really Hard On Engines")
Is that a counterpoint considering the conclusion of the video is that Toyota has done the things necessary to mitigate the issues?
I would not call a CVT "not a gearbox". Were Audis equipped with their multitronic option (not in any way related to hybrid or BEV) "cars without a gearbox"?
A traditional CVT is a different beast. Prius is more accurately described as having a power-split gearbox that can dynamically split the power between the gasoline engine and the electric motor.
Prius system is considered "CVT" for bureaucratic reasons only, it's slightly fancier EV style reduction gear.
Yeah, I’d say “not a gearbox”. A gearbox to me is something where there are actual gears engaging and disengaging leading to wear and tear. Doesn’t matter what kind of fancy electronics are then used to hide the mechanical operation from me.
A mechanical CVT with belts and pulleys with changing diameters is even worse.
What the hybrids (e-CVT ones) have though is basically a planetary gear set, where the gears are put together at the factory, and stay there for the life of the car.
To me that’s not a gearbox. At least not in the traditional sense. Transmission sure.
To me the key element is that it can run different transmission ratios: wether that's in discrete steps or a continuous ramp, that's an implementation detail. BEV (most of them) don't have that, the Prius has. When I read GP post my (surprised) impression from the "no gearbox" claim was that the Prius started as a serial hybrid. (it did not)
Is THS actually capable of varying transmission ratio? I thought it can modulate resistance but not actually change gear ratio.
Transmission ratio yes, as in, what part of engine power gets transmitted to the wheels. Individual gear ratios of course not.
So the relationship between engine RPM and wheel RPM is always fixed, only torque split is varied, right? I think that's around where some confusions are coming from.
No, the engine can spin without the wheels spinning. Then MG1 gets spun and charges the battery (or spins freely if the battery is full).
This page has a neat PSD simulation to help grok what happens:
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
I think it only works from a computer though!
The new Prius is really good-looking (to my eye at least), especially in person: I don't think the photos (I've seen) do it justice. Fun comparisons to the car Burt Reynolds drove in Smokey and the Bandit: Compared to the 1977 Pontiac Trans Am:
The new Prius looks good, but I love my old Prius’s spacious hatchback. With the backseat down we can stick 3 giant dogs back there. I don’t know if there’s a hybrid with similar internal space.
I got my 65" TV in the back of mine, although it was a tight fit.
I fit a fully assembled entertainment center in mine. Only an inch or two to spare in every dimension but it fit!
RAV4
I wanted to like the 2024+ Prius, I really did. I was in the market for a new car anyway, so I went and test drove one (not that I could have got one right away, at the time). Takeaways...
- it drives really nice with plenty of power
- the "gearshift" (not that it is one, but that part of the UI) is nonintuitive
- the interior looks smaller than it is, due to massive A-pillars and little to no rearward visibility
- it looks much better than past Priuses, but the rear door handles single-handedly put back the "dork factor"
None of that would have mattered that much, but the dealbreaker: Trunk space. I mean, space to load stuff when there are already 4 people in the car so you can't just fold down the back seat. That trunk floor is high. Folded it up and what's underneath? A styrofoam spacer matrix! WTF? Why not a spare tire instead (you don't get one)? I can imagine an ugly hack, tearing all that out, just to get a bit more trunk space but really? My only guess is that the Prius Prime's extra battery goes here, and they don't want to have it have less trunk space than the regular Prius.
We are (by choice) a one-car family and we have two kids. When we travel we need a certain amount of trunk space, and the Prius doesn't have it. Aside from that, the Prime would have been lovely - enough battery to do your around-town driving entirely electrically! I never even thought of the "no heat" angle.
> None of that would have mattered that much, but the dealbreaker: Trunk space.
I hear you. I got a 2022 Prius Prime and I was disappointed with the smaller trunk space compared with the 2010(ish) Prius I had before, but I still went with it. However, my understanding is that the newer models somehow have even smaller trunk space space. At least that space under the trunk floor is filled with batteries in my case.
While I'm happy enough with my purchase, I suspect I won't be getting a Prius in the future. If I want a PHEV, I might look at the Rav4 Prime, but I think I'm more likely to look for a full EV when the time comes.
Oh wow, the 2024 Prius Prime has a full 3 seats in back. When we were Prius shopping in 2018, we were disappointed to learn that getting plug-in capability cost an extra $10K and removed the rear center seat. We ultimately just bought a "regular" Prius. I'm sure we _would have_ figured it how to install a car seat in such a tight space, but I don't regret missing that frustration.
Was the RAV4 bigger than you wanted? Solves the space issue and the footprint is not much more than the Prius.
Doesn’t sound as cool though. Maybe the Mustang team was onto something when they were playing supplementary fake engine sounds in the cabin speakers
Will people always think vroom vroom sounds cool? As far as I'm concerned, we can't get rid of it soon enough. When I rent an ICE car, I'm always annoyed by the engine revving sounds.
I mean, I’m not really a fan of the spaceship whine that the newest Honda CR-V models put out in electric mode. It’s going to be hard to please everybody on this planet.
I’d much prefer to hear a car coming than not, personally.
The fake engine sounds played through the cabin speakers don't help with that.
Could you imagine if the Ford Model T had coconuts installed to mimic the sound of a horse's feet?
Or a pile of manure in the trunk to simulate the smell.
I’d much prefer to smell a car coming than not, personally.
Dank smells save lives
The problems with the Prius are basically:
If not for those things it would be great, but unfortunately they've made zero progress on fixing any of the core issues for the last 25 years. The new models definitely do look cooler, and I appreciate that they accelerate faster, but I personally care much more about the stuff that could potentially kill me when I'm driving.> - No way to defrost your windshield, unless you're already driving
I have a 2022 Prius Prime, and I am moderately sure with the car on and in park I can press the front window defrost button, and the ICE will turn on and start blowing hot air on the front window.
Also, while parked and plugged in at home, I can use the remote A/C button to start heating the cabin and front windshield while clearing off snow and clearing the driveway, and will be powered from my house. I'm not sure if this also works without being plugged in.
Can confirm, I have a 2017 Prius Prime, I keep it set to prefer all-EV driving, but I just got in and turned on the defroster to melt some frost off the windshield, it switches on the ICE engine. My only complaint is that it is not terribly smart about turning it back off during the same session of driving, if I turn off the defrost. I think in theory the heat pump would be able to provide the heat to do the job, but it'd use the charge in the traction battery up quickly...
It has been my experience that if the ICE engine in the Prius Prime switches on for the first time for any reason, it prefers to remain on for several minutes at a minimum, no matter what. I have a theory for why this happens, but it is purely speculation on my part.
> - Terrible in snow and ice
I don’t know what gave you that idea, unless this is a complaint about FWD vs AWD. They do fine around here in snow and ice.
Snow and ice performance is primarily (by a wide margin) about the tires. Next is the diffs and/or traction control for keeping both wheels moving when one starts slipping.
A Prius on snow tires does about as well as any other common FWD car.
Ours with snow tires does great. Most people probably don't have snow tires though, and they may have tires that perform worse-than-normal like LRR tires or full summer tires.
Snow tires are great on all FWD and are probably way cheaper than buying a new AWD car.
I expect they are referring to the traction control system. On ice, it's really hard to get started moving when it's constantly kicking in. If you're trying to get across one or more lanes of traffic to turn left (driving on right), then you can be in danger of getting hit unless you leave a lot more time to get across.
There's a hidden procedure to disable it. I keep it saved in a note in my phone and have needed to use it one (1) time ever.
- Press Start button twice.
- Push accelerator to the floor twice.
- Push and hold brake pedal and shift into Neutral then release brake pedal.
- Push accelerator to the floor twice.
- Push and hold brake pedal and shift into Park then release brake pedal.
- Push accelerator to the floor twice.
- Start car.
You should see the Traction Control warning light stay on to signal it’s deactivated. It will automatically reactivate when the car is restarted.
If you move the stick Down, R, Up, L, and hit Y, B you get mega turbo
I own a Prius and live in Vermont. It does just fine with snow and ice. As others have pointed out, proper snow tires make a huge difference, way more than any car tech. I also think the newer models have AWD as an option.
To defrost, you can just turn the car on, switch out of EV mode, and turn on the defroster. It works like every other car.
The rear window visibility is not the best. I do agree there.
New prime 2024 has no awd.
Ah I guess it’s just the regular prius? Bummer
> Terrible in snow and ice
New Englander here. I've owned two Priuses (2004 and 2010) and both have been surprisingly able to handle winter weather quite well. Not as good as my Outback, but in light to medium conditions and driven by an experienced winter driver they performed admirably.
The older one made it through a major blizzard in rural road and interstate driving across 4 states, albeit at a reduced rate of speed (45 mph, which drove up the MPG to 52, a record for that car).
We still drive the 2010 model. I'm hoping that Subaru will get its act together on hybrid by the time we have to retire the Prius, but I would definitely get another Toyoya hybrid.
Next Forester Hybrid will get hybrid technology from Toyota:
https://www.motor1.com/news/696979/subaru-forester-hybrid-to...
I own a 2024 Toyota Corolla Hybrid (similar drive train to Prius) and it defrost the window way faster than my previous Volkswagen Passat. Ice and snow handling has been pretty similar here in North Europe compared to my previous car, studded winter tires are the key. Visibility is also quite comprareble.
> Terrible in snow and ice
Are they worse than most front-drive cars? (And what about compared with a Trans Am?)
> No way to defrost your windshield, unless you're already driving
I've wondered about that. The Prius still gets its cabin heating from the ICE?
> Poor rear window visibility
Agree completely.
My experience with a prius in the north east was that it wasn't particularly bad in ice and snow and the few times I got caught in snowstorms it handled about as well as any front wheel drive car. I certainly wouldn't go out into a snowstorm with it if I had the choice, but thats true of almost any non-awd drive. The windshield defrosting situation was also a non issue for me.
Man I miss my prius, I sold it when gas was under $2...
Agreed. I still have a 2008, and it has gotten me through a couple nor'easters. Even with the original Goodyear Integrity tires. One of them was on the rolling hills of I-90 and I-84 through western Massachusetts and Connecticut. On every uphill portion I'd pass people who had gotten stuck, until I finally reached a place to stop for the night and wait out the storm. The front wheel drive seems to make it better than a lot of other cars out there. Put some CrossClimate2 tires on it, and it would be even better.
Cabin heating is done by heat pump but the gas engine kicks on for the front defrost. I don't know what parent is referring to wrt not being able to run defroster.
I haven't found any of the Prius I've owned to be terrible in snow and ice. They are front wheel drive and have traction control and it works fine.
> The Prius has all the modern stuff
Hilarious to think this is modern stuff. This stuff is 2-3 decades old.
I included information screen -- just didn't want to type out Apple and Android car software. And backup cameras are more recent than 20 years mostly.
CarPlay isn't exactly amazing either. It's good at some things and sucks at others.
I rode in one when I called an Uber once and was über amazed... it's so spacious too! Pics really don't do it justice
The Trans Am also had simple analogue controls - including for the heat & AC - while the new Prius has evidently succumbed to the overcomplicated "let's take away buttons" phenomenon.
Also, you're not getting a bride to leave her husband at the altar if you pull up alongside in a Prius. Just sayin'.
I'll toast a Coors Banquet to that!
---------
Amen to that though! I agree that the new gen Prius looks really sleek! I tried EVs but the range and lack of after-market parts was really limiting, so I've been fairly happy with the Prius Prime.
But
- Does not look as cool
I love my Prius. What amazes me about the car is how “idiot-proof” or “smart” it is. I try my best to hypermile and squeeze out every last MPG, while my wife doesn’t make any effort to baby it—and yet, we both consistently get about 57 MPG combined. The car adapts to how you drive it, which is really impressive.
I think Toyota deserves as much credit as Apple for its “it just works” ethos. The way they design the technology to be seamless and work so well behind the scenes is remarkable. Additionally, many Toyota mechanics consider the Prius to be the most reliable car Toyota makes. This often surprises people because of the perceived complexity of hybrids, but in reality, they are elegantly engineered and surprisingly simple.
I love to hypermile my accord hybrid, but when my wife pulls the exact same mileage without doing anything special, it makes me feel so goofy.
I’ll continue to hypermile for fun anyway lol
I hypermile my gas SUV cuz I feel guilty about the inefficiency, but we just got an EV and Im driving like a maniac breaking it in for fun and cuz no more guilt.
Sorry to ruin your guilt free parade, but don’t forget that your charging is still producing emissions - just from a distance.
Congrats on the EV though. I really want one, but it’s just not practical for the 400+ mile trips we regularly need to make throughout the year.
Nonzero for sure. But regenerative breaking plus fairly green energy (lotta hydro) is a whole different ball game than 100% gas.
I would go even further and say comparing Apple to Toyota is a high praise for Apple. Toyota, one of the world's largest manufacturers of any product, created its own management and engineering style (e.g. TPS) that continue to edify engineers to this day. Toyota survived and thrived this long in a highly competitive field, especially on a global stage -- a rare instance for a Japanese company. Steve Jobs in his peak had great admiration for Japanese manufacturers like Toyota and wanted to emulate them.
One of the reasons that Toyota was still pushing out cars during covid while nearly everyone else had a shortage was their mastery of the supply chain. They make sure that their critical suppliers are as redundant as possible and well taken care of. Not only did Toyota maintain a stockpile of critical parts, the distributors gave them preference because they paid on time.
I recently bought the 2012 Prius and at least in Europe it has features that not many 2024 cars have here. HUD, backup camera, regen breaking, automatic transmission, multiple digital displays, Bluetooth, stop-start at lights, EV drive mode on the tiny battery for a few minutes..
I know all cars can’t be perfect but as a 2010 Prius owner (I probably shouldn’t complain given it’s 15 years old) it has had several well documented issues that never prompted a recall.
I was hit with a bad oil gasket that causes the engine to burn oil. It’s so much work to replace their solution is to replace the entire engine. My solution is to keep putting oil in it. I was told by the dealer this is common over 70k miles.
The steering controls (heat, volume, cruise) stopped working pretty early on. It was well over $1k to fix, mostly labor. Apparently the connection they use is prone to failure.
Leaves me wondering if my next car will be a Toyota. Maybe if they adopted Apple CarPlay.
That being said, batteries are still good and I’ve been pretty impressed how low the maintenance has been.
Another 2010 owner here. I'm at 280,000km, and other than burning some oil everything still works fine. Usually by this age cars here are pretty rusty, but so far my Prius has held up well. There's a few spots of surface rust in places, but nothing serious.
We had to replace the inverter a few years ago (apparently there was a software update to prevent this failure, but we didn't have it), but even when that broke the car was still driveable, just the ICE engine was running all the time.
The biggest issue I've had is with brakes. Three times now the rear pads have got rusty and I've had to replace both the pads and rotors. My theory is that as they are hardly used, they don't get hot enough to dry out any moisture. Last year I rebuild the rear calipers, so let's see if that fairs any better.
Have you (or any other 2010 Prius owner) heard about or experienced problems with the brake booster / actuator assembly?
I think the issues might be described in this article: https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2019/toyota-brake-booster...
FWIW they have adopted carplay. I have a 2019 prius prime, which was I think the last year before they swapped over. My neighbor has a 2024 model, and it has resolved my two main complaints about my car, in that it has carplay and they have three seats in the back now instead of two.
All Toyotas have CarPlay for years now
My 2024 Corolla supports Apple CarPlay.
Good news! They have CarPlay on all their vehicles now
Absolutely love my 2014 PHEV Prius, will do about 7 miles on battery which will get me to the shops and back. Never had a problem with it, about to hit 200k miles and still pretty much perfect
Honestly, I think it’s actually the second generation Prius that transformed the auto industry. The first generation was quirky, had poor crash test ratings, and was full of compromises.
The second generation showed that they could produce a sedan with high reliability, a decent sized passenger cabin, high crash test ratings, and very little compromises over a regular car except speed and sell it at a massive scale with incredible gas mileage, lower maintenance costs and great reliability.
I think it also showed that you could build a smaller car, throw in all the technology features and young people would buy it where previously, manufacturers would only put the latest and greatest features on their largest vehicles. For example, if you wanted the latest and greatest features from Mercedes, you would have to buy the S class, so even if you wanted a smaller more efficient car, if you were an early adopter, you had to buy the largest model. I think the Prius was a point where people realized that the youngest people wanted these tech features but they didn’t want a giant car.
I'm almost 40 and never had a car in my life. But recently I'm thinking about buying one and probably it will be a Toyota hybrid (Lexus if I get a windfall lol)
Hope Toyota get their mojo back for EVs.
I'm kinda OK with them just dominating hybrids; especially plugins.
I own a 2024 Prius Prime (PHEV) and the setup works great. No range anxiety, no special charging infra (I just plug in on a normal 120v overnight). I got the car in Feb 24 and maybe pumped gas a total of 8 times? If I didn't make two longer trips, it would have been 6.
But also, the power output is pretty great and an upgrade over the hybrid only model.
It feels like the sweet spot for most Americans and doesn't require any real lifestyle change.
Big shame is that dealers aren't necessarily charging them on the lot. So if you test drive one, you might only feel the hybrid and not the EV mode.
A regular EV also requires no special infrastructure. Just your regular house electrical system (e.g. 120v wall outlet in the US). Only on long trips do you need fast chargers or does range anxiety kick in. If you do a lot of long drives I can see that being a problem. But if not I'd be willing to bet you'd lose less time charging than taking your vehicle to the mechanic for maintenance and repairs. Because the EV, when built well, requires a frighteningly low amount of maintenance.
Problem is that because it's a full EV, it might leave me at a deficit charging only on 120v.
On the other hand, two days a week I make a drive that's just beyond EV range and the hybrid just kicks in afterwards.
Based on the limited info you've shared, you don't seem to drive enough to be at a deficit. Maybe it will take the night to charge the 10-20% you've used during the day, but you have a big buffer.
You can't pick a car with a small battery though as that will cause problems on long trips. Something around 80 kWh should be enough for most people.
For many people in cities, it’s hard to secure parking with reliable access to an electrical outlet.
Something that makes it easier to own EVs here in London (UK) are these chargers on lampposts, there are probably thousands of them at this point: https://i.imgur.com/1YdeVwf.png
They're slow (3-7kW), can't be installed everywhere, there are not enough if everyone wants to charge at the same time, and some areas still don't have them, but plug it in when you arrive and you should be fine to go in the morning. It's a good idea and more places should adopt it.
Not just in cities. In the U.S. at least, a lot of people live in suburban townhouse complexes that have shared parking lots. It's going to take a lot of investment to make charging easy for everyone.
That wouldn’t be a problem for the op with the phev because they are already charging at home and only driving less than 30 miles each day except 8 times in the past year. I still don’t get why phevs are a thing.
>> If you do a lot of long drives
>> the EV, when built well
Home charging at 120v for an EV is only practical for the most minimal & predictable use. And I'll add "as long as you don't want to sell it used..."
You’ll typically add 50 miles of range overnight, which is more than the average person drives in a day. That’s not minimal. Unpredictability is buffered by the large battery. You can drive 200 miles one day then slowly fill it back up. Fast chargers can be a backup for the occasional times it’s not enough.
Why would there be an issue with selling it used when doing this?
Nobody is interested in used EVs, therefore resale values are very low.
Resale values are lower in US because they factor in the 7.5k USD tax credit and the state tax credit mostly, there is plenty of demand for used teslas for example.
Similar in other countries but sometimes not as direct.
Various regulations set targets which gives manufacturers incentives to hit sales targets. This leads to discounts or great lease deals just before certain dates if targets aren't met through standard prices.
As written here, it’s presented as a specific disadvantage of charging from a 120V outlet, so that’s not it.
Resale values are low compared to new prices. Tell me, why does your logic not apply to new prices?
For the same reasons people are interested in new iPhones, but not last year iPhones. And tax incentives.
I’ve been hearing that for years now, and for years I’ve had an eye on the used EV market, and I don’t really see that happening here in Europe.
I think it was true, at least in the US, back then the Leaf was the most common EV. Their battery longevity was trash, they had poor range to start with, and tax credits pushed down the effective new price a lot.
The resale values are only low compared to the inflated COVID prices. A 3 year old Tesla 3 goes for about $25k. Which is painful if you paid $70k for the 3. However, the buyer is comparing to a new 3 which you can get for $35k after tax credit.
The opposite will occur when Trump cancels the credit.
Not really. Living in Switzerland, colleague has Model S, and over whole night plugged in his house he can charge only around 9km/h. That basically covers his commute but he can't build up charge for the weekend if he started week empty. Not even going into the fact that most folks here live in apartments and not standalone houses, and charging situation there is usually terrible and overhead of owning electric car is significant.
That sucks tremendously (on top of other tesla-related suck like extremely expensive OEM replacement parts that nobody else can service), and considering we talk about Switzerland here (and expensive well developed part of it), other countries are not that better off if at all.
As a backup, non-critical second car, why not if you feel like an early adopter and paying >40k for a function a used 5k car can perform even better. Main family car? No thank you, maybe for half the cost but probably even that's too much in this decade.
Is it that expensive to get an electric car charger installed?
I just got two installed for $800, and the charger itself is $420 each. Even if a circuit panel had to be upgraded and some wire needed to be run, surely it is only a couple thousand extra at most.
Seems like you might have a case of SV myopia. The idea that $1640 plus “a few thousand extra” to be able to drive a very expensive vehicle would be not “that expensive” is pretty out of touch.
Electric vehicles are not “very” expensive, even in Europe, and it’s a capital expense. That charger is going to be useful for decades to come.
And if electric vehicles pencil out in the US to equal cost of gas cars including oil changes and all that, then surely they do in Europe with their higher gas costs.
Can you put numbers to not very expensive? Looking at vw for their ev equivalents, for me personally, it qualifies as very expensive (without subsidies)
I tried to find new gas vs electric car sale prices in a couple European countries, but I couldn’t easily find a reputable source.
With how active European governments are on legislation to curb carbon emissions, I assumed the proposition of a new electric vehicle to a new gas vehicle would be at least as good as the US (over the lifetime of the car, higher initial cost for EV, but lower maintenance costs).
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/europe...
Of course, this only applies to people with a home with a space to park and charge their car, and whose everyday destinations are mostly within an hour.
Edit: looks like small diesel cars are still available in Europe, so taking those as the base option, I can see how an EV would be expensive. This option doesn’t exist in the US, though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1bfhpnl/does_it_ma...
Not OP but my power company gave me $1500, I only had to pay like $300 in total. There's currently (or, was, as may be the case in a few days) a ton of credits/assistance.
That was for two chargers, not one. And normal outlets give plenty of range overnight, it’s just a luxury to be able to charge faster when you want.
A new 200A electrical panel costs $5000-6000 to be installed with a permit in SV. If you want to run 50A wire for an L2 charger that might be $1000-2000 more. Getting close to $10000, so I'd say it is fairly expensive.
That’s just SV, though, you would’ve paid <1/3 that elsewhere.
Or just run an extension cord from your dryer outlet with a splitter. $100 and done.
Interesting, we got that charging speed off of a normal US 1.5kw outlet (120v, 12 amps). Don’t most European standard outlets put out more than that?
If the numbers I find online for tesla power usage is correct, that would indicate that she charges with around 1.8 kW. But most homes should have little problem supplying the double (16 ampere with 230v = 3.680kW). But maybe she is stuck with 10 ampere?
But even with 9km/h I am surprised that's not enough, does she really drive more than 108km a day?
(this is not to take away from her experience, I am just surprised)
Europe has higher voltage, 230, so should go faster than charging from 120V.
The downside of plugins is that it has both systems (more things that can go wrong, added cost, weight) and they're not amazing at being an ICE car (small fuel tank) or electric car (small battery).
In your case it seems that a pure EV would be fine? Maybe not one with a small battery, but 300-400 miles of range isn't that uncommon these days.
In any case, the important thing is that it works well for you.
It's also not great that people sometimes buy them because of breaks on price and then keep them where they can't plug them in, which is the worst of both worlds. But a properly used plug-in hybrid can be a good thing for some yeah
Re: being a gas-powered car: they seem fine in terms of tank size, 11 litres for a prius prime vs 13 litres for a gas corolla from the 2010s. You get better fuel efficiency, too, so your effective range is likely at least as good as a regular gasoline car.
The added complexity / part count is definitely a downside, though.
Edit: er, now I'm not sure about my second statement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42748610
Regarding the complexity, I believe Toyota has been ahead of the (hybrid) competition for many years, but a PHEV still has two different systems. Everything that can go bad on a pure EV (battery, electric motors, charging system) is there and even if the ICE part is simpler, it's still something that can break.
With this said, other reports of batteries going bad on old Prius, I haven't read much about them being unreliable, so it should be fine while the car is fairly new.
I think you meant gallons and not litres. At least the Prius prime seems to have a 10.6 gallon tank.
I was planning on buying the highest trim '24 Prius prime but availability and dealership markup made it unreasonable even in a large city. The lower trims didn't seem worth it. Instead I bought a used '23 model 3 long range with every upgrade (accel & fsd) and still saved money. Car had a few thousand miles.
I'm super happy I didn't get the Prius. Spec wise the Tesla is superior. Driving our other ice car is less enjoyable for me now. I use 120v but I work from home so it works. I still like the Prius/RAV4 prime but at its price point and limited availability I just don't see the value over Tesla.
The trick with the Prius Prime (and all PHEVs) is to lease and buy out the lease. That's a $7500 discount.
How well do Prius Primes (or other PHEVs) handle long periods where one's daily mileage is well under the EV mode range and one is able to charge at home every night? I think it has been 5+ years since I've driven more than 25 miles in a day and even longer since I was away from home overnight.
I've read ICEs can have problems if you go too long without running them. Will the Prime's software automatically run the ICE on occasion to keep it in good shape?
The VW PHEV’s will run the combustion engine regularly, mainly to avoid the fuel going stale. I assume the Toyota does the same.
My friend's Jeep will give them a notice that it needs to switch to gas when it hasn't been used for a while, so it seems like a pretty common thing across manufacturers.
Also, have they sorted out the 12V battery management for this low use scenario?
Our family has an older Hybrid Camry from around 2010 and it will destroy 12V batteries with too much local driving and parking. A typical regular ICE does better in the same conditions.
From the behavior, I assume it's because they only charged the 12V via a weak alternator when the ICE runs, rather than also keeping it charged via DC-DC conversion from the larger electric traction power system.
They haven't solved it.
I just returned from a 21 day trip and my 12v was dead because I left the Prius off the charger. It's fine as long as it's on the charger (my guess is it trickle charges it), but if you leave it off the charger, the traction battery doesn't maintain the 12v.
That's too bad. It shouldn't necessarily even need to charge the battery when parked, so much as have smarter battery management logic to get the car into lower power consumption states when parked and to more aggressively maintain the 12V charge when operating.
We resorted to installing a big master cutoff switch on the negative battery terminal in the trunk of the Camry. So if there is no plan to use the car again in the next few days, we electrically isolate the battery.
Then, we have to go through a longer "boot up" process to reactivate the car for its next use. Use the mechanical key to open the trunk, restore power, then enter the cabin and go through multiple cycles with the START button to let all the computers power back up...
The engine still kicks on once in a while. Notably now in winter, it kicks on if I have multiple seat heaters and the steering wheel heater on. But my use case also has two days where it's over the battery range so I know it'll kick on.
You can manually control it if you want and I do it once in a while when I need more acceleration since max power is delivered with both drivetrains.
We had this situation when we lived in a big city, before we moved somewhere that we drive longer distances regularly. We’d often go over a year without filling up. The engine runs occasionally to keep the gas from going stale, and in the winter the engine will kick on for the defroster. We never had any issues with it, and still have the car now.
Also importantly, it’s now quite good-looking, too.
And as much power as an early 2000's V6 Maxima. Great daily driver; seats are just so-so though.
The Sienna is a great hybrid if you are wanting something larger for families or hauling stuff. Tons of space, really nice cabin, and far more practical for 90% of uses than a huge pickup or any of the large SUVs. I can haul groceries and my large dog in the back cargo area w/ the 3rd row down, or put the row up for seating seven.
Oh, and mileage is 30-34 mpg, at least when its not the middle of midwest winter.
I do wish they'd release their PHEV vans over here (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/41970489.html), which also look like something out of Blade Runner.
The Alphard and Vellfires are the equivalent of an Escalade in Japan and ASEAN. I don't think that PMF would translate in the US. Sucks becuase the seats are really comfy.
Ironically, if you're looking forward to an Electric SUV, you're more likely to find that in India where macho SUV culture is massive.
I wish the Sienna had a plug in option. I’m ready for a new van.
“Hope <the number two by sales in the US vehicle manufacturer> gets their mojo back” is certainly a take.
I feel the same way as the parent comment. They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. Their bets on hydrogen fuel cells haven't yielded anything, and now they're a decade behind on developing EV experience and expertise.
I've owned three Toyotas because they've always seemed to be the lowest total-cost-of-ownership option, being especially good in the compact and midsize segments. American manufacturers are trying as hard as possible to abandon those segments. So what will we be left with? I don't want a giant, luxury sports car that costs $50k+.
> They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars.
I wouldn’t worry about that anymore.
For the next 2-4 years, sure, but this seems like a longer-term trend towards something that's going to happen eventually.
No, I think we're seeing a correction in the long term trend. It's possible that EV's will take over the car market, but if they do it will be because that's what consumers prefer, not because of government mandates.
I mean ice are definitely going to be banned sooner or later. For everyones sake it should be sooner
Kind of tangential TIL: Toyota sells 3x more bZ4X in US(18k/yr) than all Tesla models combined in Japan(6k/yr), before counting in Subaru Solterra.
Maybe if their solid state batteries work out? How has that Hail Mary move been going?
Kinda doubt it. They also suffer from large company inertia where their hybrid powertrains gave them a market leadership, similar to German cars and diesel engines, making difficult to pivot to a market where there's much stronger competition and they don't have the crown anymore.
My German EV was introduced a decade ago, and it’s still great!
I think a better comparison is to the Italians.
Stellantis bought up a bunch of iconic brands when they got Chrysler and then integrated a bunch of new technology from Fiat. Since then, they’ve focused on creature comforts and margin expansion, but neglected everything else.
They recently realized their sales projections are headed for a cliff and unceremoniously fired their CEO.
What EV model would that be, out of curiosity? I wasn't aware the Germans were making EVs back then.
BMW i3 came on market in 2013
Or an e-Golf.
Yeah its a mixed bag in germany in my eyes. All of the big brands have a real electric platform minus BMW. 800V isnt pioneered with them either.
VDA is pressuring for HVO100 bs. Mercedes just pulled back on the electric only strategy. I guess they figured that most of the added value is with the batteries and being deeply integrated there and thats not really their cup of tea, so far at least.
There where Taycans for 30k$ which was a real great deal if your the second buyer and not the first.
On the other hand the id family looks ok, facelift good. The a6 is pricey at 100k but is the first really capable german highway ev, not as premature as the eqs…
What’s wrong with BMW’s platform?
The technology (e.g. heat pump, carbon fiber/aluminum body), user interface and fuel economy (not range) of my old i3 are all competitive with the 2022-2024 EVs I’ve driven.
Unless they somehow regressed 10 years, the only obvious problem with the new BMW EVs is that none offer a third row.
I dislike the cardan tunnel of the shared ICE/BEV platform if you look at eg the i4. It exacerbates the problem of all (aerodinammically efficient) BEVs with a low roof line: blood flow problems due to hip impingement is bound to happen due to the "head between knees" sitting position in the back.
My main gripe is no 800V, it would be a sane travel car with that.
No frunk to store the possibly wet and dirty ac cable. Yes they exist on the aftermarket but the car is a premium product, one shouldn't have to deal with this.
My personal EV tech goal/dream is 400km range in between 20-80% SOC, chargeable in <20 minutes. Ideally as a worst case ie cold outside -5C, 140kmh avg. And the whole package affordable: <50k new, ideally even <30k. Let's hope we'll see this kind of volume model sooner rather than later. My hope is that it could significantly improve the QOL for many people in cities worldwide and help further build out renewables by offering grid stabilization while not in use (this dream unfortunately requires ~100kwh, which will result in a >2t vehicle so tire rub will probably increase slightly, though i think its a worthwile trade off). So i guess my last gripe is price, yes its a premium product but the production complexity and price should go down vs BEVs...
i3 is fugly as hell and not many bought it.
Hey now, the i3’s already a museum piece!
The i8 was also a special snowflake (hybrid supercar with wing doors and questionable transmission), but what about the i4, i7 and iX?
They all look extremely competitive.
An off lease A6 in a couple years will probably be a great deal.
Probably the most influential vehicle in the last century along the Model S.
Also, the minvan (suv), and probably other body styles. When were pickup trucks introduced?
Early 1900s
Did ones with modern body style arrive before or after 1925 though?
Last sliding window century?
Yes, otherwise none can match the Model T under some "most influential" umbrella.
I agree it was somewhat confusing taking a "sliding" century as to mean century, should've said something else.
the definition of century would have have to include the release date of the prius and the model s, hope this helps
[dead]
Toyota explicitly stated that the hybrid strategy spreads the lithium out to more cars, increasing fuel economy across the fleet.
Tesla's 800hp super cars aren't green and never were. They consume lithium to such a degree that they are, maybe even worse in the long run.
Using 800 horses to transport one human never could be efficient, no matter the technology.
800 horse Teslas overtaking narative as "green", "environmental", "eco friednly" is a true sleight of hand from the marketing department.
Spoke like a true oil industry executive
The argument still works for another 10 year cycle. Hybrids are not the enemy. Pure ICEs are.
Hybrids (well phevs) can deliver huge % of electrification and efficiency while transitioning older, dumber, and more conservative drivers to EVs, home charging, without having to plan
As to the article, I don't think they were influential enough. This obviously wouldn't have happened with the Bush administration, but maybe in some parallel world where Gore when the election, we might have gotten a mandate that all consumer vehicles needed to be hybrids or phevs within 10 years.
The amount of gas that would have saved, The amount of development it would had on batteries and electric drivetrains, would have further paved the way for decarbonization.
Why semis did not become hybrids is beyond me. The electric drivetrain provides so much more torque and smooth acceleration, while providing obviously regenerative braking.
A few hanging chads really changed the course of the western world in... 2000 I think.
The lithium isn’t consumed.
[dead]
It's difficult to overstate how ground breaking Prius was when it came out; arguably more surprising than Tesla's success and paradigm shift. Before Prius came out, people questioned whether it was even physically possible to have a any working hybrid system in a commercial car, let alone a non-serial hybrid system. At least Tesla had seen working prior art in commercial EVs (albeit far less famed than Tesla).
Toyota was mocked in recent years for not going head-first into EVs. As the EVs are becoming less popular and the geopolitics of battery and raw materials escalates, Toyota is having the last laugh.
Plug in hybrids really remain the sweet spot for usability.
If you can cover the 50 mile typical commute round trip range on grid electric and then switch to the ICE for longer trips, that's a lot more practical. It's like having the best of both worlds.
Yes, you sacrifice in weight and complexity, but Toyota has absolutely mastered this design and their reliability is great.
I needed a new car in 2015. A difficult decision for me, since basically every manufacturer sells cars that have four wheels and an engine, and I wasn't sure what I wanted / needed beyond that.
A friend had bought a used Prius and loved it, so I did some research and decided it would be a good choice. Thus I ended up with a car that has four wheels and two engines.
(It only has around 48K miles, have replaced brakes once and regular battery twice, otherwise no problems. And routinely get at least 40mpg.)
My aunt bought one of the first ones. It was the first time I experienced a car driving fully silent, creeping up the driveway. Was pretty surreal at the time.
I hated the original Prius. It had no right to call itself a "hybrid". It had one source of power: gasoline. This seriously confused the market and the press when the Volt -- a true Hybrid with electric and gas -- came out. I wish regulators defined the word "Hybrid" and limitied its use in marketing.
Family Guy got the meaning of "Prius--and the type of self-righteous person who drove it--exactly right.
I got my a prius in jan 2001. It was $18K and got 45-ish mpg despite that I didn't do anything to try to maximize my mileage. My previous car was a manual Sentra SE-R two door. Despite being a smaller car, it got about 24 mpg and was a similar price (time adjusted). But according to you, those things were not why I bought it, it was because I was self righteous.
Let's say you are right: nobody really cares about the Prius price or technical specs and bought it to be seen. Now imagine someone buying something other than a Prius, say a BMW, or a Lexus, or even a lower end car like a Corolla who might dither over the color or trim package. How much ire do you have for those people being vain in caring what impression their car makes?
If you don't don't care about the non-prius scenario, it means you don't really care about the vanity aspect of car purchasing decision. Inspect what is really driving your resentment.
The other source of energy is kinetic energy. It converts the potential energy of gravity mgh, into electrical energy, back into kinetic energy, 1/2*mv^2.
You only put one energy in, the other source is gravity and recycled kinetic.
Besides hybrid means two motors gas and electric. Not two inputs.
> It had no right to call itself a "hybrid". It had one source of power: gasoline.
That’s the definition of a hybrid.
We have a separate phrase for a hybrid that you can plug in. It’s called a “plug in hybrid”.
I don’t think it seriously confused the market at all.
Let's pretend regenerative braking doesn't exist.
[flagged]
Negative ghostwriter, gasoline may be the only input, but stored inertia is energy too, and it's a hybrid because it has two kinds of motors that work in tandem to increase efficiency, who said hybrid meant two types of fuel?
So does everything. Everything runs off of entropic decay of the universe.
Almost all the power we use is solar (stored energy from the sun). Nuclear is an exception, in that the energy didn't come from Sol, but some other star that went Nova in the ancient past.
Anyway, a Prius was a "hybrid" in the same sense as previous gas-electric cars and is the same nomenclature used for diesel trains with electric drive.
It seems strange to die on a semantic hill while calling others self-righteous.
fortran77 never has a second cup of gasoline at home.
Huh? It’s a hybrid, by definition, always has been. What is it exactly that you think confused the market?
[flagged]
Yes, the word “hybrid” itself doesn’t say anything about the power source. Maybe you’re thinking of “plug-in hybrid”?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
You have repeatedly stated this without explanation as to how it supports your position.
A BEV can be charged entirely by a gasoline powered generator, does that mean it simply ceases to be a BEV?
The Toyota Camry Hybrid transfored the way I automobile.
A brother recently transferred title of "most dangerous driver in the family" from me to somebody else... so I've got that going for me (plus: have never been pulled over in my re-vamped hybrid lifestyle).
Can you smell the 50mpg+ smug?
> A driver not employing such techniques still can expect fuel economy as high as 4.06 L per 100 km from the latest generation of Prius models.
I think they meant "as low as".
That's high fuel economy, but low fuel consumption.
[dead]
[dead]