> Delta: "The Delta crew on flight 480 continues to follow ATC instruction along its journey from Los Angeles (LAX) to Honolulu (HNL). The flight is en route to HNL with no issue.”
Apparently ATC (Air Traffic Control) was unaware of the TRF (Temporary Flight Restriction) around Vandenburg for launches. Perhaps this will prompt an improvement in communication and cooperation in future.
The ATC was very much aware of the launch in progress[0]. The ATC made a mistake by instructing DL480 to fly a more northern route than the aircrew originally filed.
Um, akshually, I do know about this. I've launched balloons to 100,000', and part of the proper procedure for doing this is to notify ATC. Depending on the type of balloon and equipment, you might have to contact them multiple times during the course of the balloon's flight. At a minimum, it is at launch and once you have it on the ground again. I had to notify when our balloon was above controlled air space on ascent, and then again when it was descending and ETA on re-entering controlled air space. We were near an air force base, and ATC relayed our reports to them as well
Some of the noise is also there in German, cf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergfried (the English page has the same name, but does not mention Burgfried). Just an example, could be very well unrelated.
The comments from the VASAviation video [0] seem to indicate that it wasn’t the DL but instead the WN plane that caused the scrub. The DL was routed north of the zone and the WN was routed south of the zone. The launch path is southerly, so it seems like the WN was the more likely offender, but I guess we won’t know specifically until we hear from the RSO.
Children, influence, perception, politics, ideals, betrayal — all of them are hard topics to talk about and this place is almost certainly not the right place to do so, but perhaps because of that — or perhaps just because — your comment holds a real poignancy for me.
It’s a piece of information that potentially has little to no signal for many people, but for you it is very
real, and that made it real for me. Thank you for sharing.
He may have something like Asperger’s. No diagnosis has ever been provided so it’s all just conjecture.
IIRC he’s self diagnosed.
In any case I’m pretty tired of people making excuses for him based on this claim, as if it’s some sort of get out of jail card only to be played when he faces criticism. I know plenty of people on the spectrum who aren’t acting like Elon.
Why should you or I give the benefit of the doubt to somehow who has been explicitly flirting with white supremacy in his tweets for months?
He gave a Nazi salute. He intended it.
If anyone doubts that, try to do the exact same movement at work this week and attempt to explain to HR you were just showing your love by reaching out your hand from your heart.
According to the article, they were flying the route as directed by air traffic control.
As a pilot, I can tell you that when you're being controlled, the controller takes responsibility for your navigation. This had nothing to do with Delta specifically. Any other pilot flying under the same conditions would have done the same.
If this is what you’re choosing as criteria for never flying Delta I’m going to suggest you never fly out of LAX. Commercial airliners are directed by ATC along defined routes or given headings and altitudes by the ATC.
Just to play devil's advocate for a second, but as a pilot (even a commercial pilot about to be instructed by ATC) are you not still expected to look up conditions in the area of your flight? I would expect NOTAMs to be a part of that check of the conditions. If you know of the restrictions and ATC instructs you into that area, a quick confirm request about the NOTAM conflict does not seem out of place.
Yes & no, definitely more no for practical reasons. Let me explain;
ATC are ultimately expected to know about restrictions and keep traffic away from them.
NOTAM's are a notorious pain point for nearly all pilots. Modern EFB's make that easier, but in the 121 world - the ops folks handle your routing and plan for that stuff - as a pilot you "trust but verify", and most skim through the all the things (routing, fuels, weather, pax/cargo, notams, SIDS/STARS etc) to make sure that the flight is doable, it's doable safely, and it's "legal".
What you're expecting is a pilot to have a read a NOTAM, memorised all the latitude / longitude co-ordinates that are in the NOTAM for the "grid" that's off limits, and the associated altitudes, know exactly where that is in relation to where they are, and then be able to ask ATC about it a few hours into their flight, when the instruction could be as benign as "Delta 100, turn right heading 040".
Chances are the original routing for the flight kept them safely out of the TFR, but the ATC instruction for whatever sent them through it, even briefly. That instruction could've been for any number of reasons, from weather to traffic, to sequencing to even sidestepping a different restriction of some kind.
Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):
To underscore your point, the original flight plan almost certainly did not transit that region. So the pilot likely wouldn’t have even been aware that there’s a TFR somewhere vaguely adjacent to their intended path.
ATC issues minor deviations all the time and for a plethora of reasons as you mentioned. And those instructions are expected to be followed promptly, not “after I’ve spent a half hour re-reviewing hundreds of possible NOTAMs along the new course”.
Sure, of course if ATC tells them to land on a runway that is clearly occupied they have a responsibility to notice this and override.
In this case, they were directed into an area that was not occupied by an authority that controls the region's airspace. They could have asked ATC about it but ATC has control over the airspace.
If ATC put them straight into a Mountain, would it be correct to dutifully fly into it, or would that be an error on the pilot side?
My understanding is that Pilots are also required to review NOTAMs. There are tons of systems and operations with redundancy built in. An error in the primary does not negate an error in the backup. In fact, it is often the only way you learn of errors with the backup.
ATC instruction can be countermanded in the event of gross error or emergency.
That said, ATC instructions are to be followed promptly in the absence of such factors. You don’t get to wait and check hundreds of possible minor and irrelevant NOTAMs to find the before following through on their instruction, on the off chance they’ve completely screwed the pooch and are sending you through a TFR.
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
> Delta: "The Delta crew on flight 480 continues to follow ATC instruction along its journey from Los Angeles (LAX) to Honolulu (HNL). The flight is en route to HNL with no issue.”
Apparently ATC (Air Traffic Control) was unaware of the TRF (Temporary Flight Restriction) around Vandenburg for launches. Perhaps this will prompt an improvement in communication and cooperation in future.
The ATC was very much aware of the launch in progress[0]. The ATC made a mistake by instructing DL480 to fly a more northern route than the aircrew originally filed.
[0]: https://youtu.be/4RMhf0YELrA
I wonder if ATC gets a number to call.
Lmao
It's should not be ATC's responsibility to call anyone with random checks for NOTAMs to issue. If you want a NOTAM, you call ATC.
At least, that's the only way it makes any kind of logical sense.
Grandparent was a joke, when airplane pilots make a mistake. ATC gives them a number to call.
I guess you haven't been much in comment sections under ATC recordings channels, like VASAaviation and such
it's relatively common to see events where pilots mess up (to a dangerous degree), so ATC says "I have a number for you to call"
basic pattern recognition transforms it into a meme catchphrase for the fans for anyone who messes up
Please don't post about things you don't know anything about. The internet is muddled enough as it is.
Um, akshually, I do know about this. I've launched balloons to 100,000', and part of the proper procedure for doing this is to notify ATC. Depending on the type of balloon and equipment, you might have to contact them multiple times during the course of the balloon's flight. At a minimum, it is at launch and once you have it on the ground again. I had to notify when our balloon was above controlled air space on ascent, and then again when it was descending and ETA on re-entering controlled air space. We were near an air force base, and ATC relayed our reports to them as well
BTW, it's written Vandenberg, not Vandenburg as in the article.
The Dutch influence goes far!
Perhaps, but `burg` and `berg` have two different meanings in German as well, so perhaps that is where the noise comes from.
Some of the noise is also there in German, cf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergfried (the English page has the same name, but does not mention Burgfried). Just an example, could be very well unrelated.
The comments from the VASAviation video [0] seem to indicate that it wasn’t the DL but instead the WN plane that caused the scrub. The DL was routed north of the zone and the WN was routed south of the zone. The launch path is southerly, so it seems like the WN was the more likely offender, but I guess we won’t know specifically until we hear from the RSO.
[0] https://youtu.be/4RMhf0YELrA
There's still a lot of disagreement as to the details of this event https://x.com/DJSnM/status/1881114751998279729
[flagged]
Children, influence, perception, politics, ideals, betrayal — all of them are hard topics to talk about and this place is almost certainly not the right place to do so, but perhaps because of that — or perhaps just because — your comment holds a real poignancy for me.
It’s a piece of information that potentially has little to no signal for many people, but for you it is very real, and that made it real for me. Thank you for sharing.
He’s an awkward autistic guy. He does awkward stuff. That’s not him being a Nazi.
He has Asperger's, not Tourette's or full blown Autism.
He may have something like Asperger’s. No diagnosis has ever been provided so it’s all just conjecture. IIRC he’s self diagnosed.
In any case I’m pretty tired of people making excuses for him based on this claim, as if it’s some sort of get out of jail card only to be played when he faces criticism. I know plenty of people on the spectrum who aren’t acting like Elon.
I reviewed the video, and there’s not very much ambiguity.
He pretty clearly deliberately does a Nazi salute, twice.
I think what he was awkwardly going for was “I’m giving my heart to the crowd.” He should have thought about how it would look though.
Why should you or I give the benefit of the doubt to somehow who has been explicitly flirting with white supremacy in his tweets for months?
He gave a Nazi salute. He intended it.
If anyone doubts that, try to do the exact same movement at work this week and attempt to explain to HR you were just showing your love by reaching out your hand from your heart.
Strong 'Dude he's not a nazi, he needs to endorse the final solution for you to call him that. This is just a wild salute' vibes.
That is 100% doing multiple Nazi salutes. Autism isn't 'Tourettes but with Nazi salutes'.
This is slightly poetic after the flights diverted due to the Starship debris the other day.
Also remind me never to fly Delta.
According to the article, they were flying the route as directed by air traffic control.
As a pilot, I can tell you that when you're being controlled, the controller takes responsibility for your navigation. This had nothing to do with Delta specifically. Any other pilot flying under the same conditions would have done the same.
If this is what you’re choosing as criteria for never flying Delta I’m going to suggest you never fly out of LAX. Commercial airliners are directed by ATC along defined routes or given headings and altitudes by the ATC.
Delta seems to have done nothing wrong, they were following incorrect instructions from air traffic control.
Just to play devil's advocate for a second, but as a pilot (even a commercial pilot about to be instructed by ATC) are you not still expected to look up conditions in the area of your flight? I would expect NOTAMs to be a part of that check of the conditions. If you know of the restrictions and ATC instructs you into that area, a quick confirm request about the NOTAM conflict does not seem out of place.
Yes & no, definitely more no for practical reasons. Let me explain;
ATC are ultimately expected to know about restrictions and keep traffic away from them.
NOTAM's are a notorious pain point for nearly all pilots. Modern EFB's make that easier, but in the 121 world - the ops folks handle your routing and plan for that stuff - as a pilot you "trust but verify", and most skim through the all the things (routing, fuels, weather, pax/cargo, notams, SIDS/STARS etc) to make sure that the flight is doable, it's doable safely, and it's "legal".
What you're expecting is a pilot to have a read a NOTAM, memorised all the latitude / longitude co-ordinates that are in the NOTAM for the "grid" that's off limits, and the associated altitudes, know exactly where that is in relation to where they are, and then be able to ask ATC about it a few hours into their flight, when the instruction could be as benign as "Delta 100, turn right heading 040".
Chances are the original routing for the flight kept them safely out of the TFR, but the ATC instruction for whatever sent them through it, even briefly. That instruction could've been for any number of reasons, from weather to traffic, to sequencing to even sidestepping a different restriction of some kind.
Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):
To underscore your point, the original flight plan almost certainly did not transit that region. So the pilot likely wouldn’t have even been aware that there’s a TFR somewhere vaguely adjacent to their intended path.
ATC issues minor deviations all the time and for a plethora of reasons as you mentioned. And those instructions are expected to be followed promptly, not “after I’ve spent a half hour re-reviewing hundreds of possible NOTAMs along the new course”.
> Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):
2411 sticks out from the datestamp, so no, not this one unless the news article is 2 months late.
There is usually a difference between 'did nothing wrong' and primary responsibility.
Sure, of course if ATC tells them to land on a runway that is clearly occupied they have a responsibility to notice this and override.
In this case, they were directed into an area that was not occupied by an authority that controls the region's airspace. They could have asked ATC about it but ATC has control over the airspace.
In this case, DAL neither did anything wrong nor bears any responsibility.
They were being controlled by ATC, ATC told them where to fly. ATC erred.
If ATC put them straight into a Mountain, would it be correct to dutifully fly into it, or would that be an error on the pilot side?
My understanding is that Pilots are also required to review NOTAMs. There are tons of systems and operations with redundancy built in. An error in the primary does not negate an error in the backup. In fact, it is often the only way you learn of errors with the backup.
ATC instruction can be countermanded in the event of gross error or emergency.
That said, ATC instructions are to be followed promptly in the absence of such factors. You don’t get to wait and check hundreds of possible minor and irrelevant NOTAMs to find the before following through on their instruction, on the off chance they’ve completely screwed the pooch and are sending you through a TFR.
Delta is like the single decent airline in the US.
From the article, Delta pilots were following air traffic control directions.
[flagged]
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I can assure you I’m a plain idiot, not the idiot savant.
Interesting.