This has been going on for years. I used to do a lot of iOS development, and have an eye for bugs. Almost every Apple app/service has been regressing in quality.
Take basic functionality - a phone app (calling). After certain audio sessions use (calling via WhatsApp) I can’t make regular calls over cellular - the UI app immediately cancels the call. Only reboot helps.
Or notes - for many years/iOS versions, they lived with a bug where a text note may just become blank - and only restarting Notes app makes it visible again.
Or AppStore - if an app has to be updated (I have auto updates off) - and I press Update - it gets downloaded, installed - and then AppStore is back to showing “Update” button! If you just go to the app, it’s a new version. But if you press that “Update”, it will redo update from scratch.
Sometimes I’m so frustrated, and thinking of my options - it’s either move to Android, or go get hired at Apple with a mandate to fix bugs in various products… but knowing Apple secrecy culture/silos, it’s not going to work, and requires change in their hiring process/perf review/QA.
The article makes some great points about how iOS software is regressing, but it still feels so much better than almost any other software I use on a daily basis.
I’ve only ever noticed maybe like a few actually bothersome bugs in the however many years I’ve been using iPhones which is pretty impressive.
Anyway, hope they get it together. Performance and optimization are a very difficult and very thankless job that might not get you promoted the same way cool sexy feature work does. Such is corporate life I guess.
That's extremely serious because the call you're trying to make could be an emergency call. A bug like that would have top priority in the org I used to work in.
If I'd had to guess it cancels the call because there's a crash in a process somewhere. Possibly because of audio handover between apps.
Notes is so bad. Often copy and paste just breaks. It will copy some string of characters from a different part of the note than you selected, until you restart.
Reminders too. For at least 5 years, creating multiple reminders in a certain order will not create multiple reminders, and will just append the text to the end of the first one. Surprise — hope you didn’t set any important reminders in that batch!
And the great thing about their standardization between iOS and macOS code means the exact same bugs exist in both versions. Yay.
> Sometimes I’m so frustrated, and thinking of my options - it’s either move to Android, or go get hired at Apple with a mandate to fix bugs in various products…
Those aren’t options, they’re fantasies. Like dreaming of suing out of existence a company that wronged you, or fixing the world by ruling it, or winning the lottery without playing.
Android isn’t perfect either, it’s a different set of frustrations. And why would Apple ever need to hire you for that specific task, do you really believe there aren’t engineers inside just as frustrated as we are?
The way I see it, the yearly release cycle is to blame. No one inside the company has time to do anything properly anymore. Features are announced and rushed every year, and we’re reaching the point where by the time something which was announced at a WWDC is out of beta, we’re preparing for the next one.
What these companies need to do is slow down and stop chasing every shiny thing. You know, like Apple used to do with macOS. Tim Cook needs to go.
While I agree that it's Tim Cook's responsibility to set the course and influence the culture, I doubt a new CEO will be able to so.
I'm not saying nobody can be like Steve Jobs, but Steve Jobs was an anomaly when it comes to C-Levels, and even when it comes to management in general, at least from reading things like www.folkore.org and interviews with people who worked with him.
And I'm not even talking about talent or vision or whatever, it's just about saying no to pointless features that are there for someone's ego or so that someone can get a promotion.
Tim Cook overrides the advice of high-ranking employees in the name of greed and profit, even when warned such decisions will sour long term relationships.
I’m not saying anyone will be better than Tim Cook, I’m saying he’s actively bad. Will his successor be actively bad too? Maybe, but the sooner we find out, the better.
Back in the 90s, Apple seemed to have a lot of these same problems. Software quality was declining and they had real trouble executing on anything strategic. They aren't there yet, but they certainly seem to be headed down a similar path.
Most consumer electronics companies are like this.
It's not only a yearly release cycle but a Christmas release cycle.
New Shiny Thing has to be in the stores by late November so all development has to be done in August so the factories can start producing the first trial batches.
I never buy products when they are first released.
I prefer to wait at least 3-4 months so that production has had time to tweak all the settings and weed out the funky first component deliveries.
Also the software devs will have fixed the worst bugs by then.
I have been saying this for years: consistent deterioration of ACs/DoDs. There is no limit to scrum and especially the constant refinement to ACs/DoDs.
Yes, you may implement a solution more efficiently by not overengineering it. But at some point constant seek to reduce "complexity" so that more features fit into sprint (funny how story point measure complexity, not time, but sprint is sized in both time and SP capacity) is bound to hit feature completeness. Once you cross over that metaphorical Rubicon it's game over - quality starts to slowly go downhill.
You will not notice it immediately. That edge case that was ignored may not surface for months or years. It may take several idiosyncrasies to line up for a feature to be declared FUBAR. At some point that technical debt does bite you back, but at that point the process (tm) has already optimized away most if not all opportunities for deep refactorings fixing previous rushes to deliver.
> What these companies need to do is slow down and stop chasing every shiny thing
Who is dealing in fantasies now, friend? :)
Apple's software really isn't in crisis. It's just very low quality relative to what people who've written software for a living know to be possible.
But it doesn't matter - Apple is a prestigious jobs guarantee program for rich kids first, entity that delivers value to consumers second.
It's not that they're chasing shiny things. They're cosplaying competence and they genuinely don't know it. They think they're actually competent, elite really, because they attend 'elite' schools, get good grades and go work at the 'best' places.
They have it ingrained in them that anything a poor person says can be disregarded because poor people are losers, because they're poor. They're an unintentional suicide cult. They genuinely don't know it. You can't convince them of anything because they are rich. If you complain - go see a therapist, there's something wrong with you.
You can youtube search Garys Economics. It's a poor kid who slipped into the rich kids club and defected. It's quite eye opening.
I said they need to, not that I think they will. But they have in the past. There is a reason Snow Leopard is still lauded today.
> It's just very low quality relative to what people who've written software for a living know to be possible.
No, it’s low quality relative to what Apple users came to expect. There was a time when “it just works” was an aspirational goal which permeated their decisions and you could see the results.
> Apple is a prestigious jobs guarantee program for rich kids first, entity that delivers value to consumers second.
What a bizarre conspiracy theory. No company gets to that stratospheric level of success by making hiring incompetent rich kids their primary goal.
I moved out of iPhone because of one such thing: the call log can only be 100 items long, like what? The most powerful processor ever, hundreds of GB and i can't see who I called last month?? I was done at that moment.
Current head of Apple hardware is in the line of CEO succession. If he becomes CEO at some point in the future, could he have a positive influence on software culture within Apple?
In my experience, hardware people in the top decision making roles are the cause of degradation of software quality, not the solution. They often don't understand the nature of software and software product management.
I have run into these same issues, it's particularly frustrating once you see a Reddit thread from a couple years ago outlining the exact issue. For a large consumer-focused company like Apple this can only be explained by ignorance.
From a developer perspective many of these inconsistencies are rooting from inconsistent access patterns - operating system (ABI?), applications (ICP?), remote (TCP, HTTP, LDAP, FTP, ...?). All of these are "execution" or "information" but have to be programmed against differently.
3. Paste the text you copied to replace the selected text
Notes will crash. This has been known for years.
Also if you turn off all suggestions in Spotlight on iOS and just use it as an app launcher, it will still take seconds for Spotlight to show you the results. For something that's supposed to be an indexed look up.
I keep annual journals in Notes and I’ve noticed (on iOS) that the keyboard becomes increasingly laggy as the year drags on / as the note length increases. I can only assume they are synchronously flushing the file to disk on the main thread during the keyboard callback handler.
I don’t mean to be rude, but that’s how an iOS intern would implement it.
Select/Copy/Paste has been bad from the start on iOS, another I can’t get over is how the backspace behavior has the absolute worst timings for jumping to words and paragraphs.
>I can’t get over is how the backspace behavior has the absolute worst timings for jumping to words and paragraphs.
I wish they implemented backspace like they do with fine scrubbing on seekbars. i.e. you could move your finger up & down while holding the backspace key to select the granularity of deletion between letters, words and paragraphs.
And the auto complete on proper nouns. I'm typing someone's name and it'll often get corrected and will take more than one attempt for what you actually intended to stick.
No, Ellie isn't a typo and I didn't actually mean Emma.
There are also a bunch little of usability bugs related to selecting, copying and pasting text. The auto-complete has become more adversarial then helpful. There are bugs related to search in pdf documents in safari. There are (or at least were until recently) bugs when searching for settings in the settings app.
Can't think of any more at the top of my head ... it feels a lot like Windows, where there are a bunch of eternal bugs one just sort of knows and works around, even though it's a kind of shitty and occasionally very frustrating experience.
I had an iPhone I was fixing up. I backed up what was necessary, disconnected the old iCloud account, and created a new one to use when updating the OS. I created a spam-blocking address (mailgw) for this account. It created fine and I logged in from the phone without problem. I did the OS update, but then I got a dreaded error that it couldn't log in. I tried to log in with the account on the PC and it has been deleted. Apple deleted the account out from under the phone and now it's iCloud locked, all within less than half an hour. I called but they said I'd have to go to an Apple store and produce the original receipt. If this was really about theft, why couldn't I just regain control from the AppleID that had been logged in for years from the phone? I checked from that account but it had no option to report that the phone was fine. This was a many-year-old phone and the receipt was long gone. So Apple basically bricked the phone, with no recourse. I will never buy an Apple device again.
> Maybe Apple is doing this in an automated way to prevent people using several accounts for storage.
And Apple's attempt to stop people from "stealing" a few dollars a month in storage somehow justifies bricking a $1000 piece of hardware?
Google doesn't care, because Google has WAY better anti-abuse features which cost money and so has weighed the risk of the "Google carelessly wrecks someone's online identity" headline against "someone might squeeze us for an extra 5GB of space."
Yeah personally speaking I created a separate account just for my WhatsApp backup, but once that breached 15GB as well... I caved and bought the 100GB google one plan.
Oh, I am not saying that apple should be able to brick your device if you log in with a throwaway account, I was just wondering why one would bother doing it.
Maybe it does but the poster was still engaging in behavior similar to someone who has stolen the phone. That said, Apple should add some controls that prevent legitimate users from triggering security checks by accident.
Here's my personal canary in the coal mine that something must be fundamentally broken in Apple's software development process:
- on a recent macOS version, right click on the desktop, select 'change wallpaper' => the new settings panel opens
- click on 'Custom Color'
- now hold and drag around the 'color cursor' in the color selection circle for a few seconds
- stop dragging and notice how the color cursor continues jumping around erratically (it's impossible to actually select the exact color you want)
- same thing happens when using the linear slider below the color circle
This bug doesn't lurk deep in some obscure part of the settings panel, it's the only way to change the desktop background color. A QA specialist would stumble over this in 5 minutes of trying to break the app.
I made it a hobby to check this bug after each OS update, it's broken since the new settings panel was introduced in Ventura. As a good citizen I also wrote a Feedback Assistent ticket (FB13805690 - 21-May-2024) with attached screen recordings and all, but of course I could just as well have sent that report into a black hole :)
My indicator for if Apple is for the customer vs for Apple is how macOS 'negotiates' YPbPr instead of RGB for non-Apple branded monitors (some LG monitors also get a pass) which results in worse color quality. I believe this to be carefully engineered to be a plausible bug rather than a real one.
BTW I have found a workaround using BetterDisplay and an EDID override (to more closely match what the monitor is actually telling macOS).
Seconding this. Feels actively anti-user even if this is just a bunch of heuristics that end up choosing the wrong thing. Honestly, why is this not a dropdown?
Related bug: macOS defaults to variable refresh rate when available instead of remembering my choice of 144hz. This is confounded by my hub (Caldigit TS3 Plus), which has trouble with variable refresh rates that result in a black screen.
The cherry on top: either I use a HDMI cable and deal with BetterDisplay forcing RGB to fix YCbCr, or a black screen when using DP through my hub due to the above bug.
Sometimes I wish Apple would get broken up just so macOS could have a chance at getting more love.
It’s very on brand for Apple to remove an option to trigger / customise something that should “just work”.
Example: iCloud Photos syncing is complete crap on macOS. If it has synced recently it’s not going to do it again. So you sit there like an idiot waiting 10 minutes for a photo you just took on your phone e to show up. When a pull to refresh or refresh button would have fixed it.
iCloud Photos syncing is crap on iOS too. iOS will randomly stop uploading photos to the cloud "to optimize performance". Every time something's not uploading, I check my iPhone settings only to find that it's "optimizing performance" again. Even if it's on a full battery and I'm barely even using it. There is no way to turn this off - you have to manually catch it every single time it decides to "optimize performance" and tell it to sync for an hour. If you took enough photos for it to take longer than that hour to upload them all, you'll have to do this multiple times as it goes right back to "optimizing performance" after that hour. Again, there is no way to turn this off.
On mine, Apple TV+ (the official app as well as Safari) will refuse to play 4K through a similar adapter (VMM7100) on an OLED C2 42 from Cable Matters with the latest 120Hz supporting firmware. I assume it is because HDCP is broken. It works fine with the Mac Mini's built in HDMI. Frustratingly there is no great way to debug this, but if you open up Safari and look in the network tab, you can see the resolution of the video being streamed.
Does your adapter work at 120Hz without updating the firmware? If it does, does it support HDCP?
The entire apple monitor settings are just awful. I have a small portable projector which accepts 4k input but just downscales it to 1080p.
I cannot get osx to actually output at 1080p, all it does is output at 4k and scale the result.
The downscaling in the projector adds input lag and just drives me crazy. I really wish they'd just let you control these things rather than poorly guessing.
I didn't know about better display, I guess I should try it and see if it can fix this problem.
Does the 1080p resolution show up if you go to Advanced > Show Resolutions as List and then tick "Show all resolutions" under the list? The resolution you are looking for is probably 1920 x 1080 (low resolution). If you choose a non "low" resolution the OS will output at 4K but scale the UI to the virtual resolution.
I JUST BOUGHT A NEW MONITOR AND WENT DOWN THIS RABBIT HOLE AHHHH Almost returned this perfectly fine monitor thanks to Apple, thank god for BetterDisplay though, actual gem of an app
I ran into this issue with the Sonoma update. My display (4k LG) was negotiating RGB just fine before, but not anymore. The BetterDisplay workaround hasn't worked for me. The poor colors and fuzzy edges around all the text is causing eye strain too. I'm beyond furious.
I used to use an EDID patcher written in Ruby but it stopped working on some version of macOS. Contained in that script is how it patches the EDID data which is what I got to work with BetterDisplay.
FWIW, here's the hacked script[0] which only keeps the EDID data patching part. Be warned it's very hacky with the base64 EDID to be patched hard-coded in line 8 of the script. It prints out the patched EDID base64 which should be entered back into BetterDisplay (which is also where you can get the unpatched base64 EDID).
It depends on the exact meaning of "YCbCr" and the meaning of "RGB". Is it BT.601? BT.709? BT.2020? Adobe RGB? Display P3?
Also extra fun is guaranteed if one end of the video cable is encoding with e.g. BT.601 primaries, while the other end is decoding as e.g. BT.709, or vice versa.
The same thing happens under Linux with some monitors and AMD graphics drivers. A lot of monitors have poor standards compliance (and the standards aren't great either).
My monitor has a strange EDID that requests timings with such short vblank that my GPU doesn't have time to reclock memory between frames, preventing switching to low power modes. But because I use Linux I can supply an EDID with standard timings in software, using the drm.edid_firmwire kernel boot option, which works perfectly. Linux gives you vastly more options for fixing broken things than MacOS.
I think that Apple, perhaps naively, expects display manufacturers to adhere to spec when in reality they often don’t.
Either way macOS has no trouble with my 27” 2560x1440 Asus and Alienware monitors. Both connect with 10bit RGB no problem, at least over USB-C and DisplayPort (haven’t tried HDMI).
macOS really wants to do different things for TVs vs monitors, so if it decides your monitor is a TV for whatever reason, it’ll probably prefer YCbCr and also not offer any HiDPI modes except exactly 2x
2560x1440 is a strong indicator of a monitor, but 4k over HDMI tends to get detected as a TV
I once spent hours trying to find out why apple's font rendering is so atrocious for a 1440p monitor on a m3 macbook air (reddit just keeps telling everyone to get higher resolution screens). Turns out it's related to the color scheme - the colors were fine, but the pixels are somehow located wrong, making everything look super pixelated.
BetterDisplay provided a workaround, but it needs to be selected every time the monitor is hooked up.
(I guess that's normal for Apple stuff nowadays - when I hook up my ipad to my projector, I need to tell it every single time not to use the audio output of the projector, but keep using the bluetooth speaker.)
it's comically bad. the UI is a mess, the search functionality is broken, you can't resize the window horizontally. it's feels like a hello world first project in a new language type of app.
also - it's such a bummer that they have decided to shit the bed so hard on software at a moment when their hardware lineup is arguably at its pinnacle. like, the hardware has been firing on all cylinders since M1 but the software degradation is making it less and less pleasant to use.
To be fair, Windows really had the same type of issues going from the old Control Panel to Settings. I still get large delays for some of the screens in Windows Settings.
I think it's pretty crazy how slow a lot of the newer things in Windows 11 are. Explorer is super slow, Settings are slow. Sometimes I think even if I wanted to make things that slow (without using sleep statements), I wouldn't know how do it.
Make opening a settings page require multiple queries to Microsoft servers. That way you get lag with a bonus of variability and in the case of broken wifi, extreme lag as it waits for the connections to time out.
I'm not saying this is what happens. But it's scarily plausible and it really shouldn't be.
Windows 11 is insane to me now. Latest update pressing the button to bring up the power options (power off sleep etc) takes like 1-1.5 seconds from button press for the menu options to come up.
I’m just so done with Windows, it is complete garbage now and I don’t use that term loosely, I’ve been using it since Windows 3.1.
Chrome removed ublock origin for me today and I thought to myself why am I even on this OS anymore? What’s keeping me here? Decided to use the outrage over that to just make a clean break from Windows too.
I installed Ubuntu tonight, but this time I’m sticking with it. It already feels so good to have the software behave in a way that makes sense and isn’t some dark pattern meant to harm me and extract value somehow from me.
It also pisses me off, but I am not paying for Apple prices on personal devices, and since Slackware 2.0 back in 1995, that there is always something that makes me waste weekends on GNU/Linux, so Windows it is.
Ubuntu isn't what it used to be, unfortunately. I'm pretty much in love with Aurora [1] nowadays. It's an immutable distro (for a smartphone-like upgrade experience) based on Fedora and KDE, rock solid, sane defaults, a good selection of dev tools, proper nvidia support if you want it, and it feels really snap!
I already split time. I have an old Dell laptop running Ubuntu that I do a lot of types of dev on plus general browsing (I'm actually on it right now). I use Windows for games and gamedev, though as I use Godot for gamedev I could pretty easily do that on Linux as well.
It's not just the OS itself, where some of the slowness can at least be explained by the silo-ed nature of development and the large amount of moving parts. But even when MS gives a small-ish team free reign and a fresh start, the software is just agonizingly slow and buggy.
The FancyZones "window snap" UI takes upwards of half a second to activate when dragging a window and the Zone Editor is at around 5s. All in all it is only very slightly less buggy than 3rd party tiling WMs like komorebic.
The PowerToysRun utility input is extremely variable, takes between 1 and 20(!) seconds. A lot of the plugins shipped with it simply don't work or have no suggestions/hints once you enter their prefix. The search relies on WindowsSearch, which is about 500x slower than https://github.com/sharkdp/fd and has not improved since Win7. Who cares, nobody ever searches for files, right? As a whole, PTRun is simply worse than https://github.com/Flow-Launcher/Flow.Launcher which uses the same UI kit as far as I can see. WTF?
The most frustrating thing with PowerToys is trying to remap keys (like caps lock to Ctrl). It feels like it's done by intercepting the keypress at runtime in the app rather than being configured at the system level, so if you happen to, say, hit your new Ctrl key when the CPU is pegged, it'll revert back to caps lock and then also get stuck. So you have to go into PowerToys to unbind the key, turn off caps lock, then rebind it.
There's another app that does this in the registry I think, but I keep forgetting the name of it.
I fix this by going into task manager and viciously force quitting any system process that has an enigmatic name or isn't plainly doing something I want to happen. Often it's updating Edge, or it might be indexing temp files for searching with the shitty search function that I don't use. Sometimes it's "Windows Problem Reporting" that's making things glitch and lag. Oh, sometimes there's a whole second copy of Explorer running invisibly, quitting that can help.
I don't know! It's a reckless thing to do, but satisfying. I tend to stick to killing the same relatively small set of processes, really, and have never noticed any ill effects in about a year. If I was less lazy, I'd research them all - but then I'd want to also research how to stop them running in the first place - and in some cases, like Edge, that threatens to be such a mission that I don't want to embark on it. (I have a script that's supposed to uninstall Edge, but I thought I should read and understand it before I run it, and that was months ago and I never did ... so I still have Edge.)
The answer to that is relatively easy, WinUI 3.0 being shoved into Windows, even though UWP has failed to get adoption, after so many reboots even those of us that were deep into it got pissed off and moved elsewhere, leaving the Windows team as the only group of folks still trying to push it.
Go have a tour on Github for the endless collection of issues, some of them 5 years old, when Project Reunion was announced.
The login screen and start menu both require a key press to start the process (enter pin or start typing search term) and both then drop all subsequent keystrokes for an indefinite period until they’ve finished initialising, displaying, and maybe phoning home and loading ads. It’s infuriating. It turns a simple open-loop “press win key, type search term, enter” into “press win key, wait for visual confirmation, type” which adds both computer latency and your own reaction time to the overall time taken.
That’s ok because it’s simple enough to escape SwiftUI. Use SwiftUI for the simple bits and UIKit for the harder parts. It’s not a nice solution, but it works
I consider use of UIViewRepresentable to be a kludge, and basically removing the advantages of SwiftUI.
I know that SwiftUI has some native wrappers, like maps, but the way that SwiftUI works, is so radically different from UIKit, that I think mixing them is problematic.
I mean ok, the old one was already a bit overloaded and unwieldy, so a redesign was probably overdue and Ill give them the benefit of the doubt here but WTF is with the 1-2 second delay when switching between the menus in there?
Are they doing web requests upon opening every settings page or what? This is real amateur hour.
They appear to be launching each settings screen as a separate app and retaining it until Settings is quit. How many resources this requires, or how much this contributes to the lag, I don't know, but...
Open Activity Monitor, and type in System Settings into the search. Then open the Settings app and press the down arrow key through all of the menus. You'll notice that each one of them appears as their own line item in Activity Monitor until you quit Settings, and if you keep going up and down through the menus, it'll (probably) get slower and slower; it seems like there's a memory leak or something going on there, and my hunch is that each old settings menu was thinly wrapped in a SwiftUI view and gets launched as soon as you click its nav item.
SwiftUI is not swift. It's about framework not language. But even that doesn't matter
I think Apple has decent QA for low level stuff (remember how they quietly converted every iphone to APFS and back just to test that it will work later) but bad QA for final GUI.
Most of cocoa/objc stuff was written long ago and back when QA was better. If this was cocoa and objective c today it would be equally buggy.
Could be that nowadays a lot of UI code will probably converge on web-first stuff like React, since it has a larger talent pool, as you said, and is inherently cross platform.
Microsoft's newer apps like Teams are also built in React.
There is no reason for the delay to be more than 100ms. The 1 sec delay must be due to some extremely inefficient lazy init or a bunch of io happening when you switch between screens
We’re (largely) not running OSes from spinning metal anymore, so even if there were some I/O that needs to happen (there shouldn’t be), a second would be an indication that the app was doing it badly. A modern SSD will read multiple gigabytes in a second, if the reads are sequential and you don’t wait for each one to complete before starting another. Unfortunately, we as a species have not figured out the programming tools necessary to make that natural.
I can't repro this on macOS 15.3.1 with an Apple Studio Display. What display are you using? It's likely something related to color space translation.
Edit: Repro-ed using the additional steps you mentioned below. As someone who handles external bug reports and writes them, it's so often the case that there are additional steps or a specific start state required, which both prevents reproducing the bug and narrows the affected user base.
On the most recent episode of ATP podcast, an anonymous person wrote in to say that when they worked at Apple until ~2013, there was effectively no QA team on macOS.
Granted that was over a decade ago, and "no QA team" doesn't mean no testing, but given the numerous bugs in macOS today, and that they almost never get fixed, I'm not surprised.
(FWIW, I do not experience this bug you mentioned)
If you look at the macOS feature history, it's pretty clear that the bulk of the team got shifted to iPhone in 2007 and never really recovered. The widely acknowledged Snow Leopard high water mark happened shortly after.
To be fair, Apple can still pull off the occasional amazing feat of vertical integration -- HDR, APFS, keeping audio latency under control despite the relentless assault of apathy from all directions -- but they never had the same level of consistent drive forward, at least not until a year or two ago when the big push for AI integration started. Apple gets ragged on here, but I think their integration is actually some of the best. They were putting neural cores in chips back when that sort of thing got mocked, not lauded, and every step has been thoughtfully tied in rather than airdropped from a ChatGPT science fair project. But they never got good at building or deploying leading-edge models themselves; I hope they turn it around because this is important.
I wish for snow leopard strategy to be applied to modern scaled operating systems. Let's all agree to spend a year fixing and optimizing rather than making existing functionality worse or launching half baked ideas.
Perhaps I was just lucky, but 10.6.0 was equally stable as 10.5.8 for me. It did improve with time, and there’s little opposition to 10.6.8 being the best OS X release there was (except maybe 10.9.5), but for me at least it was a great OS even at launch.
iOS becomes good a year after release, then Apple stops you from installing stable version, forcing install of unstable version with unwanted features.
Good approach. Sadly, it only lasts a few months before iOS with maximum hardening (lockdown mode + Apple Configurator supervised) falls to another zero day. Then the only option is DFU reinstall, which forces unstable iOS install.
That may be unlikely. Mark Gurman reported recently for Bloomberg News that “people within Apple’s AI division now believe that a true modernized, conversational version of Siri won’t reach consumers until iOS 20 at best in 2027.”
That's a bummer to hear. They have the money to buy talent and they really ought to be able to pull this off inside of 2025. But if there's no will, there's no way.
That sounds prudent. There's no reason for them to continue this embarrassment of cramming the product full of worse-than-useless "AI" features. Wait until you can separate the good from the bad from the ugly and choose to just do it good.
I think they mean, having a whole bunch of people doing end-to-end user-scenario tests all-day - like videogame playtesters - whereas what you’re describing sounds more like SDET work.
I worked at Apple on Mac OS X until 2008. For QA, Bertrand believed in a lightweight touch, with dedicated QA staffing only at the top of the stack (plus a few key places like the filesystem), with the idea that any bugs will bubble up and be found through real-world usage. Most QA was informal, through heavy dogfooding.
You felt a real sense of ownership to the thing that you worked on. You worked hard and fixed bugs because it felt like it mattered, because you thought about how e.g. your mom would end up using the product, and also Steve Jobs would see it, so it had to be great. Also, teams were small. Something would involve only 1-2 people, and then we would look over at Redmond and they'd have dozens of people working on the same thing. The need-to-know secrecy was not just for PR value; it helped keep circles of communication tight, cutting out a lot of noise, so you could just focus. The organization was stable (and relatively flat, around 5 levels from junior engineer to SJ). I think in my 9 years or so there, there were no major reorgs. Avie phased himself out and retired, and Bertrand moved up. The only major disruption was when the iPhone project happened.
Release cycles were annual. Throughout most of the release cycle, it was pretty free up to each team and engineer to decide what to work on and how to prioritize it. Near the end of a release, it would get more and more strict on what you were allowed to change, up to the point where Bertrand sometimes would even ask to see code diffs.
I don't really know what is going on over there now. They have moved to a more agile approach, with more frequent integration checkpoints. In theory this should be better, but I suspect there's less sense of ownership and more of a feeling of a software factory. But it's probably mostly to do with the fact that the systems are way more complex, both the tech and the org, with way more moving parts. Even the programming language itself (Swift) is a moving target. I know (from talking to friends) there's a lot more politics and career-building going on, the kind of corporate douchebaggery that would not have been tolerated under Steve Jobs. People are thinking about RSUs and their promotions, rather than the products.
Ultimately, I think it boils down to this observation by jwz at Netscape, that there's "two kinds of people: those who want to go work for a company to make it successful, and those who want to go work for a successful company." Post-iPhone, Apple has filled up with the latter. A majority of the people at Apple now didn't work there under SJ, and the senior management who did experience that is now aging and retiring. At least from the outside, as a customer and end-user, it feels obvious that the founder-led product-obsessed culture is gone.
The Feedback Assistant issue you mentioned is probably one of the worst aspects of their software ecosystem. I haven't had a response on a single ticket that I've filed in there. It feels like an abandoned program, which is terrible UX considering its purpose.
A few years ago, I filed a Feedback Assistant bug report regarding an issue I was experiencing in Final Cut. In response, I was contacted by Final Cut developers who worked with me to replicate the issue and then shipped a fix.
Just one anecdote, but some reports definitely get looked at.
I had the same happen for a bug that would toggle off "Do not create a new Apple Ad Identifier Code" (or whatever it was called). It meant that even if you explicitly opted out of Apple's Ad tracking, you would get opted back in with almost every iOS update.
I assume this would have landed them in hot waters with EU privacy regulators, so they were very keen to replicate the bug and then have me check if it no longer happened.
On the other hand, the "first screenshot fails to display screenshot preview and doesn't flash the screen" has been in iOS for 3 versions now. I've reported it thrice, and no one has given the tickets a second look, marked it DUPLICATE, or anything. And every time I mention it, at least 3-4 other people comment on also experiencing the bug, so I assume Apple must be pretty aware.
For what its worth, I can't reproduce this on 15.3 (24D60). I don't have a "Custom color" option. I see "Colors" and I click a Plus button to add a new color. Also I have my system connected to a caldigit dock and I'm using a mouse, not the trackpad.
Desktop icons snapping to the grid has been broken forever too. Every once in a while I'll have a space in the "grid" that just won't accept anything to be placed in it.
And god, don't even get me started on how the icons rearrange themselves when you're organizing your home screen / control center. I can't believe they actually shipped it like that and still haven't made it any better.
Can't reproduce. Second one this thread where someone had this error "for years" but I can't reproduce. Smells of a setting that's been migrated for years from an old version, as where I'm writing from is a clean macbook with a clean account (M3, about a year old now).
EDIT: can repro. But it's very important to note: you need to have a color selected already. So select a color with the + sign, close the app, open it, top right click custom color, and then the bug appears, although not like you describe: the color selection is easy, it jumps around for 20ms during dragging.
If this is what we call "low quality" I'm happy to stay on Mac.
Might be a reason why it wasn't fixed if you didn't include that vital step in your repro.
Just tested on M1 Pro, 15.0 (Settings version) on Sonoma.
After initial custom color selection by clicking on the "+" (which works fine) and then reopening the Window to click "Custom Color" and then selecting the color again... it doesn't just jump for 20ms - it goes into full on psychotic flash jump behavior and basically continues to do so hands-off for 5 entire seconds before it stops at a random color.
There is 2 options now:
1) nobody has ever tested this workflow at Apple, automated or not.
2) it was tested and discovered but then pushed into the backlog as non-priority. Here the question arises - for how long?
The bug probably generates zero lost dollars so nobody at Apple cares anymore. THIS is what used to be different.
Successfully reproduced. Rough. Maybe they counted on people bailing out after attempting to trudge through the sloppy mess that is the newish Settings app before they even got to the Change wallpaper section, forgetting that there was another path.
And that also raises a huge issue: The problem isn't just functional defects, but also design defects and regressions. The new Settings panel is pretty much universally hated, from all the feedback I've seen. Apple is spending time dicking around with things that already worked and that will not drive sales through changes... so WTF? This faffing points to a major priority-setting problem within the firm.
Look at the state of Xcode, a tool that's fundamental to the iPhone's appeal. Every developer knows that this thing needs a massive rewrite. The word is that nobody within Apple even understands it thoroughly anymore, so it's way past time to strap it on and build a modern tool from the ground up that's maintainable, instead of slapping band-aids on Project Builder indefinitely. Come on, Apple, you can afford to throw resources at this for a year and just get it DONE.
Meanwhile, Apple is letting open, "urgent" QA personnel requisitions sit unfilled for YEARS. We can all see the results.
Wooow indeed. I was just about to post "can't replicate it", but now I can.
It seems the difference is that with the "custom color" button, Settings applies the colour directly to the background, whereas the plus button at the bottom only applies it when you're done. Applying it directly seems to be computationally expensive (ass various elements of the UI need to figure out whether to render their text in black or white, depending on the colour - would be my guess at least).
Interesting, yeah. It doesn't happen when adding a new color to the "Colours" row at the bottom even though this happens with the same color selection UI widget.
I see this Custom Colour thingie at the top-right corner of the Wallpaper section, above a "Show on all Spaces" checkbox and left of a fairly big representation of the current desktop background.
After a bit of tinkering: this Custom Colour element is replaced with something else depending on the current background mode. If you selected a wallpaper image, it shows the name of the wallpaper. If you select a predefined colour, it shows the name of the color. When adding a custom colour, it will show an interactive element which allows to change the color in place, and that shows the buggy behaviour for me.
Ok, this at least explains why other people don't stumble over this as an obvious bug, I assumed it would be obvious, because the first thing I always do on a new Mac is to customize the background color by right-clicking the desktop, and since that moment I have that buggy Custom Colour element sitting there.
Not a great UX either way though.
PS: ...and now after adding a new custom color via the to bottom row of predefined colors, the bug in the 'Custom Colour' widget is gone and nobody will believe me it was ever there. Great :D
PPS: nope, it's coming back after going through the 'desktop => right-click => change wallpaper...' route again, phew.
I tried it, and apparently if you click if from the "+" button, it works totally okay for this popup and subsequent opening of that custom color popup, BUT, if you close the settings, open them again and press the "Custom Colour" colour directly, you will enter the bugged one.
Closing and reopening Settings seems to be the missed requirement. I'd disagree with the original assertion that a pro tester would find this in five minutes. The steps to repro are not nearly as simple as originally implied. In fact, they are narrow enough that I'm willing to forgive Apple missing it. (Not fixing it, OTOH, after it's been reported...)
Yup, I've been following along and I also finally got the bugged one by: reopening Change Wallpaper after having closed it with a custom color being selected; and then clicking "custom color".
In a way it's a perfect little example of how a bug can seem obscure to some (most) users/developers but seem glaring and unacceptable to a few (the few who happen to use the relevant feature a lot).
If some engineer at Apple ever gets to fixing this, that would make an exceptional story! Really interesting WHY these circumstances exactly lead to the bugged popup, I can't even imagine what's going wrong there.
It is not straightforward – first, you need to choose a custom colour via Wallpaper settings menu Colours section, by clicking on "+" button and choosing any custom colour, THEN, at the top section of this settings menu, a "Custom Colour" box appears with your chosen colour. IF you close the settings, and open them again, clicking on this custom colour will open the bugged popup, where dragging the cursor around is certainly taking more frames that it should, resulting in it lagging crazy
I was able to reproduce this, but only by following your very specific set of instructions. Never in a million years would I have found this on my own.
I wasn’t able to replicate that bug on my Mac, but when I tried to do so I ran into an instance of another bug that has been annoying me for many years: windows that open far away on the screen from where I clicked. Here is where the color picker appeared on my screen after I clicked on the custom color button in the change wallpaper window:
I, and many others in our personal capacity, have been shouting from hn-rooftops how Apple’s software capacity has been in a state of, since a decade or so (or more really) that calling it bad would be an understatement. It’s downright pathetic. It’s disgustingly incompetent. And I haven’t not even started on its services like iCloud. Because those go beyond pathetic.
I mean for god’s sake these morons (yes, “morons”) have not yet figured out how yo sync browser tabs which is something new browsers get right in a few days to few weeks time, and sometimes on top of their incompetently done iCloud and related SDKs.
Apple sometimes comes across as a glasshouse built as marketing, too much money, (sadly) a huge army of fans and loyalist apologists (and not demanding customers), and an absolute lack of decent competition; and the biggest of it — a deliberate attitude of non-openness!
I mean everything Apple is closed! So how can anyone even quantify how bad their iOS is, how smelly their cloud suites are, how ridiculous their security is!! If you can’t see what happens behind a wall and the entity behind that wall has money more than most nations and a PR and tech propaganda machinery rivaling some of “those” nation states, how can you even be sure!
> And I haven’t not even started on its services like iCloud.
I feel like a lot of the Apple issues come from the fact they keep building on top of iCloud. It’s only very recently that people started trusting the sync.
It’s like MS, where anything built on top of sharepoint is going to be garbage.
Mine was horrendous scroll jank in response to a moderate amount of highlighting in Notes. Mfs trying to harness AI and they can’t even render text properly… in 2025.
Ah now it's getting interesting :) So far I could reproduce the issue across several machines, also on new demo machines at the Apple booth of electronic discounters - so I don't think it's something about my configuration, but maybe it has something todo with how I'm using the trackpad (but I'm just sliding around with the right-hand pointer finger).
PS: the mystery might be solved => that buggy 'Custom Colour' UI item only shows up under specific circumstances, which for my specific usage pattern is 'obvious' - see my sister comment for details.
You need to have a color selected to begin with. This bug won't appear when switching from an image/dynamic to color. Only color selected -> close app -> reopen -> top right custom color. But even then, it's a MINOR thing, it doesn't stop me from selecting the right color at all...
Arguably a worse bug in that same panel is how their hyped up live photo desktops don’t work at all and its been that way for years. They all need to be pulled from apples servers that silently time out your download. If you are lucky you can get maybe one or two downloaded.
When you upgrade MacOS 15.3.0 apple automatically enables Apple intelligence and then turns on Apple intelligence reporting (15 min intervals) by default.
You are not prompted or asked to enable.
After disabling Apple Intelligence when you do the next mini update to 15.3.1 Apple intelligence is enabled.
Again no prompt and your previous choice to disable is ignored.
This IMO is a bad sign for Apple software quality. Looks like they are moving to more dark user methods seen in Windows 11.
By "volunteering" your data for third party advertising (...remember, you agreed to Apple's ToS), they get to sell referrals and you get nothing.
Sounds fair?
My main Apple computers predate modern LLMs, and will forever be stuck on Ventura & 10.14. The M4 Mini I just purchased (to replace MacPro5,1) will never go online, and I have physically removed all wireless "features" [why does bluetooth constantly turn itself back on?!] — love the OS (particularly the fluidity of screensavers) but the OS is so enmeshed in wanting to "be helpful" (== I don't want your AI schizo ==) that I won't plan to update any online machines any further than 2023 operating systems (== "pre-AI" ==).
The best news in all this is it may finally push me into running Linux as my main online machine, which I've been putting off for only three decades now (68k->PPC->Intel->Silicone).
I thought only MS was doing that. I have over 25 admin on/off switches for copilot in the M365 ecosystem that were forced ON in the last year. On the power platform- The authorized consent to move data between regions for ai was AUTOMATICALLY set to YES also and it was sending prod data around to read it and give advice. I guess they sneak it in with some EULA update.. When I open tickets I always get sent to the wrong copilot team because they cant keep track of it and I have to go through a forced AI agent before opening tickets also now. The rushed updates broke a lot of their own JS and its been a bad bad year with over 200 hours wasted on this since last year where I normally spend less than 40 hours a year with such nonsense.
> After disabling Apple Intelligence when you do the next mini update to 15.3.1 Apple intelligence is enabled
Lemme list some of my recent nitpicks:
I never used Bluetooth that much because I had no devices either for the phone or tablet, so I kept it disabled. But every major or minor iOS update was turning it on - I ofc understand that some devices may want to reconnect after update. But that doesn't explain why since v18.2.1 it suddenly stays disabled in my case on both devices after update's done.
Then there's iOS ongoing conversation screen that never ever allows me to access springboard when I want e.g. check the notifications. It just constantly pops up like on rubber-band and after few angry swipes, pressing the lock button back and forth finally lets me in. Do I by any chance "hold it wrong"? No idea but widget shouldn't block me from accessing phone - it should allow to swipe up and hide into status bar area.
And the control center changes in the latest iOS: these little widgets are stubborn, reorder themselves, can't change the size and tend to bug out to the point of flying "outside" the grid. It is baffling they managed to finally add icons custom positions on springboard but control center is like beta of the feature that should be here years ago.
Yesterday I've got a homepod mini for all the plugs, switchers and so on. Because for few years iPad cannot be the hub. During initial device asks for few things, like enabling voice recognition, location and then there's Apple Music offer for free for 3 months. I'm not using it and it will rather stay that way but now the offer is permanently presented in both tablet and phone settings right under my account and "family" represented by me and my partner.
After seeing the predatory tactics, dark patterns in last 2 Windows releases (I'll skip Google - because that's their default behavior for years) it seems that Apple too caught the trend. But also quality of the software overall isn't there anymore - no matter which company. Instead we're getting visual changes, or doubtful features that are being forced upon us like this Apple Intelligence or photos scanning.
Set your Mac to English (UK) and Siri to English (US), or the other way around. Then it will complain that Apple Intelligence only works if Siri and your Mac have the same language.
Which is a valid but entirely different complaint from claiming those reports are being sent every 15 minutes. What sense would that even make? They could just log your data anyway without you knowing or providing a setting for it. Why would they make it a toggle for something you need to provide authentication to access?
My current plan is to basically never move on from macOS 14 and perhaps move away from macOS entirely when the time arrives that I’d be forced to upgrade (new hardware needed, etc)
When a new major version of macOS is released
macOS developers seem obsessed with quickly
releasing a new version of their apps that
will only run on the newest operating
system.
From then on any updates and bug fixes are
only available on the latest macOS
If you don't upgrade to the latest and greatest
macOS you are out of luck.
I fear the day when all new apps must target the
M* chip and everyone on the x64 side has a paperweight
This made even worse when Apple dictates when your
computer is no longer allowed to run the latest
and greatest OS¹.
On the Windows side, a majority of applications tend to
work on a wider range of operating systems.
¹ There are various ways of bypassing this and installing the latest
OS in a most unsupported manner.
Bluetooth is also turned on after every OS update. I don't understand why macOS does these. They can't be bugs because they have been around for years.
That they cannot be bugs definitely does not follow. One look at Windows tray icons, monitor recognition, sound volume management, and many other things will tell you that much. Broken since forever. So definitely big companies and tech giants can keep bugs in there for many years. Also note the bugs on iOS described by someone else here in this thread.
I got Homepods for all my rooms. Woops. The unpredictable bad behavior is maddening. All intermittent but frequent problems:
• I ask Homepods to play some music, and music starts playing in another room.
• I ask a room to play something, it says that is not in my library. I ask again. Same response. The problem comes in two flavors: One, I have to power cycle the Homepod to get things to reconnect. Or two, there is a halflife of disconnect where each time I ask there is an independent 1/2 chance of resolving the problem.
• I ask the Homepod to play something in multiple rooms. Some rooms play others don't. Sometimes, one room will start and stop playing randomly. Sometimes all the rooms will start and stop playing randomly.
• I ask a Homepod to play in a Zone. Same issues as asking for multiple rooms explicitly.
• Sometimes paired Homepods will both play, sometimes only one.
• Sometimes Homepods in a pair respond differently. If I carefully ensure only one hears me, it might be the one that starts the music that the other one refuses to do.
I can go on, but my experience is Homepods don't scale. A single pod or pair are much more reliable. Obviously, the more components a system has the greater chance of a problem, but it shouldn't be every day, or multiple times a day, for an integer we normally think of as "small N".
To say my Homepod use has been shaped by these failures is an understatement.
Apple has completely dropped the ball on Homekit. The app interfaces are completely ridiculous. Bad parody of bad app interfaces ridiculous.
That’s really weird, I have HomePods gen 1 & 2 (and a few mini’s) and they’ve worked fine so far. More often than not my room mates are more of a problem than the HomePods. Usually someone will connect their call to a random HomePod, which is usually pretty disconcerting.
I will say though I rarely ask the HomePods themselves to play music and almost always use a phone to start the music. I have ~7 connected around the house. I used a few different voices though so I know which one responded so I know which one to go after if I set a timer, since 3 share an open loft area and for that it can be a bit weird which one gets the request.
I have mostly HomePod Mini pairs, and a couple individual Homepods. I do have quite a few rooms, but my network is solid. Perhaps having a series of wired WiFi repeaters gives Homekit trouble, but nothing else has issues.
> almost always use a phone to start the music
This works better for me too. I still have (much less frequent) trouble casting to some random room's speakers.
But that is cumbersome compared to just asking, especially for multiple rooms. Since "Zones" don't show up in the iOS and macOS volume/speaker-group interfaces at all, as far as I can tell.
And then there is Apple's design choice to only let each room appear in one "Zone". No idea why each zone can't simply be its own set. Leave it up to users to care if two people are fighting over what plays in some joint room - it would be a problem that reflected editable zone definitions, not a bug.
The whole system is inexplicably janky: by design, lack of original effort, subsequent inattention, and bug.
And it’s not just through siri - everything home seems to have a life of its own. It works most of the time, but that, especially at home is not enough.
This is disappointing to hear. I was thinking of getting some HomePods to replace my Sonos system which has got progressively less reliable over the years to the point of being virtually useless now.
Are there any modern home audio setups that connect to streaming services and actually work reliably? At this point I’m thinking of just going back to an iPod and dock like it’s 2006.
It’s not a simple plug in and stream product, but ever since replacing Sonos with Control4 we’ve been incredibly happy. Josh on top of it for voice and it “just works”.
As I said, not a direct comparison, but starting to think consumer level stuff like Sonos and HonePods just doesn’t have the right incentive structure anymore to deliver the level of quality we all seem to be asking for.
If your Sonos speakers are old enough, take a day out and downgrade them all to S1. Just like magic it will all start working like it did the day you got it.
I'm testing out Wiim in a couple rooms as a replacement for Sonos and the initial results have been positive, though I haven't been using them long. So far my biggest complaints are that every model in their lineup has a different protocol compatibility list and that the Spotify integration isn't as well-polished.
Siri/intelligence is disabled through company managed profile.
When there is some noise in the room a popup appears saying "You do not have permissions to use siri".
There is nothing you can do, siri is disabled (can't enable or disable it myself, it's managed) but this stupid popup appears all the time so many times per day.
Here's what I find most puzzling about these things: Apple does amazingly helpful WWDC sessions on how to profile and improve your code, how to prioritize performance...but when it comes to their own apps, it's like they forget everything they know?
Messages on Mac is one of my biggest annoyances. How do you make one of the most used messaging tools and have the keyboard lag so badly while typing - sometimes even skipping typed letters? It's a complete mystery to me.
There's always been a lot of room for them to optimise performance on macOS to a level that they do iOS, but modern Apple basically wants macOS to go away and sees it as more of an annoyance, so they don't spend any time tuning it. Then the elephant in the room is SwiftUI itself, there's a performance cliff there, wherein if you've optimised everything else, you might just hit the brick wall that's the layout engine with no recourse or ability to even peak under the hood. We're at a point now where building a fully native macOS app, with the first-party toolchain, will give you far worse performance (in terms of responsiveness not resource usage) than something like Electron. I have a suspicion teams inside of Apple are also running up against these issues as they start to actually adopt the framework.
A modestly sized list of WiFi networks (30-40 items) slows down and stutters while scrolling on a M4 MBP. SwiftUI is a performance disaster, and I refuse to use it outside of toy single screen projects
Yeah it's in a really bad spot on macOS still, iOS performance is a lot better. I'm sure all of this can be overcome but I'm not certain it's a priority for them.
What sort of citation would you be looking for here? It's generally accepted that it's not a priority for them, the discrepencies in performance and features between UIKit vs AppKit have always existed and are even more pronounced in SwiftUI. Due to how it's used they can't apply the same business model to the mac as they can iOS and therefore can't extract as much value from it, this is reflected in revenue.
I drank the "creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists" kool-aid back in ~2013 sometime, and got myself a first Macbook when I worked at a software startup the first time. While it certainly gave a more "premium" impression in terms of hardware/UI/UX for the first few years, around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.
Even basic UX like "Can still see navigation map on CarPlay when someone calls you" seems to be just not thought of at all, or not being able to move the cursor left/right because the current iPhone keyboard mode only allows number. There are a thousands of these tiny cuts that just makes it such a pain to use daily.
Which is a darn shame, because the hardware is truly amazing, from everything from the displays, to keyboard and trackpads, to the general feeling and the CPU. But the software experience been so shit for the last decade that it's hard to justify going back.
Nothing wrong with the "creating products that prioritize user experience over features" - or more accurately what Jobs said: create products that start with the user experience and the user’s needs first and then work your way to the tech (as far as I remember)
The opposite approach is starting with some tech and then trying to find a use for it, e.g. folding phones, second 1/2 screen on laptop, etc, instead of trying to actually create a usable, quality trackpad for instance.
The critique is still valid: Apple, for their software, seem to not have the same focus on quality as Jobs once insisted on. Their physical products are very much still top notch, and the products on the whole are still developed with this mindset as far as I’m concerned. It’s just the software quality that has taken a hit for some reason.
Can I ask what the fascination with the Apple trackpad is? My other daily driver is a Thinkpad and I actually vastly prefer using the smaller one on it. You're not flinging your wrist across the zipcode and the clicks are more tactile.
It was the first good trackpad that supported gestures that are now common, things like two finger swipe to scroll (inertial scrolling was huge), pinching, two-finger for right click. I still see people using windows laptops with a mouse plugged in because in general windows laptops have touchpads that suck, and it was way more common a decade ago. Innovation in the windows laptop space was adding unusable gimmicks like a scroll stripe or right-click by tapping in a corner. And then apple introduced a haptic trackpad so you can do a tactile click anywhere, none of that bullshit tap to click where you have to keep your hand lifted so you don't accidentally tap on something. And windows laptops are still lagging behind, at least they got rid of buttons and have hinged touchpads, now we wait for them to catch up and add haptics.
The trackpad works extremely great with macos. The acceleration curve, smoothness of scrolling, multi-gesture support that closely matches the UI paradigms, click anywhere and it perfectly registers, etc. It truely is to me the primary pointing device for mac and I immediately bought the external trackpad when trying external keyboards.
But none of that properly transfers to windows, and most of its hardware tweaks become irrelevant. I also didn't mind the Surface laptop trackpads, but vastly prefer a mouse with extra buttons for windows machines TBH (there are a ton of great mice too, so all things considered it's fine that way)
Maybe I should try a Thinkpad but otherwise the Macbook trackpad is the only one that really works for me and doesn't feel awkward. The gestures are right and the feel is right. I agree about size. It could be smaller.
While still anecdotal, I'll give you two data points:
The trackpad on my Thinkpad E495 is hanging and has lost the ability to register clicks, and had been like that after only two years of use. I think the reason is that the whole construction with lots of space is collecting dust. You can use the physical buttons above the pad, and some people like this retro design even, but IMO it's just reducing space and adds a border and height distance for your finger to travel, so arguably outdated and objectively worse.
The Elan trackpad on my Thinkpad x13 gen 2 has been defective from the start and registers palm contact where there is none, with the effect that the touchpad stops responding like every 30s; this is a known defect.
... I'm sorry but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You might prefer a smaller trackpad, but then why? Just increase the sensitivity to reduce your finger movements.
Anyway, Apple's trackpad is good because it perfectly captures intent, whatever the situation and the number of fingers. It's flawless. You got half your palm on the side of the trackpad while writing? Nope, not picked up. You quickly flick with half your palm on there? Boom, got it. Five finger gesture? No prob fam.
...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.
I'm not familiar with all of the trackpad gestures, but that's part of my big frustration with macOS in general - discoverability absolutely sucks. Half of the stuff I need to do is hidden behind a set of arcane keystrokes that I am apparently supposed to memorize.
> ...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't disbelieve you, I just don't even know what you're trying to do. It must be a feature I've never attempted to use.
I just click with two fingers, anywhere. Boom, right click. Didn't even know there was another way.
Everybody has different trackpad habits and they can be hard to put into words. For example, trackpads used to have buttons at the bottom, and you'd naturally use your fingers for pointing, and the thumb for clicking. Now the buttons are gone, and new users click with their index fingers, which can be tiring and inaccurate on some trackpads (especially older/cheaper mechanical ones).
Right-clicking also has a history. Because Mac trackpads only had one button (unlike PC touchpads), the way to right-click was to point with either your index or middle finger (high precision), then put down the other of these two fingers on the trackpad while doing the thumb-click. It will not move the cursor, so there is no loss of precision. At least that's what I did for a long time. (Although I don't lose precision if I hold down two fingers and press with one of them either.)
And it gets more confusing when Apple changes the defaults. They've flip-flopped between touch-to-click and press-to-click at least once. I'm not sure if using the bottom right corner was ever the default for right-clicks? And then they also removed the video clips that taught you some gestures in the system settings. And I think the whole "deep press" gesture is an anti-feature that only confuses people, the dictionary lookup used to be a three-finger tap and that was fine. But the Magic Trackpad 2 needed a headline feature, sigh.
I think people give up too easily when they have to unlearn old habits. I've been using the macbook trackpads for over a decade now and it's more comfortable than a mouse. Just the fact that I can zoom in and freely scroll left and right makes all the difference compared to a mouse, so even when I use an external mouse with the laptop on a stand I reach for the trackpad for the gestures. It's like an extension of my mind at this point. And one technique that is not immediately clear is that to drag things you can click with one finger and drag with another, eg click on the icon with the index finger and then move it with the middle finger, easier than pushing the index finger around while keeping it depressed.
Regarding dragging, macOS also has an "accessibility" option to drag with three fingers. (It used to be a regular trackpad setting.)
It is a rather obscure feature, and yet it has such a dedicated following (me included) that a re-implementation of it was recently merged into libinput. The downside is that tap-and-drag is disabled when three-finger dragging is enabled, which makes it a bit harder to go back and forth across operating systems.
You can also enable tapping (for left and right clicks). If you’re not pushing the trackpad maybe you’ll have less issues with the cursor moving while you do it?
Exactly. They’re complaining about the defaults, yet you’re on Hacker News where most people on here probably have the most cursed settings you can think of.
Worth the purchase price seems wild to me, but I guess things are all relative, have never owned an iPhone either, partly due to price and partly due to inferiority of software. That said, despite flagship folding phones seeming insanely expensive for what they are, they do seem like good and potentially better physical products than the standard static rectangle.
I went back to Linux because I can at least decide when I'm ready for updates that changes my workflow. Neither Windows nor macOS gives me that experience. I wouldn't put Linux on a pedestral when it comes to UX/UI/design, but at least it doesn't rugpull me once a year (or more often with Windows) with forced updates.
As someone who cares deeply about UX that doesn't get in the way and allows professionals to do their work effectively, I'd be a hardcore Apple fanboy if the UX was actually good for that.
> I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
I remember being nagged about upgrading to the latest OS version at least once a day if not more often. Opening my wife's laptop just now, I saw another one of those notifications, begging to update where the only options were "Restart" or "Later".
This is one of my least favorite aspects of modern UI design practices, the user doesn't have any agency. Everything's a choice between "Yes" and "ask again later".
I'm a chronic procrastinator when it comes to updating macOS, and I can confidently say that it asks me about updating _at most_ once a week (if even that), not every day and certainly not multiple times in the same day.
I basically stay on whatever macos version I have until they pull security updates for it. Seems to work alright so far. My last two OSs were mojave and now Sonoma (due to the new mac coming with it) having skipped all the rest including the latest sequoia.
Apple's behavior makes sense when you realize that Apple caters to potential customers more than current ones. Their products are made to demo well to prospective customers. Every Apple product owner/user is inadvertently doing sales demos to onlookers.
I don't, I still use my horrible iPhone 12 Mini for CarPlay. Waiting for it to either get too old to get updates, or for it to break before I move back to Android, I guess.
It is not, Android Auto still shows me the map while there is an incoming call, which CarPlay doesn't, on the same car. CarPlay's "incoming call" widget/popup blocks the entire view, I think Android Auto just displays something in a corner or something.
Yes, I agree. If I'm navigating, then an incoming call shouldn't block the entire screen with the avatar of who is calling, the map has to remain visible at all times. If even one person from Apple would have tested the scenario of "I'm navigating with a map and someone calls me", they'd see how dangerous their current implementation is.
I have had to reject/hang up so many calls because someone calls exactly when I'm trying to figure out where to go by looking at the map. In my mind, what Apple is currently doing should be outright illegal.
> around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.
Honestly, I have difficulty believing someone could find these kinds of issues to be less of a problem on Linux than on Mac
If you haven't tried out the various Linux desktop environments for a long try, give it a try yourself. I'm having a way more stable experience with Gnome than I ever had with Windows or macOS the last decade or so, especially when I can chose when I want to upgrade, and I don't get nagged about it once a day.
But before that, I'd agree with you, it would have be stupid to prefer anything Linux over OSX or Windows, back when they were rock-solid. But today?
I've been using KDE for around a year. It has a few bugs but overall it's much better in my experience than either Windows or macOS. KDE 6.2 and above have been really marvelous — I actually donated $100 (I think) to them because I was really happy with the work they were doing.
KDE actually has working focus stealing prevention!
I used to think these reports were exaggeration until i had to use the apple tv app to watch severance. I am beyond shocked how bad this app is and how every interaction feels like a downer. Buttons miss hover effects, icons are off center by a few pixels. Whole interaction workflows were obviously never tested and just don't work. I hope the explanation is just that the app was outsourced but if this is the level of quality apple works at now, users are doomed. The other issues i see daily are more signs of just stopping to invest any resources whatsoever into base components. I don't understand how google image search can show me faster image results than quicklook from an image that is sitting in my dock on my local hard drive. Or how the finder is unable to browse network drives without freezing, giving up or taking 30 seconds to show thumbnails or even file names.
Yes, my wife recently lost a bunch of files on her iPad. The files just dissapeared and are nowhere to be found. Of course I thought that it must have been a "user error", but some research showed that this a bug that affects a bunch of people [1][2] (might only affect files that you've written into with an apple pencil).
If apple can't even guarantee the users documents, I wonder what else might be wrong.
My work Macbook sometimes drops random characters from the lock screen password input. You hit a key and a black dot does not appear; the password is consequently rejected.
Same. When I boot my computer and reach the password prompt, whatever character I type first inputs two dots, I have to clear those two dots first and type the password again. It is very annoying.
I use a 6-digit PIN to unlock my iPhone. I get it right less than half the time. Often one or two numbers just fail to register. ISTR someone else confirmed this bug.
Wow I've run into this too! I made my own keyboard with custom firmware so I assumed it was from that, but it's been completely reliable outside of the password prompt.
i've got some issues with my older iMac from 2015 after my internal SSD failed and i'm booting from an external that all appear to be software related with little I can do about it as my Mac is out of support, even though these issues must have existed previously, it's so frustrating.
-- On Monterey no disk images will mount and no external drives or SD card. Everything is fine on older versions of OS, some forum posts suggest others with the same issue, but without any resolution. The only way to get DMG images to mount is to use a third party mounter like FastDMG, upgrading to Ventura fixes the issue with Disk images and my SD card, however this is not an officially supported OS for my model, so I have to use OpenCore Legacy patcher to achieve this. External drives still do not mount, the OS just doesn't see them at all, even in the recovery mode for these OS versions However running another MacOS inside Parallels I can access them, so they must be accessible somehow.
-- This is all perhaps caused by my firmware being out of date, i'm running 173.0.0.0 and it should be something like 530.0.0.0, this is updated with the operating system, however it has been found that on custom order macs with SDD's rather than the standard fusion drive, such as mine, the firmware update fails due to it incorrectly looking for a drive via the sata port. Apparently this is fixed on 195.x but you have to open up the iMac and plug in a drive into the Sata port just to get it to do this.
Extremely frustrating considering I paid a lot extra to spec this model up but due to Apple's mistake with the firmware updates (Or other unknown issue) I'm left with these problems. Since the machine is no longer in support, Apple aren't interested in helping.
I think it has more to do with a gradual industry-wide race to the bottom in terms of quality. Reliability, attention to detail, correctness occupy a tiny fraction of the "budget" compared to security, slopping out features, and beating competition to market. I suspect that startup culture being the crucible where a large portion of engineers learned their chops and the massive amount of new blood in the industry who are primarily there for money are the biggest factors.
I concur. To add, I wonder how much of the “old guard” is still at Apple? Apple used to be perfectionistic when it came to software, even during the 1985-1996 interregnum when Steve Jobs was absent. Besides Steve Jobs, Apple also had people like Bruce Tognazzini and Don Norman who cared deeply about usability. When Apple purchased NeXT and built Mac OS X, Apple’s usability focus was married to reliable, stable infrastructure, culminating with Mac OS X Snow Leopard, which I believe was the pinnacle of the Mac experience. (Though I’m partial to the classic Mac OS from a UI point of view, Mac OS X had a better UX due to its stability.)
I suspect a lot of Apple’s decisions in the past decade regarding software is due to an increasing number of Apple employees who are not familiar with the philosophies of 1970s-era Xerox PARC, the classic Mac, NeXT, and Jobs-era Mac OS X. Granted, it’s possible to be too introspective, too focused on the past. Unfortunately Apple’s software is losing its perfectionistic qualities, which has long been the selling point of the Mac compared to Windows and Linux.
I think you have rose colored glasses on. System 7-8 at least were crash proned disasters and the 68K emulator was so bad on the first gen PPC computers you basically had to use SpeedDoubler - a much better third party emulator.
Linux seems like the opposite to me a slow marathon to achieve perfection. With pipewire, systemd and wayland there's less cruft than ever and you get the best out-of-the-box experience since it's inception.
Woah now, saying something positive about systemd will bring a bunch of crusty greybeards out of the woodwork who want their Linux to be as close to BSD4.4 as possible.
Jokes aside, I'm in agreement. Audio was still slightly buggy for me using a Elgato XLR USB interface, but it consistently worked with annoying workarounds. Linux is in a very good place for even normal consumers these days, I'm hoping Valve ends up making SteamOS a generalized gaming platform that will pull more market share away from Windows in that specific niche. I'm so ready.
I have the occasional annoyance like "VLC has choppy audio for a few seconds after I seek," and "Gnome has gone full douchebag with notifications for everything and removing all the settings."
Other than that, though, Ubuntu on any old laptop (expensive thinkpads are my favorite) is my go-to daily driver. Except at work where I'm learning to deal with a (new, shiny, powerful) Macbook that I will use to... connect to a Linux VM because that's the only way to work on our software. Seriously, a whole fleet of zillion dollar macbooks so we can all ssh into beefy VMs to build/test/deploy on Linux.
IT onboarding made a point that if you want to get a Windows laptop and wipe it for Linux, you need permission and a "good reason." How about "this is stupid just let me work on stuff." Of course it's about tech support and security, which is fair enough but I feel like they have it backwards. Support Linux and then require special permission for the $4000 ssh client...
After spending a couple of days with homebrew and building some things natively on aarch64, though, I might make a hobby out of moving stuff local. It really is a beautiful machine.
> a gradual industry-wide race to the bottom in terms of quality
I'm going to disagree. This is a false nostalgia.
15 years ago the market for consumer laptops that were not MacBooks straight up sucked. If you walk into a Best Buy today, almost any laptop you buy is going to blow any laptop from back then out of the water in terms of build quality. And credit where it's due, in no small part it came from playing catch up with Apple.
Perhaps there were peaks and troughs in individual technologies. Late 2000s / early 2010s felt like a good time for operating systems, for instance.
But is everyone forgetting having to navigate through Flash websites and Java Applets using Internet Explorer, for instance?
Also, people are just forgetting. There’s nostalgia in this thread about the iTunes desktop app, for instance. That program has been a pile of trash for as long as I can remember back in the 2000s.
I think there was a sweet spot in the late 2000s and early 2010s, more specifically, the Windows 7 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard eras.
On the Windows side of things, this was when Microsoft got serious about security, with plagued earlier versions of Windows XP (worms were so rampant around 2005) until later service packs helped fix things. Windows 7 was solid and performant. While my favorite version of Windows is 2000, 7 was another high mark for Windows.
Much has been said about Snow Leopard, but it was the pinnacle of Mac OS X, the refinement of an already great OS, Leopard. I would gladly used Snow Leopard today if it weren’t for needing current web browsers and up-to-date security patches.
Even the Web was better back then. By 2008 many mainstays of modern Web life, such as social media and YouTube, were already in existence. Google was excellent. Internet Explorer’s dominance was successfully challenged, and there was an ecosystem of standards-compliant browsers (later IE versions, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera). Web developers were coding to standards instead of only writing for one browser. Yes, ads existed, and there was also malware, but ads were less intrusive, and malware can be avoidable with more careful browsing.
I miss 2009- and 2010-era computing, when Windows and Mac OS X were at their peaks, when the browser ecosystem was diverse, and when many commercial websites like Facebook were still pleasant to use.
Tell that to Dell and their shit trackpads and prone to death battery charging circuits. And the joy of soldered RAM so you cannot upgrade can't be overstated enough.
My take: over success breeds complacency. Apple knows where its money is coming from. It has carved out an extremely hard to establish hardware production chain via iphone and macbooks, and is able to provide a certain consistent level of quality for it. Software is an afterthought, especially for software that is not in service of this primary hardware revenue source. From a business point of view it literally does not make sense for them to do anything differently.
Of course, disruption is always a possibility. Google was the undisputed AI leader for years, but their reputation as a House of Knowledge was overshadowed by their comfort as a search, cloud, and advertisement business. These are steady services that just need to be reliable to remain profitable, no invention required.
For a while I was surprised by Mircrosoft's signs of life around generative AI by the time OpenAI came about, but it seemed to relapse into complacency too.
I honestly believe there is some unstated law of success, I think there is a "ceiling" to success, at which point it becomes impossible to expand. It has something to do with the correlation between success in complexity. As a business grows more successful, it becomes more tied down to various commitments, constraining its ability to innovate without assumptions. There's a limit to what any given entity can handle.
I like this take.
To add to that, it feels that for a company to maintain their software effectively, there needs to be a certain level of cross-departement knowledge, people who can connect the dots between frontend and backend for example, because usually it is in these transitions between two layers that bugs start to form. I feel like this becomes increasingly more difficult in large, complex company's where every departement is self-contained and there is not much vertical movement amongst colleagues, only horizontal. Which makes it really hard to solve issues that are not solely linked to one part of the process. So success doesn't only breed complacency, it decreases the possibility to do cross-departmental work because all the departments become to big to effectively facilitate this.
Anecdotally, Apple Music has deteriorated exponentially for me. iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software, but I can't get reliable use out of Apple Music for the life of me. It _feels_ like a shoddy Electron app. But that's not fair to the actual Electron (or similar) apps that actually work. For all its many design and product flaws, Spotify actually works.
I love that I had to install a shim service [0] with the same ID as Apple Music's since it can't otherwise be turned off, which was causing Apple Music to appear every time I pressed a media key but had no media playing.
That's the kind of shiesty KPI-boosting tactic I'd expect from Windows, not a machine I paid almost $4000 for. Apple comes installed with a ton of irremovable bloatware and somehow gets a pass.
It really is sad how Apple can't keep such a simple app, that has been working more or less flawlessly for the modern history of the company, working correctly. Bugs I've seen include:
- After waking from sleep, the current song plays silent audio (skipping forward and back again kickstarts it to start playing again)
- When streaming with lossless audio, somewhere in the first ten seconds of the song, it'll skip
- Mouseover events don't trigger when scrolling moves an item behind the mouse — you have to get the cursor to leave and reenter the object in question
- Radio stations randomly stop playing sometimes
- And I haven't seen this one in a while, but for a long time, albums in my library would randomly have a song or two split out into its own separate album. So I'd have two of the same album, one with (say) track 5 and the other with tracks 1-4 and 6-10. Deleting and re-adding the albums would at least temporarily fix this.
Apple Music on Mac definitely needs a ground-up rewrite, though I worry it'll lose uncommonly used features, like the ability to upload and stream your own music. I think a lot of Apple Music weirdness is from the fact that it's been built up over the years upon iTunes, which was essentially a completely different product that offered different thing. No one is really buying digital music any more, but they still need to handle everyone's old libraries and purchases, so there's a weird disconnect between your local music library and your cloud Apple Music library. So there are completely separate screens for viewing e.g. an album in your local library versus "in the cloud" even though they're both views for the same content.
Incidentally the iOS Music app has generally been pretty good to me, but starting in the most recent iOS update has been having crashing issues. I'm not sure what exactly causes it, but it's typically when I rearranged the queue then minimize the player to get back to the home/library screen.
The upload-and-stream-your-own-music feature, as handled by the Mac desktop Apple Music app, seems to be 90% bug and 10% working. I can’t imagine a rewrite being worse than the status quo.
Funnily enough that's the one feature that works pretty well for me and is keeping me on Apple Music as opposed to Spotify.
Considering the state of every recently made/"remade" first party Apple app I cannot imagine how horrible the Music app would be after they got done with it.
That feature is the single worst thing Apple has done I have ever encountered: it stole my music library.
At some point when migrating from one Mac to another, it "forgot" which songs were actually mine. It's all Apple Music now. I have songs that the application _knows_ were added to my library in 2003, but for which it steadfastly maintains they're Apple Music downloads. Worse: some songs have been replaced with other recordings. Other are "unavailable" for unexplained reasons.
It really is bad. I mean, the navigation design is bad to start with (just back, no forward? Genres are under Search?), and it’s buggy. It hangs randomly and sometimes it just doesn’t make sound (you had one job!).
My last experience with iTunes was a long long time ago, in the iPod days, when you needed to use it to sync music, but it was a horrible piece of software back then.
It’s more horrible now. Syncing now opens a Finder window with an inconsistent look and feel, and sometimes fails to copy new songs in a synced playlist. The playlist view has the album art taking up half the screen, but there’s no way to shrink that section. And there’s no visual indication for whether shuffle is on - it has no grey box around it when enabled.
I kind of think they made it shitty on purpose to push everyone towards a subscription. Many of these issues apply to locally stored songs and playlists, which is how I use it.
Did you use it on Windows? I never understood the hate for iTunes. It was a dream for someone like me who'd spend hours customizing their library. A far cry from today's software from Apple.
In fact, I was never able to use Apple Music because it handled bad internet atrociously. And last time I checked (2022?) it was still not fixed.
It's not actually Electron; it's a bit of an unholy mishmash of webkit doing layout of things that are sometimes native views with interaction handling that's also a bit of both. It just has many of the same problems that that Electron apps have, which is also why the interactions are so janky.
So it’s like those late 90s ActiveX IE iframes in Windows programs all over again? That sucks. iTunes did seem to have some of it too in the Store section.
> iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software
It used to be the case a long time ago. I think it was decent up to iTunes 5 or 6. They crammed into it iPod apps and stuff, which resulted in a terrible UX. Then came the UI lag.
have you tried their "books"? you cannot search by almost anything! Extra-strangely, selecting book language is macos-only feature!
Does anyone even maintain it?
My main issue with podcast alternatives is that onbe feature I use is walk into a room and ask Siri to play a podcast. That works with Apple but not anything else. What is the latest podcast has to sync across devices.
However any maintainance or search for podcasts is crap with Apple and better elsewhere.
Apple Music, at least when I last used it, could not handle copying podcasts to my old iPod Video - this is now handled in Finder, as best as I can tell. It will copy the tracks, but it doesn't properly flag them as podcasts so if I switch to another track and then go back to the podcast it does not remember my location.
I am not an Apple Music subscriber and don't stream much music besides SomaFM, so I may not be in the norm.
I always have selected on the sidebar Library -> Songs with View -> Column Browser enabled. And I search only using the "Filter" text input on this view. It's as close to how iTunes used to be in the early days of OS X (sans brushed metal).
What I see on the screen is just mostly dense text except the small thumbnail at the top for whatever is currently playing. There is no other related artwork or graphics loaded. I fear once a re-write of this app happens, this view is gone... replaced with lots of fancy graphics and loads of whitespace padding everywhere.
iTunes was such a piece of garbage. It would literally get stuck in a login loop whenever you tried to open it and it was pretty unintuitive design. Apple Music is not perfect but 100x better than iTunes. However, I never bought Macs for Music. It has always just been the most ideal development machine.
I canceled my Apple Music subscription a few years ago after leaving the app open for long times would heat up my computer and use 100% of the cpu. It no longer feels like they have the "it just works" feeling they used to in all of their software.
I have a consistently reproducible, if edge-case crash in Apple Music for at least a couple years now. I host a DAAP server (using the OwnTone software) to listen to my music with using Apple Music. It doesn't happen with a freshly-opened Music instance, but if it's been open for a while, then I pause, then restart the server instance, Apple Music crashes. I've reported every crash with a copy/paste of the repro steps in the comment.
It's a bit hit and miss for sure. If you turn off the subscription and Apple Music portal stuff it works fine though. I use it with a cable to sync to my iPhone with offline files I ripped with XLD from CDs. It's all the network crap that breaks it.
what is Music doing to you? Other than being slow to launch I really don't have any issue. I have made multiple lists and use it daily to listen to music. I don't recall it crashing in recent memory or not doing what I expect? Tbf, I currate my own music and lists and don't use the streaming a lot. Occasionally I use the station feature I guess, and it's passable. I'm certainly no power user though.
I use Apple Music on my Windows work computer and it's pretty good. I still have iTunes on my home Windows PC (I use it for ripping CDs) and it takes much longer to start.
I own dbPoweramp which I believe uses EAC, but iTunes is just easier (I rip to ALAC) and is good enough. Apple will probably drop support soon, but until then I'll stick with it.
To be fair iTunes had become such a kitchen sync software. The Windows version is universally hated I think, I remember hearing jokes about iTunes on regular TV talk shows.
Ah, you know, now that I think of it, Apple Music has this pretty bad bug where after a couple of hours of playing music my playlist will stop playing and nothing I do will make the playlist usable again. This never happened in iTunes.
> iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software
Excuse me?
iTunes was IMO always bad. I will grant that the Mac desktop version of Apple Music is possibly even worse than iTunes ever was, though.
(This is slightly off topic, but I find it both amusing and rather infuriating that the iCloud payment system doesn’t accept Apple Pay. Oddly, it seems to accept PayPay. Really, just about everything involving the account and payment system in iCloud and Apple Music is awful.)
Apple Music is basically the same as an Electron app. But it uses a native framework and
technology and Apple’s markup language for the views - Apple Markup Language
The experience of browsing the iTunes store is laughably bad...
The back button that goes back multiple steps while losing context of stuff you had clicked in between, the way the search box is in a whole other part of the UI and it has a three mode toggle. The way that clearing the search phrase does a new search for "".
The other day I bought an album on Bandcamp and imported it. Music app adds a "show complete album" link when I view the album in my library. Instead of doing anything useful this link clicks through to a whole different album in the iTunes store.
Or yesterday I browsed to "Joni Mitchell" and got some kind of curated homepage for the artist with background image art etc. The albums are grouped under a series of headings ("60s/70s" and "80s/90s") that don't include all her albums. There's no way to 'view all'.
You literally can't reach say "Blue" without going back out and searching for it explicitly.
Just idiotic and broken features left right and centre.
I have a feeling that user testing just gets completely avoided.
One thing which bugs me since the last redesign of the horrible apple photos app, is that they changed its order of showing picture?!
After going on a trip, i like creating a album and sharing it with my family, I also put there some comments, and try to turn it into a story. I believe this is what an album is supposed to do, tell a story.
Therefore rendering the pictures by default from oldest picture to the newest one is very important.
This however did not fit properly into the new design of the Photos app, as they changed it to `Date added`.
Whatever that means, at the end of the day, it starts showing pictures from the newest one, to the oldest one. Which means it’s the opposite way. Think about watching a movie backwards…
Man every time I read someone complaining about the new photos app it feels like they never even tried looking for a solution. "It changed, so it's broken."
1. Open shared album
2. Tap "Sort" button in the bottom left corner
3. Select "Sort by oldest first"
I don't know if they could have done it any simpler than this.
I use Apple M1 in my work, and comparing to a PC, it has really good performance. I would blame Apple for a lot, but not for the performance. Namely, for:
- lack of repair support (either you pay through your nose for the screen replacement or you'll get a nasty stripe on second-hand screen that has been fitted into your machine)
- unrepairable devices (e.g. split Hard Disk chips to not be removable)
- artifically non-inclusive ecosystem that refuses e.g. Bluetooth file transfers from Android device
I think a major part of the problem is Apple's attitude towards bug reports: they basically DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU. Which means that rare bugs go unnoticed and get swept under the rug.
I know that it's difficult to triage and process bug reports at scale, but I guess that's where some of those hundreds of billions of dollars could be put to good use.
This rings so completely true to me. Every time I notice a reproducible bug and try to report it to Apple I'm stunned by how difficult they make the process. Even reporting something as basic as incorrectly transcribed podcasts is an awful experience.
Triaging and categorising bug reports at scale really feels like something LLMs should be able to assist with significantly.
The quality crisis is systemic throughout the whole economy. So many fields are getting more disorganised, messy and chaotic.
On the one hand things are moving faster, doing more with less, being more responsive etc. But this comes at the expense of quality and long-term reliability / support. Applies to hardware too.
It seems to me like the iPad in particular has the worst software quality. Not that iOS on the iPhone is perfect, but it really seems like their workflow is to build for the phone first, then hammer it in place to work on the iPad as an afterthought.
There's so much basic stuff that doesn't work, like if you pull out the keyboard into its split mode, it constantly covers the text input that you're typing in - even in Apple's own apps. The split keyboard may as well not exist for how impossible it is to use.
But there's also just been a lot of usability issues seeping into iOS over time in general. Like those text effects they added in the latest iOS update that constantly force their way onto my messages when I don't want them. And more recently, the "recent emojis" tab doesn't update to my recently used emojis. I think it's been stuck on whatever were my recent emojis were when I did the last iOS update.
I recently got an M4 Mac Mini which is an amazing piece of hardware. (When it came in the mail I couldn't believe it could fit in the small box it was in!)
My wife was angry about the large volume of advertising, both on web sites and on the desktop, on the machine out of the box. Part of it was needing an adblocker, which meant switching to Firefox, because installing an adblocker on Safari requires an Apple account which my wife doesn't have and wouldn't want to make.
I was amused that, by default, I got numerous nags in the form of 1999 retreads of the confirm dialog from the 1984 original mac. I'd contrast that to Microsoft's nags which look like a modern HTML-inspired interface [1].
Apple's model of "local account but you get nagged into attaching an Apple account so you can use the store and other services" is inferior, in my mind, to Microsoft's model where you can use use your Microsoft account to log into the desktop and your XBOX and all the services that Microsoft has to offer. I know a lot of people don't like it, but since Microsoft introduced it I've had no trouble authenticating into SMB shares in home and SMB environments.
[1] I won't apologize for thinking that's an advance, particularly since HTML/CSS has been adding things like Flexbox and Grid which are exactly what the doctor ordered for application development.
Yes you still do. Sophisticated companies (Amazon, Google, Meta, many others) will serve ads from the same domains that serve the content you actually want. Pihole can't block the ads without blocking everything. Ad blockers are necessary to block specific pieces of content from amazon.com, youtube.com, etc., while still letting you use the service. It's a constant cat and mouse game, but ublock origin does a good job of staying updated.
Probably not. I don't own one as I'm lazy. I actually paid for AdGuard and use it on my iPhone and iPad. It comes with a mini PiHole implementation built in.
Yeah it's not perfect on iOS but better than maintaining your own stack. Basically it creates a VPN to localhost then proxies the DNS and traffic over that. It only modifies the DNS using a blocklist and passes your normal traffic straight through.
Works well. Even the crappiest nasty sites won't get through it.
> I know a lot of people don't like it, but since Microsoft introduced it I've had no trouble authenticating into SMB shares in home and SMB environments.
Same. I get that people don't like having to "buy" into an ecosystem. But credit where it's due - Microsoft eliminated dozens of different logins over the last decade. If you jump between multiple machines all the time, it's legitimately a decent experience. You can even be simultaneously logged into your personal and work OneDrives at the same time under the same user and everything just pretty much works.
You can log into your Mac and your AppleTV and your iPhone and your iPad and all the services Apple has to offer with your Apple account. How is Microsoft offering the same thing any better?
You can't log into your Mac with your Apple account; you still need a local account created first, and it has its own login and password separate from the Apple ID associated with it (if any).
It's not possible using the current install process, not even on Windows Pro (tested with a fresh install on a notebook that had a Windows 10 Pro OEM license registered/activated like is typical). The various hacks to trick the process don't work anymore.
As someone forced to use a Windows laptop for work with the new job, I've stopped complaining about my Mac. It's so much worse on the other side of the fence...
Working on Windows makes me appreciate the Mac ecosystem so, so, so very much.
Linux is better than Windows on most counts for sure, but I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to use it full-time without making significant concessions on preferences about how desktop environment stuff works. If you’re someone who grew up on Macs there’s almost nothing in the Linux desktop space that tries to replicate that set of patterns… it’s all Win9X-type taskbar setups, mobile-type setups (GNOME, Pantheon), old niche *nix setups (e.g. WindowMaker), and of course minimal tiling WMs. There’s no clones of Mac OS of any flavor.
I’m proficient with more or less every modern desktop and can get by on any of any of them if I have to, but being happy doing so is another matter.
It's the other way around for me, it's all the concessions I have to make on Mac that make it so annoying. All the defaults I don't like, and the inability to change them or find alternatives like I can on Linux.
> If you’re someone who grew up on Macs there’s almost nothing in the Linux desktop space that tries to replicate that set of patterns… it’s all Win9X-type taskbar setups, mobile-type setups (GNOME, Pantheon), old niche *nix setups (e.g. WindowMaker), and of course minimal tiling WMs. There’s no clones of Mac OS of any flavor.
I know of it but haven’t tried it. It looks kin to minimal tiling WMs like i3, but with a lot of polish applied. It’s nice I’m sure, but it’s not all that Mac-like.
Part of the issue is that people who don’t use Mac’s think it’s only about the looks. The looks are secondary and it’s about all the little pieces of functionality that have been a part of macOS for decades at this point.
Yep. Their tweaked GNOME variant isn’t too bad, but it doesn’t fit the bill much more than vanilla GNOME does. Not that enthusiastic about what I’ve seen of COSMIC so far.
Such a project is something I’ve daydreamed about on many occasions, but the scope is quite daunting, especially if one wants to do it right and e.g. make sure that all core utilities adhere to the HIG and actually populate the global menubar for example.
I "grew up" (from college, before then didn't use computer much) on Linux and I use a Mac at work, it's pretty easy to switch back and forth for me. Just need my tiling WM, my always on screen. I do miss that you could close the laptop lid on Linux without it sleeping. But otherwise, not much complaints either way.
My Mac only sleeps on closing if it’s not plugged in and connected to external monitors. That’s how I would want it to work. How are you wanting it to work? Closing it keeps it on no matter whether it’s plugged in or not?
Gnome is not that different from Mac. You have your Mac-style status bar at the top, dock for apps which you can float or hide, typical window management, etc.
I use GNOME daily on one of my laptops and I don’t agree at all. It has some surface-level similarities, but overall is more comparable to something like iPadOS or Samsung DeX when connected to an external screen+KB+mouse.
The global menubar is the biggest difference, but there’s also a pervasive difference in philosophy throughout the desktop; where macOS will have power user functionality tucked away in a menu or hidden behind a modifier key (progressive disclosure), GNOME will just remove the function altogether.
Pantheon is very similar, except dressed up in an (admittedly pretty) skeumorphic theme that reminds me of OS X 10.9 Mavericks.
That’s not to say it doesn’t have its charms, I use it after all, but it’s not a Mac OS analogue in any way.
The funniest thing for me is that on a Mac you can use EMacs-style motion commands (^A, ^E, ^K, etc) just about anywhere you enter text. No suck luck on Linux which requires using Windows's braindead Home/End buttons outside of the terminal.
> No suck luck on Linux which requires using Windows's braindead Home/End buttons outside of the terminal.
Not really; I have it set up on my box so that I can press Alt + U as a shortcut for home and Alt + O as a shortcut for End (and many other such shortcuts; it's fully customizable), and this works system-wide in every application and even on the raw Linux console without X11/Wayland running.
Got my workchats and email in one virtual desktop, a checkpoint of what I was previously working on in another, YouTube playing music in another. All controllable with hotkeys, with a UI customized down exactly how I want it. And with no fear of an "update" breaking my setup.
I have a windows for work, Mac as a laptop and Linux on my workstation desktop. Windows is by far the worst, I don’t think Linux is vastly superior to Mac, they both have some things they do better than the other. My main issue is arm vs x86.
NixOS, for me. I deal with a lot of wild development environments, so flakes + direnv has probably saved me hundreds of hours and a few system reinstalls.
Nix is also availible for Mac, but I'll warn you that it may ruin Macports and brew for you forever.
Really? I always found Ubuntu to be fantastic. All the third party packages you want just existed for it, loads of bundled stuff, PPAs, plus all the stuff from Debian. And you could pay them not a lot of cash to give you support for it too.
it's fantastic if you're on an LTS version about 2 years after it's released. Again, if you're a email & ebay user you won't notice, because even the in-between non-LTS releases work fine for that.
When you start wanting to replicate experiments, or run software you find on github, then you will learn the pain of ubuntu 20.04. or 22.04. Otherwise you can have the fun experience of most linuxes in the mid to late 90s where you are compiling arbitrary libraries to bootstrap some other library so you can find out where the package you actually want to compile's make file fails at.
Give me a rolling release distro or a source based distro any day.
ninja: all of this should be read as me saying:
"Why yes, i do in fact have several machines and VMs of ubuntu server installs, ranging all the way from 16.04 to 24.04; because that's the only way i can guarantee i can run any software posted on the internet."
You have to pay me to run Windows bare metal. The user experience is terrible and of the lowest quality compared to Mac OS and Linux. Even Windows OS 11 IoT LTSC requires work around to not create a Microsoft account, and this is their embedded solution.
Last week I spent a whole day trying to resurrect a Windows 10 IoT LTSC because of a corrupt WMI repository. It crashed out software and to the client it looks like our software is bad where it is the OS that is bad. Client's automation was down until a replacement was sent out and installed.
I've had to implement number of software changes because of buggy Windows drivers. From Intel NICs to touch screen HID messaging. Microsoft talks about backwards capability but it is subjective and only truly bound to the most used applications. Enabling tablet mode on Windows will break their API.
There has never been a Linux system I couldn't resurrect and keep working. With Windows, it is always re-install the OS and all applications. Even the laptop I'm writing this on is the same OS installation that has passed between 4 different computers. You cannot get that quality of OS installation from Microsoft.
Took me a month to convince IT to reinstall Windows on my work laptop. Microsoft's update broke the QA VM environment and would freeze with an infinite loop. Uninstalling the update nor repairing the OS did anything to fix their issues.
Even today I experienced Ctrl+X is broken and does not work in Visual Studio for the git comment text box entry.
I doubt it’s a target unless someone was actively profiling the company in question, building out a plan, and seeking to actively exploit the company’s network from that machine. Even then, how many attackers know IRIX well enough to pull it off?
If we were talking about a networked DOS machine, Windows XP, or even classic MacOS this lack of updates would be more serious… but niche UNIX workstations? Not as certain they’re still targets.
It definitely wasn't! I remember the irix 5.x and earlier days. By default, it shipped without any X11 authentication enabled. This meant everyone on the network could keylog your machine.
For me the biggest gripe is that I cannot configure it as I want and that it assumes I'm computer-illiterate. On top of that a lot of the approaches chosen by Apple regarding e.g. the UI are simply counterintuitive to me.
I still prefer it to Windows but (at least for me) it is inferior to a properly setup Linux box with stuff like a titling WM. But if I would to recommend someone a computer just for browsing, email, etc. then a Mac would be my top choice.
I agree, but my M1 MacBook work laptop is by far the fastest dev machine I've ever laid hands on. It struggles a bit from the UX standpoint, two things:
1. I have the same desktop layout every time, from left to right: slack desktop app, a two column wide emacs window, a 90col wide terminal. I also have two chrome windows--1 which is the same width as the slack window and overlays it, and another the same width as the emacs window which overlays that one. The problem is every single time I wake my laptop from sleep the terminal window has shrunk to fewer columns and I have to drag it back to full width.
2. Sometimes the external monitor support bugs out. I don't know if that's my hub ("pluggable" something or other) or the OS or both.
Then of course there's all the warts of homebrew, and the fact that it's not easy to build some software..
However, the performance of the Apple silicon is nothing short of astonishing. I'm curious about the AMD chips that ship in the new Framework as I look towards an upgrade to my personal laptop, but it's basically between that and a new M4 Max Macbook. Never thought I'd see the day.. will probably wait a year or so before deciding but it's interesting that Apple is even a contender.
My favorite is how when I close my macbook with an external display plugged in, the laptop screen remains on (and lit up!) with seemingly no way to configure this behavior. Sometimes a window will end up on that (non-visible) screen which can be very confusing.
That seems like a misconfig or a broken lid sensor or something. I’ve been using MacBooks with a single external monitor as my only display (MacBook closed) for over a decade and I’ve never had the laptop display stay on when closed with an external display. Maybe time to visit the Genius Bar?
For the 1st point, I struggled with the same, then a short applescript thanks to claude, attached to a keyboard shortcut on karabiner solved the painpoint. There's also an app called Stay which should do something similar with a ui, but my solution is good enough for me at this point.
I'm curious about your dock/hub. There's a good chance I just ordered the same one as I try to build a more sophisticated home station. Which one and how does it bug out?
Pluggable TBT3-UDC3, input freezes and screen goes all pschedelic with greens and violets and then patterns and lines as everything melts to white noise. Flipping the lid open and closed and/or unplugging the thunderbolt cable and plugging it back in again repeatedly seems to cool the vibes
Linux makes you use the terminal and read manuals and edit configs to accomplish the most basic tasks. At least neither Windows nor macOS need that. Linux is fine for servers, but I can't fathom using that on my actual computer.
I prefer config files a lot to settings GUIs. Two most important points that come to mind:
1. I can manage them in Git
2. GUIs change all the time. With configs you have a much higher probability that some solution you googled will still work even when it is a couple of years old.
As someone who works on both I don't notice a difference. Mac sucks just as much as Windows (or visa versa). There's things each does better and things each does worse.
Once people start saying "forced to use [...] for work" you've got to analyse platforms from a different angle.
Namely: How good is this platform after Corporate IT cheaps out on hardware, and loads as much 'security' crapware as possible?
On Windows, there are incredibly cheap laptops available, and corporate IT has loads of crapware like antivirus and crowdstrike and profiles and enterprise endpoint management to slow it down.
On Mac, there aren't any cheap hardware options, and there's a medium amount of "security" crapware.
On Linux, corporate IT let you manage it yourself, because they don't know how to. They can't develop the skills either, because anyone who can manage Linux gets promoted out the set-up-new-users-laptops department.
Great point. I use both Mac and windows. Love my windows pc, but I have certainly used corporate windows laptops that make me want to throw them out the window - minutes to boot, minutes to open anything, etc. between Mac and windows, they've each got their pros and cons but nothing that would make me choose one over the other.
The answer with any discussion of this nature is to immediately disregard any and all answer that doesn't come in, unprompted, with an explanation.
Which is about 90% of the comments here. Not a joke. I have counted 18 and see only 2 with specific gripes. Worthless comment section. (Sorry, but I did include yours too)
I was 16 when I first met the first big "Mac is better than Windows" argument in person. I asked why, and they mentioned a number of things that didn't feel relevant to the people at the table, but the one that stood out was a particular feature that was indeed quite useful. Well, I didn't know how to respond at the time, but as soon as I got home, I checked with windows and the feature was right there.
I don't think they were wrong for their preference. In fact, back then there was a lot of major differences in the workflow for these OS that isn't as big nowadays, specially if you're someone who can actually use google for more than 20 seconds. But the interaction proved to me the importance of being able to back your stance, because, if you don't, you may as well be just another 16 year old idiot with 0 technical or practical knowledge of the stuff that dictated your preference. They don't learn how to resolve their problems with them either, if they hide the reasons from others. So, again, worthless - take up screen space that could have better comments, while informing nothing and helping no one.
You alluded to this but I wanted to emphasize that a lot of this is just legacy baggage in terms of reputation that windows will have to carry for a long time
I think that when people talk about how shitty windows is compared to Mac/apple they are talking about stuff that was probably true at some point
For many, memories of using windows include blue screens of death, programs crashing often and windows itself crashing often. On top of that, windows was a cesspool for a hot minute while Microsoft got its act together and put better security in place to address malware as the internet got popular.
These are obviously not the same, not nearly as bad as they were back then
I mostly enjoyed windows, and to a lesser degree Linux until a few years ago when an employer made me switch to Mac - which for the sake of my brain’s plasticity I readily embraced
The main differences I noticed at the time were: a much better window manager, a much saner way of installing applications, an overall hard to explain smoothness along with the ability to bring over some of my favorite little Linux tools
Fast forward to today and it’s really just a matter of preference. Mac helped Linux a ton, but nowadays they are all so customizable that you can more or less achieve what you’re trying to do most of the time on any of them
Today, I use all three out of necessity - Mac and Linux for work, windows for gaming, but I can surely tell you that overall my best decision was to just not get involved in holy wars lol
What did it for me was a period of: “I see you are delivering an important presentation. Let me force install an update and reboot three times. Right now.” I’ve spent too long watching reboots to have Windows in my life for my limited time on the planet.
Yeah one wart about Windows is that you always have to lookup these weird registry hacks after getting a fresh install. Disabling this automatic reboot was one of them. Otherwise that would make your computer completely useless for things like
- gaming
- watching movies
- presentations
- anything where you want to let some calculation run unattended for a few hours
- anything where you really don't want your PC to shut down unexpectedly while you’re working…
Well that covers pretty much everything I guess.
And to add insult to injury, Windows 10 for a while took away the ability to Update & shut down. It’d go into some sort of hybrid sleep so you’d keep getting a reboot prompt right after starting up again.
Damn you're worked up. Some of my gripes with Windows come down to peripherals, where I'll spend a lot of time troubleshooting why my bluetooth device or speakers or mic don't work. There also seems to be no way to bypass using a password or PIN on startup without changing the registry. I'd like my computer to just stay on at all times so I can remotely connect to it, but what do you know, a forced update caused it to restart, and because it requires a passeord to get to the desktop I have no way of getting Parsec to connect. Yeah I tried to disable automatic updates but nothing seems to stick. Why is the mic on my PS5 controller connecting and disconnecting ten times a second. Ok let me just try to unpair the controller, oh it just... won't unpair.
Are the ps5 controllers supported without having to buy software? If not, then I sarcastically say "I'm shocked that a competitor's peripheral works poorly on their product"
Macs come working. When something breaks, it is impossible to fix, because they didn’t include a button to fix it. But it comes working!
Windows PCs come broken out of the box, but the user adapts and eventually gains a pile of workarounds, which is sort of like the windows equivalent of a UX.
Until fairly recently, I would have agreed, but Microsoft is actively enshittifying Windows now by pushing things like cloud-only logins and ads in Start while simultaneously removing configurability (e.g. vertical taskbar was removed in Win11). I'm not a fan of macOS, but at least Apple is not all in on ads the way Microsoft seems to be these days.
This is exactly what happens to me. I get the company laptop, think "maybe Linux isn't that great anymore... how is modern FAANG handling things?"
Then the ads come in, and any of my doubts evaporate instantly. The home PC runs NixOS, it's been that way for 6 years now and it will probably remain that way until the advertising glut is satiated. Even then, it won't be easy getting me to switch away from desktop Linux.
Linux is nice if, like nixos users, you want to spend hundreds of hours over several years writing every QoL feature totally custom for your unique use case.
For me, Mac is 99% of what I liked about Linux, and there is ALWAYS an existing QoL solution—usually reasonably polished—for everything it lacks.
Windows has none of the benefits ofLinux, none of Homebrew or even the AUR, a tiny fraction of the QoL third party features from Mac (usually unpolished)—to say nothing of the first party QoL features—plus the hardware is comically bad. Diving board trackpads are normal on $3k windows machines in 2025, 500nits displays, whistling fans on about 17 high-end laptops I tried in the past 6 months. Truly the worst experience imaginable. Abominable, even.
I've had the same experience. MacOS had lots of features intended to make it friendly for casual users, which made it a pain when you wanted to modify it, but if you wanted to modify something, you generally could; it just took some extra steps compared to Windows 7. By contrast, I spent an hour figuring out how to uninstall Edge on Windows 10 this afternoon, and I suspect it's going to reinstall after the next update like all of the other bloatware did.
With official linux support on Windows, I really love developing on Windows, it's the best of both worlds. Mac on the other hand feels like a second hand citizen to both linux and windows depending on what you're doing.
Any system you have deep knowledge and experience with makes all the others look like garbage, because you don't know the right menus, can't intuit what you are trying to do and don't know the right workarounds/what the designers intended. As someone who uses MacOS, Windows and Linux on the regular, let me just say, uh... man, Solaris is pretty bad!
I helped my little brother put together a gaming PC a few years ago. Before that, I hadn’t even touched a windows computer in a very long time.
I was blown away by how difficult and opaque everything was. I’m sure a lot of it was just unfamiliarity, but a lot of it definitely was not. I actually could not believe how hard of a time I had
Compare the median sale price of a Windows laptop vs Mac. The qualify bar should be significantly higher for anything with an Apple logo on it just to justify the price tag.
I use my mac as a on the go computer for work (it's really light, and proprietary software works always), but I have a linux VM that I sync the needed project on it before I go out. If I have to use containers for extra services (DB,...) I may as well use a VM I can configure as I like.
For many years, Windows has had WSL and now it's the second generation WSL2 and you can run graphical Linux even without a VM. It has a decent package manager out of the box, a great open-source terminal. Containers and VMs are also available out of the box. Windows also has a developers' hub, which allows you to install toolchains easily, including IDEs such as VS Code.
Meanwhile, macOS comes with its own version of CLI tools such as find, which have quite different parameters than Linux, it doesn't have a package manager, when I install an app on my iPhone, it somehow decides that I want to install it on my macOS, too, etc. And I won't even mention how poor the menubar is! I have at least 10 apps I need to install to make macOS usable - PopClip, Moom, Bartender, etc., while the Windows equivalent for things like Dock and menubar are working pretty well, including notifications - I've accidentally have clicked so many times on notification banners, covering my scroll bar or window controls. Not to mention that so many times I'm typing something in window, which has my input focus, then another window pops up, steals my input focus, and I end up trying parts of my password in the wrong window due to that!
There are so many things wrong with macOS, Apple doesn't really care to improve it, and the System Settings is growing out of control! Windows' settings are much better organized!
And, yes, macOS freezes and crashes not less frequently than Windows. In fact, I haven't had any such issues with a heavily constrained Windows 11, running in VMware Fusion!
Also, Windows now has a free equivalent of the paid CleanMyMac app, and it works pretty well. Not to mention the free security software. But even with CleanMyMac, uninstalling software leads to tons of junk all over the place.
I installed windows 11 in a VM on my Linux machine for some testing recently. You still have to agree to allow MS to sell your information about 5 times during setup, and you're rewarded with Candy Crush and Xbox apps in your startup menu. I don't know how people put up with it, honestly.
Professionals don't use the "designed to be cheap for OEMs to license" Windows versions.
A lot of comments are either using home or edu or whatever, or are running in restrictive environments like on a corporate network where your IT department controls everything.
I like Linux. I use mostly Gentoo. I also like BSD but I can never think of anything to use it for. It's so good it's boring, which is great for production, not my favorite to mess around on.
I never really liked Mac OS X. I liked OS7-9, though, even though there was no real multitasking no multi-user.
But my main desktop is Windows on the metal. I ran Windows in a GPU accelerated VM for four years or so, and that was fine too.
I mean.. at least system settings are in one place on OSX instead of scattered between the control panel, new system settings thing, and a few other spots.
The built-in bloatware (LinkedIn, TikTok, Clipchamp, etc.), the constant nagging (like full-screen reminders to buy Office 365 to "protect" your PC), Edge is basically forced on you. MSVC has insane licensing terms — you can’t use it outside of Visual Studio or VS Code, not to mention it's lacking support for C. Windows seems actively user and developer hostile.
Beyond that, Windows' architecture is a mess, I hate it (There's a reason Microsoft has to ship WSL2). macOS runs all of my tools fine, just like Linux does.
I hate Win11. It is horrible, but the first few points don't really make sense. I use it in 2 environments.
- enterprise version: no bloatware, no ads, and edge is there but never has to be used for anything
- professional version: bloatware is uninstalled in like 2min after OS install, another 2min later all ads are disabled. And it usually stays like that after updates too. Edge is never used at all.
Windows architecture is great. the WinAPI is better documented and more comprehensive than anything on Linux or Mac.
There are so many other issues.
- The file explorer gets slower and more broken with each update. context menus randomly don't show, or take literally 30 seconds to load.
- The renderer crashes randomly once a week (it's not a huge issue, but the screen goes black for 10 seconds or so)
- the settings dialog is bad. goes through like 5 different layers of Windows generations and recently makes the old dialogs hard to find but doesn't offer adequate replacements (looking at network and sound)
- and much more...
I uploaded a video because no one can show me this alleged slowness or context menu stuff, it's all "vibes" and it is getting ridiculous on hackernews.
I have a huge problem with windows - some api uses "@" for something, so all my folders with @ in the name(it sorts alphabetically before everything and is easy to type - on macos it's option-8 for similar, Linux I use @ as well) and because of that Windows API most applications crasb if you last saved into a path with @ in it and do file->open. Notepad++, notepad.exe, handbrake, VLC, mplayer, and so on.
Its a frustration, but it is my fault for developing a stupid habit back before metadata or changing colors of folers or what ever exists now to force an arbitrary sort order.
With every Windows release since 8, it feels more and more like the OS is actively antagonistic towards the user. This has come to a peak with Windows 11.
Not too long ago I booted up an old laptop and put a fresh install of Windows 7 on it for kicks. Amazing how much of a breath of fresh air that was.
Not the OP, but one thing I've run into is that I've had three or four Windows installs (both Windows 11 and Windows 10) just fail to upgrade - one of them new upgrades just stopped showing up, I had to install an 'enablement package' and that fixed it but there was literally no warning or instructions of what to do, I just had to Google it when I noticed I wasn't getting updates.
The others just failed with random hexadecimal error codes, again I had to Google to try and work out what was going on.
With one of them I had to use the command line and diskpart etc. to expand the recovery partition because apparently the default size when I'd made that Windows 10 install was no longer big enough, and Windows Update couldn't work this out (the error code from the failure was nondescript, took ages to find out what was actually wrong) and couldn't fix it. Had to do it manually in Powershell.
Another one I think might have fixed by running sfc and dism recovery commands in the command line, again it would be nice if Windows could work this out itself!
To be fair, macOS isn't much better in this regard, the error codes can be quite cryptic, for example what is a -2003F.
For some reason, a game I play called DCS can be buggy and I've been told by the support to sfc /scannow and dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth. For some reason on every install of Windows 11 I've ever done, it always picks up tons of broken files. This is installing using the latest at the time Microsoft ISO. I've had this issue on multiple different systems, a modern gaming pc, a Mac with bootcamp, an older Lenovo M93p and when installing inside VMWare or KVM.
I do get less application and operating system crashes on a Mac though.
Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software.
glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment.
Once upon a time I shipped a popular-ish game with Linux support. 1% of Linux users represented 50% of bug reports. And no it’s not because Linux players were more reliable at reporting Linux issues. It has been a few years, but supporting more than SteamDeck is likely similar. At least for non-proton builds.
I like Portage when it works. When it doesn't, I don't like portage very much.
I'm not sure if you can "alternatives" glibc in Gentoo, but the "whatever .so you have" isn't a thing there, you can slot different versions if you need to.
If I want to test some software I'll use Ubuntu with docker or whatever, but to deploy to production I will make it run on Gentoo. Hell or high water.
Windows software still ships every .dll it needs, unless it is a Microsoft one. Do a search for msvc.dll or whatever sometime and marvel at the pagination.
Does shutup10 allow you to decide which updates (if any) you want to install, uninstall the Microsoft Store (and keep it uninstalled), uninstall Edge (and keep it uninstalled), remove other unwanted bloatware (and keep it removed), control all group policy settings (without having them reverted every time MS feels like it), and receive security update support for several years longer than the retail version?
No?
Well, then, it might be "perfectly fine", but it's not "great."
I would pay a premium for a system that never gets any new features except for bug & security patches.
In fact, that's more or less what iOS was for a long time, and I loved every second of it.
Once you have a good feature set, you can spend years and years ironing out 100% of the bugs and vulnerabilities and you'd build a rabid fanbase of crotchety tech-saturated users like me. I want something that Just Works.
I've been using fundamentally the same Linux setup for over ten years now. I think the biggest change it went through was migrating the audio system to Pipewire, which took about an hour to figure out and hasn't need attention since.
I have no solutions to offer for smartphones sadly.
100%. I'm not OP but have had similar experience. My basic UX hasn't changed beyond trivialities in pretty well over 10 years. Contrast that with SaaS and many modern mobile apps that get completely redesigned every couple of years whether you want them to or not, and you have zero control on even the timing of the update. I've found a lot of refuge in open source as complete redesigns just for the hell of it (or to justify a full-time job) are nearly unheard of, but there are definitely tradeoffs. Usually (though not always!) the UX isn't great, but it will be functional. As a person who prefers function over form (though does harbor an intense appreciate for the latter), this is often a good trade.
Exactly. Fedora on the desktop is wonderful, and on laptop is really good assuming reasonably supported hardware. I have a framework 16 and 13 and both run fedora really well.
My archlinux has moved from a bunch of scripts to just a window manager with Chrome. At the end of the day, you realize you don't really need all these gadgets and notifications but just a terminal and a browser.
SailfishOS is pretty decent on mobile, as in a simple system that moves slowly. You can get support for Android apps with an emulation layer. Even banking apps tend to work well. Sadly, to get a license from the US you'd need a EU IP address.
I have this conversation with my partner quite often. We'd like to use operating systems, software that stays "still" and doesn't break usage workflow every release with changes just for the sake of change. We both think that major commercial operating systems/software is largely feature complete. And everything done nowadays is just for keeping up the "freshness" appearance with all sort of meaningless GUI overhauls or features of doubtful usefulness that marketing branch everywhere pushes.
It really feels like the quality was replaced by... lipstick on a pig. And honestly, I am fed up with all this pandering of the changes as a breakthru, live changing technology.
This has to be related to the curse of "can it scale?" that our industry is in love with. I think it is safe to say that MS Access and related programs were probably already covering a large majority of use cases back when they existed. On modern machines, they could probably cover larger companies better than folks want to admit.
Will they work for the largest companies out there? Of course not. This despite the fact that they probably did help get those companies off the ground.
A side effect of employing tens of thousands of full time people that do product development is that matter how good your product currently is, there is an entire organizational hierarchy that has to justify its existence. The result is that every great product keeps picking up parasitic features and functionality. Intended to add value, but paradoxically removing overall value.
There is a fine line between staying ahead of the competition and enshittification and most companies don't find it.
The most recent examples that come to mind are Spotify and Slack. Products that were, at one time, a pleasure to use, but have since been significantly degraded by a continual assault of minor features and re-working of UI.
Reworked UI's (and also renamed products) are the bane of my tech existence. I think I'm going to learn Emacs, build up the musculature of my C-C and C-X pressing fingers, and live out my days in the terminal.
There's other economics to it at play which you hint at.
The "pay a premium for no new features" tends to imply a "I paid $99.99 for this once, all future updates for bug and security patches are free".
This in turn means that there's no money incoming (especially as the software goes further and further from feature parity with competition) to pay those developers who are doing the bug and security fixes.
While new features can be (often are) buggy, the new features and upgrades that are coupled with the software (and hardware) that have people buy ${new thing} in turn subsidizes the effort to fix ${still supported thing}.
That, and the effects of allowing "new feature demos" at WWDC. The various groups MUST come up with something that demos well. "See how easily I can...", and now the slightest breath does something dramatic, and usually wrong.
One doesn't get credit at a tech company for fixing a bug, but for introducing a Process that would prevent all such bugs forever. Or at least until the promotion goes through.
iOS doesn't even need more features, it needs way less. Sadly that isn't how the world work.
For my one use case I noticed that the newest iOS release doesn't appear to be tested on the iPhone SE 3. The "Press home to unlock" and "X new notification" texts are now laid on top of each other on the lock screen. You're looking right at it when picking up your phone, so you can't miss it, yet Apple QA did.
Reminds me of the old days working at Motorola. Your feature branches were merged into a biweekly dev branch, which needed to be “sanity tested” before it could get merged into the branch that the QA folks validated. Every software engineer was on a lab rotation: when it was your turn, you and a couple others that made up your team went to a different building and descended into the hardware lab where you didn’t come out until you had created a working mobile phone network from scratch and tested it with a wide variety of phones -basically anything that could work. They had shelves with bins of everything: early unreleased smartphones (this was way before the iPhone), junky flip phones, RAZRs, StarTacs, bag phones, etc.
It was honestly a lot of fun to see the hardware side of what you were working on, and to ensure that documentation and checklists were always sufficient.
Apple is probably way too secretive to do anything like that :(
Ah, I wish I could get a job like that -- both hardware and software. I need to take out the STM32 dev board I purchased a few years ago and started writing software for it.
Yeah that is very frustrating. I recently went to Ubuntu and picked the minimum installation. I then installed a bunch of development tools such as `build-essentials` and `git`. Other than Youtube crashing on Firefox, the whole experience, at least for the programmer part of me, is very satisfying.
BTW debugging still takes a lot of effort to setup in VSCode / or have to write init scripts for GDB which I suck at. I think Visual Studio debugger beats everything on Linux for that purpose.
for a long time, iDevices could not copy&paste. locking to one of those versions with no new features would be horrendous. not all new features are bad or trivial.
It is technically incorrect to say that iOS could not copy paste at any point, as the copy paste feature was present in the first version of the software called "iOS".
To use a version of iPhone OS that can't copy or paste, you'd have to use the original iPhone or the 3G (not 3GS!)
That's what I think too. I prefer the same UI for 30 years. I don't care about any "UI new age" stuffs.
TBH I don't even care about security anymore, like our data has been sold left and right already. As long as I don't get phished, I avoid 80% of the bad actors out there.
I already removed some update software from Ubuntu, those update notifications are very frustrating.
Ironically, this is EXACTLY what Google Keep (their notes app) is. Just a simple, cloud based sticky notes app that has barenones to no formatting features except for a basic checklist. It's perfect for me and has been that way for at least a decade. Knock on wood tho
Yea im also getting tired of the constant updates and featuritis.
I still have a 16” Intel Macbook pro and looking for my next machine and am seriously considering a Linux notebook for the first time. Im mostly coding and doing docker stuff.
No excel and photoshop is a bit of an issue though.
My complaint isn't about new shiny, but new safe. Sandboxing apps on Linux is getting better but it still has a ways to go to catch up to macOS.
I'm talking about things like how a weather app shouldn't have access to the filesystem, or camera, or microphone, etc... A calculator shouldn't be able to see my location or even what networks I'm connected to.
Initially it was building out the basic feature set. Now it seems every time they add a new swipe or icon it breaks my mental model of how my phone works without adding something that I needed.
Apple is caught by their own success: the iPhone is mammoth hit but they've reached the end of its growth. So they've got a whole organization built around making it more compelling to grow the sales, but they should really switch gears: put the iPhone into maintenance mode and invent something completely new. Easy to say, hard to do, trillions on the table if they pull it off.
When i type on iMessages, any time the message gets longer than ~8 sentences, ie... a mildly long message, it starts to lag extremely bad, where 1 keystroke has like a 250ms delay. it gets worse the more characters get added on
ive tried every single fix i can find, from turning off AI to predictive text. nothing fixes it. so many other people have this issue... it is absolutely insane a messaging app cannot message
I’ve had this occasionally but luckily it hasn’t persistently.
Also annoyingly, I don’t consistently get messages on my Mac. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t, with no way of knowing what I’m missing without looking at my phone.
Software quality has seriously declined across the board, from Spotify to Slack to core operating systems like Windows and macOS. I think a major factor is corporate culture, which largely ignores software quality. Another issue is that many engineers lack a solid understanding of CS fundamentals like performance, security, and reliability (perhaps this is why many are not able to solve basic algorithmic questions like linked lists or binary trees during interviews)..
I've seen code written by so-called "senior" engineers that should never have made it past review; had they simply paid attention in their CS 101 courses, it wouldn't exist.
On top of that, as long as poor software quality doesn’t hurt a company's bottom line, why would executives care if their app takes 20 seconds to load?
Consumers have become desensitized to bloat, and regulators remain asleep at the wheel..
There are plenty of us that would love to just sit and fix things all day, but then you get a poor performance review for not shipping new features and find yourself out of a job :)
That's not how Apple works. You'd be given requirements specific to your team and expected to implement them. End of story. You wouldn't be empowered to seek out other teams and fix their stuff (or even necessarily talk to them). It's deliberate and intentional to have very few people with that cross-functional power.
You're right and not right. There were the infrequent occasions when an engineer would be tracking down a problem they were having and end up in another teams framework/code. A Radar would be created, a polite code diff attached and, often, the team would take the patch and roll it into the next build.
I thought this once, it's a disappointing experience. You'll hear all the right things, and 3 years in, realize nothing you do matters to anyone, and that's because all the managers who were so excited about your passion for software quality haven't met with you in a 2 years. And then it clicks, they got promoted by knowing the game: features, resembling the rushed planning deck, delivered yearly. (This is a whole lot easier to whine about after banking the salary for 7 years, of course)
You know, money fucked up Apple. When I started there (1995) no one came to Apple as a "career move". Everyone there was passionate about the machine, the code, the UI.
100%. You nailed it. Very heartening to hear this, always been unsure of my most personal analysis, as it was limited to one corp in one era.
Vastly different circumstances (shitty state school x print design gig => 2008 philosophy dropout waiting tables => build a point of sale app startup, iPhone OS 2 => sold it => 2016 Google).
I had at nigh-religious appreciation for the things I learned from the culture of roughly that era. folklore.org type stuff. Grew up on Gruber. And learning so many of your cohort on Twitter. Took me from a waiter to an engineer.
I ended up being ashamed to mention stuff I learned from it, people rarely were in touch with the culture as I understood it. Many soulless vampires afoot once the money comes in.
I'll never forget asking a (wonderful!) colleague why they wanted to work on Team X, expecting "I'm really passionate about [form factor] because [use case]" or "Well, given $LOCATION, my options were [Google Cloud | this team | Google Play Books]"...instead it was "well, coming out of $IVY_LEAGUE with $STEM_MAJOR, my best options were finance or programming, and finance seemed worse"
I had far too many out-of-left-field interactions like that. And it poisons the place in many ways that, to me, ultimately damn it to mediocrity.
I see these trends as negatively impacting app quality.
"User pain" as a euphemism for "lowest common denominator" apathetic / fear driven development.
Like, playing the Vulcan game of Kal Toh where you remove rods unintelligentlly and still believe your constructed structure (the app) is fully coherent, and instead it dissolves into uselessness.
Honestly, I don't think it's a culture thing or a CS fundamentals thing.
I think it's the fact that software is 100x, or maybe even 1,000x, more complex that it was just 25 years ago.
Apps are built on so many libraries and frameworks and packages that an average application will have 100x the amount of code. And they're all necessary. A typical phone app is 200 MB, when Word 4.0 was less than 1 MB.
But it's not just the sheer number of lines of code that can have bugs. It's the conceptual complexity of modern software. An app has to have an interface that works with the mouse and with touch, large screens and small screens, regular resolution and retina, light mode and dark mode, it works offline and online with sync functionality, it works in 20 different languages, it works with accessibility, it works with a physical keyboard and an on-screen keyboard, over mobile data and over WiFi, it works with cloud storage and local storage, it goes on and on.
There are so many combinations of states to reason about. When I was building software for Win32 back in 1995, you worried about screen sizes and color depths. That was about it.
Software's just gotten incredibly complex and there's more to reason about and software quality is just going to suffer. Like, I love Dark Mode at night, but at the same time I can't help but wonder what bugs would have gotten fixed if engineering resources hadn't gone into, and continue to go into, Dark Mode for each app.
The reason everything is built on millions of layers is not because it is actually required, but because we have invested a whole lot of time in building frameworks so that mediocre programmers can get fast results.
I would call it a culture issue, where we are not able to seperate out places where this is fine, new interesting apps are great, I want as many as possible.
From places where it's destructive, I would be happy if none of the ways I interact with an os had changed since windows 7, but it had gotten faster, more secure, and resilient.
> And they're all necessary. A typical phone app is 200 MB, when Word 4.0 was less than 1 MB.
On native platforms, no it’s not.
I know this for a fact because I maintain moderately complex, functional phone apps that have binary sizes that sit below the 30MB mark. I use multiple desktop and mobile apps from other developers that also match this description.
The cause of the bloat there can be attributed to the following things, mostly:
- Apps including gobs of poorly optimized analytics/marketing garbage
- Third party libraries unnecessarily including their own gobs of poorly optimized analytics/marketing garbage
- Apps being wrappers of a web tech stack project built by devs who have zero dependency discipline, resulting in a spiral fractal tree of dependencies that takes up way more space than it needs to
Engineers who care about good engineering are pretty much a thing of the past. Today the game is buffing your resume with as many complex tools as possible, and jumping to the next thing before your pile of complexity crumbles under its own weight.
MacOS had more screen sizes to target in 2011 than the iPad does today; in any case, Apple has always tolerated having iPad apps that are blown-up phone apps. Mouse support for iPad apps has existed as an accessibility feature before it was deemed a core feature. Even that isn't any kind of technological leap, mouse support has been part of Android for at least 15 years now.
None of these really explain the sloppiness and unfocused nature of Apple software, which has been best-in-class until recently.
Except those iPad apps also have to have a Web app now, and if you don't have a custom MacOS app your iPad app has to look good when run in MacOS. You then have to support all iPhone models. But also maybe Windows and probably Android. 25 years ago you could slap "IBM PC Compatible" on software and basically design for like 5 color depths and maybe a few resolutions.
Update cycles were on the order of a year, not a week (which also means all new features need to be ported to all the platforms above in that timeframe). Not even mentioning the backend infrastructure and maintenance to run and sync all of these when 25 years ago everything was on your local hard drive and maybe a floppy disk or CD-R.
I lean toward "culture" as the problem. Although, allowing for your 100x or 1000x complexity, how much of that complexity is from feature pile-on?
I imagine putting AirPlay in the software stack, just as an example, caused code perturbations all over the place. Sidecar feels like another disruptive feature. Never mind Catalyst, juggling Swift and C binaries, Swift UI....
This stuff Apple brought upon themselves. I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions though as to whether some of these were worth the cost of disruption, on-going maintenance.
I agree. The frameworks and tools we use are so complicated, but we’re also so tied to the complexity that it’s pretty much an anti pattern to go outside the framework/toolkit.
I haven’t fully thought this idea out, but I’ve been feelin it recently.
I’d like to hear from the HN comments. Does anyone here work for a modern and popular software company (something I might have used recently) and think that the software they make is really and truly bulletproof? Like no backlog of hundreds of unfixed bugs and polish items that won’t stop growing?
I don’t think I have met anyone who works at one of those places yet. I’d like to.
Except none of Apple stuff is Electron based, and as far as I am aware of Apple salaries are competitive with top companies - so none of your arguments really hold up.
Apple software is still top tier when you start comparing to Slack, Teams, and all the non-native friends. Apple Music does not take close to 1GB of RAM. There are very few native applications these days because of the cost. And lower cost availability is based on the web stack and lower entry level of skills.
MacOS may have bugs but in general they are well engineered. Starting from secure enclave that none of the competitors have, or just raw performance and battery life that is not just hardware. I haven’t seen a single bug in my Watch for over a year. I guess it depends what you use.
The most bugs that we see these days are originating from the choices behind the tech stacks. Python and pure JavaScript are still too popular. Every post here with Rust name on it gets attention because of its promise of some level stability reduced resource footprint.
Dev at Apple seems immensely political and corporate. From the outside it looks very much as there are points for shipping $new_thing, even if no one out there wants $new_thing.
The whole marketing cycle is based on a endless stream of $new_things that give Tim Cook something to talk about during those slick presentations - presumably so he doesn't spend all his time making prayer gestures and talking slowly.
There doesn't seem to be anyone in charge of overall user experience who can say "Why does Facetime get so confused by different numbers and devices owned by one person? Why does the shared clipboard only work some of the time? Did the Settings app really need a new UI? Why hasn't Finder been updated since forever?"
> Why does the shared clipboard only work some of the time? Did the Settings app really need a new UI? Why hasn't Finder been updated since forever?"
These are like smallest of the small annoyances.
Compare Facetime and Zoom, for example. Issues are on completely new universum.
Zoom has new RCE about almost every month. They just don’t give CVEs for them because they can be mitigated on server update.
Web-based apps definitely lose when you compare RAM use, and probably also when you look at the average app installation size. Spotify.app filling half a CD is absolutely bonkers. But these are also the easiest two metrics to measure, and that makes it tempting to look at a huge trend in software quality and reduce it to "Chromium eats RAM".
It is much harder to quantify how many bugs or delays one encounters in a single day of macOS/iOS compared to earlier versions, or in native apps vs web apps, and so it never happens.
I just don't understand why Apple UI designers hate scroll bars with such a passion.
It's probably just me, but I feel that many apps on Apple follows the same pattern. For example checkout and compare the scroll bar experience on ChatGPT website (Chrome) between a Mac-book and a Windows laptop.
Apple's scroll bar allergy leads to some quite funny (to me, anyway) problems with major websites. Some companies seem to have their entire web dev + QA + management staff on Macbooks, because on any other desktop platform their websites are COVERED in useless scrollbars that scroll maybe one or two pixels. I've even seen scrollbars cover up half part of a company's logo.
All of that money spent on hyper expensive laptops, and people still end up with terribly ugly websites!
This is actually a kind of important setting to turn on if you're doing web development. At my work the developers use MacBooks and it's not rare to get bug reports about double scrollbars and whatnot which are caused by certain nested views with bad CSS, but it wasn't caught before release because the developer doesn't have scrollbars turned on, so you don't see it until a Windows user tries it.
Yeah that was already done. But it doesn't help too much. They kinda still fade in and out sometimes -- but I can't get a proof right now. In addition, they are still too narrow.
That isn't a VSCode thing. I have "always how scroll bars" enabled at the OS level and across many apps it only shows when the mouse is over the scrollable area. You know, because the accessibility setting is really just a poorly worded suggestion now.
I mean as a user I haven’t thought about a scroll bar in years. The way the OS works with the hardware for touchpad usage means it’s just not a big deal.
Even when I used a mouse on a Mac desktop it still never bothered me. Looks cleaner, feels sleeker and doesn’t impact functionality.
I don't know, but missing scrollbars is very frustrating in some cases. I literally missed some configurations because of that when I first used a Mac. There was a configuration window that needed some scrolling to show all options, but I missed that because there is no scroll bars.
Yeah but I agree that everyone has their own flavors. I personally prefer the Windows 2000 ones...I'm old. Never liked the flat ones, looks soulless.
You missed an indication that you need to scroll, that's certainly bad design, though fixing it doesn't require the full fat bar (not that I'd object to a proper global setting for users who like that!).
(flatness is a universal cancer, though, even compared to the ugliness of the old Win)
Apple creates excellent hardware but mediocre apps. Look at Reminders app for instance. Try to create a task. And then drag it to another list. Absolutely not a smooth experience. Feels like it‘s not a finished product. Now compare that to another app: Things3, where the drag and drop of list items is rasor sharp: You have the feeling you have full control over the item.
That’s just one experience. Another: Look at Photos app. Apple recently changed it. Total chaos. No lists anymore but tiles. I have to scroll up and down to find out where my lists of photos are. Germans call it „verschlimmbessern“, making it worse by trying to improve.
Or look at Finder app. And compare it to any competing product.
No app created by Apple really convinces me. None of them. Every product by an indy dev is magnitudes better.
Quality is a synonym for care. And if the leadership doesn't care, the teams building the software won't care (at least, not as much).
Putting a logistics guy like Tim in charge was great for ensuring Apple kept shipping existing hardware products and growing revenue, but almost guaranteed that quality across the board would falter. For all of his faults, the one thing that Steve Jobs did that's impossible to replicate by force is care.
Mark Zuckerberg on a podcast with Joe Rogan (massive grain of salt, please) talked about the protocol that Airpods use to connect. Apple is reluctant to share the protocol under the guise of "security" and "privacy". But when Meta finally had a chance to review it, it was apparently all unencrypted and all the keys were stored in plaintext.
But this tracks with a lot of other explanations they have put out over the years about why they can't put out basic features or fix UI flaws.
For interpreting Apple PR, I have re-appropriated Hanlon's Razor: “Never attribute to User Experience that which is adequately explained by incompetence or indifference”
Another issue I have is with the Messages app. My girl sometimes sends me voice messages from her iPad, and sometimes the voice messages come as .caf files. These files are pretty much unplayable from the iPhone in the Messages app. It happens intermittently because we send a lot of voice messages between each other. I use an iPhone 15, not sure what her iPad model is. It also happens sometimes when I record voice messages on my Mac (Sequoia 15.3.1) and it shows up as .caf files on her iPhone and it renders it unplayable. I then have to record the message with my phone before she can play it.
There was another case that happened (haven't been able to reproduce it yet), but I sent a voicenote with my Mac via Messages and we literally could not open the conversation again. It became so laggy typing a message in the conversation (even after waiting for a lot of time for the conversation to open). The way I resolved it is by deleting the conversation, that fixed it. But obviously I recovered the conversation, and the issue still persisted. I updated my iPhone to 18.3.1 and that was how the issue got resolved.
My personal annoyance is Apple abandoning AppKit in favor of SwiftUI, which breaks down immediately once you do more complex interactions than basic demo apps. NSScrollView and NSCollectionView must be among the most buggy UI components, but SwiftUI ScrollView is so barebones (and also buggy), it's basically useless.
I call it ShitUI because you can tell immediately when a view uses it. It's absolutely incredible how bad it is and that macOS is becoming cluttered with these awful UIs. Have you seen the WiFi menu? How can they fuck up a menu? I just don't understand.
In comparison, my experience with a Quest 3s with MetaHorizonOS.
It has a screen recording feature that when you use it the first time it asks you whether it can use the microphone. It claims that this can be reset somewhere in the settings. So the first time I used the feature, I disabled the mic.
A couple days later I wanted to record with mic and searched through the settings but found nothing. Googled it and discovered little. Many posts and answers pointing out that other feature settings require a factory reset to be able to alter initial settings made.
I searched again in the settings, fiddling here and there but found nothing in the settings nor anything that fixed the setting.
In the end, I had to do a factory reset. Then I was able to enable the mic for screen recording.
The device is good enough but the UI is a nightmare. Bulk deletion of notifications? Not possible. Getting out MetaHorizion? Three to four menus until a pause button can be used.
Much prefer my Apple devices - no BS, no factory reset.
I would bet that the reason for the drop in quality is the focus on delivering features in order to secure promotions and ongoing positive performance reviews.
Yep. A lot of software companies are suffering from this short-term-ism that results in incentive structures that value things that move the stock price rather than make for a strong long term company.
It may eventually blow up in faces, but a lot of the people making money on it today won't be around to see it.
Indeed. It's a Tragedy of the Commons type of issue with the way most corps are run nowadays. When you're just starting out it's understandable to be very short-term focused as next year doesn't really matter much if you go belly up next week. But once companies have some establishment, it's insane to me how little thought goes into long-term planning. That is, until you realize the incentive structure they've built essentially penalizes executives/management for sacrificing short-term opps for long-term health. For example, but slicing R&D to the bare minimum (and often below that level) and driving revenue high up and to the right by pumping up sales/marketing efforts, you can look like a business genius, and just as it starts to really hurt the company you're moving on to the next gig, and often with an exit bonus of some kind.
Apple seems like the kind of company that would greatly benefit from having someone opinionated at the helm to keep the different teams oriented towards a unified vision and to intervene when a team produces something crappy
I mean, it's not always like that, at Google it always depended on the business unit.
To be honest, I think it's sort of simplistic to try to characterize a 185k person company and its culture with this sort of lack of nuance, whether it's Google, Apple, or anywhere else.
I got promoted 7 times (from SWE 3 all the way to VP of Engineering, so I ended up in the top 0.01% or something crazy by level) during my time there, and pretty much only made things better, did migrations, etc.
I did build some new stuff, but I don't believe they were ever a meaningful part of a promo packet. All my promo packets were about fixing things or making existing things better, and the impact of doing so on developer productivity, efficiency, etc.
> and pretty much only made things better, did migrations, etc.
Maybe you are right.
From the outside however, the situation looks very different:
- reader? destroyed
- Google+? Forced upon us and then destroyed as soon as communities started to form.
- Search? Hasn't been working correctly since around the time Google+ launched. At some point it became so bad I used DDG and Bing out if spite. The difference was that small.
(and before anyone says "it is impossible to create or run a working search engine in 2025": Marginalia and Kagi both work very much better than Google these days, although Marginalia admittedly only in certain niches.)
Sure, but they've also had tons of products that have run for decades.
After 18 years of living, i'll give you the best view I got:
While I do think Google kills products it shouldn't, my view there tends more towards when things are killed that cost basically nothing to support (IE have 1-2 people working on them, have not large prod costs, and not significant privacy/etc issues over time that require serious engineering rewrites/cost), have lots of happy users, don't meaningfully conflict with some other product strategy, and don't need lots of new features.
When those are killed, I think it's dumb.
Reader falls into this category.
Picasa would not.
lots of things on killedbygoogle do not - i think they were fine to kill, whether the process by which they were killed was a good one or not.
Google+ - eh, there's a lot to hate there but it was also Google experimenting with a more top-down approach to product building. I tend to be a fan of cultural and process experimentation - you have to be able to adapt your culture and processes as a company grows, or you will end up in a really bad place. You will never get this right 100% of the time, and it is worth doing it on important things sometimes, so that the results actually matter.
In this case, G+ also got caught up in the existential crises of the day (social) in a way that was unhelpful overall, and had leadership (Vic) that I think were just not good. He had good folks working for him (Bradley, et al) but I think it would have gone a lot better with someone else in his seat.
I say this as someone who was working on a small product at the time that was slated to become the backend/etc for youtube comments, and got crushed by G+-in-youtube mandates. The Youtube folks were wonderful - happy to figure out what the best thing was, decided to ditch their own thing for ours even though we were a little team (3 people) in a different org, and they were a big team who had spent a bunch of work on comments. They didn't like the top-down G+ mandate anymore than we did. In the end, it wasn't the fact that there was a top-down mandate that was bad. It's that it was not a well thought out strategic mandate.
I do also think Google often doesn't know how to start small and grow a user base over time.
But the rest, i think there is tons of hyperbole around. I think it was fine to kill Picasa - just because some percent doesn't like the replacement doesn't mean it wasn't okay to kill. Part of development and product life cycles is that you are not going to get it right all the time for all people. That's normal.
In the end, they've created products lots of people loved, and have enough users of roughly any product that you can't kill anything without have a large group of unhappy people. The answer to that is not to avoid killing anything. At most, it's "be thoughtful in how you support its death". Sometimes Google learned from its mistakes here, and sometimes it didn't. I had a hand in a number of divestitures and such because of my background and sometimes weird roles, and tried to make sure we did the right thing when I could - previous mistakes were helpful in pushing things for the better.
For example:
Sketchup was divested rather than killed, which went really well.
Niantic was also spun off rather than killed, and I think that turned out really well as well.
I reported a bug in their mmap syscall on Apple Silicon. You can hard freeze the computer in about 4 syscalls (basically system C functions). It's still there and they won't fix it, or acknowledge that it's a vulnerability.
The frustrating thing is it locks the IO system, but the kernel thinks everything is fine. One by one each thread that does IO never returns. So you frantically click around wondering why your computer isn't doing anything.
I was literally just talking about this the other day—every app on my Mac that gives me trouble is from Apple (Music, Podcasts, Keynote). And don’t even get me started on the declining UX quality in iOS. It feels like the cracks are really starting to show now. I know Apple’s developer quality has been on a downward trend for a while, but at this point, it’s impossible to ignore.
The poster mentions issues with Notes and Freeform. I use these apps with an Ipad Mini 6, and suffer from freezes, latency, high power draw and crashes. I was previously considering getting a more powerful device like an Ipad Pro, but according to OP this won't fix it at all.
Paraphrasing a redditor, the Freeform app seems to have been developed as a demo tool to use in Apple Stores.
In theory, there should be some sort of paid app that uses all the incredible hardware for an actual good experience.
While I worked at Apple in 2021-22 their issues seemed about the same as nearly every other company producing consumer apps and devices; bloated slow garbage with very mediocre quality. Their engineering culture is terrible, especially as it relates to transfer of the “Apple ethos” to the next generation of devs. Apple is going to be indistinguishable from the rest of the pack within the next decade.
But most of all it seems like it was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for. That combined with the superficial “implement my Figma masterpiece in code” development approach that includes little to no user testing. Tog weeps. Don Norman weeps. Observe how much breaks when you do something as trivial as bump the default font size by one notch. I am sure it is pixel perfect at default size though.
Enter a birth date in a contact entry without a year. Watch as it jumps to the next day when you save because you are editing the date after 0000 of the next day in utc time. That bug has now been in MacOS/iOS for at least 17 years.
Sorry, got in to rant mode. I really want “less but better” from things in my life. We as consumers aren’t rewarding companies that take this approach apparently.
You can really see this when trying to build apps with Swift & SwiftUI. The language and the framework seem to be optimized for nice terse WWDC demos but both fall apart pretty quickly when you start to do any heavy UI lifting with them. And I think that's starting to bleed into their own native UI now too. The lousy macOS settings app is a good example.
Unfortunately there don't seem to be any good alternatives to Apple. Windows is even worse.
Yes, I was a fairly early SwiftUI guinea pig, when I'd mistakenly assumed it was solid because of how Apple was pushing it, and your "WWDC demo" is spot-on.
The DSL could've been better (while still syncing between code and direct-manipulation GUI painter). And the interaction model seemed like it wasn't to be trusted, and was probably buggy (and others confirmed bugs). The lack of documentation on some entitlements APIs being demoed as launched left me shouting very bad words on multiple days (which is not something I normally do) before I made everything work.
I could feel this, and ended up wrapping all my UI with a carefully hand-implemented hierarchical statechart, so that the app would work in the field for our needs, the first time, and every time. Normally, for consumer-grade work, I would just use the abstractions of the interface toolkit, and not have to formally model it separately.
Don't get me started on what a transparently incompetent load of poo some of the Apple developer Web sites were, for complying with the additional burdens that Apple places on developers, just because it can. Obvious rampant data consistency problems, poor HCI design, and just plain unreliable behavior. I think I heard that at least some of that had been outsourced, to one of those consulting firms that everyone knows isn't up to doing anything competently, but that somehow gets contracts anyway.
Not sure about other people, but for me, my UI framework making its own heuristic decisions about how to lay out and style my views is the last thing I want. It robs me of the certainty that my UI will look and work the way I intend. And this is why, as an Android developer, I still build my apps with decade-old tried and true technologies.
Yeah that view builder syntax is a perfect example of optimizing for the wrong thing. It makes for nice short examples but in real apps your compile times explode trying to untangle these crazy generics and the compiler very often just throws up its hands and tells you to figure it out. This means you just start commenting out bits of code until you find by trial and error what it doesn't like.
That this is shipping in the native UI framework for a trillion dollar tech company is astonishing.
Except those technologies are now deprecated and you don't know when they might be removed. Jetpack Compose is now the vendor-favored way to build apps, so best practice is to use that.
Their new wifi network selector is laggy as fuck. The old one was perfectly fine. This is just like windows reimplementing basic UIs in their UI-framework-of-the-year.
> It was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for.
This rings especially true with Windows.
There was a not-so-serious rumor that the whole MS design department uses Macs.
This may or may not be true, but recent UX changes make it clear that the designers don’t really use Windows beyond a superficial level. Many common interactions have become increasingly tedious and visually sluggish, both due to excessive animations and performance issues. Explorer in particular has become barely usable for anyone who frequently manages files.
Apple can stay far ahead simply by not falling even faster than Windows. Finder and Spotlight have gotten worse, but they remain light-years ahead of their Windows counterparts.
Spotlight has been broken on both of my Macs since Sequoia. It doesn't find anything under Downloads dir even though it should be indexed. Or any non-Apple apps under Applications. Re-indexing did nothing.
Ummmm, what? Spotlight I'll grant you, but Finder is hands down the worst file browser on any operating system.
There's no up button, no split screen, you can't copy a path easily, you can't show hidden files easily, you can't customize the columns in list mode, the column mode won't let you go up, there's no cut and paste.
Windows Explorer sucks, but not nearly as bad as finder. Dolphin, thunar, and Nautilus on Linux have all those features and more. I have to drop to terminal or install mucommander just to do basic things in the macOS filesystem.
Display the path bar at the bottom and you can get to any level of parent in 1 click. Without the path bar you can also right-click on the current folder name at the top of the window to also navigate to any level of parent.
> no split screen
This is not something I've ever found a use for in any OS, I always just open 2 windows. It does have tabs, and you can drags stuff between tabs, albeit with some delay. This seems minor, unless for very specific workflows.
> you can't copy a path easily
Right-click file or folder, when you then press Option, Copy changes to copy path.
> you can't show hidden files easily
Command+Shift+. toggles hidden files on and off. I find this pretty easy to remember, since dots prefix hidden files.
> you can't customize the columns in list mode
Right-click the headings and you can add/remove the ones you want? Is that what you're talking about?
> there's no cut and paste
Instead of an option when copying, it's an option when pasting. Command+C to copy, then add Option while pasting... Command+Option+V. I almost never use Cut, even on Windows of Linux, I don't want to cut something, get interrupted, do something else, and lose my file. Having it move, then delete the source with the paste action, is safer.
It sounds like you haven't used Finder that much, or weren't willing to learn or adapt your behaviors.
There are some things about other file explorers I like, but I don't find myself struggling to use Finder at all. I mostly miss column view when I'm on anything that isn't Finder.
It is hidden behind a keyboard shortcut -there is no menu. cmd-shift-g I think. But it is literally the only way I know to get to folders besides the designated shortcuts (documents, pictures, etc) and I've been a daily mac user for many years.
Not sure I even agree about spotlight. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something but can never find what I’m looking for. Even when I’m in the directory, searching for a file in that directory. It’ll just show me random download files.
Granted, I haven’t even tried to use it in years. So maybe it’s not so bad these days?
I assume they didn't expect users to use directory hierarchies much and thought everybody would dump their files into flat dirs and search them with spotlight.
TBF a ton of windows users aren't primarily from the platform, and have either a second machine or more experience on other OSes.
The dev community might be an outlier, but people choosing a windows machine to get WSL on a mainstream and well-supported hardware is not uncommon.
Same for those with a macos work laptop but a windows gaming machine, or artists using a mac for personal stuff and windows for 3D/2D creation.
Having Windows designers making platform transitions easier kinda makes sense, though I agree it shouldn't penalize existing users as much as it does now.
> It was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for.
> This rings especially true with Windows.
Just take a look at the Windows 11 "Control Panel" or whatever is called and how that looks like just another UI on top of the main system, that does not make sense
Context menu alone takes a few hundreds milliseconds to load every time. And then you have the infamous "show more options" to click if you want to do most of things (in my use case).
Open a folder isn't much faster either, there is visible delay. with the current-day hardware there is no reason why this isn't instant.
Compare it with Windows XP or Windows 7, the difference is night and day.
Interaction with OneDrive is horrible too, this is particularly bad because it was fine on Win10. When a folder is syncing it constantly "refreshes" itself which causes you to lose the focus if you're renaming files. This is the single most annoying thing because I do close a doc -> immediately rename it all the time.
I still had spinning rust when I upgraded. Win7 was fine. UI wasn't quite as snappy as XP, but it still felt pretty responsive.
After upgrading? EVERYTHING took forever. The friggin' start menu lagged noticeably on almost every interaction.
Upgrading to a solid state disk mostly fixed it, so they had clearly done something foundational that'd radically increased disk IO system wide. Solid state's fast, but it's not fast enough, if they'd kept going down that road. Eventually it'd start to show up there, too.
Windows 7 with spinning rust microsoft did ReadyBoost, where something could have incredibly fast seek times but mediocre throughput.
Vista was the worst windows, other than 8 and ME.
Suffice to say if windows was actually slow when i used it, i would not use it. I didn't use ME, XP, Vista, or 8. There's a pattern here. I did use Xp x64 edition, but that came out ~2 years after XP, and did not have the pre-service-pack issues XP did.
It’s comforting knowing that I’m not the only one being driven crazy by the renaming file focus thing.
Now when I paste a file and go to rename, I wait and watch the focus selection switch 3 times before I know I’m good to type
i replied to this person who ignored what i asked for, and i uploaded a video and linked it. I right clicked, clicked "rename" and then typed a name, pressed control-Z and then enter.
If we're talking about a transactional file sync service preventing you from editing a file while it's synchronizing; then i am not sure what to tell you. Both you and the person you replied to seem to merely like complaining.
(not OP) I open the “videos” folder and it takes 10 seconds to show the files list (there’s only like 50 files). I tried various forum solutions (whose existence proves it’s a bug) and nothing worked. Only happens on the videos folder.
Have you tried searching with Explorer? Or opening the start menu or a folder? I'm currently 100% a Windows shop, and it's embarrassingly slow on my silly fast computer.
but more to the point you have to enable indexing and let the indexing service run. Microsoft caught flak for "SearchIndexer.exe" using 25% of a CPU 24/7 that i think it's much less aggressive now. But i don't use that search because windows searches CIFS shares slowly, too. Everything.exe indexes and the searches are near enough instant that it's not even worth splitting hairs or stopwatch timers.
To be fair, searching with Spotlight has been equally slow and useless for me… Whenever I need to find a file and mistakenly use Command F in my Finder, the complete cessation of activity that inevitably results reminds me yet once again to just go to my terminal to use trusty GNU’s find instead.
I don't disagree, but the average business user is someone who uses the M365 suite and a handful of webapps. We are getting ready to roll it out and our test users haven't had many complaints. IT is a different story, however, for the reasons you stated. It's like they just shuffled all the system and config menus for fun.
FWIW, I've had the expiry month of credit cards stored in Safari increment on occasion (leading to failed online payments, trouble getting a flight, etc.) several times, to the extent that I now always include the expiry month in the card nickname. Mind boggling.
If you hit save too fast while a numeric dial control - like the sort used in the iOS Clock app for alarms - is still (barely) spinning.. it will happily just silently keep its old value.
This is easy to repro by spinning an alarm's minutes and hitting save before it's completely and utterly stopped.
This UI bug (?) has existed for as long as I can remember.
> Just get used to working around them and ignore?
Pretty much. It's not like the other operating systems are better in this regard. In general there's a lot more software that's buggy like this than software that's reliable
I don't even understand this bug description. It's an edge case I guess I never ran into, so pretty easy to handle.
That said, it's not like everything is perfect, just 100% better than my drive-by experiences trying to have a gaming PC (dead, again), and an Android phone for testing purposes.
To clarify their issue, you can celebrate someones birthday without knowing the year they are born, you only need to know the reocurring date. You can't enter a birthday in apple contacts without a year, if you attempt it it sets it as the date of tomorrow.
My experience with apple is something's either a 2 minute fix or unfixable which to be fair is a reasonable way to do things though much less appealing to me (though less relevant for many users as stock android/windows continue to give users less and less control).
Are we talking about the Contacts app on macOS? I just added the birthday "9/22" to a contact. On blur, the value changes to "September 22". On save, I see the value "September 22" reflected in the birthday field of the contact.
I accept them as I do in windows and Linux because I have built workflows around the things I do want on each of them respectively. I’ve long since given up the dream of any one platform or technology choice meeting all my needs, for me at least, it’s a fools errand.
Having joined a large established FAANG, it's become quite apparent that in any large established entity with so much management and meta work, with strong incentives driving more energy towards the meta work than where the rubber meets the road, it's inevitable for product quality to deteriorate.
Internally the prioritized output becomes the meta work, not what reaches customers. What reaches customers is almost some kind of accidental byproduct of what the vast majority of people in the org spend their time on day-to-day.
My past experience is dominated by startups. The fake work I'm incentivized to spend time on would have been fire-able levels of misplaced priorities / waste everywhere else I've worked as an IC developer.
I've never worked for Apple, I'm assuming this pattern plays out everywhere at this scale.
Matches my brief FAANG experience well: the vast amount of time devoted to performance reviews and the gaming of them versus actual productive work was… something I’d never encountered in my previous 15 years of work.
Interesting observation. I suppose most startups haven't existed for long enough for the meta-optimizing employees to be promoted over work-optimizing employees, yet.
Meta optimizing employees have issues hiding at smaller companies where one person has a vision of what needs to happen and quickly identify someone not pulling in one direction.
Once you get big enough, upper management has tough time figure out who is meta optimizing over work-optimizing. Not to mention there might be multiple meta optimizing employees.
I've seen high performance organizations at 600-800, thanks to execs that spent quite a bit of time talking across levels: When at that size, some ICs get CEO 1:1s, you have some chances of quality control. After all some execs had been coders. The problem is that none of them had ever been middle managers, which meant they had no idea of how to tell a good one from a bad one.
TAs the company kept growing, and hired middle managers from bigger tech, they that Jira was the way to go, as it allowed for nice reports aggregating "insights"across the organization. In under a year, point-centered management arrived, and with it an exodus of top talent, all of which had massive amounts of equity anyway. Execs then wondered what happened, and why ability to ship features kept declining. I think they still don't know.
I'd also be curious as to how it relates to span of control (~4-15 direct reports) and therefore levels of management for a given org size, as information hiding about actual work performed seems tied to managerial masking.
Same. The compensation is substantially better at FAANG, but in terms of actual on the ground work being rewarded, almost never the case.
Meta-work (lots of "cross functional" documents, alignment meetings, sync ups with senior tech leads to brown nose, deliberately creating low quality output to justify hiring more people/growing one's "scope") is 90% of it.
Any actual output is largely accidental, coming from the 20% still naive, or idealistic enough to actually care about what they produce.
This saddens me, as I learned the lessons of less but better through Apple over 20 years ago through Steve and Jony, which ultimately led to Rams. It was a pretty transformative lesson in my life, and extended far beyond tech or products.
I hope they are able to course correct with the right leadership. A culture that cares deeply about the little things is hard to build and has to be supported at the highest levels.
> Sorry, got in to rant mode. I really want “less but better” from things in my life. We as consumers aren’t rewarding companies that take this approach apparently.
If *becoming the most valuable company in the world* isn't being "rewarded", then what possibly is?
No, it's the hypercapitalist endless drive for ultra short-term, next quarter profits at the cost of anything else that causes this. Obvious irony being that Apple would've never become this big if Jobs had followed this approach.
This of course is the #1 reason of the downfall of the West, above all else - pure short-termism.
I will point out I was at Google for a similar length of time and saw nothing but amazing code, yet the problem was is building anything but the ads money maker.
If there was a way to combine Apples magic marketing brainwashing with Google’s engineering it would be an amazing thing to watch
Freeform also works incredibly bad on my iPad (sluggish, unstable, crashing). It’s definitely a software issue. I never had such performance issues with Notability.
But yes. The overall decline in Apple’s software quality is evident and sad.
> For years, many of us have willingly paid the "Apple tax", the premium price for Apple products justified by superior user experience, design, and ecosystem integration. But if software quality continues to decline, this value proposition becomes increasingly difficult to defend.
Just today I was thinking how the best hardware gets crippled by software that has become as shitty as Microsoft's.
By now it has become incredible that “Doesn't Suck” was once motto and slogan for the user experience on Apple devices.
> If I ever feel down on the Mac, I can go to a PC and try make a pdf or view one.
After a restart (which happens a lot because the machine crashes a lot[0]), my Windows 10 box won't be "ready for use" for a good 10 minutes. I've seen it take 30 minutes. I've done macOS updates that have taken less time.
Oh and macOS doesn't randomly reboot to apply updates. Still haven't found a way to prevent Windows from doing that.
[0] I suspect the 3080 but it frequently crashes when idle on the desktop which shouldn't be stressing anything GPU-wise.
Word isn't bundled by default but you can print anything to PDF. Windows ships with a PDF printer installed, so you could print from Notepad to PDF if you'd like.
PDF readers haven't been required for over 10 years? Chrome shipped with a PDF viewer eons ago and of course the old version of Edge and current Chromium Edge (and now Firefox, as of a week or two ago) have PDF viewers.
macOS Preview is limited to PDF 1.4. That kind of sucks. Not a deal breaker for most PDFs, but I've come across one or two that won't render and I had to figure out why.
Just today I was thinking how the best hardware gets crippled by software that has become as shitty as Microsoft's.
Apple software has always been crap. People put up with it because the hardware was nice and shiny and distracted from the many bugs and severe UI issues.
> Feature prioritization over optimization: Engineering resources appear focused on new capabilities rather than fixing existing performance problems;
This point really cuts to the heart of my frustration with Apple lately. I switched from Windows XP Pro to OS X 10.2 in order to have a dead simple, bulletproof desktop experience without all the nonsense. I recently booted my old macbook to grab some files and was shocked at how lovely and simple 10.2 was.
As an iPhone user, I can only agree that Apple's software quality is just going backwards. Keyboard is terrible, it suggests words that are completely unrelated. Control center is becoming worse at every update. You can't still select text in the messages. Wifi is always unstable. You can't turn off wifi, etc.
Also my father used to use the feature of announcing outgoing calls when call is made by Siri, they removed it and I saw that many blind people also used to use this feature. I don't know what they thought while removing this feature.
Yeah!!! What’s with their word prediction? More than 12 years and buggers still can’t predict my first name which I have typed a trillion times at least and is my name in the iOS and iCloud and contact and what not!!!!
The thing is slowly I am moving to so much non-Apple things that at one might I might go back to a much cheaper Android. Because anyway normal sized phones are not coming from Apple either.
Should there be a better way of reporting and displaying bugs?
For displaying the bugs, I'm thinking of something like what invision was - showing the interface of for example the desktop and showing the number of bugs associated with different elements of the desktop.
By displaying bugs as posts on a forum, I feel that we lose track of how degraded the performance of the system actually is.
I wish Apple would put more of their operating systems on a public git repository, make people sign CLA’s who make contributions, and vigorously defend their IP if people try using it in a manner that violates their terms of service.
They should also setup a public bug tracker so people can follow issues they care about.
Over time, a community/network of people inside and outside of Apple would evolve that fix issues and improve areas of the operating system they care about. Some sort of reputation system would emerge where people who write quality bug reports or create quality patches would get more attention from Apple.
It wouldn’t be open source, but it would at least be better than the way it works today.
Did anyone mention that on AppleTV I now get ads on my home screen?
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I am also using a Macbook for work and in addition to the fantastic battery life and the fact that it mostly "just works" I feel parts of the experience has significantly improved since last I used Mac, for example I can now remap ctrl and fn!
On the other hand I still miss the consistency and ease of use of Windows XP, Gnome 2 or KDE Plasma.
Then again, Windows manages to get a little bit worse every release, Gnome 2 was replaced with Unity (on Ubuntu) and later Gnome 3 which I understand still breaks extensions and which I still don't like despite trying hard.
Apple Music sends ads to my Lock Screen, every time I search it’s automatically set to “Apple music” despite being turned off and no subscription so gives me no results, I have to change the option every time, every few months I get an ad I have to dismiss opening my music collection. The listening queue doesn’t seem to work anymore I can’t add things to it and repeat no longer works in a sane way.
I feel this would be unthinkable in the time before Tim Cook’s Apple.
My canary was the iOS 18 update on my iPhone SE 2nd generation.
In all my years of using iOS, i never had long pauses, but switching between safari and other apps i sometimes had pauses around 10 seconds. Maybe it is the SwiftUI change; i'm not sure.
I did upgrade to the SE v3 and haven't really seen many pauses. But i am not a power user by any means and was seeing the problem often, along with some other glitches.
Just to be clear: it wasn't like the applications were lagging, it was as if the entire OS was crawling.
I tried a Macbook again when the M1 chips came out, and wasn't impressed with the performance. Despite incredible benchmarks, the interface just felt bloated and sluggish.
The biggest issue for me though was Darwin's weird psuedo-complete unix environment. All of my production servers are Linux, and it's a real pain to have to torture software that works great on Linux over to Apple's OS. Homebrew is nice, but even that would fail sometimes, and if the software wasn't available I would have to wait for someone smarter than me to port it. Also, it's weird that the community has to maintain this despite Apple having a gajillion dollars because they simply do not care about OSS.
More of a personal ancedote, but in the end all I'm really using a computer for is a web browser, code editing, and running linux production software locally. Just made more sense to stay on Linux, which I run on an excellent Framework laptop. It feels nice to be out of the software bloat treadmill.
What distro do you run on the framework? Ubuntu feels bloated and the software is old. The framework laptop is much, much worse than a MacBook Pro. The comparison isn't even remotely apples to apples.
I wish there was a perfect solution, but man. Comparing a framework laptop with ubuntu to an MBP with MacOS is crazy from anything but a cost perspective.
Xubuntu. It doesn't feel bloated at all. The software I use is Firefox and VSC, which update almost on a weekly basis sometimes, neither of them feel "old". I've actually been considering switching to something else from VSC because it changes too much and is getting kind of bloated for me, I really just want a text editor with syntax highlighting and a file list on the left panel.
If I was to nit-pick, I would say that having competing package managers apt and snap is annoying and I've considered switching to Debian over that.
The real surprise to me was that I liked the Framework trackpad more than the Macbook one. I assumed that would be the best thing about the Macbook and was surprised when it wasn't.
I sold it to a friend and she loved it. To each their own I guess.
Figure I’ll add my own obscure bug that’s never fixed. Apple finally released a Dvorak keyboard for iOS. Except a lot of times it bugs out and stays in QWERTY mode just for swipe typing even when you’re in the Dvorak layout.
I believe emojis are pretty popular this days, yet searching for one on macOS has been broken for years
1. Press Fn key twice to open Emoji picker
2. Type to search
3. Hover an emoji
4. Press Esc to empty search for box and start a new search
5. Type
You can't type. Focus is lost somewhere, impossible to search again for an emoji without closing the panel and open it again. My coworkers have all installed a third-party emoji picker to work around this issue, which is absurd from Apple's standpoint.
How can Apple engineers not be aware of such issues? Did they ever inserted an emoji from macOS?
I'd consider the tools in the iPhone's Photos app to be amongst the most "core" features - yet there've been glitches in it for the past year where if you annotate a picture (say, by adding text), the position of everything you've added is screwed up when you hit 'Done'. I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg.
Techrot is real and it's there in almost every major big tech product. Google does definitely take the gold medal in this category though as I have never seen so many bugs in production software by a trillion dollar company as I have seen in Google's.
1. Maps crashes almost every ride on Car Play (this used to happen a lot back in 2023 and was fixed for majority of 2024. Seems like it regressed again)
2. Trying to expand reviews on Google Maps expands the wrong review (100% reproducible, not an edge case)
3. Firebase Auth has terrible reliability when it comes to SMS delivery and fail rate of like 5-10%.
4. Gmail keeps opening links with the wrong account (Click on Google meet link from an email in account number 2, as in .../u/2/... . Link opens with account 0 and now you gotta switch accounts again).
5. Gemini is famously unreliable and produces wrong results for seemingly simple queries.
And many more I can't recall on top of my head but surely exist.
They design AirPods and its cases to break on impact. They make it so slippery that it would be a stretch not to say that they designed it felicitate fatal falls. And after all this, they used glue to glue it in such a way that it comes off if it didn’t fall. Then they just ask you to buy a new case — yes, they don’t glue or do such lowly repairs. They have the gall to explicitly say that it would be repairable by glue but they won’t do that. Not to mention batteries which are designed for obsoletion. Cases and parts are made perfectly irreparable. And that’s just AirPods case!!!!
Premium hardware my foot! They are lucky to be in a convenient duopoly.
> I call on Apple to return to its roots - creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists. The company that once proudly created products that "just work" needs to reclaim that ethos.
But this is a mythic past, not the real one, embarrassing software bugs have always been present! Moreover, it's never been limited to just software, remember premium laptop keyboard design fiasco, for example.
That's not true in my experience. I started at Apple in 1995 and user experience was king. Honestly, Jobs return was more or less the start of the decline (but, not of the stock price of AAPL of course).
Why did Apple engineering culture decline then? It became top-down, no longer bottom-up.
I used to do thousands of interviews across the industry and I vividly remember Apple backend devs being almost always unmitigated disasters. They would always pick Java and could barely use it - to the point where a for loop would be challenging. Their Swift guys were fairly decent though IIRC.
Apple had to switch CPU architectures and build their just to make their OS feel as snappy as KDE and Gnome does on mid-tier hardware. I wonder how long it will take until enough technical debt accumulates to a point where Mac OS feels like it drags again.
The absolute worst was the transition to SSDs if you were stuck on a hard to upgrade HDD-based Mac. It became super clear that Apple devs stopped caring in the span of a year.
A recent blog post in the Apple fanboy world posited that Apple has slow, non-user-adjustable animations that make the OS feel slow. That's basically why a user thinks KDE or Gnome is snappier. It has nothing to do with CPU architecture.
I still have an Intel Mac and it doesn't feel significantly slower than one with Apple silicon.
Last time I installed Gnome I had to install an extension to remove the 150ms delay on alt-tabbing that is present even when animations are disabled. It became snappy after that.
Rubbish. You Linux-only guys post this nonsense on any thread criticising competing OSs thinking the rest of us have no experience using them. I daily-drive older hardware (Xeon E5 with 16GB RAM and GTX 1080 ti), which is essentially all midtier is, and GNOME is a stuttery mess. It struggles to drive 4K. It's slow to load software, and what is available is often a UX mess (what have they got against menus?!). Discoverability is low. Disk access is slow. Tried BTRFS, ZFS and Ext4 - none of them make a difference. KDE is no better - how many modals or check boxes are needed for one option?
See, we can all pour scorn on other operating systems. The real problem lies in the expectations that people place upon these platforms. Despite my complaints, I actually enjoy using Linux on a desktop (laptops are another story). If I listened to a lot of you, my expectations would definitely not be met.
I really hope someone high up the chain at Apple reads this post because it's only the tip of the iceberg in describing the myriad of things wrong with Apple's software experience lately. For a company so flush with cash and resources, it boggles the mind how they could let things get this bad.
Feedback doesn’t work so I stopped reporting them. Bugs take about a decade to be fixed and they’re introducing them in a faster pace.
It sends as if nobody at Apple is either a power user or an “abuser” (like many old people who have 50+ email windows open on their iPad because the ui is not very good for them anymore)
I’d love to work at some for a year and only fix bugs and performance issues. It’s very rewarding work imo.
There are pockets of competence, but it's not a company priority (even the audio/video apps suffer). That such mediocrity has crept into the OS is even worse.
Just a note to say that I have the exact same issue as the author in Freeform on my 13 inch iPad Air. It heats up to the point that the screen dims, and then dims again and the iPad is uncomfortable to hold. It doesn’t take long for this to happen either.
In contrast, the iPad does not overheat when painting for extended periods in procreate.
In the current MacOS release, if I type Time Machine in the System Settings search box, it shows what I was looking for: "Show Time Machine status in the menu bar".
But if I click that, it shows the switch for the Keyboard Brightness menu bar control, and doesn't show anything about the Time Machine menu bar item!
Apple cannot figure out how to do a search in settings for the life of them. It's been broken on iOS basically since it was added. Do any googling about iOS settings search and you'll only find people talk about it to rant about how bad it is.
The absurd thing is that Apple pioneered searching settings in early MacOS. You type your query and a spotlight effect shined on the corresponding Preferences Panel for the selected candidate of your search results. Hence why Spotlight was called that originally.
somewhat similar problem, but I always go for time machine settings, it always wants me to open the time machine drive. Searching for time machine worked better on my imac dv. Not to mention you can only use google as your search engine in spotlight when major browsers have let you change it for the last decade or two
I am. Many of my old launchd services don’t work anymore. Well they run, the job begins, but then it can’t write to its files. I have no clue how they borked the permissions but something is up. The script works when I run it myself. As far as I can tell the launchd process should run the script as me the user in terms of permissions. It manages to run the script but doesn’t write to file. I am at a loss and gave up on debugging those services for now.
Is this a real bug? I recently got a MacOS device for the first time, and I have been frustrated that I couldn't get my custom service to work. Just like you, the script writes to files when I run it myself, but does nothing as a service.
I've been debugging it on and off for a couple of months because I assumed I messed something up.
My own experience has been the opposite. Early versions of OS/X were dire, things like a kernel panic when removing an already ejected USB stick.
People like to point at Snow Leopard as being the peak of reliability but there are two things to consider about that. The first is that the previous versions were so bad that they had to stop creating new features and do a bug fix only release. The other is that it still needed countless updates through the following year.
If you want an example of something they have done exceptionally well take a look at the rollout of APFS on the iPhone. They replaced the filing system on millions of phones with barely a murmur from the community.
I think you are correct, people like to whinge (especially here).
When I bought my first Mac (M2) I could reliably freeze the screenshot app by clicking 2-3 buttons in the right order. It was fixed months later at least.
To this day the mouse hover zoom animation for the dock freezes regularly and it happens on two separate devices. "Coincidentally" this animation was disabled by default. The preinstalled image viewer cannot open more than about 50 images without randomly distributing them across multiple windows and/or spamming a series of error messages telling me that some of the files cannot be accessed. When I click on certain video files in the file open dialog, some thumbnail process allocates over 25GB memory within seconds and the system becomes near unusable for a minute or two.
I would say it’s roughly comparable to Windows 10/11, which fell off a cliff in terms of quality. But to be fair Mac OS can handle much longer uptimes, today my Macbook force rebooted after about 250 days and it ran perfectly fine up to that point.
I don’t have any issues, but I am that person who uses just web browser and terminal on Macbook. Almost all software comes from Nix package repository.
Idk but sometimes slack just takes over the screen and crashes the display drivers pretty regularly. You could put that to badly written software but I don't think display drivers should crash.
I see others have responded with specifics. That's cool and all but it seems a bit futile to me because Apple has all this data internally and could act upon it if they wished.
Certainly with "crashers" there are crash reports from the field (you and I) that are sent back home and filtered into various databases. Internal tool allow Apple to see the "top crashers" (and you can filter to specific OS, hardware, etc.). There will be Radars filed for these and they will be sent to the appropriate teams.
The issue of course is the degree to which these take priority over feature work, etc. If Apple decided to do nothing but address these for a year or two we could have nice things again.
Not who you responded to but I've been looking now after reading this discussion and here are some things I've come up with in the last minute or so.
- Why when I drag the Safari window up to go full screen with the tiling manager does it leave a large gap around the window? When I double click the top bar it aligns the top and bottom with the edges but still leaves a gap on the sides.
- Why does the settings dialog have so much lag? It takes a couple of seconds to launch and then when navigating around there is a roughly one second lag between panels.
- Why can't I uninstall default Mac apps that I have never opened?
- If I open up task view using F3, why is there no option to exit the window or program?
- If I have a Safari window open in a smaller window and double click the task bar, why does it maximize the way it does? Leaving a large section open.
> - Why when I drag the Safari window up to go full screen with the tiling manager does it leave a large gap around the window? When I double click the top bar it aligns the top and bottom with the edges but still leaves a gap on the sides.
It's a feature. System Settings > Desktop & Dock > Tiled windows have margins.
> - Why does the settings dialog have so much lag? It takes a couple of seconds to launch and then when navigating around there is a roughly one second lag between panels.
Each 'panel' is actually an app extension that runs its own process. Similar to extensions and control panels in classic MacOS.
> - Why can't I uninstall default Mac apps that I have never opened?
This is annoying.
> - If I open up task view using F3, why is there no option to exit the window or program?
> - If I have a Safari window open in a smaller window and double click the task bar, why does it maximize the way it does? Leaving a large section open.
The modern macOS UX is an amalgamation of Classic MacOS and NeXTSTEP, neither of which really has the concept of "maximised" in the same sense as Windows does. The action you describe "zooms" the window to best fit the content. The parallel to "maximised" is full screen.
Aside from security fixes and improvements I rarely use anything in OS X that wasn't there many versions ago. I wish they'd try a "long term support" model instead of annually releasing bug ridden OS versions that don't provide me any benefit. The main benefit seems to be to Apple, planned obsolescence etc
Apple really should slow down their release cycles and focus on quality for a while. Apple Music on macOS is such an embarrassment. The UI is a mess. Airplay is broken.
I just want my old fashioned but decent Mac applications back.
MacOS has gone downhill like crazy indeed. On an M4, searching my safari history is super slow, searching for a password in the Passwords app is also really slow. I mean these are just lists. Apps steal focus all the time, Finder window column widths reset whenever they feel like, search in Mail sometimes just refuses to work. iCloud tab syncing? haha, not today, maybe next week again. You could probably write a dissertation on the new, new system preferences app.
This is not only an Apple problem. Most software developed today is in a terrible state. What boggles me the most is that how users are immune against it - it's so normal that software doesn't work or has bugs that most users don't even get upset - it's just the way it is. It's software - what can you do? :(
Apple has no decent solution for the issue of the cursor moving if you accidentally touch the touchpad while you're typing text (other than disabling the touchpad and using a mouse).
Like they couldn't implement some heuristic that could be enabled in settings, to ignore touches that occur close to simultaneously with textual keystrokes.
Several times a day, I'm typing, and suddenly, the cursor jumps in the middle of earlier text where a fragment of the tail end of my typing goes before I notice and stop. I then have to undo that, and retype it at the end.
Using the backend services (iTunes Connect, etc.) is painful.
Also, don't get me started on the current state of "documentation." At one time, Apple had a huge team of ridiculously overqualified documentation people. They often had better chops than the engineers.
This reminds me of the recent reading of "Inside Macintosh" on archive.org. I really hope they produce similar paper documentations nowadays. I'd love to hold a dictionary of obscure Mac internal knowledge.
It was amazing, and spoiled me. There was a similar set of books about BSD UNIX, as well. Don't remember the exact title, but it was pretty awesome.
Right now, it looks like they are relying completely on, on headerdoc comments.
It can work, but someone needs to spend a lot of time on these comments, and they need to do so, at a “holistic” level, coordinating all the various systems.
They have done a fairly good job, so far, but it’s really starting to fray; especially in the newer systems.
If there was a competitive market, this thread would be a marketing gold mine.
If the computer industry endgame is for users to consume media via simple voice interfaces and AI, what is the business model for serving the smaller market of professional users who need powerful, classic HCI interfaces for creating new artifacts?
After updating to iOS 18.3.1, my iPhone 14 Pro Max has encountered many strange bugs. For example, the camera's balance indicator randomly disappears. Additionally, the battery drains significantly faster. I hope Apple can fix these weird bugs as soon as possible.
I feel there's a cliff drop of quality in both hardware and software with the release of Big Sur, the version where I believe they rewrote a lot of the softwares. It's very obvious when I replaced my 2015 MacBook Pro with a 2020 MacBook Pro M1, everything downgraded, but now I'm getting used to software being clunky and buggy.
I always really liked a lot of apple software, like Preview.app. It's a viewer for almost everything, images, documents, 3d models, but it doesn't feel bloat at all, I'm glad Apple doesn't seem to change the app much. Also shocked the first time I found out TextEdit.app is also a WYSIWYG HTML editor.
I would really love to hear how development at Apple is going nowadays. Fixing many of the things requires cross-team collaboration and I thought that was a no-go.
The mail got broken. Somewhere in 18 iOS release. I am also getting weird touch issues. Almost impossible to reproduce and I have no time for 20 Genius Bar appointments to prove it. I will buy another iPhone in 5 years again, maybe the one I have is the unlucky one.
I have been reporting several bugs through the Feedback app you get access to when you are part of the beta program.
There is to many menus and no search option to find the right “department” to report to, so I have almost stopped giving feedback on bugs.
Author here, I used the Apple's Product Feedback page[0] countless times, I don't have the Feedback app since I'm running the _stable_ builds of all their OSes.
Have you tried using Shortcuts on ANY Apple device? It's a fucking mess.
It is impossible to write Shortcuts with code. Consequently, this means that you're stuck with the no-code workflow builder.
Unfortunately, the no-code builder is a hog! Moving actions around within the panel will cause Shortcuts to lock up. Sometimes, Shortcuts will just refuse to reorder actions when you move them. Exiting and re-opening is the only fix.
Then there's running Shortcuts. Shortcuts appear like they can run anywhere on first glance. Try running a Shortcut to append text to a note on Apple Watch. You can't. But Shortcuts will gladly spin lock for two minutes doing whatever the fuck before yielding a "Remote Message Execution timeoit" that is Apple speak for "watchOS doesn't support appending to notes," or "you're saving a file into an iCloud directory that doesn't exist, and I'm not going to create it for you because no" or "your phone's off and I could connect to iCloud, but I'd rather not and piss you off instead."
But say you go through ALL of that and build your perfect complex shortcut that makes your life much easier. You'll find out later that year when the new iOS drops that a few of the actions in your Shortcut were silently changed and now the entire thing doesn't work!
You'll spend hours fixing it, wishing you were on Android the entire time but remembering that your Apple Watch actually is useful sometimes and everything on that side is SO MUCH WORSE because Apple has insane economies of scale and patents the shit out of everything.
This is just the tip of my iceberg of grievances with Apple software.
AirPods whose case dies every three days and often fails to switch between devices despite it being a flagship feature. Accidentally changing tracks when you raise-wake your phone. LITERALLY EVERYTHING about the keyboard. I could easily go on.
But, hey, at least Apple Intelligence can summarize my emails so I can think even less.
I miss the Apple that made Apple Mail, Calendars, Reminders and Notes. Those apps were made _before laptops were mainstream_ but are STILL the best at what they do while being mostly private and on-device.
Mine is that running multiple network extensions (like Tailscale, Little Snitch, a VPN) causes networking to randomly stop working. The only solution is to not use more than one network extension at a time.
I'm not sure if anyone else experiences this but there's a bug in the display settings where:
- high resolution high refresh rate display (max res and refresh rate are higher than DP1.2 bandwidth)
- attached to dock through DP
- macbook lid is closed and plugged into dock
the attached display defaults to the highest resolution, even though it's unsupported by TB3. This leads to a black screen. Changing the resolution by opening the lid doesn't fix this because closing the lid will return the external display to the default resolution.
Yea, I used to use Apple Notes for everything until their recent big update where it became very jittery. (even on an iPhone). The web-version of Apple Notes always sucked.
I am using Notion now, and even though that is kinda janky on an iPhone, it is still better than Apple's own notes, and of course, their web-version is much much much better than Apple's.
Here's a weird bug. If you have on your iphone, photo slide show (i had it set to cities and nature), and then with a charger wire in then just try to use your phone, the touch digitizer goes crazy, as if there's some weird interference. Switch back to a standard wallpaper mode, and the problem goes away. iphone 14pro
I have two AppleTVs (2021 models), and they cannot play video on other streaming services after watching something on Apple TV+. Typically the view loads for the video, shows the first frame, and overlays the loading circle element until reboot. Killing apps and reloading doesn't fix it.
I'm not sure how this is possible, but it's trivial to replicate and is only resolved by rebooting the device.
I have an issue with Messenger notifications on one device, a laptop. The messages get delivered just as quickly on this laptop as on other devices, but the notifications can take minutes to come up. Also, the number of unread messages sometimes gets stuck out of sync, for example showing 1 when I have no unread messages. I've tried rebooting, and I've tried disabling and re-enabling notifications.
I'm still on Sonoma, so the next thing I could try is updating to Sequoia, but that feels foolish. Only one thing is wrong. It could be worse. How often does updating software actually make it better? Apple should feel like the exception to that cynicism, but it doesn't, which is bad news for them, since their entire business is predicated on being the exception.
A premium product that's worth the money. That's such an easy thing for people to stop believing in if the reality doesn't live up to it.
Apple should Open Source its OSes and internal apps. Of course this is very NOT-Apple, but it would allow folks to fix their apps. There's really no advantage to keeping it all proprietary. Apple's software teams are completely under water whereas Apple customers are diehards and would gleefully help fix issues. It would avoid the need to reproduce problems internally prior to ranking their importance for the internal team to fix. Besides, MacOS roots are in Open Source.
I wish.. First they should let their paying customers run whatever applications they want on the box they own. Annoying that so few linux apps exist over here because of the $99 developer fee
The phenomenon of software quality/usability going down aka the second system effect isn't specific to Mac OS, to say the least. I actually left Linux behind on the desktop which has gross regressions since 2016 yet unlike Mac OS hasn't gained a single app or end user feature to make up for it.
We have a good set of feature requests from app store that would make catching issues like this infinitely easy.
1. Revamp TestFlight - 10k users is very little when user base is 100m+ users.
2. Improve phased roll out capabilities
3. Introduce a/b testing at release level to test old/new binaries at binary level (vs at feature, which is also a must have).
These 3 can catch 99% of release bound issues, no problem.
The iOS Mail app has gotten so bad. It shows errors for no reason whatosover. The other day I typed a message and hit sent (and status showed all synced) but it was not sent and not even in draft.
I still remember the story of an IMAP bug Apple mail had for years and years. I forgot exactly what the bug was that was open with Apple, but Apple’s way of addressing the bug was turning off the feature in an update and closing out the ticket.
In general if I buy some hardware and the OS is ok, but any supplier apps are just an afterthought. If that be from Huawei, Samsung, Microsoft, Apple, etc, a TV, a phone, a computer. On my iphone I have a folder with all the Apple apps, just in case) but otherwise I use other apps. I also have an extra Samsung phone, same thing.
Supplied apps are free and therefore paid for otherwise. Normally full of ads and only sporadically receive updates to repair bugs or add new features.
The goal is often only to keep my tight to their platform, be it Samsung, Apple, etc. Those apps are an investment in the future which probably do not do well in a companies one quarter horizon.
I've started to wonder whether there might be any internal resistance at Apple to the move to SwiftUI, which has brought some benefits but also a whole host of odd behaviors in all kinds of places.
There's probably an alternate history where they would have stuck with AppKit for a few more years until LLMs got to the point they are now, and then dove in to leveraging LLMs to make AppKit development easier (essentially leaning into human language "declarative" programming rather than conventional declarative programming).
This is not the only instance of the software quality crisis in Apple.
<Warning: long and extremely critical rant incoming>
TL;DR Apple just does not have a qualified team (from the top) or the right team size (the one in the company is far too small).
I test beta releases of Apple’s OSes and report issues. I’ve seen a few factors over several years:
* There is not enough QA (or probably no QA at all) at Apple. So many bugs just creep through to release even after having been reported with tons of information and system logs provided. There is no attention paid to any bug report unless it is known and believed (by someone at Apple) to affect hundreds of users. Even then there’s little chance of attention to it.
* There is no feedback loop from Apple back to the bug reporter — you toss your bug report and assume it goes into some black hole.
* The direction of software development in Apple has moved to taking whatever is done on iOS — with a mediocre approach and plan — everywhere else. This includes things like Catalyst (the main reason you’d hate a macOS app from Apple). Try navigating Reminders or Music or any other Catalyst app on macOS with the keyboard — it’s as if the developers have never ever heard of tab order or have never used a keyboard that has non-alphabetical and non-numeric keys.
* Continuing on the previous point, Apple’s own app developers know something about how to create a mediocre iOS app, but over time the developer base has changed such that it has no knowledge of or history with desktop operating systems. I have no idea what top executives like Craig Federighi are even doing and why (I’m sounding generous here) they’re seemingly held hostage to such poor quality.
* When you look at the issues across device platforms and OSes, Apple seems to have one tiny team of software developers who work part time on all of those. Monday is iOS OS day, Tuesday is iPadOS day, Wednesday is macOS day, Thursday is iOS app day, Friday is iOS app day, Saturday is Apple Intelligence day and Sunday is a tvOS, homeOS and AirPods day. Apple’s services get a few hours here and there every few months.
"Feels too hot" is hardly an objective measurement. Why worry about something that "may" occur. Use your device. If it fails take it in a get it replaced under warranty.
I tried an iPhone for three months or so, ending a month ago, and I was really disappointed by the experience. I thought Apple was still a company that focused on UX, but it was eye-opening to see that they had lost their way.
There are four distinct ways to go back (swipe from the left/right side, press the X, press the left arrow, swipe down), whereas Android has one way that always goes back to the previous screen. The inability to set volumes separately, the fact that folders hold exactly 9 icons and leave the other 60% of the screen empty, the fact that a very commonly-used button (the back arrow) is at the hardest-to-reach part of the screen, all of that just made for a really frustrating experience.
After that, I bought a Nothing 2, and I love it. It's snappier than the iPhone, feels premium, and Android has stolen all of the good ideas iOS had and added more.
I went from using a series of Android phones, including a number of flagship phones and finally tried iPhone in 2018 after custom keyboards became available (no way I'd accept the built in back then).
At that point the cheapest iPhone option available outperformed every android phone I'd used at that point and I was sold.
Still think the software could need some love but at least it does not feel like my phone has to do a call to a lagging wev service to open the camera.
I used Android for the better part of a decade, and once I switched to an iPhone I never really had any issues around not having a back button, considering the amount I hear complaining about it.
Basically every app lets you swipe from the left to go back. Occasionally you'll have a bottom sheet you can swipe back down to where it came from, but it's generally pretty intuitive. I can't think of many times I felt "stuck" and unable to go back.
It's not about getting stuck, as then that would be terrible. It's just about the thousand papercuts my experience was.
I forgot the biggest annoyance that ultimately made me abandon the experiment: the keyboard is ATROCIOUS. On Android, I just hit keys in the general vicinity of what I want, and it writes the right thing, every time. On iOS, with the exact same keyboard, it kept making mistake after mistake.
Both the stock keyboard and SwiftKey were terrible on iOS. I'd understand the stock keyboard being bad, whatever. I don't understand how SwiftKey can be great on one platform and horrible on the other.
I hate many details from Apple's software, but most stuff people are complaining about is solved by downloading an app/plugin that does it. However, this should not be the case when you're paying for a 'premium' OS. It's highly frustrating and time consuming.
At this point I think I've spent more time tweaking macOS settings, downloading and testing stuff than I did when I had Ubuntu as my work OS. Ridiculous.
It may not be perfect, but the alternatives I've tried have so far been even worse. I have a Windows 11 gaming PC, and oh boy that is an OS that deliberately tries to give you a bad day, and Linux ... well, if you don't want config tinkering to replace your day job then it's simply not something usable for most modern hardware as it doesn't even have a display server that actually works well (Wayland breaks almost all Electron apps, which is like, most apps these days, and makes X11 apps look tiny and horrible due to the clusterfuck that is fractional scaling on Linux) and for some reason every now and again my vanilla Linux install simply just crashes. It has also borked itself mid video call for reasons unclear. Definitely not an OS I'd like to use for any professional work since it seems to have the stability of Win 2000.
Title should be something like “Apple Pencil Pro causes iPad to overheat and slow down”. This sounds really annoying, but the overly broad title is just clickbait.
In my experience, this bug - lags and overheating when drawing with the Apple Pencil - exists since iPadOS 16. When searching for it on the web, I found lots of reports and no indication that it is solved, including by hardware replacements.
In any case, HN's guidelines ask to use the original title of an article, unless it is misleading or linkbait. I'd agree that Apple's software quality has been going down.
iPad OS is largely dysfunctional in a myriad of other areas too. I like my iPad but the number of times Chrome or a simple app just freezes is getting out of hand. Also there is a bug where the iPad will freeze if I had a Bluetooth device connect while the device is locked. I think this got fixed in some recent update but it happened frequently for well over a year and it'll lock the iPad for 15-60 minutes at a time.
These issues are becoming more recurring. Meanwhile Apple is trying to sell me on some stupid intelligence that I do not need.
Glad it's not just me thinking that. The amount of UI bugs I encountered in the last few macOS versions is fairly annoying.
Very often, when I switch input keyboards between English/Mandarin, the popup that appears to indicate the selected language just won't go away automatically. I have to manually go and click somewhere to get rid of it. Also had loads of issues with notifications not rendering correctly.
iOS 18.3.1 bricked my wifi and bluetooth. Can't connect to anything. MacBook Pro cannot open discord, slack, mail due to an os issue. Apple has such great hardware but the software has so many bugs, you start looking around for alternatives.
I recently switched from an Android to an iphone and the writing experience (keyboard, text selection, scrolling) are so frustrating. I initially thought I must not be used to it but then found so many people had the same problem. I didn't expect this from Apple.
> Feature prioritization over optimization: Engineering resources appear focused on new capabilities rather than fixing existing performance problems;
People are keeping their phones longer they used to, which is obviously a problem for device makers. Therefore they must lean on new feature development too sell new phones. "Increased reliability and stability" is not a good consumer sales pitch
> Have they made that claim anytime in the last few decades?
I'm not sure that Apple themselves ever really did.
So it becomes even more important when people stop associating Apple's software with quality when it was people who started to associate it as such in the first place.
A few yeas ago my friend had his iphone replaced three times under warranty. Every single time the mic failed and it came up with a message after boot that an audio device had failed. His next phone was an Android one.
question for all the linux users out there, which DE most closely follows the windowing style on a mac(preferably out of the box/with a script)? I've enjoyed the multi-virtual-desktop windowing style during my stay here but as noted, the experience isn't keeping pace
Vanilla GNOME has most of the features you'd expect from Mac windowing. It doesn't go out of it's way to replicate the Mac desktop, but IMO it's much simpler as a result.
Been running GNOME for about 2 years now and the experience is really smooth. If you've got a Magic Trackpad, it works wonders on modern Linux. I also recommend GSConnect or Valent for a handoff-like experience with your phone:
If you open the lid and connect screen in a short time. It sometimes end up showing every desktop in mission control as black square. And only way to fix it is disconnect and reconnect the screen again. The bug is there for so long and I already have the muscle memory to perform the sequence. How did they messed up such a basic function?
There is no way that apple employee did not hit the bug at all given the requirement to trigger the bug is so simple.
Software problems like we are seeing are not something that happen over night. They slowly appear until you can’t see them. It takes years of bad design and decisions to get what we have.
I see this throughout the industry and can’t help conclude the problem started about 5 years ago, and we thus we are now seeing the results of Covid and possibly WFO.
I don't think this has to do with Covid or WFH. It is more likely that Apple is focused on showing huge profit margins, at the expense of hiring qualified staff, due to a quarter by quarter focus, in a mature market. When one person leaves, they don't get backfilled. You can hide a lot of sins with the aggressive push from marketing and focusing on hardware performance. How do you measure software experience? How do you brag about it?
You are right that it has been a cumulative process, and the issues will continue to accumulate. But it has nothing to do with Covid or WFH. It started years before that.
My daughter uses one of my old 2017 Macbook pros (nice hardware, everything works fine). I learned yesterday that she cannot use Pages because OSX cannot be upgraded to 10.14, which is a requirement for Pages (I suspect the same thing will happen with other Apple software).
Something there doesn't add up. Mojave came out in late 2018. It's simply not the case there is any 2017 Apple hardware it doesn't support. Indeed, laptop support goes back to anything made in 2012 or newer.
>But if software quality continues to decline, this value proposition becomes increasingly difficult to defend.
If software quality keeps declining, this proposition isn’t just difficult to defend — it’s indefensible and an insult to consumers. Apple has lagged behind Android for a decade, and its software now fails at tasks Symbian OS handled effortlessly.
I've dealt with clunky software all my life, but Apple is the first ecosystem where things are outright unfixable. "It just works" — until it doesn’t, and then you’re out of options.
A few examples of Apple's atrocious software design:
- Rather than universal "open with" controls, iOS forces you to open files with a random selection of apps. Want to edit an image in Snapseed? Too bad, Photos won’t let you. But it will let you use it to "find products on Amazon". I get that this is up to the app developers - but a simpler solution would've been global "Open With" functionality.
- Call recordings over 20 minutes freeze the Notes app, making them impossible to move. No fix for months.
- Changing a wallpaper takes nearly six steps.
- The Home Screen follows non-Euclidean geometry whenever you try to move an icon
- The Settings app search is useless: searching "Camera" shows privacy settings, not the Camera app settings (which aren’t in the Camera app, because of course they aren’t).
- Probably a dozen other niggles you just learn to "live with" on a $1000 phone (and which people with a $200 Android don't even have to think about)
No company has as much contempt for its users as Apple, both from their design philosophy of keeping as much control away from users as possible, and the pricing strategy that pretends like this shitfest is a premium experience. But the users are also to blame - they create the cult that enables this.
On most forums, complaining about Apple just gets you a "why did you buy it then lol" response from users - and absolute silence from Apple.
In a better world, this company would be boycotted by consumers. This forces it to reset and try harder.
I know people tend to get very upset by this but if I’m not mistaken the M1, M2 and I think the M3 processors all now have “unfixable” hardware level security bugs on par with SPECTRE that destroy the concept of a Secure Enclave AFAIK.
when I learned that fact it made me feel as if I want to switch away on a hair trigger, I do wonder if other modern arm platforms are safer, or just less scrutinized, and if Apple is still safer than Intel?
I use Apple software and hardware all day every day. There was a patch ~13 years ago where things were really rough but I haven't noticed many issues over the past few years.
A couple of months ago I had an iPhone in my hands for half an hour, for the first time. I was helping to debug some WiFi and also a minor printer issues, and all there was was this iPhone.
It was hard to use. It was all full of inconsistencies and some things that were simply illogical, which left me wondering for a while. Maybe I just was forced to deal with the wrong apps and it might have been a similar experience in Android, but Apple's marketing department really does a superb job at selling those devices.
I wouldn't call Apple's hardware as premium quality. Premium price yes, quality no - not since PowerPC times.
I was an owner of the original crackbook, have had a magic keyboard, magic mouse both fail shortly after warranty period, I can't count the number of power leads that have started fraying (thank goodness for USB C!).
Ass for iPhone screens - seem to be very breakable compared to other manufacturers.
No manufacturer can even come close to the translucent pinstripe g4, so easy to open, so much expandability. Hard to imagine it was made by apple, same goes for my 2012 mbp
People think just because they hit the lottery (and broke their screen) it must mean the iPhone screen is just crap. I also have never broken an iPhone screen. Statistics are hard for people to understand.
I moved to Android this year. iOS accessibility just doesn't make the iPhone worth it anymore. Braille becomes more and more unstable in VoiceOver every year, and Android works way better with Windows and Linux than iOS does, and Mac accessibility, frankly, sucks.
All software development is ultimately dominated by complexity management asymptotics.
Every tuple of
(engineers, organizational structure, choice of language, ...)
Generates a function mapping from <complexity of problem> to <complexity of solution>
The asymptotic behavior of this function determines the most complex problems you can solve before the complexity of your solution (the software) blows up and becomes unmanageable.
Apple's function currently has subpar asymptotics on the software side, so they've hit the bounds of complexity that they can properly handle.
There are a lot of things you can do to improve your asymptotics: engineering org structure improvements, switch to programming languages with better complexity function asymptotics, etc. etc., but any of these changes require an organization with the executive function and insight to actually make the jump, which is by no means a given.
A couple of months ago I bought new Magic Mouse with USB-C charging port, at first I was excited, finally Apple released new revision with USB-C port. Next thing I know scroll doesn’t work at all. And the mouse doesn’t stand stably on my desk. After hours of talking to Apple representatives at the phone call, they decided they will ship a replacement part.
I was so happy to finally have replacement delivered. But wait, exactly same scrolling issue doesn’t stop following me. After a little bit research on the internet, I realized it’s known issue to Apple already, which Apple still refuses to fix. Long story short - one needs to update macOS to 15.1 to fix that.
The Apple experience seems very luck based. Sometimes it goes great but if you hit the perfect storm of issues you're just totally out of luck
I also do agree that their modern software is shockingly bad, and it is strange because, as others note, what they offer to third parties is generally quite good so third party applications are often quite amazing. It seems like Apple are unable to develop for themselves
I fail to see the quality crisis if you’re just sticking with iPhone and Mac.
I’ve yet to find a better phone+computer setup if what you’re looking for are good quality native apps, integration between pc and handset, and a usable Unix environment for programming and other work.
Nothing infuriates me more than the fact that when you get a missed call, tapping on the call notification doesn't call them back, instead it takes you to their contact!!!
What's worse is that this is a regression, so they actively made life a little more difficult for everyone in the new release.
Personally, I prefer that. I don't want to talk to people, usually. I want to go to the contact, see what communication forms we have in common, and send them a message.
I bet that they A/B tested this on users and this is not just a random change.
Perhaps this should be an option but I far prefer that tapping on a notification not do something that potentially notifies the sender that I saw the notification, certainly not calling them. I want to initiate that action knowingly and intentionally.
I worked at Apple. I was literally driven out of town due to my constructive criticism of how terrible our software and processes were. There was zero focus on quality and maintainability. ( I worked at Google and Netflix).
could this complaint be generalized to the software quality of anything that's been built upon for many years? as the churn in the workforce happens you lose nuance and expertise and systems become more and more complex to maintain and understand. management demands new features be slapped atop legacy systems. they want software to ship faster (look at how AAA game developers use nvidia AI features as a crutch to ship unoptimized games).
i often think back to ryan dahls infamous nodejs rant:
"There will come a point where the accumulated complexity of our existing systems is greater than the complexity of creating a new one. When that happens all of this shit will be trashed."
A company like apple can look at all their code, pull out the LCD, and build that directly into their hardware, or at least allow user programmable microcode, no need to keep doing these general branch prediction strategies that are complex and a security nightmare.
Who the hell I'm I kidding, they can't even make sure that the apple logo isn't cut off the top of the screen.
Alot of people in this thread are claiming that it's a race to the bottom to deliver features the fastest, aside from hardware, and the admittible many features needed to create a seemless ad, what software new gamechanging software features have Apple (or any company) made in the last 5 years? AI? The Camera App? Continuity? Messaging? LOL sorry but none of that is interesting in the slightest.
The big sign of Apple’s deterioration has been iOS 18. It is a disastrous launch with a terrible photos app, worse autocorrect, bugs, … on their flagship product. Hard to trust where they go from here. At some point it’ll affect security.
You're only now realizing this? Software quality at Apple has been in a freefall since Cook's appointment. If you sincerely think iOS 18 is the turning point, then I don't even understand what you use your iPhone for.
I was just thinking the other day how there is a ton of friction now after they moved on from skewmorphic. Say what you will but I always knew exactly where my specific home directory folders were because they looked so distinct in the finder sidebar. Now I have to actually read the damn folder names because everything looks the same.
Huh let me guess: it is Apple Intelligence causing it
Now while it is true that some aspect of the Apple experience suck, my experience is that Windows and Linux are also sucking more (Linux less than MS, but still, not helpful)
I definitely would want more transparency for Apple but this is one of the things they "no can do", they just fix it one day (usually) and off you go.
Mail on iOS doesn’t even have push any more, the new Photos app is garbage, Music randomly spews “content not available” errors and works remarkably poorly with mobile data for a mobile app, watchOS is so chock-full of bugs and glitches that just go unfixed major version after major version etc.
It’s pretty bad. Somehow most other software is even worse. Genuinely impressive at this point.
Agreed; Apple's software quality is rapidly approaching unacceptability.
I'm in a regular video call friend group, every day we call and chat for a bit. A few days ago we "officially" decided to just call in Discord instead of Facetime. Discord's mobile app has its own set of issues, for sure, but we would regularly hit an issue with Facetime where especially as people join and leave the call, other peoples' microphones would become shadow muted; it would look like its sending audio from their end, but no one else could hear them. For non-video participants, this could mean minutes of not being heard before realizing the issue, leaving the call, and re-joining, which fixes things.
Also Facetime related: If you use your iPhone as a continuity camera for your Mac, if you get a Facetime call while your iPhone and Mac are close to each other, you cannot answer the call on your iPhone. If you think about the implications of that, it sounds crazy; like "there's no way that got through testing", but its true. Your iPhone displays an ungrokable error message that took me, a tech guy, several Googles to understand what was going on. The only option in this error message is "Disconnect". You click that, and you're taken back to the home screen. If the other person has not disconnected from the Facetime call, you can manually launch the Facetime app and join the call from there. But if they've left it, you just missed the call, and it does this Every Single Time. I had to turn off Continuity Camera. Its crazy!
That's just the latest ones; the list of issues is really quite endless, and it only gets longer the more of Apple's services you decide to inflict upon yourself.
I would disagree with the conclusion. It sounds like a faulty line of hardware on the M2 Air then.
My partner is the IT manager at a school where they have over 1000 iPads (10th gen) deployed with iOS 18 and there are no reported issues like this. We ourselves have iPad Pro M2's without these issues which we both use all day every day. Our kids have 3x 10th gen iPads too. No issues.
YMMV but they just work for us and the software, which not perfect, is probably the least shit out there.
I mean the trash heap in my office is mostly Surface machines as a comparison...
It is a software issue, I also have the same issue on my M2 pro.
The issue is, that each new line you draw, gets added to a group. This will start causing lagging at some point of time.
If I highlight my whole screen in Notes or Freeform and use the `separate` tool to remove all things from the group. The lagging immediately stops. You can read more about this here [1].
Apple has many issues with “scalability” like this. Another one for instance is the imessage and its replies. If you use them too much (50 replies to message or more) it start not rendering some of the messages.
This suggests a type of culture, where things are important to look nice in demos, but are not actually usable daily.
Correct. Which is the point. The user complains that the problem is a software crisis when the software is fine on completely different hardware. That would suggest by elimination it's not a software problem, or is a software problem tied to particular hardware.
(incidentally they mostly use USB-C apple pencils and some clone ones when they lose them and the parents don't want to buy a genuine replacement one)
It is a software problem when a pen is used; you aren't using a pen so it doesn't impact you.
I don't understand why you thought it was constructive to point out the difference between a "software problem Vs. a software problem only when the pen is used." The article was very clear on that point already, it isn't adding to the conversation.
A good writeup of just a smaller subsection of my grievances with Apple under Cook's recent leadership: stellar hardware increasingly hobbled by bungled software.
Funny enough, I had the exact issue the OP had with my M1 iPad and Notes, writing down Kubernetes coursework and notes by hand to try and make it "stick" better mentally (an entirely different post, someday) only for Notes to crash, losing most of my work since the last time I opened the app. It got so bad that I was regularly synchronizing and duplicating notes to preserve my work ahead of the next crash, and splitting notes up into quarter-chapters to reduce the likelihood of app crashes and iPad overheating.
Apple has been so feature-focused to keep up with shareholder demands and industry fads, that they've neglected the core user experience. iTunes used to be the best way to organize and consume music, and nobody has really taken up that mantle since Apple abandoned it in favor of their streaming service. Same with local media and shared libraries, now tucked away into obscure apps in favor of more streaming platform priority.
That feature-focus extends to general OS stability as well. Safari gulping down battery life on my iPhone because it's not properly suspending tabs anymore. iPad suddenly no longer charging without any error message or warning until a reboot is triggered or the battery completely dies. Siri responding as far away as physically possible from the actual speaker, including on devices I don't even own, bypassing multiple other devices that stand between the speaker and the responding device. The AppleTV needs weekly reboots because apps don't load video streams properly, giving a black screen with audio or an HDCP error message despite every other device in the chain showing it's the AppleTV not engaging HDCP. HomePods suddenly ceasing music playback without any command to do so, often mid-song.
It's just getting worse and worse, to the point (pre-RIF) I was seriously looking into an honest-to-god HiFi to replace stereo homepods in my bedroom. I've already ditched the Music app in favor of Plex's Music App (don't even get me started on how awful it is, but it's still better than Apple Music), I've all but given up engaging in music discovery via CarPlay, and I've long since moved local media onto a Plex Server in lieu of a single, simple, efficient iTunes library. That's just the media side of things, too.
Don't get me wrong, Apple's kit is still lightyears better than an equivalent Windows 11/Android setup, especially for my family members who don't want to wrangle with confusing UX and have largely moved into a streaming-only lifestyle - though even they're increasingly frustrated with Apple's updates breaking things or forcing them to rework their processes.
But that only works for so long before users get so sick and tired of it, that they'll take a chance on an upstart competitor.
Author here, crashing is another issue I have with notes, but it's more sporadic.
> Apple's kit is still lightyears better than an equivalent Windows 11/Android setup
That's sadly true, but I think as users/power users we shouldn't settle for the "best of the worst", when it's clear that the direction of Apple software quality took a dramatic shift.
My personal pet peeve is how Apple used to be the Best of the Best in photography, including Dolby Vision HDR support for both video and still images, but now their software has failed to catch up to Chrome and fails at the most trivial operations.
As a random example: It is impossible to use any non-Mac device to produce a HDR image that an Apple device can handle correctly:
JPEG XL is "supported". Narrator: No it isn't. The point of this file format is proper HDR support, but Apple loads it as an 8-bit SDR image no matter what.
AVIF is "supported" and even loads as HDR... on one device only. You can't forward such an image via any iOS or MacOS app. It becomes a non-picture file attachment.
My Nikon Z8 can generate glorious HDR HEIF files -- the native Apple image format -- which doesn't work either. Why? Because Apple software can't handle "HEIF", they can only handle the incredibly specific tiny subset of it that very specifically the iOS Camera app produces. Nothing else works properly, or even at all.
You can spend thousands on a camera, thousands on an iPhone or iPad, thousands on a Macbook and... they can't handle pictures. PICTURES!
Meanwhile a $500 TV from ALDI will happily show me HDR images in a dozen formats because they use Chrome OS or Google TV.
but the hardware premium is kinda real... i have been using my macbook air 11 daily for 10 years (I am writing this comment on it), and it works flawlessly. somehow i don't think other brands are so well made, or they weren't so well made 10 years ago.
I don't think you can update any 10-year-old windows computer to the latest version of windows (11) with all security patches via official microsoft channels.
(Also, lol @ "via official Apple channels", you're aware Open Core Legacy Patcher is a thing and have hedged against people mentioning it.)
Not 10 years old, but I have a 2017 laptop that updated to Windows 11 just fine. It's somewhat slow though and I enjoy the dual-booted Linux on it more.
You can easily patch a config file in Windows and install it on old hardware and get regular updates as usual.
OCLP is more complicated and limited as it's not a "some manifest config limitation", but actual support parts of OS being removed, so they have a big lag and a bunch of issues, and limit your updates
So yeah, no contest comparision between Mac and Win
I consider the WinBootMate thing suggested in your second link to be similar to OCLP. Third party solutions to enable installing on hardware the vendor doesn't want you installing it on.
Did you even notice that the link marked as solution is a third party software vendor?????? They charge money for that solution.
Microsoft does let's you bypass it (Regardless of them putting up a disclaimer) so the example stands, you can do it hardware and software wise without losing updates or security*
Microsoft removed the mandatory requirement, so now instead of refusing to install it just gives a disclaimer that it's "unsupported" as per the linked page
So you can install Vanilla Windows 11, no third party, on decade old hardware without losing anything other than performance (And an annoying disclaimer)
Apple is just milking the market at this point. They are the Phone Company from the sketch ( https://vimeo.com/355556831 ). Literally.
macOS is another example. The System Settings menu is a hot garbage now, its search is literally unusable. For example, try to look for "shortcuts".
Then there are constant popup windows asking me to approve file access or some other BS. I can't do that permanently anymore, it's just for up to 30 days.
Another annoyance: it's impossible to speed up animations after the switch from Intel to ARM. This makes spaces literally unusable for me. I gave up and got a second monitor as a result.
The sad thing about this is that in the Android ecosystem, you are likely to get just as shitty software on a much, much shittier hardware. You cannot have nice things. Oh, and just buy a new one while we're at it, lmao.
About a year ago I changed from android to ios, thinking id have better integration with my laptop.
A year on and my main take away is that ios is slow, buggy and has frustrating ux. The over use of modals and no consistent pattern for going back are frustrating. The UI lagging and glitching out and application crashes are so much worse and more frequent than I had on an old pixel.
I dont think ill stick with ios for my next phone but i dont plan on replacing it for 3 years so it's going to be a frustrating 4 years with a supposedly premium device that is objectively an inferior product.
This has been going on for years. I used to do a lot of iOS development, and have an eye for bugs. Almost every Apple app/service has been regressing in quality.
Take basic functionality - a phone app (calling). After certain audio sessions use (calling via WhatsApp) I can’t make regular calls over cellular - the UI app immediately cancels the call. Only reboot helps.
Or notes - for many years/iOS versions, they lived with a bug where a text note may just become blank - and only restarting Notes app makes it visible again.
Or AppStore - if an app has to be updated (I have auto updates off) - and I press Update - it gets downloaded, installed - and then AppStore is back to showing “Update” button! If you just go to the app, it’s a new version. But if you press that “Update”, it will redo update from scratch.
Sometimes I’m so frustrated, and thinking of my options - it’s either move to Android, or go get hired at Apple with a mandate to fix bugs in various products… but knowing Apple secrecy culture/silos, it’s not going to work, and requires change in their hiring process/perf review/QA.
The article makes some great points about how iOS software is regressing, but it still feels so much better than almost any other software I use on a daily basis.
I’ve only ever noticed maybe like a few actually bothersome bugs in the however many years I’ve been using iPhones which is pretty impressive.
Anyway, hope they get it together. Performance and optimization are a very difficult and very thankless job that might not get you promoted the same way cool sexy feature work does. Such is corporate life I guess.
> can’t make regular calls over cellular
That's extremely serious because the call you're trying to make could be an emergency call. A bug like that would have top priority in the org I used to work in. If I'd had to guess it cancels the call because there's a crash in a process somewhere. Possibly because of audio handover between apps.
Notes is so bad. Often copy and paste just breaks. It will copy some string of characters from a different part of the note than you selected, until you restart.
Reminders too. For at least 5 years, creating multiple reminders in a certain order will not create multiple reminders, and will just append the text to the end of the first one. Surprise — hope you didn’t set any important reminders in that batch!
And the great thing about their standardization between iOS and macOS code means the exact same bugs exist in both versions. Yay.
> Sometimes I’m so frustrated, and thinking of my options - it’s either move to Android, or go get hired at Apple with a mandate to fix bugs in various products…
Those aren’t options, they’re fantasies. Like dreaming of suing out of existence a company that wronged you, or fixing the world by ruling it, or winning the lottery without playing.
Android isn’t perfect either, it’s a different set of frustrations. And why would Apple ever need to hire you for that specific task, do you really believe there aren’t engineers inside just as frustrated as we are?
The way I see it, the yearly release cycle is to blame. No one inside the company has time to do anything properly anymore. Features are announced and rushed every year, and we’re reaching the point where by the time something which was announced at a WWDC is out of beta, we’re preparing for the next one.
What these companies need to do is slow down and stop chasing every shiny thing. You know, like Apple used to do with macOS. Tim Cook needs to go.
While I agree that it's Tim Cook's responsibility to set the course and influence the culture, I doubt a new CEO will be able to so.
I'm not saying nobody can be like Steve Jobs, but Steve Jobs was an anomaly when it comes to C-Levels, and even when it comes to management in general, at least from reading things like www.folkore.org and interviews with people who worked with him.
And I'm not even talking about talent or vision or whatever, it's just about saying no to pointless features that are there for someone's ego or so that someone can get a promotion.
Tim Cook overrides the advice of high-ranking employees in the name of greed and profit, even when warned such decisions will sour long term relationships.
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2025/02/26/testimony-on-external-pur...
I’m not saying anyone will be better than Tim Cook, I’m saying he’s actively bad. Will his successor be actively bad too? Maybe, but the sooner we find out, the better.
Why is this stuff not reported in the mainstream media?
The general publics opinion of Apple is that they are golden and untouchable, the best tech company out there. The reality is much different.
> Why is this stuff not reported in the mainstream media?
- Because a lot of journalists are Apple fanbois
- The press publishers don't want to sour relationships with Apple (because of advertising deals)
- Publishing bad things about Apple would infuriate the many Apple fanbois among the readers, causing a shitstorm against the medium
Tim Cook strikes me as a bean counter.
Back in the 90s, Apple seemed to have a lot of these same problems. Software quality was declining and they had real trouble executing on anything strategic. They aren't there yet, but they certainly seem to be headed down a similar path.
Most consumer electronics companies are like this. It's not only a yearly release cycle but a Christmas release cycle. New Shiny Thing has to be in the stores by late November so all development has to be done in August so the factories can start producing the first trial batches.
I never buy products when they are first released. I prefer to wait at least 3-4 months so that production has had time to tweak all the settings and weed out the funky first component deliveries. Also the software devs will have fixed the worst bugs by then.
I have been saying this for years: consistent deterioration of ACs/DoDs. There is no limit to scrum and especially the constant refinement to ACs/DoDs.
Yes, you may implement a solution more efficiently by not overengineering it. But at some point constant seek to reduce "complexity" so that more features fit into sprint (funny how story point measure complexity, not time, but sprint is sized in both time and SP capacity) is bound to hit feature completeness. Once you cross over that metaphorical Rubicon it's game over - quality starts to slowly go downhill.
You will not notice it immediately. That edge case that was ignored may not surface for months or years. It may take several idiosyncrasies to line up for a feature to be declared FUBAR. At some point that technical debt does bite you back, but at that point the process (tm) has already optimized away most if not all opportunities for deep refactorings fixing previous rushes to deliver.
> What these companies need to do is slow down and stop chasing every shiny thing
Who is dealing in fantasies now, friend? :)
Apple's software really isn't in crisis. It's just very low quality relative to what people who've written software for a living know to be possible.
But it doesn't matter - Apple is a prestigious jobs guarantee program for rich kids first, entity that delivers value to consumers second.
It's not that they're chasing shiny things. They're cosplaying competence and they genuinely don't know it. They think they're actually competent, elite really, because they attend 'elite' schools, get good grades and go work at the 'best' places.
They have it ingrained in them that anything a poor person says can be disregarded because poor people are losers, because they're poor. They're an unintentional suicide cult. They genuinely don't know it. You can't convince them of anything because they are rich. If you complain - go see a therapist, there's something wrong with you.
You can youtube search Garys Economics. It's a poor kid who slipped into the rich kids club and defected. It's quite eye opening.
> Who is dealing in fantasies now, friend?
I said they need to, not that I think they will. But they have in the past. There is a reason Snow Leopard is still lauded today.
> It's just very low quality relative to what people who've written software for a living know to be possible.
No, it’s low quality relative to what Apple users came to expect. There was a time when “it just works” was an aspirational goal which permeated their decisions and you could see the results.
> Apple is a prestigious jobs guarantee program for rich kids first, entity that delivers value to consumers second.
What a bizarre conspiracy theory. No company gets to that stratospheric level of success by making hiring incompetent rich kids their primary goal.
Feel free to tell me where I said it was a primary point.
Did you read that sentence and conclude that I must think a company only has two goals and thus the first must be primary?
I moved out of iPhone because of one such thing: the call log can only be 100 items long, like what? The most powerful processor ever, hundreds of GB and i can't see who I called last month?? I was done at that moment.
That doesn’t seem to be correct (any more?) I just spent a while scrolling back through the call log.
It goes back to 2019 - certainly more than 100 calls
Current head of Apple hardware is in the line of CEO succession. If he becomes CEO at some point in the future, could he have a positive influence on software culture within Apple?
In my experience, hardware people in the top decision making roles are the cause of degradation of software quality, not the solution. They often don't understand the nature of software and software product management.
Depends on the person. The CEO position is about setting a vision and hiring the right people to execute.
I have run into these same issues, it's particularly frustrating once you see a Reddit thread from a couple years ago outlining the exact issue. For a large consumer-focused company like Apple this can only be explained by ignorance.
From a developer perspective many of these inconsistencies are rooting from inconsistent access patterns - operating system (ABI?), applications (ICP?), remote (TCP, HTTP, LDAP, FTP, ...?). All of these are "execution" or "information" but have to be programmed against differently.
> this can only be explained by ignorance.
s/ignorance/apathy
On Notes:
1. If you copy some text
2. Select other text
3. Paste the text you copied to replace the selected text
Notes will crash. This has been known for years.
Also if you turn off all suggestions in Spotlight on iOS and just use it as an app launcher, it will still take seconds for Spotlight to show you the results. For something that's supposed to be an indexed look up.
I keep annual journals in Notes and I’ve noticed (on iOS) that the keyboard becomes increasingly laggy as the year drags on / as the note length increases. I can only assume they are synchronously flushing the file to disk on the main thread during the keyboard callback handler.
I don’t mean to be rude, but that’s how an iOS intern would implement it.
I can't reproduce the crash. Does it happen every time for you or only after a few times?
Select/Copy/Paste has been bad from the start on iOS, another I can’t get over is how the backspace behavior has the absolute worst timings for jumping to words and paragraphs.
>I can’t get over is how the backspace behavior has the absolute worst timings for jumping to words and paragraphs.
I wish they implemented backspace like they do with fine scrubbing on seekbars. i.e. you could move your finger up & down while holding the backspace key to select the granularity of deletion between letters, words and paragraphs.
And the auto complete on proper nouns. I'm typing someone's name and it'll often get corrected and will take more than one attempt for what you actually intended to stick.
No, Ellie isn't a typo and I didn't actually mean Emma.
Not just proper nouns. Often it tries to autocorrect a real but less-commonly-used word to a more common but completely different word.
Notes on my laptop would take minutes to load, it was only fixed in the latest macOS release, after more than a year.
I cannot reproduce that Notes crash.
There are also a bunch little of usability bugs related to selecting, copying and pasting text. The auto-complete has become more adversarial then helpful. There are bugs related to search in pdf documents in safari. There are (or at least were until recently) bugs when searching for settings in the settings app.
Can't think of any more at the top of my head ... it feels a lot like Windows, where there are a bunch of eternal bugs one just sort of knows and works around, even though it's a kind of shitty and occasionally very frustrating experience.
I had an iPhone I was fixing up. I backed up what was necessary, disconnected the old iCloud account, and created a new one to use when updating the OS. I created a spam-blocking address (mailgw) for this account. It created fine and I logged in from the phone without problem. I did the OS update, but then I got a dreaded error that it couldn't log in. I tried to log in with the account on the PC and it has been deleted. Apple deleted the account out from under the phone and now it's iCloud locked, all within less than half an hour. I called but they said I'd have to go to an Apple store and produce the original receipt. If this was really about theft, why couldn't I just regain control from the AppleID that had been logged in for years from the phone? I checked from that account but it had no option to report that the phone was fine. This was a many-year-old phone and the receipt was long gone. So Apple basically bricked the phone, with no recourse. I will never buy an Apple device again.
> why couldn't I just regain control from the AppleID that had been logged in for years from the phone?
Maybe Apple is doing this in an automated way to prevent people using several accounts for storage.
On Google Drive, if you run out of space, you can create a new account, and switch when needed.
> Maybe Apple is doing this in an automated way to prevent people using several accounts for storage.
And Apple's attempt to stop people from "stealing" a few dollars a month in storage somehow justifies bricking a $1000 piece of hardware?
Google doesn't care, because Google has WAY better anti-abuse features which cost money and so has weighed the risk of the "Google carelessly wrecks someone's online identity" headline against "someone might squeeze us for an extra 5GB of space."
Yeah personally speaking I created a separate account just for my WhatsApp backup, but once that breached 15GB as well... I caved and bought the 100GB google one plan.
Why did you create an account to update? You can just use the iPhone without logging in and can still update iOS.
This is true, but still smacks of victim-blaming.
Oh, I am not saying that apple should be able to brick your device if you log in with a throwaway account, I was just wondering why one would bother doing it.
Maybe it does but the poster was still engaging in behavior similar to someone who has stolen the phone. That said, Apple should add some controls that prevent legitimate users from triggering security checks by accident.
Here's my personal canary in the coal mine that something must be fundamentally broken in Apple's software development process:
- on a recent macOS version, right click on the desktop, select 'change wallpaper' => the new settings panel opens
- click on 'Custom Color'
- now hold and drag around the 'color cursor' in the color selection circle for a few seconds
- stop dragging and notice how the color cursor continues jumping around erratically (it's impossible to actually select the exact color you want)
- same thing happens when using the linear slider below the color circle
This bug doesn't lurk deep in some obscure part of the settings panel, it's the only way to change the desktop background color. A QA specialist would stumble over this in 5 minutes of trying to break the app.
I made it a hobby to check this bug after each OS update, it's broken since the new settings panel was introduced in Ventura. As a good citizen I also wrote a Feedback Assistent ticket (FB13805690 - 21-May-2024) with attached screen recordings and all, but of course I could just as well have sent that report into a black hole :)
My indicator for if Apple is for the customer vs for Apple is how macOS 'negotiates' YPbPr instead of RGB for non-Apple branded monitors (some LG monitors also get a pass) which results in worse color quality. I believe this to be carefully engineered to be a plausible bug rather than a real one.
BTW I have found a workaround using BetterDisplay and an EDID override (to more closely match what the monitor is actually telling macOS).
Seconding this. Feels actively anti-user even if this is just a bunch of heuristics that end up choosing the wrong thing. Honestly, why is this not a dropdown?
Related bug: macOS defaults to variable refresh rate when available instead of remembering my choice of 144hz. This is confounded by my hub (Caldigit TS3 Plus), which has trouble with variable refresh rates that result in a black screen.
The cherry on top: either I use a HDMI cable and deal with BetterDisplay forcing RGB to fix YCbCr, or a black screen when using DP through my hub due to the above bug.
Sometimes I wish Apple would get broken up just so macOS could have a chance at getting more love.
It’s very on brand for Apple to remove an option to trigger / customise something that should “just work”.
Example: iCloud Photos syncing is complete crap on macOS. If it has synced recently it’s not going to do it again. So you sit there like an idiot waiting 10 minutes for a photo you just took on your phone e to show up. When a pull to refresh or refresh button would have fixed it.
iCloud Photos syncing is crap on iOS too. iOS will randomly stop uploading photos to the cloud "to optimize performance". Every time something's not uploading, I check my iPhone settings only to find that it's "optimizing performance" again. Even if it's on a full battery and I'm barely even using it. There is no way to turn this off - you have to manually catch it every single time it decides to "optimize performance" and tell it to sync for an hour. If you took enough photos for it to take longer than that hour to upload them all, you'll have to do this multiple times as it goes right back to "optimizing performance" after that hour. Again, there is no way to turn this off.
I bought a custom HMDI dongle that forced 4k RGB HDR for my OLED LG from M1 Mac.
Interesting. Could you post a link to the dongle?
Not sure what the other guy uses, but I use this Anker with my LG OLED to get RGB 4k@120 HDR with my M1 MacBook Pro:
https://www.anker.com/products/a8317?variant=42329259475094&...
On mine, Apple TV+ (the official app as well as Safari) will refuse to play 4K through a similar adapter (VMM7100) on an OLED C2 42 from Cable Matters with the latest 120Hz supporting firmware. I assume it is because HDCP is broken. It works fine with the Mac Mini's built in HDMI. Frustratingly there is no great way to debug this, but if you open up Safari and look in the network tab, you can see the resolution of the video being streamed.
Does your adapter work at 120Hz without updating the firmware? If it does, does it support HDCP?
I'd go with a caldigit TS4 + their hdmi/dp active adapter.
> Sometimes I wish Apple would get broken up just so macOS could have a chance at getting more love.
As much as I like the integration between the phone and macOS I like the idea of desktop Mac getting more love.
The entire apple monitor settings are just awful. I have a small portable projector which accepts 4k input but just downscales it to 1080p.
I cannot get osx to actually output at 1080p, all it does is output at 4k and scale the result.
The downscaling in the projector adds input lag and just drives me crazy. I really wish they'd just let you control these things rather than poorly guessing.
I didn't know about better display, I guess I should try it and see if it can fix this problem.
Does the 1080p resolution show up if you go to Advanced > Show Resolutions as List and then tick "Show all resolutions" under the list? The resolution you are looking for is probably 1920 x 1080 (low resolution). If you choose a non "low" resolution the OS will output at 4K but scale the UI to the virtual resolution.
I JUST BOUGHT A NEW MONITOR AND WENT DOWN THIS RABBIT HOLE AHHHH Almost returned this perfectly fine monitor thanks to Apple, thank god for BetterDisplay though, actual gem of an app
I'm just glad we've moved beyond SwitchResX...
I ran into this issue with the Sonoma update. My display (4k LG) was negotiating RGB just fine before, but not anymore. The BetterDisplay workaround hasn't worked for me. The poor colors and fuzzy edges around all the text is causing eye strain too. I'm beyond furious.
I used to use an EDID patcher written in Ruby but it stopped working on some version of macOS. Contained in that script is how it patches the EDID data which is what I got to work with BetterDisplay.
FWIW, here's the hacked script[0] which only keeps the EDID data patching part. Be warned it's very hacky with the base64 EDID to be patched hard-coded in line 8 of the script. It prints out the patched EDID base64 which should be entered back into BetterDisplay (which is also where you can get the unpatched base64 EDID).
[0] https://gist.github.com/karmakaze/f795171a6a795491e754c3d092...
There is no reason why YCbCr should be visually worse than RGB if the conversion is accurate
It depends on the exact meaning of "YCbCr" and the meaning of "RGB". Is it BT.601? BT.709? BT.2020? Adobe RGB? Display P3?
Also extra fun is guaranteed if one end of the video cable is encoding with e.g. BT.601 primaries, while the other end is decoding as e.g. BT.709, or vice versa.
The same thing happens under Linux with some monitors and AMD graphics drivers. A lot of monitors have poor standards compliance (and the standards aren't great either).
My monitor has a strange EDID that requests timings with such short vblank that my GPU doesn't have time to reclock memory between frames, preventing switching to low power modes. But because I use Linux I can supply an EDID with standard timings in software, using the drm.edid_firmwire kernel boot option, which works perfectly. Linux gives you vastly more options for fixing broken things than MacOS.
I think that Apple, perhaps naively, expects display manufacturers to adhere to spec when in reality they often don’t.
Either way macOS has no trouble with my 27” 2560x1440 Asus and Alienware monitors. Both connect with 10bit RGB no problem, at least over USB-C and DisplayPort (haven’t tried HDMI).
macOS really wants to do different things for TVs vs monitors, so if it decides your monitor is a TV for whatever reason, it’ll probably prefer YCbCr and also not offer any HiDPI modes except exactly 2x
2560x1440 is a strong indicator of a monitor, but 4k over HDMI tends to get detected as a TV
I once spent hours trying to find out why apple's font rendering is so atrocious for a 1440p monitor on a m3 macbook air (reddit just keeps telling everyone to get higher resolution screens). Turns out it's related to the color scheme - the colors were fine, but the pixels are somehow located wrong, making everything look super pixelated.
BetterDisplay provided a workaround, but it needs to be selected every time the monitor is hooked up.
(I guess that's normal for Apple stuff nowadays - when I hook up my ipad to my projector, I need to tell it every single time not to use the audio output of the projector, but keep using the bluetooth speaker.)
The entire settings app rewrite is the canary of how Apple's software development process is broken, especially for the mac.
it's comically bad. the UI is a mess, the search functionality is broken, you can't resize the window horizontally. it's feels like a hello world first project in a new language type of app.
also - it's such a bummer that they have decided to shit the bed so hard on software at a moment when their hardware lineup is arguably at its pinnacle. like, the hardware has been firing on all cylinders since M1 but the software degradation is making it less and less pleasant to use.
right on the money.
To be fair, Windows really had the same type of issues going from the old Control Panel to Settings. I still get large delays for some of the screens in Windows Settings.
I think it's pretty crazy how slow a lot of the newer things in Windows 11 are. Explorer is super slow, Settings are slow. Sometimes I think even if I wanted to make things that slow (without using sleep statements), I wouldn't know how do it.
Make opening a settings page require multiple queries to Microsoft servers. That way you get lag with a bonus of variability and in the case of broken wifi, extreme lag as it waits for the connections to time out.
I'm not saying this is what happens. But it's scarily plausible and it really shouldn't be.
If it was happening, they could at least spy us asynchronously.
Windows 11 is insane to me now. Latest update pressing the button to bring up the power options (power off sleep etc) takes like 1-1.5 seconds from button press for the menu options to come up.
I’m just so done with Windows, it is complete garbage now and I don’t use that term loosely, I’ve been using it since Windows 3.1.
Chrome removed ublock origin for me today and I thought to myself why am I even on this OS anymore? What’s keeping me here? Decided to use the outrage over that to just make a clean break from Windows too.
I installed Ubuntu tonight, but this time I’m sticking with it. It already feels so good to have the software behave in a way that makes sense and isn’t some dark pattern meant to harm me and extract value somehow from me.
It also pisses me off, but I am not paying for Apple prices on personal devices, and since Slackware 2.0 back in 1995, that there is always something that makes me waste weekends on GNU/Linux, so Windows it is.
Ubuntu isn't what it used to be, unfortunately. I'm pretty much in love with Aurora [1] nowadays. It's an immutable distro (for a smartphone-like upgrade experience) based on Fedora and KDE, rock solid, sane defaults, a good selection of dev tools, proper nvidia support if you want it, and it feels really snap!
[1] https://getaurora.dev/
I already split time. I have an old Dell laptop running Ubuntu that I do a lot of types of dev on plus general browsing (I'm actually on it right now). I use Windows for games and gamedev, though as I use Godot for gamedev I could pretty easily do that on Linux as well.
Mint and/or Fedora, depending on how new your software needs to be.
Ubuntu pushing snaps like MS was the last straw.
It's not just the OS itself, where some of the slowness can at least be explained by the silo-ed nature of development and the large amount of moving parts. But even when MS gives a small-ish team free reign and a fresh start, the software is just agonizingly slow and buggy.
An example: new PowerToys https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/
The FancyZones "window snap" UI takes upwards of half a second to activate when dragging a window and the Zone Editor is at around 5s. All in all it is only very slightly less buggy than 3rd party tiling WMs like komorebic.
The PowerToysRun utility input is extremely variable, takes between 1 and 20(!) seconds. A lot of the plugins shipped with it simply don't work or have no suggestions/hints once you enter their prefix. The search relies on WindowsSearch, which is about 500x slower than https://github.com/sharkdp/fd and has not improved since Win7. Who cares, nobody ever searches for files, right? As a whole, PTRun is simply worse than https://github.com/Flow-Launcher/Flow.Launcher which uses the same UI kit as far as I can see. WTF?
The most frustrating thing with PowerToys is trying to remap keys (like caps lock to Ctrl). It feels like it's done by intercepting the keypress at runtime in the app rather than being configured at the system level, so if you happen to, say, hit your new Ctrl key when the CPU is pegged, it'll revert back to caps lock and then also get stuck. So you have to go into PowerToys to unbind the key, turn off caps lock, then rebind it.
There's another app that does this in the registry I think, but I keep forgetting the name of it.
You see it in Windows 10, as well. Seeing the "working on it" when navigating folders, as if I'm using 5400 RPM hard disk drives.
using win 7 with 5400 RPM drives... it's still fast...
I fix this by going into task manager and viciously force quitting any system process that has an enigmatic name or isn't plainly doing something I want to happen. Often it's updating Edge, or it might be indexing temp files for searching with the shitty search function that I don't use. Sometimes it's "Windows Problem Reporting" that's making things glitch and lag. Oh, sometimes there's a whole second copy of Explorer running invisibly, quitting that can help.
Is this always safe to do? I think I broke my PC once by killing some important system tasks
I don't know! It's a reckless thing to do, but satisfying. I tend to stick to killing the same relatively small set of processes, really, and have never noticed any ill effects in about a year. If I was less lazy, I'd research them all - but then I'd want to also research how to stop them running in the first place - and in some cases, like Edge, that threatens to be such a mission that I don't want to embark on it. (I have a script that's supposed to uninstall Edge, but I thought I should read and understand it before I run it, and that was months ago and I never did ... so I still have Edge.)
The answer to that is relatively easy, WinUI 3.0 being shoved into Windows, even though UWP has failed to get adoption, after so many reboots even those of us that were deep into it got pissed off and moved elsewhere, leaving the Windows team as the only group of folks still trying to push it.
Go have a tour on Github for the endless collection of issues, some of them 5 years old, when Project Reunion was announced.
The login screen and start menu both require a key press to start the process (enter pin or start typing search term) and both then drop all subsequent keystrokes for an indefinite period until they’ve finished initialising, displaying, and maybe phoning home and loading ads. It’s infuriating. It turns a simple open-loop “press win key, type search term, enter” into “press win key, wait for visual confirmation, type” which adds both computer latency and your own reaction time to the overall time taken.
But that's considered normal in the Windows world.
Unfortunately, to stay on top Apple doesn't have to do well for the customer. They only have to do better than wintel/android machines.
I wouldn't qualify it as fair, both are pretty horrible.
Tsk, copying ideas from Apple.
They rewrote many of their tools in SwiftUI.
So far, I am not willing to ship anything in SwiftUI. I don't think it's up to the task.
And it's still missing certain things Cocoa had well before 2015...
That’s ok because it’s simple enough to escape SwiftUI. Use SwiftUI for the simple bits and UIKit for the harder parts. It’s not a nice solution, but it works
I consider use of UIViewRepresentable to be a kludge, and basically removing the advantages of SwiftUI.
I know that SwiftUI has some native wrappers, like maps, but the way that SwiftUI works, is so radically different from UIKit, that I think mixing them is problematic.
I mean ok, the old one was already a bit overloaded and unwieldy, so a redesign was probably overdue and Ill give them the benefit of the doubt here but WTF is with the 1-2 second delay when switching between the menus in there? Are they doing web requests upon opening every settings page or what? This is real amateur hour.
They appear to be launching each settings screen as a separate app and retaining it until Settings is quit. How many resources this requires, or how much this contributes to the lag, I don't know, but...
Open Activity Monitor, and type in System Settings into the search. Then open the Settings app and press the down arrow key through all of the menus. You'll notice that each one of them appears as their own line item in Activity Monitor until you quit Settings, and if you keep going up and down through the menus, it'll (probably) get slower and slower; it seems like there's a memory leak or something going on there, and my hunch is that each old settings menu was thinly wrapped in a SwiftUI view and gets launched as soon as you click its nav item.
That’s not too different than the old app, but instead of .app bundles, the UIs and stuff were bundled in .prefPane bundles.
They're not .app bundles, they're .appex (extension!) bundles from /System/Library/ExtensionKit/.
Yea some other commenter mentioned that they most likely re-wrote the whole thing Swift.
So is Swift just too crappy for this kind of UI, that accesses low level system stuff? or are the devs just incompetent? Who knows…
SwiftUI is not swift. It's about framework not language. But even that doesn't matter
I think Apple has decent QA for low level stuff (remember how they quietly converted every iphone to APFS and back just to test that it will work later) but bad QA for final GUI.
Most of cocoa/objc stuff was written long ago and back when QA was better. If this was cocoa and objective c today it would be equally buggy.
Are they doing web requests upon opening every settings page or what?
At least some of them are actually web pages:
https://blog.jim-nielsen.com/2022/inspecting-web-views-in-ma...
Hmm, and using React even! No wonder it’s slow and bloated.
You gotta wonder if this has been a reaction to a shrinking Cocoa/ObjC and SwiftUI talent pool
Could be that nowadays a lot of UI code will probably converge on web-first stuff like React, since it has a larger talent pool, as you said, and is inherently cross platform. Microsoft's newer apps like Teams are also built in React.
I use an iPhone 13 mini, and I experience no delays within the settings app.
I was talking about the settings app in macOS.
Oh, I see. There is a slight delay (closer to 1 second or less) switching menus inside of Settings on my M3 Air.
There is no reason for the delay to be more than 100ms. The 1 sec delay must be due to some extremely inefficient lazy init or a bunch of io happening when you switch between screens
We’re (largely) not running OSes from spinning metal anymore, so even if there were some I/O that needs to happen (there shouldn’t be), a second would be an indication that the app was doing it badly. A modern SSD will read multiple gigabytes in a second, if the reads are sequential and you don’t wait for each one to complete before starting another. Unfortunately, we as a species have not figured out the programming tools necessary to make that natural.
Mine is, on iOS:
* in safari private mode, open image picker
* switch to different app (e.g. go to WhatsApp to save a new image)
* go back to safari
the image picker can now no longer be spawned from that safari private tab, you'll have to open a new tab to re enable the image picker.
I can't repro this on macOS 15.3.1 with an Apple Studio Display. What display are you using? It's likely something related to color space translation.
Edit: Repro-ed using the additional steps you mentioned below. As someone who handles external bug reports and writes them, it's so often the case that there are additional steps or a specific start state required, which both prevents reproducing the bug and narrows the affected user base.
On the most recent episode of ATP podcast, an anonymous person wrote in to say that when they worked at Apple until ~2013, there was effectively no QA team on macOS.
Granted that was over a decade ago, and "no QA team" doesn't mean no testing, but given the numerous bugs in macOS today, and that they almost never get fixed, I'm not surprised.
(FWIW, I do not experience this bug you mentioned)
If you look at the macOS feature history, it's pretty clear that the bulk of the team got shifted to iPhone in 2007 and never really recovered. The widely acknowledged Snow Leopard high water mark happened shortly after.
To be fair, Apple can still pull off the occasional amazing feat of vertical integration -- HDR, APFS, keeping audio latency under control despite the relentless assault of apathy from all directions -- but they never had the same level of consistent drive forward, at least not until a year or two ago when the big push for AI integration started. Apple gets ragged on here, but I think their integration is actually some of the best. They were putting neural cores in chips back when that sort of thing got mocked, not lauded, and every step has been thoughtfully tied in rather than airdropped from a ChatGPT science fair project. But they never got good at building or deploying leading-edge models themselves; I hope they turn it around because this is important.
Snow leopard is fondly remembered but was buggy has hell when initially released. It got good, with time…
I wish for snow leopard strategy to be applied to modern scaled operating systems. Let's all agree to spend a year fixing and optimizing rather than making existing functionality worse or launching half baked ideas.
Perhaps I was just lucky, but 10.6.0 was equally stable as 10.5.8 for me. It did improve with time, and there’s little opposition to 10.6.8 being the best OS X release there was (except maybe 10.9.5), but for me at least it was a great OS even at launch.
iOS becomes good a year after release, then Apple stops you from installing stable version, forcing install of unstable version with unwanted features.
What I tend to do is to only install/buy late in the yearly cycle, then stay on that for a year.
Good approach. Sadly, it only lasts a few months before iOS with maximum hardening (lockdown mode + Apple Configurator supervised) falls to another zero day. Then the only option is DFU reinstall, which forces unstable iOS install.
That may be unlikely. Mark Gurman reported recently for Bloomberg News that “people within Apple’s AI division now believe that a true modernized, conversational version of Siri won’t reach consumers until iOS 20 at best in 2027.”
That's a bummer to hear. They have the money to buy talent and they really ought to be able to pull this off inside of 2025. But if there's no will, there's no way.
Their modus operandi is usually to wade in late with a better solution. remember how awful bluetooth was until they applied it well?
That sounds prudent. There's no reason for them to continue this embarrassment of cramming the product full of worse-than-useless "AI" features. Wait until you can separate the good from the bad from the ugly and choose to just do it good.
I thought APFS had all kinds of problems in the beginning.
HDR was a one-hit-wonder, and has dramatically fallen behind the competition.
See my longer comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43249634
I was in a QA role on MacOS in 2010-2013. There isn’t a QA team, rather each group of developers and EM had a QA embedded with them.
I think they mean, having a whole bunch of people doing end-to-end user-scenario tests all-day - like videogame playtesters - whereas what you’re describing sounds more like SDET work.
You're correct ... but then various teams took various measures to try to get rid of QA. So it's spotty.
I worked at Apple on Mac OS X until 2008. For QA, Bertrand believed in a lightweight touch, with dedicated QA staffing only at the top of the stack (plus a few key places like the filesystem), with the idea that any bugs will bubble up and be found through real-world usage. Most QA was informal, through heavy dogfooding.
You felt a real sense of ownership to the thing that you worked on. You worked hard and fixed bugs because it felt like it mattered, because you thought about how e.g. your mom would end up using the product, and also Steve Jobs would see it, so it had to be great. Also, teams were small. Something would involve only 1-2 people, and then we would look over at Redmond and they'd have dozens of people working on the same thing. The need-to-know secrecy was not just for PR value; it helped keep circles of communication tight, cutting out a lot of noise, so you could just focus. The organization was stable (and relatively flat, around 5 levels from junior engineer to SJ). I think in my 9 years or so there, there were no major reorgs. Avie phased himself out and retired, and Bertrand moved up. The only major disruption was when the iPhone project happened.
Release cycles were annual. Throughout most of the release cycle, it was pretty free up to each team and engineer to decide what to work on and how to prioritize it. Near the end of a release, it would get more and more strict on what you were allowed to change, up to the point where Bertrand sometimes would even ask to see code diffs.
I don't really know what is going on over there now. They have moved to a more agile approach, with more frequent integration checkpoints. In theory this should be better, but I suspect there's less sense of ownership and more of a feeling of a software factory. But it's probably mostly to do with the fact that the systems are way more complex, both the tech and the org, with way more moving parts. Even the programming language itself (Swift) is a moving target. I know (from talking to friends) there's a lot more politics and career-building going on, the kind of corporate douchebaggery that would not have been tolerated under Steve Jobs. People are thinking about RSUs and their promotions, rather than the products.
Ultimately, I think it boils down to this observation by jwz at Netscape, that there's "two kinds of people: those who want to go work for a company to make it successful, and those who want to go work for a successful company." Post-iPhone, Apple has filled up with the latter. A majority of the people at Apple now didn't work there under SJ, and the senior management who did experience that is now aging and retiring. At least from the outside, as a customer and end-user, it feels obvious that the founder-led product-obsessed culture is gone.
The Feedback Assistant issue you mentioned is probably one of the worst aspects of their software ecosystem. I haven't had a response on a single ticket that I've filed in there. It feels like an abandoned program, which is terrible UX considering its purpose.
A few years ago, I filed a Feedback Assistant bug report regarding an issue I was experiencing in Final Cut. In response, I was contacted by Final Cut developers who worked with me to replicate the issue and then shipped a fix.
Just one anecdote, but some reports definitely get looked at.
I had the same happen for a bug that would toggle off "Do not create a new Apple Ad Identifier Code" (or whatever it was called). It meant that even if you explicitly opted out of Apple's Ad tracking, you would get opted back in with almost every iOS update.
I assume this would have landed them in hot waters with EU privacy regulators, so they were very keen to replicate the bug and then have me check if it no longer happened.
On the other hand, the "first screenshot fails to display screenshot preview and doesn't flash the screen" has been in iOS for 3 versions now. I've reported it thrice, and no one has given the tickets a second look, marked it DUPLICATE, or anything. And every time I mention it, at least 3-4 other people comment on also experiencing the bug, so I assume Apple must be pretty aware.
Do you know how to reliably replicate the iOS screenshot bug? It occasionally happens to me but I haven't been able to decipher a pattern.
Sadly, no. It is more rare to happen right after a reboot though.
My suspicion is that there's a really gnarly race condition as the root cause, and they haven't been able to find it.
The Pro Apps team is more focused on customer happiness since it’s more niche and high-value-users.
Ya they are competing hard. They are core Apple Value.
Feedback Assistant is a UI for Radar.
You will never get a response to tickets unless it is affecting a lot of people and they need more information e.g. crash reports.
They are all read/triaged though.
Can confirm.
For what its worth, I can't reproduce this on 15.3 (24D60). I don't have a "Custom color" option. I see "Colors" and I click a Plus button to add a new color. Also I have my system connected to a caldigit dock and I'm using a mouse, not the trackpad.
I am on 15.3.1 and when I attempt it, it stays in place on the color I selected without issue.
Desktop icons snapping to the grid has been broken forever too. Every once in a while I'll have a space in the "grid" that just won't accept anything to be placed in it.
And god, don't even get me started on how the icons rearrange themselves when you're organizing your home screen / control center. I can't believe they actually shipped it like that and still haven't made it any better.
Oh, I envy you, I have the exact opposite problem. Sometimes new icons start stacking up one over the other on the top right corner.
If you try moving one of the icons anywhere, it snaps back to the top right corner right away.
I haven't found a fix. The only fix is moving the icons away from the Desktop into another folder using a Finder window.
That is actually a feature called ‚Stacks‘. Open the context menu on your desktop and de-select ‚use stacks‘.
Can't reproduce. Second one this thread where someone had this error "for years" but I can't reproduce. Smells of a setting that's been migrated for years from an old version, as where I'm writing from is a clean macbook with a clean account (M3, about a year old now).
EDIT: can repro. But it's very important to note: you need to have a color selected already. So select a color with the + sign, close the app, open it, top right click custom color, and then the bug appears, although not like you describe: the color selection is easy, it jumps around for 20ms during dragging. If this is what we call "low quality" I'm happy to stay on Mac.
Might be a reason why it wasn't fixed if you didn't include that vital step in your repro.
Just tested on M1 Pro, 15.0 (Settings version) on Sonoma.
After initial custom color selection by clicking on the "+" (which works fine) and then reopening the Window to click "Custom Color" and then selecting the color again... it doesn't just jump for 20ms - it goes into full on psychotic flash jump behavior and basically continues to do so hands-off for 5 entire seconds before it stops at a random color.
There is 2 options now:
1) nobody has ever tested this workflow at Apple, automated or not.
2) it was tested and discovered but then pushed into the backlog as non-priority. Here the question arises - for how long?
The bug probably generates zero lost dollars so nobody at Apple cares anymore. THIS is what used to be different.
> A QA specialist would stumble over this in 5 minutes of trying to break the app.
Yes, but code reviewers signed off on it, our unit tests have 100% code coverage and they all passed. It must be okay.
Fewer QA means more $100,000 bonuses to overworked Apple devs (2nd hand experience).
Successfully reproduced. Rough. Maybe they counted on people bailing out after attempting to trudge through the sloppy mess that is the newish Settings app before they even got to the Change wallpaper section, forgetting that there was another path.
And that also raises a huge issue: The problem isn't just functional defects, but also design defects and regressions. The new Settings panel is pretty much universally hated, from all the feedback I've seen. Apple is spending time dicking around with things that already worked and that will not drive sales through changes... so WTF? This faffing points to a major priority-setting problem within the firm.
Look at the state of Xcode, a tool that's fundamental to the iPhone's appeal. Every developer knows that this thing needs a massive rewrite. The word is that nobody within Apple even understands it thoroughly anymore, so it's way past time to strap it on and build a modern tool from the ground up that's maintainable, instead of slapping band-aids on Project Builder indefinitely. Come on, Apple, you can afford to throw resources at this for a year and just get it DONE.
Meanwhile, Apple is letting open, "urgent" QA personnel requisitions sit unfilled for YEARS. We can all see the results.
Go back to Project Builder :)
What is this "Custom Color"? I clicked the "+" icon to open the color picker and did as described and I cannot reproduce this.
Sequoia 15.3.1 (24D70)
You need to close and reopen the setting after adding a color. Then in the top right there will be a custom color button.
Wooow indeed. I was just about to post "can't replicate it", but now I can.
It seems the difference is that with the "custom color" button, Settings applies the colour directly to the background, whereas the plus button at the bottom only applies it when you're done. Applying it directly seems to be computationally expensive (ass various elements of the UI need to figure out whether to render their text in black or white, depending on the colour - would be my guess at least).
Interesting, yeah. It doesn't happen when adding a new color to the "Colours" row at the bottom even though this happens with the same color selection UI widget.
I see this Custom Colour thingie at the top-right corner of the Wallpaper section, above a "Show on all Spaces" checkbox and left of a fairly big representation of the current desktop background.
After a bit of tinkering: this Custom Colour element is replaced with something else depending on the current background mode. If you selected a wallpaper image, it shows the name of the wallpaper. If you select a predefined colour, it shows the name of the color. When adding a custom colour, it will show an interactive element which allows to change the color in place, and that shows the buggy behaviour for me.
Ok, this at least explains why other people don't stumble over this as an obvious bug, I assumed it would be obvious, because the first thing I always do on a new Mac is to customize the background color by right-clicking the desktop, and since that moment I have that buggy Custom Colour element sitting there.
Not a great UX either way though.
PS: ...and now after adding a new custom color via the to bottom row of predefined colors, the bug in the 'Custom Colour' widget is gone and nobody will believe me it was ever there. Great :D
PPS: nope, it's coming back after going through the 'desktop => right-click => change wallpaper...' route again, phew.
I tried it, and apparently if you click if from the "+" button, it works totally okay for this popup and subsequent opening of that custom color popup, BUT, if you close the settings, open them again and press the "Custom Colour" colour directly, you will enter the bugged one.
Closing and reopening Settings seems to be the missed requirement. I'd disagree with the original assertion that a pro tester would find this in five minutes. The steps to repro are not nearly as simple as originally implied. In fact, they are narrow enough that I'm willing to forgive Apple missing it. (Not fixing it, OTOH, after it's been reported...)
Yup, I've been following along and I also finally got the bugged one by: reopening Change Wallpaper after having closed it with a custom color being selected; and then clicking "custom color".
In a way it's a perfect little example of how a bug can seem obscure to some (most) users/developers but seem glaring and unacceptable to a few (the few who happen to use the relevant feature a lot).
If some engineer at Apple ever gets to fixing this, that would make an exceptional story! Really interesting WHY these circumstances exactly lead to the bugged popup, I can't even imagine what's going wrong there.
I don't see Custom Color anywhere. Does anyone have a SS of where I should be looking? I'm on 15.3.1.
It is not straightforward – first, you need to choose a custom colour via Wallpaper settings menu Colours section, by clicking on "+" button and choosing any custom colour, THEN, at the top section of this settings menu, a "Custom Colour" box appears with your chosen colour. IF you close the settings, and open them again, clicking on this custom colour will open the bugged popup, where dragging the cursor around is certainly taking more frames that it should, resulting in it lagging crazy
This is an incredibly tiny bug in a component that dates back to NeXT [1], but you should use Feedback Assistant and report to Apple.
[1]: http://euclid.psych.yorku.ca/SCS/Gallery/colorpick.html
Where does the link you posted say anything about a bug?
I’ll grant I might just be mole-eyesing it, it’s been a long day.
It doesn't - just a source for the component having existed in its current form since the NeXT days.
I was able to reproduce this, but only by following your very specific set of instructions. Never in a million years would I have found this on my own.
Lol, I can reproduce it now, it's hilarious. Thanks for pointing it out.
Are you on Apple Silicon? Those are some of the weird parts of the OS that need to offer both an Intel and Apple version since apps can call it.
Try as I might for the last 30 minutes, having read all the other comments in this thread so far, I can't reproduce this on 15.3.1.
Did you try it with numerous pointing devices, or one in particular? It took only one try on a trackpad, M3 MBP
I only tried a trackpad.
Having now retried it, I wasn't able to reproduce it until re-launching the wallpaper selection screen, then it was chaotic again. Bizarre.
I wasn’t able to replicate that bug on my Mac, but when I tried to do so I ran into an instance of another bug that has been annoying me for many years: windows that open far away on the screen from where I clicked. Here is where the color picker appeared on my screen after I clicked on the custom color button in the change wallpaper window:
https://gally.net/temp/20250304macoswindowopeningposition.jp...
That’s not a bug. The color picker always opens at the bottom left no matter which app opens it. Has always been like that.
I, and many others in our personal capacity, have been shouting from hn-rooftops how Apple’s software capacity has been in a state of, since a decade or so (or more really) that calling it bad would be an understatement. It’s downright pathetic. It’s disgustingly incompetent. And I haven’t not even started on its services like iCloud. Because those go beyond pathetic.
I mean for god’s sake these morons (yes, “morons”) have not yet figured out how yo sync browser tabs which is something new browsers get right in a few days to few weeks time, and sometimes on top of their incompetently done iCloud and related SDKs.
Apple sometimes comes across as a glasshouse built as marketing, too much money, (sadly) a huge army of fans and loyalist apologists (and not demanding customers), and an absolute lack of decent competition; and the biggest of it — a deliberate attitude of non-openness!
I mean everything Apple is closed! So how can anyone even quantify how bad their iOS is, how smelly their cloud suites are, how ridiculous their security is!! If you can’t see what happens behind a wall and the entity behind that wall has money more than most nations and a PR and tech propaganda machinery rivaling some of “those” nation states, how can you even be sure!
> And I haven’t not even started on its services like iCloud.
I feel like a lot of the Apple issues come from the fact they keep building on top of iCloud. It’s only very recently that people started trusting the sync.
It’s like MS, where anything built on top of sharepoint is going to be garbage.
Now tell us how you feel about windows.
Don't get me started on Windows!
Your whataboutery could have been literal but shame you turned it into howaboutery. Close.
To pile on, though can't repo on demand, sometime in January, Airplay between Mac and AppleTV just started randomly disconnecting.
Mine was horrendous scroll jank in response to a moderate amount of highlighting in Notes. Mfs trying to harness AI and they can’t even render text properly… in 2025.
Just checked this in 15.4 Beta (24E5206s) on this 2023 M3 Max and it doesn't happen for me.
Reproduces for me. I'm on your build but there's a new beta out today fwiw
> - stop dragging and notice how the color cursor continues jumping around erratically (it's impossible to actually select the exact color you want)
Tried dragging color cursor for 30 seconds+, no issues at all. MacOS 15.3.1 (24D70) on 16" M2 Max.
Ah now it's getting interesting :) So far I could reproduce the issue across several machines, also on new demo machines at the Apple booth of electronic discounters - so I don't think it's something about my configuration, but maybe it has something todo with how I'm using the trackpad (but I'm just sliding around with the right-hand pointer finger).
PS: the mystery might be solved => that buggy 'Custom Colour' UI item only shows up under specific circumstances, which for my specific usage pattern is 'obvious' - see my sister comment for details.
You need to have a color selected to begin with. This bug won't appear when switching from an image/dynamic to color. Only color selected -> close app -> reopen -> top right custom color. But even then, it's a MINOR thing, it doesn't stop me from selecting the right color at all...
Cannot reproduce (15.3.1 on me3max)
Arguably a worse bug in that same panel is how their hyped up live photo desktops don’t work at all and its been that way for years. They all need to be pulled from apples servers that silently time out your download. If you are lucky you can get maybe one or two downloaded.
Yeah - also can't reproduce. Maybe some helper is messing around with you?
Works for me on latest macOS. Maybe your hardware is SOL? Can you share the video?
Reminds me of the butterfly keyboard issue of the 2016-2019” model year MBs.
If your warranty is still active could try to get the trackpad replaced.
When you upgrade MacOS 15.3.0 apple automatically enables Apple intelligence and then turns on Apple intelligence reporting (15 min intervals) by default.
You are not prompted or asked to enable.
After disabling Apple Intelligence when you do the next mini update to 15.3.1 Apple intelligence is enabled. Again no prompt and your previous choice to disable is ignored.
This IMO is a bad sign for Apple software quality. Looks like they are moving to more dark user methods seen in Windows 11.
This is not a bug, it's a feature.
By "volunteering" your data for third party advertising (...remember, you agreed to Apple's ToS), they get to sell referrals and you get nothing.
Sounds fair?
My main Apple computers predate modern LLMs, and will forever be stuck on Ventura & 10.14. The M4 Mini I just purchased (to replace MacPro5,1) will never go online, and I have physically removed all wireless "features" [why does bluetooth constantly turn itself back on?!] — love the OS (particularly the fluidity of screensavers) but the OS is so enmeshed in wanting to "be helpful" (== I don't want your AI schizo ==) that I won't plan to update any online machines any further than 2023 operating systems (== "pre-AI" ==).
The best news in all this is it may finally push me into running Linux as my main online machine, which I've been putting off for only three decades now (68k->PPC->Intel->Silicone).
I thought only MS was doing that. I have over 25 admin on/off switches for copilot in the M365 ecosystem that were forced ON in the last year. On the power platform- The authorized consent to move data between regions for ai was AUTOMATICALLY set to YES also and it was sending prod data around to read it and give advice. I guess they sneak it in with some EULA update.. When I open tickets I always get sent to the wrong copilot team because they cant keep track of it and I have to go through a forced AI agent before opening tickets also now. The rushed updates broke a lot of their own JS and its been a bad bad year with over 200 hours wasted on this since last year where I normally spend less than 40 hours a year with such nonsense.
> After disabling Apple Intelligence when you do the next mini update to 15.3.1 Apple intelligence is enabled
Lemme list some of my recent nitpicks:
I never used Bluetooth that much because I had no devices either for the phone or tablet, so I kept it disabled. But every major or minor iOS update was turning it on - I ofc understand that some devices may want to reconnect after update. But that doesn't explain why since v18.2.1 it suddenly stays disabled in my case on both devices after update's done.
Then there's iOS ongoing conversation screen that never ever allows me to access springboard when I want e.g. check the notifications. It just constantly pops up like on rubber-band and after few angry swipes, pressing the lock button back and forth finally lets me in. Do I by any chance "hold it wrong"? No idea but widget shouldn't block me from accessing phone - it should allow to swipe up and hide into status bar area.
And the control center changes in the latest iOS: these little widgets are stubborn, reorder themselves, can't change the size and tend to bug out to the point of flying "outside" the grid. It is baffling they managed to finally add icons custom positions on springboard but control center is like beta of the feature that should be here years ago.
Yesterday I've got a homepod mini for all the plugs, switchers and so on. Because for few years iPad cannot be the hub. During initial device asks for few things, like enabling voice recognition, location and then there's Apple Music offer for free for 3 months. I'm not using it and it will rather stay that way but now the offer is permanently presented in both tablet and phone settings right under my account and "family" represented by me and my partner.
After seeing the predatory tactics, dark patterns in last 2 Windows releases (I'll skip Google - because that's their default behavior for years) it seems that Apple too caught the trend. But also quality of the software overall isn't there anymore - no matter which company. Instead we're getting visual changes, or doubtful features that are being forced upon us like this Apple Intelligence or photos scanning.
Set your Mac to English (UK) and Siri to English (US), or the other way around. Then it will complain that Apple Intelligence only works if Siri and your Mac have the same language.
Problem solved B-).
> and then turns on Apple intelligence reporting (15 min intervals) by default.
That feature is so misunderstood, it feels like no one read the help text or tried it and is just going off the misplaced outrage of everyone else.
That setting is not about sending information to Apple, it is a personal private report for yourself.
There are enough legitimate reasons to criticise Apple, we don’t need to make up a problem which isn’t there and distract from the ones that exist.
I don't want any goddamn reports!
Which is a valid but entirely different complaint from claiming those reports are being sent every 15 minutes. What sense would that even make? They could just log your data anyway without you knowing or providing a setting for it. Why would they make it a toggle for something you need to provide authentication to access?
My current plan is to basically never move on from macOS 14 and perhaps move away from macOS entirely when the time arrives that I’d be forced to upgrade (new hardware needed, etc)
For reasons I am not sure about,
When a new major version of macOS is released macOS developers seem obsessed with quickly releasing a new version of their apps that will only run on the newest operating system.
From then on any updates and bug fixes are only available on the latest macOS
If you don't upgrade to the latest and greatest macOS you are out of luck.
I fear the day when all new apps must target the M* chip and everyone on the x64 side has a paperweight
This made even worse when Apple dictates when your computer is no longer allowed to run the latest and greatest OS¹.
On the Windows side, a majority of applications tend to work on a wider range of operating systems.
¹ There are various ways of bypassing this and installing the latest OS in a most unsupported manner.
True Tone is also turned on after every OS update.
This is particularly annoying when you calibrate your screen for some modicum of colour accuracy.
Bluetooth is also turned on after every OS update. I don't understand why macOS does these. They can't be bugs because they have been around for years.
That they cannot be bugs definitely does not follow. One look at Windows tray icons, monitor recognition, sound volume management, and many other things will tell you that much. Broken since forever. So definitely big companies and tech giants can keep bugs in there for many years. Also note the bugs on iOS described by someone else here in this thread.
Because a newb might complain that their earbuds/pencil is not working.
What is even worse is that I have all automatic updates turned off but my mac still auto updates all the time.
One man's "dark pattern opt-in" is another man's "stunning rate of user adoption".
This was also the case for iOS 18.3.0 and 18.3.1.
This issue was so annoying since “apple intelligence” debuted. I would have to manually toggle off for each device that updated.
But at least since 15.3.0, for me, it’s no longer an issue.
I got Homepods for all my rooms. Woops. The unpredictable bad behavior is maddening. All intermittent but frequent problems:
• I ask Homepods to play some music, and music starts playing in another room.
• I ask a room to play something, it says that is not in my library. I ask again. Same response. The problem comes in two flavors: One, I have to power cycle the Homepod to get things to reconnect. Or two, there is a halflife of disconnect where each time I ask there is an independent 1/2 chance of resolving the problem.
• I ask the Homepod to play something in multiple rooms. Some rooms play others don't. Sometimes, one room will start and stop playing randomly. Sometimes all the rooms will start and stop playing randomly.
• I ask a Homepod to play in a Zone. Same issues as asking for multiple rooms explicitly.
• Sometimes paired Homepods will both play, sometimes only one.
• Sometimes Homepods in a pair respond differently. If I carefully ensure only one hears me, it might be the one that starts the music that the other one refuses to do.
I can go on, but my experience is Homepods don't scale. A single pod or pair are much more reliable. Obviously, the more components a system has the greater chance of a problem, but it shouldn't be every day, or multiple times a day, for an integer we normally think of as "small N".
To say my Homepod use has been shaped by these failures is an understatement.
Apple has completely dropped the ball on Homekit. The app interfaces are completely ridiculous. Bad parody of bad app interfaces ridiculous.
That’s really weird, I have HomePods gen 1 & 2 (and a few mini’s) and they’ve worked fine so far. More often than not my room mates are more of a problem than the HomePods. Usually someone will connect their call to a random HomePod, which is usually pretty disconcerting.
I will say though I rarely ask the HomePods themselves to play music and almost always use a phone to start the music. I have ~7 connected around the house. I used a few different voices though so I know which one responded so I know which one to go after if I set a timer, since 3 share an open loft area and for that it can be a bit weird which one gets the request.
> I have HomePods gen 1 & 2 (and a few mini’s)
I have mostly HomePod Mini pairs, and a couple individual Homepods. I do have quite a few rooms, but my network is solid. Perhaps having a series of wired WiFi repeaters gives Homekit trouble, but nothing else has issues.
> almost always use a phone to start the music
This works better for me too. I still have (much less frequent) trouble casting to some random room's speakers.
But that is cumbersome compared to just asking, especially for multiple rooms. Since "Zones" don't show up in the iOS and macOS volume/speaker-group interfaces at all, as far as I can tell.
And then there is Apple's design choice to only let each room appear in one "Zone". No idea why each zone can't simply be its own set. Leave it up to users to care if two people are fighting over what plays in some joint room - it would be a problem that reflected editable zone definitions, not a bug.
The whole system is inexplicably janky: by design, lack of original effort, subsequent inattention, and bug.
And it’s not just through siri - everything home seems to have a life of its own. It works most of the time, but that, especially at home is not enough.
This is disappointing to hear. I was thinking of getting some HomePods to replace my Sonos system which has got progressively less reliable over the years to the point of being virtually useless now.
Are there any modern home audio setups that connect to streaming services and actually work reliably? At this point I’m thinking of just going back to an iPod and dock like it’s 2006.
It’s not a simple plug in and stream product, but ever since replacing Sonos with Control4 we’ve been incredibly happy. Josh on top of it for voice and it “just works”.
As I said, not a direct comparison, but starting to think consumer level stuff like Sonos and HonePods just doesn’t have the right incentive structure anymore to deliver the level of quality we all seem to be asking for.
If your Sonos speakers are old enough, take a day out and downgrade them all to S1. Just like magic it will all start working like it did the day you got it.
I'm testing out Wiim in a couple rooms as a replacement for Sonos and the initial results have been positive, though I haven't been using them long. So far my biggest complaints are that every model in their lineup has a different protocol compatibility list and that the Spotify integration isn't as well-polished.
I really like my HomePods and have had zero issues.
Siri is not smart, but plays music, sets timers and turns off lights just fine, and that’s all I want.
Siri often can't tell the difference between off and on.
Setting timers has got worse it now on a significant proportion of timer requests replies I can't find that in your Library.
Alexa is much more reliable.
I have work provided macbook pro.
Siri/intelligence is disabled through company managed profile.
When there is some noise in the room a popup appears saying "You do not have permissions to use siri".
There is nothing you can do, siri is disabled (can't enable or disable it myself, it's managed) but this stupid popup appears all the time so many times per day.
There is nothing in settings to make it go away.
Here's what I find most puzzling about these things: Apple does amazingly helpful WWDC sessions on how to profile and improve your code, how to prioritize performance...but when it comes to their own apps, it's like they forget everything they know?
Messages on Mac is one of my biggest annoyances. How do you make one of the most used messaging tools and have the keyboard lag so badly while typing - sometimes even skipping typed letters? It's a complete mystery to me.
There's always been a lot of room for them to optimise performance on macOS to a level that they do iOS, but modern Apple basically wants macOS to go away and sees it as more of an annoyance, so they don't spend any time tuning it. Then the elephant in the room is SwiftUI itself, there's a performance cliff there, wherein if you've optimised everything else, you might just hit the brick wall that's the layout engine with no recourse or ability to even peak under the hood. We're at a point now where building a fully native macOS app, with the first-party toolchain, will give you far worse performance (in terms of responsiveness not resource usage) than something like Electron. I have a suspicion teams inside of Apple are also running up against these issues as they start to actually adopt the framework.
A modestly sized list of WiFi networks (30-40 items) slows down and stutters while scrolling on a M4 MBP. SwiftUI is a performance disaster, and I refuse to use it outside of toy single screen projects
Yeah it's in a really bad spot on macOS still, iOS performance is a lot better. I'm sure all of this can be overcome but I'm not certain it's a priority for them.
> modern Apple basically wants macOS to go away and sees it as more of an annoyance, so they don't spend any time tuning it
[citation needed]
What sort of citation would you be looking for here? It's generally accepted that it's not a priority for them, the discrepencies in performance and features between UIKit vs AppKit have always existed and are even more pronounced in SwiftUI. Due to how it's used they can't apply the same business model to the mac as they can iOS and therefore can't extract as much value from it, this is reflected in revenue.
Oh, the leadership keeps saying that MacOS is separate from iOS and they care about MacOS.
And then they keep adding iOS UIs into MacOS, produce horrible laggy iOS-optimised software for it, and call it a day.
Actions speak louder than words.
Doesn't mean they want macOS to go away though. Merging code-bases is a bad thing now?
Apple is a large company. The people making those videos do not also work on Messages.
Messages on Mac freezes up for 5-10 seconds every time I get a Screentime request. It’s a hot mess.
I drank the "creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists" kool-aid back in ~2013 sometime, and got myself a first Macbook when I worked at a software startup the first time. While it certainly gave a more "premium" impression in terms of hardware/UI/UX for the first few years, around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.
Even basic UX like "Can still see navigation map on CarPlay when someone calls you" seems to be just not thought of at all, or not being able to move the cursor left/right because the current iPhone keyboard mode only allows number. There are a thousands of these tiny cuts that just makes it such a pain to use daily.
Which is a darn shame, because the hardware is truly amazing, from everything from the displays, to keyboard and trackpads, to the general feeling and the CPU. But the software experience been so shit for the last decade that it's hard to justify going back.
Nothing wrong with the "creating products that prioritize user experience over features" - or more accurately what Jobs said: create products that start with the user experience and the user’s needs first and then work your way to the tech (as far as I remember)
The opposite approach is starting with some tech and then trying to find a use for it, e.g. folding phones, second 1/2 screen on laptop, etc, instead of trying to actually create a usable, quality trackpad for instance.
The critique is still valid: Apple, for their software, seem to not have the same focus on quality as Jobs once insisted on. Their physical products are very much still top notch, and the products on the whole are still developed with this mindset as far as I’m concerned. It’s just the software quality that has taken a hit for some reason.
Can I ask what the fascination with the Apple trackpad is? My other daily driver is a Thinkpad and I actually vastly prefer using the smaller one on it. You're not flinging your wrist across the zipcode and the clicks are more tactile.
It was the first good trackpad that supported gestures that are now common, things like two finger swipe to scroll (inertial scrolling was huge), pinching, two-finger for right click. I still see people using windows laptops with a mouse plugged in because in general windows laptops have touchpads that suck, and it was way more common a decade ago. Innovation in the windows laptop space was adding unusable gimmicks like a scroll stripe or right-click by tapping in a corner. And then apple introduced a haptic trackpad so you can do a tactile click anywhere, none of that bullshit tap to click where you have to keep your hand lifted so you don't accidentally tap on something. And windows laptops are still lagging behind, at least they got rid of buttons and have hinged touchpads, now we wait for them to catch up and add haptics.
some windows laptops have a haptic touchpad from sensel, which is reportedly good
The trackpad works extremely great with macos. The acceleration curve, smoothness of scrolling, multi-gesture support that closely matches the UI paradigms, click anywhere and it perfectly registers, etc. It truely is to me the primary pointing device for mac and I immediately bought the external trackpad when trying external keyboards.
But none of that properly transfers to windows, and most of its hardware tweaks become irrelevant. I also didn't mind the Surface laptop trackpads, but vastly prefer a mouse with extra buttons for windows machines TBH (there are a ton of great mice too, so all things considered it's fine that way)
Maybe I should try a Thinkpad but otherwise the Macbook trackpad is the only one that really works for me and doesn't feel awkward. The gestures are right and the feel is right. I agree about size. It could be smaller.
Thinkpads are okay now, still mostly hinged and no haptics, maybe they have it on the most expensive carbons.
While still anecdotal, I'll give you two data points:
The trackpad on my Thinkpad E495 is hanging and has lost the ability to register clicks, and had been like that after only two years of use. I think the reason is that the whole construction with lots of space is collecting dust. You can use the physical buttons above the pad, and some people like this retro design even, but IMO it's just reducing space and adds a border and height distance for your finger to travel, so arguably outdated and objectively worse.
The Elan trackpad on my Thinkpad x13 gen 2 has been defective from the start and registers palm contact where there is none, with the effect that the touchpad stops responding like every 30s; this is a known defect.
... I'm sorry but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You might prefer a smaller trackpad, but then why? Just increase the sensitivity to reduce your finger movements.
Anyway, Apple's trackpad is good because it perfectly captures intent, whatever the situation and the number of fingers. It's flawless. You got half your palm on the side of the trackpad while writing? Nope, not picked up. You quickly flick with half your palm on there? Boom, got it. Five finger gesture? No prob fam.
...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.
I'm not familiar with all of the trackpad gestures, but that's part of my big frustration with macOS in general - discoverability absolutely sucks. Half of the stuff I need to do is hidden behind a set of arcane keystrokes that I am apparently supposed to memorize.
> ...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't disbelieve you, I just don't even know what you're trying to do. It must be a feature I've never attempted to use.
I just click with two fingers, anywhere. Boom, right click. Didn't even know there was another way.
Bottom right corner there's a hidden area for right clicking.
I never use the two finger click. I am particularly uncoordinated always end up moving the cursor and miss the target. Maybe it's just not for me.
Everybody has different trackpad habits and they can be hard to put into words. For example, trackpads used to have buttons at the bottom, and you'd naturally use your fingers for pointing, and the thumb for clicking. Now the buttons are gone, and new users click with their index fingers, which can be tiring and inaccurate on some trackpads (especially older/cheaper mechanical ones).
Right-clicking also has a history. Because Mac trackpads only had one button (unlike PC touchpads), the way to right-click was to point with either your index or middle finger (high precision), then put down the other of these two fingers on the trackpad while doing the thumb-click. It will not move the cursor, so there is no loss of precision. At least that's what I did for a long time. (Although I don't lose precision if I hold down two fingers and press with one of them either.)
And it gets more confusing when Apple changes the defaults. They've flip-flopped between touch-to-click and press-to-click at least once. I'm not sure if using the bottom right corner was ever the default for right-clicks? And then they also removed the video clips that taught you some gestures in the system settings. And I think the whole "deep press" gesture is an anti-feature that only confuses people, the dictionary lookup used to be a three-finger tap and that was fine. But the Magic Trackpad 2 needed a headline feature, sigh.
I think people give up too easily when they have to unlearn old habits. I've been using the macbook trackpads for over a decade now and it's more comfortable than a mouse. Just the fact that I can zoom in and freely scroll left and right makes all the difference compared to a mouse, so even when I use an external mouse with the laptop on a stand I reach for the trackpad for the gestures. It's like an extension of my mind at this point. And one technique that is not immediately clear is that to drag things you can click with one finger and drag with another, eg click on the icon with the index finger and then move it with the middle finger, easier than pushing the index finger around while keeping it depressed.
Regarding dragging, macOS also has an "accessibility" option to drag with three fingers. (It used to be a regular trackpad setting.)
It is a rather obscure feature, and yet it has such a dedicated following (me included) that a re-implementation of it was recently merged into libinput. The downside is that tap-and-drag is disabled when three-finger dragging is enabled, which makes it a bit harder to go back and forth across operating systems.
You can also enable tapping (for left and right clicks). If you’re not pushing the trackpad maybe you’ll have less issues with the cursor moving while you do it?
Settings -> Trackpad :)
How was I supposed to know to look in settings for features I don't know exist?
It's usually worth checking.
does clicking with two fingers not right click like it does on win + (common) linux?
Settings -> Trackpad and it's all right there.
Exactly. They’re complaining about the defaults, yet you’re on Hacker News where most people on here probably have the most cursed settings you can think of.
Folding phones are great though. I love mine, absolutely worth the purchase price. It's like a portable mini tablet and great for reading.
Worth the purchase price seems wild to me, but I guess things are all relative, have never owned an iPhone either, partly due to price and partly due to inferiority of software. That said, despite flagship folding phones seeming insanely expensive for what they are, they do seem like good and potentially better physical products than the standard static rectangle.
I'm not that price sensitive when it comes to phones, but I open and close my Galaxy Fold several times per day minimum.
I can assure you that if you "went back to linux" you are the furthest thing from the target audience you can be.
Not to downplay your experience, but it is almost certainly not what Apple uses for user feedback.
I went back to Linux because I can at least decide when I'm ready for updates that changes my workflow. Neither Windows nor macOS gives me that experience. I wouldn't put Linux on a pedestral when it comes to UX/UI/design, but at least it doesn't rugpull me once a year (or more often with Windows) with forced updates.
As someone who cares deeply about UX that doesn't get in the way and allows professionals to do their work effectively, I'd be a hardcore Apple fanboy if the UX was actually good for that.
I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
> I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
I remember being nagged about upgrading to the latest OS version at least once a day if not more often. Opening my wife's laptop just now, I saw another one of those notifications, begging to update where the only options were "Restart" or "Later".
This is one of my least favorite aspects of modern UI design practices, the user doesn't have any agency. Everything's a choice between "Yes" and "ask again later".
The update notification has a close icon when you hover the popup window. I use it all the time.
It'll ask me again later (a few days? a week?), but it won't make any changes immediately, nor will it schedule any changes.
I'm a chronic procrastinator when it comes to updating macOS, and I can confidently say that it asks me about updating _at most_ once a week (if even that), not every day and certainly not multiple times in the same day.
You can dismiss that by clicking on the notification without clicking on either option. It will pull up the System Settings, which you can then close.
You can turn off automatic updates if you want. You can even control security sensitive updates and App Store app updates separately.
I’m currently 1 behind and the upgrade nagging is ramping up
I basically stay on whatever macos version I have until they pull security updates for it. Seems to work alright so far. My last two OSs were mojave and now Sonoma (due to the new mac coming with it) having skipped all the rest including the latest sequoia.
Apple's behavior makes sense when you realize that Apple caters to potential customers more than current ones. Their products are made to demo well to prospective customers. Every Apple product owner/user is inadvertently doing sales demos to onlookers.
What Linux CarPlay alternative do you use?
I don't, I still use my horrible iPhone 12 Mini for CarPlay. Waiting for it to either get too old to get updates, or for it to break before I move back to Android, I guess.
So given the choice you still choose CarPlay.
I've got a Polestar 2. The map is shown inside the dashboard. The calls appear on the centre display.
I think it's a limitation of the vehicle's implementation.
It is not, Android Auto still shows me the map while there is an incoming call, which CarPlay doesn't, on the same car. CarPlay's "incoming call" widget/popup blocks the entire view, I think Android Auto just displays something in a corner or something.
The CarPlay "limitation" is likely to be a road safety/liability issue.
Yes, I agree. If I'm navigating, then an incoming call shouldn't block the entire screen with the avatar of who is calling, the map has to remain visible at all times. If even one person from Apple would have tested the scenario of "I'm navigating with a map and someone calls me", they'd see how dangerous their current implementation is.
I have had to reject/hang up so many calls because someone calls exactly when I'm trying to figure out where to go by looking at the map. In my mind, what Apple is currently doing should be outright illegal.
Personal pet peeve: CarPlay not pausing what you are playing when you hit the infotainment power button is really dumb.
That's not been my experience. If I hit power off on my volume knob, it's effectively pause to CarPlay. Does your car treat it more like mute?
Yeah both cars where I have had it treat it as mute. Maybe a setting I guess.
It pauses for me when I hit the mute switch though. I pretty much never power it off.
> around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time.
Honestly, I have difficulty believing someone could find these kinds of issues to be less of a problem on Linux than on Mac
If you haven't tried out the various Linux desktop environments for a long try, give it a try yourself. I'm having a way more stable experience with Gnome than I ever had with Windows or macOS the last decade or so, especially when I can chose when I want to upgrade, and I don't get nagged about it once a day.
But before that, I'd agree with you, it would have be stupid to prefer anything Linux over OSX or Windows, back when they were rock-solid. But today?
I've been using KDE for around a year. It has a few bugs but overall it's much better in my experience than either Windows or macOS. KDE 6.2 and above have been really marvelous — I actually donated $100 (I think) to them because I was really happy with the work they were doing.
KDE actually has working focus stealing prevention!
I used to think these reports were exaggeration until i had to use the apple tv app to watch severance. I am beyond shocked how bad this app is and how every interaction feels like a downer. Buttons miss hover effects, icons are off center by a few pixels. Whole interaction workflows were obviously never tested and just don't work. I hope the explanation is just that the app was outsourced but if this is the level of quality apple works at now, users are doomed. The other issues i see daily are more signs of just stopping to invest any resources whatsoever into base components. I don't understand how google image search can show me faster image results than quicklook from an image that is sitting in my dock on my local hard drive. Or how the finder is unable to browse network drives without freezing, giving up or taking 30 seconds to show thumbnails or even file names.
Yeah, it’s been a while:
- Music (the app, not the service): almost unusable UI/UX, sync problems, two search fields, etc.
- Calendar is confusing, glitchy UI.
- Mail is a disaster… even the simple search filter doesn’t deliver as expected.
- Safari “Inspector”: will swallow async errors, unusable for development.
- Control panel: messy, ugly and slow.
- Spotlight: was good, doesn’t work so well anymore (web results, why?).
- Finder: visual glitches, extremely slow in some contexts (file list doesn't update).
- (pre installed) tools and commands slowly disappearing from Terminal/Shell
In general all the nice little touches and the refined experience are gone…
Yes, my wife recently lost a bunch of files on her iPad. The files just dissapeared and are nowhere to be found. Of course I thought that it must have been a "user error", but some research showed that this a bug that affects a bunch of people [1][2] (might only affect files that you've written into with an apple pencil).
If apple can't even guarantee the users documents, I wonder what else might be wrong.
[1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255156283?sortBy=rank
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ipad/comments/19evmb8/files_disappe...
My work Macbook sometimes drops random characters from the lock screen password input. You hit a key and a black dot does not appear; the password is consequently rejected.
It's not exactly this: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/458099/macos-lock-...
The system is not lagging at all.
It's not this:
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2023/08/29/mac-wont-accept-correct-l...
It's a bit like this, but only for the system password dialog and nowhere else:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/1azl16n/macos_skippi...
Oh my god, I just thought my typing accuracy mysteriously dropped off at the Lock Screen.
My password is long enough that it’s not clear whether a new dot has appeared, but I get frequent rejections.
I believe this can occur when specific USB HID peripherals are connected. Try unplugging all your USB devices.
Same. When I boot my computer and reach the password prompt, whatever character I type first inputs two dots, I have to clear those two dots first and type the password again. It is very annoying.
I use a 6-digit PIN to unlock my iPhone. I get it right less than half the time. Often one or two numbers just fail to register. ISTR someone else confirmed this bug.
Thanks for pointing out that I'm not crazy
I thought I was the only one dealing with this!
Made me consider that my magic keyboard was getting old or having bluetooth issues, but it does not happen on ANY other inputs.
Wow I've run into this too! I made my own keyboard with custom firmware so I assumed it was from that, but it's been completely reliable outside of the password prompt.
I always thought this was due to Bluetooth issues or me mistyping the password. Thanks for confirming that this was not the case.
This one affects me too. It's maddening.
Surveillance cameras and WiFi sensors of keystrokes will be disappointed when this is fixed.
i've got some issues with my older iMac from 2015 after my internal SSD failed and i'm booting from an external that all appear to be software related with little I can do about it as my Mac is out of support, even though these issues must have existed previously, it's so frustrating.
-- On Monterey no disk images will mount and no external drives or SD card. Everything is fine on older versions of OS, some forum posts suggest others with the same issue, but without any resolution. The only way to get DMG images to mount is to use a third party mounter like FastDMG, upgrading to Ventura fixes the issue with Disk images and my SD card, however this is not an officially supported OS for my model, so I have to use OpenCore Legacy patcher to achieve this. External drives still do not mount, the OS just doesn't see them at all, even in the recovery mode for these OS versions However running another MacOS inside Parallels I can access them, so they must be accessible somehow.
-- This is all perhaps caused by my firmware being out of date, i'm running 173.0.0.0 and it should be something like 530.0.0.0, this is updated with the operating system, however it has been found that on custom order macs with SDD's rather than the standard fusion drive, such as mine, the firmware update fails due to it incorrectly looking for a drive via the sata port. Apparently this is fixed on 195.x but you have to open up the iMac and plug in a drive into the Sata port just to get it to do this.
Extremely frustrating considering I paid a lot extra to spec this model up but due to Apple's mistake with the firmware updates (Or other unknown issue) I'm left with these problems. Since the machine is no longer in support, Apple aren't interested in helping.
I think it has more to do with a gradual industry-wide race to the bottom in terms of quality. Reliability, attention to detail, correctness occupy a tiny fraction of the "budget" compared to security, slopping out features, and beating competition to market. I suspect that startup culture being the crucible where a large portion of engineers learned their chops and the massive amount of new blood in the industry who are primarily there for money are the biggest factors.
I concur. To add, I wonder how much of the “old guard” is still at Apple? Apple used to be perfectionistic when it came to software, even during the 1985-1996 interregnum when Steve Jobs was absent. Besides Steve Jobs, Apple also had people like Bruce Tognazzini and Don Norman who cared deeply about usability. When Apple purchased NeXT and built Mac OS X, Apple’s usability focus was married to reliable, stable infrastructure, culminating with Mac OS X Snow Leopard, which I believe was the pinnacle of the Mac experience. (Though I’m partial to the classic Mac OS from a UI point of view, Mac OS X had a better UX due to its stability.)
I suspect a lot of Apple’s decisions in the past decade regarding software is due to an increasing number of Apple employees who are not familiar with the philosophies of 1970s-era Xerox PARC, the classic Mac, NeXT, and Jobs-era Mac OS X. Granted, it’s possible to be too introspective, too focused on the past. Unfortunately Apple’s software is losing its perfectionistic qualities, which has long been the selling point of the Mac compared to Windows and Linux.
I think you have rose colored glasses on. System 7-8 at least were crash proned disasters and the 68K emulator was so bad on the first gen PPC computers you basically had to use SpeedDoubler - a much better third party emulator.
Half the OS was still running under emulatiom
> I think you have rose colored glasses on. System 7-8 at least were crash proned disasters
I think that is what was said:
> (Though I’m partial to the classic Mac OS from a UI point of view, Mac OS X had a better UX due to its stability.)
Linux seems like the opposite to me a slow marathon to achieve perfection. With pipewire, systemd and wayland there's less cruft than ever and you get the best out-of-the-box experience since it's inception.
Woah now, saying something positive about systemd will bring a bunch of crusty greybeards out of the woodwork who want their Linux to be as close to BSD4.4 as possible.
Jokes aside, I'm in agreement. Audio was still slightly buggy for me using a Elgato XLR USB interface, but it consistently worked with annoying workarounds. Linux is in a very good place for even normal consumers these days, I'm hoping Valve ends up making SteamOS a generalized gaming platform that will pull more market share away from Windows in that specific niche. I'm so ready.
I have the occasional annoyance like "VLC has choppy audio for a few seconds after I seek," and "Gnome has gone full douchebag with notifications for everything and removing all the settings."
Other than that, though, Ubuntu on any old laptop (expensive thinkpads are my favorite) is my go-to daily driver. Except at work where I'm learning to deal with a (new, shiny, powerful) Macbook that I will use to... connect to a Linux VM because that's the only way to work on our software. Seriously, a whole fleet of zillion dollar macbooks so we can all ssh into beefy VMs to build/test/deploy on Linux.
IT onboarding made a point that if you want to get a Windows laptop and wipe it for Linux, you need permission and a "good reason." How about "this is stupid just let me work on stuff." Of course it's about tech support and security, which is fair enough but I feel like they have it backwards. Support Linux and then require special permission for the $4000 ssh client...
After spending a couple of days with homebrew and building some things natively on aarch64, though, I might make a hobby out of moving stuff local. It really is a beautiful machine.
> a gradual industry-wide race to the bottom in terms of quality
I'm going to disagree. This is a false nostalgia.
15 years ago the market for consumer laptops that were not MacBooks straight up sucked. If you walk into a Best Buy today, almost any laptop you buy is going to blow any laptop from back then out of the water in terms of build quality. And credit where it's due, in no small part it came from playing catch up with Apple.
Yea I totally agree. This is selective memory.
Perhaps there were peaks and troughs in individual technologies. Late 2000s / early 2010s felt like a good time for operating systems, for instance.
But is everyone forgetting having to navigate through Flash websites and Java Applets using Internet Explorer, for instance?
Also, people are just forgetting. There’s nostalgia in this thread about the iTunes desktop app, for instance. That program has been a pile of trash for as long as I can remember back in the 2000s.
I am not referring to hardware. Hardware quality has largely improved, software quality has largely gotten worse.
I think there was a sweet spot in the late 2000s and early 2010s, more specifically, the Windows 7 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard eras.
On the Windows side of things, this was when Microsoft got serious about security, with plagued earlier versions of Windows XP (worms were so rampant around 2005) until later service packs helped fix things. Windows 7 was solid and performant. While my favorite version of Windows is 2000, 7 was another high mark for Windows.
Much has been said about Snow Leopard, but it was the pinnacle of Mac OS X, the refinement of an already great OS, Leopard. I would gladly used Snow Leopard today if it weren’t for needing current web browsers and up-to-date security patches.
Even the Web was better back then. By 2008 many mainstays of modern Web life, such as social media and YouTube, were already in existence. Google was excellent. Internet Explorer’s dominance was successfully challenged, and there was an ecosystem of standards-compliant browsers (later IE versions, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera). Web developers were coding to standards instead of only writing for one browser. Yes, ads existed, and there was also malware, but ads were less intrusive, and malware can be avoidable with more careful browsing.
I miss 2009- and 2010-era computing, when Windows and Mac OS X were at their peaks, when the browser ecosystem was diverse, and when many commercial websites like Facebook were still pleasant to use.
> build quality
Tell that to Dell and their shit trackpads and prone to death battery charging circuits. And the joy of soldered RAM so you cannot upgrade can't be overstated enough.
As someone who recently walked into a Best Buy with a family member and bought a laptop, I respectfully disagree.
All that store sells is hot garbage.
I think regarding the combination of usability and stability the Win XP/7 era was still unbeatable.
WinXP was just an ugly face on Windows 2000 Workstation without an EOL version of DirectX for gaming.
My take: over success breeds complacency. Apple knows where its money is coming from. It has carved out an extremely hard to establish hardware production chain via iphone and macbooks, and is able to provide a certain consistent level of quality for it. Software is an afterthought, especially for software that is not in service of this primary hardware revenue source. From a business point of view it literally does not make sense for them to do anything differently. Of course, disruption is always a possibility. Google was the undisputed AI leader for years, but their reputation as a House of Knowledge was overshadowed by their comfort as a search, cloud, and advertisement business. These are steady services that just need to be reliable to remain profitable, no invention required.
For a while I was surprised by Mircrosoft's signs of life around generative AI by the time OpenAI came about, but it seemed to relapse into complacency too.
I honestly believe there is some unstated law of success, I think there is a "ceiling" to success, at which point it becomes impossible to expand. It has something to do with the correlation between success in complexity. As a business grows more successful, it becomes more tied down to various commitments, constraining its ability to innovate without assumptions. There's a limit to what any given entity can handle.
I like this take. To add to that, it feels that for a company to maintain their software effectively, there needs to be a certain level of cross-departement knowledge, people who can connect the dots between frontend and backend for example, because usually it is in these transitions between two layers that bugs start to form. I feel like this becomes increasingly more difficult in large, complex company's where every departement is self-contained and there is not much vertical movement amongst colleagues, only horizontal. Which makes it really hard to solve issues that are not solely linked to one part of the process. So success doesn't only breed complacency, it decreases the possibility to do cross-departmental work because all the departments become to big to effectively facilitate this.
Anecdotally, Apple Music has deteriorated exponentially for me. iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software, but I can't get reliable use out of Apple Music for the life of me. It _feels_ like a shoddy Electron app. But that's not fair to the actual Electron (or similar) apps that actually work. For all its many design and product flaws, Spotify actually works.
I love that I had to install a shim service [0] with the same ID as Apple Music's since it can't otherwise be turned off, which was causing Apple Music to appear every time I pressed a media key but had no media playing.
That's the kind of shiesty KPI-boosting tactic I'd expect from Windows, not a machine I paid almost $4000 for. Apple comes installed with a ton of irremovable bloatware and somehow gets a pass.
[0] https://lowtechguys.com/musicdecoy/
They’ve been doing that bullshit with the media keys since it was still itunes
It really is sad how Apple can't keep such a simple app, that has been working more or less flawlessly for the modern history of the company, working correctly. Bugs I've seen include:
- After waking from sleep, the current song plays silent audio (skipping forward and back again kickstarts it to start playing again) - When streaming with lossless audio, somewhere in the first ten seconds of the song, it'll skip - Mouseover events don't trigger when scrolling moves an item behind the mouse — you have to get the cursor to leave and reenter the object in question - Radio stations randomly stop playing sometimes - And I haven't seen this one in a while, but for a long time, albums in my library would randomly have a song or two split out into its own separate album. So I'd have two of the same album, one with (say) track 5 and the other with tracks 1-4 and 6-10. Deleting and re-adding the albums would at least temporarily fix this.
Apple Music on Mac definitely needs a ground-up rewrite, though I worry it'll lose uncommonly used features, like the ability to upload and stream your own music. I think a lot of Apple Music weirdness is from the fact that it's been built up over the years upon iTunes, which was essentially a completely different product that offered different thing. No one is really buying digital music any more, but they still need to handle everyone's old libraries and purchases, so there's a weird disconnect between your local music library and your cloud Apple Music library. So there are completely separate screens for viewing e.g. an album in your local library versus "in the cloud" even though they're both views for the same content.
Incidentally the iOS Music app has generally been pretty good to me, but starting in the most recent iOS update has been having crashing issues. I'm not sure what exactly causes it, but it's typically when I rearranged the queue then minimize the player to get back to the home/library screen.
The upload-and-stream-your-own-music feature, as handled by the Mac desktop Apple Music app, seems to be 90% bug and 10% working. I can’t imagine a rewrite being worse than the status quo.
Funnily enough that's the one feature that works pretty well for me and is keeping me on Apple Music as opposed to Spotify.
Considering the state of every recently made/"remade" first party Apple app I cannot imagine how horrible the Music app would be after they got done with it.
That feature is the single worst thing Apple has done I have ever encountered: it stole my music library.
At some point when migrating from one Mac to another, it "forgot" which songs were actually mine. It's all Apple Music now. I have songs that the application _knows_ were added to my library in 2003, but for which it steadfastly maintains they're Apple Music downloads. Worse: some songs have been replaced with other recordings. Other are "unavailable" for unexplained reasons.
It really is bad. I mean, the navigation design is bad to start with (just back, no forward? Genres are under Search?), and it’s buggy. It hangs randomly and sometimes it just doesn’t make sound (you had one job!).
My last experience with iTunes was a long long time ago, in the iPod days, when you needed to use it to sync music, but it was a horrible piece of software back then.
It’s more horrible now. Syncing now opens a Finder window with an inconsistent look and feel, and sometimes fails to copy new songs in a synced playlist. The playlist view has the album art taking up half the screen, but there’s no way to shrink that section. And there’s no visual indication for whether shuffle is on - it has no grey box around it when enabled.
I kind of think they made it shitty on purpose to push everyone towards a subscription. Many of these issues apply to locally stored songs and playlists, which is how I use it.
Did you use it on Windows? I never understood the hate for iTunes. It was a dream for someone like me who'd spend hours customizing their library. A far cry from today's software from Apple.
In fact, I was never able to use Apple Music because it handled bad internet atrociously. And last time I checked (2022?) it was still not fixed.
Yes, I used it on windows, I also spent lots of time curating my music library, but I mostly used winamp for that.
It basically is an Electron app; most of the UI is server-driven. It's just not HTML and js.
News, Books, and TV are all similar.
Just curious, why did they decide to use Electron instead of native? After all those are Apple MacOS software.
It's not actually Electron; it's a bit of an unholy mishmash of webkit doing layout of things that are sometimes native views with interaction handling that's also a bit of both. It just has many of the same problems that that Electron apps have, which is also why the interactions are so janky.
So it’s like those late 90s ActiveX IE iframes in Windows programs all over again? That sucks. iTunes did seem to have some of it too in the Store section.
It's not electron, but it is a WebKit view (HTML based)
So is the App store on all platforms AFAICT.
It's not a web view except for some of the account-related screens.
Do you have a source for that? Because that's news to me...
Thanks. MSFT at least is using C# though.
> iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software
It used to be the case a long time ago. I think it was decent up to iTunes 5 or 6. They crammed into it iPod apps and stuff, which resulted in a terrible UX. Then came the UI lag.
If Spotify doesnt work they are dead in the water. If Apple Music doesnt work, thats a rounding error.
The podcast app is the same shoddy-ness. Re-arranging things in the queue is such a PIA.
podcast app is the worst, I can never find what I'm looking for
have you tried their "books"? you cannot search by almost anything! Extra-strangely, selecting book language is macos-only feature! Does anyone even maintain it?
> I can never find what I'm looking for
Overcast might be the app for you. No affiliation, I just like it.
My main issue with podcast alternatives is that onbe feature I use is walk into a room and ask Siri to play a podcast. That works with Apple but not anything else. What is the latest podcast has to sync across devices.
However any maintainance or search for podcasts is crap with Apple and better elsewhere.
Unfortunately, Overcast's update towards the tail of last year ruined it for me and many others. It no longer functions reliably in my experience.
Overcast is definitely the least worst of the iOS podcast apps but it does have its own set of UI/UX annoyances.
I've used Downcast forever. No complaints. No idea how it compares to Overcast.
Another vote for Overcast.
Apple Music, at least when I last used it, could not handle copying podcasts to my old iPod Video - this is now handled in Finder, as best as I can tell. It will copy the tracks, but it doesn't properly flag them as podcasts so if I switch to another track and then go back to the podcast it does not remember my location.
Never had that problem with iTunes.
If you set your podcasts as AudioBooks and copy them in THAT area, it remembers where you were, at least. But you have to play them through Books.
I did find that workaround and then I just scrapped that Mac (because it was a Mac Mini that lost OS support) and went back to using gtkpod on Linux.
I never liked iTunes. I always found it horrible and difficult to find my way around. Apple Music makes me miss those days.
I am not an Apple Music subscriber and don't stream much music besides SomaFM, so I may not be in the norm.
I always have selected on the sidebar Library -> Songs with View -> Column Browser enabled. And I search only using the "Filter" text input on this view. It's as close to how iTunes used to be in the early days of OS X (sans brushed metal).
What I see on the screen is just mostly dense text except the small thumbnail at the top for whatever is currently playing. There is no other related artwork or graphics loaded. I fear once a re-write of this app happens, this view is gone... replaced with lots of fancy graphics and loads of whitespace padding everywhere.
iTunes was such a piece of garbage. It would literally get stuck in a login loop whenever you tried to open it and it was pretty unintuitive design. Apple Music is not perfect but 100x better than iTunes. However, I never bought Macs for Music. It has always just been the most ideal development machine.
I canceled my Apple Music subscription a few years ago after leaving the app open for long times would heat up my computer and use 100% of the cpu. It no longer feels like they have the "it just works" feeling they used to in all of their software.
I have a consistently reproducible, if edge-case crash in Apple Music for at least a couple years now. I host a DAAP server (using the OwnTone software) to listen to my music with using Apple Music. It doesn't happen with a freshly-opened Music instance, but if it's been open for a while, then I pause, then restart the server instance, Apple Music crashes. I've reported every crash with a copy/paste of the repro steps in the comment.
It's a bit hit and miss for sure. If you turn off the subscription and Apple Music portal stuff it works fine though. I use it with a cable to sync to my iPhone with offline files I ripped with XLD from CDs. It's all the network crap that breaks it.
what is Music doing to you? Other than being slow to launch I really don't have any issue. I have made multiple lists and use it daily to listen to music. I don't recall it crashing in recent memory or not doing what I expect? Tbf, I currate my own music and lists and don't use the streaming a lot. Occasionally I use the station feature I guess, and it's passable. I'm certainly no power user though.
I use Apple Music on my Windows work computer and it's pretty good. I still have iTunes on my home Windows PC (I use it for ripping CDs) and it takes much longer to start.
> I use it for ripping CDs
may I introduce you to cyanrip or EAC? https://github.com/cyanreg/cyanrip https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/en/index.php/resources/downloa...
Thank you for introducing me to cyanrip. Rare to see a ripper that supports HDCD and doesn’t require me to decode them manually with ffmpeg.
I own dbPoweramp which I believe uses EAC, but iTunes is just easier (I rip to ALAC) and is good enough. Apple will probably drop support soon, but until then I'll stick with it.
To be fair iTunes had become such a kitchen sync software. The Windows version is universally hated I think, I remember hearing jokes about iTunes on regular TV talk shows.
Ah, you know, now that I think of it, Apple Music has this pretty bad bug where after a couple of hours of playing music my playlist will stop playing and nothing I do will make the playlist usable again. This never happened in iTunes.
> iTunes was such a stable, usable piece of software
Excuse me?
iTunes was IMO always bad. I will grant that the Mac desktop version of Apple Music is possibly even worse than iTunes ever was, though.
(This is slightly off topic, but I find it both amusing and rather infuriating that the iCloud payment system doesn’t accept Apple Pay. Oddly, it seems to accept PayPay. Really, just about everything involving the account and payment system in iCloud and Apple Music is awful.)
Apple Music is basically the same as an Electron app. But it uses a native framework and technology and Apple’s markup language for the views - Apple Markup Language
The experience of browsing the iTunes store is laughably bad...
The back button that goes back multiple steps while losing context of stuff you had clicked in between, the way the search box is in a whole other part of the UI and it has a three mode toggle. The way that clearing the search phrase does a new search for "".
The other day I bought an album on Bandcamp and imported it. Music app adds a "show complete album" link when I view the album in my library. Instead of doing anything useful this link clicks through to a whole different album in the iTunes store.
Or yesterday I browsed to "Joni Mitchell" and got some kind of curated homepage for the artist with background image art etc. The albums are grouped under a series of headings ("60s/70s" and "80s/90s") that don't include all her albums. There's no way to 'view all'.
You literally can't reach say "Blue" without going back out and searching for it explicitly.
Just idiotic and broken features left right and centre.
I have a feeling that user testing just gets completely avoided.
One thing which bugs me since the last redesign of the horrible apple photos app, is that they changed its order of showing picture?!
After going on a trip, i like creating a album and sharing it with my family, I also put there some comments, and try to turn it into a story. I believe this is what an album is supposed to do, tell a story.
Therefore rendering the pictures by default from oldest picture to the newest one is very important.
This however did not fit properly into the new design of the Photos app, as they changed it to `Date added`.
Whatever that means, at the end of the day, it starts showing pictures from the newest one, to the oldest one. Which means it’s the opposite way. Think about watching a movie backwards…
Man every time I read someone complaining about the new photos app it feels like they never even tried looking for a solution. "It changed, so it's broken."
1. Open shared album
2. Tap "Sort" button in the bottom left corner
3. Select "Sort by oldest first"
I don't know if they could have done it any simpler than this.
I use Apple M1 in my work, and comparing to a PC, it has really good performance. I would blame Apple for a lot, but not for the performance. Namely, for:
- lack of repair support (either you pay through your nose for the screen replacement or you'll get a nasty stripe on second-hand screen that has been fitted into your machine)
- unrepairable devices (e.g. split Hard Disk chips to not be removable)
- artifically non-inclusive ecosystem that refuses e.g. Bluetooth file transfers from Android device
- idiotic policy of waiting on forgot password
I think a major part of the problem is Apple's attitude towards bug reports: they basically DO NOT WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU. Which means that rare bugs go unnoticed and get swept under the rug.
I know that it's difficult to triage and process bug reports at scale, but I guess that's where some of those hundreds of billions of dollars could be put to good use.
This rings so completely true to me. Every time I notice a reproducible bug and try to report it to Apple I'm stunned by how difficult they make the process. Even reporting something as basic as incorrectly transcribed podcasts is an awful experience.
Triaging and categorising bug reports at scale really feels like something LLMs should be able to assist with significantly.
The quality crisis is systemic throughout the whole economy. So many fields are getting more disorganised, messy and chaotic.
On the one hand things are moving faster, doing more with less, being more responsive etc. But this comes at the expense of quality and long-term reliability / support. Applies to hardware too.
Automated AI code writing to the rescue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sounds a bit hyperbolic, do you have some actual evidence of this?
It seems to me like the iPad in particular has the worst software quality. Not that iOS on the iPhone is perfect, but it really seems like their workflow is to build for the phone first, then hammer it in place to work on the iPad as an afterthought.
There's so much basic stuff that doesn't work, like if you pull out the keyboard into its split mode, it constantly covers the text input that you're typing in - even in Apple's own apps. The split keyboard may as well not exist for how impossible it is to use.
But there's also just been a lot of usability issues seeping into iOS over time in general. Like those text effects they added in the latest iOS update that constantly force their way onto my messages when I don't want them. And more recently, the "recent emojis" tab doesn't update to my recently used emojis. I think it's been stuck on whatever were my recent emojis were when I did the last iOS update.
I recently got an M4 Mac Mini which is an amazing piece of hardware. (When it came in the mail I couldn't believe it could fit in the small box it was in!)
My wife was angry about the large volume of advertising, both on web sites and on the desktop, on the machine out of the box. Part of it was needing an adblocker, which meant switching to Firefox, because installing an adblocker on Safari requires an Apple account which my wife doesn't have and wouldn't want to make.
I was amused that, by default, I got numerous nags in the form of 1999 retreads of the confirm dialog from the 1984 original mac. I'd contrast that to Microsoft's nags which look like a modern HTML-inspired interface [1].
Apple's model of "local account but you get nagged into attaching an Apple account so you can use the store and other services" is inferior, in my mind, to Microsoft's model where you can use use your Microsoft account to log into the desktop and your XBOX and all the services that Microsoft has to offer. I know a lot of people don't like it, but since Microsoft introduced it I've had no trouble authenticating into SMB shares in home and SMB environments.
[1] I won't apologize for thinking that's an advance, particularly since HTML/CSS has been adding things like Flexbox and Grid which are exactly what the doctor ordered for application development.
You don't need an Apple account to install an adblocker. You just install it from here https://adguard.com/en/adguard-mac/overview.html
And you don't have to pay for it, just close the ask.
Do you need a blocker if you run PiHole?
It seems to do the job for the house very nicely.
Yes you still do. Sophisticated companies (Amazon, Google, Meta, many others) will serve ads from the same domains that serve the content you actually want. Pihole can't block the ads without blocking everything. Ad blockers are necessary to block specific pieces of content from amazon.com, youtube.com, etc., while still letting you use the service. It's a constant cat and mouse game, but ublock origin does a good job of staying updated.
Probably not. I don't own one as I'm lazy. I actually paid for AdGuard and use it on my iPhone and iPad. It comes with a mini PiHole implementation built in.
Oh wow. Thanks for this.
I just run Pihole in a container, and a spare one is on a NAS. I’ve learned the hard way, losing DNS is a shit show and a spare server saves you.
Added complexity has its downsides.
Yeah it's not perfect on iOS but better than maintaining your own stack. Basically it creates a VPN to localhost then proxies the DNS and traffic over that. It only modifies the DNS using a blocklist and passes your normal traffic straight through.
Works well. Even the crappiest nasty sites won't get through it.
Thanks, I'll give it try!
> I know a lot of people don't like it, but since Microsoft introduced it I've had no trouble authenticating into SMB shares in home and SMB environments.
Same. I get that people don't like having to "buy" into an ecosystem. But credit where it's due - Microsoft eliminated dozens of different logins over the last decade. If you jump between multiple machines all the time, it's legitimately a decent experience. You can even be simultaneously logged into your personal and work OneDrives at the same time under the same user and everything just pretty much works.
You can log into your Mac and your AppleTV and your iPhone and your iPad and all the services Apple has to offer with your Apple account. How is Microsoft offering the same thing any better?
You can't log into your Mac with your Apple account; you still need a local account created first, and it has its own login and password separate from the Apple ID associated with it (if any).
That's preferable to Windows 11 requiring a cloud account in my book.
I installed Windows 11 last year without cloud account.
Maybe because it's Pro version? I don't remember doing any incantation but it's possible that I didn't connect internet during installation.
It's not possible using the current install process, not even on Windows Pro (tested with a fresh install on a notebook that had a Windows 10 Pro OEM license registered/activated like is typical). The various hacks to trick the process don't work anymore.
As someone forced to use a Windows laptop for work with the new job, I've stopped complaining about my Mac. It's so much worse on the other side of the fence...
Working on Windows makes me appreciate the Mac ecosystem so, so, so very much.
I know the feeling. I'm forced to use a Mac laptop for work, and it's really made me appreciate Linux.
Linux is better than Windows on most counts for sure, but I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to use it full-time without making significant concessions on preferences about how desktop environment stuff works. If you’re someone who grew up on Macs there’s almost nothing in the Linux desktop space that tries to replicate that set of patterns… it’s all Win9X-type taskbar setups, mobile-type setups (GNOME, Pantheon), old niche *nix setups (e.g. WindowMaker), and of course minimal tiling WMs. There’s no clones of Mac OS of any flavor.
I’m proficient with more or less every modern desktop and can get by on any of any of them if I have to, but being happy doing so is another matter.
It's the other way around for me, it's all the concessions I have to make on Mac that make it so annoying. All the defaults I don't like, and the inability to change them or find alternatives like I can on Linux.
> If you’re someone who grew up on Macs there’s almost nothing in the Linux desktop space that tries to replicate that set of patterns… it’s all Win9X-type taskbar setups, mobile-type setups (GNOME, Pantheon), old niche *nix setups (e.g. WindowMaker), and of course minimal tiling WMs. There’s no clones of Mac OS of any flavor.
Have you seen https://hyprland.org?
What about hyprland makes you think of Mac? These two things barely resemble each other at all.
He said he never found a solution. Hyprland is customizable, so he can make one?
I know of it but haven’t tried it. It looks kin to minimal tiling WMs like i3, but with a lot of polish applied. It’s nice I’m sure, but it’s not all that Mac-like.
Part of the issue is that people who don’t use Mac’s think it’s only about the looks. The looks are secondary and it’s about all the little pieces of functionality that have been a part of macOS for decades at this point.
Have you checked out Pop_OS?
Yep. Their tweaked GNOME variant isn’t too bad, but it doesn’t fit the bill much more than vanilla GNOME does. Not that enthusiastic about what I’ve seen of COSMIC so far.
I went from daily driving mac and being very used to the desktop environment, and i am really hating everything i've tried in Linux.
Why is there no macOS clone for Linux? Since there is not, maybe now would be a good time for a project to start.
Others have mentioned a few specific distros. There are also tools like https://github.com/RedBearAK/toshy or https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto which make the keyboard and other aspects of the OS behave more Mac-like.
For me, Toshy's out of the box config make it pretty painless to switch between MacOS and Asahi on the same machine.
I believe there are a few projects like that:
https://elementary.io/
https://pearos.xyz/
https://ubuntubudgie.org/
Probably better to select and contribute to one rather than starting your own
Such a project is something I’ve daydreamed about on many occasions, but the scope is quite daunting, especially if one wants to do it right and e.g. make sure that all core utilities adhere to the HIG and actually populate the global menubar for example.
What about “Pop! OS” ?
Don’t forget the awkward underscore in the name: “Pop!_OS”?
I "grew up" (from college, before then didn't use computer much) on Linux and I use a Mac at work, it's pretty easy to switch back and forth for me. Just need my tiling WM, my always on screen. I do miss that you could close the laptop lid on Linux without it sleeping. But otherwise, not much complaints either way.
My Mac only sleeps on closing if it’s not plugged in and connected to external monitors. That’s how I would want it to work. How are you wanting it to work? Closing it keeps it on no matter whether it’s plugged in or not?
There's an app for that.
Gnome is not that different from Mac. You have your Mac-style status bar at the top, dock for apps which you can float or hide, typical window management, etc.
I use GNOME daily on one of my laptops and I don’t agree at all. It has some surface-level similarities, but overall is more comparable to something like iPadOS or Samsung DeX when connected to an external screen+KB+mouse.
The global menubar is the biggest difference, but there’s also a pervasive difference in philosophy throughout the desktop; where macOS will have power user functionality tucked away in a menu or hidden behind a modifier key (progressive disclosure), GNOME will just remove the function altogether.
Pantheon is very similar, except dressed up in an (admittedly pretty) skeumorphic theme that reminds me of OS X 10.9 Mavericks.
That’s not to say it doesn’t have its charms, I use it after all, but it’s not a Mac OS analogue in any way.
Gnome is very different from Aqua.
I used Gnome daily for a really long time. Gnome 3 is actually pretty good these days but it took a while to get there.
Aqua is still pretty solid but some of the shine is starting to fade.
I have all the Apple Intelligence stuff turned off yet I got a pop up ad in the OS for “Image Playground”
Apple’s solution? Turn off Image Playground in Screen Time settings. Ridiculous.
Gnome's top bar isn't a global menu, though. It's completely different and IMO pretty much useless.
KDE has a global menu bar that works like the one in MacOS.
The funniest thing for me is that on a Mac you can use EMacs-style motion commands (^A, ^E, ^K, etc) just about anywhere you enter text. No suck luck on Linux which requires using Windows's braindead Home/End buttons outside of the terminal.
> No suck luck on Linux which requires using Windows's braindead Home/End buttons outside of the terminal.
Not really; I have it set up on my box so that I can press Alt + U as a shortcut for home and Alt + O as a shortcut for End (and many other such shortcuts; it's fully customizable), and this works system-wide in every application and even on the raw Linux console without X11/Wayland running.
GNU stuff should support the Emacs shortcuts. In theory GNOME apps too.
Agreed. The hardware is excellent, but the customizability, and overall snappiness of the UI are far inferior to my XFCE setup.
What are you guys running when you are writing code?
I run IntelliJ and a browser, and mostly call it a day.
Got my workchats and email in one virtual desktop, a checkpoint of what I was previously working on in another, YouTube playing music in another. All controllable with hotkeys, with a UI customized down exactly how I want it. And with no fear of an "update" breaking my setup.
I've taken to vim on a vt320 alongside my main monitor for docs/testing/etc
Work code: vscode, slack, teams, browser. These are always open. Outlook if I want to check my mail.
Personal code: Vim (more recently, zed) and a browser.
I have a windows for work, Mac as a laptop and Linux on my workstation desktop. Windows is by far the worst, I don’t think Linux is vastly superior to Mac, they both have some things they do better than the other. My main issue is arm vs x86.
Arm is worse or better, in your eyes? I've only used it on servers and aside from build annoyances and slower than x86, it is indistinguishable.
M1 Mac is so nice. Hope to get an M4 soon..
I hope to get an M5. The problem is my M1 just keeps working so well. :(
Have not had that "problem" to this extent on any other generation of machine. Albeit, my current work is not particularly CPU limited.
Which distro do you use? I've run a mac and Linux laptop and the Linux setup keeps sending me back to Mac.
It's more about the DE than the distro in my experience. Gnome is budget Mac, but KDE and XFCE are chefs kiss
Please try a distro [0] maintained by a company making their own Linux laptops.
[0] https://pop.system76.com/
I set up Mint for a friend a few years ago and it took me about an hour never having done it before. What did you find difficult about it?
NixOS, for me. I deal with a lot of wild development environments, so flakes + direnv has probably saved me hundreds of hours and a few system reinstalls.
Nix is also availible for Mac, but I'll warn you that it may ruin Macports and brew for you forever.
can confirm. nix + home-manager has been the configuration and dotfiles solution i’d been searching for.
it’s not flawless, but its strengths outweigh the weaknesses.
i still need homebrew for casks, but that’s fine.
I run Fedora these days. Ubuntu is the worst.
Always has been unless you're an "email and eBay" sort of user.
Really? I always found Ubuntu to be fantastic. All the third party packages you want just existed for it, loads of bundled stuff, PPAs, plus all the stuff from Debian. And you could pay them not a lot of cash to give you support for it too.
it's fantastic if you're on an LTS version about 2 years after it's released. Again, if you're a email & ebay user you won't notice, because even the in-between non-LTS releases work fine for that.
When you start wanting to replicate experiments, or run software you find on github, then you will learn the pain of ubuntu 20.04. or 22.04. Otherwise you can have the fun experience of most linuxes in the mid to late 90s where you are compiling arbitrary libraries to bootstrap some other library so you can find out where the package you actually want to compile's make file fails at.
Give me a rolling release distro or a source based distro any day.
ninja: all of this should be read as me saying:
"Why yes, i do in fact have several machines and VMs of ubuntu server installs, ranging all the way from 16.04 to 24.04; because that's the only way i can guarantee i can run any software posted on the internet."
I was forced to use a Linux laptop for a work once. It actually managed to make me appreciate Windows!
You have to pay me to run Windows bare metal. The user experience is terrible and of the lowest quality compared to Mac OS and Linux. Even Windows OS 11 IoT LTSC requires work around to not create a Microsoft account, and this is their embedded solution.
Last week I spent a whole day trying to resurrect a Windows 10 IoT LTSC because of a corrupt WMI repository. It crashed out software and to the client it looks like our software is bad where it is the OS that is bad. Client's automation was down until a replacement was sent out and installed.
I've had to implement number of software changes because of buggy Windows drivers. From Intel NICs to touch screen HID messaging. Microsoft talks about backwards capability but it is subjective and only truly bound to the most used applications. Enabling tablet mode on Windows will break their API.
There has never been a Linux system I couldn't resurrect and keep working. With Windows, it is always re-install the OS and all applications. Even the laptop I'm writing this on is the same OS installation that has passed between 4 different computers. You cannot get that quality of OS installation from Microsoft.
Took me a month to convince IT to reinstall Windows on my work laptop. Microsoft's update broke the QA VM environment and would freeze with an infinite loop. Uninstalling the update nor repairing the OS did anything to fix their issues.
Even today I experienced Ctrl+X is broken and does not work in Visual Studio for the git comment text box entry.
It is really wild that all these little community groups manage to consistently outperform massive corporations.
Ha. I have to use Linux (Arch) sometimes, and it's made me appreciate OpenBSD :)
Corp IT recently banned my Indy with IRIX 6.5.32 daily driver from the network for some bureaucratic reason. I feel your pain.
I'm confused. Is this sarcasm? Your OS was last released, according to Wiki, in Aug 2006. How can it possibly be secure?
I doubt it’s a target unless someone was actively profiling the company in question, building out a plan, and seeking to actively exploit the company’s network from that machine. Even then, how many attackers know IRIX well enough to pull it off?
If we were talking about a networked DOS machine, Windows XP, or even classic MacOS this lack of updates would be more serious… but niche UNIX workstations? Not as certain they’re still targets.
It wasn’t that secure from the start. The lpr user was a nice way to get into Irix.
That said, my favorite Unix.
It definitely wasn't! I remember the irix 5.x and earlier days. By default, it shipped without any X11 authentication enabled. This meant everyone on the network could keylog your machine.
can't agree more, to the point i ask if the new job mandates mac,if yes i will end the process right away.
even windows is better due to wsl.
? How is this possible? I have zero issues on my Macbook, while Linux is consistently a PITA for me.
For me the biggest gripe is that I cannot configure it as I want and that it assumes I'm computer-illiterate. On top of that a lot of the approaches chosen by Apple regarding e.g. the UI are simply counterintuitive to me.
I still prefer it to Windows but (at least for me) it is inferior to a properly setup Linux box with stuff like a titling WM. But if I would to recommend someone a computer just for browsing, email, etc. then a Mac would be my top choice.
I agree, but my M1 MacBook work laptop is by far the fastest dev machine I've ever laid hands on. It struggles a bit from the UX standpoint, two things:
1. I have the same desktop layout every time, from left to right: slack desktop app, a two column wide emacs window, a 90col wide terminal. I also have two chrome windows--1 which is the same width as the slack window and overlays it, and another the same width as the emacs window which overlays that one. The problem is every single time I wake my laptop from sleep the terminal window has shrunk to fewer columns and I have to drag it back to full width.
2. Sometimes the external monitor support bugs out. I don't know if that's my hub ("pluggable" something or other) or the OS or both.
Then of course there's all the warts of homebrew, and the fact that it's not easy to build some software..
However, the performance of the Apple silicon is nothing short of astonishing. I'm curious about the AMD chips that ship in the new Framework as I look towards an upgrade to my personal laptop, but it's basically between that and a new M4 Max Macbook. Never thought I'd see the day.. will probably wait a year or so before deciding but it's interesting that Apple is even a contender.
My favorite is how when I close my macbook with an external display plugged in, the laptop screen remains on (and lit up!) with seemingly no way to configure this behavior. Sometimes a window will end up on that (non-visible) screen which can be very confusing.
That seems like a misconfig or a broken lid sensor or something. I’ve been using MacBooks with a single external monitor as my only display (MacBook closed) for over a decade and I’ve never had the laptop display stay on when closed with an external display. Maybe time to visit the Genius Bar?
For the 1st point, I struggled with the same, then a short applescript thanks to claude, attached to a keyboard shortcut on karabiner solved the painpoint. There's also an app called Stay which should do something similar with a ui, but my solution is good enough for me at this point.
lmfao if you're joking, good one, if not... yikes
"I don't want solutions! I want to complain. Meh!"
I'm curious about your dock/hub. There's a good chance I just ordered the same one as I try to build a more sophisticated home station. Which one and how does it bug out?
Pluggable TBT3-UDC3, input freezes and screen goes all pschedelic with greens and violets and then patterns and lines as everything melts to white noise. Flipping the lid open and closed and/or unplugging the thunderbolt cable and plugging it back in again repeatedly seems to cool the vibes
Try Prompt from Panic for your terminal emulator
Linux makes you use the terminal and read manuals and edit configs to accomplish the most basic tasks. At least neither Windows nor macOS need that. Linux is fine for servers, but I can't fathom using that on my actual computer.
I prefer config files a lot to settings GUIs. Two most important points that come to mind:
1. I can manage them in Git 2. GUIs change all the time. With configs you have a much higher probability that some solution you googled will still work even when it is a couple of years old.
Windows makes you open Registry Editor and tweak completely inscrutable key/value for those.
That's a... like 20 years old talking point by now?
I mean, you can probably find _a_ Linux that's like what you say, but top Linux distros are nowhere like that.
As someone who works on both I don't notice a difference. Mac sucks just as much as Windows (or visa versa). There's things each does better and things each does worse.
Once people start saying "forced to use [...] for work" you've got to analyse platforms from a different angle.
Namely: How good is this platform after Corporate IT cheaps out on hardware, and loads as much 'security' crapware as possible?
On Windows, there are incredibly cheap laptops available, and corporate IT has loads of crapware like antivirus and crowdstrike and profiles and enterprise endpoint management to slow it down.
On Mac, there aren't any cheap hardware options, and there's a medium amount of "security" crapware.
On Linux, corporate IT let you manage it yourself, because they don't know how to. They can't develop the skills either, because anyone who can manage Linux gets promoted out the set-up-new-users-laptops department.
Or at some point, corporate IT bans desktop Linux because they can’t manage it.
Linux users then start using Windows VMs to contain the worst of it.
Great point. I use both Mac and windows. Love my windows pc, but I have certainly used corporate windows laptops that make me want to throw them out the window - minutes to boot, minutes to open anything, etc. between Mac and windows, they've each got their pros and cons but nothing that would make me choose one over the other.
The answer with any discussion of this nature is to immediately disregard any and all answer that doesn't come in, unprompted, with an explanation.
Which is about 90% of the comments here. Not a joke. I have counted 18 and see only 2 with specific gripes. Worthless comment section. (Sorry, but I did include yours too)
I was 16 when I first met the first big "Mac is better than Windows" argument in person. I asked why, and they mentioned a number of things that didn't feel relevant to the people at the table, but the one that stood out was a particular feature that was indeed quite useful. Well, I didn't know how to respond at the time, but as soon as I got home, I checked with windows and the feature was right there.
I don't think they were wrong for their preference. In fact, back then there was a lot of major differences in the workflow for these OS that isn't as big nowadays, specially if you're someone who can actually use google for more than 20 seconds. But the interaction proved to me the importance of being able to back your stance, because, if you don't, you may as well be just another 16 year old idiot with 0 technical or practical knowledge of the stuff that dictated your preference. They don't learn how to resolve their problems with them either, if they hide the reasons from others. So, again, worthless - take up screen space that could have better comments, while informing nothing and helping no one.
You alluded to this but I wanted to emphasize that a lot of this is just legacy baggage in terms of reputation that windows will have to carry for a long time
I think that when people talk about how shitty windows is compared to Mac/apple they are talking about stuff that was probably true at some point
For many, memories of using windows include blue screens of death, programs crashing often and windows itself crashing often. On top of that, windows was a cesspool for a hot minute while Microsoft got its act together and put better security in place to address malware as the internet got popular.
These are obviously not the same, not nearly as bad as they were back then
I mostly enjoyed windows, and to a lesser degree Linux until a few years ago when an employer made me switch to Mac - which for the sake of my brain’s plasticity I readily embraced
The main differences I noticed at the time were: a much better window manager, a much saner way of installing applications, an overall hard to explain smoothness along with the ability to bring over some of my favorite little Linux tools
Fast forward to today and it’s really just a matter of preference. Mac helped Linux a ton, but nowadays they are all so customizable that you can more or less achieve what you’re trying to do most of the time on any of them
Today, I use all three out of necessity - Mac and Linux for work, windows for gaming, but I can surely tell you that overall my best decision was to just not get involved in holy wars lol
What did it for me was a period of: “I see you are delivering an important presentation. Let me force install an update and reboot three times. Right now.” I’ve spent too long watching reboots to have Windows in my life for my limited time on the planet.
Yeah one wart about Windows is that you always have to lookup these weird registry hacks after getting a fresh install. Disabling this automatic reboot was one of them. Otherwise that would make your computer completely useless for things like
- gaming - watching movies - presentations - anything where you want to let some calculation run unattended for a few hours - anything where you really don't want your PC to shut down unexpectedly while you’re working…
Well that covers pretty much everything I guess.
And to add insult to injury, Windows 10 for a while took away the ability to Update & shut down. It’d go into some sort of hybrid sleep so you’d keep getting a reboot prompt right after starting up again.
Damn you're worked up. Some of my gripes with Windows come down to peripherals, where I'll spend a lot of time troubleshooting why my bluetooth device or speakers or mic don't work. There also seems to be no way to bypass using a password or PIN on startup without changing the registry. I'd like my computer to just stay on at all times so I can remotely connect to it, but what do you know, a forced update caused it to restart, and because it requires a passeord to get to the desktop I have no way of getting Parsec to connect. Yeah I tried to disable automatic updates but nothing seems to stick. Why is the mic on my PS5 controller connecting and disconnecting ten times a second. Ok let me just try to unpair the controller, oh it just... won't unpair.
Are the ps5 controllers supported without having to buy software? If not, then I sarcastically say "I'm shocked that a competitor's peripheral works poorly on their product"
Because why wouldn't it work poorly?
I'll somewhat echo this. I think simply switching puts the new OS at a huge disadvantage, because not being used to something can make it seem bad.
They are totally different.
Macs come working. When something breaks, it is impossible to fix, because they didn’t include a button to fix it. But it comes working!
Windows PCs come broken out of the box, but the user adapts and eventually gains a pile of workarounds, which is sort of like the windows equivalent of a UX.
Until fairly recently, I would have agreed, but Microsoft is actively enshittifying Windows now by pushing things like cloud-only logins and ads in Start while simultaneously removing configurability (e.g. vertical taskbar was removed in Win11). I'm not a fan of macOS, but at least Apple is not all in on ads the way Microsoft seems to be these days.
I don't have a cloud login. I log into windows with a windows user account. I don't have ads in start, and i can make my taskbar vertical.
literally everything you said was false, but i can only disprove a majority of it with a single screenshot
https://i.imgur.com/XR1aj5b.png
not only no ads in start, no ads anywhere, ffs
There's more than 2 sides to the fence. Desktop Linux is actually awesome, even better if you are even remotely technical.
I'm forced to use Apple and Microsoft products at work regularly. They're all so much worse than desktop Linux that it's not even funny.
This is exactly what happens to me. I get the company laptop, think "maybe Linux isn't that great anymore... how is modern FAANG handling things?"
Then the ads come in, and any of my doubts evaporate instantly. The home PC runs NixOS, it's been that way for 6 years now and it will probably remain that way until the advertising glut is satiated. Even then, it won't be easy getting me to switch away from desktop Linux.
Linux is nice if, like nixos users, you want to spend hundreds of hours over several years writing every QoL feature totally custom for your unique use case.
For me, Mac is 99% of what I liked about Linux, and there is ALWAYS an existing QoL solution—usually reasonably polished—for everything it lacks.
Windows has none of the benefits ofLinux, none of Homebrew or even the AUR, a tiny fraction of the QoL third party features from Mac (usually unpolished)—to say nothing of the first party QoL features—plus the hardware is comically bad. Diving board trackpads are normal on $3k windows machines in 2025, 500nits displays, whistling fans on about 17 high-end laptops I tried in the past 6 months. Truly the worst experience imaginable. Abominable, even.
I work at a 90% Windows shop. Obviously major benefits to being on the "main platform".
I tried using a Windows laptop for my first two months.
I couldn't do it.
I've had the same experience. MacOS had lots of features intended to make it friendly for casual users, which made it a pain when you wanted to modify it, but if you wanted to modify something, you generally could; it just took some extra steps compared to Windows 7. By contrast, I spent an hour figuring out how to uninstall Edge on Windows 10 this afternoon, and I suspect it's going to reinstall after the next update like all of the other bloatware did.
With official linux support on Windows, I really love developing on Windows, it's the best of both worlds. Mac on the other hand feels like a second hand citizen to both linux and windows depending on what you're doing.
Any system you have deep knowledge and experience with makes all the others look like garbage, because you don't know the right menus, can't intuit what you are trying to do and don't know the right workarounds/what the designers intended. As someone who uses MacOS, Windows and Linux on the regular, let me just say, uh... man, Solaris is pretty bad!
I helped my little brother put together a gaming PC a few years ago. Before that, I hadn’t even touched a windows computer in a very long time.
I was blown away by how difficult and opaque everything was. I’m sure a lot of it was just unfamiliarity, but a lot of it definitely was not. I actually could not believe how hard of a time I had
Compare the median sale price of a Windows laptop vs Mac. The qualify bar should be significantly higher for anything with an Apple logo on it just to justify the price tag.
100% ever since I switched to design and no longer using windows, I forgot what blue screen of death looks like :D
I just spin up a ubuntu server vm and use it as my dev machine. VScode remote is pretty solid these days.
I use my mac as a on the go computer for work (it's really light, and proprietary software works always), but I have a linux VM that I sync the needed project on it before I go out. If I have to use containers for extra services (DB,...) I may as well use a VM I can configure as I like.
Ironically, I have the reverse opinion.
None are actually better than any other, they're al great but fir different types of users and what they value.
Yeah. Apple doesn't have to run faster than the bear. It only needs to run faster than the next guy. Which, as it turns out, is not that hard to do.
As someone who wants to be productive at work, I chose Windows over Mac and Linux. Thankfully I had a choice.
That's not true and your opinion is subjective. Windows 11 is a great developer platform.
How can their opinion be both “not true” and subjective? Windows 11 might be an ok developer platform though (does Cygwin still work?)
It's not true, because it's subjective.
For many years, Windows has had WSL and now it's the second generation WSL2 and you can run graphical Linux even without a VM. It has a decent package manager out of the box, a great open-source terminal. Containers and VMs are also available out of the box. Windows also has a developers' hub, which allows you to install toolchains easily, including IDEs such as VS Code.
Meanwhile, macOS comes with its own version of CLI tools such as find, which have quite different parameters than Linux, it doesn't have a package manager, when I install an app on my iPhone, it somehow decides that I want to install it on my macOS, too, etc. And I won't even mention how poor the menubar is! I have at least 10 apps I need to install to make macOS usable - PopClip, Moom, Bartender, etc., while the Windows equivalent for things like Dock and menubar are working pretty well, including notifications - I've accidentally have clicked so many times on notification banners, covering my scroll bar or window controls. Not to mention that so many times I'm typing something in window, which has my input focus, then another window pops up, steals my input focus, and I end up trying parts of my password in the wrong window due to that!
There are so many things wrong with macOS, Apple doesn't really care to improve it, and the System Settings is growing out of control! Windows' settings are much better organized!
And, yes, macOS freezes and crashes not less frequently than Windows. In fact, I haven't had any such issues with a heavily constrained Windows 11, running in VMware Fusion!
Also, Windows now has a free equivalent of the paid CleanMyMac app, and it works pretty well. Not to mention the free security software. But even with CleanMyMac, uninstalling software leads to tons of junk all over the place.
I installed windows 11 in a VM on my Linux machine for some testing recently. You still have to agree to allow MS to sell your information about 5 times during setup, and you're rewarded with Candy Crush and Xbox apps in your startup menu. I don't know how people put up with it, honestly.
Professionals don't use the "designed to be cheap for OEMs to license" Windows versions.
A lot of comments are either using home or edu or whatever, or are running in restrictive environments like on a corporate network where your IT department controls everything.
I like Linux. I use mostly Gentoo. I also like BSD but I can never think of anything to use it for. It's so good it's boring, which is great for production, not my favorite to mess around on.
I never really liked Mac OS X. I liked OS7-9, though, even though there was no real multitasking no multi-user.
But my main desktop is Windows on the metal. I ran Windows in a GPU accelerated VM for four years or so, and that was fine too.
I mean.. at least system settings are in one place on OSX instead of scattered between the control panel, new system settings thing, and a few other spots.
Use WSL2 so you get best of both worlds.
Windows, an OS that's compatible with almost all hardware and devices.
Linux on WSL2, an OS which is probably the best for most work.
If you have some hardware that only works with Windows I guess I can see some value there.
Not all developers are UNIX people, there is a world outside UNIX that also requires software development.
> That's not true and your opinion is subjective.
I think everyone who comments on an OS war thread should see this banner in big red letters underneath the comment box
What exactly did you find so much worse in windows?
The built-in bloatware (LinkedIn, TikTok, Clipchamp, etc.), the constant nagging (like full-screen reminders to buy Office 365 to "protect" your PC), Edge is basically forced on you. MSVC has insane licensing terms — you can’t use it outside of Visual Studio or VS Code, not to mention it's lacking support for C. Windows seems actively user and developer hostile.
Beyond that, Windows' architecture is a mess, I hate it (There's a reason Microsoft has to ship WSL2). macOS runs all of my tools fine, just like Linux does.
I hate Win11. It is horrible, but the first few points don't really make sense. I use it in 2 environments. - enterprise version: no bloatware, no ads, and edge is there but never has to be used for anything - professional version: bloatware is uninstalled in like 2min after OS install, another 2min later all ads are disabled. And it usually stays like that after updates too. Edge is never used at all.
Windows architecture is great. the WinAPI is better documented and more comprehensive than anything on Linux or Mac.
There are so many other issues. - The file explorer gets slower and more broken with each update. context menus randomly don't show, or take literally 30 seconds to load. - The renderer crashes randomly once a week (it's not a huge issue, but the screen goes black for 10 seconds or so) - the settings dialog is bad. goes through like 5 different layers of Windows generations and recently makes the old dialogs hard to find but doesn't offer adequate replacements (looking at network and sound) - and much more...
I uploaded a video because no one can show me this alleged slowness or context menu stuff, it's all "vibes" and it is getting ridiculous on hackernews.
I have a huge problem with windows - some api uses "@" for something, so all my folders with @ in the name(it sorts alphabetically before everything and is easy to type - on macos it's option-8 for similar, Linux I use @ as well) and because of that Windows API most applications crasb if you last saved into a path with @ in it and do file->open. Notepad++, notepad.exe, handbrake, VLC, mplayer, and so on.
Its a frustration, but it is my fault for developing a stupid habit back before metadata or changing colors of folers or what ever exists now to force an arbitrary sort order.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx_t8SUwrEk
Why use MSVC at all? You can hook up alternative compilers to both VS and VSC with ease.
What’s windows bringing to the table at that point?
With every Windows release since 8, it feels more and more like the OS is actively antagonistic towards the user. This has come to a peak with Windows 11.
Not too long ago I booted up an old laptop and put a fresh install of Windows 7 on it for kicks. Amazing how much of a breath of fresh air that was.
Not the OP, but one thing I've run into is that I've had three or four Windows installs (both Windows 11 and Windows 10) just fail to upgrade - one of them new upgrades just stopped showing up, I had to install an 'enablement package' and that fixed it but there was literally no warning or instructions of what to do, I just had to Google it when I noticed I wasn't getting updates.
The others just failed with random hexadecimal error codes, again I had to Google to try and work out what was going on.
With one of them I had to use the command line and diskpart etc. to expand the recovery partition because apparently the default size when I'd made that Windows 10 install was no longer big enough, and Windows Update couldn't work this out (the error code from the failure was nondescript, took ages to find out what was actually wrong) and couldn't fix it. Had to do it manually in Powershell.
Another one I think might have fixed by running sfc and dism recovery commands in the command line, again it would be nice if Windows could work this out itself!
To be fair, macOS isn't much better in this regard, the error codes can be quite cryptic, for example what is a -2003F.
For some reason, a game I play called DCS can be buggy and I've been told by the support to sfc /scannow and dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth. For some reason on every install of Windows 11 I've ever done, it always picks up tons of broken files. This is installing using the latest at the time Microsoft ISO. I've had this issue on multiple different systems, a modern gaming pc, a Mac with bootcamp, an older Lenovo M93p and when installing inside VMWare or KVM.
I do get less application and operating system crashes on a Mac though.
Windows is great. Windows laptops are universally garbage.
They become a lot better when you install Linux.
Well, except for battery life.
Hardware support also varies from laptop to laptop. If you want one to run Linux without a hassle, you have to shop around for that specifically.
As someone who makes video games in C++ I’m going to have to disrespectfully disagree.
But I will admit that SteamDeck is great. It’s deeply ironic that the best API for Linux gaming is Win32.
Games are the one thing that’s much better in Windows. But then the best way to play them is to run Linux with whatever compatibility layer.
Not to actually run windows.
Unless you happen to play one of the many games with "anti-cheat", which doesn't work on Proton.
If Linux is the best way to run games then why does Linux have a mere 1.45% user share on Steam? And I believe that includes SteamDeck.
Better doesn't always win. Steam Deck has also still sold millions.
So what's actually better about Windows? Other than the fact some legacy software still runs on it...
Because for developing, say, financial apps in C++, Linux is much, much better IMO.
Better profilers (Superluminal). Better debuggers (Visual Studio).
Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software.
glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment.
Once upon a time I shipped a popular-ish game with Linux support. 1% of Linux users represented 50% of bug reports. And no it’s not because Linux players were more reliable at reporting Linux issues. It has been a few years, but supporting more than SteamDeck is likely similar. At least for non-proton builds.
I like Portage when it works. When it doesn't, I don't like portage very much.
I'm not sure if you can "alternatives" glibc in Gentoo, but the "whatever .so you have" isn't a thing there, you can slot different versions if you need to.
If I want to test some software I'll use Ubuntu with docker or whatever, but to deploy to production I will make it run on Gentoo. Hell or high water.
Windows software still ships every .dll it needs, unless it is a Microsoft one. Do a search for msvc.dll or whatever sometime and marvel at the pagination.
What? The only 'great' Windows since 7 is LTSC.
Win10/Win11 with O&O Shutup are perfectly fine.
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
Does shutup10 allow you to decide which updates (if any) you want to install, uninstall the Microsoft Store (and keep it uninstalled), uninstall Edge (and keep it uninstalled), remove other unwanted bloatware (and keep it removed), control all group policy settings (without having them reverted every time MS feels like it), and receive security update support for several years longer than the retail version?
No?
Well, then, it might be "perfectly fine", but it's not "great."
Disagree. Somewhere inbetween respectfully and disrespectfully.
I would pay a premium for a system that never gets any new features except for bug & security patches.
In fact, that's more or less what iOS was for a long time, and I loved every second of it.
Once you have a good feature set, you can spend years and years ironing out 100% of the bugs and vulnerabilities and you'd build a rabid fanbase of crotchety tech-saturated users like me. I want something that Just Works.
I've been using fundamentally the same Linux setup for over ten years now. I think the biggest change it went through was migrating the audio system to Pipewire, which took about an hour to figure out and hasn't need attention since.
I have no solutions to offer for smartphones sadly.
Amazing. The mental peace you've gained this way probably vastly outweighs the initial investment and missing out on the newest "features".
100%. I'm not OP but have had similar experience. My basic UX hasn't changed beyond trivialities in pretty well over 10 years. Contrast that with SaaS and many modern mobile apps that get completely redesigned every couple of years whether you want them to or not, and you have zero control on even the timing of the update. I've found a lot of refuge in open source as complete redesigns just for the hell of it (or to justify a full-time job) are nearly unheard of, but there are definitely tradeoffs. Usually (though not always!) the UX isn't great, but it will be functional. As a person who prefers function over form (though does harbor an intense appreciate for the latter), this is often a good trade.
I just wish the Linux desktop experience were better. I'm going to give Deepin a try as it is focused on desktop experience.
It's honestly pretty great on a desktop PC these days. Laptops are hit or miss depending on the model.
Exactly. Fedora on the desktop is wonderful, and on laptop is really good assuming reasonably supported hardware. I have a framework 16 and 13 and both run fedora really well.
I'm using Ubuntu but it has a few issues. Overall it's OK because I treat it as a development machine for my side projects.
My archlinux has moved from a bunch of scripts to just a window manager with Chrome. At the end of the day, you realize you don't really need all these gadgets and notifications but just a terminal and a browser.
Yup, my core applications are Kitty, Vim, coreutils, Firefox, and pcmanfm.
SailfishOS is pretty decent on mobile, as in a simple system that moves slowly. You can get support for Android apps with an emulation layer. Even banking apps tend to work well. Sadly, to get a license from the US you'd need a EU IP address.
I have this conversation with my partner quite often. We'd like to use operating systems, software that stays "still" and doesn't break usage workflow every release with changes just for the sake of change. We both think that major commercial operating systems/software is largely feature complete. And everything done nowadays is just for keeping up the "freshness" appearance with all sort of meaningless GUI overhauls or features of doubtful usefulness that marketing branch everywhere pushes.
It really feels like the quality was replaced by... lipstick on a pig. And honestly, I am fed up with all this pandering of the changes as a breakthru, live changing technology.
It's ironic you would pay a premium when the biggest reason for continued "new features" is to justify an SaaS sales model.
Excel '98 probably covers 95% of users use cases. But here we are.
This has to be related to the curse of "can it scale?" that our industry is in love with. I think it is safe to say that MS Access and related programs were probably already covering a large majority of use cases back when they existed. On modern machines, they could probably cover larger companies better than folks want to admit.
Will they work for the largest companies out there? Of course not. This despite the fact that they probably did help get those companies off the ground.
A side effect of employing tens of thousands of full time people that do product development is that matter how good your product currently is, there is an entire organizational hierarchy that has to justify its existence. The result is that every great product keeps picking up parasitic features and functionality. Intended to add value, but paradoxically removing overall value.
There is a fine line between staying ahead of the competition and enshittification and most companies don't find it.
The most recent examples that come to mind are Spotify and Slack. Products that were, at one time, a pleasure to use, but have since been significantly degraded by a continual assault of minor features and re-working of UI.
Reworked UI's (and also renamed products) are the bane of my tech existence. I think I'm going to learn Emacs, build up the musculature of my C-C and C-X pressing fingers, and live out my days in the terminal.
I was about to do the same if VSCode does that too. For now it's fine.
There's other economics to it at play which you hint at.
The "pay a premium for no new features" tends to imply a "I paid $99.99 for this once, all future updates for bug and security patches are free".
This in turn means that there's no money incoming (especially as the software goes further and further from feature parity with competition) to pay those developers who are doing the bug and security fixes.
While new features can be (often are) buggy, the new features and upgrades that are coupled with the software (and hardware) that have people buy ${new thing} in turn subsidizes the effort to fix ${still supported thing}.
That, and the effects of allowing "new feature demos" at WWDC. The various groups MUST come up with something that demos well. "See how easily I can...", and now the slightest breath does something dramatic, and usually wrong.
Oh, there is a gazillion of bugs and broken fundamentals to justify the existence of those thousands for a long while!
One doesn't get credit at a tech company for fixing a bug, but for introducing a Process that would prevent all such bugs forever. Or at least until the promotion goes through.
iOS doesn't even need more features, it needs way less. Sadly that isn't how the world work.
For my one use case I noticed that the newest iOS release doesn't appear to be tested on the iPhone SE 3. The "Press home to unlock" and "X new notification" texts are now laid on top of each other on the lock screen. You're looking right at it when picking up your phone, so you can't miss it, yet Apple QA did.
> doesn't appear to be tested on the iPhone SE 3
Reminds me of the old days working at Motorola. Your feature branches were merged into a biweekly dev branch, which needed to be “sanity tested” before it could get merged into the branch that the QA folks validated. Every software engineer was on a lab rotation: when it was your turn, you and a couple others that made up your team went to a different building and descended into the hardware lab where you didn’t come out until you had created a working mobile phone network from scratch and tested it with a wide variety of phones -basically anything that could work. They had shelves with bins of everything: early unreleased smartphones (this was way before the iPhone), junky flip phones, RAZRs, StarTacs, bag phones, etc.
It was honestly a lot of fun to see the hardware side of what you were working on, and to ensure that documentation and checklists were always sufficient.
Apple is probably way too secretive to do anything like that :(
Ah, I wish I could get a job like that -- both hardware and software. I need to take out the STM32 dev board I purchased a few years ago and started writing software for it.
Yeah that is very frustrating. I recently went to Ubuntu and picked the minimum installation. I then installed a bunch of development tools such as `build-essentials` and `git`. Other than Youtube crashing on Firefox, the whole experience, at least for the programmer part of me, is very satisfying.
BTW debugging still takes a lot of effort to setup in VSCode / or have to write init scripts for GDB which I suck at. I think Visual Studio debugger beats everything on Linux for that purpose.
Maybe I really need to try out Windows LTSC?
for a long time, iDevices could not copy&paste. locking to one of those versions with no new features would be horrendous. not all new features are bad or trivial.
Edit: pedant patrol
Copy paste was added to like, iPhone OS 3.
It is technically incorrect to say that iOS could not copy paste at any point, as the copy paste feature was present in the first version of the software called "iOS".
To use a version of iPhone OS that can't copy or paste, you'd have to use the original iPhone or the 3G (not 3GS!)
That's what I think too. I prefer the same UI for 30 years. I don't care about any "UI new age" stuffs.
TBH I don't even care about security anymore, like our data has been sold left and right already. As long as I don't get phished, I avoid 80% of the bad actors out there.
I already removed some update software from Ubuntu, those update notifications are very frustrating.
Ironically, this is EXACTLY what Google Keep (their notes app) is. Just a simple, cloud based sticky notes app that has barenones to no formatting features except for a basic checklist. It's perfect for me and has been that way for at least a decade. Knock on wood tho
Yea im also getting tired of the constant updates and featuritis.
I still have a 16” Intel Macbook pro and looking for my next machine and am seriously considering a Linux notebook for the first time. Im mostly coding and doing docker stuff. No excel and photoshop is a bit of an issue though.
This is basically Debian.
You probably would, but that's the number one complaint about Debian: "Where is my fix of new shiny?"
My complaint isn't about new shiny, but new safe. Sandboxing apps on Linux is getting better but it still has a ways to go to catch up to macOS.
I'm talking about things like how a weather app shouldn't have access to the filesystem, or camera, or microphone, etc... A calculator shouldn't be able to see my location or even what networks I'm connected to.
Windows 10 LTSC edition.
> I would pay a premium for a system that never gets any new features except for bug & security patches.
[thousands of Enterprise Sales employees suddenly start listening]
Sorry, it's Apple software. Nevermind!
What? iOS without new features? When? Every release since 1.0 had a big splashy feature
Initially it was building out the basic feature set. Now it seems every time they add a new swipe or icon it breaks my mental model of how my phone works without adding something that I needed.
Apple is caught by their own success: the iPhone is mammoth hit but they've reached the end of its growth. So they've got a whole organization built around making it more compelling to grow the sales, but they should really switch gears: put the iPhone into maintenance mode and invent something completely new. Easy to say, hard to do, trillions on the table if they pull it off.
When i type on iMessages, any time the message gets longer than ~8 sentences, ie... a mildly long message, it starts to lag extremely bad, where 1 keystroke has like a 250ms delay. it gets worse the more characters get added on
ive tried every single fix i can find, from turning off AI to predictive text. nothing fixes it. so many other people have this issue... it is absolutely insane a messaging app cannot message
I’ve had this occasionally but luckily it hasn’t persistently.
Also annoyingly, I don’t consistently get messages on my Mac. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t, with no way of knowing what I’m missing without looking at my phone.
iMessage gets synced automatically, but SMS needs to be enabled explicitly on the phone for it to forward them to your Mac.
It's not just Apple guys, it's everywhere.
Software quality has seriously declined across the board, from Spotify to Slack to core operating systems like Windows and macOS. I think a major factor is corporate culture, which largely ignores software quality. Another issue is that many engineers lack a solid understanding of CS fundamentals like performance, security, and reliability (perhaps this is why many are not able to solve basic algorithmic questions like linked lists or binary trees during interviews)..
I've seen code written by so-called "senior" engineers that should never have made it past review; had they simply paid attention in their CS 101 courses, it wouldn't exist.
On top of that, as long as poor software quality doesn’t hurt a company's bottom line, why would executives care if their app takes 20 seconds to load?
Consumers have become desensitized to bloat, and regulators remain asleep at the wheel..
There are plenty of us that would love to just sit and fix things all day, but then you get a poor performance review for not shipping new features and find yourself out of a job :)
I wonder how can I join MSFT or Apple just to fix stuffs? Don't care about salary as long as it's on par with my current one.
That's not how Apple works. You'd be given requirements specific to your team and expected to implement them. End of story. You wouldn't be empowered to seek out other teams and fix their stuff (or even necessarily talk to them). It's deliberate and intentional to have very few people with that cross-functional power.
You're right and not right. There were the infrequent occasions when an engineer would be tracking down a problem they were having and end up in another teams framework/code. A Radar would be created, a polite code diff attached and, often, the team would take the patch and roll it into the next build.
It did not happen often though to be sure.
There are power/perf teams at Apple that have this as their core job responsibilities
If you got hired on as an L4, didn’t mind missing out on promotions, and were ok working with your manager it could definitely work.
I thought this once, it's a disappointing experience. You'll hear all the right things, and 3 years in, realize nothing you do matters to anyone, and that's because all the managers who were so excited about your passion for software quality haven't met with you in a 2 years. And then it clicks, they got promoted by knowing the game: features, resembling the rushed planning deck, delivered yearly. (This is a whole lot easier to whine about after banking the salary for 7 years, of course)
You know, money fucked up Apple. When I started there (1995) no one came to Apple as a "career move". Everyone there was passionate about the machine, the code, the UI.
Not so after the iPhone.
Hi man, you are the John Calhoun that I read about here (https://usesthis.com/interviews/john.calhoun/)
Just want to say thank you for your work.
BTW I never used any 90s Apple product back in the day, but I always appreciated the products, the manuals, the designs.
I am.
100%. You nailed it. Very heartening to hear this, always been unsure of my most personal analysis, as it was limited to one corp in one era.
Vastly different circumstances (shitty state school x print design gig => 2008 philosophy dropout waiting tables => build a point of sale app startup, iPhone OS 2 => sold it => 2016 Google).
I had at nigh-religious appreciation for the things I learned from the culture of roughly that era. folklore.org type stuff. Grew up on Gruber. And learning so many of your cohort on Twitter. Took me from a waiter to an engineer.
I ended up being ashamed to mention stuff I learned from it, people rarely were in touch with the culture as I understood it. Many soulless vampires afoot once the money comes in.
I'll never forget asking a (wonderful!) colleague why they wanted to work on Team X, expecting "I'm really passionate about [form factor] because [use case]" or "Well, given $LOCATION, my options were [Google Cloud | this team | Google Play Books]"...instead it was "well, coming out of $IVY_LEAGUE with $STEM_MAJOR, my best options were finance or programming, and finance seemed worse"
I had far too many out-of-left-field interactions like that. And it poisons the place in many ways that, to me, ultimately damn it to mediocrity.
Yep, fixing bugs/performance is just not valued by big companies
No one gets promoted doing it
Agile. Sprints. Firing QA departments.
I see these trends as negatively impacting app quality.
"User pain" as a euphemism for "lowest common denominator" apathetic / fear driven development.
Like, playing the Vulcan game of Kal Toh where you remove rods unintelligentlly and still believe your constructed structure (the app) is fully coherent, and instead it dissolves into uselessness.
Honestly, I don't think it's a culture thing or a CS fundamentals thing.
I think it's the fact that software is 100x, or maybe even 1,000x, more complex that it was just 25 years ago.
Apps are built on so many libraries and frameworks and packages that an average application will have 100x the amount of code. And they're all necessary. A typical phone app is 200 MB, when Word 4.0 was less than 1 MB.
But it's not just the sheer number of lines of code that can have bugs. It's the conceptual complexity of modern software. An app has to have an interface that works with the mouse and with touch, large screens and small screens, regular resolution and retina, light mode and dark mode, it works offline and online with sync functionality, it works in 20 different languages, it works with accessibility, it works with a physical keyboard and an on-screen keyboard, over mobile data and over WiFi, it works with cloud storage and local storage, it goes on and on.
There are so many combinations of states to reason about. When I was building software for Win32 back in 1995, you worried about screen sizes and color depths. That was about it.
Software's just gotten incredibly complex and there's more to reason about and software quality is just going to suffer. Like, I love Dark Mode at night, but at the same time I can't help but wonder what bugs would have gotten fixed if engineering resources hadn't gone into, and continue to go into, Dark Mode for each app.
The reason everything is built on millions of layers is not because it is actually required, but because we have invested a whole lot of time in building frameworks so that mediocre programmers can get fast results.
I would call it a culture issue, where we are not able to seperate out places where this is fine, new interesting apps are great, I want as many as possible.
From places where it's destructive, I would be happy if none of the ways I interact with an os had changed since windows 7, but it had gotten faster, more secure, and resilient.
> And they're all necessary. A typical phone app is 200 MB, when Word 4.0 was less than 1 MB.
On native platforms, no it’s not.
I know this for a fact because I maintain moderately complex, functional phone apps that have binary sizes that sit below the 30MB mark. I use multiple desktop and mobile apps from other developers that also match this description.
The cause of the bloat there can be attributed to the following things, mostly:
- Apps including gobs of poorly optimized analytics/marketing garbage
- Third party libraries unnecessarily including their own gobs of poorly optimized analytics/marketing garbage
- Apps being wrappers of a web tech stack project built by devs who have zero dependency discipline, resulting in a spiral fractal tree of dependencies that takes up way more space than it needs to
Engineers who care about good engineering are pretty much a thing of the past. Today the game is buffing your resume with as many complex tools as possible, and jumping to the next thing before your pile of complexity crumbles under its own weight.
Some rose-tinted glasses looking at the past. There was a time when your entire computer would crash if you just looked at it funny.
Raw stability of software is much higher -- there are just more minor annoyances because there is also much more software.
MacOS had more screen sizes to target in 2011 than the iPad does today; in any case, Apple has always tolerated having iPad apps that are blown-up phone apps. Mouse support for iPad apps has existed as an accessibility feature before it was deemed a core feature. Even that isn't any kind of technological leap, mouse support has been part of Android for at least 15 years now.
None of these really explain the sloppiness and unfocused nature of Apple software, which has been best-in-class until recently.
Except those iPad apps also have to have a Web app now, and if you don't have a custom MacOS app your iPad app has to look good when run in MacOS. You then have to support all iPhone models. But also maybe Windows and probably Android. 25 years ago you could slap "IBM PC Compatible" on software and basically design for like 5 color depths and maybe a few resolutions.
Update cycles were on the order of a year, not a week (which also means all new features need to be ported to all the platforms above in that timeframe). Not even mentioning the backend infrastructure and maintenance to run and sync all of these when 25 years ago everything was on your local hard drive and maybe a floppy disk or CD-R.
I lean toward "culture" as the problem. Although, allowing for your 100x or 1000x complexity, how much of that complexity is from feature pile-on?
I imagine putting AirPlay in the software stack, just as an example, caused code perturbations all over the place. Sidecar feels like another disruptive feature. Never mind Catalyst, juggling Swift and C binaries, Swift UI....
This stuff Apple brought upon themselves. I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions though as to whether some of these were worth the cost of disruption, on-going maintenance.
I agree. The frameworks and tools we use are so complicated, but we’re also so tied to the complexity that it’s pretty much an anti pattern to go outside the framework/toolkit.
I haven’t fully thought this idea out, but I’ve been feelin it recently.
Left pad.
> And they're all necessary
No. No they aren't.
This.
I’d like to hear from the HN comments. Does anyone here work for a modern and popular software company (something I might have used recently) and think that the software they make is really and truly bulletproof? Like no backlog of hundreds of unfixed bugs and polish items that won’t stop growing?
I don’t think I have met anyone who works at one of those places yet. I’d like to.
The SQLite people post here sometimes
All of that can be summarized with Electron, web developers and high availability of workworkforce with somewhat low salary…
Except none of Apple stuff is Electron based, and as far as I am aware of Apple salaries are competitive with top companies - so none of your arguments really hold up.
My reply was mostly for the parent comment.
Apple software is still top tier when you start comparing to Slack, Teams, and all the non-native friends. Apple Music does not take close to 1GB of RAM. There are very few native applications these days because of the cost. And lower cost availability is based on the web stack and lower entry level of skills.
MacOS may have bugs but in general they are well engineered. Starting from secure enclave that none of the competitors have, or just raw performance and battery life that is not just hardware. I haven’t seen a single bug in my Watch for over a year. I guess it depends what you use.
The most bugs that we see these days are originating from the choices behind the tech stacks. Python and pure JavaScript are still too popular. Every post here with Rust name on it gets attention because of its promise of some level stability reduced resource footprint.
Dev at Apple seems immensely political and corporate. From the outside it looks very much as there are points for shipping $new_thing, even if no one out there wants $new_thing.
The whole marketing cycle is based on a endless stream of $new_things that give Tim Cook something to talk about during those slick presentations - presumably so he doesn't spend all his time making prayer gestures and talking slowly.
There doesn't seem to be anyone in charge of overall user experience who can say "Why does Facetime get so confused by different numbers and devices owned by one person? Why does the shared clipboard only work some of the time? Did the Settings app really need a new UI? Why hasn't Finder been updated since forever?"
And so on.
> Why does the shared clipboard only work some of the time? Did the Settings app really need a new UI? Why hasn't Finder been updated since forever?"
These are like smallest of the small annoyances.
Compare Facetime and Zoom, for example. Issues are on completely new universum. Zoom has new RCE about almost every month. They just don’t give CVEs for them because they can be mitigated on server update.
Web-based apps definitely lose when you compare RAM use, and probably also when you look at the average app installation size. Spotify.app filling half a CD is absolutely bonkers. But these are also the easiest two metrics to measure, and that makes it tempting to look at a huge trend in software quality and reduce it to "Chromium eats RAM".
It is much harder to quantify how many bugs or delays one encounters in a single day of macOS/iOS compared to earlier versions, or in native apps vs web apps, and so it never happens.
I just don't understand why Apple UI designers hate scroll bars with such a passion.
It's probably just me, but I feel that many apps on Apple follows the same pattern. For example checkout and compare the scroll bar experience on ChatGPT website (Chrome) between a Mac-book and a Windows laptop.
Disappearing scrollbars pisses me off as well.
But I can tell you how/why (I think) it happened.
They dropped them in iOS when the iPhone rolled out. It made sense given the small display area where even a 10 to 12 pixel column makes a difference.
And then, sadly, there came the slow roll to make both MacOS and iOS look the same and so they started auto-hiding on the Mac as well.
It's the form-before-function that I loathe ever since Jony started making round mice or USB connectors impossible to find.
Apple's scroll bar allergy leads to some quite funny (to me, anyway) problems with major websites. Some companies seem to have their entire web dev + QA + management staff on Macbooks, because on any other desktop platform their websites are COVERED in useless scrollbars that scroll maybe one or two pixels. I've even seen scrollbars cover up half part of a company's logo.
All of that money spent on hyper expensive laptops, and people still end up with terribly ugly websites!
Yep - overflow: scroll rather than overflow: auto. I've seen Google fall foul of this
Yeah annoys me too.
You can turn them back on everywhere in Settings -> Appearance -> Show scroll bars always.
This is actually a kind of important setting to turn on if you're doing web development. At my work the developers use MacBooks and it's not rare to get bug reports about double scrollbars and whatnot which are caused by certain nested views with bad CSS, but it wasn't caught before release because the developer doesn't have scrollbars turned on, so you don't see it until a Windows user tries it.
Yeah that was already done. But it doesn't help too much. They kinda still fade in and out sometimes -- but I can't get a proof right now. In addition, they are still too narrow.
OK at least VSCode still does this ->
- Turned on "Always show Scrollbar" in MacOS setting
- Turned on "visible" in VSCode for vertical scrollbars
Check the explorer window -> scrollbar doesn't show up unless your mouse somehow touches the area.
But this is probably a VSCode thing though.
That isn't a VSCode thing. I have "always how scroll bars" enabled at the OS level and across many apps it only shows when the mouse is over the scrollable area. You know, because the accessibility setting is really just a poorly worded suggestion now.
Wait, does that mean there is an option to actually always show scroll bars under Accessibility? I need to check it out.
> why Apple UI designers hate scroll bars with such a passion.
It takes courage.
I mean as a user I haven’t thought about a scroll bar in years. The way the OS works with the hardware for touchpad usage means it’s just not a big deal.
Even when I used a mouse on a Mac desktop it still never bothered me. Looks cleaner, feels sleeker and doesn’t impact functionality.
I don't know, but missing scrollbars is very frustrating in some cases. I literally missed some configurations because of that when I first used a Mac. There was a configuration window that needed some scrolling to show all options, but I missed that because there is no scroll bars.
Yeah but I agree that everyone has their own flavors. I personally prefer the Windows 2000 ones...I'm old. Never liked the flat ones, looks soulless.
You missed an indication that you need to scroll, that's certainly bad design, though fixing it doesn't require the full fat bar (not that I'd object to a proper global setting for users who like that!).
(flatness is a universal cancer, though, even compared to the ugliness of the old Win)
Apple creates excellent hardware but mediocre apps. Look at Reminders app for instance. Try to create a task. And then drag it to another list. Absolutely not a smooth experience. Feels like it‘s not a finished product. Now compare that to another app: Things3, where the drag and drop of list items is rasor sharp: You have the feeling you have full control over the item.
That’s just one experience. Another: Look at Photos app. Apple recently changed it. Total chaos. No lists anymore but tiles. I have to scroll up and down to find out where my lists of photos are. Germans call it „verschlimmbessern“, making it worse by trying to improve.
Or look at Finder app. And compare it to any competing product.
No app created by Apple really convinces me. None of them. Every product by an indy dev is magnitudes better.
Quality is a synonym for care. And if the leadership doesn't care, the teams building the software won't care (at least, not as much).
Putting a logistics guy like Tim in charge was great for ensuring Apple kept shipping existing hardware products and growing revenue, but almost guaranteed that quality across the board would falter. For all of his faults, the one thing that Steve Jobs did that's impossible to replicate by force is care.
Mark Zuckerberg on a podcast with Joe Rogan (massive grain of salt, please) talked about the protocol that Airpods use to connect. Apple is reluctant to share the protocol under the guise of "security" and "privacy". But when Meta finally had a chance to review it, it was apparently all unencrypted and all the keys were stored in plaintext.
But this tracks with a lot of other explanations they have put out over the years about why they can't put out basic features or fix UI flaws.
For interpreting Apple PR, I have re-appropriated Hanlon's Razor: “Never attribute to User Experience that which is adequately explained by incompetence or indifference”
Another issue I have is with the Messages app. My girl sometimes sends me voice messages from her iPad, and sometimes the voice messages come as .caf files. These files are pretty much unplayable from the iPhone in the Messages app. It happens intermittently because we send a lot of voice messages between each other. I use an iPhone 15, not sure what her iPad model is. It also happens sometimes when I record voice messages on my Mac (Sequoia 15.3.1) and it shows up as .caf files on her iPhone and it renders it unplayable. I then have to record the message with my phone before she can play it. There was another case that happened (haven't been able to reproduce it yet), but I sent a voicenote with my Mac via Messages and we literally could not open the conversation again. It became so laggy typing a message in the conversation (even after waiting for a lot of time for the conversation to open). The way I resolved it is by deleting the conversation, that fixed it. But obviously I recovered the conversation, and the issue still persisted. I updated my iPhone to 18.3.1 and that was how the issue got resolved.
My personal annoyance is Apple abandoning AppKit in favor of SwiftUI, which breaks down immediately once you do more complex interactions than basic demo apps. NSScrollView and NSCollectionView must be among the most buggy UI components, but SwiftUI ScrollView is so barebones (and also buggy), it's basically useless.
I call it ShitUI because you can tell immediately when a view uses it. It's absolutely incredible how bad it is and that macOS is becoming cluttered with these awful UIs. Have you seen the WiFi menu? How can they fuck up a menu? I just don't understand.
In comparison, my experience with a Quest 3s with MetaHorizonOS.
It has a screen recording feature that when you use it the first time it asks you whether it can use the microphone. It claims that this can be reset somewhere in the settings. So the first time I used the feature, I disabled the mic.
A couple days later I wanted to record with mic and searched through the settings but found nothing. Googled it and discovered little. Many posts and answers pointing out that other feature settings require a factory reset to be able to alter initial settings made.
I searched again in the settings, fiddling here and there but found nothing in the settings nor anything that fixed the setting.
In the end, I had to do a factory reset. Then I was able to enable the mic for screen recording.
The device is good enough but the UI is a nightmare. Bulk deletion of notifications? Not possible. Getting out MetaHorizion? Three to four menus until a pause button can be used.
Much prefer my Apple devices - no BS, no factory reset.
I would bet that the reason for the drop in quality is the focus on delivering features in order to secure promotions and ongoing positive performance reviews.
Yep. A lot of software companies are suffering from this short-term-ism that results in incentive structures that value things that move the stock price rather than make for a strong long term company.
It may eventually blow up in faces, but a lot of the people making money on it today won't be around to see it.
Indeed. It's a Tragedy of the Commons type of issue with the way most corps are run nowadays. When you're just starting out it's understandable to be very short-term focused as next year doesn't really matter much if you go belly up next week. But once companies have some establishment, it's insane to me how little thought goes into long-term planning. That is, until you realize the incentive structure they've built essentially penalizes executives/management for sacrificing short-term opps for long-term health. For example, but slicing R&D to the bare minimum (and often below that level) and driving revenue high up and to the right by pumping up sales/marketing efforts, you can look like a business genius, and just as it starts to really hurt the company you're moving on to the next gig, and often with an exit bonus of some kind.
I don't even know if it's stock price or just human hubris. "I joined the team, implemented "amazing" feature, got promoted/got hired at x".
Google is by far the worst of this. It seems 75% of their products are pet-projects turned abandonware.
Apple seems like the kind of company that would greatly benefit from having someone opinionated at the helm to keep the different teams oriented towards a unified vision and to intervene when a team produces something crappy
Yep... same with google...
Make old chat system better (or just maintain it?)... meh boring...
Make new google chat.. talk.. alo.. i mean hangouts? Yep, promotions, bonuses!
I mean, it's not always like that, at Google it always depended on the business unit.
To be honest, I think it's sort of simplistic to try to characterize a 185k person company and its culture with this sort of lack of nuance, whether it's Google, Apple, or anywhere else.
I got promoted 7 times (from SWE 3 all the way to VP of Engineering, so I ended up in the top 0.01% or something crazy by level) during my time there, and pretty much only made things better, did migrations, etc.
I did build some new stuff, but I don't believe they were ever a meaningful part of a promo packet. All my promo packets were about fixing things or making existing things better, and the impact of doing so on developer productivity, efficiency, etc.
> and pretty much only made things better, did migrations, etc.
Maybe you are right.
From the outside however, the situation looks very different:
- reader? destroyed
- Google+? Forced upon us and then destroyed as soon as communities started to form.
- Search? Hasn't been working correctly since around the time Google+ launched. At some point it became so bad I used DDG and Bing out if spite. The difference was that small.
(and before anyone says "it is impossible to create or run a working search engine in 2025": Marginalia and Kagi both work very much better than Google these days, although Marginalia admittedly only in certain niches.)
Picasa? Replaced with a w3b service.
Sure, but they've also had tons of products that have run for decades.
After 18 years of living, i'll give you the best view I got:
While I do think Google kills products it shouldn't, my view there tends more towards when things are killed that cost basically nothing to support (IE have 1-2 people working on them, have not large prod costs, and not significant privacy/etc issues over time that require serious engineering rewrites/cost), have lots of happy users, don't meaningfully conflict with some other product strategy, and don't need lots of new features.
When those are killed, I think it's dumb.
Reader falls into this category.
Picasa would not.
lots of things on killedbygoogle do not - i think they were fine to kill, whether the process by which they were killed was a good one or not.
Google+ - eh, there's a lot to hate there but it was also Google experimenting with a more top-down approach to product building. I tend to be a fan of cultural and process experimentation - you have to be able to adapt your culture and processes as a company grows, or you will end up in a really bad place. You will never get this right 100% of the time, and it is worth doing it on important things sometimes, so that the results actually matter.
In this case, G+ also got caught up in the existential crises of the day (social) in a way that was unhelpful overall, and had leadership (Vic) that I think were just not good. He had good folks working for him (Bradley, et al) but I think it would have gone a lot better with someone else in his seat.
I say this as someone who was working on a small product at the time that was slated to become the backend/etc for youtube comments, and got crushed by G+-in-youtube mandates. The Youtube folks were wonderful - happy to figure out what the best thing was, decided to ditch their own thing for ours even though we were a little team (3 people) in a different org, and they were a big team who had spent a bunch of work on comments. They didn't like the top-down G+ mandate anymore than we did. In the end, it wasn't the fact that there was a top-down mandate that was bad. It's that it was not a well thought out strategic mandate.
I do also think Google often doesn't know how to start small and grow a user base over time.
But the rest, i think there is tons of hyperbole around. I think it was fine to kill Picasa - just because some percent doesn't like the replacement doesn't mean it wasn't okay to kill. Part of development and product life cycles is that you are not going to get it right all the time for all people. That's normal.
In the end, they've created products lots of people loved, and have enough users of roughly any product that you can't kill anything without have a large group of unhappy people. The answer to that is not to avoid killing anything. At most, it's "be thoughtful in how you support its death". Sometimes Google learned from its mistakes here, and sometimes it didn't. I had a hand in a number of divestitures and such because of my background and sometimes weird roles, and tried to make sure we did the right thing when I could - previous mistakes were helpful in pushing things for the better.
For example: Sketchup was divested rather than killed, which went really well.
Niantic was also spun off rather than killed, and I think that turned out really well as well.
etc.
I reported a bug in their mmap syscall on Apple Silicon. You can hard freeze the computer in about 4 syscalls (basically system C functions). It's still there and they won't fix it, or acknowledge that it's a vulnerability.
The frustrating thing is it locks the IO system, but the kernel thinks everything is fine. One by one each thread that does IO never returns. So you frantically click around wondering why your computer isn't doing anything.
Curious what the bug is
Publish it. Let it get abused. Eventually they might fix it.
I was literally just talking about this the other day—every app on my Mac that gives me trouble is from Apple (Music, Podcasts, Keynote). And don’t even get me started on the declining UX quality in iOS. It feels like the cracks are really starting to show now. I know Apple’s developer quality has been on a downward trend for a while, but at this point, it’s impossible to ignore.
True! I experience many iOS bugs every day. I try to report them, but I feel I always get a response - "have you tried to turn off and on?"
They treat us as dump users.
Even when the device is for PRO users, they don't want our feedback as they think the software is perfect.
The poster mentions issues with Notes and Freeform. I use these apps with an Ipad Mini 6, and suffer from freezes, latency, high power draw and crashes. I was previously considering getting a more powerful device like an Ipad Pro, but according to OP this won't fix it at all. Paraphrasing a redditor, the Freeform app seems to have been developed as a demo tool to use in Apple Stores.
In theory, there should be some sort of paid app that uses all the incredible hardware for an actual good experience.
While I worked at Apple in 2021-22 their issues seemed about the same as nearly every other company producing consumer apps and devices; bloated slow garbage with very mediocre quality. Their engineering culture is terrible, especially as it relates to transfer of the “Apple ethos” to the next generation of devs. Apple is going to be indistinguishable from the rest of the pack within the next decade.
But most of all it seems like it was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for. That combined with the superficial “implement my Figma masterpiece in code” development approach that includes little to no user testing. Tog weeps. Don Norman weeps. Observe how much breaks when you do something as trivial as bump the default font size by one notch. I am sure it is pixel perfect at default size though.
Enter a birth date in a contact entry without a year. Watch as it jumps to the next day when you save because you are editing the date after 0000 of the next day in utc time. That bug has now been in MacOS/iOS for at least 17 years.
Sorry, got in to rant mode. I really want “less but better” from things in my life. We as consumers aren’t rewarding companies that take this approach apparently.
You can really see this when trying to build apps with Swift & SwiftUI. The language and the framework seem to be optimized for nice terse WWDC demos but both fall apart pretty quickly when you start to do any heavy UI lifting with them. And I think that's starting to bleed into their own native UI now too. The lousy macOS settings app is a good example.
Unfortunately there don't seem to be any good alternatives to Apple. Windows is even worse.
Yes, I was a fairly early SwiftUI guinea pig, when I'd mistakenly assumed it was solid because of how Apple was pushing it, and your "WWDC demo" is spot-on.
The DSL could've been better (while still syncing between code and direct-manipulation GUI painter). And the interaction model seemed like it wasn't to be trusted, and was probably buggy (and others confirmed bugs). The lack of documentation on some entitlements APIs being demoed as launched left me shouting very bad words on multiple days (which is not something I normally do) before I made everything work.
I could feel this, and ended up wrapping all my UI with a carefully hand-implemented hierarchical statechart, so that the app would work in the field for our needs, the first time, and every time. Normally, for consumer-grade work, I would just use the abstractions of the interface toolkit, and not have to formally model it separately.
Don't get me started on what a transparently incompetent load of poo some of the Apple developer Web sites were, for complying with the additional burdens that Apple places on developers, just because it can. Obvious rampant data consistency problems, poor HCI design, and just plain unreliable behavior. I think I heard that at least some of that had been outsourced, to one of those consulting firms that everyone knows isn't up to doing anything competently, but that somehow gets contracts anyway.
All of these modern "declarative" frameworks seem to be optimized for hello world kinds of apps. Jetpack Compose, too.
And SwiftUI is just being too smart sometimes: https://tonsky.me/blog/swiftui/
Not sure about other people, but for me, my UI framework making its own heuristic decisions about how to lay out and style my views is the last thing I want. It robs me of the certainty that my UI will look and work the way I intend. And this is why, as an Android developer, I still build my apps with decade-old tried and true technologies.
Yeah that view builder syntax is a perfect example of optimizing for the wrong thing. It makes for nice short examples but in real apps your compile times explode trying to untangle these crazy generics and the compiler very often just throws up its hands and tells you to figure it out. This means you just start commenting out bits of code until you find by trial and error what it doesn't like.
That this is shipping in the native UI framework for a trillion dollar tech company is astonishing.
Except those technologies are now deprecated and you don't know when they might be removed. Jetpack Compose is now the vendor-favored way to build apps, so best practice is to use that.
Their new wifi network selector is laggy as fuck. The old one was perfectly fine. This is just like windows reimplementing basic UIs in their UI-framework-of-the-year.
KDE 6.3 is pretty great these days.
Ironically Linux with KDE is very good for being both pixel perfect, responsive and enjoyable to work with.
What a time to be alive.
"in the beginning was the command line"
> It was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for.
This rings especially true with Windows.
There was a not-so-serious rumor that the whole MS design department uses Macs.
This may or may not be true, but recent UX changes make it clear that the designers don’t really use Windows beyond a superficial level. Many common interactions have become increasingly tedious and visually sluggish, both due to excessive animations and performance issues. Explorer in particular has become barely usable for anyone who frequently manages files.
Apple can stay far ahead simply by not falling even faster than Windows. Finder and Spotlight have gotten worse, but they remain light-years ahead of their Windows counterparts.
Spotlight has been broken on both of my Macs since Sequoia. It doesn't find anything under Downloads dir even though it should be indexed. Or any non-Apple apps under Applications. Re-indexing did nothing.
Ummmm, what? Spotlight I'll grant you, but Finder is hands down the worst file browser on any operating system.
There's no up button, no split screen, you can't copy a path easily, you can't show hidden files easily, you can't customize the columns in list mode, the column mode won't let you go up, there's no cut and paste.
Windows Explorer sucks, but not nearly as bad as finder. Dolphin, thunar, and Nautilus on Linux have all those features and more. I have to drop to terminal or install mucommander just to do basic things in the macOS filesystem.
> There's no up button
Display the path bar at the bottom and you can get to any level of parent in 1 click. Without the path bar you can also right-click on the current folder name at the top of the window to also navigate to any level of parent.
> no split screen
This is not something I've ever found a use for in any OS, I always just open 2 windows. It does have tabs, and you can drags stuff between tabs, albeit with some delay. This seems minor, unless for very specific workflows.
> you can't copy a path easily
Right-click file or folder, when you then press Option, Copy changes to copy path.
> you can't show hidden files easily
Command+Shift+. toggles hidden files on and off. I find this pretty easy to remember, since dots prefix hidden files.
> you can't customize the columns in list mode
Right-click the headings and you can add/remove the ones you want? Is that what you're talking about?
> there's no cut and paste
Instead of an option when copying, it's an option when pasting. Command+C to copy, then add Option while pasting... Command+Option+V. I almost never use Cut, even on Windows of Linux, I don't want to cut something, get interrupted, do something else, and lose my file. Having it move, then delete the source with the paste action, is safer.
It sounds like you haven't used Finder that much, or weren't willing to learn or adapt your behaviors.
There are some things about other file explorers I like, but I don't find myself struggling to use Finder at all. I mostly miss column view when I'm on anything that isn't Finder.
Finder always felt like it was built with usecases and workflows in mind that had no intersection with my own.
Luckily there are Norton commander clones available for osx.
The last time I had a computer running MacOS, you couldn't even type the directory you were looking for into Finder; you had to use a dropdown menu.
It is hidden behind a keyboard shortcut -there is no menu. cmd-shift-g I think. But it is literally the only way I know to get to folders besides the designated shortcuts (documents, pictures, etc) and I've been a daily mac user for many years.
Yes, Apple Finder is so freaking slow, browsing a moderately large folder is challenging, nevermind a network share.
Not sure I even agree about spotlight. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something but can never find what I’m looking for. Even when I’m in the directory, searching for a file in that directory. It’ll just show me random download files.
Granted, I haven’t even tried to use it in years. So maybe it’s not so bad these days?
My spotlight cannot even find some of the applications I have installed
Going up is also a shortcut: CMD+arrow up.
I assume they didn't expect users to use directory hierarchies much and thought everybody would dump their files into flat dirs and search them with spotlight.
Try command + click on the folder in the top of the window to go up
TBF a ton of windows users aren't primarily from the platform, and have either a second machine or more experience on other OSes.
The dev community might be an outlier, but people choosing a windows machine to get WSL on a mainstream and well-supported hardware is not uncommon.
Same for those with a macos work laptop but a windows gaming machine, or artists using a mac for personal stuff and windows for 3D/2D creation.
Having Windows designers making platform transitions easier kinda makes sense, though I agree it shouldn't penalize existing users as much as it does now.
As far I remember, Microsoft design team used Sketch, which is... mac only.
Now they are using Figma, but as far I know, yeah, they all use macs lol
> It was designed by people who don’t even know what it is for.
> This rings especially true with Windows.
Just take a look at the Windows 11 "Control Panel" or whatever is called and how that looks like just another UI on top of the main system, that does not make sense
Can you upload a video showing exactly what you mean by explorer is sluggish?
Context menu alone takes a few hundreds milliseconds to load every time. And then you have the infamous "show more options" to click if you want to do most of things (in my use case).
Open a folder isn't much faster either, there is visible delay. with the current-day hardware there is no reason why this isn't instant.
Compare it with Windows XP or Windows 7, the difference is night and day.
Interaction with OneDrive is horrible too, this is particularly bad because it was fine on Win10. When a folder is syncing it constantly "refreshes" itself which causes you to lose the focus if you're renaming files. This is the single most annoying thing because I do close a doc -> immediately rename it all the time.
this isn't a video. I specifically asked for a video. so i'll make one, and you show me where the sluggishness is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx_t8SUwrEk
you'll note that, apparently, everything you said prior to your last paragraph is shown incorrect.
Something went way wrong around IIRC Vista.
I still had spinning rust when I upgraded. Win7 was fine. UI wasn't quite as snappy as XP, but it still felt pretty responsive.
After upgrading? EVERYTHING took forever. The friggin' start menu lagged noticeably on almost every interaction.
Upgrading to a solid state disk mostly fixed it, so they had clearly done something foundational that'd radically increased disk IO system wide. Solid state's fast, but it's not fast enough, if they'd kept going down that road. Eventually it'd start to show up there, too.
Windows 7 with spinning rust microsoft did ReadyBoost, where something could have incredibly fast seek times but mediocre throughput.
Vista was the worst windows, other than 8 and ME.
Suffice to say if windows was actually slow when i used it, i would not use it. I didn't use ME, XP, Vista, or 8. There's a pattern here. I did use Xp x64 edition, but that came out ~2 years after XP, and did not have the pre-service-pack issues XP did.
It’s comforting knowing that I’m not the only one being driven crazy by the renaming file focus thing. Now when I paste a file and go to rename, I wait and watch the focus selection switch 3 times before I know I’m good to type
i replied to this person who ignored what i asked for, and i uploaded a video and linked it. I right clicked, clicked "rename" and then typed a name, pressed control-Z and then enter.
If we're talking about a transactional file sync service preventing you from editing a file while it's synchronizing; then i am not sure what to tell you. Both you and the person you replied to seem to merely like complaining.
(not OP) I open the “videos” folder and it takes 10 seconds to show the files list (there’s only like 50 files). I tried various forum solutions (whose existence proves it’s a bug) and nothing worked. Only happens on the videos folder.
Have you tried searching with Explorer? Or opening the start menu or a folder? I'm currently 100% a Windows shop, and it's embarrassingly slow on my silly fast computer.
"Everything.exe"
but more to the point you have to enable indexing and let the indexing service run. Microsoft caught flak for "SearchIndexer.exe" using 25% of a CPU 24/7 that i think it's much less aggressive now. But i don't use that search because windows searches CIFS shares slowly, too. Everything.exe indexes and the searches are near enough instant that it's not even worth splitting hairs or stopwatch timers.
To be fair, searching with Spotlight has been equally slow and useless for me… Whenever I need to find a file and mistakenly use Command F in my Finder, the complete cessation of activity that inevitably results reminds me yet once again to just go to my terminal to use trusty GNU’s find instead.
I don't disagree, but the average business user is someone who uses the M365 suite and a handful of webapps. We are getting ready to roll it out and our test users haven't had many complaints. IT is a different story, however, for the reasons you stated. It's like they just shuffled all the system and config menus for fun.
> Enter a birth date in a contact entry without a year.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. It’s mind boggling. I’ve had to start putting in my best guess just to have it save…
FWIW, I've had the expiry month of credit cards stored in Safari increment on occasion (leading to failed online payments, trouble getting a flight, etc.) several times, to the extent that I now always include the expiry month in the card nickname. Mind boggling.
I thought I must have misentered it once and it’s always stuck on that but now you’ve got me thinking
If you hit save too fast while a numeric dial control - like the sort used in the iOS Clock app for alarms - is still (barely) spinning.. it will happily just silently keep its old value.
This is easy to repro by spinning an alarm's minutes and hitting save before it's completely and utterly stopped.
This UI bug (?) has existed for as long as I can remember.
For exclusively Apple ecosystem users, how do you handle these feature gaps? Just get used to working around them and ignore?
I feel like every time I swap to the Mac ecosystem it's a litany of "Hunh, that weird tiny thing doesn't work" issues.
PS: USB-C DisplayPort MST (display daisy-chaining) support that's been missing for... a decade and counting?
> Just get used to working around them and ignore?
Pretty much. It's not like the other operating systems are better in this regard. In general there's a lot more software that's buggy like this than software that's reliable
I don't even understand this bug description. It's an edge case I guess I never ran into, so pretty easy to handle.
That said, it's not like everything is perfect, just 100% better than my drive-by experiences trying to have a gaming PC (dead, again), and an Android phone for testing purposes.
To clarify their issue, you can celebrate someones birthday without knowing the year they are born, you only need to know the reocurring date. You can't enter a birthday in apple contacts without a year, if you attempt it it sets it as the date of tomorrow.
My experience with apple is something's either a 2 minute fix or unfixable which to be fair is a reasonable way to do things though much less appealing to me (though less relevant for many users as stock android/windows continue to give users less and less control).
Are we talking about the Contacts app on macOS? I just added the birthday "9/22" to a contact. On blur, the value changes to "September 22". On save, I see the value "September 22" reflected in the birthday field of the contact.
I accept them as I do in windows and Linux because I have built workflows around the things I do want on each of them respectively. I’ve long since given up the dream of any one platform or technology choice meeting all my needs, for me at least, it’s a fools errand.
This bug I can’t even replicate so :shrug:
For what it’s worth, I think the contact bug you mention is fixed, at least in latest iOS (18.3.1).
Screen recording of me trying to reproduce that: https://streamable.com/n97j9m
Having joined a large established FAANG, it's become quite apparent that in any large established entity with so much management and meta work, with strong incentives driving more energy towards the meta work than where the rubber meets the road, it's inevitable for product quality to deteriorate.
Internally the prioritized output becomes the meta work, not what reaches customers. What reaches customers is almost some kind of accidental byproduct of what the vast majority of people in the org spend their time on day-to-day.
My past experience is dominated by startups. The fake work I'm incentivized to spend time on would have been fire-able levels of misplaced priorities / waste everywhere else I've worked as an IC developer.
I've never worked for Apple, I'm assuming this pattern plays out everywhere at this scale.
Matches my brief FAANG experience well: the vast amount of time devoted to performance reviews and the gaming of them versus actual productive work was… something I’d never encountered in my previous 15 years of work.
Well compensated hoop jumping at least!
Interesting observation. I suppose most startups haven't existed for long enough for the meta-optimizing employees to be promoted over work-optimizing employees, yet.
Meta optimizing employees have issues hiding at smaller companies where one person has a vision of what needs to happen and quickly identify someone not pulling in one direction.
Once you get big enough, upper management has tough time figure out who is meta optimizing over work-optimizing. Not to mention there might be multiple meta optimizing employees.
IME, it's around 100-150 employees which lines up with Dunbar's Number. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
I've seen high performance organizations at 600-800, thanks to execs that spent quite a bit of time talking across levels: When at that size, some ICs get CEO 1:1s, you have some chances of quality control. After all some execs had been coders. The problem is that none of them had ever been middle managers, which meant they had no idea of how to tell a good one from a bad one.
TAs the company kept growing, and hired middle managers from bigger tech, they that Jira was the way to go, as it allowed for nice reports aggregating "insights"across the organization. In under a year, point-centered management arrived, and with it an exodus of top talent, all of which had massive amounts of equity anyway. Execs then wondered what happened, and why ability to ship features kept declining. I think they still don't know.
I'd also be curious as to how it relates to span of control (~4-15 direct reports) and therefore levels of management for a given org size, as information hiding about actual work performed seems tied to managerial masking.
There is no budget for this kind of stupidity, if a start up employs to many people like this they won’t succeed.
Same. The compensation is substantially better at FAANG, but in terms of actual on the ground work being rewarded, almost never the case.
Meta-work (lots of "cross functional" documents, alignment meetings, sync ups with senior tech leads to brown nose, deliberately creating low quality output to justify hiring more people/growing one's "scope") is 90% of it.
Any actual output is largely accidental, coming from the 20% still naive, or idealistic enough to actually care about what they produce.
This saddens me, as I learned the lessons of less but better through Apple over 20 years ago through Steve and Jony, which ultimately led to Rams. It was a pretty transformative lesson in my life, and extended far beyond tech or products.
I hope they are able to course correct with the right leadership. A culture that cares deeply about the little things is hard to build and has to be supported at the highest levels.
> Sorry, got in to rant mode. I really want “less but better” from things in my life. We as consumers aren’t rewarding companies that take this approach apparently.
If *becoming the most valuable company in the world* isn't being "rewarded", then what possibly is?
No, it's the hypercapitalist endless drive for ultra short-term, next quarter profits at the cost of anything else that causes this. Obvious irony being that Apple would've never become this big if Jobs had followed this approach.
This of course is the #1 reason of the downfall of the West, above all else - pure short-termism.
Thanks for sharing. Which teams are better and which are worse? I guess all the system software teams are better?
Agreed I was there at that time. I was in two different “orgs” in my 5 years, SWE and AI/ML
I saw poor management (lots of ex Amazon) running new grads/jr engineers into the ground (features features)
It’s all about new features. If anyone with experience expresses an idea to address technical debt they are literally put on PIP
I will point out I was at Google for a similar length of time and saw nothing but amazing code, yet the problem was is building anything but the ads money maker.
If there was a way to combine Apples magic marketing brainwashing with Google’s engineering it would be an amazing thing to watch
Freeform also works incredibly bad on my iPad (sluggish, unstable, crashing). It’s definitely a software issue. I never had such performance issues with Notability.
But yes. The overall decline in Apple’s software quality is evident and sad.
Remember when OS X Snow Leopard 10.6 was released with 'zero new features' and with focus on fixing bugs and improving things?
Good times.
> For years, many of us have willingly paid the "Apple tax", the premium price for Apple products justified by superior user experience, design, and ecosystem integration. But if software quality continues to decline, this value proposition becomes increasingly difficult to defend.
Just today I was thinking how the best hardware gets crippled by software that has become as shitty as Microsoft's.
By now it has become incredible that “Doesn't Suck” was once motto and slogan for the user experience on Apple devices.
> as shitty as Microsoft's.
If I ever feel down on the Mac, I can go to a PC and try make a pdf or view one. Clunky AF.
Mac software might be at a low-point, but it hasn’t burnt down yet.
> If I ever feel down on the Mac, I can go to a PC and try make a pdf or view one.
After a restart (which happens a lot because the machine crashes a lot[0]), my Windows 10 box won't be "ready for use" for a good 10 minutes. I've seen it take 30 minutes. I've done macOS updates that have taken less time.
Oh and macOS doesn't randomly reboot to apply updates. Still haven't found a way to prevent Windows from doing that.
[0] I suspect the 3080 but it frequently crashes when idle on the desktop which shouldn't be stressing anything GPU-wise.
There is a tool called Windows Update Blocker which i use on a Win10 server that i run:
https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-8/
I don't really get this criticism. If I want to make a PDF, I open up Word and save as PDF. To open it, I double click the file.
You can save anything you can print as a PDF since what, Windows 7? And the OS comes with a PDF reader since what, Windows 8?
And Word comes bundled by default on windows?
> And the OS comes with a PDF reader since what, Windows 8?
Which one, the Edge browser? Don't you have to install Sumatra PDF or Acrobat?
Word isn't bundled by default but you can print anything to PDF. Windows ships with a PDF printer installed, so you could print from Notepad to PDF if you'd like.
PDF readers haven't been required for over 10 years? Chrome shipped with a PDF viewer eons ago and of course the old version of Edge and current Chromium Edge (and now Firefox, as of a week or two ago) have PDF viewers.
macOS Preview is limited to PDF 1.4. That kind of sucks. Not a deal breaker for most PDFs, but I've come across one or two that won't render and I had to figure out why.
Preview is vastly better than any stock Windows reader. It lets you read, edit and share nearly all PDFs. I can’t recall every getting stuck.
Just today I was thinking how the best hardware gets crippled by software that has become as shitty as Microsoft's.
Apple software has always been crap. People put up with it because the hardware was nice and shiny and distracted from the many bugs and severe UI issues.
> Feature prioritization over optimization: Engineering resources appear focused on new capabilities rather than fixing existing performance problems;
This point really cuts to the heart of my frustration with Apple lately. I switched from Windows XP Pro to OS X 10.2 in order to have a dead simple, bulletproof desktop experience without all the nonsense. I recently booted my old macbook to grab some files and was shocked at how lovely and simple 10.2 was.
Till very recently there was a bug where PDFs from the internet archive would show in inverted colours in mac os Preview. It was there for some time.
As an iPhone user, I can only agree that Apple's software quality is just going backwards. Keyboard is terrible, it suggests words that are completely unrelated. Control center is becoming worse at every update. You can't still select text in the messages. Wifi is always unstable. You can't turn off wifi, etc.
Also my father used to use the feature of announcing outgoing calls when call is made by Siri, they removed it and I saw that many blind people also used to use this feature. I don't know what they thought while removing this feature.
Yeah!!! What’s with their word prediction? More than 12 years and buggers still can’t predict my first name which I have typed a trillion times at least and is my name in the iOS and iCloud and contact and what not!!!!
The thing is slowly I am moving to so much non-Apple things that at one might I might go back to a much cheaper Android. Because anyway normal sized phones are not coming from Apple either.
Should there be a better way of reporting and displaying bugs?
For displaying the bugs, I'm thinking of something like what invision was - showing the interface of for example the desktop and showing the number of bugs associated with different elements of the desktop.
By displaying bugs as posts on a forum, I feel that we lose track of how degraded the performance of the system actually is.
I wish Apple would put more of their operating systems on a public git repository, make people sign CLA’s who make contributions, and vigorously defend their IP if people try using it in a manner that violates their terms of service.
They should also setup a public bug tracker so people can follow issues they care about.
Over time, a community/network of people inside and outside of Apple would evolve that fix issues and improve areas of the operating system they care about. Some sort of reputation system would emerge where people who write quality bug reports or create quality patches would get more attention from Apple.
It wouldn’t be open source, but it would at least be better than the way it works today.
Maybe they should just make it open source.
Did anyone mention that on AppleTV I now get ads on my home screen?
----
I am also using a Macbook for work and in addition to the fantastic battery life and the fact that it mostly "just works" I feel parts of the experience has significantly improved since last I used Mac, for example I can now remap ctrl and fn!
On the other hand I still miss the consistency and ease of use of Windows XP, Gnome 2 or KDE Plasma.
Then again, Windows manages to get a little bit worse every release, Gnome 2 was replaced with Unity (on Ubuntu) and later Gnome 3 which I understand still breaks extensions and which I still don't like despite trying hard.
When my Shield started showing ads I installed another launcher—wish Apple were nearly as open.
Apple Music sends ads to my Lock Screen, every time I search it’s automatically set to “Apple music” despite being turned off and no subscription so gives me no results, I have to change the option every time, every few months I get an ad I have to dismiss opening my music collection. The listening queue doesn’t seem to work anymore I can’t add things to it and repeat no longer works in a sane way.
I feel this would be unthinkable in the time before Tim Cook’s Apple.
My canary was the iOS 18 update on my iPhone SE 2nd generation.
In all my years of using iOS, i never had long pauses, but switching between safari and other apps i sometimes had pauses around 10 seconds. Maybe it is the SwiftUI change; i'm not sure.
I did upgrade to the SE v3 and haven't really seen many pauses. But i am not a power user by any means and was seeing the problem often, along with some other glitches.
Just to be clear: it wasn't like the applications were lagging, it was as if the entire OS was crawling.
I tried a Macbook again when the M1 chips came out, and wasn't impressed with the performance. Despite incredible benchmarks, the interface just felt bloated and sluggish.
The biggest issue for me though was Darwin's weird psuedo-complete unix environment. All of my production servers are Linux, and it's a real pain to have to torture software that works great on Linux over to Apple's OS. Homebrew is nice, but even that would fail sometimes, and if the software wasn't available I would have to wait for someone smarter than me to port it. Also, it's weird that the community has to maintain this despite Apple having a gajillion dollars because they simply do not care about OSS.
More of a personal ancedote, but in the end all I'm really using a computer for is a web browser, code editing, and running linux production software locally. Just made more sense to stay on Linux, which I run on an excellent Framework laptop. It feels nice to be out of the software bloat treadmill.
I feel like M chips are for those who’s upgrade cycle is over 5 years like me. Coming from MBP 2015 to M2 is stunning.
What distro do you run on the framework? Ubuntu feels bloated and the software is old. The framework laptop is much, much worse than a MacBook Pro. The comparison isn't even remotely apples to apples.
I wish there was a perfect solution, but man. Comparing a framework laptop with ubuntu to an MBP with MacOS is crazy from anything but a cost perspective.
Xubuntu. It doesn't feel bloated at all. The software I use is Firefox and VSC, which update almost on a weekly basis sometimes, neither of them feel "old". I've actually been considering switching to something else from VSC because it changes too much and is getting kind of bloated for me, I really just want a text editor with syntax highlighting and a file list on the left panel.
If I was to nit-pick, I would say that having competing package managers apt and snap is annoying and I've considered switching to Debian over that.
The real surprise to me was that I liked the Framework trackpad more than the Macbook one. I assumed that would be the best thing about the Macbook and was surprised when it wasn't.
I sold it to a friend and she loved it. To each their own I guess.
Figure I’ll add my own obscure bug that’s never fixed. Apple finally released a Dvorak keyboard for iOS. Except a lot of times it bugs out and stays in QWERTY mode just for swipe typing even when you’re in the Dvorak layout.
I believe emojis are pretty popular this days, yet searching for one on macOS has been broken for years
1. Press Fn key twice to open Emoji picker
2. Type to search
3. Hover an emoji
4. Press Esc to empty search for box and start a new search
5. Type
You can't type. Focus is lost somewhere, impossible to search again for an emoji without closing the panel and open it again. My coworkers have all installed a third-party emoji picker to work around this issue, which is absurd from Apple's standpoint.
How can Apple engineers not be aware of such issues? Did they ever inserted an emoji from macOS?
I'd consider the tools in the iPhone's Photos app to be amongst the most "core" features - yet there've been glitches in it for the past year where if you annotate a picture (say, by adding text), the position of everything you've added is screwed up when you hit 'Done'. I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg.
Techrot is real and it's there in almost every major big tech product. Google does definitely take the gold medal in this category though as I have never seen so many bugs in production software by a trillion dollar company as I have seen in Google's.
1. Maps crashes almost every ride on Car Play (this used to happen a lot back in 2023 and was fixed for majority of 2024. Seems like it regressed again)
2. Trying to expand reviews on Google Maps expands the wrong review (100% reproducible, not an edge case)
3. Firebase Auth has terrible reliability when it comes to SMS delivery and fail rate of like 5-10%.
4. Gmail keeps opening links with the wrong account (Click on Google meet link from an email in account number 2, as in .../u/2/... . Link opens with account 0 and now you gotta switch accounts again).
5. Gemini is famously unreliable and produces wrong results for seemingly simple queries.
And many more I can't recall on top of my head but surely exist.
They design AirPods and its cases to break on impact. They make it so slippery that it would be a stretch not to say that they designed it felicitate fatal falls. And after all this, they used glue to glue it in such a way that it comes off if it didn’t fall. Then they just ask you to buy a new case — yes, they don’t glue or do such lowly repairs. They have the gall to explicitly say that it would be repairable by glue but they won’t do that. Not to mention batteries which are designed for obsoletion. Cases and parts are made perfectly irreparable. And that’s just AirPods case!!!!
Premium hardware my foot! They are lucky to be in a convenient duopoly.
> I call on Apple to return to its roots - creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists. The company that once proudly created products that "just work" needs to reclaim that ethos.
But this is a mythic past, not the real one, embarrassing software bugs have always been present! Moreover, it's never been limited to just software, remember premium laptop keyboard design fiasco, for example.
That's not true in my experience. I started at Apple in 1995 and user experience was king. Honestly, Jobs return was more or less the start of the decline (but, not of the stock price of AAPL of course).
Why did Apple engineering culture decline then? It became top-down, no longer bottom-up.
I used to do thousands of interviews across the industry and I vividly remember Apple backend devs being almost always unmitigated disasters. They would always pick Java and could barely use it - to the point where a for loop would be challenging. Their Swift guys were fairly decent though IIRC.
Apple had to switch CPU architectures and build their just to make their OS feel as snappy as KDE and Gnome does on mid-tier hardware. I wonder how long it will take until enough technical debt accumulates to a point where Mac OS feels like it drags again.
The absolute worst was the transition to SSDs if you were stuck on a hard to upgrade HDD-based Mac. It became super clear that Apple devs stopped caring in the span of a year.
Mojave made my Mac Mini mid-2015 without an SSD completely unusable.
A recent blog post in the Apple fanboy world posited that Apple has slow, non-user-adjustable animations that make the OS feel slow. That's basically why a user thinks KDE or Gnome is snappier. It has nothing to do with CPU architecture.
I still have an Intel Mac and it doesn't feel significantly slower than one with Apple silicon.
> KDE or Gnome is snappier.
Last time I installed Gnome I had to install an extension to remove the 150ms delay on alt-tabbing that is present even when animations are disabled. It became snappy after that.
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/2741/remove-alttab-de...
As for KDE I did not find how to disable animations when using Wayland. I would be happy to know (while keeping Wayland).
(I still prefer using customizable OSS software over "we know better than you" closed source software)
Rubbish. You Linux-only guys post this nonsense on any thread criticising competing OSs thinking the rest of us have no experience using them. I daily-drive older hardware (Xeon E5 with 16GB RAM and GTX 1080 ti), which is essentially all midtier is, and GNOME is a stuttery mess. It struggles to drive 4K. It's slow to load software, and what is available is often a UX mess (what have they got against menus?!). Discoverability is low. Disk access is slow. Tried BTRFS, ZFS and Ext4 - none of them make a difference. KDE is no better - how many modals or check boxes are needed for one option?
See, we can all pour scorn on other operating systems. The real problem lies in the expectations that people place upon these platforms. Despite my complaints, I actually enjoy using Linux on a desktop (laptops are another story). If I listened to a lot of you, my expectations would definitely not be met.
I use Linux, Apple OS and Windows.
Apple OS. Indeed.
You got me! Not a daily user since it was OS X. Started on Tiger, but still often use it
I really hope someone high up the chain at Apple reads this post because it's only the tip of the iceberg in describing the myriad of things wrong with Apple's software experience lately. For a company so flush with cash and resources, it boggles the mind how they could let things get this bad.
Feedback doesn’t work so I stopped reporting them. Bugs take about a decade to be fixed and they’re introducing them in a faster pace.
It sends as if nobody at Apple is either a power user or an “abuser” (like many old people who have 50+ email windows open on their iPad because the ui is not very good for them anymore)
I’d love to work at some for a year and only fix bugs and performance issues. It’s very rewarding work imo.
It's been bad since iTunes became a garbage heap.
There are pockets of competence, but it's not a company priority (even the audio/video apps suffer). That such mediocrity has crept into the OS is even worse.
Just a note to say that I have the exact same issue as the author in Freeform on my 13 inch iPad Air. It heats up to the point that the screen dims, and then dims again and the iPad is uncomfortable to hold. It doesn’t take long for this to happen either.
In contrast, the iPad does not overheat when painting for extended periods in procreate.
Author here, incredible how much more demanding applications (at least on paper) don't suffer from the same pitfalls of Apple's native apps.
By the looks of it, it's a widespread issue.
Was this run through ChatGPT? It’s formatting with numbered lists and bullet points with bold titles followed by colons is identical.
In the current MacOS release, if I type Time Machine in the System Settings search box, it shows what I was looking for: "Show Time Machine status in the menu bar".
But if I click that, it shows the switch for the Keyboard Brightness menu bar control, and doesn't show anything about the Time Machine menu bar item!
Apple cannot figure out how to do a search in settings for the life of them. It's been broken on iOS basically since it was added. Do any googling about iOS settings search and you'll only find people talk about it to rant about how bad it is.
The absurd thing is that Apple pioneered searching settings in early MacOS. You type your query and a spotlight effect shined on the corresponding Preferences Panel for the selected candidate of your search results. Hence why Spotlight was called that originally.
somewhat similar problem, but I always go for time machine settings, it always wants me to open the time machine drive. Searching for time machine worked better on my imac dv. Not to mention you can only use google as your search engine in spotlight when major browsers have let you change it for the last decade or two
Is this a real problem, or a perceived problem?
I know people like to complain about Apple's software quality - but is this actually an issue - or just the popular thing to say?
It’s not worse than Microsoft.
But somehow, Microsoft and Apple are inferior to their previous selves.
New features and bug fixes, yes. But we seem to lose a lot. In terms of quality, performance and unfeatures.
I'm aware of UI inconsistencies, like this dated article below.
https://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/macos-12-monte...
But was curious is are people having stability & reliability type of software quality problems.
I am. Many of my old launchd services don’t work anymore. Well they run, the job begins, but then it can’t write to its files. I have no clue how they borked the permissions but something is up. The script works when I run it myself. As far as I can tell the launchd process should run the script as me the user in terms of permissions. It manages to run the script but doesn’t write to file. I am at a loss and gave up on debugging those services for now.
Is this a real bug? I recently got a MacOS device for the first time, and I have been frustrated that I couldn't get my custom service to work. Just like you, the script writes to files when I run it myself, but does nothing as a service.
I've been debugging it on and off for a couple of months because I assumed I messed something up.
My own experience has been the opposite. Early versions of OS/X were dire, things like a kernel panic when removing an already ejected USB stick.
People like to point at Snow Leopard as being the peak of reliability but there are two things to consider about that. The first is that the previous versions were so bad that they had to stop creating new features and do a bug fix only release. The other is that it still needed countless updates through the following year.
If you want an example of something they have done exceptionally well take a look at the rollout of APFS on the iPhone. They replaced the filing system on millions of phones with barely a murmur from the community.
I think you are correct, people like to whinge (especially here).
And yet I think we're at another point where things are so bad that we need another bug-fix-only release. (Or two or three in a row.)
When I bought my first Mac (M2) I could reliably freeze the screenshot app by clicking 2-3 buttons in the right order. It was fixed months later at least. To this day the mouse hover zoom animation for the dock freezes regularly and it happens on two separate devices. "Coincidentally" this animation was disabled by default. The preinstalled image viewer cannot open more than about 50 images without randomly distributing them across multiple windows and/or spamming a series of error messages telling me that some of the files cannot be accessed. When I click on certain video files in the file open dialog, some thumbnail process allocates over 25GB memory within seconds and the system becomes near unusable for a minute or two.
I would say it’s roughly comparable to Windows 10/11, which fell off a cliff in terms of quality. But to be fair Mac OS can handle much longer uptimes, today my Macbook force rebooted after about 250 days and it ran perfectly fine up to that point.
I don’t have any issues, but I am that person who uses just web browser and terminal on Macbook. Almost all software comes from Nix package repository.
Idk but sometimes slack just takes over the screen and crashes the display drivers pretty regularly. You could put that to badly written software but I don't think display drivers should crash.
Using macOS since Tiger as daily driven. Never been worse. Needs a “Snow Leopard” year.
> Never been worse.
How so? Would you mind giving examples.
Note: I'm not disagreeing. Just curious what software quality issues you're having exactly.
I see others have responded with specifics. That's cool and all but it seems a bit futile to me because Apple has all this data internally and could act upon it if they wished.
Certainly with "crashers" there are crash reports from the field (you and I) that are sent back home and filtered into various databases. Internal tool allow Apple to see the "top crashers" (and you can filter to specific OS, hardware, etc.). There will be Radars filed for these and they will be sent to the appropriate teams.
The issue of course is the degree to which these take priority over feature work, etc. If Apple decided to do nothing but address these for a year or two we could have nice things again.
Not who you responded to but I've been looking now after reading this discussion and here are some things I've come up with in the last minute or so.
- Why when I drag the Safari window up to go full screen with the tiling manager does it leave a large gap around the window? When I double click the top bar it aligns the top and bottom with the edges but still leaves a gap on the sides.
- Why does the settings dialog have so much lag? It takes a couple of seconds to launch and then when navigating around there is a roughly one second lag between panels.
- Why can't I uninstall default Mac apps that I have never opened?
- If I open up task view using F3, why is there no option to exit the window or program?
- If I have a Safari window open in a smaller window and double click the task bar, why does it maximize the way it does? Leaving a large section open.
> - Why when I drag the Safari window up to go full screen with the tiling manager does it leave a large gap around the window? When I double click the top bar it aligns the top and bottom with the edges but still leaves a gap on the sides.
It's a feature. System Settings > Desktop & Dock > Tiled windows have margins.
> - Why does the settings dialog have so much lag? It takes a couple of seconds to launch and then when navigating around there is a roughly one second lag between panels.
Each 'panel' is actually an app extension that runs its own process. Similar to extensions and control panels in classic MacOS.
> - Why can't I uninstall default Mac apps that I have never opened?
This is annoying.
> - If I open up task view using F3, why is there no option to exit the window or program?
You mean 'Misson Control'? Dunno, but there is an inexpensive addon that addresses this. https://www.fadel.io/missioncontrolplus
> - If I have a Safari window open in a smaller window and double click the task bar, why does it maximize the way it does? Leaving a large section open.
The modern macOS UX is an amalgamation of Classic MacOS and NeXTSTEP, neither of which really has the concept of "maximised" in the same sense as Windows does. The action you describe "zooms" the window to best fit the content. The parallel to "maximised" is full screen.
Icons with no text everywhere.
The icons in the top bar getting extreme spacing
Spotlight search is a complete mess
Update nagging every time i wake my mac from sleep
Basically the whole iOSification of macOS
Aside from security fixes and improvements I rarely use anything in OS X that wasn't there many versions ago. I wish they'd try a "long term support" model instead of annually releasing bug ridden OS versions that don't provide me any benefit. The main benefit seems to be to Apple, planned obsolescence etc
Apple really should slow down their release cycles and focus on quality for a while. Apple Music on macOS is such an embarrassment. The UI is a mess. Airplay is broken. I just want my old fashioned but decent Mac applications back.
MacOS has gone downhill like crazy indeed. On an M4, searching my safari history is super slow, searching for a password in the Passwords app is also really slow. I mean these are just lists. Apps steal focus all the time, Finder window column widths reset whenever they feel like, search in Mail sometimes just refuses to work. iCloud tab syncing? haha, not today, maybe next week again. You could probably write a dissertation on the new, new system preferences app.
This is not only an Apple problem. Most software developed today is in a terrible state. What boggles me the most is that how users are immune against it - it's so normal that software doesn't work or has bugs that most users don't even get upset - it's just the way it is. It's software - what can you do? :(
Apple has no decent solution for the issue of the cursor moving if you accidentally touch the touchpad while you're typing text (other than disabling the touchpad and using a mouse).
Like they couldn't implement some heuristic that could be enabled in settings, to ignore touches that occur close to simultaneously with textual keystrokes.
Several times a day, I'm typing, and suddenly, the cursor jumps in the middle of earlier text where a fragment of the tail end of my typing goes before I notice and stop. I then have to undo that, and retype it at the end.
Using the backend services (iTunes Connect, etc.) is painful.
Also, don't get me started on the current state of "documentation." At one time, Apple had a huge team of ridiculously overqualified documentation people. They often had better chops than the engineers.
This reminds me of the recent reading of "Inside Macintosh" on archive.org. I really hope they produce similar paper documentations nowadays. I'd love to hold a dictionary of obscure Mac internal knowledge.
We had the whole set.
It was amazing, and spoiled me. There was a similar set of books about BSD UNIX, as well. Don't remember the exact title, but it was pretty awesome.
Right now, it looks like they are relying completely on, on headerdoc comments.
It can work, but someone needs to spend a lot of time on these comments, and they need to do so, at a “holistic” level, coordinating all the various systems.
They have done a fairly good job, so far, but it’s really starting to fray; especially in the newer systems.
If there was a competitive market, this thread would be a marketing gold mine.
If the computer industry endgame is for users to consume media via simple voice interfaces and AI, what is the business model for serving the smaller market of professional users who need powerful, classic HCI interfaces for creating new artifacts?
Tell me about it. My iPhone cannot backup up, neither could me predecessor phone.
Escalated all the way to developers. Their 'analysis'. Whatsapp is supposedly blocking 4TeB on my iCloud account which is not available.
I asked whether they might have misread that as WhatsApp says 4GiB and even if , that would still be an iOS bug (why allow that?).
No reaction anymore.
This seems like the natural progression of agile and promoting frequent releases - more shallow features and bugs, less optimisation
So if they were using waterfall, they would produce fewer bugs? Or what are you trying to say?
long term consequences of running an H1B gulag and underpaying relative to industry
After updating to iOS 18.3.1, my iPhone 14 Pro Max has encountered many strange bugs. For example, the camera's balance indicator randomly disappears. Additionally, the battery drains significantly faster. I hope Apple can fix these weird bugs as soon as possible.
I feel there's a cliff drop of quality in both hardware and software with the release of Big Sur, the version where I believe they rewrote a lot of the softwares. It's very obvious when I replaced my 2015 MacBook Pro with a 2020 MacBook Pro M1, everything downgraded, but now I'm getting used to software being clunky and buggy.
I always really liked a lot of apple software, like Preview.app. It's a viewer for almost everything, images, documents, 3d models, but it doesn't feel bloat at all, I'm glad Apple doesn't seem to change the app much. Also shocked the first time I found out TextEdit.app is also a WYSIWYG HTML editor.
In Apples position I would set up a little task force that goes through everything single bug mentioned in this thread and fixes it.
I would really love to hear how development at Apple is going nowadays. Fixing many of the things requires cross-team collaboration and I thought that was a no-go.
The mail got broken. Somewhere in 18 iOS release. I am also getting weird touch issues. Almost impossible to reproduce and I have no time for 20 Genius Bar appointments to prove it. I will buy another iPhone in 5 years again, maybe the one I have is the unlucky one.
I have been reporting several bugs through the Feedback app you get access to when you are part of the beta program. There is to many menus and no search option to find the right “department” to report to, so I have almost stopped giving feedback on bugs.
I guess the fixes have to start there first.
Author here, I used the Apple's Product Feedback page[0] countless times, I don't have the Feedback app since I'm running the _stable_ builds of all their OSes.
[0] https://www.apple.com/feedback/
Shortcuts.
Have you tried using Shortcuts on ANY Apple device? It's a fucking mess.
It is impossible to write Shortcuts with code. Consequently, this means that you're stuck with the no-code workflow builder.
Unfortunately, the no-code builder is a hog! Moving actions around within the panel will cause Shortcuts to lock up. Sometimes, Shortcuts will just refuse to reorder actions when you move them. Exiting and re-opening is the only fix.
Then there's running Shortcuts. Shortcuts appear like they can run anywhere on first glance. Try running a Shortcut to append text to a note on Apple Watch. You can't. But Shortcuts will gladly spin lock for two minutes doing whatever the fuck before yielding a "Remote Message Execution timeoit" that is Apple speak for "watchOS doesn't support appending to notes," or "you're saving a file into an iCloud directory that doesn't exist, and I'm not going to create it for you because no" or "your phone's off and I could connect to iCloud, but I'd rather not and piss you off instead."
But say you go through ALL of that and build your perfect complex shortcut that makes your life much easier. You'll find out later that year when the new iOS drops that a few of the actions in your Shortcut were silently changed and now the entire thing doesn't work!
You'll spend hours fixing it, wishing you were on Android the entire time but remembering that your Apple Watch actually is useful sometimes and everything on that side is SO MUCH WORSE because Apple has insane economies of scale and patents the shit out of everything.
This is just the tip of my iceberg of grievances with Apple software.
AirPods whose case dies every three days and often fails to switch between devices despite it being a flagship feature. Accidentally changing tracks when you raise-wake your phone. LITERALLY EVERYTHING about the keyboard. I could easily go on.
But, hey, at least Apple Intelligence can summarize my emails so I can think even less.
I miss the Apple that made Apple Mail, Calendars, Reminders and Notes. Those apps were made _before laptops were mainstream_ but are STILL the best at what they do while being mostly private and on-device.
If you want to type your shortcuts, there’s a tool that turns code into plist imports. https://scpl.dev/
Mine is that running multiple network extensions (like Tailscale, Little Snitch, a VPN) causes networking to randomly stop working. The only solution is to not use more than one network extension at a time.
Software quality across the board is in decline IMO.
I'm not sure if anyone else experiences this but there's a bug in the display settings where:
- high resolution high refresh rate display (max res and refresh rate are higher than DP1.2 bandwidth)
- attached to dock through DP
- macbook lid is closed and plugged into dock
the attached display defaults to the highest resolution, even though it's unsupported by TB3. This leads to a black screen. Changing the resolution by opening the lid doesn't fix this because closing the lid will return the external display to the default resolution.
Yea, I used to use Apple Notes for everything until their recent big update where it became very jittery. (even on an iPhone). The web-version of Apple Notes always sucked.
I am using Notion now, and even though that is kinda janky on an iPhone, it is still better than Apple's own notes, and of course, their web-version is much much much better than Apple's.
Try noteplan
The World needs more Snow Leopards.
Here's a weird bug. If you have on your iphone, photo slide show (i had it set to cities and nature), and then with a charger wire in then just try to use your phone, the touch digitizer goes crazy, as if there's some weird interference. Switch back to a standard wallpaper mode, and the problem goes away. iphone 14pro
I have two AppleTVs (2021 models), and they cannot play video on other streaming services after watching something on Apple TV+. Typically the view loads for the video, shows the first frame, and overlays the loading circle element until reboot. Killing apps and reloading doesn't fix it.
I'm not sure how this is possible, but it's trivial to replicate and is only resolved by rebooting the device.
I have an issue with Messenger notifications on one device, a laptop. The messages get delivered just as quickly on this laptop as on other devices, but the notifications can take minutes to come up. Also, the number of unread messages sometimes gets stuck out of sync, for example showing 1 when I have no unread messages. I've tried rebooting, and I've tried disabling and re-enabling notifications.
I'm still on Sonoma, so the next thing I could try is updating to Sequoia, but that feels foolish. Only one thing is wrong. It could be worse. How often does updating software actually make it better? Apple should feel like the exception to that cynicism, but it doesn't, which is bad news for them, since their entire business is predicated on being the exception.
A premium product that's worth the money. That's such an easy thing for people to stop believing in if the reality doesn't live up to it.
Message notifications are just a mess. At this point it only notifies me for about half my messages no matter what device I'm on.
Apple should Open Source its OSes and internal apps. Of course this is very NOT-Apple, but it would allow folks to fix their apps. There's really no advantage to keeping it all proprietary. Apple's software teams are completely under water whereas Apple customers are diehards and would gleefully help fix issues. It would avoid the need to reproduce problems internally prior to ranking their importance for the internal team to fix. Besides, MacOS roots are in Open Source.
I wish.. First they should let their paying customers run whatever applications they want on the box they own. Annoying that so few linux apps exist over here because of the $99 developer fee
Apple is in the hardware business. At some point, they used software to lure people in buying expensive hardware.
Since now their hardware is a bit better than others, maybe they care less of software quality.
The phenomenon of software quality/usability going down aka the second system effect isn't specific to Mac OS, to say the least. I actually left Linux behind on the desktop which has gross regressions since 2016 yet unlike Mac OS hasn't gained a single app or end user feature to make up for it.
There’s a far larger surface area of software for bugs to occur in these days.
Of course that’s balanced by larger teams working on said software.
This suggests Apple is under-invested in QA, which is a pretty easy fix for a sufficiently senior manager.
Apple’s senior management hopefully read HN. Maybe these posts are being read by the right people.
We have a good set of feature requests from app store that would make catching issues like this infinitely easy.
1. Revamp TestFlight - 10k users is very little when user base is 100m+ users. 2. Improve phased roll out capabilities 3. Introduce a/b testing at release level to test old/new binaries at binary level (vs at feature, which is also a must have).
These 3 can catch 99% of release bound issues, no problem.
I’ve had three show-stopping bugs across core apple software in the last month — I wish the competition was better!
My issue, macOS:
Use Notes and enable pop-up from the corner of the screen.
I've been unable to select the Note that pops up from the corner, without creating a New note. Then only that new one pops up.
The iOS Mail app has gotten so bad. It shows errors for no reason whatosover. The other day I typed a message and hit sent (and status showed all synced) but it was not sent and not even in draft.
Any recommendations for an alternative?
I still remember the story of an IMAP bug Apple mail had for years and years. I forgot exactly what the bug was that was open with Apple, but Apple’s way of addressing the bug was turning off the feature in an update and closing out the ticket.
In general if I buy some hardware and the OS is ok, but any supplier apps are just an afterthought. If that be from Huawei, Samsung, Microsoft, Apple, etc, a TV, a phone, a computer. On my iphone I have a folder with all the Apple apps, just in case) but otherwise I use other apps. I also have an extra Samsung phone, same thing.
Supplied apps are free and therefore paid for otherwise. Normally full of ads and only sporadically receive updates to repair bugs or add new features.
The goal is often only to keep my tight to their platform, be it Samsung, Apple, etc. Those apps are an investment in the future which probably do not do well in a companies one quarter horizon.
I've started to wonder whether there might be any internal resistance at Apple to the move to SwiftUI, which has brought some benefits but also a whole host of odd behaviors in all kinds of places.
There's probably an alternate history where they would have stuck with AppKit for a few more years until LLMs got to the point they are now, and then dove in to leveraging LLMs to make AppKit development easier (essentially leaning into human language "declarative" programming rather than conventional declarative programming).
This is not the only instance of the software quality crisis in Apple.
<Warning: long and extremely critical rant incoming>
TL;DR Apple just does not have a qualified team (from the top) or the right team size (the one in the company is far too small).
I test beta releases of Apple’s OSes and report issues. I’ve seen a few factors over several years:
* There is not enough QA (or probably no QA at all) at Apple. So many bugs just creep through to release even after having been reported with tons of information and system logs provided. There is no attention paid to any bug report unless it is known and believed (by someone at Apple) to affect hundreds of users. Even then there’s little chance of attention to it.
* There is no feedback loop from Apple back to the bug reporter — you toss your bug report and assume it goes into some black hole.
* The direction of software development in Apple has moved to taking whatever is done on iOS — with a mediocre approach and plan — everywhere else. This includes things like Catalyst (the main reason you’d hate a macOS app from Apple). Try navigating Reminders or Music or any other Catalyst app on macOS with the keyboard — it’s as if the developers have never ever heard of tab order or have never used a keyboard that has non-alphabetical and non-numeric keys.
* Continuing on the previous point, Apple’s own app developers know something about how to create a mediocre iOS app, but over time the developer base has changed such that it has no knowledge of or history with desktop operating systems. I have no idea what top executives like Craig Federighi are even doing and why (I’m sounding generous here) they’re seemingly held hostage to such poor quality.
* When you look at the issues across device platforms and OSes, Apple seems to have one tiny team of software developers who work part time on all of those. Monday is iOS OS day, Tuesday is iPadOS day, Wednesday is macOS day, Thursday is iOS app day, Friday is iOS app day, Saturday is Apple Intelligence day and Sunday is a tvOS, homeOS and AirPods day. Apple’s services get a few hours here and there every few months.
"Feels too hot" is hardly an objective measurement. Why worry about something that "may" occur. Use your device. If it fails take it in a get it replaced under warranty.
I want a MacBook Air with Linux running on it perfectly, audio, microphones everything. Would be so nice.
Yeah, especially if the touchpad worked flawlessly too. A distant dream
I tried an iPhone for three months or so, ending a month ago, and I was really disappointed by the experience. I thought Apple was still a company that focused on UX, but it was eye-opening to see that they had lost their way.
There are four distinct ways to go back (swipe from the left/right side, press the X, press the left arrow, swipe down), whereas Android has one way that always goes back to the previous screen. The inability to set volumes separately, the fact that folders hold exactly 9 icons and leave the other 60% of the screen empty, the fact that a very commonly-used button (the back arrow) is at the hardest-to-reach part of the screen, all of that just made for a really frustrating experience.
Linus basically echoes all my gripes in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhew95wMmP8
After that, I bought a Nothing 2, and I love it. It's snappier than the iPhone, feels premium, and Android has stolen all of the good ideas iOS had and added more.
I went from using a series of Android phones, including a number of flagship phones and finally tried iPhone in 2018 after custom keyboards became available (no way I'd accept the built in back then).
At that point the cheapest iPhone option available outperformed every android phone I'd used at that point and I was sold.
Still think the software could need some love but at least it does not feel like my phone has to do a call to a lagging wev service to open the camera.
Yep, things weren't great 7 years ago.
I used Android for the better part of a decade, and once I switched to an iPhone I never really had any issues around not having a back button, considering the amount I hear complaining about it.
Basically every app lets you swipe from the left to go back. Occasionally you'll have a bottom sheet you can swipe back down to where it came from, but it's generally pretty intuitive. I can't think of many times I felt "stuck" and unable to go back.
It's not about getting stuck, as then that would be terrible. It's just about the thousand papercuts my experience was.
I forgot the biggest annoyance that ultimately made me abandon the experiment: the keyboard is ATROCIOUS. On Android, I just hit keys in the general vicinity of what I want, and it writes the right thing, every time. On iOS, with the exact same keyboard, it kept making mistake after mistake.
Both the stock keyboard and SwiftKey were terrible on iOS. I'd understand the stock keyboard being bad, whatever. I don't understand how SwiftKey can be great on one platform and horrible on the other.
I hate many details from Apple's software, but most stuff people are complaining about is solved by downloading an app/plugin that does it. However, this should not be the case when you're paying for a 'premium' OS. It's highly frustrating and time consuming.
At this point I think I've spent more time tweaking macOS settings, downloading and testing stuff than I did when I had Ubuntu as my work OS. Ridiculous.
It may not be perfect, but the alternatives I've tried have so far been even worse. I have a Windows 11 gaming PC, and oh boy that is an OS that deliberately tries to give you a bad day, and Linux ... well, if you don't want config tinkering to replace your day job then it's simply not something usable for most modern hardware as it doesn't even have a display server that actually works well (Wayland breaks almost all Electron apps, which is like, most apps these days, and makes X11 apps look tiny and horrible due to the clusterfuck that is fractional scaling on Linux) and for some reason every now and again my vanilla Linux install simply just crashes. It has also borked itself mid video call for reasons unclear. Definitely not an OS I'd like to use for any professional work since it seems to have the stability of Win 2000.
Title should be something like “Apple Pencil Pro causes iPad to overheat and slow down”. This sounds really annoying, but the overly broad title is just clickbait.
In my experience, this bug - lags and overheating when drawing with the Apple Pencil - exists since iPadOS 16. When searching for it on the web, I found lots of reports and no indication that it is solved, including by hardware replacements.
In any case, HN's guidelines ask to use the original title of an article, unless it is misleading or linkbait. I'd agree that Apple's software quality has been going down.
iPad OS is largely dysfunctional in a myriad of other areas too. I like my iPad but the number of times Chrome or a simple app just freezes is getting out of hand. Also there is a bug where the iPad will freeze if I had a Bluetooth device connect while the device is locked. I think this got fixed in some recent update but it happened frequently for well over a year and it'll lock the iPad for 15-60 minutes at a time.
These issues are becoming more recurring. Meanwhile Apple is trying to sell me on some stupid intelligence that I do not need.
Stuff went downhill since iOS 13 and macOS 11
Glad it's not just me thinking that. The amount of UI bugs I encountered in the last few macOS versions is fairly annoying.
Very often, when I switch input keyboards between English/Mandarin, the popup that appears to indicate the selected language just won't go away automatically. I have to manually go and click somewhere to get rid of it. Also had loads of issues with notifications not rendering correctly.
iOS 18.3.1 bricked my wifi and bluetooth. Can't connect to anything. MacBook Pro cannot open discord, slack, mail due to an os issue. Apple has such great hardware but the software has so many bugs, you start looking around for alternatives.
I recently switched from an Android to an iphone and the writing experience (keyboard, text selection, scrolling) are so frustrating. I initially thought I must not be used to it but then found so many people had the same problem. I didn't expect this from Apple.
> Feature prioritization over optimization: Engineering resources appear focused on new capabilities rather than fixing existing performance problems;
People are keeping their phones longer they used to, which is obviously a problem for device makers. Therefore they must lean on new feature development too sell new phones. "Increased reliability and stability" is not a good consumer sales pitch
> "Increased reliability and stability" is not a good consumer sales pitch
It is when Apple is claimed to be a quality boutique shop.
> claimed to be a quality boutique shop
Have they made that claim anytime in the last few decades?
Perhaps that's the vibe behind their marketing, but you'd have to be blind to their size, sales, and market value to believe it.
> Have they made that claim anytime in the last few decades?
I'm not sure that Apple themselves ever really did.
So it becomes even more important when people stop associating Apple's software with quality when it was people who started to associate it as such in the first place.
A few yeas ago my friend had his iphone replaced three times under warranty. Every single time the mic failed and it came up with a message after boot that an audio device had failed. His next phone was an Android one.
question for all the linux users out there, which DE most closely follows the windowing style on a mac(preferably out of the box/with a script)? I've enjoyed the multi-virtual-desktop windowing style during my stay here but as noted, the experience isn't keeping pace
Vanilla GNOME has most of the features you'd expect from Mac windowing. It doesn't go out of it's way to replicate the Mac desktop, but IMO it's much simpler as a result.
Been running GNOME for about 2 years now and the experience is really smooth. If you've got a Magic Trackpad, it works wonders on modern Linux. I also recommend GSConnect or Valent for a handoff-like experience with your phone:
https://valent.andyholmes.ca/
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1319/gsconnect/
This is eating almost every Apple device and not to mention the entire Apple' devices ecosystem as well.
Window placement with multiple monitors is broken beyond belief. I am hoping someone from Apple is reading this thread.
If you open the lid and connect screen in a short time. It sometimes end up showing every desktop in mission control as black square. And only way to fix it is disconnect and reconnect the screen again. The bug is there for so long and I already have the muscle memory to perform the sequence. How did they messed up such a basic function?
There is no way that apple employee did not hit the bug at all given the requirement to trigger the bug is so simple.
Software problems like we are seeing are not something that happen over night. They slowly appear until you can’t see them. It takes years of bad design and decisions to get what we have.
I see this throughout the industry and can’t help conclude the problem started about 5 years ago, and we thus we are now seeing the results of Covid and possibly WFO.
I don't think this has to do with Covid or WFH. It is more likely that Apple is focused on showing huge profit margins, at the expense of hiring qualified staff, due to a quarter by quarter focus, in a mature market. When one person leaves, they don't get backfilled. You can hide a lot of sins with the aggressive push from marketing and focusing on hardware performance. How do you measure software experience? How do you brag about it?
You are right that it has been a cumulative process, and the issues will continue to accumulate. But it has nothing to do with Covid or WFH. It started years before that.
Apple is known for their refusal to fix bugs.
One example where it is almost 2 years since they "made" a fix, but have not yet released it.
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=254545#c32
Again ?
Feels like we have been here before.
My daughter uses one of my old 2017 Macbook pros (nice hardware, everything works fine). I learned yesterday that she cannot use Pages because OSX cannot be upgraded to 10.14, which is a requirement for Pages (I suspect the same thing will happen with other Apple software).
Something there doesn't add up. Mojave came out in late 2018. It's simply not the case there is any 2017 Apple hardware it doesn't support. Indeed, laptop support goes back to anything made in 2012 or newer.
Why is device overheating considered a software problem?
If one is not a device for mining, which can not be overheat-able at all, the problem is too much bloatware.
Probably something chewing up CPU cycles.
>But if software quality continues to decline, this value proposition becomes increasingly difficult to defend.
If software quality keeps declining, this proposition isn’t just difficult to defend — it’s indefensible and an insult to consumers. Apple has lagged behind Android for a decade, and its software now fails at tasks Symbian OS handled effortlessly.
I've dealt with clunky software all my life, but Apple is the first ecosystem where things are outright unfixable. "It just works" — until it doesn’t, and then you’re out of options.
A few examples of Apple's atrocious software design:
- Rather than universal "open with" controls, iOS forces you to open files with a random selection of apps. Want to edit an image in Snapseed? Too bad, Photos won’t let you. But it will let you use it to "find products on Amazon". I get that this is up to the app developers - but a simpler solution would've been global "Open With" functionality.
- Call recordings over 20 minutes freeze the Notes app, making them impossible to move. No fix for months.
- Changing a wallpaper takes nearly six steps.
- The Home Screen follows non-Euclidean geometry whenever you try to move an icon
- The Settings app search is useless: searching "Camera" shows privacy settings, not the Camera app settings (which aren’t in the Camera app, because of course they aren’t).
- Probably a dozen other niggles you just learn to "live with" on a $1000 phone (and which people with a $200 Android don't even have to think about)
No company has as much contempt for its users as Apple, both from their design philosophy of keeping as much control away from users as possible, and the pricing strategy that pretends like this shitfest is a premium experience. But the users are also to blame - they create the cult that enables this.
On most forums, complaining about Apple just gets you a "why did you buy it then lol" response from users - and absolute silence from Apple.
In a better world, this company would be boycotted by consumers. This forces it to reset and try harder.
>Memory Management Problems
I suspect some quadratic or worse algorithm in the handwriting curve rendering.
When software is so bad that tactics “just throw more hardware inside” stops working.
I know people tend to get very upset by this but if I’m not mistaken the M1, M2 and I think the M3 processors all now have “unfixable” hardware level security bugs on par with SPECTRE that destroy the concept of a Secure Enclave AFAIK.
https://wccftech.com/macs-running-apples-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-...
So essentially they might be fast but they all have genuinely fatal flaws in them.
But it’s not just the software that stinks.
when I learned that fact it made me feel as if I want to switch away on a hair trigger, I do wonder if other modern arm platforms are safer, or just less scrutinized, and if Apple is still safer than Intel?
recently switched from android to ios and it's buggy as hell
airdropping from phone to computer doesn't even work anymore idk what to think
I use Apple software and hardware all day every day. There was a patch ~13 years ago where things were really rough but I haven't noticed many issues over the past few years.
Never wanted anything more than an iphone that runs android
Imagine if all messaging apps could talk to one another, that'd be the day
A couple of months ago I had an iPhone in my hands for half an hour, for the first time. I was helping to debug some WiFi and also a minor printer issues, and all there was was this iPhone.
It was hard to use. It was all full of inconsistencies and some things that were simply illogical, which left me wondering for a while. Maybe I just was forced to deal with the wrong apps and it might have been a similar experience in Android, but Apple's marketing department really does a superb job at selling those devices.
I wouldn't call Apple's hardware as premium quality. Premium price yes, quality no - not since PowerPC times.
I was an owner of the original crackbook, have had a magic keyboard, magic mouse both fail shortly after warranty period, I can't count the number of power leads that have started fraying (thank goodness for USB C!).
Ass for iPhone screens - seem to be very breakable compared to other manufacturers.
No manufacturer can even come close to the translucent pinstripe g4, so easy to open, so much expandability. Hard to imagine it was made by apple, same goes for my 2012 mbp
I don't know why people, on this forum of all places, are raving so much about a piece of consumer electronics.
Comment typed on an industrial-grade system.
Because that's what the article claimed?
> Ass for iPhone screens - seem to be very breakable compared to other manufacturers.
That one always seemed weird to me, some people break their screen, iPhone or otherwise, regularly, but I've never even scratched one.
People think just because they hit the lottery (and broke their screen) it must mean the iPhone screen is just crap. I also have never broken an iPhone screen. Statistics are hard for people to understand.
iCucks in shambles, many such cases
I moved to Android this year. iOS accessibility just doesn't make the iPhone worth it anymore. Braille becomes more and more unstable in VoiceOver every year, and Android works way better with Windows and Linux than iOS does, and Mac accessibility, frankly, sucks.
All software development is ultimately dominated by complexity management asymptotics.
Every tuple of
Generates a function mapping from <complexity of problem> to <complexity of solution>The asymptotic behavior of this function determines the most complex problems you can solve before the complexity of your solution (the software) blows up and becomes unmanageable.
Apple's function currently has subpar asymptotics on the software side, so they've hit the bounds of complexity that they can properly handle.
There are a lot of things you can do to improve your asymptotics: engineering org structure improvements, switch to programming languages with better complexity function asymptotics, etc. etc., but any of these changes require an organization with the executive function and insight to actually make the jump, which is by no means a given.
Anyone remember OS 8 or 9? Not great.
A couple of months ago I bought new Magic Mouse with USB-C charging port, at first I was excited, finally Apple released new revision with USB-C port. Next thing I know scroll doesn’t work at all. And the mouse doesn’t stand stably on my desk. After hours of talking to Apple representatives at the phone call, they decided they will ship a replacement part.
I was so happy to finally have replacement delivered. But wait, exactly same scrolling issue doesn’t stop following me. After a little bit research on the internet, I realized it’s known issue to Apple already, which Apple still refuses to fix. Long story short - one needs to update macOS to 15.1 to fix that.
Does he mean that the software worked for three months after the hardware swap?
The Apple experience seems very luck based. Sometimes it goes great but if you hit the perfect storm of issues you're just totally out of luck
I also do agree that their modern software is shockingly bad, and it is strange because, as others note, what they offer to third parties is generally quite good so third party applications are often quite amazing. It seems like Apple are unable to develop for themselves
>"Apple tax" It's not what you think. Apple siphons all data they can and sells it, that's the real tax.
I fail to see the quality crisis if you’re just sticking with iPhone and Mac.
I’ve yet to find a better phone+computer setup if what you’re looking for are good quality native apps, integration between pc and handset, and a usable Unix environment for programming and other work.
I can't help but think Apple should have focused more on hiring the top engineers/designers than on the diversity of their workforce.
Nothing infuriates me more than the fact that when you get a missed call, tapping on the call notification doesn't call them back, instead it takes you to their contact!!!
What's worse is that this is a regression, so they actively made life a little more difficult for everyone in the new release.
Personally, I prefer that. I don't want to talk to people, usually. I want to go to the contact, see what communication forms we have in common, and send them a message.
I bet that they A/B tested this on users and this is not just a random change.
Perhaps this should be an option but I far prefer that tapping on a notification not do something that potentially notifies the sender that I saw the notification, certainly not calling them. I want to initiate that action knowingly and intentionally.
Lack of focus.
I want UNIX not emojis.
Okay, sure, but what about “memojis”.
Welcome to the brave new world of SwiftUI!
I worked at Apple. I was literally driven out of town due to my constructive criticism of how terrible our software and processes were. There was zero focus on quality and maintainability. ( I worked at Google and Netflix).
Wait, wasn't AI supposed to beefmaxx all of their developers 5x??
Antidotal rage bait with zero supporting facts. Jump on the bandwagon!
could this complaint be generalized to the software quality of anything that's been built upon for many years? as the churn in the workforce happens you lose nuance and expertise and systems become more and more complex to maintain and understand. management demands new features be slapped atop legacy systems. they want software to ship faster (look at how AAA game developers use nvidia AI features as a crutch to ship unoptimized games).
i often think back to ryan dahls infamous nodejs rant:
"There will come a point where the accumulated complexity of our existing systems is greater than the complexity of creating a new one. When that happens all of this shit will be trashed."
A company like apple can look at all their code, pull out the LCD, and build that directly into their hardware, or at least allow user programmable microcode, no need to keep doing these general branch prediction strategies that are complex and a security nightmare.
Who the hell I'm I kidding, they can't even make sure that the apple logo isn't cut off the top of the screen.
Alot of people in this thread are claiming that it's a race to the bottom to deliver features the fastest, aside from hardware, and the admittible many features needed to create a seemless ad, what software new gamechanging software features have Apple (or any company) made in the last 5 years? AI? The Camera App? Continuity? Messaging? LOL sorry but none of that is interesting in the slightest.
The big sign of Apple’s deterioration has been iOS 18. It is a disastrous launch with a terrible photos app, worse autocorrect, bugs, … on their flagship product. Hard to trust where they go from here. At some point it’ll affect security.
You're only now realizing this? Software quality at Apple has been in a freefall since Cook's appointment. If you sincerely think iOS 18 is the turning point, then I don't even understand what you use your iPhone for.
I never used any Apple products before Cook's appointment. Why did it go down?
I was just thinking the other day how there is a ton of friction now after they moved on from skewmorphic. Say what you will but I always knew exactly where my specific home directory folders were because they looked so distinct in the finder sidebar. Now I have to actually read the damn folder names because everything looks the same.
Huh let me guess: it is Apple Intelligence causing it
Now while it is true that some aspect of the Apple experience suck, my experience is that Windows and Linux are also sucking more (Linux less than MS, but still, not helpful)
I definitely would want more transparency for Apple but this is one of the things they "no can do", they just fix it one day (usually) and off you go.
OP here, Apple Intelligence is not yet available in Italy. I don’t even want to imagine how my iPad will overheat with Apple “Intelligence”.
Ah I guess I misread, it is only available on Macs so far in the EU https://support.apple.com/en-bw/121115
Still, I think maybe it could be some related service running on the background
Mail on iOS doesn’t even have push any more, the new Photos app is garbage, Music randomly spews “content not available” errors and works remarkably poorly with mobile data for a mobile app, watchOS is so chock-full of bugs and glitches that just go unfixed major version after major version etc.
It’s pretty bad. Somehow most other software is even worse. Genuinely impressive at this point.
I would trade push in iOS Mail for the standard rules (https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mail/mlhlp1017/mac) available in the desktop client since the past 20 years. Can't believe it is still not implemented.
Agreed; Apple's software quality is rapidly approaching unacceptability.
I'm in a regular video call friend group, every day we call and chat for a bit. A few days ago we "officially" decided to just call in Discord instead of Facetime. Discord's mobile app has its own set of issues, for sure, but we would regularly hit an issue with Facetime where especially as people join and leave the call, other peoples' microphones would become shadow muted; it would look like its sending audio from their end, but no one else could hear them. For non-video participants, this could mean minutes of not being heard before realizing the issue, leaving the call, and re-joining, which fixes things.
Also Facetime related: If you use your iPhone as a continuity camera for your Mac, if you get a Facetime call while your iPhone and Mac are close to each other, you cannot answer the call on your iPhone. If you think about the implications of that, it sounds crazy; like "there's no way that got through testing", but its true. Your iPhone displays an ungrokable error message that took me, a tech guy, several Googles to understand what was going on. The only option in this error message is "Disconnect". You click that, and you're taken back to the home screen. If the other person has not disconnected from the Facetime call, you can manually launch the Facetime app and join the call from there. But if they've left it, you just missed the call, and it does this Every Single Time. I had to turn off Continuity Camera. Its crazy!
That's just the latest ones; the list of issues is really quite endless, and it only gets longer the more of Apple's services you decide to inflict upon yourself.
> Agreed; Apple's software quality is rapidly approaching unacceptability.
But since sales go brrrrr and so does the stock, why should they care?
I would disagree with the conclusion. It sounds like a faulty line of hardware on the M2 Air then.
My partner is the IT manager at a school where they have over 1000 iPads (10th gen) deployed with iOS 18 and there are no reported issues like this. We ourselves have iPad Pro M2's without these issues which we both use all day every day. Our kids have 3x 10th gen iPads too. No issues.
YMMV but they just work for us and the software, which not perfect, is probably the least shit out there.
I mean the trash heap in my office is mostly Surface machines as a comparison...
It is a software issue, I also have the same issue on my M2 pro.
The issue is, that each new line you draw, gets added to a group. This will start causing lagging at some point of time.
If I highlight my whole screen in Notes or Freeform and use the `separate` tool to remove all things from the group. The lagging immediately stops. You can read more about this here [1].
Apple has many issues with “scalability” like this. Another one for instance is the imessage and its replies. If you use them too much (50 replies to message or more) it start not rendering some of the messages.
This suggests a type of culture, where things are important to look nice in demos, but are not actually usable daily.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/ipad/comments/zqh5rt/ipad_glitching...
But are they using mentioned pencils?
iPad 10th Gen doesn't even support the Apple Pencil Pro. Are they using any Apple Pencils at all?
Correct. Which is the point. The user complains that the problem is a software crisis when the software is fine on completely different hardware. That would suggest by elimination it's not a software problem, or is a software problem tied to particular hardware.
(incidentally they mostly use USB-C apple pencils and some clone ones when they lose them and the parents don't want to buy a genuine replacement one)
It is a software problem when a pen is used; you aren't using a pen so it doesn't impact you.
I don't understand why you thought it was constructive to point out the difference between a "software problem Vs. a software problem only when the pen is used." The article was very clear on that point already, it isn't adding to the conversation.
A good writeup of just a smaller subsection of my grievances with Apple under Cook's recent leadership: stellar hardware increasingly hobbled by bungled software.
Funny enough, I had the exact issue the OP had with my M1 iPad and Notes, writing down Kubernetes coursework and notes by hand to try and make it "stick" better mentally (an entirely different post, someday) only for Notes to crash, losing most of my work since the last time I opened the app. It got so bad that I was regularly synchronizing and duplicating notes to preserve my work ahead of the next crash, and splitting notes up into quarter-chapters to reduce the likelihood of app crashes and iPad overheating.
Apple has been so feature-focused to keep up with shareholder demands and industry fads, that they've neglected the core user experience. iTunes used to be the best way to organize and consume music, and nobody has really taken up that mantle since Apple abandoned it in favor of their streaming service. Same with local media and shared libraries, now tucked away into obscure apps in favor of more streaming platform priority.
That feature-focus extends to general OS stability as well. Safari gulping down battery life on my iPhone because it's not properly suspending tabs anymore. iPad suddenly no longer charging without any error message or warning until a reboot is triggered or the battery completely dies. Siri responding as far away as physically possible from the actual speaker, including on devices I don't even own, bypassing multiple other devices that stand between the speaker and the responding device. The AppleTV needs weekly reboots because apps don't load video streams properly, giving a black screen with audio or an HDCP error message despite every other device in the chain showing it's the AppleTV not engaging HDCP. HomePods suddenly ceasing music playback without any command to do so, often mid-song.
It's just getting worse and worse, to the point (pre-RIF) I was seriously looking into an honest-to-god HiFi to replace stereo homepods in my bedroom. I've already ditched the Music app in favor of Plex's Music App (don't even get me started on how awful it is, but it's still better than Apple Music), I've all but given up engaging in music discovery via CarPlay, and I've long since moved local media onto a Plex Server in lieu of a single, simple, efficient iTunes library. That's just the media side of things, too.
Don't get me wrong, Apple's kit is still lightyears better than an equivalent Windows 11/Android setup, especially for my family members who don't want to wrangle with confusing UX and have largely moved into a streaming-only lifestyle - though even they're increasingly frustrated with Apple's updates breaking things or forcing them to rework their processes.
But that only works for so long before users get so sick and tired of it, that they'll take a chance on an upstart competitor.
Author here, crashing is another issue I have with notes, but it's more sporadic.
> Apple's kit is still lightyears better than an equivalent Windows 11/Android setup
That's sadly true, but I think as users/power users we shouldn't settle for the "best of the worst", when it's clear that the direction of Apple software quality took a dramatic shift.
This makes me want to work for their hardware teams (as a software engineer), not their software teams.
But hey Apple would never hire me anyway...
iPad OS is just terrible.
My personal pet peeve is how Apple used to be the Best of the Best in photography, including Dolby Vision HDR support for both video and still images, but now their software has failed to catch up to Chrome and fails at the most trivial operations.
As a random example: It is impossible to use any non-Mac device to produce a HDR image that an Apple device can handle correctly:
JPEG XL is "supported". Narrator: No it isn't. The point of this file format is proper HDR support, but Apple loads it as an 8-bit SDR image no matter what.
AVIF is "supported" and even loads as HDR... on one device only. You can't forward such an image via any iOS or MacOS app. It becomes a non-picture file attachment.
My Nikon Z8 can generate glorious HDR HEIF files -- the native Apple image format -- which doesn't work either. Why? Because Apple software can't handle "HEIF", they can only handle the incredibly specific tiny subset of it that very specifically the iOS Camera app produces. Nothing else works properly, or even at all.
You can spend thousands on a camera, thousands on an iPhone or iPad, thousands on a Macbook and... they can't handle pictures. PICTURES!
Meanwhile a $500 TV from ALDI will happily show me HDR images in a dozen formats because they use Chrome OS or Google TV.
but the hardware premium is kinda real... i have been using my macbook air 11 daily for 10 years (I am writing this comment on it), and it works flawlessly. somehow i don't think other brands are so well made, or they weren't so well made 10 years ago.
Yes but... but... Did you update it to the latest version of Mac OS (Sequoia) with all the security patches via official Apple channels ?
No you did not.
Not quite sure what you're trying to say, but the MacBook Air 11" 2015 model supports macOS Monterey[1] which got a security update 6 months ago[2].
[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/103260
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Monterey
It's well-known that old versions of macOS get security updates quite late, if ever [1].
[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/11/psa-apple-isnt-actua...
I don't think you can update any 10-year-old windows computer to the latest version of windows (11) with all security patches via official microsoft channels.
(Also, lol @ "via official Apple channels", you're aware Open Core Legacy Patcher is a thing and have hedged against people mentioning it.)
What are you comparing to?
Not 10 years old, but I have a 2017 laptop that updated to Windows 11 just fine. It's somewhat slow though and I enjoy the dual-booted Linux on it more.
You can easily patch a config file in Windows and install it on old hardware and get regular updates as usual.
OCLP is more complicated and limited as it's not a "some manifest config limitation", but actual support parts of OS being removed, so they have a big lag and a bunch of issues, and limit your updates
So yeah, no contest comparision between Mac and Win
I mean, there's an official way of installing without TPM, I'm pretty sure I can get Windows 11 on some pretty old hardware
https://time.com/3264528/best-laptop-under-500/ This is a 2014 article, for a Budget/Mid Laptop, with a compatible processor and double the minimum RAM
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/windows11/he... Post marked as solution talks about installing W11 on a 10 Y/O Thinkpad
I consider the WinBootMate thing suggested in your second link to be similar to OCLP. Third party solutions to enable installing on hardware the vendor doesn't want you installing it on.
Did you even notice that the link marked as solution is a third party software vendor?????? They charge money for that solution.
I actually didn't, but I still think the point stands
https://www.techpowerup.com/329691/microsoft-loosens-windows...
Microsoft does let's you bypass it (Regardless of them putting up a disclaimer) so the example stands, you can do it hardware and software wise without losing updates or security*
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-on-de...
* I think you only really lose some performance on cryptographic operations and tranparent encryption
The Microsoft support page you linked says that it's unsupported.
I don't know what point you're trying to make here, but it's falling flat.
Microsoft removed the mandatory requirement, so now instead of refusing to install it just gives a disclaimer that it's "unsupported" as per the linked page
So you can install Vanilla Windows 11, no third party, on decade old hardware without losing anything other than performance (And an annoying disclaimer)
Microsoft removed that. TPM is a hard requirement unless you unwisely remove the requirement via 3rd party tool.
Wow, how dare you omit that Windows 11 24H2 IoT LTSC exists.
/s
Apple is just milking the market at this point. They are the Phone Company from the sketch ( https://vimeo.com/355556831 ). Literally.
macOS is another example. The System Settings menu is a hot garbage now, its search is literally unusable. For example, try to look for "shortcuts".
Then there are constant popup windows asking me to approve file access or some other BS. I can't do that permanently anymore, it's just for up to 30 days.
Another annoyance: it's impossible to speed up animations after the switch from Intel to ARM. This makes spaces literally unusable for me. I gave up and got a second monitor as a result.
The sad thing about this is that in the Android ecosystem, you are likely to get just as shitty software on a much, much shittier hardware. You cannot have nice things. Oh, and just buy a new one while we're at it, lmao.
About a year ago I changed from android to ios, thinking id have better integration with my laptop.
A year on and my main take away is that ios is slow, buggy and has frustrating ux. The over use of modals and no consistent pattern for going back are frustrating. The UI lagging and glitching out and application crashes are so much worse and more frequent than I had on an old pixel.
I dont think ill stick with ios for my next phone but i dont plan on replacing it for 3 years so it's going to be a frustrating 4 years with a supposedly premium device that is objectively an inferior product.