This was almost my experience when my dishwasher died last year. When looking for reviews and advice, everyone recommended Bosch. However, when I saw it had WiFi, I baulked. After a lot of humming and hawwing, I decided against the Bosch 500 solely because I didn't want a dishwasher with WiFi. The saleslady thought I was crazy.
Instead, I got an equivalently priced KitchenAid KDFM404KPS1 and am quite happy with it, with only minor quibbles. One of the wheels on the bottom rack is attached to a movable row of prongs, and if you push the row too hard in the wrong direction, you can knock the wheel off. You can just pop the wheel back on, but it's an occasional mild annoyance. Aside from that, I have no complaints.
For whatever it’s worth, I have a previous-generation Bosch 500 (no wifi.) I generally like it a lot, but it has similar minor annoyances (the top tray will come off its guide rail on one side, but that won’t be obvious until the tray doesn’t slide all the way back in.)
In other words, I don’t think Bosch is any better in the “minor quibble” department.
It doesn't have to be your Echo, a Sidewalk client can get low-bandwidth internet access through any Echo that it can reach over LoRa, which goes pretty far.
When was the last time you saw any open networks in residential homes? All wifi access points use WPA2 and passwords out of the box in the last 10+ years.
There might be one from some random hotel lobby nearby or neighbor with a Windows Vista PC, but that's the exception nowadays, not the rule.
I know it’s not common but I’ve kept a client-isolated open wifi hotspot on my property for a long time. You never know when someone might be in the neighborhood and need a connection!
So far, a single client has connected in 4 years and I can’t remember if that was me or not.
I used to do that but now I have put a password on my guest wifi with a QR code for easy typing (which I still have not printed; I should do that one of these days).
They won't even have to be open. ISPs like Comcast have been offering the ability to connect to Comcast hotspots that are just running on consumer's routers.
How long before they offer that as a service to 3rd parties like Bosch or LG?
There was an anecdotal story on Reddit about a Samsung TV that did this.
The poster disabled WiFi on the TV and didn't add it to their own network. The TV kept complaining and re-enabling the wireless interface and eventually latched on to a neighbour's unsecured guest hotspot...
There is money in them doing this nasty nonsense. The cost of something like a cellular connection will only keep dropping. Therefore, it is just a matter of time before such devices can connect to the internet without any way for the user to prevent them. Nobody is going to Faraday cage their house.
That’s where you’re wrong. I’m sure some people will indeed faraday cage their house (or their devices). I know that I’ll have wallpaper to match my hat.
Only regulation can fix this, because for the company it's nothing but upside. They can double-dip by selling data, gather data on their users, etc. There is no downside. There are nowhere near enough knowledgeable people who will balk at this stuff, and even if there are it won't matter if/when everyone does it.
All economic incentives encourage maximum invasion of user privacy. That's almost universally true in my experience.
Regulation is maybe the most likely route, but the other is for customers to continue to vote with their wallet. if more and more people refuse to buy these listening devices, then they will stop doing it.
I would deeply love an FTC complaint for false advertising if the box claims it has air frying but attempting to use it in your cabin in the woods doesn't
I am surprised that nobody has tried to market some kind of "smart medication dispenser" that will leave people without their meds when the net is out.
Discussion (1006 points, 13 days ago, 661 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43463200
This was almost my experience when my dishwasher died last year. When looking for reviews and advice, everyone recommended Bosch. However, when I saw it had WiFi, I baulked. After a lot of humming and hawwing, I decided against the Bosch 500 solely because I didn't want a dishwasher with WiFi. The saleslady thought I was crazy.
Instead, I got an equivalently priced KitchenAid KDFM404KPS1 and am quite happy with it, with only minor quibbles. One of the wheels on the bottom rack is attached to a movable row of prongs, and if you push the row too hard in the wrong direction, you can knock the wheel off. You can just pop the wheel back on, but it's an occasional mild annoyance. Aside from that, I have no complaints.
For whatever it’s worth, I have a previous-generation Bosch 500 (no wifi.) I generally like it a lot, but it has similar minor annoyances (the top tray will come off its guide rail on one side, but that won’t be obvious until the tray doesn’t slide all the way back in.)
In other words, I don’t think Bosch is any better in the “minor quibble” department.
What scares me is if these appliances will connect to any open network in order to phone home without the user's consent.
Eventually the cost of a 5G module and data plan will be low enough that these appliances won't need any help to phone home.
You don't even need 5G when things like Amazon Sidewalk exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Sidewalk
Echo devices serve as internet-to-sidewalk bridges by default so it's pretty extensive, Amazon claims >90% of the US population is covered.
If you have an echo, you’re probably not too worried about this.
It doesn't have to be your Echo, a Sidewalk client can get low-bandwidth internet access through any Echo that it can reach over LoRa, which goes pretty far.
Then I will finally be able to use the full power of aluminum foil rolls from Costco.
And you won’t be able to do anything.
That’s why regulating some base standards and labelling is essential.
When was the last time you saw any open networks in residential homes? All wifi access points use WPA2 and passwords out of the box in the last 10+ years.
There might be one from some random hotel lobby nearby or neighbor with a Windows Vista PC, but that's the exception nowadays, not the rule.
I know it’s not common but I’ve kept a client-isolated open wifi hotspot on my property for a long time. You never know when someone might be in the neighborhood and need a connection!
So far, a single client has connected in 4 years and I can’t remember if that was me or not.
I used to do that but now I have put a password on my guest wifi with a QR code for easy typing (which I still have not printed; I should do that one of these days).
They won't even have to be open. ISPs like Comcast have been offering the ability to connect to Comcast hotspots that are just running on consumer's routers.
How long before they offer that as a service to 3rd parties like Bosch or LG?
Just now, because Vodafone is running Wi-Fi hotspots on their customers' routers. (It's opt-out.)
An appliance wouldn't be able to use that, of course.
Those are not open but require in-browser authentication for customers.
There was an anecdotal story on Reddit about a Samsung TV that did this.
The poster disabled WiFi on the TV and didn't add it to their own network. The TV kept complaining and re-enabling the wireless interface and eventually latched on to a neighbour's unsecured guest hotspot...
Just put your dishwasher in airplane mode...
There is money in them doing this nasty nonsense. The cost of something like a cellular connection will only keep dropping. Therefore, it is just a matter of time before such devices can connect to the internet without any way for the user to prevent them. Nobody is going to Faraday cage their house.
That’s where you’re wrong. I’m sure some people will indeed faraday cage their house (or their devices). I know that I’ll have wallpaper to match my hat.
Only regulation can fix this, because for the company it's nothing but upside. They can double-dip by selling data, gather data on their users, etc. There is no downside. There are nowhere near enough knowledgeable people who will balk at this stuff, and even if there are it won't matter if/when everyone does it.
All economic incentives encourage maximum invasion of user privacy. That's almost universally true in my experience.
Regulation is maybe the most likely route, but the other is for customers to continue to vote with their wallet. if more and more people refuse to buy these listening devices, then they will stop doing it.
Can you point to any examples of this happening in the last decade or so?
For now, I agree with the GP that:
> There are nowhere near enough knowledgeable people who will balk at this stuff.
Your appliances are your next smart TV.
You know, my GE oven won't do the air frying mode without Wi-Fi.
I would deeply love an FTC complaint for false advertising if the box claims it has air frying but attempting to use it in your cabin in the woods doesn't
ed: err, I guess under a different FTC, I guess
“I can’t wash the dishes because the Internet is out”
I am surprised that nobody has tried to market some kind of "smart medication dispenser" that will leave people without their meds when the net is out.