I have some hope that rotating detonation engines will make aerospikes viable. But I don’t even see them mentioned in this paper.
The idea with the constantly moving flame front is that it spreads the heat out. The limitation with aerospikes is getting enough coolant through the spike. Bells are simpler to cool, which as I understand more than makes up for them needing more cooling.
I think they were mentioned briefly. Aerospikes can work with rdes potentially if the certain versions catch on, but at the end of the day the heat fluxes are even worse for the detonation based engines. The main reason aerospikes don’t make sense is that you adding more area that gets the highest amount of heat flux and your plumbing and cooling jackets becomes a nightmare.
RDEs are far less tested than aerospikes. (In part because you can build a dipshit aerospike in your garage. I don’t know anyone who has made an RDE at home.)
Doesn't seem like a front rotating around the spike would gain that much "spreading out" over a continuous front. At the end of the day, its a spike that narrows to a very small point.
The abstract brings up SSTOs, but has there been anything in recent invention that will make them anything other than the white whale people have been chasing since forever?
Source: worked at a startup that took over the patents for the X-33 next gen shuttle and VentureStar SSTO (aerospike design!)
The Columbia disaster really set back SSTO appetite. Probably the whole reason we got the patents, truly.
SSTOs are, like everything else going to orbit, delimited by weight.
If you are going to make the fuel tanks internal to the vehicle and not something that falls off and sheds their weight mid-flight, you have to get vehicle weight to the absolute minimum. Losing weight has second order effects because it means you now have to carry less fuel so you now have a smaller fuel tank which means the tank weighs less which means you get to carry less fuel… etc.
The key, IMO, is material science advancements, specifically around plastics and composites. Very efficient engine design is matters too, but if you can just bring less mass up with you you can start to approach an achievable fuel weight.
It’s a hard job, you need plastics that can handle orbital temperature cycling (+300 to -300 F every 30 mins), atomic oxygen (nasty corrosion), UV with no atmospheric protection, FST for crew exposure…
Exotic metal alloys can get you around some of these problems, but they can be difficult and expensive to work with. Same issue with high-performance polymers. No free lunches here.
With 3D printing of metals and high-performance composites, you can probably remove additional weight so there’s some light in that tunnel.
But all in all it’s very hard to get out of the gravity well with your fuel in tow and survive the extremes of space. My belief is the first vehicle to pull it off will look like a Swiss cheese of voids and lattices from printing / honeycombs and be made almost entirely out of plastic and carbon fiber.
The 1990s were a lost decade for reusable space flight because instead of chasing incremental improvements to the Space Shuttle (an orbiter with reusable tiles that could be turned around in days, not months) or something like the Falcoln 9 or the fly-back version of Saturn V that O'Neill's students drew in 1979, it was all about SSTO.
SSTO is just marginally possible, if it is possible you need exotic materials and engines and you're never going to get a good payload fraction and adding wings, horizontal takeoff, horizontal landing and such just makes it worse. The one good thing about it is that you get closer to "aircraft-like operations" because in principle you can inspect it, refill it, and relaunch it -- whereas something like the STS or Falcoln 9 or Starship will require stacking up multiple parts for each launch.
My guess is aerospikes are making a comeback though because of interest in hypersonic weapons system. I could also see them being useful for the second stage of something like Starship which mostly operates at high altitudes but has to land at low altitudes. There are a lot of other technical problems, like the thermal management system, which really have to be solved before worrying about that optimization.
Currently the Starship upper stage simply has two different sets of bell nozzles: Three engines with nozzles for atmospheric pressure, and three for vacuum. I wonder how inefficient this really is compared to having just aerospike nozzles.
That's the same as the genesis of the question I asked above. SSTOs are a concept, but given their complete lack of market share, I assume as a non-aerospace engineer that there are valid reasons smart people have not been able to design a competitive one yet.
Similarly, I assume there are valid reasons SpaceX has chosen not to use aerospike Raptors, especially given their well-earned reputation for innovating things everyone else swore couldn't be done. If even they haven't been able to make it work, that's a strong data point as to the state of the art.
I'd argue that the brilliance of SpaceX is the opposite. They stick to technology and markets that are proven and use technically conservative approaches. Falcon 9 is about relentless improvement in small ways, not bold new ideas -- unless you count not getting caught up in the politics and psychology of bold new ideas as a bold new idea.
Sure, they talk about Mars, and in-space refueling seems radical, but they've yet to succeed at doing anything radical... yet.
Rumor has it they were struggling with the payload fraction w/ the first generation of Starship and they switched to a second generation that struggles with blowing up. A big advantage of the two-stage architecture is that you can develop the two stages independently. Presumably they will eventually get Starship to orbit and bring it home, they will have plenty of time to improve it get the payload fraction up just as they did with F9.
This. In my very uninformed opinion the only way we'll get useful SSTO is if we can get a meaningful amount of oxygen from the atmosphere rather than carrying it up in heavy tanks. The failure of Reaction Engines with their SABRE engine is disappointing on this front.
It sounds good at the one sentence level. When you need to write more about the topic, the problem is that oxygen makes up only about 20% of the air. So you have need to accelerate all of this N2 that gives you nothing in energy and the result is a much lower Isp (specific impulse is the thrust per massflow, and all of that N2 is not adding anything to your thrust and increasing your massflow). And you need to be able to pull in enough air to get enough oxygen to drive your engine, so you need very large structures to move all of this unnecessary nitrogen around.
It is possible that only needing one tank rather than two can make up for the dramatic loss of Isp we see from an air-breathing engine and the air-handling structure, but no one has yet managed to demonstrate that, and the general consensus runs against it. I recall reading that HOTOL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_HOTOL) calculations were actually driven by an extremely light structure estimate rather than the airbreathing engine, to the point where if you plugged a rocket engine in they would actually get more payload to space as a SSTO, because those aggressively light structure estimates were doing all of the work.
Jet engines have on the order of 10x the specific impulse of a chemical rocket.
Atmospheric density reduces exponentially with altitude, which implies that you would need to go exponentially faster to maintain mass flow into your engines and lift over your wings. The truth is that breathing air only gets you a third of the way to space, at best, so you have to have a rocket, and now you're battling that complexity. If your space plane doesn't breathe air, it probably is just better to punch your way out the way conventional rockets do.
Of course, the rocket equation is logarithmic, so reducing the amount of mass you loft gives you an exponential gain. This is true for all propulsion systems to an extent (different constants) but getting into space is the hardest propulsion problem we face. A space plane may or may not be better in this regard (it's been a while since I've looked into that kind of thing, so no opinion either way) but imo the inherent complexity is enough on its own to kill the idea.
SpaceX is very close to demonstrating an architecture that ameliorates almost all of the drawbacks of two stage to orbit architectures. The tyranny of the rocket equation ensures that while a SSTO carrying all of it's oxygen is possible, it's never going to be able to carry enough mass to be useful.
Therefore nobody is ever going to invest the tens of billions required to develop a rocket based SSTO.
If somebody develops an engine that makes air breathing most of the way to orbit feasible, this has a chance of competing a Starship style architecture.
For the reasons you espoused, this is highly unlikely. However "highly unlikely" is more likely than "never".
Aren't rockets more powerful (as in energy/time) than rocket engines in that they are getting compressed/liquified oxygen out of a tank as opposed to taking the comparably tiny amount that passes into the intake of an engine?
doesn't scale well. The amount of air entering is proportional to square - cross-section - while the mass of rocket is cubic. While scramjet/turbojet/air-augmentation, say as a separate detachable stage, can be pretty efficient for smaller rocket, anything making significant improvement for say Starship would looks like a fat monster cross-section-wise with tremendous hardware cost and weight loosing outright to the straight option of adding additional tanks and rocket engines.
Wrt. aerospike engine - sounds nice, yet hardware wise it is heavier than the classic engine, and just look at that large number of pieces - just all those small mini-engines - it is made of and compare to Raptor 3. And for the optimal expansion - i'm waiting somebody will add a dynamically adjusting telescopic kind of end section to the classic bell nozzle.
A napkin to illustrate. Lets say you add a Raptor and 80 tons of fuel plus oxygen for it. That will give you 100 seconds of excess impulse of at least 160 tons (240 ton of thrust minus 80 tons) at the beginning to 240 tons at the end, so roughly 100 seconds of 200 tons. To get 200 tons thrust you'd need 20 fighter turbojet engines capable of at least Mach 3 - that is cost, complexity and weight dwarfing that one Raptor engine.
For scramjet, assuming we got a decent one, napkin is about the same. The best, my favorite, is air-augmented - scram-compress the air and channel it on the outside of the hot bell nozzles of the already working rocket engines - unfortunately the scaling mentioned above comes into play for meaningfully sized rockets though it has worked great for small ones.
Why make an SSTO when you can make a TSTO? First stage recovery is a solved problem and will always greatly relax the engineering problems over making a SSTO.
Yes, if you look close, the paper is replete with error-filled generative reproductions of existing illustrations in the citations; including Fig. 6 (MC Escher struts), Fig. 7 (sprouting greeble tubes), and Fig. 8 (actuators replaced by tubes connected to mystery manifolds).
Even Fig. 2 shows the spike geometry magically changing, which is not addressed in the text and seems like an error carried over from the original illustration in the cited source.
Casts serious doubt on the credibility of the rest of the work.
The article has a link (citation 17) to a site selling toy models of that vehicle as an image source, I can find one (fourth image in the gallery) there where it sorta looks like the wing is missing because the wing is black against a black background but it's not the same image shown in the paper:
The name "Venturestar" is properly rendered in that image but "NASA" and "Lockheed Martin" are thoroughly mangled the way I'd expect text to be mangled in an AI image. The image from the toy site could have been used as as reference image to create the image in the paper one way or another.
I have some hope that rotating detonation engines will make aerospikes viable. But I don’t even see them mentioned in this paper.
The idea with the constantly moving flame front is that it spreads the heat out. The limitation with aerospikes is getting enough coolant through the spike. Bells are simpler to cool, which as I understand more than makes up for them needing more cooling.
I think they were mentioned briefly. Aerospikes can work with rdes potentially if the certain versions catch on, but at the end of the day the heat fluxes are even worse for the detonation based engines. The main reason aerospikes don’t make sense is that you adding more area that gets the highest amount of heat flux and your plumbing and cooling jackets becomes a nightmare.
RDEs are far less tested than aerospikes. (In part because you can build a dipshit aerospike in your garage. I don’t know anyone who has made an RDE at home.)
Doesn't seem like a front rotating around the spike would gain that much "spreading out" over a continuous front. At the end of the day, its a spike that narrows to a very small point.
video on the rectangular one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcW9kUUTfxY
I'm not sure if this one counts but recent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UShD03eG9IU
The abstract brings up SSTOs, but has there been anything in recent invention that will make them anything other than the white whale people have been chasing since forever?
Source: worked at a startup that took over the patents for the X-33 next gen shuttle and VentureStar SSTO (aerospike design!)
The Columbia disaster really set back SSTO appetite. Probably the whole reason we got the patents, truly.
SSTOs are, like everything else going to orbit, delimited by weight.
If you are going to make the fuel tanks internal to the vehicle and not something that falls off and sheds their weight mid-flight, you have to get vehicle weight to the absolute minimum. Losing weight has second order effects because it means you now have to carry less fuel so you now have a smaller fuel tank which means the tank weighs less which means you get to carry less fuel… etc.
The key, IMO, is material science advancements, specifically around plastics and composites. Very efficient engine design is matters too, but if you can just bring less mass up with you you can start to approach an achievable fuel weight.
It’s a hard job, you need plastics that can handle orbital temperature cycling (+300 to -300 F every 30 mins), atomic oxygen (nasty corrosion), UV with no atmospheric protection, FST for crew exposure…
Exotic metal alloys can get you around some of these problems, but they can be difficult and expensive to work with. Same issue with high-performance polymers. No free lunches here.
With 3D printing of metals and high-performance composites, you can probably remove additional weight so there’s some light in that tunnel.
But all in all it’s very hard to get out of the gravity well with your fuel in tow and survive the extremes of space. My belief is the first vehicle to pull it off will look like a Swiss cheese of voids and lattices from printing / honeycombs and be made almost entirely out of plastic and carbon fiber.
The 1990s were a lost decade for reusable space flight because instead of chasing incremental improvements to the Space Shuttle (an orbiter with reusable tiles that could be turned around in days, not months) or something like the Falcoln 9 or the fly-back version of Saturn V that O'Neill's students drew in 1979, it was all about SSTO.
SSTO is just marginally possible, if it is possible you need exotic materials and engines and you're never going to get a good payload fraction and adding wings, horizontal takeoff, horizontal landing and such just makes it worse. The one good thing about it is that you get closer to "aircraft-like operations" because in principle you can inspect it, refill it, and relaunch it -- whereas something like the STS or Falcoln 9 or Starship will require stacking up multiple parts for each launch.
My guess is aerospikes are making a comeback though because of interest in hypersonic weapons system. I could also see them being useful for the second stage of something like Starship which mostly operates at high altitudes but has to land at low altitudes. There are a lot of other technical problems, like the thermal management system, which really have to be solved before worrying about that optimization.
Currently the Starship upper stage simply has two different sets of bell nozzles: Three engines with nozzles for atmospheric pressure, and three for vacuum. I wonder how inefficient this really is compared to having just aerospike nozzles.
That's the same as the genesis of the question I asked above. SSTOs are a concept, but given their complete lack of market share, I assume as a non-aerospace engineer that there are valid reasons smart people have not been able to design a competitive one yet.
Similarly, I assume there are valid reasons SpaceX has chosen not to use aerospike Raptors, especially given their well-earned reputation for innovating things everyone else swore couldn't be done. If even they haven't been able to make it work, that's a strong data point as to the state of the art.
I'd argue that the brilliance of SpaceX is the opposite. They stick to technology and markets that are proven and use technically conservative approaches. Falcon 9 is about relentless improvement in small ways, not bold new ideas -- unless you count not getting caught up in the politics and psychology of bold new ideas as a bold new idea.
Sure, they talk about Mars, and in-space refueling seems radical, but they've yet to succeed at doing anything radical... yet.
Rumor has it they were struggling with the payload fraction w/ the first generation of Starship and they switched to a second generation that struggles with blowing up. A big advantage of the two-stage architecture is that you can develop the two stages independently. Presumably they will eventually get Starship to orbit and bring it home, they will have plenty of time to improve it get the payload fraction up just as they did with F9.
Landing and re-using their Falcon first stages was pretty radical though.
There has been some progress on scramjet propulsion.
This. In my very uninformed opinion the only way we'll get useful SSTO is if we can get a meaningful amount of oxygen from the atmosphere rather than carrying it up in heavy tanks. The failure of Reaction Engines with their SABRE engine is disappointing on this front.
It sounds good at the one sentence level. When you need to write more about the topic, the problem is that oxygen makes up only about 20% of the air. So you have need to accelerate all of this N2 that gives you nothing in energy and the result is a much lower Isp (specific impulse is the thrust per massflow, and all of that N2 is not adding anything to your thrust and increasing your massflow). And you need to be able to pull in enough air to get enough oxygen to drive your engine, so you need very large structures to move all of this unnecessary nitrogen around.
It is possible that only needing one tank rather than two can make up for the dramatic loss of Isp we see from an air-breathing engine and the air-handling structure, but no one has yet managed to demonstrate that, and the general consensus runs against it. I recall reading that HOTOL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_HOTOL) calculations were actually driven by an extremely light structure estimate rather than the airbreathing engine, to the point where if you plugged a rocket engine in they would actually get more payload to space as a SSTO, because those aggressively light structure estimates were doing all of the work.
Jet engines have on the order of 10x the specific impulse of a chemical rocket.
Atmospheric density reduces exponentially with altitude, which implies that you would need to go exponentially faster to maintain mass flow into your engines and lift over your wings. The truth is that breathing air only gets you a third of the way to space, at best, so you have to have a rocket, and now you're battling that complexity. If your space plane doesn't breathe air, it probably is just better to punch your way out the way conventional rockets do.
Of course, the rocket equation is logarithmic, so reducing the amount of mass you loft gives you an exponential gain. This is true for all propulsion systems to an extent (different constants) but getting into space is the hardest propulsion problem we face. A space plane may or may not be better in this regard (it's been a while since I've looked into that kind of thing, so no opinion either way) but imo the inherent complexity is enough on its own to kill the idea.
SpaceX is very close to demonstrating an architecture that ameliorates almost all of the drawbacks of two stage to orbit architectures. The tyranny of the rocket equation ensures that while a SSTO carrying all of it's oxygen is possible, it's never going to be able to carry enough mass to be useful.
Therefore nobody is ever going to invest the tens of billions required to develop a rocket based SSTO.
If somebody develops an engine that makes air breathing most of the way to orbit feasible, this has a chance of competing a Starship style architecture.
For the reasons you espoused, this is highly unlikely. However "highly unlikely" is more likely than "never".
Aren't rockets more powerful (as in energy/time) than rocket engines in that they are getting compressed/liquified oxygen out of a tank as opposed to taking the comparably tiny amount that passes into the intake of an engine?
doesn't scale well. The amount of air entering is proportional to square - cross-section - while the mass of rocket is cubic. While scramjet/turbojet/air-augmentation, say as a separate detachable stage, can be pretty efficient for smaller rocket, anything making significant improvement for say Starship would looks like a fat monster cross-section-wise with tremendous hardware cost and weight loosing outright to the straight option of adding additional tanks and rocket engines.
Wrt. aerospike engine - sounds nice, yet hardware wise it is heavier than the classic engine, and just look at that large number of pieces - just all those small mini-engines - it is made of and compare to Raptor 3. And for the optimal expansion - i'm waiting somebody will add a dynamically adjusting telescopic kind of end section to the classic bell nozzle.
A napkin to illustrate. Lets say you add a Raptor and 80 tons of fuel plus oxygen for it. That will give you 100 seconds of excess impulse of at least 160 tons (240 ton of thrust minus 80 tons) at the beginning to 240 tons at the end, so roughly 100 seconds of 200 tons. To get 200 tons thrust you'd need 20 fighter turbojet engines capable of at least Mach 3 - that is cost, complexity and weight dwarfing that one Raptor engine.
For scramjet, assuming we got a decent one, napkin is about the same. The best, my favorite, is air-augmented - scram-compress the air and channel it on the outside of the hot bell nozzles of the already working rocket engines - unfortunately the scaling mentioned above comes into play for meaningfully sized rockets though it has worked great for small ones.
There's been progress on scramjets for cruise missions. For acceleration missions, like launchers, scramjets make no sense at all.
Why make an SSTO when you can make a TSTO? First stage recovery is a solved problem and will always greatly relax the engineering problems over making a SSTO.
Is that an AI generated image of the Venture Star? It's missing portside wings..
Gotta be, the skunk logo is an approximation of the real one.
Yes, if you look close, the paper is replete with error-filled generative reproductions of existing illustrations in the citations; including Fig. 6 (MC Escher struts), Fig. 7 (sprouting greeble tubes), and Fig. 8 (actuators replaced by tubes connected to mystery manifolds).
Even Fig. 2 shows the spike geometry magically changing, which is not addressed in the text and seems like an error carried over from the original illustration in the cited source.
Casts serious doubt on the credibility of the rest of the work.
The article has a link (citation 17) to a site selling toy models of that vehicle as an image source, I can find one (fourth image in the gallery) there where it sorta looks like the wing is missing because the wing is black against a black background but it's not the same image shown in the paper:
https://fantastic-plastic.com/lockheed-martin-x-33-venturest...
The name "Venturestar" is properly rendered in that image but "NASA" and "Lockheed Martin" are thoroughly mangled the way I'd expect text to be mangled in an AI image. The image from the toy site could have been used as as reference image to create the image in the paper one way or another.
I thought this would be about the key-value store, Aerospike.
Pretty neat, my dad worked on that X-33 program at Lockheed.