I will get beat up for this one ... I should not even reply to politics but unfortunately it is legal for a US president to troll and he trolls all day long on Twitster. The media know he is trolling and should not take him seriously but they pretend he is serious to get people spun up to get clicks and people rage commenting on their Youtube channels. I honestly wish he would knock it off. It's unprofessional, childish and is conduct unbecoming of a senior leader. He needs to get back to work and stay off Twitster even if it is his media assistants operating his account which I am certain is the case because I have seen him comment whilst at the same time speaking publicly so it can not really be him even if it is stuff he would say.
[Edit] I should have clarified that the federal government can revoke the citizenship of anyone that expatriates themselves which is further why I believe this is trolling and attention whoring. Rosie is about to be an Irish citizen. But who knows, maybe since we are giving him attention he will just do it. Rosie will be fine either way. Having worked with many of them I can say there are many good people in Ireland. It certainly does not help that she has been publicly poking the bear. Unless she specifically states she wishes to keep her US citizenship then she is just playing into his drama.
People should absolutely be taking the president of the United States seriously. We got into this mess because not enough people took him seriously.
The president of the United States should be held to a MUCH higher standard of behavior than your regular internet dumbass. The fact we're arguing the exact opposite demonstrates, I think, just how unbelievably fucked the situation is.
For me, I cannot get past the 2020 election and the whole "alternate electors" thing. That has been done before, IIRC in 1960 for Hawaii. For a while it wasn't clear who won, and so there was an alternate slate of electors for a while. By the time the Electoral College voted, though, it was clear, and only one slate of electors was put forward.
In contrast, in 2020, Trump put forward the alternate electors, and pressured Pence to accept them as the real ones. He pressured Pence more than once. When part of the crowd on January 6 was shouting "hang Mike Pence", that's why. That was a deliberate, determined attempt to steal an election that he lost.
That colors my view of events like this. Trolling? Could be. But he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me on whether he's willing to try to do illegal things.
Sure. Trumpkins is trolling the media who are in turn amplifying the trolling and causing everyone even more emotional turmoil. With exception of those that enjoy rage-bait everyone else should just roll their eyes and not give him the attention he is seeking. In the old internet days the phrase was, "Don't feed the trolls." Negative attention is still attention. Trolls feed off all forms of attention. Social media algorithms reward and amplify this bad behavior thus giving him even more attention.
No, Trump is threatening a US citizen with executive power in a way that is wildly unconstitutional. You don't get to simply brush this off as "trolling" when it is the most powerful person on the planet making the threats, especially when those threats are being used as a bludgeon to silence legitimate criticisms of administrative failings.
For what it's worth the federal government can legally revoke Rosie's citizen once she completes the process of becoming a citizen of Ireland. [1] In fact they can do that to just about anyone that expatriates themselves. For him to make a big stink about it just tells me he is trolling. But who knows, maybe since we and other social media sites and forums are talking about it maybe he will just do it.
The expatriating act must be voluntary and take any of seven forms.
Committing any of the following acts will create a presumption that it was performed voluntarily with the idea of giving up U.S. citizenship, although the person might later be able to rebut (disprove) this presumption:
- Becoming a naturalized citizen of another country after age 18. <<-- This one.
- Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18.
- Accepting a position in the government of another country after age 18, if one has citizenship in, or declared allegiance to, that country.
- Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer.
- Formally renouncing U.S. nationality abroad before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer.
- Formally renouncing U.S. nationality in the U.S. when the U.S. is at war, if done in writing and with the approval of the U.S. Department of Justice.
- Being convicted of treason or participating in any attempt to overthrow the U.S. government.
The first five acts become effective as an act of expatriation only after the person who commits them has left the United States. The procedures for the sixth act (renunciation in the U.S.) have not yet been defined.
"For the most part, U.S. citizens (or nationals) can never be stripped of their U.S. citizenship (or nationality). It's the most secure immigration status there is. However, limited exceptions do exist. Also, people can give up U.S. citizenship voluntarily. This article will look at both possibilities."
Rosie was born in the US and is not voluntarily giving up her citizenship. I want to believe you're discussing in good faith, but nothing you posted is relevant to this discussion if it is the president threatening to strip a US citizen's rights from someone who isn't voluntarily giving them up.
There is no defending or explaining away what Trump is doing; it is awful, should be called out as awful, and it is unAmerican to the core. This isn't "trolling" this is creeping facism and should be called out as such.
Committing any of the following acts will create a presumption that it was performed voluntarily with the idea of giving up U.S. citizenship, although the person might later be able to rebut (disprove) this presumption:
So he may presume that she is no longer in need of a US citizenship. Has she publicly stated otherwise or is she just playing the back-and-forth drama game he started? If you know Trump and Rosie then you have to admit they both love drama. She could easily state, "I have no desire to rescind my US citizenship. I wish to keep my US citizenship." and then just ignore him until legal action is required.
I appreciate the reply but here is why I feel like what you're saying isn't in good faith.
Rosie has not become a naturalized citizen of Ireland, she has expressed interest but (unless you have evidence otherwise) her only citizenship is US.
As you said, she would voluntarily have to give up her citizenship. It is not within the US governments's power to remove the constitutional rights of citizens, only to preserve their natural right as laid out within our Constitution.
When you say things like, "he may presume that she is no longer in need of a US citizenship" it feels completely disingenuous since clearly this isn't some basic bureaucratic matter, he is directly threatening a US citizen with unconstitutional actions simply to silence criticism which is not what we do in this country and it should chill every American to their core to see such things happening.
The US Presidency isn't a reality TV show and politics isn't entertainment. We're witnessing abhorrent behavior from a sitting president and the threat alone is an abuse of executive power meant to suppress free speech and criticism. You might find it funny or trolling, but I expect more from our leaders in this country.
This is something outside of the power of the executive, but that Trump is even willing to express that he'd revoke the citizenship of someone (who, let's remember, isn't even an immigrant) because they disagree with him politically should anger every single US citizen regardless of their political bent.
He’s just a bully who is going to bully until he expires. He doesn’t care about the law, he’ll say whatever makes him feel powerful and stokes his supporters. Nothing you can do except operate around it until he goes, and luckily, we all go eventually.
She’s far safer in Ireland than on US soil for the remainder of this administration, and can challenge any unconstitutional infringements on her citizenship from afar.
It doesn't matter what he says, all that matters is what he tries, and what his sycophants in Congress and the Supreme Court let him get away with.
Rosie O'Donnell is a leftist and gay, so millions of Americans would have no qualms at all about putting her in a camp or shipping her off somewhere, regardless of her citizenship. But I suspect the Overton Window hasn't shifted far enough yet that her whiteness wouldn't make it political suicide even for Trump. Let the discourse about birthright citizenship percolate, though (although the courts are currently pushing against Trump in this regard,) and that might change.
It does matter what a president says. Heck, it matters what a king or dictator says. If a dictator trolls (lies on the edge of believability) I personally would be less likely to take a hint from him, or to have high morale.
I mean, I think at this point a lot of us are really that jaded, the last decade has been pretty traumatic. I feel like I have a scab on my soul.
But it really doesn't matter what this specific president says, because he's a senile, lying, prevaricating, shit-stirring lunatic. People will dismiss what he's doing as trolling or whatever (because in this case it's so out of pocket that one doesn't even have the fig leaf of "illegal immigration" to justify it) but if he actually tries it then the people will justify it somehow. But either way, Trump's words are meaningless, only his actions matter.
I think the very fact that we don't hold him accountable for the things that he says is the reason he is acting more and more like a "senile, lying, prevaricating, shit-stirring lunatic" and why he and his followers are more and more likely to abuse the system and attempt to circumvent basic norms and laws.
He floats something that is "insane" in the sense that it is either outside of norms or simply illegal, then he watches how people react. If there isn't much pushback, then he goes ahead and tries that action in a slightly less obnoxious way. It's a way of gauging his supporter's will, the political opposition, and the citizen's level of exhaustion to fight back against such things.
Iterate this behavior over and over again and the levels of what is "acceptable" behavior keeps being moved further outside of what we would have considered acceptable even just a few years before. The Overton window keeps shifting, more radical ideas keep getting floated, his supporters become more emboldened (with the help of media echo chambers), and the citizen's expectations for what is civil behavior continues to erode; all because we slowly become numb to the audacity of it all.
There is always some amount of misunderstand and obfuscation within communication but the fact we have allowed a sitting US president to blatantly lie continuously about the most basic and important parts of our government system (such as denying constitutionally protected basic human rights exist) as a political tool is a big part of why we are in the position we are right now as a nation.
Maybe that is what the majority wants and I'm in the minority for wanting and expecting civil behavior from our leaders, I honestly don't know anymore, but I hope not.
How would you suggest we hold him accountable for the things he says? We can't even hold him accountable for the crimes he commits. We tried impeaching him twice. The courts are barely able to contain him and Congress is complicit, and half the country supports everything he does.
Maybe if Democrats win the midterms a few months from now they can draft a strongly worded reprimand?
It should anger, and concern. And maybe even alarm.
Either Trump doesn't know that such a move is beyond his legal power, or he knows but intends to do it anyway, or he doesn't intend to do it at all and this is just his latest over-the-top way of expressing disapproval. The last one is, I suppose, the least alarming, but I still find it alarming that someone who thinks such bullying tactics are acceptable is the president.
> Either Guy doesn't know that such a move is beyond his legal power, or he knows but intends to do it anyway
Likeliest: He chooses to not believe what is clearly outside his authority.
Bolstering that are/is:
Numerous judges (inc SCotUS) that are overwhelmingly
deferential to ongoing WhiteHouse abuses
How the massive weight of burdens imposed upon WH victims tends
to devastate their ability to defend themselves
How the damage done by the WH is immediate and deeply destructive,
while any relief is tentative, delayed and broadly insufficient
With all due respect, this strikes me as impeachable. Small government, rule-of-law conservatives and libertarians should be up in arms if they're at all ideologically consistent.
In a republic, it might be possible to take away citizenship from naturalized citizens, but even that should require judicial action, not executive action.
It's not a matter of coming up with something impeachable. We are well past that and there are plenty of examples. It's about getting the people who have the job of performing it off of their asses and doing their job. They refuse to.
Correct, and when you change the lens you can see more clearly what is broken. The people who make up the congress no longer represent their constituents, they represent the president. That is not how it was supposed to work as laid out by the founding fathers. It’s in dire need of reform.
I will get beat up for this one ... I should not even reply to politics but unfortunately it is legal for a US president to troll and he trolls all day long on Twitster. The media know he is trolling and should not take him seriously but they pretend he is serious to get people spun up to get clicks and people rage commenting on their Youtube channels. I honestly wish he would knock it off. It's unprofessional, childish and is conduct unbecoming of a senior leader. He needs to get back to work and stay off Twitster even if it is his media assistants operating his account which I am certain is the case because I have seen him comment whilst at the same time speaking publicly so it can not really be him even if it is stuff he would say.
[Edit] I should have clarified that the federal government can revoke the citizenship of anyone that expatriates themselves which is further why I believe this is trolling and attention whoring. Rosie is about to be an Irish citizen. But who knows, maybe since we are giving him attention he will just do it. Rosie will be fine either way. Having worked with many of them I can say there are many good people in Ireland. It certainly does not help that she has been publicly poking the bear. Unless she specifically states she wishes to keep her US citizenship then she is just playing into his drama.
People should absolutely be taking the president of the United States seriously. We got into this mess because not enough people took him seriously.
The president of the United States should be held to a MUCH higher standard of behavior than your regular internet dumbass. The fact we're arguing the exact opposite demonstrates, I think, just how unbelievably fucked the situation is.
Unidentified masked officials are running around kidnapping US citizens and sending them to camps to get tortured.
The president responds by waving a photo shopped picture as "proof".
And you keep giving him the benefit of the doubt as if he's just trolling...
Why is it so hard to call a spade a spade?
I would be delighted to think he was trolling.
For me, I cannot get past the 2020 election and the whole "alternate electors" thing. That has been done before, IIRC in 1960 for Hawaii. For a while it wasn't clear who won, and so there was an alternate slate of electors for a while. By the time the Electoral College voted, though, it was clear, and only one slate of electors was put forward.
In contrast, in 2020, Trump put forward the alternate electors, and pressured Pence to accept them as the real ones. He pressured Pence more than once. When part of the crowd on January 6 was shouting "hang Mike Pence", that's why. That was a deliberate, determined attempt to steal an election that he lost.
That colors my view of events like this. Trolling? Could be. But he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me on whether he's willing to try to do illegal things.
In a brief sentence or two, what is your specific point here?
Sure. Trumpkins is trolling the media who are in turn amplifying the trolling and causing everyone even more emotional turmoil. With exception of those that enjoy rage-bait everyone else should just roll their eyes and not give him the attention he is seeking. In the old internet days the phrase was, "Don't feed the trolls." Negative attention is still attention. Trolls feed off all forms of attention. Social media algorithms reward and amplify this bad behavior thus giving him even more attention.
No, Trump is threatening a US citizen with executive power in a way that is wildly unconstitutional. You don't get to simply brush this off as "trolling" when it is the most powerful person on the planet making the threats, especially when those threats are being used as a bludgeon to silence legitimate criticisms of administrative failings.
For what it's worth the federal government can legally revoke Rosie's citizen once she completes the process of becoming a citizen of Ireland. [1] In fact they can do that to just about anyone that expatriates themselves. For him to make a big stink about it just tells me he is trolling. But who knows, maybe since we and other social media sites and forums are talking about it maybe he will just do it.
The expatriating act must be voluntary and take any of seven forms.
Committing any of the following acts will create a presumption that it was performed voluntarily with the idea of giving up U.S. citizenship, although the person might later be able to rebut (disprove) this presumption:
- Becoming a naturalized citizen of another country after age 18. <<-- This one.
- Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18.
- Accepting a position in the government of another country after age 18, if one has citizenship in, or declared allegiance to, that country.
- Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer.
- Formally renouncing U.S. nationality abroad before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer.
- Formally renouncing U.S. nationality in the U.S. when the U.S. is at war, if done in writing and with the approval of the U.S. Department of Justice.
- Being convicted of treason or participating in any attempt to overthrow the U.S. government.
The first five acts become effective as an act of expatriation only after the person who commits them has left the United States. The procedures for the sixth act (renunciation in the U.S.) have not yet been defined.
[1] - https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-can...
"For the most part, U.S. citizens (or nationals) can never be stripped of their U.S. citizenship (or nationality). It's the most secure immigration status there is. However, limited exceptions do exist. Also, people can give up U.S. citizenship voluntarily. This article will look at both possibilities."
Rosie was born in the US and is not voluntarily giving up her citizenship. I want to believe you're discussing in good faith, but nothing you posted is relevant to this discussion if it is the president threatening to strip a US citizen's rights from someone who isn't voluntarily giving them up.
There is no defending or explaining away what Trump is doing; it is awful, should be called out as awful, and it is unAmerican to the core. This isn't "trolling" this is creeping facism and should be called out as such.
Absolutely good faith. It also says:
Committing any of the following acts will create a presumption that it was performed voluntarily with the idea of giving up U.S. citizenship, although the person might later be able to rebut (disprove) this presumption:
So he may presume that she is no longer in need of a US citizenship. Has she publicly stated otherwise or is she just playing the back-and-forth drama game he started? If you know Trump and Rosie then you have to admit they both love drama. She could easily state, "I have no desire to rescind my US citizenship. I wish to keep my US citizenship." and then just ignore him until legal action is required.
I appreciate the reply but here is why I feel like what you're saying isn't in good faith.
Rosie has not become a naturalized citizen of Ireland, she has expressed interest but (unless you have evidence otherwise) her only citizenship is US.
As you said, she would voluntarily have to give up her citizenship. It is not within the US governments's power to remove the constitutional rights of citizens, only to preserve their natural right as laid out within our Constitution.
When you say things like, "he may presume that she is no longer in need of a US citizenship" it feels completely disingenuous since clearly this isn't some basic bureaucratic matter, he is directly threatening a US citizen with unconstitutional actions simply to silence criticism which is not what we do in this country and it should chill every American to their core to see such things happening.
The US Presidency isn't a reality TV show and politics isn't entertainment. We're witnessing abhorrent behavior from a sitting president and the threat alone is an abuse of executive power meant to suppress free speech and criticism. You might find it funny or trolling, but I expect more from our leaders in this country.
This is something outside of the power of the executive, but that Trump is even willing to express that he'd revoke the citizenship of someone (who, let's remember, isn't even an immigrant) because they disagree with him politically should anger every single US citizen regardless of their political bent.
He’s just a bully who is going to bully until he expires. He doesn’t care about the law, he’ll say whatever makes him feel powerful and stokes his supporters. Nothing you can do except operate around it until he goes, and luckily, we all go eventually.
She’s far safer in Ireland than on US soil for the remainder of this administration, and can challenge any unconstitutional infringements on her citizenship from afar.
It doesn't matter what he says, all that matters is what he tries, and what his sycophants in Congress and the Supreme Court let him get away with.
Rosie O'Donnell is a leftist and gay, so millions of Americans would have no qualms at all about putting her in a camp or shipping her off somewhere, regardless of her citizenship. But I suspect the Overton Window hasn't shifted far enough yet that her whiteness wouldn't make it political suicide even for Trump. Let the discourse about birthright citizenship percolate, though (although the courts are currently pushing against Trump in this regard,) and that might change.
It does matter what a president says, or are we really that jaded?
It does matter what a president says. Heck, it matters what a king or dictator says. If a dictator trolls (lies on the edge of believability) I personally would be less likely to take a hint from him, or to have high morale.
I mean, I think at this point a lot of us are really that jaded, the last decade has been pretty traumatic. I feel like I have a scab on my soul.
But it really doesn't matter what this specific president says, because he's a senile, lying, prevaricating, shit-stirring lunatic. People will dismiss what he's doing as trolling or whatever (because in this case it's so out of pocket that one doesn't even have the fig leaf of "illegal immigration" to justify it) but if he actually tries it then the people will justify it somehow. But either way, Trump's words are meaningless, only his actions matter.
I think the very fact that we don't hold him accountable for the things that he says is the reason he is acting more and more like a "senile, lying, prevaricating, shit-stirring lunatic" and why he and his followers are more and more likely to abuse the system and attempt to circumvent basic norms and laws.
He floats something that is "insane" in the sense that it is either outside of norms or simply illegal, then he watches how people react. If there isn't much pushback, then he goes ahead and tries that action in a slightly less obnoxious way. It's a way of gauging his supporter's will, the political opposition, and the citizen's level of exhaustion to fight back against such things.
Iterate this behavior over and over again and the levels of what is "acceptable" behavior keeps being moved further outside of what we would have considered acceptable even just a few years before. The Overton window keeps shifting, more radical ideas keep getting floated, his supporters become more emboldened (with the help of media echo chambers), and the citizen's expectations for what is civil behavior continues to erode; all because we slowly become numb to the audacity of it all.
There is always some amount of misunderstand and obfuscation within communication but the fact we have allowed a sitting US president to blatantly lie continuously about the most basic and important parts of our government system (such as denying constitutionally protected basic human rights exist) as a political tool is a big part of why we are in the position we are right now as a nation.
Maybe that is what the majority wants and I'm in the minority for wanting and expecting civil behavior from our leaders, I honestly don't know anymore, but I hope not.
How would you suggest we hold him accountable for the things he says? We can't even hold him accountable for the crimes he commits. We tried impeaching him twice. The courts are barely able to contain him and Congress is complicit, and half the country supports everything he does.
Maybe if Democrats win the midterms a few months from now they can draft a strongly worded reprimand?
It should anger, and concern. And maybe even alarm.
Either Trump doesn't know that such a move is beyond his legal power, or he knows but intends to do it anyway, or he doesn't intend to do it at all and this is just his latest over-the-top way of expressing disapproval. The last one is, I suppose, the least alarming, but I still find it alarming that someone who thinks such bullying tactics are acceptable is the president.
> Either Guy doesn't know that such a move is beyond his legal power, or he knows but intends to do it anyway
Likeliest: He chooses to not believe what is clearly outside his authority.
Bolstering that are/is:
[dead]
First he came for the trans.
Then he came for the immigrants.
Then he came for the browns.
Then he came for the political opponents.
When he eventually comes for you, will there be someone to help you?
With all due respect, this strikes me as impeachable. Small government, rule-of-law conservatives and libertarians should be up in arms if they're at all ideologically consistent.
In a republic, it might be possible to take away citizenship from naturalized citizens, but even that should require judicial action, not executive action.
It's not a matter of coming up with something impeachable. We are well past that and there are plenty of examples. It's about getting the people who have the job of performing it off of their asses and doing their job. They refuse to.
> this strikes me as impeachable.
Impeachability of PotUS reflects the will+desire of US House (to impeach). The offenses committed by the PotUS is secondary to that.
While the above doesn't follow the stipulations laid out in the Constitution, it is our unfortunate reality.
Correct, and when you change the lens you can see more clearly what is broken. The people who make up the congress no longer represent their constituents, they represent the president. That is not how it was supposed to work as laid out by the founding fathers. It’s in dire need of reform.