Many people have probably seen the CarShield vehicle service contract commercials on the TV in the US - typically a 'vehicle service plan' written with onerous terms and massive hoops to go through.
After a flood of bad BBB reviews, CarShield successfully sued and settled with the BBB circa 2020, and the stories are (mostly) buried.
When an optometrist chose to file a claim against my medical insurance (which did not pay) rather than my vision insurance (which would), the only way I was able to get them to fix it was by filing a complaint with the BBB. Multiple calls with customer service only resulted in "there is nothing we can do to change it", but somehow they figured out how to fix it when they got the BBB complaint letter.
How else can private citizens keep businesses honest? Complaining on the internet only works if you have lots of followers.
> How else can private citizens keep businesses honest?
I know this was a rhetorical question, but in many countries there is some type of Fair Trading Office, meaning a government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements.
> government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements
These would in fact be great thing. The problem being that if this existed and did what it was supposed to do, it would only be a matter of time before Trump appointed someone to either destroy it or weaponize it against perceived enemies.
The bigger question is how can we have a body that can both protect consumers from bad businesses AND can also be itself protected from the purchased political influence of those bad businesses.
That’s exactly right. BBB is Yelp for boomers, and that’s it. I’ve heard plenty of older family and acquaintances wave it around like a weapon: “if they don’t honor my (ridiculous) request, I’ll sic the BBB on them!” And then… what? I’m sure someone, somewhere checks BBB before doing business with a company, but I’ve never personally seen someone do it, and without that feedback loop, the BBB is just another private review site with zero teeth.
People don't look businesses up on Facebook or X much here either, and yet many times I've witnessed my SO break through being stonewalled by some business with just a simple line, delivered in calm voice: "okay, I'll take it to Facebook, we'll see if you like a drama there" (or "X" more recently). Just like that, 90% success rate, and no actual public drama on social media.
Don't know how that works. It's Poland, approximately nobody here even used Twitter, nor do they use X - and yet, businesses big and small seem super sensitive to that.
I’m a bit older than you, but same. I’ve bought property and land, and it never occurred to me to check BBB for anything, ever. I know it’s a thing that exists, and that’s about the extent of it.
I don't understand why they need to "substantiate" their opinion, but the commenter they're replying to wouldn't need to substantiate their anecdotal evidence. They can "literally" claim anything.
I do think Mindless2112's experience is common with larger businesses, making the BBB potentially more effective in those cases than online review sites like Google or Yelp. Also, do those sites send complaint letters? I don't know.
There is a miles of difference between providing one specific claim based on experience that does not claim that this happens with all businesses. Vs the other claim that BBB complaints doesn't work and is no more than a glorified lists in general.
They mean inherently I think. As in it doesn't enforce any "better business" practices. The only threat is public shaming through them. But they themselves won't actually solve it.
I don't see anything to indicate that Mindless2112 is "lying," but it does look like they might be a bit confused. BBB really is just another review website like Yelp and Google reviews (with the added step of sending the business a letter in the mail).
There used to be a site many years ago called Bad Business Bureau. And there was a listing for the BBB, "Better Business Bureau", and it was full of complaints. Complaints you would never see on BBB's own website.
I recall paid BBB propaganda being allowed into some schools. Essentially the BBB donates to high school business classes and in return the educators explain it to students but without criticism.
You don't need to be smooth. There are a bajillion businesses of ill repute run by questionable people who will pay to have anybody official sounding say that they're good to go.
BBB is essentially only a negative indicator in that if a business has a terrible BBB reputation, they are probably terrible, but Accreditation or any positive status from the BBB means nothing.
Nah there's a whole multi billion dollar business of trust building review services. Trustpilot, Travel Advisor, G2/Captera/various enterprise SaaS review sites. It's a big business and you are probably not the target audience if you have actual domain knowledge.
Honestly, BBB means nothing to me. I see it and I shrug. Reviews, checking the business out yourself, and using a dozen other cues are more useful than BBB.
Reminds me when I mentioned to my friend's Grandpa that I get AAA just cause I need an IDP and he went onto this big tangent about how he's been a "proud card-carrying AAA member for 40 years" or some such, talked about it like it was a club, he'd meet other members for dinners and whatnot.
I think America was basically a different country before the 90s.
Not GP. One of the things that AAA makes easy is getting an IDP, which is not related to roadside assistance (or vehicle insurance).
IDP is “International Driving Permit”, which is a booklet that certifies that the person has a driving license in <country> for <class of vehicles>. It includes the photo of the person and the date of birth. It includes translation in various languages so that when you’re in another country and rent a vehicle (or drive one) and the police (or enforcers) need to check if you have a valid license, you can show this (as well as your original license, if asked for). Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
> Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
You heard right, but that's because you won't get one at all from the any state DMV. The AAA is the only authorized entity allowed to issue IDPs in the USA. I wish I was making it up, because I'd rather go to my (excellent) DMV office than across town.
I wasn't even aware you could get them at the DNV. I've always gone to AAA to get one. They have always seemed like a bit of a scam to me since anytime I've been stopped in a foreign country the police have been more interested in my passport and actual drivers license.
Random note just cause people are looking - if you do get your IDP, make sure to get the stamp for your certs (e.g., car, motorcycle, whatever) on EVERY page of the AAA IDP, for every language. My friend's plans for a motorcycle trip in Japan with us were shot when he showed up and there was a stamp missing from the Arabic page or some such, and the Japanese rental agency was insistent on the IDP looking exactly as it's supposed to per their SOP, and refused to rent to him, even though there was the correct stamp on the Japanese page.
When I got my IDP next year they only stamped the english page and I asked them to stamp all the pages, the AAA people pushed back and said it's not necessary. I shared my story about no, it really is, and they pushed back more. I said I really need to get all my stamps or I need my money back, since the IDP is useless to me without all the stamps (this is after I was no longer a AAA number) and the lady finally rolled her eyes and stamped it.
Depends very much on the country. Many countries don't care, some like Japan will absolutely refuse to let you drive a car without one.
And it has to be the correct flavor of IDP too, meaning proper 1949 Geneva Convention on proper 1940s cardboard, none of that new-fangled 1969 Vienna Convention nonsense. Oh, your country has signed up to 1969 but not 1949? No car in Japan for you then.
Oddly enough, no car rental place has ever checked. Supposedly the police care, but I haven't seen much evidence of that either. Given they only cost $25, I keep one with me anyway.
Fair enough. If you’ve already jumped through the hoops of getting a passport, that’s a trivial extra expense. Use it one time ever and you’d be pretty happy to have spent it.
It was. I remember taking road trips with the assumption that our destination location would be a very different place. Different accent, styles, restaurants, overall feel.
Many people have probably seen the CarShield vehicle service contract commercials on the TV in the US - typically a 'vehicle service plan' written with onerous terms and massive hoops to go through.
After a flood of bad BBB reviews, CarShield successfully sued and settled with the BBB circa 2020, and the stories are (mostly) buried.
CarShield currently has an A rating by the BBB, in light of this. https://www.bbb.org/us/mo/saint-peters/profile/auto-service-...
https://muddyrivernews.com/top-stories/those-guys-are-shady-... https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/carshield-must-pay...
They also ran "BBBBias.com" for a while on that front - https://web.archive.org/web/20201218125917/https://bbbbias.c...
When an optometrist chose to file a claim against my medical insurance (which did not pay) rather than my vision insurance (which would), the only way I was able to get them to fix it was by filing a complaint with the BBB. Multiple calls with customer service only resulted in "there is nothing we can do to change it", but somehow they figured out how to fix it when they got the BBB complaint letter.
How else can private citizens keep businesses honest? Complaining on the internet only works if you have lots of followers.
> How else can private citizens keep businesses honest?
I know this was a rhetorical question, but in many countries there is some type of Fair Trading Office, meaning a government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements.
> government body with power to adjudicate consumer complaints about businesses and the legal teeth to enforce its judgements
These would in fact be great thing. The problem being that if this existed and did what it was supposed to do, it would only be a matter of time before Trump appointed someone to either destroy it or weaponize it against perceived enemies.
The bigger question is how can we have a body that can both protect consumers from bad businesses AND can also be itself protected from the purchased political influence of those bad businesses.
The BBB complaints list is a glorified internet post. It's not keeping a business any more honest than posting a review on Google or Yelp.
That’s exactly right. BBB is Yelp for boomers, and that’s it. I’ve heard plenty of older family and acquaintances wave it around like a weapon: “if they don’t honor my (ridiculous) request, I’ll sic the BBB on them!” And then… what? I’m sure someone, somewhere checks BBB before doing business with a company, but I’ve never personally seen someone do it, and without that feedback loop, the BBB is just another private review site with zero teeth.
People don't look businesses up on Facebook or X much here either, and yet many times I've witnessed my SO break through being stonewalled by some business with just a simple line, delivered in calm voice: "okay, I'll take it to Facebook, we'll see if you like a drama there" (or "X" more recently). Just like that, 90% success rate, and no actual public drama on social media.
Don't know how that works. It's Poland, approximately nobody here even used Twitter, nor do they use X - and yet, businesses big and small seem super sensitive to that.
I think a lot of older people really thought the BBB was an arm of the government and had power to enforce things.
I think they were clever with the name “Bureau”. It has a connotation of officialness, like “Agency” or “Administration”.
You can still hear on the local news here: “Or you can file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.”
Speaking for myself, I know that I have never looked up a business for BBB accreditation. (I am 43 and a half).
Yelp reviews, TripAdvisor, Google reviews, yes.
And as honestly never crossed my mind to check with BBB about anything.
But I haven't done any major purchasing like with property, land, or similar.
I’m a bit older than you, but same. I’ve bought property and land, and it never occurred to me to check BBB for anything, ever. I know it’s a thing that exists, and that’s about the extent of it.
>. BBB is Yelp for boomers,
Complete with undeserved reputability and "pay to remove" system to extract $ on the business facing side.
And in the same vein, yelp is bbb for millennials.
No argument from me on that one. The main difference is that I’ve actually steered away from businesses with bad Yelp reviews.
The person you're responding to literally claims otherwise. Are you calling them a liar or do you have something to substantiate your claims?
I don't understand why they need to "substantiate" their opinion, but the commenter they're replying to wouldn't need to substantiate their anecdotal evidence. They can "literally" claim anything.
I do think Mindless2112's experience is common with larger businesses, making the BBB potentially more effective in those cases than online review sites like Google or Yelp. Also, do those sites send complaint letters? I don't know.
There is a miles of difference between providing one specific claim based on experience that does not claim that this happens with all businesses. Vs the other claim that BBB complaints doesn't work and is no more than a glorified lists in general.
They mean inherently I think. As in it doesn't enforce any "better business" practices. The only threat is public shaming through them. But they themselves won't actually solve it.
I don't see anything to indicate that Mindless2112 is "lying," but it does look like they might be a bit confused. BBB really is just another review website like Yelp and Google reviews (with the added step of sending the business a letter in the mail).
Small claims usually works quite well.
The shadiness of the BBB has come up here before; for instance:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3067731
The BBB used to work so well because most people thought they were a government agency. The thought a complaint to the BBB came with actual penalties.
Now a lot more people know that they are basically just the first version of Yelp.
My interaction with a Chicago hotel with hidden exorbitant fees was useless with the BBB, but gained traction with the state attorney general.
Carving overcharges back is a pleasant thing.
There used to be a site many years ago called Bad Business Bureau. And there was a listing for the BBB, "Better Business Bureau", and it was full of complaints. Complaints you would never see on BBB's own website.
In partial jest, has BBB been known to accreditate themselves?
(A blatantly obvious silicon valley TV show reference)
Once I learned how the BBB worked I regarded them as a kind of bizarre quasi-voluntary protection racket. I wish more people knew about it.
I recall paid BBB propaganda being allowed into some schools. Essentially the BBB donates to high school business classes and in return the educators explain it to students but without criticism.
How did BBB ever get a business off the ground based on paid for acceditation???
Were they just smooth talkers?
You don't need to be smooth. There are a bajillion businesses of ill repute run by questionable people who will pay to have anybody official sounding say that they're good to go.
Yes, same as all the other pay to win "certification" companies.
BBB is essentially only a negative indicator in that if a business has a terrible BBB reputation, they are probably terrible, but Accreditation or any positive status from the BBB means nothing.
This is true of most reviews and the internet in general.
People come to complain more than say good things. So take online complaints in that context.
fwiw, I've read it depends on which city you use the BBB. St Louis in particular is considered a quality BBB among a few others.
Sounds like a thing of the past
Nah there's a whole multi billion dollar business of trust building review services. Trustpilot, Travel Advisor, G2/Captera/various enterprise SaaS review sites. It's a big business and you are probably not the target audience if you have actual domain knowledge.
Why people trust G2 is beyond me.
They openly allow, and facilitate, vendors bribing you to leave reviews
Honestly, BBB means nothing to me. I see it and I shrug. Reviews, checking the business out yourself, and using a dozen other cues are more useful than BBB.
It’s funny I’ve had to opposite experience as a consumer. I’ve had companies who couldn’t give a single shit finally respond when I left a BBB review.
So I’ve always taken this as a sign of quality. Clearly though, that’s not always the case.
Reminds me when I mentioned to my friend's Grandpa that I get AAA just cause I need an IDP and he went onto this big tangent about how he's been a "proud card-carrying AAA member for 40 years" or some such, talked about it like it was a club, he'd meet other members for dinners and whatnot.
I think America was basically a different country before the 90s.
I love how AAA is lobbying/positioning itself to basically be a less shitty private DMV where possible.
You don't even need to be a member. Just walk in, show your driver's license, pay $20 or so and walk out with your international drivers permit.
What’s IDP in the context of roadside service insurance?
Not GP. One of the things that AAA makes easy is getting an IDP, which is not related to roadside assistance (or vehicle insurance).
IDP is “International Driving Permit”, which is a booklet that certifies that the person has a driving license in <country> for <class of vehicles>. It includes the photo of the person and the date of birth. It includes translation in various languages so that when you’re in another country and rent a vehicle (or drive one) and the police (or enforcers) need to check if you have a valid license, you can show this (as well as your original license, if asked for). Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
> Anecdotally, I’ve heard that the process to get it through AAA seems quicker and easier than from the DMV.
You heard right, but that's because you won't get one at all from the any state DMV. The AAA is the only authorized entity allowed to issue IDPs in the USA. I wish I was making it up, because I'd rather go to my (excellent) DMV office than across town.
"The American Automobile Association (AAA) is the official organization authorized by the U.S. Department of State to issue IDPs" from https://www.usa.gov/international-drivers-license
No, you can get an IDP online. Linked from the state department:
https://www.aataidp.com/
It's easier than going to an AAA office. Slightly more expensive but worth it. They mail it to you quite quickly.
I wasn't even aware you could get them at the DNV. I've always gone to AAA to get one. They have always seemed like a bit of a scam to me since anytime I've been stopped in a foreign country the police have been more interested in my passport and actual drivers license.
Depending on the country, there might be a reciprocal agreement that allows driving with your state license.
I've been a few places where that's the case, and a couple others where the car rental place actually validated the IDP.
Random note just cause people are looking - if you do get your IDP, make sure to get the stamp for your certs (e.g., car, motorcycle, whatever) on EVERY page of the AAA IDP, for every language. My friend's plans for a motorcycle trip in Japan with us were shot when he showed up and there was a stamp missing from the Arabic page or some such, and the Japanese rental agency was insistent on the IDP looking exactly as it's supposed to per their SOP, and refused to rent to him, even though there was the correct stamp on the Japanese page.
When I got my IDP next year they only stamped the english page and I asked them to stamp all the pages, the AAA people pushed back and said it's not necessary. I shared my story about no, it really is, and they pushed back more. I said I really need to get all my stamps or I need my money back, since the IDP is useless to me without all the stamps (this is after I was no longer a AAA number) and the lady finally rolled her eyes and stamped it.
Oh! Today I learned, thanks! I didn’t even know that was a thing. Would you need that for renting a car in another country?
Depends very much on the country. Many countries don't care, some like Japan will absolutely refuse to let you drive a car without one.
And it has to be the correct flavor of IDP too, meaning proper 1949 Geneva Convention on proper 1940s cardboard, none of that new-fangled 1969 Vienna Convention nonsense. Oh, your country has signed up to 1969 but not 1949? No car in Japan for you then.
Oddly enough, no car rental place has ever checked. Supposedly the police care, but I haven't seen much evidence of that either. Given they only cost $25, I keep one with me anyway.
In Korea last year I was asked. And they did check both the IDP and my original driving license, as they should have.
Fair enough. If you’ve already jumped through the hoops of getting a passport, that’s a trivial extra expense. Use it one time ever and you’d be pretty happy to have spent it.
Maybe International Driving Permit? Our local version of AAA issues them, but you don't have to be a member.
It was. I remember taking road trips with the assumption that our destination location would be a very different place. Different accent, styles, restaurants, overall feel.
Today, it’s almost the same everywhere I go
Yelp is the BBB with the quiet parts out loud.