Darn, it's all rather obvious. Personally, I could never sustain a regimented five-day workweek. That just left Saturday to decompress, and Sunday to be on the edge for going back. There's no time for actual life, especially in North America where people typically get shitty amounts of vacation time. Is that life?
Personally, I'd rather be poor, at least defined by modern economic standards. And I did choose to be. And after having quit my high-paying job, I'm so much happier.
Seriously my job is relatively relaxed, but I am still losing my mind because it is just an endless stretch of 5 day weeks for... 20 years? The only version of reality where I could accept that is if I had kids and family all dependent on my work, but without that I am unsure how people aren't filled with ennui when they look into that future.
Well, I think that's part of the lock-in. Not kids exactly, but the fact that society has made raising kids over time a hugely expensive activity (whereas once it was not in much earlier times). Because in modern society, having a family means paying for services to keep them functioning (extracurricular activities, romantic vacations for the parents, daycare), and that was encouraged by the system not because it makes us the most happy, but because it is the most efficient for technological innovation.
One does not necessarily need a healthy environment for the next generation of scientists if there is already a surplus of them willing to work in rather sordid conditions, and if there is a surplus of scientific discoveries that can be easily capitalized upon with few workers. Or if there is a surplus of science being done elsehwere. The system optimizes for short-term production and growth, and a good environment for science everyhere is not necessarily optimal for that.
Kids play a part in trapping you in that lifestyle though. If you’re fortunate enough to have a job where you can save money, as long as you don’t have kids you still have the option of just packing your bags and pissing off somewhere for a while.
Lifestyle creep is another way people get trapped in the rat race. Buying silly stuff like expensive cars on finance to show off.
Working from home makes it more bearable. It feels like I use my free time to make money instead of going to work. It's not like I do hobbies 16 hours a day
I wish the job market was better so I could find a more engaging job.
Yeah, it's tough to find an engaging job that provides a balance because of the insane competition that will only get worse due to the increase in efficiency with AI. Efficiency up to a point implies comfort, and beyond that point implies wage-slavery.
I sustained a five day workweek for more than two decades, but now that I have young kids it's hard. Weekdays are work + childcare, then two hours of being a vegetable, then sleep. Weekends are childcare, then two hours of being a vegetable, then sleep.
A 4 day work week would really help by giving me one day with 8 hours of me time, but that's not something any job here is going to provide. Fortunately, having sustained that 5 day work week for so long with "North America" compensation, I can comfortably go to a 0 day work week. It would be better for the economy if I continued to participate via a 3 or 4 day work week, but any job that would give me that would pay so little as to not be worth it.
> It would be better for the economy if I continued to participate via a 3 or 4 day work week
Not necessarily even. Better for the GDP but not necessarily the long-term economy, which might actually be more likely to thrive in the long run with more happy, balanced people out there.
Honestly I have not asked. I've poked around in the HR guidelines for companies I've worked for (big tech companies) and the provisions for less than full-time work are either non-existent or so full of unfriendly exceptions and approvals that I assumed it wasn't a realistic option. I have also never seen or heard of anyone doing it at those companies across the hundreds of people I have worked with.
I'd love to hear if anyone at a FAANG pulled it off, how they did it, and what the financial impact was.
I’ll echo what others are saying about four days preventing burnout and leaving mental space for other activities.
Just for last year, I went back to five days to get something out the door. Being there every day with my team was nice, and I balanced the heavy mental work with exercise at night or on weekends. But hobby coding — or writing or anything requiring mental juice — stopped entirely. By the end of the year as we got close to shipping, I was drifting into that “what the hell am I spending my life for” mindset.
Going back to four days this year fixed it. Each work day is still mentally exhausting, but I’ve been using my day off for personal stuff and, randomly, to practice slack lining with a small group of flexible friends. I’m so grateful to have this option.
This is in large part because of the overhead of providing healthcare for more employees, as it is a fixed per-person cost not related to hours worked.
I think one of the main benefits of a four-day workweek is having a regular weekday free, meaning you can easily do errands and things without having to take time off work or cut into the shared time of the traditional weekend where many things are closed and we have so many of our non-work social commitments. Were the four-day workweek to be mass adopted, I would hope we as a society would be smart enough to not all choose the same four days.
Yes, it would not be good if the same four days were selected. The third day should be free-ranging, because then everyone else is out too, which is irritating!
More work doesn't need to be done, the same amount needs to be done in 4 days as in 5. Saying this, some careers, including my own, the more tired I am and less rested mentally and physically, the slower work gets done, to the point where it's not feasible to do it sometimes as it's very much thinking based and tiredness can hamper that greatly. Therefore more rest allows me to actually overall be more productive over the course of a working week.
>The study, reported in Nature Human Behaviour, was designed to test the effects of the four-day workweek with no reduction in pay.
>The researchers compared work and health-related indicators – including burnout, job satisfaction, and mental and physical health – before and after the intervention using survey data.
so they surveyed people after having them work less about whether or not they liked working less and getting paid the same? wow thats pretty compelling stuff there. maybe we could see if a 1 day work week "RULES" next
I work 5 days a week and I like my work. But my feeling is that it is too much. My job is demanding enough thst I can't really do a lot on workdays that isn't work related. On saturday I have to do my private shit (cleaning, other chores) which leaves sunday for my real interest stuff. On Monday I am rarely truly rested.
I am pretty sure that is neither in my, nor my employers interest. Since my work quality goes down if I am fatigued. If things continue like this I am going into a burn out and then good luck to them. A 4-day week would be interesting because then I'd have at least a chance to get rest over the weekend.
Darn, it's all rather obvious. Personally, I could never sustain a regimented five-day workweek. That just left Saturday to decompress, and Sunday to be on the edge for going back. There's no time for actual life, especially in North America where people typically get shitty amounts of vacation time. Is that life?
Personally, I'd rather be poor, at least defined by modern economic standards. And I did choose to be. And after having quit my high-paying job, I'm so much happier.
Seriously my job is relatively relaxed, but I am still losing my mind because it is just an endless stretch of 5 day weeks for... 20 years? The only version of reality where I could accept that is if I had kids and family all dependent on my work, but without that I am unsure how people aren't filled with ennui when they look into that future.
Well, I think that's part of the lock-in. Not kids exactly, but the fact that society has made raising kids over time a hugely expensive activity (whereas once it was not in much earlier times). Because in modern society, having a family means paying for services to keep them functioning (extracurricular activities, romantic vacations for the parents, daycare), and that was encouraged by the system not because it makes us the most happy, but because it is the most efficient for technological innovation.
> because it is the most efficient for technological innovation
Probably more efficient for rentism. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
It destroys the very conditions for the next generation of scientists being raised.
One does not necessarily need a healthy environment for the next generation of scientists if there is already a surplus of them willing to work in rather sordid conditions, and if there is a surplus of scientific discoveries that can be easily capitalized upon with few workers. Or if there is a surplus of science being done elsehwere. The system optimizes for short-term production and growth, and a good environment for science everyhere is not necessarily optimal for that.
Kids play a part in trapping you in that lifestyle though. If you’re fortunate enough to have a job where you can save money, as long as you don’t have kids you still have the option of just packing your bags and pissing off somewhere for a while.
Lifestyle creep is another way people get trapped in the rat race. Buying silly stuff like expensive cars on finance to show off.
That is true, I agree for sure. One of many reasons why I never want them....
Working from home makes it more bearable. It feels like I use my free time to make money instead of going to work. It's not like I do hobbies 16 hours a day
I wish the job market was better so I could find a more engaging job.
Yeah, it's tough to find an engaging job that provides a balance because of the insane competition that will only get worse due to the increase in efficiency with AI. Efficiency up to a point implies comfort, and beyond that point implies wage-slavery.
That's another thing about America. People work too far from their job so you are adding a long commute to your daily grind.
[dead]
I sustained a five day workweek for more than two decades, but now that I have young kids it's hard. Weekdays are work + childcare, then two hours of being a vegetable, then sleep. Weekends are childcare, then two hours of being a vegetable, then sleep.
A 4 day work week would really help by giving me one day with 8 hours of me time, but that's not something any job here is going to provide. Fortunately, having sustained that 5 day work week for so long with "North America" compensation, I can comfortably go to a 0 day work week. It would be better for the economy if I continued to participate via a 3 or 4 day work week, but any job that would give me that would pay so little as to not be worth it.
> It would be better for the economy if I continued to participate via a 3 or 4 day work week
Not necessarily even. Better for the GDP but not necessarily the long-term economy, which might actually be more likely to thrive in the long run with more happy, balanced people out there.
how many companies have you asked whether you can work 3 or 4 day workweek? and what was difference in salary for those that accepted?
Honestly I have not asked. I've poked around in the HR guidelines for companies I've worked for (big tech companies) and the provisions for less than full-time work are either non-existent or so full of unfriendly exceptions and approvals that I assumed it wasn't a realistic option. I have also never seen or heard of anyone doing it at those companies across the hundreds of people I have worked with.
I'd love to hear if anyone at a FAANG pulled it off, how they did it, and what the financial impact was.
I’ll echo what others are saying about four days preventing burnout and leaving mental space for other activities.
Just for last year, I went back to five days to get something out the door. Being there every day with my team was nice, and I balanced the heavy mental work with exercise at night or on weekends. But hobby coding — or writing or anything requiring mental juice — stopped entirely. By the end of the year as we got close to shipping, I was drifting into that “what the hell am I spending my life for” mindset.
Going back to four days this year fixed it. Each work day is still mentally exhausting, but I’ve been using my day off for personal stuff and, randomly, to practice slack lining with a small group of flexible friends. I’m so grateful to have this option.
FAA to Air Traffic Controllers: Constant 6 day workweeks it is then. (my opinion, not FAA opinion)
It is cheaper to pay ATC overtime than it is to hire new controllers.
I imagine it would be similar in a lot of other industries.
This is in large part because of the overhead of providing healthcare for more employees, as it is a fixed per-person cost not related to hours worked.
My ideal work schedule is a 4 day one but w/ wednesday's off, instead of 4-3, 4-3.
2-1-2-2 doesn't feel like work, I could do that routine in perpetuity.
Do you have to do research to find out that you're happier if you work less but still get paid the same?
Earlier on source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44638839
I personally never trust statements where the grammatical subject is "science"
just give me UBI and lets some AI or outsourced do my job.
feel like i have to watch out the slow decline of the inevitable
or maybe we are expected to be gig workers instead of UBI.
in that case give me the euthanasia pod
I think one of the main benefits of a four-day workweek is having a regular weekday free, meaning you can easily do errands and things without having to take time off work or cut into the shared time of the traditional weekend where many things are closed and we have so many of our non-work social commitments. Were the four-day workweek to be mass adopted, I would hope we as a society would be smart enough to not all choose the same four days.
Yes, it would not be good if the same four days were selected. The third day should be free-ranging, because then everyone else is out too, which is irritating!
We all know it's going to be friday. That's already the most quiet day where I live.
If Science can make those capitalist bosses accept this as fact, and actually introduce it, that would be a greater achievement.
> If Science can make those capitalist bosses accept this as fact, and actually introduce it, that would be a greater achievement.
Prove that more work can be done in 4 days a week than 5 days a week, and managers will be convinced.
In other words: it won't happen.
More work doesn't need to be done, the same amount needs to be done in 4 days as in 5. Saying this, some careers, including my own, the more tired I am and less rested mentally and physically, the slower work gets done, to the point where it's not feasible to do it sometimes as it's very much thinking based and tiredness can hamper that greatly. Therefore more rest allows me to actually overall be more productive over the course of a working week.
How is that 80 hour workweek going for Japan?
It is all culture no science.
Ask Greeks for their work week. ;)
I miss the old definition of science
pseudolus
>The study, reported in Nature Human Behaviour, was designed to test the effects of the four-day workweek with no reduction in pay.
>The researchers compared work and health-related indicators – including burnout, job satisfaction, and mental and physical health – before and after the intervention using survey data.
so they surveyed people after having them work less about whether or not they liked working less and getting paid the same? wow thats pretty compelling stuff there. maybe we could see if a 1 day work week "RULES" next
I work 5 days a week and I like my work. But my feeling is that it is too much. My job is demanding enough thst I can't really do a lot on workdays that isn't work related. On saturday I have to do my private shit (cleaning, other chores) which leaves sunday for my real interest stuff. On Monday I am rarely truly rested.
I am pretty sure that is neither in my, nor my employers interest. Since my work quality goes down if I am fatigued. If things continue like this I am going into a burn out and then good luck to them. A 4-day week would be interesting because then I'd have at least a chance to get rest over the weekend.