This object makes sense to me only if, even if there is a display, which is fundamentally different than tracing line with the CRT raster, at least that original process is simulated. If the lines buffer is rendered just with a line drawing algorithm where the line is uniform, I kinda fail to see the point of emulating an object like that. Sure, still kinda a nice gadget, but... And, the ESP32 inside tells me that it is hardly a physical simulation of the CRT reactive surface and the electrons beam. The point of this device was the way the lines were traced without the help of the main CPU of the device, and in a way where pixels didn't make any sense at all. They are lines at the lower of the levels. Failing to do that in the emulation is kinda betraying the device.
This object makes sense to me only if, even if there is a
display, which is fundamentally different than tracing line
with the CRT raster, at least that original process is simulated.
Yes to all of that, but also, I think a raster display of sufficiently high DPI can simulate a vector display very well, if and only if they pay attention to the right things. A vector display is visually unique for a few reasons.
- The lines themselves which are honestly the easiest part to fake if the DPI is high enough, past the point of visual distinction.
- The "bloom" or "glow" (phosphor bleed, or whatever the right term is) around the lines
- The temporal effects caused by the screen phosphor continuing to glow even after the beam no longer hits them. The most obvious example is the "streak" left behind the ultra-bright moving bullets in Asteroids which looks absolutely awesome
I have seen incredible examples of vector/CRT emulation when people get creative with RetroArch (or whatever) GPU powered shaders.The only things that emulation can't match (for me) are input latency and the magic of knowing that the process of creating the image is "real" and not "faked."
> "the console features a built-in 5-inch AMOLED display with a resolution of 800×600, delivering sharp and bright vector graphics"
So ... NOT vector graphics. Rasterized bitmap versions of vector graphics.
EDIT: Sorry, I'm not saying this isn't cool. I know rasterizing a vector to a sharp bitmapped display can still allow effects to simulate continuously drawn vector artifacts e.g. thin lines, thicker at vertices, refresh, flicker, etc.
Nothing matches the pinpoint of light dancing around that Vectrex provides. I'm not sure it's feasible to sell something based on vector graphics like Vectrex did, but it would be way cooler!
Yeah, not really the same. I had a really really complete Vectrex setup, every game (even the stupid ones :-)) AND their overlays, I'm pretty sure every accessory. Which I ended up selling to a guy doing a museum?[1] Anyway it was quite the game for me. I knew eventually it would stop working and then just be a memory but still.
The screen was what really made it, and I get that having a vector scope manufactured would be expensive (it isn't true that nobody makes CRTs any more, but it is true that they don't come cheaply). Its also the reason I never really went all the way and bought one of my all time favorite arcade games which was the cockpit version of 'Star Wars' with its color vector display. (even harder to store!)
In a related effort, I looked at replicating a CRT "look" for some older test equipment that came with CRTs using a high dpi IPS display. I probably could have succeeded if I had an FPGA for doing the phosphor simulation (I developed a lot of respect for Tektronix's DPO technology and their patent portfolio on same :-). Very much a diminishing returns kind of thing.
[1] If you're that guy and reading this say "hi" :-)
I wonder if an FPGA is still necessary. 4k/8k are running way over 60 fps these days. Presumably a gpu could do a decent job emulating the phosphor.
In related news, atari 2600 emulators are keeping 4-8 cores > 50% busy these days. How else do you get accurate ntsc “red blur”, and capacitor effects from blinking pixels?
This is the opposite of what I'd want. Give me an actual vector display, and double the screen size. This is just going to provide an experience like myriad chinese handheld emulators.
We still get cathode ray oscilloscopes. Apparently the og has a grid screen. Wonder what it costs to get a CRT maker to get custom dimensions, phosphor colors, curvature etc?
AliExpress has these 4-inch "flat CRTs" that look like they scan the vertical axis onto a sort of parabolic screen. I've thought about playing with one, but decided I don't want to risk shocking myself for a tiny distorted image. Still have no idea for which application they're intended.
I suppose you could even point that at a screen with phosphors on it for a more CRT-like effect. (Maybe you'd need a different kind of phosphor since you'd be exciting it with visible light rather than with an electron beam, though.)
Do we? I was under the impression that CRTs were not being manufactured anywhere anymore. I could definitely be wrong, but I couldn't find anything with a quick search.
But they're only building them for specialty niche military and industrial applications (e.g., replacement parts for old fighter jet HUDs). You could ask them about building one for your SNES setup or old arcade machine, but it'll cost you call-for-pricing dollars (tens or hundreds of thousands, perhaps?)
interesting! Somehow it doesn't seem those are at fidelity what sony was producing, since it doesn't need to be - requirements are different. Maybe we can have US army order a few for us SNES guys, since they're also SNES guys? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-purpose_Arcade_Combat_Si...
Reminds me of how the actual Marines modified Doom with realistic weapons, locations, and enemies to turn it into a simulator for drilling fireteam tactics:
It's funny that you don't really get an impression of what this is all about on the front page. I don't know what a Vectrex is, and I'm confused. Something with games I guess.
Yeah, maybe you're expected to be of a certain age or into retro underdog gaming systems? It was upvoted to the front page so…
Yeah, Vectrex was a vector gaming platform (as opposed to bitmap) that came and went in the 80's. Vector arcade games were a kind of niche anyway — like "Asteroids", "Battlezone", "Tempest" and a Star Wars game. But they were also kind of magical. The Vectrex captured that.
Vectrex was an old game console with an integral CRT, famous for the "vector scan" CRT it used.
Basically the only new principle involved is that instead of cathode ray beams always scanning on a fixed rectangular pattern, the X and Y deflection amounts were provided by the game to move around the singular dot to desired locations.
It's crisp as waving around a laser pointer. Some people like that aesthetics.
On the Vectrex you could only draw lines between 256 x 256 grid points, so in theory 800 x 600 with antialiasing would be enough. But dunno if it would have the same contrast, OLED is as good as you can get I guess.
Not really. One of the advantages of vector displays is the fact that the drawn lines are razor sharp with zero aliasing. Another is the fact that the hardware has very fine control over the brightness, allowing for very bright or very dim lines to be drawn. The bright ones are brighter than could be replicated with raster CRT displays, and combined with slow-decay phosphors made for some beautiful "trail" effects. A pixelated display of any sort can only yield a rough approximation at best.
I saw the prototype at gamescom, too. I was there with a friend. When we noticed that it was not a true vector display, we were both bewildered. What's the point?
> The Vectrex Mini captures the full spirit of the original Vectrex [...] AMOLED display with a resolution of 800×600
I played many hours on a Vectrex, and I'd say that the true vector graphics was the spirit.
If this project is able to capture that spirit in 800x600 AMOLED, that will be very impressive, and I will be curious how they did it.
Edit: The Vectrex was a nice piece of creative engineering, within the constraints and opportunities of the time, on a wonderful product. I suppose (if you look at the comments here) it's difficult to make an homage to such a beloved thing, and hit the best notes in how you reveal it. This Mini looks impressive, and hopefully recaptures some of the magic.
At least they went with OLED, which is as close as you can get with technology that's still in mass production. It would be a crime to use LCD for this.
My friend had one of these when we were little kids and I remember being impressed by how smooth and high-quality the joystick felt. This was mid-80s so maybe it’s because the competition was lacking.
Also, I’m pretty sure this was the only Vectrex within ~40,000km^2 of where I grew up.
I would pay a LOT for a true vector display, and I would pay even more than that for a vector display systems that can play faithful recastings of Tempest and Asteroids.
I can already play vector games on rasterized displays. I don't need an injection molded cabinet.
I guess for Nostalgia? I hadn't heard of this machine before at all. It doesn't look like the games would be that appealing either. I guess I did buy the mini SNES even though it has similar issues.
This object makes sense to me only if, even if there is a display, which is fundamentally different than tracing line with the CRT raster, at least that original process is simulated. If the lines buffer is rendered just with a line drawing algorithm where the line is uniform, I kinda fail to see the point of emulating an object like that. Sure, still kinda a nice gadget, but... And, the ESP32 inside tells me that it is hardly a physical simulation of the CRT reactive surface and the electrons beam. The point of this device was the way the lines were traced without the help of the main CPU of the device, and in a way where pixels didn't make any sense at all. They are lines at the lower of the levels. Failing to do that in the emulation is kinda betraying the device.
- The lines themselves which are honestly the easiest part to fake if the DPI is high enough, past the point of visual distinction.
- The "bloom" or "glow" (phosphor bleed, or whatever the right term is) around the lines
- The temporal effects caused by the screen phosphor continuing to glow even after the beam no longer hits them. The most obvious example is the "streak" left behind the ultra-bright moving bullets in Asteroids which looks absolutely awesome
I have seen incredible examples of vector/CRT emulation when people get creative with RetroArch (or whatever) GPU powered shaders.The only things that emulation can't match (for me) are input latency and the magic of knowing that the process of creating the image is "real" and not "faked."
> "the console features a built-in 5-inch AMOLED display with a resolution of 800×600, delivering sharp and bright vector graphics"
So ... NOT vector graphics. Rasterized bitmap versions of vector graphics.
EDIT: Sorry, I'm not saying this isn't cool. I know rasterizing a vector to a sharp bitmapped display can still allow effects to simulate continuously drawn vector artifacts e.g. thin lines, thicker at vertices, refresh, flicker, etc.
I feel like a higher resolution OLED would serve this much better.
I have a working Vectrex I found on the street 12 years ago sitting in my living room.
Nothing matches the pinpoint of light dancing around that Vectrex provides. I'm not sure it's feasible to sell something based on vector graphics like Vectrex did, but it would be way cooler!
Yeah, not really the same. I had a really really complete Vectrex setup, every game (even the stupid ones :-)) AND their overlays, I'm pretty sure every accessory. Which I ended up selling to a guy doing a museum?[1] Anyway it was quite the game for me. I knew eventually it would stop working and then just be a memory but still.
The screen was what really made it, and I get that having a vector scope manufactured would be expensive (it isn't true that nobody makes CRTs any more, but it is true that they don't come cheaply). Its also the reason I never really went all the way and bought one of my all time favorite arcade games which was the cockpit version of 'Star Wars' with its color vector display. (even harder to store!)
In a related effort, I looked at replicating a CRT "look" for some older test equipment that came with CRTs using a high dpi IPS display. I probably could have succeeded if I had an FPGA for doing the phosphor simulation (I developed a lot of respect for Tektronix's DPO technology and their patent portfolio on same :-). Very much a diminishing returns kind of thing.
[1] If you're that guy and reading this say "hi" :-)
I wonder if an FPGA is still necessary. 4k/8k are running way over 60 fps these days. Presumably a gpu could do a decent job emulating the phosphor.
In related news, atari 2600 emulators are keeping 4-8 cores > 50% busy these days. How else do you get accurate ntsc “red blur”, and capacitor effects from blinking pixels?
This is the opposite of what I'd want. Give me an actual vector display, and double the screen size. This is just going to provide an experience like myriad chinese handheld emulators.
We still get cathode ray oscilloscopes. Apparently the og has a grid screen. Wonder what it costs to get a CRT maker to get custom dimensions, phosphor colors, curvature etc?
AliExpress has these 4-inch "flat CRTs" that look like they scan the vertical axis onto a sort of parabolic screen. I've thought about playing with one, but decided I don't want to risk shocking myself for a tiny distorted image. Still have no idea for which application they're intended.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/3256805660504572.html
Those were used in a lot of doorbell cameras until 2010s, then replaced by LCDs.
Alternatively, apparently you can make a true vector display by steering a laser.
Here's a DIY example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdo3djJrw9o
I suppose you could even point that at a screen with phosphors on it for a more CRT-like effect. (Maybe you'd need a different kind of phosphor since you'd be exciting it with visible light rather than with an electron beam, though.)
> We still get cathode ray oscilloscopes
Do we? I was under the impression that CRTs were not being manufactured anywhere anymore. I could definitely be wrong, but I couldn't find anything with a quick search.
Are there any CRT manufacturers left?
I have a brilliant idea. Let's bring manufacturing back to America, but let's exclusively build "vintage" technology.
Thing is, probably a ton of manufacturing gotchas and even know-hows of technologies of ye olde are already lost to time.
Yes.
https://www.thomaselectronics.com/
But they're only building them for specialty niche military and industrial applications (e.g., replacement parts for old fighter jet HUDs). You could ask them about building one for your SNES setup or old arcade machine, but it'll cost you call-for-pricing dollars (tens or hundreds of thousands, perhaps?)
interesting! Somehow it doesn't seem those are at fidelity what sony was producing, since it doesn't need to be - requirements are different. Maybe we can have US army order a few for us SNES guys, since they're also SNES guys? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-purpose_Arcade_Combat_Si...
Reminds me of how the actual Marines modified Doom with realistic weapons, locations, and enemies to turn it into a simulator for drilling fireteam tactics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Doom
Agree. I'm disappointed.
> Experience the spirit of the original Vectrex in a modern, compact format.
Emphasis on "spirit" I guess? Without the vector display it's an emulator in an (admittedly) handsome enclosure.
A modern version of a device with one unique feature... missing that unique feature
It's funny that you don't really get an impression of what this is all about on the front page. I don't know what a Vectrex is, and I'm confused. Something with games I guess.
Yeah, maybe you're expected to be of a certain age or into retro underdog gaming systems? It was upvoted to the front page so…
Yeah, Vectrex was a vector gaming platform (as opposed to bitmap) that came and went in the 80's. Vector arcade games were a kind of niche anyway — like "Asteroids", "Battlezone", "Tempest" and a Star Wars game. But they were also kind of magical. The Vectrex captured that.
Vectrex was an old game console with an integral CRT, famous for the "vector scan" CRT it used.
Basically the only new principle involved is that instead of cathode ray beams always scanning on a fixed rectangular pattern, the X and Y deflection amounts were provided by the game to move around the singular dot to desired locations.
It's crisp as waving around a laser pointer. Some people like that aesthetics.
I played a prototype version of it at gamescom. It's pretty good. The graphics look good enough to emulate the original display technology.
Doesn't seem high enough resolution.
On the Vectrex you could only draw lines between 256 x 256 grid points, so in theory 800 x 600 with antialiasing would be enough. But dunno if it would have the same contrast, OLED is as good as you can get I guess.
Not really. One of the advantages of vector displays is the fact that the drawn lines are razor sharp with zero aliasing. Another is the fact that the hardware has very fine control over the brightness, allowing for very bright or very dim lines to be drawn. The bright ones are brighter than could be replicated with raster CRT displays, and combined with slow-decay phosphors made for some beautiful "trail" effects. A pixelated display of any sort can only yield a rough approximation at best.
I saw the prototype at gamescom, too. I was there with a friend. When we noticed that it was not a true vector display, we were both bewildered. What's the point?
> The Vectrex Mini captures the full spirit of the original Vectrex [...] AMOLED display with a resolution of 800×600
I played many hours on a Vectrex, and I'd say that the true vector graphics was the spirit.
If this project is able to capture that spirit in 800x600 AMOLED, that will be very impressive, and I will be curious how they did it.
Edit: The Vectrex was a nice piece of creative engineering, within the constraints and opportunities of the time, on a wonderful product. I suppose (if you look at the comments here) it's difficult to make an homage to such a beloved thing, and hit the best notes in how you reveal it. This Mini looks impressive, and hopefully recaptures some of the magic.
Having seen a real one in action it seems kinda pointless without it having a true vector display.
Interesting, but a Vectrex without a vector display is like a fish without water.
At least they went with OLED, which is as close as you can get with technology that's still in mass production. It would be a crime to use LCD for this.
My friend had one of these when we were little kids and I remember being impressed by how smooth and high-quality the joystick felt. This was mid-80s so maybe it’s because the competition was lacking.
Also, I’m pretty sure this was the only Vectrex within ~40,000km^2 of where I grew up.
I thought this was going to be about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBVmCFS2sYs where someone built a miniature handheld Vectrex with a real CRT.
Synthetic Vectrex!
As a kid, i had the 3D goggles. The rollercoaster simulation was pretty good!
see also https://github.com/schlae/scopetrex with the plan to build a clone.
You need a XY Monitor - https://jmargolin.com/xy/xymon.htm
or if you have a normal CRT, you can add the XY kit: https://www.retrorgb.com/vector-monitor-xy-kit.html
<scans description for display technology>
AMOLED
<closes tab>
I would pay a LOT for a true vector display, and I would pay even more than that for a vector display systems that can play faithful recastings of Tempest and Asteroids.
I can already play vector games on rasterized displays. I don't need an injection molded cabinet.
Probably impractical to source a viable CRT these days, but still a bit disappointing they couldn't use one
X, Y voltage (greyscale) output would allow you to attach an external oscilloscope.
That's the way to do it as a DIY version.
Logo on the box looks like "Vootrix"
I guess for Nostalgia? I hadn't heard of this machine before at all. It doesn't look like the games would be that appealing either. I guess I did buy the mini SNES even though it has similar issues.