Since we're throwing around anecdotes. I quit coffee for two years to help with anxiety. It did help with that, but there were zero other benefits, and the significant downside of not having something tasty to sip on.
After the first few weeks I didn't feel groggy in the morning without the coffee, but I definitely wasn't feeling any more rested. It didn't help me get to sleep any easier either. It also didn't help me get going in the morning any faster.
It did have some benefit to anxiety, but after I improved the original source of that anxiety (work related) I eventually went back to having coffee again simply because I really enjoy the flavour.
I'm like 100% a rat pulling levers now that I'm vaping 0% nicotine and drinking decaf in the morning. If they start ringing bells before lunch I'm done for.
As an alternative perspective I found no good decaf coffee. I tried maybe 8 different coffees, all very well regarded, very hipster, none came close to creating good pour-over coffee. I admit it’s all about expectations but if you’re currently enjoying pretty fancy coffee and want to go decaf you’re going to be disappointed. Decaf black tea was even worse…
Why not both! Delicious caffeinated in the morning, less-delicious-but-still-quite-nice decaf after 12:00. You don’t need to go entirely caffeine-free to enjoy most of the benefits.
You're right in that there is much less variety amongst decaf coffee options, but there are a few good single origins out there.
BlendIn's Los Nogales typica is outstanding. It's the bean that convinced me to go full-decaf two years ago. (I drink caffeinated coffee now.)
Manhattan Coffee Roasters also has El Vergel, which is a good single origin with a dark, chocolatey taste profile. Great as a pour-over or as an espresso.
One Line Coffee in Columbus, OH also has a great decaf single origin. They deliver!
But, yeah, most decaf options are meh at best and pretty bad on average. Starbucks, of all places, has a reliable decaf roast that's alright and consistent.
There is great decaff out there but the choice is nevertheless limited compared to caff and the processing (ethyl acetate, supercritical CO2, swiss water) causes flavour changes which mean that you won't get the same range of flavours as you will with caff. Although ethyl acetate causes some unique positive changes (IMO) so there is that.
Not much in the article itself. Basic summary:
* Getting to sleep on time more often and waking up in the mornings feeling rested
* Don't need caffeine to start doing things (no zombie feel)
* Less anxiety and easier to enter a focus session
Very much this. I realized I got worse sleep quality (even though I fell asleep and stayed asleep fine) when I drank coffee too close to going to sleep. Keeping my coffee intake to >~10 hours prior to sleeping seems to negate this.
And the new and unexpected benefit which manifested after 10 months is just that second bullet, Don't need caffeine to start doing things (no zombie feel).
Yeah caffeine doesn't stay in the body all that long. If you stop all intake it will basically all be metabolized or eliminated within 24 hours. For most people, the effects diminish earlier than that, usually from 6-12 hours. It's not something that requires a long detox period. If you want to quit and are getting headaches, take an aspirin/tylenol/advil (check that they don't contain caffeine!) and drink plenty of water. I've found the headaches pass after a day or two.
The important rule is that this works for you, but everyone has to discover their own rules.
Most days, I drink 5 to 7 expressos, though there are days I don't drink any coffee, e.g. when not at home. I often drink one (sometimes two) expressos in the hour before going to bed. I'm almost always asleep in a couple of minutes after switching off the lights.
Is a reasonable rule, I'd replace a specific time with $YOUR_TIME which you probably have to experiment to find, seems to differ a lot per person. My time is 18:00, any later and sleep is screwed, 17:45 seems fine.
It can also change throughout your life. I used to be fine if I stuck to 16:00. But now for whatever reason if I drink caffeine after 10:00 it affects my sleep.
Only slightly related, but I've found that traditionally brewed coffee and espresso give me a ton of anxiety. Tea, energy drinks, and even cold brew don't give me nearly the same level of anxiety. Any hypotheses on what might be going on? This has been an unsolved mystery in my life...
Probably caffeine. You might have looked this up and found that cold brew generally has more caffeine than these other types of coffee (although, "traditional" is awfully vague). Keep in mind, different drinks have different levels of caffeine, especially if you're making them yourself. For example, you could be drinking particularly strong or particularly large "traditionally" brewed coffee/espresso relative to the other options.
I found the same thing with aeropress. I can drink coffee all day, and have the occasional Americano no problem, but twice had a shot from an aeropress over ice and it gave me awful anxiety attacks both times.
Interestingly, cold brew makes me a bit anxious but doesn't really satisfy the caffeine craving the way a traditional cup of coffee does.
> Interestingly, cold brew makes me a bit anxious but doesn't really satisfy the caffeine craving the way a traditional cup of coffee does.
Same, it gives me all the physical anxiety of coffee without any of the mental benefits - I don't understand how it's taken such a large share of coffee drinkers by storm!
All other things being equal, immersion brewing, including aeropress, cold brew, French press, hario switch, etc., leads to a drink with more caffeine than other brewing methods.
Aeropress has much more in common with espresso than cold brew or French press, as the immersion step doesn't last very long (based on how it was made for me).
In fact, cold press is pretty much the only outlier here. Caffeine is highly soluble in water, and the low temperature is the only thing slowing the extraction process down in a cold brew. In all of the other examples, the caffeine is mostly (though admittedly not entirely) extracted before most of the flavors are.
Theanine is calming. For example, pure theanine and magnesium are the only two substances Huberman recommends as sleep aids.
There is a minor complication in which if the brain is in a very stimulated state, then theanine can add to the stimulation, but that has happened to me only once in hundreds of times of my using theanine at bed time, and is extremely unlikely to recur now that I know about the complication.
Apparently, coffee contains compounds other than caffiene, that cause gastric acid secretion: tryptamides and catechols.
“Espresso and French press both tend to extract higher concentrations of tryptamides,” Sebastian says. “Meanwhile, tryptamide concentrations in filter coffee are usually quite low because they are absorbed by the paper filter.
“However, tryptamides are only some of the compounds which contribute to the increased secretion of gastric acid,” he adds. “In our research, we are also analysing the effect of chlorogenic acids [on the stomach], but more evidence needs to be gathered.”
That's quite typical. Given that raw caffeine feels closer to tea than coffee, I'd exclude theanine as a reason for the perceived differences. More likely, it's any of the hundreds of other molecules in coffee, such as MAO inhibitors.
Yeah, the difference is naturally occurring L-theanine.
Energy drinks like Monster add it in to prevent the "jittery" feeling that is associated with coffee. Teas like assam and mate have l-theanine, but I'm not sure about cold brew - maybe it allows for more extraction with the longer brew time?
Some nootropic-minded folks supplement with powdered l-theanine for this reason.
Interesting how "quitting coffee" makes it up the rounds, and pretty much all the discussion perceives "quitting is good," -- but there's quite a bit of at least plausible evidence, both modern scientific as well as really old school, that suggest that coffee is really good for you?
You can frame anything as being good for you if you search for reasons and ignore any downsides:
- "Coffee reduces risk of developing Parkinson's"
- "Wine helps reduce heart disease"
- "Nicotine stimulates cognitive function"
Like many other drugs, caffeine has some upsides, but also some pretty significant downsides (its dependency-forming properties being one of the big ones).
And since this is HN, adding new dependencies to your life seems analogous to code: Introducing new dependencies to your repo should be done thoughtfully and carefully. Sometimes the pros outweigh the cons (the dependency does something that would save you a ton of work), but there are usually downsides to taking on dependencies as well (increased security liability, relinquished control over part of your stack, more build complexity, slower builds, etc)
> It strongly suggests against, e.g. the covid vaccine.
Is that why the analogy is bad? In other words, if a line of reasoning leads you away from the covid shot, then that line of reasoning must be flawed (horrifically, even)?
From the data I've seen I'd take it as far as if you're not drinking coffee and you care about improving your health, you should really consider starting
The main downside is it effecting your sleep, which for most people can be controlled by not having it after a certain time
It seems that coffee has a health benefit for preventing gout. Gout used to be quite a common health problem in the past, and apparently coffee may offer some protection.
Again, I'm very very comfortable with. Wait -- millions of people have been drinking coffee daily FOR YEARS, with VERY FEW visibly super-harmful side effects.
That data is as good as, or perhaps better than, modern medical data -- which ITSELF cuts both ways.
Go to bed EARLY. No caffeine after 1500 hrs. Front load your liquids to limit getting up during the night. Then when
The alarm goes off, get your ass up!
I'll bite. Never did I ever meet anyone in the military that needed "two hours" to fall asleep when they had adequate physical exercise throughout the day.
If you're undiagnosed by a clinical physician for a disorder and have that issue, you're either sleeping too much, consuming too many stimulants, or not getting enough physical exercise.
Then why are you speaking to this particular case? Having a sleep disorder is not an immediate disqualifier for service, either. Did you serve in the military, or are you just throwing out more conjecture?
Well backed RCTs have generally shown >95% of sleep issues are solvable, with sleep hygiene (this means using your bed only for sleep and sex, keeping your room dark and quiet eg no blinking leds, and getting up and getting light exposure if you don't fall asleep in 20 mins) resolving ~70% of cases. Anxiety treatments resolved most of the rest.
You could be in that last 5%! But that is extremely unlikely.
Cut caffeine and alcohol entirely, turn off lamps and hide your phone two hours before bed, read a paper book or write in a paper journal.
Quitting coffee was a really bad experience for me.
I had what felt like withdrawal symptoms: a strong headache, muscle aches, and I was really cold. It lasted for two days, until I took a minuscule sip and everything went away within five minutes.
That made me realize the extent to which I was actually addicted, and how dependent my body was on it.
I managed to quit and stayed caffeine-free for about a year.
But one day I said, “Just one cup won’t hurt,” and oh boy... it was like having superpowers. I was so focused, so wide awake. Of course, I’m an addict again. :(
An important point is that caffeine is a drug, and like any drug should be used for a desired purpose. If you’re going to need that extra focus, then use it. Other days you might not. Make a conscious choice about it.
I gave up coffee with caffeine about 4 months ago. I still have the occasional decaf but it’s like drinking alcohol free beer, you drink very differently when you don’t get a high. My instinct is that stimulants are just not a good idea if you want balance.
It irks me that caffeine free diet drinks have disappeared. Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi, and Diet Dr. Pepper used to come in caffeine free versions. But those were dropped to free up shelf space for new variants.
I think you've probably got to pester your local bottler and see if there are any retailers that stock it, or if you can special order it (possibly through a patient retailer). I've seen HFCS Coke and Pepsi available without caffeine as well, although less frequently, I can find some product listings but none with availability. In my (wide) area, it looks like Target has Diet Pepsi without caffeine in some stores, and diet coke without caffeine in more.
Interesting for me it's the opposite. Since they haven't fully disappeared I get one whenever it's available. Next too it a zero is far too sweet and a normal one is gross.
Talk about coffee is always skewed between I have no issues and a single drop after lunch ruins my night.
Caffeines half life in the body is strongly tied to age. As you get older, the half life gets so long you cannot metabolize a normal dose in 24hours. That is why people over a certain age often drink decaf.
So just because you can drink 5 cups a day at 25 doesn't mean it's the same at 65, or even 35.
Are you simply describing the slowing of metabolism for everything consumed, or stating caffeine itself is metabolized slower with age? Curious about a source for the latter.
For a long time I was compromising with no caffeine after 13:00 rule, but recently I have cut it out entirely and found large benefits in sleep quality and how rested I feel in the mornings. I still love coffee, so I have switched to mountain water decaf and roobois tea which is naturally decaffeinated.
I might be failing at reading comprehension, but after reading this short article several times, I still don't know what the "unexpected benefit" is.
The first couple paragraphs list (1) regular sleep schedule and feeling more rested, (2) "no zombie feel" first thing in the morning, and (3) less anxiety. And then it says "I still feel these benefits are true but I've also discovered a new one."
So what's the new one?
The rest of the article seems to discuss #2 again -- that the author can wake up and be productive without the kick-start of coffee.
Is there something I'm still missing in the rest of the article? (Yes, I've had my coffee today.)
Some people are more sensitive than others but I’ve found no sleep issues from morning coffee, i just don’t have any after 10am roughly. If coffee is keeping you awake at night and then it doesn’t then obviously this is a benefit. I don’t think this would be “unexpected” for anyone.
I can drink three coffee cups at midnight and sleep well. It doesn't even make me feel more awake in the morning. Nothing. Apparently I'm immune.
I drink coffee especially in the form of cappuccino (the Italian one, in case the name is shared by many different drinks) and I could quit at any time, but I like it so I won't.
Finally! A topic that I can directly contribute to!
I quit caffeinated coffee two years ago. A roaster nearby me came out with a decaf single origin that was so good, it not only convinced me that I don't need caf'ed coffee anymore, but it also won the 2024 US Brewers Cup.
During that time, I was also changing my sleep schedule as part of CBTi therapy I was undergoing to fix (or, more accurately, quell) a bout of sleep insomnia. The schedule was "wake up at 05:00 every day, including weekends and holidays."
The standard two weeks of caffeine "hangover" were pretty brutal, but the sleep improvements and lessen jitter were indisputable.
What was equally indisputable were my pronounced bouts of sadness/despair and, consequently, my strengthened desire to be alone. (I, like our cats, tend to want to be alone when something's wrong.) My drive and motivation to work also nosedived. Getting into anything, especially anything mundane, was a real challenge, even after changing my work environment and morning routine.
My ability to even _think_ was compromised. Putting together sentences and recalling phrases was harder. (The ability to do my job, motivation notwithstanding, wasn't affected, though.)
======
A new Saturday morning routine helped me connect the dots.
One of my favorite coffee shops opened up in my town recently. They have this coffee drink that is just the absolute best, and the shop itself is very cozy and great for reading. It was only natural that I'd eventually start my Saturday and, now, Sunday mornings there.
That coffee drink is caffeinated, and they didn't have a decaf option. I didn't care. Like the decaf bean that got me started on this whole kick, this was the only drink that I'd make an exception for.
Without fail, I'd be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON about 20-30 minutes after finishing that drink.
Happier. Much happier. Talkative. Eager to work. Basically I'd become my old self again.
A shot of espresso did the same thing. It kept me sharp on long road trips and was (is) a fantastic pre-workout for my two hour heavy lifting days.
Coffee basically masked what, I now think, are symptoms of a minor depression. Which adds up: my work experience post-COVID is much worse than it was pre-COVID, the proliferation of AI has really taken a toll on me, and lots of stuff about the world just _feels_ worse.
I now drink caffeine sparingly with tapered draw downs, i.e. 2 cups on Monday, 1 on Tuesday, none on Wednesday and Thursday, 1 on Friday and 2 on Saturday and Sunday. I'm also selective about how I get my caffeine. I don't want to lose the sharpening effect it has or get dependent enough on it to need mountains of the stuff to chase the same benefits. (I know that my baseline will increase, since that's how drugs work.) Like other posters have said, I avoid caffeiene after 14:00, though I'll break this rule if I'm going to be out late, as caffeine has a ~6hr half-life.
Nonetheless, I'm really thankful for the two years of abstinence from it, as it finally convinced me that therapy for _just this_ might be worthwhile.
(My sleep has remained much improved. I no longer get up at 05:00 --- I am 10,000% convinced that I am NOT a morning person --- but I haven't had nearly as much trouble falling and staying asleep. CBTi helped tons, and I recommend it to anyone and everyone struggling with sleep --- after getting a sleep study, of course!)
I quit drinking coffee a little over two years ago. I had a pretty strong addiction to it. I've got a Moccamaster that happily brews 10 cups and was drinking it 16oz at a time. There were plenty of days where I would need to run the Moccamaster multiple times. That said, it's tough to know exactly how much caffeine you're getting because there's a lot of variance in steep time, so YMMV. Coffee that I'd buy at a cafe definitely hit harder than what I was drinking at home.
I eventually went from drinking coffee, to measuring my caffeine intake with 100mg caffeine pills + decaf coffee for the routine, to green tea which said it was 50mg, to 50mg caffeine pills w/ 100mg l-theanine, to white tea which said it was 10mg, to nothing. I did that for about a year before eventually adding a premium green tea brand back into my cupboard, but only drinking it irregularly as well as having 50mg caffeine pills very irregularly.
One negative that went away entirely was armpit sweat. It was really common for me to have completely damp pits throughout the day due to the caffeine.
Another negative that went away was my energy would crash at the end of the day. I felt a bit sequestered into a timebox of when I'd be functional.
One thing I still fight with is cueing myself to "click on and do stuff" in the morning. It definitely gets easier the longer I go without caffeine, or the more structure I have in my day-to-day, but on open-ended days it can still be tough.
Also, if I do take any form of caffeine, my body immediately remembers the addiction and very much so would like to have more caffeine the next day. It seems great in the moment, but then suddenly one morning I wake up groggy, sort of like I'm hungover, and I'm like, "Oh yeah. This is what I stopped feeling and enjoyed, I remember now." and try to get myself back off of it. It only takes a few days for this to happen even at 50mg/day doses. This isn't entirely surprising because the half-life of caffeine is 8 hours, so 50mg/day builds up inside you at 6.25mg/day.
One positive is that it's really nice to be able to use caffeine in situations where opportunity cost is high rather than being continually reliant on it. I went to a friend's party a couple of weekends ago, we camped outside and stayed up all night, and I needed to pack up my tent the next morning on ~no sleep. Four ounces of coffee was enough for me to feel like a 100% fresh human all day. Super useful.
One negative is that caffeine absolutely fucks up my sleep schedule if I do take it now. It's not uncommon for me to struggle to fall asleep until 3am if I have any caffeine on a normal day unless I go run 7+ miles and drive my body into exhaustion. This includes something as innocuous as a diet coca-cola. (Note that diet soda has more caffeine than regular soda to account for the loss of energy rush from sugar.) I think this might be solvable with even lower mg doses of caffeine pills (like 10mg), but society is really geared towards marketing large amounts of caffeine to people so you have to be careful.
Overall, I am happy with the change and would like to continue with it, but it feels like a pretty fragile escape from addiction compared to other substances because most days I find myself wishing I was "more of a person" and caffeine tends to make me feel like "more of a person" but only temporarily and with a cost. So there's an internal struggle there. I contrast this with something like quitting marijuana where there's very, very rare days where I'll think, "It would be nice to be stoned!", but 99% of the time I'm just happy to be thinking more clearly.
Since we're throwing around anecdotes. I quit coffee for two years to help with anxiety. It did help with that, but there were zero other benefits, and the significant downside of not having something tasty to sip on.
After the first few weeks I didn't feel groggy in the morning without the coffee, but I definitely wasn't feeling any more rested. It didn't help me get to sleep any easier either. It also didn't help me get going in the morning any faster.
It did have some benefit to anxiety, but after I improved the original source of that anxiety (work related) I eventually went back to having coffee again simply because I really enjoy the flavour.
Decaf works great for this.
I'm like 100% a rat pulling levers now that I'm vaping 0% nicotine and drinking decaf in the morning. If they start ringing bells before lunch I'm done for.
As an alternative perspective I found no good decaf coffee. I tried maybe 8 different coffees, all very well regarded, very hipster, none came close to creating good pour-over coffee. I admit it’s all about expectations but if you’re currently enjoying pretty fancy coffee and want to go decaf you’re going to be disappointed. Decaf black tea was even worse…
Why not both! Delicious caffeinated in the morning, less-delicious-but-still-quite-nice decaf after 12:00. You don’t need to go entirely caffeine-free to enjoy most of the benefits.
You're right in that there is much less variety amongst decaf coffee options, but there are a few good single origins out there.
BlendIn's Los Nogales typica is outstanding. It's the bean that convinced me to go full-decaf two years ago. (I drink caffeinated coffee now.)
Manhattan Coffee Roasters also has El Vergel, which is a good single origin with a dark, chocolatey taste profile. Great as a pour-over or as an espresso.
One Line Coffee in Columbus, OH also has a great decaf single origin. They deliver!
But, yeah, most decaf options are meh at best and pretty bad on average. Starbucks, of all places, has a reliable decaf roast that's alright and consistent.
There is great decaff out there but the choice is nevertheless limited compared to caff and the processing (ethyl acetate, supercritical CO2, swiss water) causes flavour changes which mean that you won't get the same range of flavours as you will with caff. Although ethyl acetate causes some unique positive changes (IMO) so there is that.
Yep, I think in year two or so I started having decaf. It was not bad.
All the decafs I tried did not taste as good as the OG.
If you like a hot, bitter drink with roasted notes, roasted dandelion root tea is an incredible, low acid (and good for you) coffee substitute.
Not much in the article itself. Basic summary: * Getting to sleep on time more often and waking up in the mornings feeling rested * Don't need caffeine to start doing things (no zombie feel) * Less anxiety and easier to enter a focus session
FWIW, I got these same benefits from cutting down to one espresso some time before lunch from who knows how many cups of coffee throughout the day.
Very much this. I realized I got worse sleep quality (even though I fell asleep and stayed asleep fine) when I drank coffee too close to going to sleep. Keeping my coffee intake to >~10 hours prior to sleeping seems to negate this.
And the new and unexpected benefit which manifested after 10 months is just that second bullet, Don't need caffeine to start doing things (no zombie feel).
I don't have any sleep issues as long as I stick to a simple rule: No caffeine after 15:00.
Yeah caffeine doesn't stay in the body all that long. If you stop all intake it will basically all be metabolized or eliminated within 24 hours. For most people, the effects diminish earlier than that, usually from 6-12 hours. It's not something that requires a long detox period. If you want to quit and are getting headaches, take an aspirin/tylenol/advil (check that they don't contain caffeine!) and drink plenty of water. I've found the headaches pass after a day or two.
Personal caffeine metabolization rate is partly genetic[0], but can be aided by diet[1].. like mother always said, finish your (brassica) vegetables!
[0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39438936/
[1]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10837004/
your mother used the latin word "brassica?"
I suppose I should have bracketed "brassica" in lieu of parenthesizing it.. pedants unite!
The important rule is that this works for you, but everyone has to discover their own rules.
Most days, I drink 5 to 7 expressos, though there are days I don't drink any coffee, e.g. when not at home. I often drink one (sometimes two) expressos in the hour before going to bed. I'm almost always asleep in a couple of minutes after switching off the lights.
Is a reasonable rule, I'd replace a specific time with $YOUR_TIME which you probably have to experiment to find, seems to differ a lot per person. My time is 18:00, any later and sleep is screwed, 17:45 seems fine.
It can also change throughout your life. I used to be fine if I stuck to 16:00. But now for whatever reason if I drink caffeine after 10:00 it affects my sleep.
Most doc's in the US recommend cutting coffee after 14:00, so you're pretty on the mark.
Ugh, reading this comment at 15:34 with cup of espresso in one hand and phone in the other.
When I was younger it was 1700 for me but now it's 1300. I get up at 0500.
Only slightly related, but I've found that traditionally brewed coffee and espresso give me a ton of anxiety. Tea, energy drinks, and even cold brew don't give me nearly the same level of anxiety. Any hypotheses on what might be going on? This has been an unsolved mystery in my life...
Probably caffeine. You might have looked this up and found that cold brew generally has more caffeine than these other types of coffee (although, "traditional" is awfully vague). Keep in mind, different drinks have different levels of caffeine, especially if you're making them yourself. For example, you could be drinking particularly strong or particularly large "traditionally" brewed coffee/espresso relative to the other options.
I found the same thing with aeropress. I can drink coffee all day, and have the occasional Americano no problem, but twice had a shot from an aeropress over ice and it gave me awful anxiety attacks both times.
Interestingly, cold brew makes me a bit anxious but doesn't really satisfy the caffeine craving the way a traditional cup of coffee does.
YMMV I guess
> Interestingly, cold brew makes me a bit anxious but doesn't really satisfy the caffeine craving the way a traditional cup of coffee does.
Same, it gives me all the physical anxiety of coffee without any of the mental benefits - I don't understand how it's taken such a large share of coffee drinkers by storm!
All other things being equal, immersion brewing, including aeropress, cold brew, French press, hario switch, etc., leads to a drink with more caffeine than other brewing methods.
Aeropress has much more in common with espresso than cold brew or French press, as the immersion step doesn't last very long (based on how it was made for me).
In fact, cold press is pretty much the only outlier here. Caffeine is highly soluble in water, and the low temperature is the only thing slowing the extraction process down in a cold brew. In all of the other examples, the caffeine is mostly (though admittedly not entirely) extracted before most of the flavors are.
Probably L-theanine? It's found naturally in teas and it's not uncommon in energy drinks/preworkouts. I'm not sure about cold brew though.
Theanine is calming. For example, pure theanine and magnesium are the only two substances Huberman recommends as sleep aids.
There is a minor complication in which if the brain is in a very stimulated state, then theanine can add to the stimulation, but that has happened to me only once in hundreds of times of my using theanine at bed time, and is extremely unlikely to recur now that I know about the complication.
Also, coffee does not contain any theanine.
Acidity hitting the stomach?
FWIW, Red Bull is more acidic than your average coffee.
Apparently, coffee contains compounds other than caffiene, that cause gastric acid secretion: tryptamides and catechols.
“Espresso and French press both tend to extract higher concentrations of tryptamides,” Sebastian says. “Meanwhile, tryptamide concentrations in filter coffee are usually quite low because they are absorbed by the paper filter.
“However, tryptamides are only some of the compounds which contribute to the increased secretion of gastric acid,” he adds. “In our research, we are also analysing the effect of chlorogenic acids [on the stomach], but more evidence needs to be gathered.”
https://perfectdailygrind.com/2023/02/can-too-much-coffee-ca...
That's quite typical. Given that raw caffeine feels closer to tea than coffee, I'd exclude theanine as a reason for the perceived differences. More likely, it's any of the hundreds of other molecules in coffee, such as MAO inhibitors.
Yeah, the difference is naturally occurring L-theanine.
Energy drinks like Monster add it in to prevent the "jittery" feeling that is associated with coffee. Teas like assam and mate have l-theanine, but I'm not sure about cold brew - maybe it allows for more extraction with the longer brew time?
Some nootropic-minded folks supplement with powdered l-theanine for this reason.
Interesting how "quitting coffee" makes it up the rounds, and pretty much all the discussion perceives "quitting is good," -- but there's quite a bit of at least plausible evidence, both modern scientific as well as really old school, that suggest that coffee is really good for you?
You can frame anything as being good for you if you search for reasons and ignore any downsides:
- "Coffee reduces risk of developing Parkinson's"
- "Wine helps reduce heart disease"
- "Nicotine stimulates cognitive function"
Like many other drugs, caffeine has some upsides, but also some pretty significant downsides (its dependency-forming properties being one of the big ones).
And since this is HN, adding new dependencies to your life seems analogous to code: Introducing new dependencies to your repo should be done thoughtfully and carefully. Sometimes the pros outweigh the cons (the dependency does something that would save you a ton of work), but there are usually downsides to taking on dependencies as well (increased security liability, relinquished control over part of your stack, more build complexity, slower builds, etc)
Your code analogy is horrifically bad. It strongly suggests against, e.g. the covid vaccine.
> It strongly suggests against, e.g. the covid vaccine.
Is that why the analogy is bad? In other words, if a line of reasoning leads you away from the covid shot, then that line of reasoning must be flawed (horrifically, even)?
From the data I've seen I'd take it as far as if you're not drinking coffee and you care about improving your health, you should really consider starting
The main downside is it effecting your sleep, which for most people can be controlled by not having it after a certain time
It seems that coffee has a health benefit for preventing gout. Gout used to be quite a common health problem in the past, and apparently coffee may offer some protection.
Conflation is very easy to do here. If you are very sick, you probably aren't drinking coffee (it's a mild stomach irritant).
So there is a correlation between coffee and being healthy, but causation is very messy.
In both directions, then.
Again, I'm very very comfortable with. Wait -- millions of people have been drinking coffee daily FOR YEARS, with VERY FEW visibly super-harmful side effects.
That data is as good as, or perhaps better than, modern medical data -- which ITSELF cuts both ways.
Go to bed EARLY. No caffeine after 1500 hrs. Front load your liquids to limit getting up during the night. Then when The alarm goes off, get your ass up!
And STOP having sleep disorders!
Yep. Fuck those of us who take two hours to fall asleep because that's just the way we are. Useless people the lot of us.
eagerly awaiting all the suggestions for why I just need to do X or Y to get to sleep. Definitely haven't tried those!
I'll bite. Never did I ever meet anyone in the military that needed "two hours" to fall asleep when they had adequate physical exercise throughout the day.
If you're undiagnosed by a clinical physician for a disorder and have that issue, you're either sleeping too much, consuming too many stimulants, or not getting enough physical exercise.
What's your exercise routine like?
> Never did I ever meet anyone in the militar
The military disqualifies people with severe sleep disorders..
Nice survivor bias example.
Note, I can't speak to this particular case.
Then why are you speaking to this particular case? Having a sleep disorder is not an immediate disqualifier for service, either. Did you serve in the military, or are you just throwing out more conjecture?
Well backed RCTs have generally shown >95% of sleep issues are solvable, with sleep hygiene (this means using your bed only for sleep and sex, keeping your room dark and quiet eg no blinking leds, and getting up and getting light exposure if you don't fall asleep in 20 mins) resolving ~70% of cases. Anxiety treatments resolved most of the rest.
You could be in that last 5%! But that is extremely unlikely.
Cut caffeine and alcohol entirely, turn off lamps and hide your phone two hours before bed, read a paper book or write in a paper journal.
That's a pretty rude thing to call young children.
Put down your screens several hours before bedtime, pick up a book instead.
and get 30+ minutes of quality exercise (preferably a few hours before bed).
I am so looking forward to my approaching retirement, when I need never again concern myself with your final directive.
Quitting coffee was a really bad experience for me.
I had what felt like withdrawal symptoms: a strong headache, muscle aches, and I was really cold. It lasted for two days, until I took a minuscule sip and everything went away within five minutes.
That made me realize the extent to which I was actually addicted, and how dependent my body was on it.
I managed to quit and stayed caffeine-free for about a year.
But one day I said, “Just one cup won’t hurt,” and oh boy... it was like having superpowers. I was so focused, so wide awake. Of course, I’m an addict again. :(
An important point is that caffeine is a drug, and like any drug should be used for a desired purpose. If you’re going to need that extra focus, then use it. Other days you might not. Make a conscious choice about it.
Why do you even want to quit? Coffee has strong evidence pointing to it having health benefits
I was drinking too much and i started to feel like maybe i had to drop it. But yeah, not quitting again.
Me with cigarettes and heroin.
I gave up coffee with caffeine about 4 months ago. I still have the occasional decaf but it’s like drinking alcohol free beer, you drink very differently when you don’t get a high. My instinct is that stimulants are just not a good idea if you want balance.
It irks me that caffeine free diet drinks have disappeared. Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi, and Diet Dr. Pepper used to come in caffeine free versions. But those were dropped to free up shelf space for new variants.
I think you've probably got to pester your local bottler and see if there are any retailers that stock it, or if you can special order it (possibly through a patient retailer). I've seen HFCS Coke and Pepsi available without caffeine as well, although less frequently, I can find some product listings but none with availability. In my (wide) area, it looks like Target has Diet Pepsi without caffeine in some stores, and diet coke without caffeine in more.
That stuff is awful anyway. I used to drink a lot of diet coke and gave it up. Tastes like insecticide now if I try it.
Interesting for me it's the opposite. Since they haven't fully disappeared I get one whenever it's available. Next too it a zero is far too sweet and a normal one is gross.
Talk about coffee is always skewed between I have no issues and a single drop after lunch ruins my night.
Caffeines half life in the body is strongly tied to age. As you get older, the half life gets so long you cannot metabolize a normal dose in 24hours. That is why people over a certain age often drink decaf.
So just because you can drink 5 cups a day at 25 doesn't mean it's the same at 65, or even 35.
Are you simply describing the slowing of metabolism for everything consumed, or stating caffeine itself is metabolized slower with age? Curious about a source for the latter.
Quitting caffeine has been a no-op for me, but then again, caffeine was a no-op for me prior to that.
Glad it's working out for the author, though!
For a long time I was compromising with no caffeine after 13:00 rule, but recently I have cut it out entirely and found large benefits in sleep quality and how rested I feel in the mornings. I still love coffee, so I have switched to mountain water decaf and roobois tea which is naturally decaffeinated.
I might be failing at reading comprehension, but after reading this short article several times, I still don't know what the "unexpected benefit" is.
The first couple paragraphs list (1) regular sleep schedule and feeling more rested, (2) "no zombie feel" first thing in the morning, and (3) less anxiety. And then it says "I still feel these benefits are true but I've also discovered a new one."
So what's the new one?
The rest of the article seems to discuss #2 again -- that the author can wake up and be productive without the kick-start of coffee.
Is there something I'm still missing in the rest of the article? (Yes, I've had my coffee today.)
Some people are more sensitive than others but I’ve found no sleep issues from morning coffee, i just don’t have any after 10am roughly. If coffee is keeping you awake at night and then it doesn’t then obviously this is a benefit. I don’t think this would be “unexpected” for anyone.
I can drink three coffee cups at midnight and sleep well. It doesn't even make me feel more awake in the morning. Nothing. Apparently I'm immune.
I drink coffee especially in the form of cappuccino (the Italian one, in case the name is shared by many different drinks) and I could quit at any time, but I like it so I won't.
Yeah I'm the same, caffeine doesn't really keep me awake. I think (some) people develop a tolerance for it.
Finally! A topic that I can directly contribute to!
I quit caffeinated coffee two years ago. A roaster nearby me came out with a decaf single origin that was so good, it not only convinced me that I don't need caf'ed coffee anymore, but it also won the 2024 US Brewers Cup.
During that time, I was also changing my sleep schedule as part of CBTi therapy I was undergoing to fix (or, more accurately, quell) a bout of sleep insomnia. The schedule was "wake up at 05:00 every day, including weekends and holidays."
The standard two weeks of caffeine "hangover" were pretty brutal, but the sleep improvements and lessen jitter were indisputable.
What was equally indisputable were my pronounced bouts of sadness/despair and, consequently, my strengthened desire to be alone. (I, like our cats, tend to want to be alone when something's wrong.) My drive and motivation to work also nosedived. Getting into anything, especially anything mundane, was a real challenge, even after changing my work environment and morning routine.
My ability to even _think_ was compromised. Putting together sentences and recalling phrases was harder. (The ability to do my job, motivation notwithstanding, wasn't affected, though.)
======
A new Saturday morning routine helped me connect the dots.
One of my favorite coffee shops opened up in my town recently. They have this coffee drink that is just the absolute best, and the shop itself is very cozy and great for reading. It was only natural that I'd eventually start my Saturday and, now, Sunday mornings there.
That coffee drink is caffeinated, and they didn't have a decaf option. I didn't care. Like the decaf bean that got me started on this whole kick, this was the only drink that I'd make an exception for.
Without fail, I'd be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON about 20-30 minutes after finishing that drink.
Happier. Much happier. Talkative. Eager to work. Basically I'd become my old self again.
A shot of espresso did the same thing. It kept me sharp on long road trips and was (is) a fantastic pre-workout for my two hour heavy lifting days.
Coffee basically masked what, I now think, are symptoms of a minor depression. Which adds up: my work experience post-COVID is much worse than it was pre-COVID, the proliferation of AI has really taken a toll on me, and lots of stuff about the world just _feels_ worse.
I now drink caffeine sparingly with tapered draw downs, i.e. 2 cups on Monday, 1 on Tuesday, none on Wednesday and Thursday, 1 on Friday and 2 on Saturday and Sunday. I'm also selective about how I get my caffeine. I don't want to lose the sharpening effect it has or get dependent enough on it to need mountains of the stuff to chase the same benefits. (I know that my baseline will increase, since that's how drugs work.) Like other posters have said, I avoid caffeiene after 14:00, though I'll break this rule if I'm going to be out late, as caffeine has a ~6hr half-life.
Nonetheless, I'm really thankful for the two years of abstinence from it, as it finally convinced me that therapy for _just this_ might be worthwhile.
(My sleep has remained much improved. I no longer get up at 05:00 --- I am 10,000% convinced that I am NOT a morning person --- but I haven't had nearly as much trouble falling and staying asleep. CBTi helped tons, and I recommend it to anyone and everyone struggling with sleep --- after getting a sleep study, of course!)
Coffee without food really fucks up my stomach. people rarely bring that up. But after years of coffee without food, it can sorta kill your stomach
Now that coffee is hilariously expensive I expect more such stories.
I'll throw in some data, too, cuz why not.
I quit drinking coffee a little over two years ago. I had a pretty strong addiction to it. I've got a Moccamaster that happily brews 10 cups and was drinking it 16oz at a time. There were plenty of days where I would need to run the Moccamaster multiple times. That said, it's tough to know exactly how much caffeine you're getting because there's a lot of variance in steep time, so YMMV. Coffee that I'd buy at a cafe definitely hit harder than what I was drinking at home.
I eventually went from drinking coffee, to measuring my caffeine intake with 100mg caffeine pills + decaf coffee for the routine, to green tea which said it was 50mg, to 50mg caffeine pills w/ 100mg l-theanine, to white tea which said it was 10mg, to nothing. I did that for about a year before eventually adding a premium green tea brand back into my cupboard, but only drinking it irregularly as well as having 50mg caffeine pills very irregularly.
One negative that went away entirely was armpit sweat. It was really common for me to have completely damp pits throughout the day due to the caffeine.
Another negative that went away was my energy would crash at the end of the day. I felt a bit sequestered into a timebox of when I'd be functional.
One thing I still fight with is cueing myself to "click on and do stuff" in the morning. It definitely gets easier the longer I go without caffeine, or the more structure I have in my day-to-day, but on open-ended days it can still be tough.
Also, if I do take any form of caffeine, my body immediately remembers the addiction and very much so would like to have more caffeine the next day. It seems great in the moment, but then suddenly one morning I wake up groggy, sort of like I'm hungover, and I'm like, "Oh yeah. This is what I stopped feeling and enjoyed, I remember now." and try to get myself back off of it. It only takes a few days for this to happen even at 50mg/day doses. This isn't entirely surprising because the half-life of caffeine is 8 hours, so 50mg/day builds up inside you at 6.25mg/day.
One positive is that it's really nice to be able to use caffeine in situations where opportunity cost is high rather than being continually reliant on it. I went to a friend's party a couple of weekends ago, we camped outside and stayed up all night, and I needed to pack up my tent the next morning on ~no sleep. Four ounces of coffee was enough for me to feel like a 100% fresh human all day. Super useful.
One negative is that caffeine absolutely fucks up my sleep schedule if I do take it now. It's not uncommon for me to struggle to fall asleep until 3am if I have any caffeine on a normal day unless I go run 7+ miles and drive my body into exhaustion. This includes something as innocuous as a diet coca-cola. (Note that diet soda has more caffeine than regular soda to account for the loss of energy rush from sugar.) I think this might be solvable with even lower mg doses of caffeine pills (like 10mg), but society is really geared towards marketing large amounts of caffeine to people so you have to be careful.
Overall, I am happy with the change and would like to continue with it, but it feels like a pretty fragile escape from addiction compared to other substances because most days I find myself wishing I was "more of a person" and caffeine tends to make me feel like "more of a person" but only temporarily and with a cost. So there's an internal struggle there. I contrast this with something like quitting marijuana where there's very, very rare days where I'll think, "It would be nice to be stoned!", but 99% of the time I'm just happy to be thinking more clearly.