Anytime a company says it "can't" fill positions, it's because they're not paying enough, they're unwilling to train, or both. One those few things in life that really is that simple.
>Anytime a couple says it "can't" find a house, it's because they're not paying enough, they're unwilling to build it themselves, or both. One those few things in life that really is that simple.
They don't pay a salary at all, so no. Mechanics are flat-rate, which means you get paid a fixed amount for a given task, standardized in terms of hours of labor by some agent like Mitchell 1, and the dealerships frequently cut the hour rating for warranty work, which means mechanics have to work faster on in-warranty cars to break even. This weird-ass billing practice is why I left the field; total comp is much better in IT.
It definitely isn't. Here in Germany I could redirect you to a dozen small businesses in the trades I personally know that are starved for young people and that pay better than a decent chunk of degrees, but vocational and blue collar work even here, and this is in my experience even more common in the Anglosphere, is just deemed unattractive by a significant chunk of the workforce.
It's so bad that I know a handful of people who'd even pass the business on because their own kids didn't want to stay in the trades but go to uni.
Paying better than a decent chunk of degrees isn't enough to be competitive. What are the working conditions? Is it inside with AC at a desk? Is it 8 hours a day 5 days a week? If it's not you have to factor that into total comp. Is your job still competitive with a decent chunk of degrees when you factor in an extra 20k for working conditions?
Trades people like to compare total comp but never talk about working conditions, upward mobility, how much they drive or whether their employer provides their tools.
Dude is out of his gourd if he believes mechanics are making 6 figures without doing crazy overtime. Just because a job posting is advertised up to 6 figures doesn't mean they will actually offer you such a wage. I live in Michigan and am from a family of mechanics and 95% of mechanics never break $100K ever.
He is also extremely ignorant if he thinks it takes 5 years to learn how to take an engine out of a vehicle, people get PhDs in 5 years, and I could teach someone to remove and replace a certain vehicle's motor in a few days at worst including most of the tips and tricks when things don't go smoothly, after a year I would expect them to be able to take out any motor from any vehicle without guidance. Taking a motor out of a vehicle is one of the easier parts of a mechanic's job, the hard part is being able to diagnose problems without tearing the entire motor out before you know it needs to, or figuring out how to fix a problem without tearing apart every nut and bolt on the car per the official repair, especially as a dealership mechanic where you only get paid a set minimum price for each job no matter how long it takes you in reality. Sure a brand new vehicle might have bolts that spin off in 10 seconds, but the crusty rusted out car from Michigan salted roads might require torches to remove it or time to extract a broken bolt, or drilling and tapping and helicoiling a stripped hole. Even if the hourly labor was free, the parts that either MUST be replaced once bolts are pulled and seals broken, or will inevitably be broken in the process of removal no matter how careful you are, still cost money.
Designing a car that is easy to maintain and diagnose is a lot harder than it seems and manufacturers are incentivized to focus on new sales than maintenance.
Well, then we ended up weird designs that expects you take and engine out to change an alternator or estimates that are way off.
It’s quite dishonest that all the problems of the entire sector is being merged into “nobody wants to work anymore” style conversation with a lot of fine prints.
I had a ford and when working on it I realized one thing:
This car was designed to assemble, not to disassemble.
Easiest example: the gray fabric-like panels in the trunk that cover everything? They are attached with small christmas-tree fasteners that mate with holes in the trunk walls. They take maybe 1/4 second to fasten. But to unfasten they take finesse to carefully remove without breaking the fastener.
Cars are like that all the way down. Also, a lot of these types of fasteners are designed to be replaced after you take them apart. But basically no mechanic does that. It's one reason why you have door and other interior panels making squeaking or other vibration noise after your car has been worked on.
Even decent reusable fasteners like screws frequently deserve a little locktite when replacing them and nobody does that.
I tried looking for these on their careers page and I can’t find what he’s talking about. Regardless I don’t think I’d move to Detroit for this. Even if I enjoyed the trade.
He's talking about mechanics in the dealership network, so I looked in five or six major metro areas, and couldn't find a single example of a six-figure job at 40/hours per week. One promised "up to $12,000/month" at $40/hour -- which works out between 70 and 80 hours a week.
I don't think he's got a firm grip on this market.
> “We do not have trade schools,” he said. “We are not investing in educating a next generation of people like my grandfather who had nothing, who built a middle class life and a future for his family.”
So put your money where your mouth is and open your own trade school? If someone as incompetent and corrupt as Falwell can open and operate Liberty University, then why can’t CEO Farley?
Well if what he said is true it wouldn't matter because he would have a school that profits off of training supposedly in-demand skill sets. Unless of course he is lieing and mechanics are paid like garbage but he needs someone to blame for the poor reliability of current Ford vehicles and is angry he can't get more people fixing them despite them often making below the median US wage.
Either he thinks it’s a worthwhile pursuit or he doesn’t.
If his point is that it’s only worthwhile when the public subsidizes the cost, then he’s just yet another rent-seeking millionaire looking to profit off the taxpayer’s dollar at no risk to either himself or Ford.
Mechanics at dealerships or assembly line technicians?
Because there's no way those jobs are 6 figures at the dealerships when automakers and dealers push fixed-fee services and severely underrate the hours required.
> Still, part of the problem for the shortage of manufacturing jobs is the lack of education and training, according to Farley. He noted, for example, learning to take a diesel engine out of a Ford Super Duty truck takes at least five years. The current system is not meeting the standard, he added.
Sounds like Ford's #1 problem is failure to train its engineers, in how to design reasonably maintainable vehicles.
Many modern cars are not designed to be easily worked on. I think the priority is ease/cost of initial assembly, only.
My 2010 Mercedes had headlight bulbs that died frequently. But there was no way for a human to reach in and replace them, without either some special tool or disassembling a bunch of stuff at the front of the car. Just one example. You can find many similar complaints elsewhere.
I had friends that bought a pair of Malibus, those require you to take off the entire front bumper to replace, and even worse they regularly burnt out bulbs and eventually melted the bulb connectors. I was so glad when they got rid of those PoS.
Last maintenance I did on my Volvo was to replace the battery which should be quick for a non-mechanic as myself.
I spent more time building a make shift tool to detach/attach the battery than I did actual work. This due to them placing a bolt really bad so you can't access it with a normal wrench.
Not offering a paid upgrade to a 4G modem for the app features when they kill the 3G network in Sweden is also a bummer (they do in the US though, guess they are afraid of law suits).
I like the car in general, but they do some bad decisions that make me look at other brands when considering a new car.
Not Applicable. If it somehow took an engineering degree to toast a Pop-Tart, the "failing to meet" would have nothing whatsoever to do with any education system for engineers.
EDIT: On another read...I'd say the bizarre quote is just Farley desperately trying to throw the blame somewhere, somewhere far away from where it belongs - with him and Ford.
The solution is simple, right? Ford should be offering paid training and a talent pipeline, to build this talent pool that they supposedly need. Why don't they? Are they willing to spend the investment required? These are the root causes of the system failure imho, everyone (current state, US specific) wants the best talent possible at the cheapest possible cost, on demand with as little long term economic obligation or liability possible.
Is the way the Ford engine is installed standard in some way, or does it take 5 years for a Ford engine, 5 for a GMC, ...? Cuz if it's unique to Ford, it's a Ford problem, not a trade school problem.
Looking for book time, etc, ford doesn't seem likely to be as high complexity as similar large diesel.. I think the issue is similar to workstation repair vs PC repair.. 5 years learning this is instead of making a similar hourly rate on higher volumes of cars, risking that others are trying to close that gap too and wondering how long that skill as it is stays stably useful.
I did, and either the CEO doesn't know what a mechanic is, or hes spewing bullshit because mechanics are not part of the Auto Union or working in manufacturing plants that he was talking about wages going up for. Which I might add he wasn't done voluntarily, the union forced the pay raise.
Six figure hourly-wage "salaries", as long as you put in the 20 hours overtime every week. He also didn't mention the swing shift going from 2 weeks on 3rd, 2 weeks on 2nd, 2 weeks on 1st, and repeat. We can probably find a bunch of other anti-worker issues if we look into it. He also suggests it takes 5 years of education to learn to take out an engine. You're better off getting a college education in that time. Or you'll be dealing with the same engine for the next 30 years. No future. No advancement, No life.
> Six figure hourly-wage "salaries", as long as you put in the 20 hours overtime every week. He also didn't mention the swing shift going from 2 weeks on 3rd, 2 weeks on 2nd, 2 weeks on 1st, and repeat.
My understanding is that this is how the similar “high pay” but perpetually understaffed field of nursing is.
> You're better off getting a college education in that time. Or you'll be dealing with the same engine for the next 30 years. No future. No advancement, No life.
Some years ago, I heard about a big shortage of airplane mechanics, and lived near a small, but moderately busy commercial airport.
I looked into the training programs for that sort of things and it would have been cheaper for me to just go get an aerospace engineering degree from a state school and design the damn planes.
Anytime a company says it "can't" fill positions, it's because they're not paying enough, they're unwilling to train, or both. One those few things in life that really is that simple.
>Anytime a couple says it "can't" find a house, it's because they're not paying enough, they're unwilling to build it themselves, or both. One those few things in life that really is that simple.
The salary they pay is double the median for car mechanics. You still think that's not paying enough?
They don't pay a salary at all, so no. Mechanics are flat-rate, which means you get paid a fixed amount for a given task, standardized in terms of hours of labor by some agent like Mitchell 1, and the dealerships frequently cut the hour rating for warranty work, which means mechanics have to work faster on in-warranty cars to break even. This weird-ass billing practice is why I left the field; total comp is much better in IT.
It can also just be in the wrong place; I’ve definitely seen companies exhaust talent pools and have up open up a second office.
I agree in principle though, the people exist and can be hired
>life that really is that simple.
It definitely isn't. Here in Germany I could redirect you to a dozen small businesses in the trades I personally know that are starved for young people and that pay better than a decent chunk of degrees, but vocational and blue collar work even here, and this is in my experience even more common in the Anglosphere, is just deemed unattractive by a significant chunk of the workforce.
It's so bad that I know a handful of people who'd even pass the business on because their own kids didn't want to stay in the trades but go to uni.
Paying better than a decent chunk of degrees isn't enough to be competitive. What are the working conditions? Is it inside with AC at a desk? Is it 8 hours a day 5 days a week? If it's not you have to factor that into total comp. Is your job still competitive with a decent chunk of degrees when you factor in an extra 20k for working conditions?
Trades people like to compare total comp but never talk about working conditions, upward mobility, how much they drive or whether their employer provides their tools.
related article - "...Then a Mechanic Responds" https://www.motor1.com/news/774805/ford-ceo-complains-shorta...
HN discussion of related article - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45500699
In summary, roughly speaking, you’re expected to do the tasks within the time frame described by Ford or you’re only paid for that time.
But then everything takes longer, because nothing is realistic and people end up working overtime for free.
Dude is out of his gourd if he believes mechanics are making 6 figures without doing crazy overtime. Just because a job posting is advertised up to 6 figures doesn't mean they will actually offer you such a wage. I live in Michigan and am from a family of mechanics and 95% of mechanics never break $100K ever.
He is also extremely ignorant if he thinks it takes 5 years to learn how to take an engine out of a vehicle, people get PhDs in 5 years, and I could teach someone to remove and replace a certain vehicle's motor in a few days at worst including most of the tips and tricks when things don't go smoothly, after a year I would expect them to be able to take out any motor from any vehicle without guidance. Taking a motor out of a vehicle is one of the easier parts of a mechanic's job, the hard part is being able to diagnose problems without tearing the entire motor out before you know it needs to, or figuring out how to fix a problem without tearing apart every nut and bolt on the car per the official repair, especially as a dealership mechanic where you only get paid a set minimum price for each job no matter how long it takes you in reality. Sure a brand new vehicle might have bolts that spin off in 10 seconds, but the crusty rusted out car from Michigan salted roads might require torches to remove it or time to extract a broken bolt, or drilling and tapping and helicoiling a stripped hole. Even if the hourly labor was free, the parts that either MUST be replaced once bolts are pulled and seals broken, or will inevitably be broken in the process of removal no matter how careful you are, still cost money.
Designing a car that is easy to maintain and diagnose is a lot harder than it seems and manufacturers are incentivized to focus on new sales than maintenance.
Well, then we ended up weird designs that expects you take and engine out to change an alternator or estimates that are way off.
It’s quite dishonest that all the problems of the entire sector is being merged into “nobody wants to work anymore” style conversation with a lot of fine prints.
I had a ford and when working on it I realized one thing:
This car was designed to assemble, not to disassemble.
Easiest example: the gray fabric-like panels in the trunk that cover everything? They are attached with small christmas-tree fasteners that mate with holes in the trunk walls. They take maybe 1/4 second to fasten. But to unfasten they take finesse to carefully remove without breaking the fastener.
Cars are like that all the way down. Also, a lot of these types of fasteners are designed to be replaced after you take them apart. But basically no mechanic does that. It's one reason why you have door and other interior panels making squeaking or other vibration noise after your car has been worked on.
Even decent reusable fasteners like screws frequently deserve a little locktite when replacing them and nobody does that.
I tried looking for these on their careers page and I can’t find what he’s talking about. Regardless I don’t think I’d move to Detroit for this. Even if I enjoyed the trade.
He's talking about mechanics in the dealership network, so I looked in five or six major metro areas, and couldn't find a single example of a six-figure job at 40/hours per week. One promised "up to $12,000/month" at $40/hour -- which works out between 70 and 80 hours a week.
I don't think he's got a firm grip on this market.
> “We do not have trade schools,” he said. “We are not investing in educating a next generation of people like my grandfather who had nothing, who built a middle class life and a future for his family.”
So put your money where your mouth is and open your own trade school? If someone as incompetent and corrupt as Falwell can open and operate Liberty University, then why can’t CEO Farley?
> why can’t CEO Farley?
I'm guessing it involves some front-end expense - which (like all business expenses) are at odds with shareholder wishes.
> Net worth: 30 million.
He can easily finance a small trade school as a pilot project on his own, without shareholder approval.
So does he think it has ROI or no?
Why should he do that? He isn’t the owner of Ford. What if he gets fired like his predecessor?
Well if what he said is true it wouldn't matter because he would have a school that profits off of training supposedly in-demand skill sets. Unless of course he is lieing and mechanics are paid like garbage but he needs someone to blame for the poor reliability of current Ford vehicles and is angry he can't get more people fixing them despite them often making below the median US wage.
Either he thinks it’s a worthwhile pursuit or he doesn’t.
If his point is that it’s only worthwhile when the public subsidizes the cost, then he’s just yet another rent-seeking millionaire looking to profit off the taxpayer’s dollar at no risk to either himself or Ford.
Mechanics at dealerships or assembly line technicians?
Because there's no way those jobs are 6 figures at the dealerships when automakers and dealers push fixed-fee services and severely underrate the hours required.
FWIW, I had an office at a Ford dealership, 2005-2010. Our mechanics earned in the 25k-55k range.
> Still, part of the problem for the shortage of manufacturing jobs is the lack of education and training, according to Farley. He noted, for example, learning to take a diesel engine out of a Ford Super Duty truck takes at least five years. The current system is not meeting the standard, he added.
Sounds like Ford's #1 problem is failure to train its engineers, in how to design reasonably maintainable vehicles.
Many modern cars are not designed to be easily worked on. I think the priority is ease/cost of initial assembly, only.
My 2010 Mercedes had headlight bulbs that died frequently. But there was no way for a human to reach in and replace them, without either some special tool or disassembling a bunch of stuff at the front of the car. Just one example. You can find many similar complaints elsewhere.
I had friends that bought a pair of Malibus, those require you to take off the entire front bumper to replace, and even worse they regularly burnt out bulbs and eventually melted the bulb connectors. I was so glad when they got rid of those PoS.
My father in law had once of those
Step one, remove car from bulb. Step two, replace bulb. Step three, assemble in reverse order.
Last maintenance I did on my Volvo was to replace the battery which should be quick for a non-mechanic as myself.
I spent more time building a make shift tool to detach/attach the battery than I did actual work. This due to them placing a bolt really bad so you can't access it with a normal wrench.
Not offering a paid upgrade to a 4G modem for the app features when they kill the 3G network in Sweden is also a bummer (they do in the US though, guess they are afraid of law suits).
I like the car in general, but they do some bad decisions that make me look at other brands when considering a new car.
Sounds like my 2002 VW's headlights. And several of its other systems...
I replaced that VW with a Honda in 2010, and will never buy another "German Engineering" car.
>> Still, part of the problem for the shortage of manufacturing jobs is the lack of education and training, according to Farley.
>> He noted, for example, learning to take a diesel engine out of a Ford Super Duty truck takes at least five years.
>> The current system is not meeting the standard, he added.
I fully agree with your opinion .... but this guy's quote is bizarre.
What system is failing to meet the 5-years-to-learn-how-to-remove-one-particular-engine standard?
High school trades? Community college? Private $xx,000 high-debt mechanic school?
None of these are remotely capable of teaching Ford's hyper-narrow specialization. Trying to would be a disaster.
> What system is failing to meet...
Not Applicable. If it somehow took an engineering degree to toast a Pop-Tart, the "failing to meet" would have nothing whatsoever to do with any education system for engineers.
EDIT: On another read...I'd say the bizarre quote is just Farley desperately trying to throw the blame somewhere, somewhere far away from where it belongs - with him and Ford.
The solution is simple, right? Ford should be offering paid training and a talent pipeline, to build this talent pool that they supposedly need. Why don't they? Are they willing to spend the investment required? These are the root causes of the system failure imho, everyone (current state, US specific) wants the best talent possible at the cheapest possible cost, on demand with as little long term economic obligation or liability possible.
Is the way the Ford engine is installed standard in some way, or does it take 5 years for a Ford engine, 5 for a GMC, ...? Cuz if it's unique to Ford, it's a Ford problem, not a trade school problem.
Looking for book time, etc, ford doesn't seem likely to be as high complexity as similar large diesel.. I think the issue is similar to workstation repair vs PC repair.. 5 years learning this is instead of making a similar hourly rate on higher volumes of cars, risking that others are trying to close that gap too and wondering how long that skill as it is stays stably useful.
Because he refuses to pay them fairly.
Clearly you didn't read the article...
I did, and either the CEO doesn't know what a mechanic is, or hes spewing bullshit because mechanics are not part of the Auto Union or working in manufacturing plants that he was talking about wages going up for. Which I might add he wasn't done voluntarily, the union forced the pay raise.
It's even worse. Either the CEO of FORD has no idea how much mechanics are paid or he is lying to the public for political handouts.
Six figure hourly-wage "salaries", as long as you put in the 20 hours overtime every week. He also didn't mention the swing shift going from 2 weeks on 3rd, 2 weeks on 2nd, 2 weeks on 1st, and repeat. We can probably find a bunch of other anti-worker issues if we look into it. He also suggests it takes 5 years of education to learn to take out an engine. You're better off getting a college education in that time. Or you'll be dealing with the same engine for the next 30 years. No future. No advancement, No life.
> Six figure hourly-wage "salaries", as long as you put in the 20 hours overtime every week. He also didn't mention the swing shift going from 2 weeks on 3rd, 2 weeks on 2nd, 2 weeks on 1st, and repeat.
My understanding is that this is how the similar “high pay” but perpetually understaffed field of nursing is.
> You're better off getting a college education in that time. Or you'll be dealing with the same engine for the next 30 years. No future. No advancement, No life.
Some years ago, I heard about a big shortage of airplane mechanics, and lived near a small, but moderately busy commercial airport.
I looked into the training programs for that sort of things and it would have been cheaper for me to just go get an aerospace engineering degree from a state school and design the damn planes.
> No future. No advancement, No life.
Honestly starting to feel the same way about developing software.
Welcome to the club, it's like that in tech support, too.
[dead]