I don't know, does a trackpad count? In one sense, no, it's not a mouse. In which case, I guess I'm in the same boat. I don't know if I even have any mice in the house anymore.
OTOH, I thought this might be a post from a keyboard shortcut wizard.
I spend most of my time using a ThinkPad laptop touchpad, but the critical property that makes it usable for me is the physical mouse buttons. I find it incredibly awkward to use any system without physical mouse buttons, or any system where tap-to-click has not been disabled.
I tried, on my current laptop, to see if I could get used to having tap-to-click enabled even without actually using it; I wanted to see how far off I was from being able to deal with any non-ThinkPad. I ended up turning it back off after a few days, after many many clicks I didn't want to click.
Why do you find this better? I find it awkward to have to contort my hand to hold the button down when dragging around. This was already the case with older trackpads with the buttons below, but now all trackpads with physical buttons I've seen have them above (probably intended for the trackpoint).
I really hate the hinge-style trackpads, but even on macs, I always enable tap to click and double-tap-drap to hold. On mac os and linux you can enable a "persistent hold for a short while" which allows to lift your finger briefly without losing the hold. Never found a similar setting on windows, which drives me crazy whenever I absolutely have to use that os.
> This was already the case with older trackpads with the buttons below, but now all trackpads with physical buttons I've seen have them above (probably intended for the trackpoint).
I think they're officially intended for the trackpoint, yes. But I find buttons-above convenient, because if I rest my arm/hand in a relaxed fashion on the laptop palm rest, I can use my pointer or middle finger for precise movement, and click with my middle or ring finger.
That said, I'd take buttons-below over no buttons. With buttons-below, I'm using my middle finger to mouse and my pointer finger to click, and that's still reasonably comfortable.
In both cases, I find it better because: clicking the button requires a deliberate action that won't happen by accident while using the touchpad; there's no delay required to confirm if touching the touchpad is a click something else, it's never a click; there's nothing timing-based at all, motion is motion and clicking is clicking; right-click and middle-click have dedicated buttons (I probably use middle-click many times more often than right-click on any given day, to open links in tabs and to close tabs).
This isn't something that could be solved with a better touchpad or better software.
Modern GNOME distros (Ubuntu and Fedora when running Wayland, for example) work pretty well with a trackpad. You get all the usual Mac-style gestures: two finger scrolling, pinch to zoom, three finger horizontal swipe for workspaces, three finger vertical swipe for "expose" style app overview, etc.
I'm running a Framework 13 and other than the physical click requiring more effort than the haptic "click" on a Mac, it's pretty dang similar.
I've tried them all. Trackpad, trackpoint, trackball, all of them. I keep coming back to a mouse. Everything else is either frustrating and finicky, or it induces RSI after a few hours.
I detest the trackpad on my Windows (Linux soon) laptop, so I have to use an external mouse with it, but I use the "magic trackpad" on my personal and work macbooks including external ones without issues (except if I have to drag something very far; this three finger drag seems to make it nicer although it wouldn't work if I needed to make sure not to let go like when dragging files around). Just wanted to point out that there's a big difference.
I don't daily drive a mac anymore, but I seem to remember that it allowed you to hold the selection with one or more fingers, and move another finger on touchpad for the actual moving part. You could lift this last finger without letting go of the selection.
I thought it was going to be about someone who’d fully embraced the terminal.
Preferring a trackpad to a mouse seems not so unusual, right? I guess sticking to it so completely is. I prefer marble-mouse type devices, but I can’t say with any certainty that I haven’t accidentally touched a mouse in the past 14 years.
I haven't used a mouse in ages, but I haven't used a trackpad - ever. I've never found one that matches the accuracy, speed, and overall joy of using TrackPoint to move the mouse cursor.
Yeah it’s really a shame that the track point wasn’t adopted globally (I’m assuming for patent reasons, but surely any patents must be expired by now).
For years I used a Trackpoint external keyboard plus a mouse. The track point is great for small movements when you’re primarily typing, and the mouse is great for when you are primarily moving the cursor.
When I do use a mouse, I use a Logitech Lift because horizontal grip mice are uncomfortable, but now that I've retired and 99% of my time is on my MacBook Air, it's all trackpad, and my hands don't seem to mind it.
Unfortunately I've not been able to verify this, as it doesn't take effect until you log out and back in, and I'm in the middle of a task. Once it's done I'll test it and either update this post or comment with my results, depending on how long it takes me.
ETA: I tested it, and the behavior is correct when I log back in after running the above. Oddly though, the settings aren't showing as turned on in the settings panel. If anyone has a scriptable solution to that I'd love to hear it.
Wish I could use a trackpad as-is. My wrists are mildly FUBAR after decades of computer work/obsession, and now I'm having to deal with it. For me, that means that continual wrist pronation freaking hurts.
Let your arms hang straight down. Now bend your elbows and lift your forearms so that they're at 90º to your body, i.e. parallel to the ground. Notice that your hands are naturally oriented so that if you were holding a pole, it would be much closer to pointing downward than sideways. Rotating your wrists "inward" so that your hand is parallel to your desk, in the position to use a trackpad, is not their normal position.
I used a magic trackpad for quite a while until I found myself in agony by the end of the day. One of my coworkers told me he was exploring using vertical mice and that caught my attention. I tried one and it stopped the pain, like, immediately. Mousing around was awkward for a few days until I got used to the different hand orientation and movement, but that passed quickly. Now I'd never, ever go back to a trackpad.
I'd considered making a little block to mount my magic trackpad sideways at, say, a 45º angle to my desk so that my wrist wasn't so pronated, but even then it nudges you toward radial and ulnar deviation which can also become uncomfortable over time. I'd rather just painlessly use my vertical mouse which uses forearm movement and write extension/flexion to zip the cursor around my screen.
Sounds like you might benefit from something like the UHK[1].
It's got tenting, which approaches that natural tilt to your hands, and there are several mouse add-ons to choose from, I'm sure one of them will suit your needs.
Yeah, something like that is awfully appealing. I don't have as much trouble with typing as with trackpadding for whatever happy combination of reasons, the biggest being that I taught myself to type after playing piano for many years first, and so completely ignored "proper" home-row typing in favor of piano-like "move your hand around and wiggle your fingers" typing. I'm still one of the faster typists I know, so doing it "wrong" hasn't held me back at all.
But. If my hands start to hurt while typing, I'm definitely trying something like that as my first keyboard experiment.
Thanks for mentioning that. I have one hearing aid so I've had to take it out so I can wear both AirPods when I want noise cancellation at all with AirPods. (I can also stream to the hearing aid but it is very tinny, completely lacking bass.)
I haven't used a mouse since about 1999 when my index finger told me I'd been doing entirely too much double-clicking in my Flash animation job. It's been all drawing tablets since then. I have a mouse that I use on the rare occasion of playing a game that requires you to move the view by pushing the cursor against the screen edges; I have to hold it in a weird, awkward grip because that tendon still starts screaming if I try to use it to click a mouse button.
I'm in much the same boat. Daily Apple trackpad driver for the past 15 years at least, maybe more. Every time I have to use a PC with a mouse it kills me a little (and don't get me started on those trackpads cheap PC laptops ship with...)
I like laptop trackpads because it means you're always close to the keyboard, so you can easily switch between cursor and typing without only relying on one. It's good for UI design work for example.
I switched to a mac trackpad years ago due to hand pain that comes whenever I grip/use a mouse. Something about that half-closed-hand light grip has become just super painful. Unfortunately I still need to use one for FPS gaming, just haven't found a controller to match the speed and precision needed to aim and fire at a game opponent.
I'm in the same boat when it comes to gaming. Primarily use a trackball mouse and have used it for some games like World of Warcraft or Path of Exile but a traditional mouse is still king for any FPS game.
I did learn recently that Zowie released an ergonomic version of their mouse that I plan on checking out though. Unfortunately there's just not a ton of options out there for ergonomic gaming mice.
Consider trying a vertical mouse. They look odd and the first day or two it is strange but after a while it becomes second nature. It was only after using one for a few mo ths that I realised most of my issues with typical mouses.
Also it is funny going back to a standard mice, it feels like you are awkwardly using a tiktak for input.
Some people use console controllers on pc playing competitive FPS games (see for example TheBrokenMachine), maybe thats an alternative for you? Personally I think it would take me 5+ years to get used to tho…
Trackball gang here. Nulea seems to be my latest iteration, I've tried a bunch of them.
When I first learned of them I thought they were ridiculous, but it really saved my hands going ergonomic w/ the Trackball and Keyboard (Microsoft Ergo style - Nulea as well).
I get the love for Macbook trackpads, but Lenovo really nailed it with the ThinkPad trackpoint and glass trackpad combo, especially on more recent models.
Windows has something better than three finger drag. It has single finger second tap and hold. Plus extended zones for when the trackpad is not big enough to stretch across
But it misses the killer feature that both macs and Linux have and makes this glorious: allow lifting the finger for a short time without letting go of the selection.
I despise trackpads. They feel so sloppy and approximate. Mice work great for my needs. But the best laptop pointer for me has been the pointing stick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick
And yet I'll use nothing else. Conversely, I have never gotten along with pointy sticks, all the way back to the original 1993 Toshiba Portégé[0] despite their apparent popularity.
Anecdotal, but I haven't used my Magic Trackpad 2 since I bought a trackball (Kensington Expert Wireless). Removes all the same wrist strain issues while retaining flick accuracy of a mouse.
I have tried to go completely mouse/trackpad free with vimari/vimium, scoot, and rectangle. Worked relatively well, and helps me move things around as fast as I can think.
>I am still amazed by Mac's Trackpad quality to this day. I used to own Windows laptops, and most of their touchpads are so shit
I have hear multiple times that patents are the reason for the bad trackpads outside of Apples products. But I have never been able to find a confirmation.
Talking about mouse alternatives I would like to give rollermouse a shout-out. Beside the relaxed arm position they give, I really like that they invite to use both hands at the same time. With the similar workload between both hands and arms I find the over all strain lower even with repetitive tasks for a long time.
I don't know, does a trackpad count? In one sense, no, it's not a mouse. In which case, I guess I'm in the same boat. I don't know if I even have any mice in the house anymore.
OTOH, I thought this might be a post from a keyboard shortcut wizard.
I spend most of my time using a ThinkPad laptop touchpad, but the critical property that makes it usable for me is the physical mouse buttons. I find it incredibly awkward to use any system without physical mouse buttons, or any system where tap-to-click has not been disabled.
I tried, on my current laptop, to see if I could get used to having tap-to-click enabled even without actually using it; I wanted to see how far off I was from being able to deal with any non-ThinkPad. I ended up turning it back off after a few days, after many many clicks I didn't want to click.
My wife feels the same way as you. I guess everyone is different. To me, tap-to-click and two-finger right click feel the best by far.
Why do you find this better? I find it awkward to have to contort my hand to hold the button down when dragging around. This was already the case with older trackpads with the buttons below, but now all trackpads with physical buttons I've seen have them above (probably intended for the trackpoint).
I really hate the hinge-style trackpads, but even on macs, I always enable tap to click and double-tap-drap to hold. On mac os and linux you can enable a "persistent hold for a short while" which allows to lift your finger briefly without losing the hold. Never found a similar setting on windows, which drives me crazy whenever I absolutely have to use that os.
> This was already the case with older trackpads with the buttons below, but now all trackpads with physical buttons I've seen have them above (probably intended for the trackpoint).
I think they're officially intended for the trackpoint, yes. But I find buttons-above convenient, because if I rest my arm/hand in a relaxed fashion on the laptop palm rest, I can use my pointer or middle finger for precise movement, and click with my middle or ring finger.
That said, I'd take buttons-below over no buttons. With buttons-below, I'm using my middle finger to mouse and my pointer finger to click, and that's still reasonably comfortable.
In both cases, I find it better because: clicking the button requires a deliberate action that won't happen by accident while using the touchpad; there's no delay required to confirm if touching the touchpad is a click something else, it's never a click; there's nothing timing-based at all, motion is motion and clicking is clicking; right-click and middle-click have dedicated buttons (I probably use middle-click many times more often than right-click on any given day, to open links in tabs and to close tabs).
This isn't something that could be solved with a better touchpad or better software.
I exclusively use trackpads like Magic Trackpad 2 when I'm on MacOS. But I exclusively use a mouse when I'm running Windows and Linux.
MacOS just seems more tailored to the touchpad experience. Windows and Linux more tailored to the mouse experience.
Modern GNOME distros (Ubuntu and Fedora when running Wayland, for example) work pretty well with a trackpad. You get all the usual Mac-style gestures: two finger scrolling, pinch to zoom, three finger horizontal swipe for workspaces, three finger vertical swipe for "expose" style app overview, etc.
I'm running a Framework 13 and other than the physical click requiring more effort than the haptic "click" on a Mac, it's pretty dang similar.
I've tried them all. Trackpad, trackpoint, trackball, all of them. I keep coming back to a mouse. Everything else is either frustrating and finicky, or it induces RSI after a few hours.
What worked for me is “logitech lift”, one left handed the other right handed. When they are connected I set up my Mac to disable the trackpad.
That + sport and standing desk, did wonder to me.
I detest the trackpad on my Windows (Linux soon) laptop, so I have to use an external mouse with it, but I use the "magic trackpad" on my personal and work macbooks including external ones without issues (except if I have to drag something very far; this three finger drag seems to make it nicer although it wouldn't work if I needed to make sure not to let go like when dragging files around). Just wanted to point out that there's a big difference.
I don't daily drive a mac anymore, but I seem to remember that it allowed you to hold the selection with one or more fingers, and move another finger on touchpad for the actual moving part. You could lift this last finger without letting go of the selection.
Did you try a mousetrapper?
I thought it was going to be about someone who’d fully embraced the terminal.
Preferring a trackpad to a mouse seems not so unusual, right? I guess sticking to it so completely is. I prefer marble-mouse type devices, but I can’t say with any certainty that I haven’t accidentally touched a mouse in the past 14 years.
I haven't used a mouse in ages, but I haven't used a trackpad - ever. I've never found one that matches the accuracy, speed, and overall joy of using TrackPoint to move the mouse cursor.
Yeah it’s really a shame that the track point wasn’t adopted globally (I’m assuming for patent reasons, but surely any patents must be expired by now).
For years I used a Trackpoint external keyboard plus a mouse. The track point is great for small movements when you’re primarily typing, and the mouse is great for when you are primarily moving the cursor.
I love trackpoint for navigation and UI control. But it's not that great for drawing / painting (even though I did use it for that, successfully).
When I do use a mouse, I use a Logitech Lift because horizontal grip mice are uncomfortable, but now that I've retired and 99% of my time is on my MacBook Air, it's all trackpad, and my hands don't seem to mind it.
If, like me, you like to script your Mac environment setup, the following two commands SHOULD do the same thing:
Unfortunately I've not been able to verify this, as it doesn't take effect until you log out and back in, and I'm in the middle of a task. Once it's done I'll test it and either update this post or comment with my results, depending on how long it takes me.ETA: I tested it, and the behavior is correct when I log back in after running the above. Oddly though, the settings aren't showing as turned on in the settings panel. If anyone has a scriptable solution to that I'd love to hear it.
Wish I could use a trackpad as-is. My wrists are mildly FUBAR after decades of computer work/obsession, and now I'm having to deal with it. For me, that means that continual wrist pronation freaking hurts.
Let your arms hang straight down. Now bend your elbows and lift your forearms so that they're at 90º to your body, i.e. parallel to the ground. Notice that your hands are naturally oriented so that if you were holding a pole, it would be much closer to pointing downward than sideways. Rotating your wrists "inward" so that your hand is parallel to your desk, in the position to use a trackpad, is not their normal position.
I used a magic trackpad for quite a while until I found myself in agony by the end of the day. One of my coworkers told me he was exploring using vertical mice and that caught my attention. I tried one and it stopped the pain, like, immediately. Mousing around was awkward for a few days until I got used to the different hand orientation and movement, but that passed quickly. Now I'd never, ever go back to a trackpad.
I'd considered making a little block to mount my magic trackpad sideways at, say, a 45º angle to my desk so that my wrist wasn't so pronated, but even then it nudges you toward radial and ulnar deviation which can also become uncomfortable over time. I'd rather just painlessly use my vertical mouse which uses forearm movement and write extension/flexion to zip the cursor around my screen.
Sounds like you might benefit from something like the UHK[1].
It's got tenting, which approaches that natural tilt to your hands, and there are several mouse add-ons to choose from, I'm sure one of them will suit your needs.
[1]https://uhk.io/
Yeah, something like that is awfully appealing. I don't have as much trouble with typing as with trackpadding for whatever happy combination of reasons, the biggest being that I taught myself to type after playing piano for many years first, and so completely ignored "proper" home-row typing in favor of piano-like "move your hand around and wiggle your fingers" typing. I'm still one of the faster typists I know, so doing it "wrong" hasn't held me back at all.
But. If my hands start to hurt while typing, I'm definitely trying something like that as my first keyboard experiment.
> macOS setup guide used to include an option to turn on three finger drag, but now it has been hidden in the accessibility option.
I don't understand why Apple does this. It's like the "allow ANC with one AirPod" setting, which is also inexplicably an accessibility option.
Thanks for mentioning that. I have one hearing aid so I've had to take it out so I can wear both AirPods when I want noise cancellation at all with AirPods. (I can also stream to the hearing aid but it is very tinny, completely lacking bass.)
I haven't used a mouse since about 1999 when my index finger told me I'd been doing entirely too much double-clicking in my Flash animation job. It's been all drawing tablets since then. I have a mouse that I use on the rare occasion of playing a game that requires you to move the view by pushing the cursor against the screen edges; I have to hold it in a weird, awkward grip because that tendon still starts screaming if I try to use it to click a mouse button.
I'm in much the same boat. Daily Apple trackpad driver for the past 15 years at least, maybe more. Every time I have to use a PC with a mouse it kills me a little (and don't get me started on those trackpads cheap PC laptops ship with...)
I like laptop trackpads because it means you're always close to the keyboard, so you can easily switch between cursor and typing without only relying on one. It's good for UI design work for example.
I switched to a mac trackpad years ago due to hand pain that comes whenever I grip/use a mouse. Something about that half-closed-hand light grip has become just super painful. Unfortunately I still need to use one for FPS gaming, just haven't found a controller to match the speed and precision needed to aim and fire at a game opponent.
I'm in the same boat when it comes to gaming. Primarily use a trackball mouse and have used it for some games like World of Warcraft or Path of Exile but a traditional mouse is still king for any FPS game.
I did learn recently that Zowie released an ergonomic version of their mouse that I plan on checking out though. Unfortunately there's just not a ton of options out there for ergonomic gaming mice.
Consider trying a vertical mouse. They look odd and the first day or two it is strange but after a while it becomes second nature. It was only after using one for a few mo ths that I realised most of my issues with typical mouses.
Also it is funny going back to a standard mice, it feels like you are awkwardly using a tiktak for input.
Yep that's what I currently use--it's the only way I can even bear holding one.
Some people use console controllers on pc playing competitive FPS games (see for example TheBrokenMachine), maybe thats an alternative for you? Personally I think it would take me 5+ years to get used to tho…
Trackball gang here. Nulea seems to be my latest iteration, I've tried a bunch of them.
When I first learned of them I thought they were ridiculous, but it really saved my hands going ergonomic w/ the Trackball and Keyboard (Microsoft Ergo style - Nulea as well).
One of my favourite features on my Asus Zenbook (Windows) is the "Disable Touchpad" hotkey.
I mean ... it's great that they gave you a slight accommodation, but that's at best a bodge to workaround bad hardware and software.
Actually, the pad is not too bad - I'm just really not into trackpads.
I can't use the trackpad for too long without getting RSI type feelings.. I am trackball these days.
I get the love for Macbook trackpads, but Lenovo really nailed it with the ThinkPad trackpoint and glass trackpad combo, especially on more recent models.
Windows has something better than three finger drag. It has single finger second tap and hold. Plus extended zones for when the trackpad is not big enough to stretch across
But it misses the killer feature that both macs and Linux have and makes this glorious: allow lifting the finger for a short time without letting go of the selection.
I love the Magic Trackpad and I've used exclusively for years, at some point my wrists start to hurt and I'm now stuck with some Logitech MX Vertical.
The Magic Trackpad and Logitech MX Master 3s mouse are an excellent combination for me. I see benefits from both.
I'm on 12 years and I didn't know about the 3 fingers drag, thanks for sharing!
You have me beat by two years and I never knew about the three fingers drag. Great find... thanks!
I despise trackpads. They feel so sloppy and approximate. Mice work great for my needs. But the best laptop pointer for me has been the pointing stick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick
I despise trackpads.
And yet I'll use nothing else. Conversely, I have never gotten along with pointy sticks, all the way back to the original 1993 Toshiba Portégé[0] despite their apparent popularity.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook_Portégé
Anecdotal, but I haven't used my Magic Trackpad 2 since I bought a trackball (Kensington Expert Wireless). Removes all the same wrist strain issues while retaining flick accuracy of a mouse.
Logitech MX Ergo fan here!
This is the best. I use it for work as well.
+1 on trackballs, I use a sanwa gravi myself
I have tried to go completely mouse/trackpad free with vimari/vimium, scoot, and rectangle. Worked relatively well, and helps me move things around as fast as I can think.
web moves: https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari mouse moves: https://github.com/mjrusso/scoot window moves: https://rectangleapp.com
Drag lock is a good setting, just test drove it and will be using it.
>I am still amazed by Mac's Trackpad quality to this day. I used to own Windows laptops, and most of their touchpads are so shit
I have hear multiple times that patents are the reason for the bad trackpads outside of Apples products. But I have never been able to find a confirmation.
Talking about mouse alternatives I would like to give rollermouse a shout-out. Beside the relaxed arm position they give, I really like that they invite to use both hands at the same time. With the similar workload between both hands and arms I find the over all strain lower even with repetitive tasks for a long time.
It is utterly insane that 3 finger drag isn't the default or at least not buried 3 layers deep inside accessibility. Apple, what are you doing?