My understanding is that this new reCAPTCHA is basically just remote attestation.
Remote attestation doesn't use blind signatures (as that would be 'farmable') so tying the device to the 'attestee' is technically possible with collusion of Google servers: EK (static burned-in private key) -> AIK (ephemeral identity key in secure enclave signed by a Google server) -> attestation (signed by AIK). As you can see if the Google server logs EK -> AIK conversions an attestation can be trivially traced to your device's EK. This is also why we don't really see and probably never will see online services which offer fake remote attestations, as it will be pretty obvious that the next step of running such a service is getting Google as a customer and having all your devices blacklisted. Private farms probably won't last long either as I'm sure Google logs everything and will correlate.
Unless something special is done with this new reCAPTCHA not only are you locking internet services behind TPM chips but you are also surrendering anonymity to Google. Unless you acquire untraceable burners for every service, the new reCAPTCHA will be technically capable to tying all your accounts across all these services together. Much like age verification. It may appear that the service would need to cooperate to link the reCAPTCHA session to your registration but the registration time alone will likely be sufficient (the anonymity set will be all but destroyed).
Age verification as a technical concept can be done in a privacy-preserving manner! Whether or not we want age verification is another debate, but let's stop making wrong technical claims about that: it doesn't help.
The trick is to define "privacy-preserving age verification" in an extremely narrow way that ignores any other privacy concerns.
For example, imagine you put the same private key into the 'secure element' of every single iphone. You use code signing so that key is only unlocked when the phone is running unmodified iOS with all security updates. You use encryption and remote attestation for the front-facing camera and face id depth sensor. You use NFC to read government-authenticated age and appearance data from biometric passport chips (or digital ID cards) and you store it on-device.
Then, when you want to access pornhub, they send an age challenge to your device, your device makes sure your face matches the stored passport, and if so it signs the challenge with the private key.
Pornhub gets an Apple-signed attestation of age - but because every phone signs with challenges with the same private key, Pornhub can't link it to a particular phone or identity document.
So in a very narrow sense, privacy is preserved.
You can't use someone else's ID, as it checks your face every time. You can't fool it with a photo of the person because of the depth sensor. You can't MITM/replay the camera/depth data because the link is encrypted. You can't substitute software that skips the check with a rooted phone because of the code signing. Security holes can be closed by just pushing a mandatory OS update.
Sure, it doesn't work on PCs. Doesn't work on Linux, or on unlocked/rooted phones. It hands users' government ID documents over to Google and Apple. It requires people to carry foreign-made, battery powered, network connected GPS trackers (with cameras, microphones and speech recognition) with them. And there are non-negotiable terms of service everyone must agree to. But if you define "privacy-preserving" to ignore all that stuff and only consider whether Pornhub learns your identity, it's privacy-preserving.
That key will get leaked. A key that has to go into every phone, even if done at the manufacturer and onto the TPM chip, will get out.
Also the TPM chip doesn't really have means to tell the phone isn't lying to it or whether it was transplanted onto another board. It will just happily sign anything as long as everything it can see checks out.
All states/governments have basic records on their citizens and residents, including at least a name, dob, address, etc, at least for a passport, driver's license, if not an actual id card. Let's assume this is acceptable.
Then it's technically possible (and really not that difficult) for states to provide a service that issues zero-knowledge proofs of facts like "age > X".
Ring cryptography does this - given a public key and a set of private keys you can attest that one of the keys signed it but not which one. This lets both Google and you generate a signature and say “this is attested”, without the person verifying it knowing _who_ signed it.
They would be a solution if almost all parents used them, but parents don't want to socially isolate their kids since a lot of "social" activity is now on social media. It's kind of a prisoner's dilemma.
There's not necessarily wrong. Despite the vapid and damaging nature of most popular online media, isolating a child from it might have even worse social consequences when their real-life peer groups discover that they're not on social media or that their parents have neutered their phone. Some kids would turn out fine after that. Others would be socially destroyed for life (maybe with the right therapy they could become well-adjusted, but high quality therapy is rare).
> They would be a solution if almost all parents used them
No, they are a solution for parents who want to use them, and that's all they should be. Their existence demonstrates that it's possible to handle this without regulation, other than the desire of some people to inflict their preferences onto other people's kids.
The problem is that while you might be able to trust the crypto, the government won't trust you to do the crypto entirely by yourself. And this introduces avenues for deanonymisation. Moreover, collusion between the government and the entity making the age check can also theoretically deanonimize.
It's a complicated problem.
We continue to seek a technological solution to a parenting problem.
worth noting that google/twitter/facebook/reddit/others colluded to combine sessions, identifiers, so that any person getting identified on any one session / ip would be identified on all
so while this comment is apt, i would ask them what they think of the previous chicxulub impact of the 2012 era collusion - which to this day has not been reported on
(just realized emacs bindings work in comments, nice, no ctrl-x tho)
"Chicxulub impact" seems to be functioning as a bit of hyperbole to imply that this collusion was absolutely devastating, by analogy to the K-T extinction event 66 million years ago.
Not that I really can tell what this was devastating to. Maybe United States v. Apple (2012), where Hachette Book Group, Inc., HarperCollins publishers, Macmillan publishers, Penguin Group, Inc., and Simon & Schuster, Inc. conspired with Apple to raise ebook prices?
I can't say for sure, but is it possible they're referring to the founding of the Internet Association in 2012?[0]
I don't think it's that, because the Wikipedia article makes it seem like it was a force for good, but at the time, it wasn't certain at all that it would be that way.[1]
Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what might be meant.
If you run a website, it seems trivial to forward the attestation to someone else by putting the same code up on your website, and getting their device banned from google instead of your own.
The camera isn't the part doing that verification. The google service serving that "reCAPTCHA" is what's doing that validation. Unless you're using a custom browser that is reporting a different domain to google than the one requesting the reCAPTCHA, google's service will know which domain is which.
It would be generated by some other website like Amazon. Because I own, say, Meta, I copy these Amazon-generated codes over to Meta, make people scan them on their phones to sign into Meta and then pass the solution back to Amazon so my bots can sign into Amazon.
We don't yet know how the client side works, perhaps there will be a decompilation posted soon.
It's possible this scenario is acceptable to them because it means they can still tie your access to something that's easier to ban without requiring a full account login.
What are you implying? That it will become ineffective due to that?
That's possible... and they might change their mind if so, we will see.
I feel like it's a similar issue to when scrapers pretend to be an allowed-origin webpage in order to abuse "public" API keys for web services.
They could also require the mobile device to interact with the requesting webpage in some manner, similar to mutual PIN/codes for Bluetooth/TV pairing these days. That way bulk sharing of the codes would still require active participation from the device that requested it in the first place, likely with a short time limit.
Realistically, what Google will do in such a scenario is collect data about the illicit service, enumerate the devices the farm uses and what other activities the devices participate in. What you suggested has far less control over the devices that generate the attestations and it will show.
Also, if the implementation is competently done the phone will show the website for which you scanned the QR code. A user would be able to see whether or not that matches the site where they observed the QR code and proceed accordingly. In time Google will probably integrate it into the Chrome browser where a proxied QR code cannot even be shown.
> Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.
Not solved at all: 99.999% of users don't give a damn and use a Google-signed Android.
My opinion is that because they don't give a damn does NOT mean regulations should not protect them. What Google is doing here is anticompetitive and they should be fined (antitrust and all that).
That's great until it's some essential government, medical, educational, etc. service that you have either no alternative to or no alternative that isn't also using the same thing. I'm already being slowly and incrementally softlocked out of some (fortunately non-essential so far) sites either by cloudflare or other more subtle "anti-bot" networks as time goes on, including some like I've listed above. I can only expect this will continue until it's something I can't avoid.
For some reason, I'm softlocked from booking tickets from Deutsche Bahn. The website errors out with a cryptic "Your browser's behavior resembles that of a bot." message with no option to try again or pass a captcha or whatever. The website itself described several possible solutions but none helped (I tried using different computers, different internet connections, even a phone connected to internet using a SIM from a different country).
As for now, when I need to travel to Germany, I just book tickets through the national carrier of my home country, which for cross-border tickets often turns out to actually be cheaper than booking through DB. Thankfully I don't live in Germany proper and my need for travel there is not that high (once or twice a year at most) but I wonder what would I do if I had to move to Germany and use trains there more often.
Same problem but with French equivalent SNCF (sncf-connect.com). I just checked and can confirm nothing has changed. You cannot use up-to-date Firefox on Linux to access the main booking site for French rail tickets.
Access is temporarily restricted
We detected unusual activity from your device or network.
Reasons may include:
-Rapid taps or clicks
-JavaScript disabled or not working
-Automated (bot) activity on your network (IP X.X.X.X)
-Use of developer or inspection tools
With the new reCAPTCHA this is going to happen because most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA. It will be interesting to see whether this makes websites ditch reCAPTCHA or whether they literally just don't care about having customers, an attitude that seems to be getting more and more common every day.
I have been unable to give my money to Home Depot, REI and a growing list of online retailers because they use Akamai EdgeSuite, which just assumes I am a bot and 403s on protected API calls. This happens consistently on any IP and any browser on my Linux desktop/laptop.
There are not enough words to describe how much I hate Akamai EdgeSuite. So many random validation loops and 403s across different physical computers, different operating systems, different connections and even countries. A couple of services I need use it and it's 30% I'll make it past their stupid "protection".
It has a zero percent chance of reaching anyone who can do anything about it.
You could try handwriting and posting a letter to their CEO. I think that sometimes works. Probably not very often but there are more than zero CEOs who read those letters.
Maybe they'll figure it out when their revenue drops next quorter or the ones after that?
I was thinking in the same terms: you put up a QR capcha, you don't get my traffic and money. Just the amount of extra work needed, let alone the Google tracking turns me off. As if traffic lights, crosswalks and bridges weren't enough of a hassle.
REI Co-op has an Annual Members Meeting in Seattle, where it announces the results of the board of directors election.
The 2026 one happened Feb 5. Apparently the presentation is only 8m long, some saying it's pre-recorded and it's near-impossible for members to submit a question that actually gets answered:
> most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA
Most human visitors will never ever notice the change. reCAPTCHA is completely invisible for most human visitors because they are allowed to pass just by fingerprint.
It's not like an average user is going to have to scan a QR code every time they visit a site via web browser. If it were like this then it would be a non-issue because no sane website would adopt this system. But it isn't.
One problem with these things is that businesses have minimal visibility on the amount of users they lose.
On the opposite, if they see reports of many visitors not completing the captcha, they're likely to think "Wow so many bots!!! This defense nowadays is indispensable..!".
Sometimes you need to pass a captcha even to contact them (if you want to tell them that you can't pass their captcha).
I wanted to give money to charity and they have whole form protected by recaptcha. So I would have to allow all my personal information and amount donated sent to google (and agree with google terms for data processing). I have contacted them but they did not understand why this is problem they just wanted to protect themself against bots. IMHO unless those things are not disallowed by antitrust laws we have lost.
>> whether they literally just don't care about having customers
So every government website. Every website where people simply have no choice (DMV) or where failure to login results in them not claiming the money/benefits they are due (all tax websites). And every website handling post-sale complaints (Airlines, insurance).
> Ask HN: Did HN just start using Google recaptcha for logins? [0]
> dang
> No recent changes, but we do sometimes turn captchas on for logins when HN is under some kind of (possible) attack or other. That's been happening for a few hours. Hopefully it goes away soon.
There is, but at least in the US neither party cares. They want to get rid of anonymity online, one to throw anyone who googles "trans" in jail, and the other because their biggest donors are tech companies that want to denonymize everyone.
Our antitrust laws have been toothless for decades, and both parties love billionaires controlling the rest of us with an iron fist.
GrapheneOS is looking more and more worth the headache that my limited free time generally does not like. I don't need Google to know my smut fanfiction is written by my IRL.
Felt same way about GrapheneOS but a few friends set it up so i gave it a try. It is easy to install and use. As evidence, I gave my 70 year old father one and he loves it.
When my friend was telling me about GrapheneOS I was thinking back to the old days of android custom roms, all the bugs and bullshit, the time I couldn't dial out to 911 because my custom ROM crashes when I did, or other issues. So I gave it a pass.
However he's been on it now for months and every time he shows me something on it I get a little more jealous. Everything seems to be working fine, including e.g. bank apps, and he has interesting features like some kind of app zoning thing limiting permissions on a zone to zone basis.
The only problem is it's only available on massive phones without headphone jacks and SD card slots, so I'm sticking with Xperia for now.
The other problem with this is that there are few CAPTCHA alternatives.
CF turnstile is one, but of course that means Cloudflare owns even more of the web.
HCaptcha is inaccessible and actively discriminatory against individuals with disabilities and refuses to change, to the point that I suspect the only way that they will do anything is to file a class-action against them and sue them into the ground.
And I... Can't think of anything else. Other than to just get rid of Captchas entirely.
You could just have a custom one that asks domain-specific questions (and ones which will trip up LLMs are not hard to come by.) I've seen a few forums ask such questions for registration, long before the rise of LLMs.
There are other captcha alternatives like Turnstile, for example Private Captcha, Altcha etc. - they are owned by mostly “small” independent companies, they are not visual captchas (proof-of-work based) and very accesssible.
At least in my country (Poland) you should be able to make a pretty bug fuss and resulting in them fixing it, if indeed one of ego services made you leak all your data to Google.
Compliance is what makes all that shit possible. Sadly most people are compliant and made so by gradually increasing their dependency on "commodities" which really are anchors to a shit lake.
Oh just wait, the AI phone service on their side will be more than happy to complete your device attestation key challenge by touch tone. We have to make sure you are still you after all!
But in all seriousness, many services are making it difficult through to impossible to communicate outside of their web or app platforms. Call centres are expensive and messy, and it's now apparently acceptable as a society to treat customers/clients/whatever as adversaries so they can get away with making it hard to communicate with them.
I was unable to book a doctors meeting through the clinic's website, so I declared "screw tech" and called their call center, which still worked better. The app just searched for the "first available spot" and never found anything. If they axe the call center I'm going to have to go to their place.
How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta? They clearly violate ToS for profit. This is something I expect to find on a dark web forum where 0days are traded, not in public.
This kind of thing has been common for ages. Obviously AI has kicked it into overdrive, but it’s not darkweb kind of stuff.
Note that they do not mention any specific companies on that landing page. That is pretty intentional.
But realistically going after bots is expensive and rarely successful, so most companies don’t do it. Even if you find the guy, the chances they can be legally reached are pretty low.
> How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta?
Because they don't care. It doesn't matter that it's AI slop, it generates views. And Google and Meta can bill advertisers for those views.
Zuckerberg is paying people to put AI slop Shrimp Jesus on facebook. (Not directly to platforms like this, but with the incentive structure)
Really, they're not just cashing in on the views of AI slop being put in front of boomers. They're cashing both ways; While the low end spam industry is merely guessing and iterating on whatever generates views, the more refined spammer does not leave the performance of their latest slop post up to chance, and just uses good old viewbotting. Viewbotting that these days, is mostly done on real devices. Which show ads, to the bots or underpaid developing world workers. Google and Meta'll still charge you for those impressions though.
The losers? People who sincerely try to use these platforms, and whatever idiot businesses are still paying for ads by the impression or click, rather than conversions that immediately generate revenue.
Why is every startup using that same Serif font now, Garamond or whatever. Is it an LLM design phenomenon? Its kinda ruining that font style for me.
Also $1,500 a month for 10 "influencers" is wild. This doesn't seem that sophisticated unless they're doing something special to increase trust scores of accounts. They say they have "in house warming algorithm" which honestly doesn't inspire confidence for me.
Whats funny is its almost a certainty (if they are doing things correctly) that they have literal farms of phones (probably in SEA). The only real way to keep trust high is to have a real mobile connection and unique devices. Proxies are okay, but you really need to use the apps on real hardware.
Interesting article, thanks. I've done a bit of small scale phone farming (for my own cheap mobile proxies). In all reality the phones aren't that expensive, I went with Moto 5gs that cost $130 (retail), so in their case the phones pay for themselves in the first month.
Probably a decent amount of compute cost for video generation, but I'm sure they have access to free compute and inference for being in bed with a16z.
I'm sure some people still remember how to mentally decode QR codes and verify ECDSA signatures from Covid days. Public transit ticket inspectors in my city also seem to be quite proficient at it :)
I don't see any requirement to support hardware attestation in the recaptcha documentation, the Play Services seem to be "enough".
I think it's most likely to be attested by Google remotely; they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone, officially to make better humanity assessments based on it all.
For people using a Google account it probably won't make a huge difference, in terms of data collected.
If that's how it would work, spoofing would probably be theoretically possible, but it would be easy for Google to detect attestations used by multiple people.
Let's not forget that this is an update to a very approximate system, absolute security is not (yet) required.
But there's a good chance that it will be extremely hard to sidestep, despite that.
> they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone
But anything your phone can possibly do in software can be spoofed, so how would that help?
> Recital 49 - Network and Information Security as Overriding Legitimate Interest
> The processing of personal data to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate for the purposes of ensuring network and information security, i.e. the ability of a network or an information system to resist, at a given level of confidence, accidental events or unlawful or malicious actions that compromise the availability, authenticity, integrity and confidentiality of stored or transmitted personal data, and the security of the related services offered by, or accessible via, those networks and systems,...
It's funny how people after all this time think 99 Articles, 173 Recitals and a huge tech lobby equals a water-tight, pro-citizen, impenetrable privacy law with almost no exemptions.
Apple has their own remote attestation infrastructure and you will not be able to impersonate an Apple device without extracting private key material from the secure enclave of a legitimate Apple device or compromising Apple certificate authority private keys.
> People running de-Googled phones chose those setups because they read the data practices, understood what Play Services phones home about, and decided they didn’t consent.
This is wrong. Many (most?) users of alternative Android OSes do use a variant of the Play Services (be it sandboxed Play Services like on GrapheneOS, or an open source, reverse engineered implementation like microG that phones home just the same).
Google seems to be leveraging Play Integrity here, which requires that the phone OS is signed by Google. This is clearly anticompetitive, I hope the DMA will do something about that.
There is a fundamental tension here though - suppose DMA or something requires that online providers recognise reCAPTCHAs from non-Google-attested OS builds. What OSs can they safely trust?
Only ones that are difficult for fraudsters to use to generate bogus traffic. Whether or not those builds come from Google, they are inherently gonna be pretty constrained OSs. It's not gonna let you spoof your location or simulate user input.
I do think it's a problem if only Google can provide these attestations but even if that organisation problem is solved there is still a fundamental technologic problem here now that humans can't be detected by their ability to solve puzzles any more.
I've kept a spare cheap android for too long and recently went with Graphene instead. I have one Google profile and only use it for Uber, work's Google Chat and maps. One bank refused to work (even with Google services) so I moved bank. I've moved most of my mobile use to self hosted (freshrss full text, password manager, calendar, tasks) with no direct internet connection.
It's a bit irritating but I'm glad I started down this journey because it looks more and more like I'm going to be avoiding the internet
> One bank refused to work (even with Google services) so I moved bank
Banks are implementing terrible "security" checks. Users of alternative OSes should be a lot more vocal: change bank, but also complain a lot to the offending one, and make sure to leave them a bad review on the Play Store.
Actually people not using an alternative OS but caring about that should also leave bad reviews to those banks on the Play Store.
At the end of the day, the problem comes from humans in those banks who don't understand and don't give a shit. The only way to make them care about it is to complain enough that it becomes their problem.
When I had a jailbroken iPhone my bank app (HSBC) would detect it and show a warning but let you continue anyway at your own risk, which I thought was a reasonable compromise
My setup is similar and nearly 100% self-hosted, including email, files, AI. If something does not work on Graphene, I will do without it. I also have a Google profile, mostly for testing purposes.
I said it already in another comment, but if you care enough to use GrapheneOS, I believe you should not only "do without it". You should also complain to those services.
If enough people complain, those services will start caring. If all they see is "one user complains every 3 years", they will just ignore it. That's how it works.
How have you managed to accomplish self-hosted email? I tried similar in 2022 and found it damn near impossible without business static IP or a cloud provider.
You can't do it reliably without a static IP in a non residential subnet that lets you set reverse dns. If you have a static residential IP and they don't filter inbound SMTP you can make it work with a smarthost/relay like mailgun. Its not the insurmountable obstacle everyone makes it out to be, but its not going to be free unless you already have an IP that meets the criteria.
If you don't have a static IP you need will want to think about a MX relay service too ~ although mail is surprisingly tolerant of offline MX hosts if you can wait a little bit for your mail.
My approach is to run a VPS with multiple static IPs that I (using Wireguard) tunnel to a number of virtual machines I host at home on a microserver. Conversely, the virtual machines' primary view of the Internet is the opposite side of the tunnel.
A VPS or cheap dedicated is enough to get the static IP. I have very few problems with email, I use one VPS and one dedicated server though some zealots would argue a vps isn't self hosting
I have access to a commercial (non-residential), fixed IP. You could also use an outgoing relay as a compromise, since presumably the issue you are facing is other servers rejecting email that you send from a disreputable IP. That being said, you really want a fixed IP as a matter of convenience if you are going to self-host anything.
How often are your emails being marked as spam, for others? A few years ago it read like there’s a whole science behind avoiding getting flagged. Is this easier now with agents aiding the setup?
Not the person you replied to, and it's impossible to know with certainty how often you're in someone else's spam, but very rarely.
I had an issue with yahoo a couple of years ago that's all. The "it read like there's a whole science" is sadly a trope mostly repeated by people who have never tried because it gets upvotes on Reedit.
There are some steps you have to take, but not many, and systems like Mox mailserver or stalwart guide you through it, and mail-tester will check if you got it right.
Email, other than tweaking spam filters, is one of my lowest maintenance systems. I can't remember the last time I touched Exim or Mox config
I imagine an agent would make a lot of the first time setup from scratch easier, but the fastest reliable way to get up and running is mail-in-a-box or mailcow. Before those were available I built a flurdy style Postfix+Courier+Amavisd+MySQL setup and have been evolving it ever since. Now I'm on Postfix+Dovecot+rspamd+MySQL but I don't think that's for everyone or even the best way to start.
The science of not getting flagged is easy when you're not sending large volumes of untrusted mail; it only gets complicated if you start hosting mail for "customers" or let your system forward mail unfiltered into gmail/yahoo.
Here's my hit list of universal things to configure:
* Start with an IP with good or neutral reputation, non-residential, its nearly impossible to fix an IP that has been burned by a spammer. (Network)
* Valid reverse dns for your IP matching your mailhost forward dns (DNS)
* Valid SPF record; -all (DNS)
* Valid DKIM; with sufficiently sized key (DNS+Config)
* Valid DMARC; start with p=none to test and move to p=reject once you're configured (DNS)
* ARC if you or your users will ever possibly forward mail (Config)
* Don't get your messages flagged as spam anywhere ever, filter outbound mail even if its just you. All it takes is one piece of malware and a saved password and you'll have to get a new IP. (Config)
* Don't configure services behind your mail server with example domains that you don't control ~ I get so much mis-configured test mail from people who think its cute to use my domain as an example in their practice lab. It all gets reported as spam or bounces and then their smart host bounce rate goes up. (Config)
* Test for open relay; only relay for authenticated users. (Config)
* Use strong authentication, preferably with certificates or MFA. (Config)
* Secure everything; IMAP/SMTP/POP are old AF make sure you're requiring STARTTLS and setup MTA-STS to prevent downgrade attacks and enforce encryption in transit. Use a real certificate from Lets Encrypt don't self-sign. (DNS+http+Config)
* fail2ban your auth, you're going to get so much driveby password spraying and credential stuffing; I fail2ban block entire subnets at a time with iptables actions. I also have a bunch of "poison pill" rules for weird stuff I see in my logs eg block anyone who tries to auth with the NTLM hash for 'password'. (Config)
* Don't bother with BIMI at home, you can't get a blue check mark without deep pockets and a trademark (vmc) and most platforms only show logos that have a matching vmc. (DNS+https+config)
* DMARC reporting and TLS-RPT reporting are a pain to manage but are helpful troubleshooting deliverability be prepared to read some XML reports or setup a stack to parse them as they arrive (DNS + Config + https)
* setup the SMTP Submission port (587), so many networks block port 25 outbound and its the right way for clients to connect. (Config)
* configure BACKUPS, don't skip this step, encrypted restic backups to s3 or backblaze b2 is cheap and easy. (config)
* track your configs in git, don't commit secrets. (config)
* configure a free blacklist monitor on mxtoolbox for your domain(s) (config)
If you do those things you'll be in a pretty good spot, you could probably paste that list/this post into your agent and vibe up solid mailserver.
For me keeping the spam and phishing out is a bigger hassle than deliverability issues. rspamd does a pretty good job of keeping it manageable.
I do all of those things and with all of that setup the only place I ever run into issues with with users on AT&T's residential broadband mail servers. AT&T appears to block you if you're not known to them and they have a short memory. If you don't have regular correspondence with AT&T users they will block you after a bit. I'm a fairly low volume sender so I end up blocked every other time I try to send to AT&T by no fault of my own. I've talked most of those friends off of AT&Ts free email and on to ProtonMail at this point.
Halifax UK. It just refuses to work so I left it (Graphene is more secure, so forcing less security for the sake of tracking is off the cards). All the other banks so far say they won't work without Google services but if I click OK they work
Not OP, but I've been on GrapheneOS for a few years and I have no problem with Chase, CiT or Wealthfront. I mostly use them to check balances and unlock debit cards, but they all login and function fine.
I don't get how Samba is not there yet. We already have everything in the OS, the UI, the mental model, the protocols, how come it's such a terrible experience that we need to re-invent the wheel in web 2.0.. Maybe we need a Jarred Sumner to fix it.
Is not the same though. It requires downloading the entire shared folder. That doesn't work when I have 100+GB of files and I want to share it with my phone
I have nothing but issues with it, mostly because the iOS/Android apps are notoriously bad at syncing the files timely and also because of ridiculous filename restrictions on Android.
If you dont need filesharing, you can just setup wireguard, setup a network drive on your phone's files app.l, and then when connected it'll feel like native file browsing.
archive.is just asked me for a QRcode scan, I'm so ashame of that crap (it's behind Cloudflare), forcing website visitors to KYC? Are you guys insane!?
the web is ruined if you push for this, this is millions of websites that will suddenly force KYC? What...the...f
By KYC, obviously it's because there is very few non-criminal ways to have a SIM without KYC and get a Google account for Playstore without a number, so every website visits will be attached to a real ID.
I don't use a stock Android, right now I literally can't access many websites, this is genuinely crazy.
Interesting, the text says "reCAPTCHA doesn't share your details with this site", but it says nothing about sharing your details with Google. Which means yes?
Naturally, "Your data is private[ly] and secure[ly stored in plain text on our servers so that it's only accessed by us and shared with the advertising partners we choose]."
For me this archive.is thing has been unusable for a long time already, because they rely on Google Captcha for a long time already and I block Google shit by default. Allowing Google is probably equivalent to showing them your id, due to fingerprinting in the name of "safety". That's why archive.is is not helpful and usually just a tab I close again right away.
I just tried using archive.is on my non-degoogled phone using IronFox instead of Chrome and could not pass the recaptcha. Actually it presented me the mobile attestation on second try, but I was able to switch to images again. But I am also unable to pass that one with the tracking protections built into the browser. Hopefully some 'serious' website starts using this so I can bomb their customer support.
Seriously? I didn't realize this was already happening. FWIW I still got the old captcha testing that site, and I often get flagged and blocked, though it's possible you're doing better.
Google has already been crippling the audio CAPTCHA access for many years. If your trust score is low enough, the visual challenge is ridiculously slow and noisy, and pressing the audio challenge button will just give you an error saying "To protect our users, we can't process your request right now", accessibility be damned. Where are the lawsuits? I want to believe there are still forces that would create hell to pay for doing something so evil, but I'm not seeing any.
Haven't you heard? Accessibility is woke, and the institutions that are supposed to protect it are being dismantled. I wouldn't be counting on those lawsuits going anywhere personally.
i wondered the same earlier and i am pretty sure they are just mimicking cloudflare's validation page. no way that cloudflare is paying reCAPTCHA when they have theor product, turnstile, available.
I think this is just gonna make viewing internet without a phone significantly harder especially with archive.is and the likes.
Not sure, how relevant this is to the discussion but if it helps, I have made a project[0] which allows to archive archive.is pages on archive.org/wayback machine (this uses singlefile)
Perhaps something like this can be used by community at scale too. Also, I hope that archive.is does something to fix this issue of requiring QR code and hopefully it doesn't become a permanent issue.
It's a move to block competitor AI agents while securing access for your own, classic ladder kick. The market for autonomous agents providing services and doing online work will be gigantic so, unless you want your own bots locked out from ie properties guarded by Amazon, CloudFlare, Microsoft etc., you will need a bargaining chip.
As someone that uses AI agents, this makes me want to install a browser plugin for "public windows" that just archives everything I see, and then farms out clicks of content that are missing from those sites.
The result of this would be to upload it all to a bot-friendly alternative to archive.org.
Nice, I understand it is similar to ArchiveBox + its web extension.
Now to be honest, while it's optimal to archive pages from you browser view I am not sure I want a random web extension to be in everything I see from a security point of view.
I would rather have a local proxy doing it. Maybe something like the InternetArchive warcproc [0]. Haven't tried yet.
I would love to see someone challenge this as an anti-trust violation. Google is using its market power (as the provider of reCAPTCHA) to actively prevent devices that don’t use Google Play Services from competing effectively.
It's worse than forcing the Play Services: strict Play Integrity requires your system to be signed by Google. So if you use the Play Services on GrapheneOS, you're still locked out.
They're only doing that because the EU currently doesn't want to antagonize US any more with their tech fines. Noticed how there hasn't been any as of recently?
> April 2025: Apple fined €500 million for failing to comply with "anti-steering" obligations. Meta fined €200 million under the Digital Market Act for requiring users to consent to sharing their data with the company or pay for an ad-free service.
> December 2025: X fined €120 million under the Digital Services Act for breaching transparency obligations.
(Sure, not this year, but that's pretty recent by most standards. And not sure if they're still being contested and unpaid)
Alternative explanation: they're following the Meta playbook of releasing surveillance features during a "dynamic political environment" that's keeping their opponents distracted.
I'm failing to see why they didn't just adopt Private Access Tokens (not that they're great either), where they could have at least:
- pretended that it wasn't all about invading peoples' privacy.
- done a good ol' fashioned "but Apple does it"
- pretended to be standards-oriented
- advertised it as something completely transparent to the end-user
Seems like that would've caused a lot less backlash while still achieving the goal of having some form of device attestation -- but I'm guessing that's not the real goal.
It doesn't fundamentally solve anything. You want to be able to identify a specific person or at least a relatively expensive device so that if you ban them they stay banned.
How you know this is a monopoly is that if you go on their documentation website half the video is how this rolls into Google Analytics.
This is using another product to reinforce the search and ads monopoly.
You can’t scrape content to build a better google or Gemini, you can’t make an OS to compete with Google or Apple, and you can’t make a Google Analytics competitor.
I agree. There are pretty clear grounds here to think about opening an investigation here into illegal tying, or a misuse of market power. Not sure if the FTC maintains a presence on here, but if you're listening...
I have a good friend who doesn't own a cell phone. He's a math professor. Every year he keeps living life without a smartphone, I continue to be more impressed. Things like this makes me feel like he might have to eventually give in. https://archive.is is now serving, via Cloudflare, this QR code backed CAPTCHAs. There seems no way to get past them without a smartphone. Sad times. I wonder at what point even basic government services will essentially require a smartphone.
Eww. Ok, so, I’ve used reCAPTCHA on sites I maintain at work, just on forms to prevent excessive bot spam submissions. No way do I want to subject users to this BS, though. Does anyone have recommendations for other decent captchas that could be used instead?
in my good ol' days I just sent a screenshot to 2captcha for grid of the entire captcha iframe which means that the solvers would have to figure out what to do instead of having to write code for each different type of captcha. to solve their new rotating puzzles I would just capture them at 50% opacity twice and change the prompt to pick the highest brightness object since 50% opacity would dim the moving elements.
This isn't just about weirdos (like me) who run GrapheneOS. Huawei phones don't have Google Play services installed, or Xiaomi phones with MIUI China. That's what, a billion and a half phones that can't get to your website now?
Amazon tablets don't have Google services either, which hints that the upcoming Amazon phones also might not work with this.
If you need access to both apps from China and websites/apps from outside China, non-Apple devices have been difficult before this, primarily due to push notification infrastructure.
This makes it more difficult. But I don’t think it matters given how difficult it was prior to this.
Given the way Google is going I'm not sure if my next phone will be Android. I am fully aware that I am probably in the minority here. For me the trust is entirely gone.
Possibly... but the extension of this to Android and Apple is going to be the entire internet shuts you out. And everything else will be a giant Dead Internet crawling with bots.
The sites that require you to log in are precisely the same ones that are crawling with bots. The personal internet or "small web" is, and still will be, full of real content. There are also lots of bot websites that are trying to be small web, but since it's an actual social network and not a giant pool everyone pours stuff into, they don't get traction. If you do find a website that seems to be human but links to a thousand AIslop sites, you'll stop following that guy's links.
I have to see. As much as I don't like Murena and /e/OS, they seem to have some clout with the EU/EC. Given that they are using microG and also hit by this, they might be able to nudge the EC to act on this.
Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work, I'll just not use somebody's service if they put up barriers like this.
> Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work
If most people care less and less, the result would be that banks and government apps will also work less and less.
Look, companies have to prioritise. And the obvious way to prioritise is to say "users are requesting X A LOT and nobody requests Y, so we will do X". Companies never, EVER say "it would be more ethical to do Y, let's do Y".
As people, we can do two things:
* Push our governments to regulate that shit. That means, complain a lot to the government.
* Be vocal to companies and complain when they don't support your system. If enough people do that, it will be prioritised.
The hardware attestation (which is used by strict Play Integrity) checks the signature on your OS. It is totally possible to allow signatures other than Google, but Play Integrity doesn't do that.
Companies could totally decide to use hardware attestation and accept systems signed not only by Google, but also other systems (like GrapheneOS). But they don't care because not enough users complain to them.
Users of alternative Androids typically silently move to another service or stop using it entirely. Which is understandable but doesn't help the cause.
Both are terrible for privacy so it comes down to which one has a nicer screen now. :(
I'd rather have Google check an Apple phone attestation than have Google check a Google phone attestation, and vice versa, though, because you can assume each company is trying to keep as much information private to themselves instead of giving it to the other. Google is probably just getting "yes it's an Apple phone" and some kind of temporary token, instead of my IMEI, IMSI, phone number, all signed in accounts, biometrics and so on.
Also, Apple sells themselves as a privacy company, but often pick (possibly intentionally) insecure defaults. E.g. you might use end-to-end encrypted chats, but by default iCloud backups are not end-to-end encrypted, so law enforcement can just request your backups/chats from Apple. If you are vigilant and enable Advanced Data Protection for E2E iCloud backups, it probably still doesn't matter because the people that you communicate with probably do not have ADP enabled.
Besides that, they are enshittifying in the same way as Google. Ads in Maps, Ads in applications that you get with the OS (Apple Creator Studio ads in Keynote, etc.), Ads in your system settings for Apple Fitness+ (really).
At least Pixel phones and soon some Motorola models have the option of installing GrapheneOS.
Motorola + GrapheneOS next year could be an alternative. So far they've been relatively insulated from the changes that have been coming down from Google.
Motorola won't change a thing about hardware attestation. GrapheneOS is locked out from reCAPTCHA because GrapheneOS is signed by GrapheneOS and not by Google.
The way it's going, by the time the Motorola + GrapheneOS phone is out, it will be a lot more painful to use GrapheneOS than today. Not because of GrapheneOS of course, but because everybody accepts that bullshit Google is doing.
If you're waiting for Motorola + GrapheneOS, you could start complaining to banks and other apps that don't support GrapheneOS :-). If enough people did that, maybe those companies would consider it.
In the meantime, I'm currently using a low end Motorola moto g 5G 2023 which lets me turn off Play Services. Chrome and the Google Calendar don't run (really do need to find a replacement calendar), and I couldn't be happier. Motorola's interest in GrapheneOS makes me wonder if they did this on purpose.
Or if you need it now, Pixel + GrapheneOS. Pixel A-series are really affordable. E.g. the 9A is 350 Euro here, have great device security (Google Titan M2 hardware security processor, CPU that supports MTE, etc.), pretty good cameras/camera processing, etc.
I'm inclined towards keeping an ancient android for those apps that require it, and maybe something open for actual use. Or perhaps a crappy old android for android and a small non-android tablet/laptop for daily-driver stuff, which always works better as a computer anyway!
I'm also becoming open to using software that lies to google about what it is :) Google will treat us like sh*t, why shouldn't we reciprocate.
Almost completely unrelated, but I recently helped out a very confused family member with deleting not one, but two Google Cloud accounts they had no idea existed, and that they only learned about from an email referencing reCAPTCHA getting integrated into some other Google product offering.
I have absolutely no idea what happened there. My best theory so far is that they clicked on some really, really wrong buttons when solving a captcha themselves while logged in to their Google account in the same browser. Bizarre.
The projects were named after a Google Doc they'd recently worked on (or a .docx attachment they'd received?) though, so my other guess is that they somehow created a Google Docs macro or similar by accident?
Everyone, including Linus Torvalds, who rejected Stallman as too political or ideological, and advocated for "pragmatism" instead, is part of the reason we're where we are today. And it's going to get a lot worse, before it ever gets better.
Even if we accept your premise, laws don't just appear; they are an organized response to a recognized problem. But everyone has been sleeping on the problem lurking in our infrastructure, undermining any impetus to enact such laws. And the people screaming from the mountain top (like Stallman), trying to raise awareness, were routinely mocked and marginalized by those all too happy to accept convenience and expediency, over more sustainable values.
I wish Linus had adopted GPL v3. He had the power to stop this madness from big tech, but he sided with them. It just reveals that he never fully understood the reason for the existence of GPL in the first place.
> He had the power to stop this madness from big tech, but he sided with them.
He (Torvalds) had no power to do anything and sold out. Even if he did, big tech would just go and use BSD.
For over a decade both Torvalds, and Stallman sold everyone out. They don't make their money directly from "free software" or "open source" in the first place.
Stallman was right in that he knew digital surveillance was going to happen, but he was incorrect in believing that FLOSS was ever sustainable economically and especially with AI replacing the developer and that big tech and startups are weaponising that against them.
Even when Stallman is against AI, he doesn't care. He knows he doesn't make money from "free software"; but only by speaking about it. Torvalds is the same but likes AI.
One thing I hope we've all discovered by now is that, if Stallman hasn't been proven right at the present moment, on any topic that touches on libre computing, is that it's only a matter of time until he is
Does anyone know what changed in iOS 16.5 that made Google stop requiring the app? To me it seems to correlate with Private Access Tokens, aka remote attestation by Apple. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/10077/
Possibly. And possibly the fact that breaking experience for iOS users would result in a massive backlash, while the volume of non-iOS/non-Android users is negligible in comparison. Some of them will convert to mainstream OSes, the rest will succumb.
I did something unpopular and just didn't have a captcha, I just read up on creepjs etc and rolled out my own which is just browser state analysis, basic ip check (abuse lists only) and PoW. Haven't had an issue with a single bot registration (yet).
A simple captcha with distorted characters + some hidden form fields would stop every single "opportunistic" bot.
There's hardly anything you can do to stop someone determined enough to spend money to spam your specific website. These kinds of captchas do raise the bar somewhat, but every single one of them is ultimately bypassed by paying people to solve them for you.
GrapheneOS users (and actually just citizen who care) in the EU should complain to the DMA team [1]. As with everything: the more people complain, the higher priority it gets.
You will also see this page if your smartphone is degoogled and you try to open the reCAPTCHA attestation URL in a web browser instead of in Google Play Services.
I don't know why reclaimthenet hasn't embraced the obvious answer: Simply create a new smart device operating system with a fully disentangled cosmos of programs, libraries, APIs, app SDKs, hardware partners, drivers, trust networks, carrier agreements, app stores, documentation, conferences...
> Simply create a new smart device operating system
Why does it have to be new? Plenty of open source OSes exist... starting with Android! GrapheneOS is based on AOSP, you would call it Android. If I show you a phone running GrapheneOS, you probably won't even realise that it's running an alternative OS: it will be Android to you.
The problem is not that we don't have alternative. The problem is that Google is moving towards forcing everyone to run their OS (or the OSes they accept, since it includes iOS) to connect to random stuff on the Internet. They are literally building technology that will prevent alternative OSes from running properly.
No need to create new OSes if anyway they won't work, right?
Same reason as "make another (better) windows" is very difficult - almost everyone wants to be able to run existing apps and drivers, so you're forever playing compatibility catchup with android (or windows).
That's the reason companies are desperate to be first/biggest - once you're it, you're it until you finally fall on your face and dwindle to a nobody.
AOSP is open source. There are plenty of AOSP-based systems (starting with GrapheneOS). No need for a new one.
The thing here is that Google is building technology to prevent alternatives from connecting at all. We fundamentally cannot solve it by building more alternatives, we have to prevent Google (and TooBigTech in general) from doing it.
How about consumers paying a little extra for their device? The way it's going, add sponsored big tech is dieing because click fraud detection is becoming too expensive. Either we give up privacy and track every user, or we let bots have at it, stop targeting ads to users and bill advertisers on bandwidth.
if you think consumers will pay more for the vague notion of privacy i have beachfront property in kansas to sell you. most normies either don't care ("I have nothing to hide ... do you?") or gave up already ("china / the government / big tech / all of the above already have all my data, why would I care if it's a bit more? what are they even going to do with it?" (sometimes, even "i like having relavent ads!")).
at my most pessimistic i can see a world where consumers pay MORE for attestation to continue to opt-in to society, or perhaps a ai-bot-free digital world.
Your privacy is dead, and you cannot do anything against it, except not using phones and internet... at all. I mean I still fight against it, but not by protecting my privacy by using tools, or using different tools, because I realized it's not possible. There is no "as less data as possible". They know regardless.
I used VPN, browser containers for everything, myriad of fingerprinting protection, nothing related to Google/Facebook/etc. And then I went up to Youtube once for something, and they knew exactly what were my thoughts at the time. That was the moment when I realized that I suffered for nothing.
I still support for privacy movements, and I strongly believe that the only place where we can do anything at this point is politics. You can't protect your privacy anymore at this current environment, that ship sailed decades ago.
My problem is that basically every larger for privacy push is against newly proposed laws (like age verification), and there is basically no large uproar regarding the current already fucked up laws.
Sites that use reCAPTCHA/Turnstile/etc. have already been broken for me for years now due to neverending captcha/refresh loops.
My ISP regularly changes everyone's IP, and I apparently share an ISP with people who suck, so I get flagged just trying to do all sorts of normal things. Some examples:
- I've never bought anything from Etsy but I'm somehow banned from even viewing their site at all.
- Discord immediately bans me any time I try to create an account.
- Can't buy flights from Delta, always gives a non-descript error.
- Can't buy concert tickets, it thinks I'm a fraudulent buyer.
- Most CF sites produce a "Sorry, you have been blocked" page, or just loop.
- Trying to buy products on a shopping cart will have my order silently flagged/canceled for "VPN usage" (I don't use one).
- Some sites/programs block me for being on the DroneBL or similar lists I did nothing to get onto, and have verified many times that it's not really coming from me.
I just take my business elsewhere... eventually I'll probably just stop using technology at all.
> Sites that use reCAPTCHA/Turnstile/etc. have already been broken for me for years now due to neverending captcha/refresh loops.
I had this problem recently with the Indeed website. (Cloudflare Captcha)
Thanks to someone on Reddit, it was discovered that anyone using a Chromium based browser (Brave, Vivaldi, etc.) on Linux was being punished.
Awfully frustrating having to set up a Virtual Machine just to be able to access one website via Firefox since even my hardened Firefox was being punished.
That's what Russian underground hackers do to create so called "anti-detect" browsers, which can emulate different browser fingerprints. But they are commercial and closed-source.
That's useless, in fact it makes you stand out even more. There are SDKs that can differentiate based on an awful lot of signals if your user agent corresponds to your actual browser version.
Almost would bet one or a few of your ISP's customers have their connections being used as residential VPNs.
I know people like to think of suspicious android box setups but even a lot of "free" apps, extensions and other such services scarily seem to do that duty these days. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but its sad how many people will use some free of cost vpn and not even think why that might be.
It's not only IP but entire browser stack is being fingerprinted: Javascript, http, tls - everything. I've been living in the SEA region on Linux firefox for the last 10 years and the web has been miserable due to cloudflare and recaptcha
This is why I ended up paying extra for a static IP from my ISP. While they always provided me with a public IP outside a CGNAT, I guess whole IP blocks were being targeted by these web security providers.
I guess my ISP allocates static IPs from a separate pool, and probably my IP block neighbors are better behaved (probably SMBs and other fellow nerds), aside from platforms learning that my IP is safe.
Turnstile feels bad as a user. Every site that I’ve seen it long will lock up Safari hard while it’s doing whatever it’s doing. But at least I haven’t run into more than 2 refresh loops.
Nope, I have tried. Just as suspicious to them if not moreso because it's a datacenter IP and not residential. I even have a list of sites I've tried to visit that were explicitly blocked from datacenter IPs, and that file has over a hundred hosts in it now.
He just told you, he used cloudflare WARP. It's a "VPN" along the lines of NordVPN et al, but by cloudflare, so it gets special treatment by cloudflare's walled garden enforcement system.
I’m guessing it’s all the same effect as CGNAT exit IPs. You need to get big enough to be unblockable. That’s why everyone is trying to get in on the VPN game.
This new reCAPTCHA setup is probably a good indicator that big tech wants to shift to verified access only. Personally, I’m just going to quit spending money via the internet and go back to piracy + retail stores with a physical location.
> Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to affect foreign or domestic affairs, as a more peaceful and rational alternative, or as a less benign adjunct, to warfare.
The parent is musing on the impossibility of Google being held accountable, as the government largely assents to this plan and will ostensibly use it for social control during times of protracted warfare (eg. right now).
Is there a way to just ban all these sites? Like a firefox plugin or whatever that detects this crap, and just bounces over to some place more reputable, like archive.is.
I don't use Android right now and haven't used Google'd Android for almost a decade. And I won't. If this is the hill I die on, so be it.
I'm not going to use any sort of hardware attestation, especially one controlled by Google. You shouldn't either, even if you have an unrooted Google-certified Android phone.
It's all fun until you can't get paid because some fintech app doesn't work. That's why we need regulations. I don't see politicians ever going against an advertising company when they're customers.
Indeed, I generally favor being conservative with regulations because they can genuinely impede progress and can be really hard to change or remove when they're bad, but this is an issue that we need regulation for. It's just too much in the interest of big tech to lock us down and strip us of our freedom of compute. Short of regulation.
Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong.
An easy first step ahead of a full ban would be insisting that hardware attestation never be used as a gate to access government services. Most other things I can vote with my feet, but viewing my tax returns or renewing my passport are things that can only happen in one place.
This is really the most important thing for me. I don’t want to be obligated by law to use some identity or attestation service tied to big tech. I might be ok with my bank handling it because they already require ultimate trust, but not if they simply defer to big tech or implement infrastructure on foreign ccTLDs (id.me, verified.me, etc.).
I’m Canadian and watching our government sell our souls to American tech companies is beyond scary.
Yes, Canadian here also and I feel the same. I'm pretty heavily Googled these days (gmail, gphotos, Pixel 10) and I work for a US tech company, so maybe I'm kidding myself that it matters much for me personally, but I'd be pretty sad if I ever found myself unable to access any level of government service because I didn't have a Google or Apple smartphone that I could point at a QR code on the screen.
One unfortunate aspect of the entire problem: Go back, let's say 10, 15 or 20 years, when forces were a bit more balanced than today. When all these issues were already quite obvious, but probably somewhat easier to solve. The same people that cry loudly today were completely ignoring all these issues. Actively. And when someone came up with them, that guy was just an idi*t, disturbing the good mood. Right? I can still remember all the conversations that I had, or that I read. Today, they'll deny that and still call me an idiot. Anyways...
PS: Sure, there always were a handful of exceptions. If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%.
I saw a lot of people get told they were too dumb to understand how the app stores or Adobe subscriptions were a good value proposition. A lot of people rolled in the mud and now they’re upset their clothes are dirty.
If it didn’t affect those of us that tried to resist, I wouldn’t care, but we got dragged along unwillingly and now it may be impossible to hit the brakes before corporations control everything by usurping control of our identity systems.
"Not using" doesn't make any noise. If you just "don't use", you will just use less and less stuff.
Google doesn't give a shit, but smaller companies are the ones using reCAPTCHA and that kind of shit. Consumers need to complain to those smaller companies. And citizen need to complain to their government, if those case. In the EU there is the DMA: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en.
What's sad is that the few citizen who care are often complaining against regulations. And it is the lack of regulations that got us here. We need antitrust, period.
Developers implement what they are told to implement. People who make those decisions in companies just don't give a damn, they will happily use whatever is easier/cheaper. Usually something from TooBigTech, sponsored by surveillance capitalism.
To be fair, there are already apps that require a mobile phone to sign up, for example, VK, Telegram. And I think Google requires to scan a QR code to register account, so it is easier just to buy a Google account on a black market if you need it for some purpose.
I think you and I move in very different social circles...
I would have no idea how, nor desire to purchase a Google account on the black market, and I do in fact still trust that my web browser can do TLS correctly.
Sure but how do I know that the person I'm buying from legitimately owns the account? Won't scam me? Or try to con me out of my existing account? I'm just saying not everyone is as relaxed about that sort of thing.
VK has been digging its own grave for quite some time now. Hardly anyone uses it any more. It's speedrunning enshittification with that registration thing but also with the very unpopular post redesign, the removal of custom news feeds, and most recently with shutting off most of the API access for third-party apps, including popular client apps like Kate Mobile.
This tyrannical and selfish, evil corporation, needs to be broken down. These are not accidents. Just remember how Google killed off ublock origin via a lie:
I don't know what services a TPM chip does provide. Wild guess, some private keys, hidden to the computer user, are used to sign stuff and/or encrypt ?
We told you. You dismissed it, and thought we were just crazy conspiracy theorists. Too brainwashed by the mainstream propaganda about "threats" to see the truth. Now they're even more emboldened by how much they can herd the sheeple, and showing their actual goals even more clearly.
Spread the news, tell everyone you know, before it's too late. I wish we won't have to resort to even more drastic methods in this fight.
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."
The rebellion will not spread online, in the space controlled by these bastards; but offline, outside of their control. I'm telling everyone I know, and you should too.
A parallel, fully public and accessible internet being widespread and available for anyone with a slight tinkering kick... Could actually be really awesome.
Let the commerce-driven, corporatized hellhole that the modern web has become eat itself.
How do personal blogs deal with the HN hug of death? In this increasingly-utopian vision, I imagine that being more widespread than (paid) DDOS attempts. There won't be any money to be made (banks, Paypal, etc. won't trust the "parallel web") and with the proliferation of synthetic training data I'm not sure how useful a target a bunch of blogs and smallweb sites would be.
> I love the vision, but I do wonder how the parallel internet will deal with DDoS levels of bot traffic.
Something that makes it expensive to initiate a connection and cheap (relatively) to accept or reject would probably help. I think that’s a hard problem though.
> Tor does it by being so painfully slow an unreliable
I do 95% of my web browsing via Tor Browser and it is very tolerable, most circuits are fast enough for 1080p video (Youtube, Twitch livestreams, etc) without any buffering.
Of course this is a single tor circuit with an exit node, so speeds are slower when going directly to .onion sites, but the only real slowness comes from the latency and not throughput.
I’m not talking about the network itself but the servers on the other end.
I guess my point is that while Google is definitely malicious, I don’t think every site using recaptcha is and if we expect them not to use that tool there should probably be an alternative.
I think SV was asking what onion services, which can't really use recaptcha, do to prevent the DDoS storm.
And I would imagine the answer is obscurity, since the dark web isn't nearly as well-mapped as the public web. That and some Anubis or other PoW would probably go far.
TPM with things like Heads are borderline zero security and theater compared to actually decent implementations on Android/iOS platforms, I doubt the big companies would rely on that. TPM in general on non Mac/Chromebook PCs is mediocre even from big OEMs.
For Decades the huge tech companies basically faced no adversity whatsoever. Now for the first time in their existence the massive returned investments in AI they are experiencing ... we will call it pain.
I would say it will be interesting to see what they do but I think rent-seeking, oppression, human rights violations would be more apt.
They were of course trustworthy proviers while they were untouchable but now I know how things are gonna go.
One positive thing about tools like Claude is that I can finally do things where I had originally no time for. For example I asked Claude to debloat windows. Remove everything possible. From firewalls to notepad to uac to whatever. I also asked Claude to root my pixel phone and install another OS. I also asked to install pihole on a old Mac to serve as a dns and block all ads. All this took maybe an hour of my time.
On becoming anti Google, I blocked Google's ASNs (shortcut to block all their IP addresses) on my router the other day as an experiment. It's a little eye-opening.
Obviously you immediately realise just how often you !g in DDG, use Google Flights, YouTube etc. Ok easy enough to fix
Then of course I can't use Play Store (Aurora didn't work either) so my phone would have eventually become quite obsolete
You can't compile many Go projects because the dependencies are pulled from Google
And if you had ALL of Google's ASNs that would include GCP and that's a whole other level of being cut off
After all the surveillance capitalism abuses over the last 2-3 decades of Web, it's a little late to be pushing back, but... should we start shunning individuals from companies who implement this?
Whether it's from companies that create the tech, or companies that use it.
In the orgy of money, we've had a kind of industry-wide sociopathic convention of individual engineers considering it perfectly OK to further surveillance capitalism.
Can we reverse that?
If someone says we can't, because "everyone does it", are they saying that we're a field of baddies?
I had more the thought like being skeptical of anyone who would take a job at company Foo or stay there, when they tell you. To me that seems preferable to trying to -- what risks devolving into -- a witch hunt of fall guys (persons), and doxxing people.
I think we are already starting to have that with a couple more infamous other companies in the news the last year: if someone goes to work there, I suspect a lot of people are going to think what is wrong with you, since you must know that company does very harmful things,
Maybe it's time to start wondering that about anyone who'd work for a lot of additional companies?
(I actually had a recruiter recently who was pitching a startup, and the headline featured the "ex-" pedigrees of the founders, including an especially infamous company. I figured any company touting that pedigree as a selling point is probably a bad fit for me. I thanked the recruiter, but said that infamous company as selling point probably isn't a fit. The recruiter seemed to not only understand, but to agree with my vague sentiment about that pedigree company.)
Please stop calling Android Linux. It's a marketing lie that continues to disappoint, including here. You're holding Linux back substantially by claiming Android is part of it. Just because it has Unix doesn't mean it's Linux as MacOS is also Unix.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as “Android,” is in fact Android/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Android plus Linux kernel.
Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather a kernel—a core component that manages hardware resources. Android uses the Linux kernel, but replaces the traditional GNU userland with its own runtime, libraries, and system framework.
Many users run Linux-based systems every day without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the Linux kernel combined with Android’s userspace is often simply called “Android,” and many of its users are not aware that it is built on Linux at its core.
There really is Linux in Android, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs you run. The kernel is an essential part of the system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system.
Android is normally used in combination with the Linux kernel: the whole system is basically Android/Linux, a Linux-based operating system with a distinct userspace, not a GNU/Linux system like traditional desktop distributions.
My understanding is that this new reCAPTCHA is basically just remote attestation.
Remote attestation doesn't use blind signatures (as that would be 'farmable') so tying the device to the 'attestee' is technically possible with collusion of Google servers: EK (static burned-in private key) -> AIK (ephemeral identity key in secure enclave signed by a Google server) -> attestation (signed by AIK). As you can see if the Google server logs EK -> AIK conversions an attestation can be trivially traced to your device's EK. This is also why we don't really see and probably never will see online services which offer fake remote attestations, as it will be pretty obvious that the next step of running such a service is getting Google as a customer and having all your devices blacklisted. Private farms probably won't last long either as I'm sure Google logs everything and will correlate.
Unless something special is done with this new reCAPTCHA not only are you locking internet services behind TPM chips but you are also surrendering anonymity to Google. Unless you acquire untraceable burners for every service, the new reCAPTCHA will be technically capable to tying all your accounts across all these services together. Much like age verification. It may appear that the service would need to cooperate to link the reCAPTCHA session to your registration but the registration time alone will likely be sufficient (the anonymity set will be all but destroyed).
> Much like age verification
Age verification as a technical concept can be done in a privacy-preserving manner! Whether or not we want age verification is another debate, but let's stop making wrong technical claims about that: it doesn't help.
Divorcing technical detail from how it is used does little good for humanity.
Really, how?
At some point someone will need to issue a key, which at some point will need to be verified against known good signatures.
These signatures will also need to be kept in case of lawsuirs/enforcement, so if somebody gets access they will know you visited that site
The trick is to define "privacy-preserving age verification" in an extremely narrow way that ignores any other privacy concerns.
For example, imagine you put the same private key into the 'secure element' of every single iphone. You use code signing so that key is only unlocked when the phone is running unmodified iOS with all security updates. You use encryption and remote attestation for the front-facing camera and face id depth sensor. You use NFC to read government-authenticated age and appearance data from biometric passport chips (or digital ID cards) and you store it on-device.
Then, when you want to access pornhub, they send an age challenge to your device, your device makes sure your face matches the stored passport, and if so it signs the challenge with the private key.
Pornhub gets an Apple-signed attestation of age - but because every phone signs with challenges with the same private key, Pornhub can't link it to a particular phone or identity document.
So in a very narrow sense, privacy is preserved.
You can't use someone else's ID, as it checks your face every time. You can't fool it with a photo of the person because of the depth sensor. You can't MITM/replay the camera/depth data because the link is encrypted. You can't substitute software that skips the check with a rooted phone because of the code signing. Security holes can be closed by just pushing a mandatory OS update.
Sure, it doesn't work on PCs. Doesn't work on Linux, or on unlocked/rooted phones. It hands users' government ID documents over to Google and Apple. It requires people to carry foreign-made, battery powered, network connected GPS trackers (with cameras, microphones and speech recognition) with them. And there are non-negotiable terms of service everyone must agree to. But if you define "privacy-preserving" to ignore all that stuff and only consider whether Pornhub learns your identity, it's privacy-preserving.
That key will get leaked. A key that has to go into every phone, even if done at the manufacturer and onto the TPM chip, will get out.
Also the TPM chip doesn't really have means to tell the phone isn't lying to it or whether it was transplanted onto another board. It will just happily sign anything as long as everything it can see checks out.
All states/governments have basic records on their citizens and residents, including at least a name, dob, address, etc, at least for a passport, driver's license, if not an actual id card. Let's assume this is acceptable.
Then it's technically possible (and really not that difficult) for states to provide a service that issues zero-knowledge proofs of facts like "age > X".
Ring cryptography does this - given a public key and a set of private keys you can attest that one of the keys signed it but not which one. This lets both Google and you generate a signature and say “this is attested”, without the person verifying it knowing _who_ signed it.
Parental controls on device are a better solution that work today and don't carry a risk of data breach.
They would be a solution if almost all parents used them, but parents don't want to socially isolate their kids since a lot of "social" activity is now on social media. It's kind of a prisoner's dilemma.
There's not necessarily wrong. Despite the vapid and damaging nature of most popular online media, isolating a child from it might have even worse social consequences when their real-life peer groups discover that they're not on social media or that their parents have neutered their phone. Some kids would turn out fine after that. Others would be socially destroyed for life (maybe with the right therapy they could become well-adjusted, but high quality therapy is rare).
> They would be a solution if almost all parents used them
No, they are a solution for parents who want to use them, and that's all they should be. Their existence demonstrates that it's possible to handle this without regulation, other than the desire of some people to inflict their preferences onto other people's kids.
Are they a better solution? Yes
Do they work currently? Not really
Are they too complex for the avg joe to work out. Unfortunately yes. (Something about the smartest bears and the dumbest humans)
It should be possible with zero knowledge proofs.
The problem is that while you might be able to trust the crypto, the government won't trust you to do the crypto entirely by yourself. And this introduces avenues for deanonymisation. Moreover, collusion between the government and the entity making the age check can also theoretically deanonimize.
It's a complicated problem.
We continue to seek a technological solution to a parenting problem.
With cryptography. Look at e.g. Privacy Pass, there is an RFC about it.
https://ageverification.dev/
> Unlinkability is achieved by design through Zero-Knowledge Proof cryptography see the "Privacy by design" section below.
worth noting that google/twitter/facebook/reddit/others colluded to combine sessions, identifiers, so that any person getting identified on any one session / ip would be identified on all
so while this comment is apt, i would ask them what they think of the previous chicxulub impact of the 2012 era collusion - which to this day has not been reported on
(just realized emacs bindings work in comments, nice, no ctrl-x tho)
I was going to ask for more info on this collusion but you say it wasn't reported. And googling "chicxulub" just gives a volcano.
Is this speculation, or has it been confirmed somewhere?
"Chicxulub impact" seems to be functioning as a bit of hyperbole to imply that this collusion was absolutely devastating, by analogy to the K-T extinction event 66 million years ago.
Not that I really can tell what this was devastating to. Maybe United States v. Apple (2012), where Hachette Book Group, Inc., HarperCollins publishers, Macmillan publishers, Penguin Group, Inc., and Simon & Schuster, Inc. conspired with Apple to raise ebook prices?
I can't say for sure, but is it possible they're referring to the founding of the Internet Association in 2012?[0]
I don't think it's that, because the Wikipedia article makes it seem like it was a force for good, but at the time, it wasn't certain at all that it would be that way.[1]
Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what might be meant.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Association
[1] https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/xs4qw/google_facebo...
Colluded how?
If you run a website, it seems trivial to forward the attestation to someone else by putting the same code up on your website, and getting their device banned from google instead of your own.
The domain in the attestation would be yours, so that wouldn't work
How would the phone camera know the domain name of the website displaying the QR code it's scanning?
The camera isn't the part doing that verification. The google service serving that "reCAPTCHA" is what's doing that validation. Unless you're using a custom browser that is reporting a different domain to google than the one requesting the reCAPTCHA, google's service will know which domain is which.
How does the verification app on your phone know what's in the URL bar on your desktop?
The QR code/URL would be generated/requested by the javascript running on the website you're viewing, which knows what's in your address bar.
It would be generated by some other website like Amazon. Because I own, say, Meta, I copy these Amazon-generated codes over to Meta, make people scan them on their phones to sign into Meta and then pass the solution back to Amazon so my bots can sign into Amazon.
We don't yet know how the client side works, perhaps there will be a decompilation posted soon.
It's possible this scenario is acceptable to them because it means they can still tie your access to something that's easier to ban without requiring a full account login.
They're tying my access to random users of a completely different service, and a different random user each time.
What are you implying? That it will become ineffective due to that?
That's possible... and they might change their mind if so, we will see.
I feel like it's a similar issue to when scrapers pretend to be an allowed-origin webpage in order to abuse "public" API keys for web services.
They could also require the mobile device to interact with the requesting webpage in some manner, similar to mutual PIN/codes for Bluetooth/TV pairing these days. That way bulk sharing of the codes would still require active participation from the device that requested it in the first place, likely with a short time limit.
After you scan the code, the verification app asks you "do you want to verify for example.com?"
If you don't verify for example.com you won't be allowed to view example2.com. So do you want to or not?
Some people will notice, some will not
Realistically, what Google will do in such a scenario is collect data about the illicit service, enumerate the devices the farm uses and what other activities the devices participate in. What you suggested has far less control over the devices that generate the attestations and it will show.
Also, if the implementation is competently done the phone will show the website for which you scanned the QR code. A user would be able to see whether or not that matches the site where they observed the QR code and proceed accordingly. In time Google will probably integrate it into the Chrome browser where a proxied QR code cannot even be shown.
Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.
> Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.
Not solved at all: 99.999% of users don't give a damn and use a Google-signed Android.
My opinion is that because they don't give a damn does NOT mean regulations should not protect them. What Google is doing here is anticompetitive and they should be fined (antitrust and all that).
That's great until it's some essential government, medical, educational, etc. service that you have either no alternative to or no alternative that isn't also using the same thing. I'm already being slowly and incrementally softlocked out of some (fortunately non-essential so far) sites either by cloudflare or other more subtle "anti-bot" networks as time goes on, including some like I've listed above. I can only expect this will continue until it's something I can't avoid.
> That's great until it's some essential government, medical, educational, etc. service
At which point you should contact your attorney general, and work to ensure such efforts face legal challenges at every turn.
For some reason, I'm softlocked from booking tickets from Deutsche Bahn. The website errors out with a cryptic "Your browser's behavior resembles that of a bot." message with no option to try again or pass a captcha or whatever. The website itself described several possible solutions but none helped (I tried using different computers, different internet connections, even a phone connected to internet using a SIM from a different country).
As for now, when I need to travel to Germany, I just book tickets through the national carrier of my home country, which for cross-border tickets often turns out to actually be cheaper than booking through DB. Thankfully I don't live in Germany proper and my need for travel there is not that high (once or twice a year at most) but I wonder what would I do if I had to move to Germany and use trains there more often.
Same problem but with French equivalent SNCF (sncf-connect.com). I just checked and can confirm nothing has changed. You cannot use up-to-date Firefox on Linux to access the main booking site for French rail tickets.
With the new reCAPTCHA this is going to happen because most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA. It will be interesting to see whether this makes websites ditch reCAPTCHA or whether they literally just don't care about having customers, an attitude that seems to be getting more and more common every day.
I have been unable to give my money to Home Depot, REI and a growing list of online retailers because they use Akamai EdgeSuite, which just assumes I am a bot and 403s on protected API calls. This happens consistently on any IP and any browser on my Linux desktop/laptop.
There are not enough words to describe how much I hate Akamai EdgeSuite. So many random validation loops and 403s across different physical computers, different operating systems, different connections and even countries. A couple of services I need use it and it's 30% I'll make it past their stupid "protection".
Same, i'm doing a kitchen reno and gave up on Home Depot because of this
It sure makes debugging headers a pain. curl -sLIXGET https://… never mind, that won’t work, _fires up browser yet again_
Home Depot at least has a physical presence, which you can go and directly give some much-needed feedback to.
It has a zero percent chance of reaching anyone who can do anything about it.
You could try handwriting and posting a letter to their CEO. I think that sometimes works. Probably not very often but there are more than zero CEOs who read those letters.
The point is to spread the word.
Maybe they'll figure it out when their revenue drops next quorter or the ones after that?
I was thinking in the same terms: you put up a QR capcha, you don't get my traffic and money. Just the amount of extra work needed, let alone the Google tracking turns me off. As if traffic lights, crosswalks and bridges weren't enough of a hassle.
REI is allegedly a co-op, maybe there's a committee or something it could be presented to?
REI Co-op has an Annual Members Meeting in Seattle, where it announces the results of the board of directors election. The 2026 one happened Feb 5. Apparently the presentation is only 8m long, some saying it's pre-recorded and it's near-impossible for members to submit a question that actually gets answered:
https://www.rei.com/newsroom/article/2026-rei-board-of-direc...
https://www.rei.com/newsroom/article/rei-announces-2026-boar...
https://www.reddit.com/r/REI/comments/1qw14k6/rei_hosts_thei...
Usually that just means the owners of the individual stores are the shareholders.
> most human visitors will actually be unable to pass the CAPTCHA
Most human visitors will never ever notice the change. reCAPTCHA is completely invisible for most human visitors because they are allowed to pass just by fingerprint.
It's not like an average user is going to have to scan a QR code every time they visit a site via web browser. If it were like this then it would be a non-issue because no sane website would adopt this system. But it isn't.
One problem with these things is that businesses have minimal visibility on the amount of users they lose.
On the opposite, if they see reports of many visitors not completing the captcha, they're likely to think "Wow so many bots!!! This defense nowadays is indispensable..!".
Sometimes you need to pass a captcha even to contact them (if you want to tell them that you can't pass their captcha).
I wanted to give money to charity and they have whole form protected by recaptcha. So I would have to allow all my personal information and amount donated sent to google (and agree with google terms for data processing). I have contacted them but they did not understand why this is problem they just wanted to protect themself against bots. IMHO unless those things are not disallowed by antitrust laws we have lost.
We wouldn't want bots throwing money at us!
i say technofeudalism, not sure i know what i'm writing about though
Luckily the marketplace of money will ensure that businesses who block their customers shrink and businesses who don't block their customers grow.
>> whether they literally just don't care about having customers
So every government website. Every website where people simply have no choice (DMV) or where failure to login results in them not claiming the money/benefits they are due (all tax websites). And every website handling post-sale complaints (Airlines, insurance).
I'd love to, but I'd not be able to visit many sites anymore thanks to Cloudflare...
HN uses reCAPTCHA under certain conditions
I've not hit it but that would suck.
So what are you doing here?
> Ask HN: Did HN just start using Google recaptcha for logins? [0]
> dang
> No recent changes, but we do sometimes turn captchas on for logins when HN is under some kind of (possible) attack or other. That's been happening for a few hours. Hopefully it goes away soon.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34312937
Yeah, live in a cave, and problem solved.
However much I hate it, right now among the sites using reCAPTCHA there are many that I strongly want to use.
Let's find a better solution please
> Let's find a better solution please
Is there an argument here that Google is creating a monopoly?
Could this be challenged on similar grounds that forced Microsoft to recommend other browsers to users on Windows?
There is, but at least in the US neither party cares. They want to get rid of anonymity online, one to throw anyone who googles "trans" in jail, and the other because their biggest donors are tech companies that want to denonymize everyone.
Our antitrust laws have been toothless for decades, and both parties love billionaires controlling the rest of us with an iron fist.
GrapheneOS is looking more and more worth the headache that my limited free time generally does not like. I don't need Google to know my smut fanfiction is written by my IRL.
Felt same way about GrapheneOS but a few friends set it up so i gave it a try. It is easy to install and use. As evidence, I gave my 70 year old father one and he loves it.
When my friend was telling me about GrapheneOS I was thinking back to the old days of android custom roms, all the bugs and bullshit, the time I couldn't dial out to 911 because my custom ROM crashes when I did, or other issues. So I gave it a pass.
However he's been on it now for months and every time he shows me something on it I get a little more jealous. Everything seems to be working fine, including e.g. bank apps, and he has interesting features like some kind of app zoning thing limiting permissions on a zone to zone basis.
The only problem is it's only available on massive phones without headphone jacks and SD card slots, so I'm sticking with Xperia for now.
Breathlessly awaiting the upcoming Motorola/Graphene crossover phone.
Can you run Graphene on non Pixel phones?
Not yet. They've partnered with Motorola, though, so we'll probably be seeing some of their phones in the future that can run GrapheneOS.
You can use Lineage [/with microG]
sieabahlpark, I probably hate this more than you, you misunderstood
Stop visiting sites and using services that use reCAPTCHA. Problem solved.
No. Bigger problem created, since there are innumerable government, health care, and educational web sites that use reCAPTCHA.
I'm not going to give up reading the test results from my doctor because of some simplistic ideologue decides that it's "problem solved."
The other problem with this is that there are few CAPTCHA alternatives.
CF turnstile is one, but of course that means Cloudflare owns even more of the web.
HCaptcha is inaccessible and actively discriminatory against individuals with disabilities and refuses to change, to the point that I suspect the only way that they will do anything is to file a class-action against them and sue them into the ground.
And I... Can't think of anything else. Other than to just get rid of Captchas entirely.
The answer that no one likes: make it cost a nominal amount of money.
Enough to make it so bots are expensive to run.
You could just have a custom one that asks domain-specific questions (and ones which will trip up LLMs are not hard to come by.) I've seen a few forums ask such questions for registration, long before the rise of LLMs.
There are other captcha alternatives like Turnstile, for example Private Captcha, Altcha etc. - they are owned by mostly “small” independent companies, they are not visual captchas (proof-of-work based) and very accesssible.
At least in my country (Poland) you should be able to make a pretty bug fuss and resulting in them fixing it, if indeed one of ego services made you leak all your data to Google.
People do care about such things.
I hope the same is true in other EU countries.
Compliance is what makes all that shit possible. Sadly most people are compliant and made so by gradually increasing their dependency on "commodities" which really are anchors to a shit lake.
I agree, and I think CAPTCHA is a disservice on public websites.
> I'm not going to give up reading the test results from my doctor
You could just call them.
Oh just wait, the AI phone service on their side will be more than happy to complete your device attestation key challenge by touch tone. We have to make sure you are still you after all!
But in all seriousness, many services are making it difficult through to impossible to communicate outside of their web or app platforms. Call centres are expensive and messy, and it's now apparently acceptable as a society to treat customers/clients/whatever as adversaries so they can get away with making it hard to communicate with them.
I was unable to book a doctors meeting through the clinic's website, so I declared "screw tech" and called their call center, which still worked better. The app just searched for the "first available spot" and never found anything. If they axe the call center I'm going to have to go to their place.
Or ask for a print out.
When companies like this exist, what is the point of relying of TPM? Looks like the future is bright for VC backed bots
https://doublespeed.ai/
I'm assuming that's a troll / sarcasm / fake... But that could just be my last vestige of faith in humanity.
Edit: aaaand... That's another little sliver of my faith gone : https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/2026/04/how-fake-people...
Yeah, it's real. Say goodbye, faith!
How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta? They clearly violate ToS for profit. This is something I expect to find on a dark web forum where 0days are traded, not in public.
This kind of thing has been common for ages. Obviously AI has kicked it into overdrive, but it’s not darkweb kind of stuff.
Note that they do not mention any specific companies on that landing page. That is pretty intentional.
But realistically going after bots is expensive and rarely successful, so most companies don’t do it. Even if you find the guy, the chances they can be legally reached are pretty low.
> How is this not grounds to be sued into oblivion by Google and Meta?
Because they don't care. It doesn't matter that it's AI slop, it generates views. And Google and Meta can bill advertisers for those views.
Zuckerberg is paying people to put AI slop Shrimp Jesus on facebook. (Not directly to platforms like this, but with the incentive structure)
Really, they're not just cashing in on the views of AI slop being put in front of boomers. They're cashing both ways; While the low end spam industry is merely guessing and iterating on whatever generates views, the more refined spammer does not leave the performance of their latest slop post up to chance, and just uses good old viewbotting. Viewbotting that these days, is mostly done on real devices. Which show ads, to the bots or underpaid developing world workers. Google and Meta'll still charge you for those impressions though.
The losers? People who sincerely try to use these platforms, and whatever idiot businesses are still paying for ads by the impression or click, rather than conversions that immediately generate revenue.
Violating ToS isn't illegal in most cases. Companies just put scary looking clauses in their ToS to discourage you from doing things they don't like.
That's not true of course. There are hundreds of such cases with varying outcomes [0][1][2]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook,_Inc._v._Power_Ventur....
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDY_Industries,_LLC_v._Blizzar....
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_v._Bidder%27s_Edge
Note that all those guys were gotten for breaking the law, not for breaking terms of service.
Why is every startup using that same Serif font now, Garamond or whatever. Is it an LLM design phenomenon? Its kinda ruining that font style for me.
Also $1,500 a month for 10 "influencers" is wild. This doesn't seem that sophisticated unless they're doing something special to increase trust scores of accounts. They say they have "in house warming algorithm" which honestly doesn't inspire confidence for me.
Whats funny is its almost a certainty (if they are doing things correctly) that they have literal farms of phones (probably in SEA). The only real way to keep trust high is to have a real mobile connection and unique devices. Proxies are okay, but you really need to use the apps on real hardware.
I think the font is mimicking old Apple ads, eg: https://i.insider.com/5bf8592eb73c284de50e2f28
Ahh, that makes sense.
Yep. They got hacked in the past, 1k+ smartphones reported.
The cost is the attestation keys of a real phone. Once it gets burned, the phone is useless to them.
https://www.penligent.ai/hackinglabs/inside-the-ai-phone-far...
Interesting article, thanks. I've done a bit of small scale phone farming (for my own cheap mobile proxies). In all reality the phones aren't that expensive, I went with Moto 5gs that cost $130 (retail), so in their case the phones pay for themselves in the first month.
Probably a decent amount of compute cost for video generation, but I'm sure they have access to free compute and inference for being in bed with a16z.
If you are OK with carrier locks (eg if you don't need cell service) and are in the USA, you can actually get mot 5Gs for $30 at walmart. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Straight-Talk-Motorola-Moto-g-202...
Reckless Condensed?
These companies would have to buy one phone per fake influencer.
Wow that is so dystopian.
> My understanding is that this new reCAPTCHA is basically just remote attestation.
Yes, somehow "parse this QR code" would not have made my top 500,000 list of 'tasks that a human can do more effectively than a computer'.
I'm sure some people still remember how to mentally decode QR codes and verify ECDSA signatures from Covid days. Public transit ticket inspectors in my city also seem to be quite proficient at it :)
I don't see any requirement to support hardware attestation in the recaptcha documentation, the Play Services seem to be "enough".
I think it's most likely to be attested by Google remotely; they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone, officially to make better humanity assessments based on it all.
For people using a Google account it probably won't make a huge difference, in terms of data collected.
If that's how it would work, spoofing would probably be theoretically possible, but it would be easy for Google to detect attestations used by multiple people.
Let's not forget that this is an update to a very approximate system, absolute security is not (yet) required.
But there's a good chance that it will be extremely hard to sidestep, despite that.
> I don't see any requirement to support hardware attestation in the recaptcha documentation, the Play Services seem to be "enough".
Doesn't Play Integrity use hardware attestation, but specifically checking the Google keys?
If you use the Play Services on GrapheneOS, you still don't pass Play Integrity because your system is signed by GrapheneOS and not by Google.
> they might be using an app (with enormous access to the phone as the Play Services have) to be able to link a ton of data together, possibly including the local activity on the phone
But anything your phone can possibly do in software can be spoofed, so how would that help?
Shouldn't that be illegal under GDPR?
There are massive exemptions for the prevention and detection of crime
And https://gdpr.eu/recital-49-network-and-information-security-... :
> Recital 49 - Network and Information Security as Overriding Legitimate Interest
> The processing of personal data to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate for the purposes of ensuring network and information security, i.e. the ability of a network or an information system to resist, at a given level of confidence, accidental events or unlawful or malicious actions that compromise the availability, authenticity, integrity and confidentiality of stored or transmitted personal data, and the security of the related services offered by, or accessible via, those networks and systems,...
It's funny how people after all this time think 99 Articles, 173 Recitals and a huge tech lobby equals a water-tight, pro-citizen, impenetrable privacy law with almost no exemptions.
> Google didn’t demand iPhone users install Google software to pass the test.
Can de-Googled Android phones present themselves as iPhones?
Apple has their own remote attestation infrastructure and you will not be able to impersonate an Apple device without extracting private key material from the secure enclave of a legitimate Apple device or compromising Apple certificate authority private keys.
Is this actually available in Safari?
Since iOS 16, apparently
https://blog.cloudflare.com/eliminating-captchas-on-iphones-...
https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=huqjyh7k
Can they present themselves as... web browsers?
Yes, and then they'll get served a QR code that you have to scan on a phone Google approves of.
> People running de-Googled phones chose those setups because they read the data practices, understood what Play Services phones home about, and decided they didn’t consent.
This is wrong. Many (most?) users of alternative Android OSes do use a variant of the Play Services (be it sandboxed Play Services like on GrapheneOS, or an open source, reverse engineered implementation like microG that phones home just the same).
Google seems to be leveraging Play Integrity here, which requires that the phone OS is signed by Google. This is clearly anticompetitive, I hope the DMA will do something about that.
There is a fundamental tension here though - suppose DMA or something requires that online providers recognise reCAPTCHAs from non-Google-attested OS builds. What OSs can they safely trust?
Only ones that are difficult for fraudsters to use to generate bogus traffic. Whether or not those builds come from Google, they are inherently gonna be pretty constrained OSs. It's not gonna let you spoof your location or simulate user input.
I do think it's a problem if only Google can provide these attestations but even if that organisation problem is solved there is still a fundamental technologic problem here now that humans can't be detected by their ability to solve puzzles any more.
Exactly. Imagine them blocking captchas on iphone or windows
I've kept a spare cheap android for too long and recently went with Graphene instead. I have one Google profile and only use it for Uber, work's Google Chat and maps. One bank refused to work (even with Google services) so I moved bank. I've moved most of my mobile use to self hosted (freshrss full text, password manager, calendar, tasks) with no direct internet connection.
It's a bit irritating but I'm glad I started down this journey because it looks more and more like I'm going to be avoiding the internet
> One bank refused to work (even with Google services) so I moved bank
Banks are implementing terrible "security" checks. Users of alternative OSes should be a lot more vocal: change bank, but also complain a lot to the offending one, and make sure to leave them a bad review on the Play Store.
Actually people not using an alternative OS but caring about that should also leave bad reviews to those banks on the Play Store.
At the end of the day, the problem comes from humans in those banks who don't understand and don't give a shit. The only way to make them care about it is to complain enough that it becomes their problem.
When I had a jailbroken iPhone my bank app (HSBC) would detect it and show a warning but let you continue anyway at your own risk, which I thought was a reasonable compromise
My setup is similar and nearly 100% self-hosted, including email, files, AI. If something does not work on Graphene, I will do without it. I also have a Google profile, mostly for testing purposes.
I said it already in another comment, but if you care enough to use GrapheneOS, I believe you should not only "do without it". You should also complain to those services.
If enough people complain, those services will start caring. If all they see is "one user complains every 3 years", they will just ignore it. That's how it works.
Ah yes, google, the company who notoriously doesn’t offer any customer support will definitely make way for such complaints.
How have you managed to accomplish self-hosted email? I tried similar in 2022 and found it damn near impossible without business static IP or a cloud provider.
You can't do it reliably without a static IP in a non residential subnet that lets you set reverse dns. If you have a static residential IP and they don't filter inbound SMTP you can make it work with a smarthost/relay like mailgun. Its not the insurmountable obstacle everyone makes it out to be, but its not going to be free unless you already have an IP that meets the criteria.
If you don't have a static IP you need will want to think about a MX relay service too ~ although mail is surprisingly tolerant of offline MX hosts if you can wait a little bit for your mail.
My approach is to run a VPS with multiple static IPs that I (using Wireguard) tunnel to a number of virtual machines I host at home on a microserver. Conversely, the virtual machines' primary view of the Internet is the opposite side of the tunnel.
I do it self-hosted on a rented VPS, which gets around the IP address issue.
A VPS or cheap dedicated is enough to get the static IP. I have very few problems with email, I use one VPS and one dedicated server though some zealots would argue a vps isn't self hosting
I have access to a commercial (non-residential), fixed IP. You could also use an outgoing relay as a compromise, since presumably the issue you are facing is other servers rejecting email that you send from a disreputable IP. That being said, you really want a fixed IP as a matter of convenience if you are going to self-host anything.
How often are your emails being marked as spam, for others? A few years ago it read like there’s a whole science behind avoiding getting flagged. Is this easier now with agents aiding the setup?
Not the person you replied to, and it's impossible to know with certainty how often you're in someone else's spam, but very rarely.
I had an issue with yahoo a couple of years ago that's all. The "it read like there's a whole science" is sadly a trope mostly repeated by people who have never tried because it gets upvotes on Reedit.
There are some steps you have to take, but not many, and systems like Mox mailserver or stalwart guide you through it, and mail-tester will check if you got it right.
Email, other than tweaking spam filters, is one of my lowest maintenance systems. I can't remember the last time I touched Exim or Mox config
I imagine an agent would make a lot of the first time setup from scratch easier, but the fastest reliable way to get up and running is mail-in-a-box or mailcow. Before those were available I built a flurdy style Postfix+Courier+Amavisd+MySQL setup and have been evolving it ever since. Now I'm on Postfix+Dovecot+rspamd+MySQL but I don't think that's for everyone or even the best way to start.
The science of not getting flagged is easy when you're not sending large volumes of untrusted mail; it only gets complicated if you start hosting mail for "customers" or let your system forward mail unfiltered into gmail/yahoo.
Here's my hit list of universal things to configure:
* Start with an IP with good or neutral reputation, non-residential, its nearly impossible to fix an IP that has been burned by a spammer. (Network)
* Valid reverse dns for your IP matching your mailhost forward dns (DNS)
* Valid SPF record; -all (DNS)
* Valid DKIM; with sufficiently sized key (DNS+Config)
* Valid DMARC; start with p=none to test and move to p=reject once you're configured (DNS)
* ARC if you or your users will ever possibly forward mail (Config)
* Don't get your messages flagged as spam anywhere ever, filter outbound mail even if its just you. All it takes is one piece of malware and a saved password and you'll have to get a new IP. (Config)
* Don't configure services behind your mail server with example domains that you don't control ~ I get so much mis-configured test mail from people who think its cute to use my domain as an example in their practice lab. It all gets reported as spam or bounces and then their smart host bounce rate goes up. (Config)
* Test for open relay; only relay for authenticated users. (Config)
* Use strong authentication, preferably with certificates or MFA. (Config)
* Secure everything; IMAP/SMTP/POP are old AF make sure you're requiring STARTTLS and setup MTA-STS to prevent downgrade attacks and enforce encryption in transit. Use a real certificate from Lets Encrypt don't self-sign. (DNS+http+Config)
* fail2ban your auth, you're going to get so much driveby password spraying and credential stuffing; I fail2ban block entire subnets at a time with iptables actions. I also have a bunch of "poison pill" rules for weird stuff I see in my logs eg block anyone who tries to auth with the NTLM hash for 'password'. (Config)
* Don't bother with BIMI at home, you can't get a blue check mark without deep pockets and a trademark (vmc) and most platforms only show logos that have a matching vmc. (DNS+https+config)
* DMARC reporting and TLS-RPT reporting are a pain to manage but are helpful troubleshooting deliverability be prepared to read some XML reports or setup a stack to parse them as they arrive (DNS + Config + https)
* setup the SMTP Submission port (587), so many networks block port 25 outbound and its the right way for clients to connect. (Config)
* configure BACKUPS, don't skip this step, encrypted restic backups to s3 or backblaze b2 is cheap and easy. (config)
* track your configs in git, don't commit secrets. (config)
* configure a free blacklist monitor on mxtoolbox for your domain(s) (config)
If you do those things you'll be in a pretty good spot, you could probably paste that list/this post into your agent and vibe up solid mailserver.
For me keeping the spam and phishing out is a bigger hassle than deliverability issues. rspamd does a pretty good job of keeping it manageable.
I do all of those things and with all of that setup the only place I ever run into issues with with users on AT&T's residential broadband mail servers. AT&T appears to block you if you're not known to them and they have a short memory. If you don't have regular correspondence with AT&T users they will block you after a bit. I'm a fairly low volume sender so I end up blocked every other time I try to send to AT&T by no fault of my own. I've talked most of those friends off of AT&Ts free email and on to ProtonMail at this point.
If you don't mind me asking, what Bank? I've resolved that this phone will be my last googled phone, and my next will be GrapheneOS.
Halifax UK. It just refuses to work so I left it (Graphene is more secure, so forcing less security for the sake of tracking is off the cards). All the other banks so far say they won't work without Google services but if I click OK they work
Not OP, but I've been on GrapheneOS for a few years and I have no problem with Chase, CiT or Wealthfront. I mostly use them to check balances and unlock debit cards, but they all login and function fine.
Nice that there's bank to move to. We need regulations against such lock ups.
Forced 2FA for banking in the EU is making this worse when it doesn't work
What's the best alternative for Google drive? I also went this route but Samba is a bit annoying sometimes
What makes Samba annoying? I think it's perfect for its intended use (LAN).
If you need to share files externally, Nextcloud works very much like Google Drive and allows the creation of sharable links.
Nextcloud, Samba serving SMB isn't really equivalent.
I don't get how Samba is not there yet. We already have everything in the OS, the UI, the mental model, the protocols, how come it's such a terrible experience that we need to re-invent the wheel in web 2.0.. Maybe we need a Jarred Sumner to fix it.
Nextcloud also has lots of interesting plugins. I recently found a viable Splitwise alternative I chucked on my instance.
Syncthing is very nice.
Is not the same though. It requires downloading the entire shared folder. That doesn't work when I have 100+GB of files and I want to share it with my phone
I have nothing but issues with it, mostly because the iOS/Android apps are notoriously bad at syncing the files timely and also because of ridiculous filename restrictions on Android.
There is Peergos: https://peergos.org (disclaimer: I am the creator)
If you dont need filesharing, you can just setup wireguard, setup a network drive on your phone's files app.l, and then when connected it'll feel like native file browsing.
I only share with one person so we use Seafile
archive.is just asked me for a QRcode scan, I'm so ashame of that crap (it's behind Cloudflare), forcing website visitors to KYC? Are you guys insane!?
the web is ruined if you push for this, this is millions of websites that will suddenly force KYC? What...the...f
https://ibb.co/X9Q6Y84
By KYC, obviously it's because there is very few non-criminal ways to have a SIM without KYC and get a Google account for Playstore without a number, so every website visits will be attached to a real ID.
I don't use a stock Android, right now I literally can't access many websites, this is genuinely crazy.
Interesting, the text says "reCAPTCHA doesn't share your details with this site", but it says nothing about sharing your details with Google. Which means yes?
Naturally, "Your data is private[ly] and secure[ly stored in plain text on our servers so that it's only accessed by us and shared with the advertising partners we choose]."
The water is already boiling and the frog can't get out anymore.
For me this archive.is thing has been unusable for a long time already, because they rely on Google Captcha for a long time already and I block Google shit by default. Allowing Google is probably equivalent to showing them your id, due to fingerprinting in the name of "safety". That's why archive.is is not helpful and usually just a tab I close again right away.
I just tried using archive.is on my non-degoogled phone using IronFox instead of Chrome and could not pass the recaptcha. Actually it presented me the mobile attestation on second try, but I was able to switch to images again. But I am also unable to pass that one with the tracking protections built into the browser. Hopefully some 'serious' website starts using this so I can bomb their customer support.
I thought archive.is were the ones squabbling with Cloudflare (extreme simplification)
Seriously? I didn't realize this was already happening. FWIW I still got the old captcha testing that site, and I often get flagged and blocked, though it's possible you're doing better.
You can still use the audio captcha, but I’m not sure how long that’ll be around.
Google will incur serious lawsuits if they remove that accessibility aspect.
Google has already been crippling the audio CAPTCHA access for many years. If your trust score is low enough, the visual challenge is ridiculously slow and noisy, and pressing the audio challenge button will just give you an error saying "To protect our users, we can't process your request right now", accessibility be damned. Where are the lawsuits? I want to believe there are still forces that would create hell to pay for doing something so evil, but I'm not seeing any.
They'll keep it, but require TPM in each ear.
Haven't you heard? Accessibility is woke, and the institutions that are supposed to protect it are being dismantled. I wouldn't be counting on those lawsuits going anywhere personally.
Sound advice.
i wondered the same earlier and i am pretty sure they are just mimicking cloudflare's validation page. no way that cloudflare is paying reCAPTCHA when they have theor product, turnstile, available.
What? Don't Cloudflare literally have their own CAPTCHA service? Why are they using reCAPTCHA?
They mimic the cloudflare captcha page but they're not hosted by cloudflare.
> https://ibb.co/X9Q6Y84
Wow, This is really bad :-(
I think this is just gonna make viewing internet without a phone significantly harder especially with archive.is and the likes.
Not sure, how relevant this is to the discussion but if it helps, I have made a project[0] which allows to archive archive.is pages on archive.org/wayback machine (this uses singlefile)
Perhaps something like this can be used by community at scale too. Also, I hope that archive.is does something to fix this issue of requiring QR code and hopefully it doesn't become a permanent issue.
[0]: https://smileplease.mataroa.blog/blog/htmlpipe-and-how-we-ca...
It's a move to block competitor AI agents while securing access for your own, classic ladder kick. The market for autonomous agents providing services and doing online work will be gigantic so, unless you want your own bots locked out from ie properties guarded by Amazon, CloudFlare, Microsoft etc., you will need a bargaining chip.
As someone that uses AI agents, this makes me want to install a browser plugin for "public windows" that just archives everything I see, and then farms out clicks of content that are missing from those sites.
The result of this would be to upload it all to a bot-friendly alternative to archive.org.
That exists! Check out Hoardy Web. https://oxij.org/software/hoardy-web/
Its whole point is undetectable archiving because it just saves what your browser already sees.
Nice, I understand it is similar to ArchiveBox + its web extension.
Now to be honest, while it's optimal to archive pages from you browser view I am not sure I want a random web extension to be in everything I see from a security point of view.
I would rather have a local proxy doing it. Maybe something like the InternetArchive warcproc [0]. Haven't tried yet.
- [0] https://github.com/internetarchive/warcprox
I would love to see someone challenge this as an anti-trust violation. Google is using its market power (as the provider of reCAPTCHA) to actively prevent devices that don’t use Google Play Services from competing effectively.
It's worse than forcing the Play Services: strict Play Integrity requires your system to be signed by Google. So if you use the Play Services on GrapheneOS, you're still locked out.
They're only doing that because the EU currently doesn't want to antagonize US any more with their tech fines. Noticed how there hasn't been any as of recently?
> because the EU currently doesn't want to antagonize US any more with their tech fines
Yeah, I say it as "because the US bully the EU to prevent them from doing it".
https://www.cnbc.com/2026/04/10/google-meta-big-tech-6-billi... :
> April 2025: Apple fined €500 million for failing to comply with "anti-steering" obligations. Meta fined €200 million under the Digital Market Act for requiring users to consent to sharing their data with the company or pay for an ad-free service.
> December 2025: X fined €120 million under the Digital Services Act for breaching transparency obligations.
(Sure, not this year, but that's pretty recent by most standards. And not sure if they're still being contested and unpaid)
And recently, Google is working with the EU to avoid a fine: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-06/google-ma...
Alternative explanation: they're following the Meta playbook of releasing surveillance features during a "dynamic political environment" that's keeping their opponents distracted.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/13/technology/meta-facial-re...
I'm failing to see why they didn't just adopt Private Access Tokens (not that they're great either), where they could have at least:
- pretended that it wasn't all about invading peoples' privacy.
- done a good ol' fashioned "but Apple does it"
- pretended to be standards-oriented
- advertised it as something completely transparent to the end-user
Seems like that would've caused a lot less backlash while still achieving the goal of having some form of device attestation -- but I'm guessing that's not the real goal.
It doesn't fundamentally solve anything. You want to be able to identify a specific person or at least a relatively expensive device so that if you ban them they stay banned.
Private access tokens are also a repackaged WEI as far as I'm concerned.
The article mentions that they use Private Access Tokens on iOS, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they're "not adopting" them from
"pretended" ... do they even care any more?
Not Invented Here Syndrome?
This is crossing the line where the governments should step in and ban/fine google heavilly for this monopol behavior
How you know this is a monopoly is that if you go on their documentation website half the video is how this rolls into Google Analytics.
This is using another product to reinforce the search and ads monopoly.
You can’t scrape content to build a better google or Gemini, you can’t make an OS to compete with Google or Apple, and you can’t make a Google Analytics competitor.
It’s plain anti competitive.
The governments are the ones who needs the most. They want to know who all the potential and current dissidents are.
Bingo. Remember all the people on HN who canvassed for consumers to vote with their dollar? Absent-minded consumption is what consumers voted for.
Now everyone pretends like it's monopoly abuse because the Leopards Eating Faces company finally rang the dinner bell.
I agree. There are pretty clear grounds here to think about opening an investigation here into illegal tying, or a misuse of market power. Not sure if the FTC maintains a presence on here, but if you're listening...
Instead, our governments use this crap, meaning on .gov sites too, and impose it upon us.
Oh man as if we still live in those times
"Don't be evil. That's our job."
I have a good friend who doesn't own a cell phone. He's a math professor. Every year he keeps living life without a smartphone, I continue to be more impressed. Things like this makes me feel like he might have to eventually give in. https://archive.is is now serving, via Cloudflare, this QR code backed CAPTCHAs. There seems no way to get past them without a smartphone. Sad times. I wonder at what point even basic government services will essentially require a smartphone.
> https://archive.is is now serving, via Cloudflare
It looks like a cloudflare page but it's not hosted by them. eg. https://bgp.he.net/dns/archive.is#_ipinfo It's hosted by AS49505 JSC Selectel
To add onto this, cloudflare switched away from recaptcha a while ago. https://blog.cloudflare.com/moving-from-recaptcha-to-hcaptch...
I think they now use their own Cloudflare turnstile if I remember correctly, but back then they switched to hcaptcha.
I don't have one either. No plans to get one, even with this.
Eww. Ok, so, I’ve used reCAPTCHA on sites I maintain at work, just on forms to prevent excessive bot spam submissions. No way do I want to subject users to this BS, though. Does anyone have recommendations for other decent captchas that could be used instead?
I run into https://www.hcaptcha.com/ and https://friendlycaptcha.com/ from time to time as a user without complaint. Can't speak to the latter but I've used the former a bit and it does the job.
Any chance for something 100% self-hostable? hcaptcha and friendlycaptcha last I checked require interfacing with their services.
Cloudflare Turnstile, if you're already using Cloudflare (or not!): https://www.cloudflare.com/application-services/products/tur...
Anubis is an alternative to captchas, it's OSS.
hcaptcha is pretty popular these days. It uses a very wide variety of traditional visual puzzles.
in my good ol' days I just sent a screenshot to 2captcha for grid of the entire captcha iframe which means that the solvers would have to figure out what to do instead of having to write code for each different type of captcha. to solve their new rotating puzzles I would just capture them at 50% opacity twice and change the prompt to pick the highest brightness object since 50% opacity would dim the moving elements.
This isn't just about weirdos (like me) who run GrapheneOS. Huawei phones don't have Google Play services installed, or Xiaomi phones with MIUI China. That's what, a billion and a half phones that can't get to your website now?
Amazon tablets don't have Google services either, which hints that the upcoming Amazon phones also might not work with this.
If you need access to both apps from China and websites/apps from outside China, non-Apple devices have been difficult before this, primarily due to push notification infrastructure.
This makes it more difficult. But I don’t think it matters given how difficult it was prior to this.
What's wrong with Apple push notifications in China?
"non-Apple", i.e. Android
The problem is that most popular apps for Android outside Chinese app stores rely on Google services (specifically, Firebase) for push notifications.
Given the way Google is going I'm not sure if my next phone will be Android. I am fully aware that I am probably in the minority here. For me the trust is entirely gone.
There really isn't much of an option. Apple's just as bad if not worse.
At least with an Android i have the option of Graphene, and have access to a terminal, and for now can sideload apps.
With apple there's no choices, so I'll continue to take my chances with Android
Possibly... but the extension of this to Android and Apple is going to be the entire internet shuts you out. And everything else will be a giant Dead Internet crawling with bots.
The sites that require you to log in are precisely the same ones that are crawling with bots. The personal internet or "small web" is, and still will be, full of real content. There are also lots of bot websites that are trying to be small web, but since it's an actual social network and not a giant pool everyone pours stuff into, they don't get traction. If you do find a website that seems to be human but links to a thousand AIslop sites, you'll stop following that guy's links.
It's less about those sites than it is about government services, banking, healthcare, employment, etc
I have to see. As much as I don't like Murena and /e/OS, they seem to have some clout with the EU/EC. Given that they are using microG and also hit by this, they might be able to nudge the EC to act on this.
Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work, I'll just not use somebody's service if they put up barriers like this.
> Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work
If most people care less and less, the result would be that banks and government apps will also work less and less.
Look, companies have to prioritise. And the obvious way to prioritise is to say "users are requesting X A LOT and nobody requests Y, so we will do X". Companies never, EVER say "it would be more ethical to do Y, let's do Y".
As people, we can do two things:
* Push our governments to regulate that shit. That means, complain a lot to the government.
* Be vocal to companies and complain when they don't support your system. If enough people do that, it will be prioritised.
Can Graphene OS pass this kind of Google attestation challenge, though?
No.
The hardware attestation (which is used by strict Play Integrity) checks the signature on your OS. It is totally possible to allow signatures other than Google, but Play Integrity doesn't do that.
Companies could totally decide to use hardware attestation and accept systems signed not only by Google, but also other systems (like GrapheneOS). But they don't care because not enough users complain to them.
Users of alternative Androids typically silently move to another service or stop using it entirely. Which is understandable but doesn't help the cause.
Both are terrible for privacy so it comes down to which one has a nicer screen now. :(
I'd rather have Google check an Apple phone attestation than have Google check a Google phone attestation, and vice versa, though, because you can assume each company is trying to keep as much information private to themselves instead of giving it to the other. Google is probably just getting "yes it's an Apple phone" and some kind of temporary token, instead of my IMEI, IMSI, phone number, all signed in accounts, biometrics and so on.
> Apple's just as bad if not worse.
Could you justify that? Because to me it seems like Apple isn't doing anything even like this.
https://httptoolkit.com/blog/apple-private-access-tokens-att...
Also, Apple sells themselves as a privacy company, but often pick (possibly intentionally) insecure defaults. E.g. you might use end-to-end encrypted chats, but by default iCloud backups are not end-to-end encrypted, so law enforcement can just request your backups/chats from Apple. If you are vigilant and enable Advanced Data Protection for E2E iCloud backups, it probably still doesn't matter because the people that you communicate with probably do not have ADP enabled.
Besides that, they are enshittifying in the same way as Google. Ads in Maps, Ads in applications that you get with the OS (Apple Creator Studio ads in Keynote, etc.), Ads in your system settings for Apple Fitness+ (really).
At least Pixel phones and soon some Motorola models have the option of installing GrapheneOS.
Apple never allowed custom ROMs to begin with, so their device attestation feels more seamless: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102591
Motorola + GrapheneOS next year could be an alternative. So far they've been relatively insulated from the changes that have been coming down from Google.
Motorola won't change a thing about hardware attestation. GrapheneOS is locked out from reCAPTCHA because GrapheneOS is signed by GrapheneOS and not by Google.
The way it's going, by the time the Motorola + GrapheneOS phone is out, it will be a lot more painful to use GrapheneOS than today. Not because of GrapheneOS of course, but because everybody accepts that bullshit Google is doing.
If you're waiting for Motorola + GrapheneOS, you could start complaining to banks and other apps that don't support GrapheneOS :-). If enough people did that, maybe those companies would consider it.
I'll be waiting.
In the meantime, I'm currently using a low end Motorola moto g 5G 2023 which lets me turn off Play Services. Chrome and the Google Calendar don't run (really do need to find a replacement calendar), and I couldn't be happier. Motorola's interest in GrapheneOS makes me wonder if they did this on purpose.
For calendar, I now have my own local setup, with Tailscale
Calendar server: https://radicale.org/v3.html Sync: https://manual.davx5.com/
So, you run Radicale server, you can import Google Calendar.
Set up Davx5 on mobile to sync with the local server
Access from anywhere with Tailscale.
Or if you need it now, Pixel + GrapheneOS. Pixel A-series are really affordable. E.g. the 9A is 350 Euro here, have great device security (Google Titan M2 hardware security processor, CPU that supports MTE, etc.), pretty good cameras/camera processing, etc.
https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...
You won't be alone. I've resolved that this will be my last Googled phone.
My dad runs the family domain/emails/etc. The hard part will be convincing him to degoogle the whole family.
I'm inclined towards keeping an ancient android for those apps that require it, and maybe something open for actual use. Or perhaps a crappy old android for android and a small non-android tablet/laptop for daily-driver stuff, which always works better as a computer anyway!
I'm also becoming open to using software that lies to google about what it is :) Google will treat us like sh*t, why shouldn't we reciprocate.
I've been getting asked more and more how to degoogle stuff by non-nerds.
Android yes, but Graphene is the answer.
Almost completely unrelated, but I recently helped out a very confused family member with deleting not one, but two Google Cloud accounts they had no idea existed, and that they only learned about from an email referencing reCAPTCHA getting integrated into some other Google product offering.
I have absolutely no idea what happened there. My best theory so far is that they clicked on some really, really wrong buttons when solving a captcha themselves while logged in to their Google account in the same browser. Bizarre.
AI Studio playground maybe? It seems all integrated.
They almost certainly didn't use that.
The projects were named after a Google Doc they'd recently worked on (or a .docx attachment they'd received?) though, so my other guess is that they somehow created a Google Docs macro or similar by accident?
probably Google Doc Apps Script, those create so many Google cloud projects
The internet increasingly feels like “prove you’re using the approved computer” instead of “prove you’re human”.
Those two add up to "prove that you allow computer vendors to teach you what 'human' means".
So Stallman was right, after all?
Everyone, including Linus Torvalds, who rejected Stallman as too political or ideological, and advocated for "pragmatism" instead, is part of the reason we're where we are today. And it's going to get a lot worse, before it ever gets better.
I disagree. The reason we are where we are today is the lack of antitrust.
Even if we accept your premise, laws don't just appear; they are an organized response to a recognized problem. But everyone has been sleeping on the problem lurking in our infrastructure, undermining any impetus to enact such laws. And the people screaming from the mountain top (like Stallman), trying to raise awareness, were routinely mocked and marginalized by those all too happy to accept convenience and expediency, over more sustainable values.
I wish Linus had adopted GPL v3. He had the power to stop this madness from big tech, but he sided with them. It just reveals that he never fully understood the reason for the existence of GPL in the first place.
GPLv3 would not prevent remote attestation AT ALL.
> He had the power to stop this madness from big tech, but he sided with them.
He (Torvalds) had no power to do anything and sold out. Even if he did, big tech would just go and use BSD.
For over a decade both Torvalds, and Stallman sold everyone out. They don't make their money directly from "free software" or "open source" in the first place.
Stallman was right in that he knew digital surveillance was going to happen, but he was incorrect in believing that FLOSS was ever sustainable economically and especially with AI replacing the developer and that big tech and startups are weaponising that against them.
Even when Stallman is against AI, he doesn't care. He knows he doesn't make money from "free software"; but only by speaking about it. Torvalds is the same but likes AI.
Can any other developer do exactly that in 2026?
One thing I hope we've all discovered by now is that, if Stallman hasn't been proven right at the present moment, on any topic that touches on libre computing, is that it's only a matter of time until he is
Yes he was.
But his vision/prophecy is about 50 years old and while still valid it probably needs an update.
We are now dealing with a fully networked world where AI/bots have become dominant. I am not sure he did / could go as far in his vision.
Does anyone know what changed in iOS 16.5 that made Google stop requiring the app? To me it seems to correlate with Private Access Tokens, aka remote attestation by Apple. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/10077/
Possibly. And possibly the fact that breaking experience for iOS users would result in a massive backlash, while the volume of non-iOS/non-Android users is negligible in comparison. Some of them will convert to mainstream OSes, the rest will succumb.
I did something unpopular and just didn't have a captcha, I just read up on creepjs etc and rolled out my own which is just browser state analysis, basic ip check (abuse lists only) and PoW. Haven't had an issue with a single bot registration (yet).
A simple captcha with distorted characters + some hidden form fields would stop every single "opportunistic" bot.
There's hardly anything you can do to stop someone determined enough to spend money to spam your specific website. These kinds of captchas do raise the bar somewhat, but every single one of them is ultimately bypassed by paying people to solve them for you.
I imagine GrapheneOS is thinking carefully about their statement on this. I look forward to reading it.
I mean, they could sue for non competitive behavior, but good luck beating Google's lawyers
GrapheneOS users (and actually just citizen who care) in the EU should complain to the DMA team [1]. As with everything: the more people complain, the higher priority it gets.
[1]: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en
I don't even have a smart phone, I assume there is some sort of fallback behavior?
The fallback is that you get redirected to a website helpfully demanding you buy a Google- or Apple-vetted smartphone: https://support.google.com/recaptcha/answer/16609652.
You will also see this page if your smartphone is degoogled and you try to open the reCAPTCHA attestation URL in a web browser instead of in Google Play Services.
I don't know why reclaimthenet hasn't embraced the obvious answer: Simply create a new smart device operating system with a fully disentangled cosmos of programs, libraries, APIs, app SDKs, hardware partners, drivers, trust networks, carrier agreements, app stores, documentation, conferences...
> Simply create a new smart device operating system
Why does it have to be new? Plenty of open source OSes exist... starting with Android! GrapheneOS is based on AOSP, you would call it Android. If I show you a phone running GrapheneOS, you probably won't even realise that it's running an alternative OS: it will be Android to you.
The problem is not that we don't have alternative. The problem is that Google is moving towards forcing everyone to run their OS (or the OSes they accept, since it includes iOS) to connect to random stuff on the Internet. They are literally building technology that will prevent alternative OSes from running properly.
No need to create new OSes if anyway they won't work, right?
Same reason as "make another (better) windows" is very difficult - almost everyone wants to be able to run existing apps and drivers, so you're forever playing compatibility catchup with android (or windows).
That's the reason companies are desperate to be first/biggest - once you're it, you're it until you finally fall on your face and dwindle to a nobody.
AOSP is open source. There are plenty of AOSP-based systems (starting with GrapheneOS). No need for a new one.
The thing here is that Google is building technology to prevent alternatives from connecting at all. We fundamentally cannot solve it by building more alternatives, we have to prevent Google (and TooBigTech in general) from doing it.
and that is gonna be funded by who? anyone who is gonna fund that is gonna want their slice of the pie. we need regulation to keep big tech in line
How about consumers paying a little extra for their device? The way it's going, add sponsored big tech is dieing because click fraud detection is becoming too expensive. Either we give up privacy and track every user, or we let bots have at it, stop targeting ads to users and bill advertisers on bandwidth.
if you think consumers will pay more for the vague notion of privacy i have beachfront property in kansas to sell you. most normies either don't care ("I have nothing to hide ... do you?") or gave up already ("china / the government / big tech / all of the above already have all my data, why would I care if it's a bit more? what are they even going to do with it?" (sometimes, even "i like having relavent ads!")).
at my most pessimistic i can see a world where consumers pay MORE for attestation to continue to opt-in to society, or perhaps a ai-bot-free digital world.
Normies?
Your privacy is dead, and you cannot do anything against it, except not using phones and internet... at all. I mean I still fight against it, but not by protecting my privacy by using tools, or using different tools, because I realized it's not possible. There is no "as less data as possible". They know regardless.
I used VPN, browser containers for everything, myriad of fingerprinting protection, nothing related to Google/Facebook/etc. And then I went up to Youtube once for something, and they knew exactly what were my thoughts at the time. That was the moment when I realized that I suffered for nothing.
I still support for privacy movements, and I strongly believe that the only place where we can do anything at this point is politics. You can't protect your privacy anymore at this current environment, that ship sailed decades ago.
My problem is that basically every larger for privacy push is against newly proposed laws (like age verification), and there is basically no large uproar regarding the current already fucked up laws.
I uh.. I think that was the (sarcastic) point.
Ideally it would be funded by the personal wealth of the people who've profited from the current situation.
Parent is sarcastic
Mobian, PureOS, postmarketOS already exist. Sent from my Librem 5.
Ugh I hate that I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or not.
Sites that use reCAPTCHA/Turnstile/etc. have already been broken for me for years now due to neverending captcha/refresh loops.
My ISP regularly changes everyone's IP, and I apparently share an ISP with people who suck, so I get flagged just trying to do all sorts of normal things. Some examples:
- I've never bought anything from Etsy but I'm somehow banned from even viewing their site at all.
- Discord immediately bans me any time I try to create an account.
- Can't buy flights from Delta, always gives a non-descript error.
- Can't buy concert tickets, it thinks I'm a fraudulent buyer.
- Most CF sites produce a "Sorry, you have been blocked" page, or just loop.
- Trying to buy products on a shopping cart will have my order silently flagged/canceled for "VPN usage" (I don't use one).
- Some sites/programs block me for being on the DroneBL or similar lists I did nothing to get onto, and have verified many times that it's not really coming from me.
I just take my business elsewhere... eventually I'll probably just stop using technology at all.
> Sites that use reCAPTCHA/Turnstile/etc. have already been broken for me for years now due to neverending captcha/refresh loops.
I had this problem recently with the Indeed website. (Cloudflare Captcha)
Thanks to someone on Reddit, it was discovered that anyone using a Chromium based browser (Brave, Vivaldi, etc.) on Linux was being punished.
Awfully frustrating having to set up a Virtual Machine just to be able to access one website via Firefox since even my hardened Firefox was being punished.
Why not just change your user agent string?
Because the site can compare the user agent with navigator.platform, which your browser fills with great care.
That naturally implies we must patch the browser.
"Source code? We don't need no stinkin' source code!"
That's what Russian underground hackers do to create so called "anti-detect" browsers, which can emulate different browser fingerprints. But they are commercial and closed-source.
It probably fingerprints the browser via TLS fingerprinting.
That's useless, in fact it makes you stand out even more. There are SDKs that can differentiate based on an awful lot of signals if your user agent corresponds to your actual browser version.
Almost would bet one or a few of your ISP's customers have their connections being used as residential VPNs.
I know people like to think of suspicious android box setups but even a lot of "free" apps, extensions and other such services scarily seem to do that duty these days. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but its sad how many people will use some free of cost vpn and not even think why that might be.
Yes, I have even seen mobile android games that include notices about a BrightData SDK or HolaVPN etc. where their idle bandwidth is resold.
Does the app function as a proxy? I always assumed that wasn’t possible.
Why wouldn't it be possible? As long as background network access is allowed (the default).
Honest question: Is there anything scary about this apart from lowering your ISP's reputation score?
Yes. What if your connection is used for illegal activity?
It's not only IP but entire browser stack is being fingerprinted: Javascript, http, tls - everything. I've been living in the SEA region on Linux firefox for the last 10 years and the web has been miserable due to cloudflare and recaptcha
This is why I ended up paying extra for a static IP from my ISP. While they always provided me with a public IP outside a CGNAT, I guess whole IP blocks were being targeted by these web security providers.
I guess my ISP allocates static IPs from a separate pool, and probably my IP block neighbors are better behaved (probably SMBs and other fellow nerds), aside from platforms learning that my IP is safe.
Captcha difficulties are way down now.
Turnstile feels bad as a user. Every site that I’ve seen it long will lock up Safari hard while it’s doing whatever it’s doing. But at least I haven’t run into more than 2 refresh loops.
Oh man I feel you. I turn my VPN off on certain sites due to the captcha loop.
I have not been able to visit AliExpress for months now. Just an endless reCAPTCHA loop.
I wonder if they are seeing a decrease in traffic and somehow find that acceptable.
> I just take my business elsewhere...
Mars? /i
Wouldn't a 1£ Linux VM as Wireguard access point suffice?
Nope, I have tried. Just as suspicious to them if not moreso because it's a datacenter IP and not residential. I even have a list of sites I've tried to visit that were explicitly blocked from datacenter IPs, and that file has over a hundred hosts in it now.
whenever I can't access a website for various stupid blocks
I fire up cloudflare warp and walk right through it
use wireguard with wgcf in environments without cloudflare client
yeah it's stupid we have to do this in 2026 but I guess cloudflare is the new AOL garden
You sir seem to have solved a problem many people here have.
Would you care to elaborate a little on how you did it?
It doesn't happen that often to me, but sometimes adblock setup I'm using results in such issues.
He just told you, he used cloudflare WARP. It's a "VPN" along the lines of NordVPN et al, but by cloudflare, so it gets special treatment by cloudflare's walled garden enforcement system.
I wonder if iCloud private relay might also work. Apple probably negotiated some special treatment
I’m guessing it’s all the same effect as CGNAT exit IPs. You need to get big enough to be unblockable. That’s why everyone is trying to get in on the VPN game.
This new reCAPTCHA setup is probably a good indicator that big tech wants to shift to verified access only. Personally, I’m just going to quit spending money via the internet and go back to piracy + retail stores with a physical location.
the fact that this works, as well as cloudflare having a literal web scraping tool available as another product honestly makes my blood boil.
I long ago stopped using any webpage that uses a captcha. If the website uses one, I bounce.
Time for some lawfare!
The Government reviewed the Google situation on behalf of you,
and on behalf of the Government,
and said “data, so piss off”:
https://abcnews.com/Technology/google-hit-antitrust-lawsuit-...
https://macdailynews.com/2026/02/04/u-s-files-appeal-in-goog...
If the masses can somehow point the absolute loose-cannon that is the current President at Google, things might actually change.
In August 2019, Trump tweeted that Google had “manipulated” millions of votes toward Clinton in 2016 and said the company “should be sued.”
Turns out that Presidents, once elected, largely do what Continuity of Government, and business interests, ask for.
Trump has been the least normal of them, and the increasing distrust and suspicion towards Big Tech is largely bipartisan at this point.
warfare*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare
> Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to affect foreign or domestic affairs, as a more peaceful and rational alternative, or as a less benign adjunct, to warfare.
The parent is musing on the impossibility of Google being held accountable, as the government largely assents to this plan and will ostensibly use it for social control during times of protracted warfare (eg. right now).
Its going to be just like the wild days of the late 90s and 2000s
Strap in, the ownage will be hard.
It’s quite easy to remote control an Android phone with an agent (eg there‘s agent-device). I don’t think this will keep automation from happening.
I'm sorry Google, I'm afraid I can't do that.
Is there a way to just ban all these sites? Like a firefox plugin or whatever that detects this crap, and just bounces over to some place more reputable, like archive.is.
It looks like archive.is uses recaptcha so I don’t think that’s the fix you’re looking for.
then we make a new one
I don't use Android right now and haven't used Google'd Android for almost a decade. And I won't. If this is the hill I die on, so be it.
I'm not going to use any sort of hardware attestation, especially one controlled by Google. You shouldn't either, even if you have an unrooted Google-certified Android phone.
It's all fun until you can't get paid because some fintech app doesn't work. That's why we need regulations. I don't see politicians ever going against an advertising company when they're customers.
Indeed, I generally favor being conservative with regulations because they can genuinely impede progress and can be really hard to change or remove when they're bad, but this is an issue that we need regulation for. It's just too much in the interest of big tech to lock us down and strip us of our freedom of compute. Short of regulation.
Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong.
An easy first step ahead of a full ban would be insisting that hardware attestation never be used as a gate to access government services. Most other things I can vote with my feet, but viewing my tax returns or renewing my passport are things that can only happen in one place.
This is really the most important thing for me. I don’t want to be obligated by law to use some identity or attestation service tied to big tech. I might be ok with my bank handling it because they already require ultimate trust, but not if they simply defer to big tech or implement infrastructure on foreign ccTLDs (id.me, verified.me, etc.).
I’m Canadian and watching our government sell our souls to American tech companies is beyond scary.
Yes, Canadian here also and I feel the same. I'm pretty heavily Googled these days (gmail, gphotos, Pixel 10) and I work for a US tech company, so maybe I'm kidding myself that it matters much for me personally, but I'd be pretty sad if I ever found myself unable to access any level of government service because I didn't have a Google or Apple smartphone that I could point at a QR code on the screen.
One unfortunate aspect of the entire problem: Go back, let's say 10, 15 or 20 years, when forces were a bit more balanced than today. When all these issues were already quite obvious, but probably somewhat easier to solve. The same people that cry loudly today were completely ignoring all these issues. Actively. And when someone came up with them, that guy was just an idi*t, disturbing the good mood. Right? I can still remember all the conversations that I had, or that I read. Today, they'll deny that and still call me an idiot. Anyways...
PS: Sure, there always were a handful of exceptions. If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%.
So just to clarify, you also didn't solve anything but you want everyone to know you told them so and you were smarter?
> If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%.
Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait
I saw a lot of people get told they were too dumb to understand how the app stores or Adobe subscriptions were a good value proposition. A lot of people rolled in the mud and now they’re upset their clothes are dirty.
If it didn’t affect those of us that tried to resist, I wouldn’t care, but we got dragged along unwillingly and now it may be impossible to hit the brakes before corporations control everything by usurping control of our identity systems.
Oh, yeah, these discussions as well... Precisely.
Good that some people are able to translate my thoughts into actual English... :D
> Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait
If you say so. I don't know. I was never an active part of that big problem (so btw I also had nothing to "solve"). You were?
The sort of regulation we need for this must be as solid as a constitutional amendment, but that is going to be very, very difficult.
> Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong.
Everyone in power wants it, across the entire globe.
Already happening. The official German identification app, AusweisApp, is designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices
> designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices
That's very different from requiring hardware attestation, though.
It is a little different. But not very different.
No, you can also get it for Windows and Huawei devices. So three American and one Chinese companies. Great.
With Salt Typhoon, that's a whole four ways to choose how China steals your data.
And to think, people said consumer choice was dead...
If it was developed by the government, shouldn't the source or an API be available? Surely third-party apps can be made in that case?
That'd be great but governments often don't make specs and source code available. Governments don't make things open.
The amount of stuff councils and state governments gatekeep about road specs alone... Argh.
"Not using" doesn't make any noise. If you just "don't use", you will just use less and less stuff.
Google doesn't give a shit, but smaller companies are the ones using reCAPTCHA and that kind of shit. Consumers need to complain to those smaller companies. And citizen need to complain to their government, if those case. In the EU there is the DMA: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en.
What's sad is that the few citizen who care are often complaining against regulations. And it is the lack of regulations that got us here. We need antitrust, period.
What do you use instead? iOS?
OK, so what are the alternatives, what can developers use instead?
Developers implement what they are told to implement. People who make those decisions in companies just don't give a damn, they will happily use whatever is easier/cheaper. Usually something from TooBigTech, sponsored by surveillance capitalism.
To be fair, there are already apps that require a mobile phone to sign up, for example, VK, Telegram. And I think Google requires to scan a QR code to register account, so it is easier just to buy a Google account on a black market if you need it for some purpose.
Nobody trusts web browsers nowadays.
I think you and I move in very different social circles...
I would have no idea how, nor desire to purchase a Google account on the black market, and I do in fact still trust that my web browser can do TLS correctly.
I think you can just search 'buy google account' - it isn't illegal.
Sure but how do I know that the person I'm buying from legitimately owns the account? Won't scam me? Or try to con me out of my existing account? I'm just saying not everyone is as relaxed about that sort of thing.
VK has been digging its own grave for quite some time now. Hardly anyone uses it any more. It's speedrunning enshittification with that registration thing but also with the very unpopular post redesign, the removal of custom news feeds, and most recently with shutting off most of the API access for third-party apps, including popular client apps like Kate Mobile.
If there was any remaining doubt whether Google is evil, this settles that yes it is.
This tyrannical and selfish, evil corporation, needs to be broken down. These are not accidents. Just remember how Google killed off ublock origin via a lie:
https://ublockorigin.com/
See the explanation associated with Manifest V3.
Anti competitive behaviour ?
Wait, you need a TPM chip?
I don't know what services a TPM chip does provide. Wild guess, some private keys, hidden to the computer user, are used to sign stuff and/or encrypt ?
We told you. You dismissed it, and thought we were just crazy conspiracy theorists. Too brainwashed by the mainstream propaganda about "threats" to see the truth. Now they're even more emboldened by how much they can herd the sheeple, and showing their actual goals even more clearly.
Spread the news, tell everyone you know, before it's too late. I wish we won't have to resort to even more drastic methods in this fight.
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."
The rebellion will not spread online, in the space controlled by these bastards; but offline, outside of their control. I'm telling everyone I know, and you should too.
Here's the obligatory: Google, FUCK YOU!
And soon desktop OSes will follow, if you don’t have TPM you won’t be able to browse half of the internet.
Not soon, now. The new reCAPTCHA on desktop shows you a QR code for you to scan with your Google-approved phone to prove you have one.
A parallel, fully public and accessible internet being widespread and available for anyone with a slight tinkering kick... Could actually be really awesome.
Let the commerce-driven, corporatized hellhole that the modern web has become eat itself.
I love the vision, but I do wonder how the parallel internet will deal with DDoS levels of bot traffic.
I hear ‘web of trust’ pretty often and I like the idea but that’s not anonymous or accessible either
How do personal blogs deal with the HN hug of death? In this increasingly-utopian vision, I imagine that being more widespread than (paid) DDOS attempts. There won't be any money to be made (banks, Paypal, etc. won't trust the "parallel web") and with the proliferation of synthetic training data I'm not sure how useful a target a bunch of blogs and smallweb sites would be.
> I love the vision, but I do wonder how the parallel internet will deal with DDoS levels of bot traffic.
Something that makes it expensive to initiate a connection and cheap (relatively) to accept or reject would probably help. I think that’s a hard problem though.
Well, how does Tor or other services do it now?
Tor does it by being so painfully slow an unreliable that the only way you would use it is if there is a cocaine-style reward at the end of it.
> Tor does it by being so painfully slow an unreliable
I do 95% of my web browsing via Tor Browser and it is very tolerable, most circuits are fast enough for 1080p video (Youtube, Twitch livestreams, etc) without any buffering.
Here is a speedtest I ran just moments ago, I would hardly consider this "painfully slow": https://www.speedtest.net/result/19172283165.png
Of course this is a single tor circuit with an exit node, so speeds are slower when going directly to .onion sites, but the only real slowness comes from the latency and not throughput.
They get blocked by Recaptcha, I think.
I’m not talking about the network itself but the servers on the other end.
I guess my point is that while Google is definitely malicious, I don’t think every site using recaptcha is and if we expect them not to use that tool there should probably be an alternative.
> They get blocked by Recaptcha, I think.
I think SV was asking what onion services, which can't really use recaptcha, do to prevent the DDoS storm.
And I would imagine the answer is obscurity, since the dark web isn't nearly as well-mapped as the public web. That and some Anubis or other PoW would probably go far.
Proof of work I get, but isn’t that like step2?
If I’m hosting at some IP, I still need Anubis or something to serve up the challenge, so doesn’t that become the attack point?
What a coincidence that Windows 11 makes it a requirement!
TPMs can also be based on free software and our own keys. It works well with Heads and Librem Key.
TPM with things like Heads are borderline zero security and theater compared to actually decent implementations on Android/iOS platforms, I doubt the big companies would rely on that. TPM in general on non Mac/Chromebook PCs is mediocre even from big OEMs.
What happens with Chinese Huawei phones that don’t have Google services?
People can install Google Services in them. Once you sign into google account then you self-certify the device. https://www.google.com/android/uncertified/?pli=1
I think it's possible to run the Play Services in an emulator, faking the device type. Google doesn't seem to use the platform attestation for now.
Treatment is not a cure.
Agreed. I'm just pointing out the possibility (for now).
The gate to the pig pen is closing…
For Decades the huge tech companies basically faced no adversity whatsoever. Now for the first time in their existence the massive returned investments in AI they are experiencing ... we will call it pain.
I would say it will be interesting to see what they do but I think rent-seeking, oppression, human rights violations would be more apt.
They were of course trustworthy proviers while they were untouchable but now I know how things are gonna go.
Isn't reCAPTCHA a spam? This video I watched recently does a nice history and also was enjoyable to watch https://youtu.be/seX_rDEsP6E?si
One positive thing about tools like Claude is that I can finally do things where I had originally no time for. For example I asked Claude to debloat windows. Remove everything possible. From firewalls to notepad to uac to whatever. I also asked Claude to root my pixel phone and install another OS. I also asked to install pihole on a old Mac to serve as a dns and block all ads. All this took maybe an hour of my time.
On becoming anti Google, I blocked Google's ASNs (shortcut to block all their IP addresses) on my router the other day as an experiment. It's a little eye-opening.
Obviously you immediately realise just how often you !g in DDG, use Google Flights, YouTube etc. Ok easy enough to fix
Then of course I can't use Play Store (Aurora didn't work either) so my phone would have eventually become quite obsolete
You can't compile many Go projects because the dependencies are pulled from Google
And if you had ALL of Google's ASNs that would include GCP and that's a whole other level of being cut off
Related:
Google Cloud fraud defense, the next evolution of reCAPTCHA
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48039362
Google Cloud Fraud Defence is just WEI repackaged
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48063199
Heh
After all the surveillance capitalism abuses over the last 2-3 decades of Web, it's a little late to be pushing back, but... should we start shunning individuals from companies who implement this?
Whether it's from companies that create the tech, or companies that use it.
In the orgy of money, we've had a kind of industry-wide sociopathic convention of individual engineers considering it perfectly OK to further surveillance capitalism.
Can we reverse that?
If someone says we can't, because "everyone does it", are they saying that we're a field of baddies?
I agree, wholeheartedly - lets get a list of the google engineers who worked on this. What do you propose we do with it?
I had more the thought like being skeptical of anyone who would take a job at company Foo or stay there, when they tell you. To me that seems preferable to trying to -- what risks devolving into -- a witch hunt of fall guys (persons), and doxxing people.
I think we are already starting to have that with a couple more infamous other companies in the news the last year: if someone goes to work there, I suspect a lot of people are going to think what is wrong with you, since you must know that company does very harmful things,
Maybe it's time to start wondering that about anyone who'd work for a lot of additional companies?
(I actually had a recruiter recently who was pitching a startup, and the headline featured the "ex-" pedigrees of the founders, including an especially infamous company. I figured any company touting that pedigree as a selling point is probably a bad fit for me. I thanked the recruiter, but said that infamous company as selling point probably isn't a fit. The recruiter seemed to not only understand, but to agree with my vague sentiment about that pedigree company.)
Spread the word. They need to be held accountable the same way elected officials are --- except in this case they're not even elected.
Google seems to be putting yet another brick in the garden wall.
[flagged]
We've banned this account. This is an utterly appalling comment.
Please stop calling Android Linux. It's a marketing lie that continues to disappoint, including here. You're holding Linux back substantially by claiming Android is part of it. Just because it has Unix doesn't mean it's Linux as MacOS is also Unix.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as “Android,” is in fact Android/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Android plus Linux kernel.
Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather a kernel—a core component that manages hardware resources. Android uses the Linux kernel, but replaces the traditional GNU userland with its own runtime, libraries, and system framework.
Many users run Linux-based systems every day without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the Linux kernel combined with Android’s userspace is often simply called “Android,” and many of its users are not aware that it is built on Linux at its core.
There really is Linux in Android, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs you run. The kernel is an essential part of the system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system.
Android is normally used in combination with the Linux kernel: the whole system is basically Android/Linux, a Linux-based operating system with a distinct userspace, not a GNU/Linux system like traditional desktop distributions.
The kernel is a Linux kernel. The userspace is very different from a typical Linux distribution.
A fork of it, updated periodically
And let's not pretend that we mean the kernel when we say Linux distribution
Debian also uses a fork that is updated periodically.
Android literally is a Linux distro, though. Like, sure it has a weird userspace and is user hostile, but that doesn't make it not a Linux distro.
linux is a choice, this is not a choice. fairly confident people are rejecting this notion on ideological grounds
> ... and is user hostile,
How so?
It's the punishment for all the times people laughed at calling regular Linux "GNU/Linux".
Unless it was in a previous iteration of the submission's title, I don't see Linux mentioned anywhere.