> sp.h is written in C99, and it compiles against any compiler and libc imaginable. It works on Linux, on Windows, on macOS. It works under a WASM host. It works in the browser. It works with MSVC, and MinGW, it works with or without libc, or with weird ones like Cosmopolitan. It works with the big compilers and it works with TCC.
> And, best of all, it does all all of that because it’s small, not because it’s big.
vs
> Non-goals
> Obscure architectures and OSes
> I write code for x86_64 and aarch64. WASM is becoming more important, but is still secondary to native targets. I don’t care to bloat the library to support a tiny fraction of use cases.
> That being said, if you’re interested in using the library on an unsupported platform, I’m more than happy to help, and if we can make the patch reasonable, to merge it.
Those are contradictory. Either the code is extremely portable, or it can't support "obscure" platforms, but not both.
It's an odd stance for a C library. In my experience, odd platforms are the main place that C is used in 2026. If you're writing a new Windows or Linux or MacOS or WASM program, it's not likely to be in C. But lots of new microcontroller software is still being written in C.
And he's already hit the hard targets. Many obscure OS's are generally UNIX like and should be easy ports. Many obscure arch's usually are running Linux and should be easy ports.
There are very few C libraries which compile, stock, against the matrix of toolchains, ABIs, and operating systems that this library does. For the subset of machines which run, I don't know, 99.9% of all instructions (i.e. x86_64 + aarch64, Linux + Darwin + Windows), the library just works. This is a definition of portability. Why would portability be a binary of supporting every possible system or being hard tied to a single one?
Yeah he doesn't even try to support major platforms like RISC-V. I know there is fragmentation, but best effort attempts at portability would show some sign of goodwill.
I could not even find a mention what platform it supports. There is a Linux example on the bottom. Have never seem a libc implementation that does not even mention for which platforms it is meant.
A comment from a legend. Thanks for reading and thanks for the response! I agree; the dynamic array is typed as a T* for ergonomics sake but is similarly a pointer and a length (and an allocator).
Could I pick your brain a little more on the design? I'm spader at spader.zone; if you have time, drop me an email. I promise not to take too much of your time and I'd love to hear from you.
Zig, one of the giants upon whose shoulders this library stands, coined a name for this
almost-but-not-quite-UTF encoding: WTF-8 and WTF-16. These encodings mean, simply, the
same as their UTF counterpart but allowing unpaired surrogates to pass through.
To give credit where credit is due, both WTF-8 and WTF-16 were devised by Simon Sapin [1] and Zig simply picked them up.
Wait, is a compound literal an l-value in that sense (as opposed to, just being able to take its reference)?! Take a look at the C99 standard Oh my, it indeed is (C99 §6.5.2.5 p5). Good to know!
The WTF name really lies on the surface, there's no authoritative source of its origin.
I have a wtf.c from 10+ years ago when I was re-implementing Windows-style Unicode handling for some project. You keep running into various quirks, which accumulate and you inevitably arrive at your WTF moment. So WTF as name comes up naturally, no special wit required.
First, thanks for sharing this link, it was an interesting read! A few remarks below.
I had a hard time reading the wc code in the article. First I had to go to the GitHub to understand that "da" stands for dynamic array, and then understand that what the author calls wc is not at all the wc linux commands, which by default gives you the number of lines, words, and characters in a file, not the count of occurrences of each word in the file, which is what the proposed code does.
Also, since I had to read the GitHub README, another remark: it says that sp_io uses pthreads rather than fork and exec. Both of those approach (but especially pthreads) are contradictory to the explicit goals of programming against lowest level interfaces. I believe the lowest level syscall is clone3 [1], which gives you more fine grained control on what is shared between the parent and child processes, allowing to implement fork or threads.
By the time you know enough to reasonably use clone3, you have also learned that doing so is an exceptionally bad idea save for very rare circumstances.
I agree that pointer and length is better than null-terminated strings (although it is difficult in C, and as they mention you will have to use a macro (or some additional functions) to work this in C).
Making the C standard library directly against syscalls is also a good idea, although in some cases you might have an implementation that needs to not do this for some reason, generally it is better for the standard library directly against syscalls.
FILE object is sometimes useful especially if you have functions such as fopencookie and open_memstream; but it might be useful (although probably not with C) to be able to optimize parts of a program that only use a single implementation of the FILE interface (or a subset of its functions, e.g. that does not use seeking).
Making every C call a system call is not a good idea at all - think about malloc() etc - the OS shouldn’t care about individual allocations and only worry about providing brk() etc. otherwise, performance will die if you’re doing a thousand system calls per second!
Interesting project! I'm eagerly reading through it.
Probably I would have made different choices. For example, I'd rather have many modules that can be individually included, than one giant file.
Also from a purely aesthetic point of view, I would have opted for more readable function and type names: no sp_ prefix, recognizable names like dict istead of ht, vec instead of da, etc.
And I know there are compilers out there still stuck in the 90s, but I would have targeted C23, these days.
But that would be my highly opinionated library!
P.S. be aware that word frequency is not what the standard 'wc' does.
Works nicely on Linux where the syscall interface is explicitly stable, but on many (most?) other platforms this is not the case.
> There Is No Heap
I don't understand what this means, when it's followed by the definition of a heap allocation interface. The paragraph after the code block conveys no useful information.
> Null-terminated strings are the devil’s work
Agreed! I also find the stance regarding perf optimization agreeable.
Looks like the default allocator uses mmap(2) for every single allocation, which is horribly inefficient - you map a whole PAGE_SIZE worth of memory for every tiny string. Aside from just wasting memory this will make the TLB very unhappy.
It looks like sp_log's string formatting is entirely unbuffered which results in lots of tiny write syscalls.
Thanks for reading. "There is no heap" is meant to say that your mental model of memory shouldn't be one heap from which all memory is pulled. It should be many heaps, owned by many different allocators and providing different semantics. Hence the opinionated stance of the library; there is no allocation function that does not force you to specify the specific heap you want to allocate from. I'm sorry if I didn't explain that well.
As far as the syscall thing, it's actually quite interesting. NT is also extremely stable. Likewise for the stock Darwin syscalls on macOS. In practice, though, Windows loads kernel32.dll automatically, so there's no drawback in using it when appropriate. I still call directly into NT sometimes (mostly to skip complex userspace path translations that aren't useful). On macOS, you are likewise forced to link to libc (libSystem.dylib), and so I usually just end up using the syscall-wrapper libc functions there.
> Works nicely on Linux where the syscall interface is explicitly stable, but on many (most?) other platforms this is not the case.
There is a footnote on this saying as much:
> 3. Where “syscall” means “the lowest level primitive available”. On Linux, it’s always actual syscalls. On Windows, that’s usually NT. On macOS, it’s usually the syscall-wrapper subset of libc because you’re forced to link libc and it’s not quite as open as Linux (although there is a rich “undocumented” set of APIs and syscalls that are very interesting).
The "definition of a heap allocation interface" indicates that there is no standard heap. Instead, there's a standard interface for the use to define their own heaps. Any standard library function that needs to allocate will take a sp_allocator_t parameter, and use that to allocate. As opposed to e.g. strdup, which hard-codes a call to malloc internally. Sp.h's strdup-alike would take an sp_allocator_t as input and call into that to get the memory it needs.
A C++ programmer might describe this as "PMR, but not default-constructible. And std::stable_sort takes a PMR allocator parameter. And PMR is the default, and there's no implementation of std::allocator (or new or delete)."
My impression of the sample programs is that they're unreadably noisy, but maybe this would be a good compiler target if you're writing your own language?
How would you write https://github.com/tspader/sp/blob/main/example/ls.c in your statically typed language of choice? To be fair, this is definitely the kindest example to my library, but one reason I felt this project was worth pursuing was that that example reads basically like a slightly worse TypeScript to me. In other words, quite nice for how low level the code really is.
> I’ve been working on fixing C by giving it a high quality, ultra portable standard library
If the only problem with C was that the stdlib is terrible that would be a very different situation.
There are much more fundamental problems with the language. Problems that are entirely understandable in K&R C but aren't acceptable half a century later. A "high quality" standard library can't fix these problems. In some cases it can paper over them though not others, and even then the actual problem wasn't fixed it's just not obvious with superficial examination any more.
First, the type system is crap. The array types don't work across function boundaries, there's no Empty type at all, you are provided with a user defined product type with names, but not one without names etc. There is no fat pointer type, slice reference, nothing like that.
Second, naming is also crap. There's no namespacing feature provided so you're left with the convention of picking a few letters as a prefix and hoping it doesn't overlap and yet is succinct enough to not be annoying.
Third, everything coerces, all the coercions you could want if you like coercions, and then ten times that many on top. Some people really like coercions, C will see them learn that actually they don't like them that much.
These are all just your personal preferences. Just use another language instead which better matches your taste, nobody forces you to use C and there are plenty of more opinionated alternatives.
FWIW, the standard library being stuck in the K&R era is an actual problem since it doesn't make use of more modern language features and some functions are downright footgun magnets, but nobody quite agrees what a modern stdlib should look like, so a stdlib2 probably will never happen.
Sure but it's definitely true that a significant part of the problem with C is that it's standard library is crap. So if you are forced to use C for some reason this could help.
It's a disadvantage, that it's header-only. It needs to include <windows.h> and a bunch of other stuff, which slow-downs compilation. Splitting it into a couple of files (a header and an implementation) would be much better.
This normally isn't a problem since windows.h and other big system headers are usually only needed in the implementation part, not in the declaration part of the header (this is an STB-style header where the implementation is isolated in an `#ifdef IMPL` section).
Unfortunately though this particular header seems to include the system headers up in the declaration part of the header.
We should have left C in the 90's already, but then FOSS happened,
"Using a language other than C is like using a non-standard feature: it will cause trouble for users. Even if GCC supports the other language, users may find it inconvenient to have to install the compiler for that other language in order to build your program. So please write in C."
C is the only language I found where it is possible to isolate yourself from the "AMAZING" ideas of programming language creators.
There is no language other than C and C++ that is mature enough that you can actually discard the implicit runtime stuff and still be able to code in the language. C++ is too complex in my opinion so I only get to use C as a minimal language.
Even if you look at a language like Zig. You have implicit error trace printing stuff that is inaccurate when using optimized builds, you get a very bad fuzz implementation that doesn't work properly, you get comptime reflection which will be insane in the hands of the people that are writing rust now. Also a bunch of features you would want to use to discard the runtime are not documented/stable.
You can't even use Odin without libc as far as I can understand.
Hare doesn't even have inline asm.
Contrast with using C with clang/gcc where you can do '-nostdinc' '-nostdlib', then implement memcpy etc. and you can do w/e you want after that.
Rust as a nother example is trash for doing low level projects without pulling the 10billion lines of code that comes with using rust like libc/stdlib/binding libaries etc. etc.
You can use libraries that other people built in Rust but doing it yourself takes much more time than doing it in a language like C or Zig.
Another thing is, C is easy to implement. Implementing Rust/C++/Zig or any of the other languages is basically impossible in comparison.
Also I found that C is the only language that you can go into a very big project and open a random file and roughly understand what is going on. This is not possible in any of these other laguages other than Zig and I suspect it will get very bad in Zig when(if) the lower skill level people that are currently writing Rust start moving to writing Zig.
For reference, Dialup Internet (E.G. ~2-3KByte/sec transfer) was NOT uncommon even into the early 2000s.
In 1994 even dialup internet connections were rare and most software distribution occurred by floppy disk (encased in hardshell plastic). _storage_ space was also at a major premium with internal hard disk size indexed in CHS rather than LBA and new (rarely seen by most end consumers) models barely passing 1GB in capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagate_Barracuda
Even in the early 'dot com' era as DSL and early cable modem became common downloading software updates could still be painful, though far less so than hours or days on dialup.
If your code depends on a bunch of initialization from libc, then you should continue to link to and use libc. sp.h can coexist with libc just fine; if you link to it, the library makes sure to conform where it needs to (e.g. not stomping on the register that holds the TLS base pointer).
What sp.h does not do is reimplement all of libc's initialization code. If you want to build a freestanding binary, there are a few utilities in there for defining a _start so the loader can actually jump to your code. But it's not, and isn't meant to be, a libc replacement in this sense.
First, (on unix) it's wrapping pthread mutex. That's part of libc! (Technically it might not be libc.so, but it's still the standard library.)
Also, none of the atomics talk about the memory model. You don't _have_ to use the C11 memory model (Linux, for example, doesn't). But if you're not using the C11 memory model and letting the compiler insert fences for you, you definitely need to have fence instructions, yourself.
While C11 atomics do rely on libgcc, so do the __sync* functions that this library uses (see https://godbolt.org/z/bW1f7xGas) for an example.
Oops... apparently this is vibecoded. Welp, I just wasted ten minutes of my life reviewing slop that I'm not going to get back.
Yes, unfortunately the threading primitives require libc. Ditto subprocesses. It's on my list.
But regarding: "Oops... apparently this is vibecoded. Welp, I just wasted ten minutes of my life reviewing slop that I'm not going to get back."
Do not talk to people like this. I don't care if you don't like the library, or if you found a flaw in it. I am a regular person who wrote this code for no other reason than I thought it would be good to exist. It's unbelievably rude to call it vibecoded slop, or a waste of your life, and it makes me sad that someone who would write an otherwise thoughtful comment would say something like that.
I had half of a manifesto about how C programmers should be embarrassed on account of Zig but I ended up paring it down to be more focused on what the library is plainly.
Zig is obviously incredible and this library would not exist without it being the standard bearer for systems programming in many ways
Have you considered compiling it into a binary of your choice? It works perfectly well as a traditional library. The only cost you pay is re-parsing the header part once per TU. Because C is so simple, this is virtually free. In any case, calling it insane makes me feel disrespected and I would prefer if you didn't do that.
"The library’s stance, to put it simply, that the juice ain’t worth the squeeze when it comes to low level, compute-bound performance.
Designing software and data structures for performance against unknown use cases on unknown hardware is extremely difficult and the resulting code is much more complicated. Even then, it’s often better to use code written against your actual use case and hardware when performance is that critical.
Things that are off the table might be:
SIMD
A highly optimized hash table rewrite
Figuring out where inlining or LIKELY causes the compiler to produce better code."
> Every language that depends on third party libraries, like js and python, is getting massively infected with supply chain worms
> Only couple of languages not affected are those that don't have a culture of downloading third party code, like C and C++
> Ex js and python developer publishes a 'library'
> Library is vibe coded
> Published on github amidst GitHub being hit by supply chain attacks, had their source code leaked.
The timing is terrible for starters, and I don't trust the vibe coded code at all. Imagine a pandemic and the cities are on fire, and you arrive to a rural town asking to kiss people.
> Principles
> Be extremely portable
> sp.h is written in C99, and it compiles against any compiler and libc imaginable. It works on Linux, on Windows, on macOS. It works under a WASM host. It works in the browser. It works with MSVC, and MinGW, it works with or without libc, or with weird ones like Cosmopolitan. It works with the big compilers and it works with TCC.
> And, best of all, it does all all of that because it’s small, not because it’s big.
vs
> Non-goals
> Obscure architectures and OSes
> I write code for x86_64 and aarch64. WASM is becoming more important, but is still secondary to native targets. I don’t care to bloat the library to support a tiny fraction of use cases.
> That being said, if you’re interested in using the library on an unsupported platform, I’m more than happy to help, and if we can make the patch reasonable, to merge it.
Those are contradictory. Either the code is extremely portable, or it can't support "obscure" platforms, but not both.
It's an odd stance for a C library. In my experience, odd platforms are the main place that C is used in 2026. If you're writing a new Windows or Linux or MacOS or WASM program, it's not likely to be in C. But lots of new microcontroller software is still being written in C.
And he's already hit the hard targets. Many obscure OS's are generally UNIX like and should be easy ports. Many obscure arch's usually are running Linux and should be easy ports.
Portability across compilers is orthogonal to portability across target architectures.
There are very few C libraries which compile, stock, against the matrix of toolchains, ABIs, and operating systems that this library does. For the subset of machines which run, I don't know, 99.9% of all instructions (i.e. x86_64 + aarch64, Linux + Darwin + Windows), the library just works. This is a definition of portability. Why would portability be a binary of supporting every possible system or being hard tied to a single one?
Exactly. This shows that "extremely portable" is actually marketing for "It supports a number of platforms. In my opinion, this number is big".
You can be portable, without supporting obscure platforms.
Supporting obscure platforms is what makes portability "extreme", though.
Yeah he doesn't even try to support major platforms like RISC-V. I know there is fragmentation, but best effort attempts at portability would show some sign of goodwill.
That’s a lot of text to say “well ackshually”.
I could not even find a mention what platform it supports. There is a Linux example on the bottom. Have never seem a libc implementation that does not even mention for which platforms it is meant.
https://spader.zone/sp/#null-terminated-strings-are-the-devi...
Pointer/length is not just for strings - but for all arrays.
See my proposal:
https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/C-biggest-mistake.html
A comment from a legend. Thanks for reading and thanks for the response! I agree; the dynamic array is typed as a T* for ergonomics sake but is similarly a pointer and a length (and an allocator).
Could I pick your brain a little more on the design? I'm spader at spader.zone; if you have time, drop me an email. I promise not to take too much of your time and I'd love to hear from you.
[1] https://wtf-8.codeberg.page/
Wait, is a compound literal an l-value in that sense (as opposed to, just being able to take its reference)?! Take a look at the C99 standard Oh my, it indeed is (C99 §6.5.2.5 p5). Good to know!The WTF name really lies on the surface, there's no authoritative source of its origin.
I have a wtf.c from 10+ years ago when I was re-implementing Windows-style Unicode handling for some project. You keep running into various quirks, which accumulate and you inevitably arrive at your WTF moment. So WTF as name comes up naturally, no special wit required.
Thanks! I didn’t know this.
First, thanks for sharing this link, it was an interesting read! A few remarks below.
I had a hard time reading the wc code in the article. First I had to go to the GitHub to understand that "da" stands for dynamic array, and then understand that what the author calls wc is not at all the wc linux commands, which by default gives you the number of lines, words, and characters in a file, not the count of occurrences of each word in the file, which is what the proposed code does.
Also, since I had to read the GitHub README, another remark: it says that sp_io uses pthreads rather than fork and exec. Both of those approach (but especially pthreads) are contradictory to the explicit goals of programming against lowest level interfaces. I believe the lowest level syscall is clone3 [1], which gives you more fine grained control on what is shared between the parent and child processes, allowing to implement fork or threads.
[1] https://manpages.debian.org/trixie/manpages-dev/clone3.2.en....
By the time you know enough to reasonably use clone3, you have also learned that doing so is an exceptionally bad idea save for very rare circumstances.
I agree with most of the criticisms they make.
I agree that pointer and length is better than null-terminated strings (although it is difficult in C, and as they mention you will have to use a macro (or some additional functions) to work this in C).
Making the C standard library directly against syscalls is also a good idea, although in some cases you might have an implementation that needs to not do this for some reason, generally it is better for the standard library directly against syscalls.
FILE object is sometimes useful especially if you have functions such as fopencookie and open_memstream; but it might be useful (although probably not with C) to be able to optimize parts of a program that only use a single implementation of the FILE interface (or a subset of its functions, e.g. that does not use seeking).
Making every C call a system call is not a good idea at all - think about malloc() etc - the OS shouldn’t care about individual allocations and only worry about providing brk() etc. otherwise, performance will die if you’re doing a thousand system calls per second!
Null terminated strings have some merits but they should be a completely different data type like in Freebasic.
Interesting project! I'm eagerly reading through it.
Probably I would have made different choices. For example, I'd rather have many modules that can be individually included, than one giant file.
Also from a purely aesthetic point of view, I would have opted for more readable function and type names: no sp_ prefix, recognizable names like dict istead of ht, vec instead of da, etc.
And I know there are compilers out there still stuck in the 90s, but I would have targeted C23, these days.
But that would be my highly opinionated library!
P.S. be aware that word frequency is not what the standard 'wc' does.
> Program directly against syscalls
Works nicely on Linux where the syscall interface is explicitly stable, but on many (most?) other platforms this is not the case.
> There Is No Heap
I don't understand what this means, when it's followed by the definition of a heap allocation interface. The paragraph after the code block conveys no useful information.
> Null-terminated strings are the devil’s work
Agreed! I also find the stance regarding perf optimization agreeable.
Looks like the default allocator uses mmap(2) for every single allocation, which is horribly inefficient - you map a whole PAGE_SIZE worth of memory for every tiny string. Aside from just wasting memory this will make the TLB very unhappy.
It looks like sp_log's string formatting is entirely unbuffered which results in lots of tiny write syscalls.
Thanks for reading. "There is no heap" is meant to say that your mental model of memory shouldn't be one heap from which all memory is pulled. It should be many heaps, owned by many different allocators and providing different semantics. Hence the opinionated stance of the library; there is no allocation function that does not force you to specify the specific heap you want to allocate from. I'm sorry if I didn't explain that well.
As far as the syscall thing, it's actually quite interesting. NT is also extremely stable. Likewise for the stock Darwin syscalls on macOS. In practice, though, Windows loads kernel32.dll automatically, so there's no drawback in using it when appropriate. I still call directly into NT sometimes (mostly to skip complex userspace path translations that aren't useful). On macOS, you are likewise forced to link to libc (libSystem.dylib), and so I usually just end up using the syscall-wrapper libc functions there.
> Works nicely on Linux where the syscall interface is explicitly stable, but on many (most?) other platforms this is not the case.
There is a footnote on this saying as much:
> 3. Where “syscall” means “the lowest level primitive available”. On Linux, it’s always actual syscalls. On Windows, that’s usually NT. On macOS, it’s usually the syscall-wrapper subset of libc because you’re forced to link libc and it’s not quite as open as Linux (although there is a rich “undocumented” set of APIs and syscalls that are very interesting).
The "definition of a heap allocation interface" indicates that there is no standard heap. Instead, there's a standard interface for the use to define their own heaps. Any standard library function that needs to allocate will take a sp_allocator_t parameter, and use that to allocate. As opposed to e.g. strdup, which hard-codes a call to malloc internally. Sp.h's strdup-alike would take an sp_allocator_t as input and call into that to get the memory it needs.
A C++ programmer might describe this as "PMR, but not default-constructible. And std::stable_sort takes a PMR allocator parameter. And PMR is the default, and there's no implementation of std::allocator (or new or delete)."
My impression of the sample programs is that they're unreadably noisy, but maybe this would be a good compiler target if you're writing your own language?
How would you write https://github.com/tspader/sp/blob/main/example/ls.c in your statically typed language of choice? To be fair, this is definitely the kindest example to my library, but one reason I felt this project was worth pursuing was that that example reads basically like a slightly worse TypeScript to me. In other words, quite nice for how low level the code really is.
> I’ve been working on fixing C by giving it a high quality, ultra portable standard library
If the only problem with C was that the stdlib is terrible that would be a very different situation.
There are much more fundamental problems with the language. Problems that are entirely understandable in K&R C but aren't acceptable half a century later. A "high quality" standard library can't fix these problems. In some cases it can paper over them though not others, and even then the actual problem wasn't fixed it's just not obvious with superficial examination any more.
First, the type system is crap. The array types don't work across function boundaries, there's no Empty type at all, you are provided with a user defined product type with names, but not one without names etc. There is no fat pointer type, slice reference, nothing like that.
Second, naming is also crap. There's no namespacing feature provided so you're left with the convention of picking a few letters as a prefix and hoping it doesn't overlap and yet is succinct enough to not be annoying.
Third, everything coerces, all the coercions you could want if you like coercions, and then ten times that many on top. Some people really like coercions, C will see them learn that actually they don't like them that much.
These are all just your personal preferences. Just use another language instead which better matches your taste, nobody forces you to use C and there are plenty of more opinionated alternatives.
FWIW, the standard library being stuck in the K&R era is an actual problem since it doesn't make use of more modern language features and some functions are downright footgun magnets, but nobody quite agrees what a modern stdlib should look like, so a stdlib2 probably will never happen.
Sure but it's definitely true that a significant part of the problem with C is that it's standard library is crap. So if you are forced to use C for some reason this could help.
It's a disadvantage, that it's header-only. It needs to include <windows.h> and a bunch of other stuff, which slow-downs compilation. Splitting it into a couple of files (a header and an implementation) would be much better.
This normally isn't a problem since windows.h and other big system headers are usually only needed in the implementation part, not in the declaration part of the header (this is an STB-style header where the implementation is isolated in an `#ifdef IMPL` section).
Unfortunately though this particular header seems to include the system headers up in the declaration part of the header.
We should have left C in the 90's already, but then FOSS happened,
"Using a language other than C is like using a non-standard feature: it will cause trouble for users. Even if GCC supports the other language, users may find it inconvenient to have to install the compiler for that other language in order to build your program. So please write in C."
The GNU Coding Standard in 1994, http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/standards_7.html#SEC12
C is the only language I found where it is possible to isolate yourself from the "AMAZING" ideas of programming language creators.
There is no language other than C and C++ that is mature enough that you can actually discard the implicit runtime stuff and still be able to code in the language. C++ is too complex in my opinion so I only get to use C as a minimal language.
Even if you look at a language like Zig. You have implicit error trace printing stuff that is inaccurate when using optimized builds, you get a very bad fuzz implementation that doesn't work properly, you get comptime reflection which will be insane in the hands of the people that are writing rust now. Also a bunch of features you would want to use to discard the runtime are not documented/stable.
You can't even use Odin without libc as far as I can understand.
Hare doesn't even have inline asm.
Contrast with using C with clang/gcc where you can do '-nostdinc' '-nostdlib', then implement memcpy etc. and you can do w/e you want after that.
Rust as a nother example is trash for doing low level projects without pulling the 10billion lines of code that comes with using rust like libc/stdlib/binding libaries etc. etc.
You can use libraries that other people built in Rust but doing it yourself takes much more time than doing it in a language like C or Zig.
Another thing is, C is easy to implement. Implementing Rust/C++/Zig or any of the other languages is basically impossible in comparison.
Also I found that C is the only language that you can go into a very big project and open a random file and roughly understand what is going on. This is not possible in any of these other laguages other than Zig and I suspect it will get very bad in Zig when(if) the lower skill level people that are currently writing Rust start moving to writing Zig.
For reference, Dialup Internet (E.G. ~2-3KByte/sec transfer) was NOT uncommon even into the early 2000s.
In 1994 even dialup internet connections were rare and most software distribution occurred by floppy disk (encased in hardshell plastic). _storage_ space was also at a major premium with internal hard disk size indexed in CHS rather than LBA and new (rarely seen by most end consumers) models barely passing 1GB in capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagate_Barracuda
Even in the early 'dot com' era as DSL and early cable modem became common downloading software updates could still be painful, though far less so than hours or days on dialup.
That sounds like GNU reacted to the problem rather than causing it.
How does this library work in programs with parts still requiring libc?
How does it deal with code executing before main? Libc does a bunch of necessary stuff, like calling initializers for global variables.
If your code depends on a bunch of initialization from libc, then you should continue to link to and use libc. sp.h can coexist with libc just fine; if you link to it, the library makes sure to conform where it needs to (e.g. not stomping on the register that holds the TLS base pointer).
What sp.h does not do is reimplement all of libc's initialization code. If you want to build a freestanding binary, there are a few utilities in there for defining a _start so the loader can actually jump to your code. But it's not, and isn't meant to be, a libc replacement in this sense.
Just taking a quick look at the atomics section:
First, (on unix) it's wrapping pthread mutex. That's part of libc! (Technically it might not be libc.so, but it's still the standard library.)
Also, none of the atomics talk about the memory model. You don't _have_ to use the C11 memory model (Linux, for example, doesn't). But if you're not using the C11 memory model and letting the compiler insert fences for you, you definitely need to have fence instructions, yourself.
While C11 atomics do rely on libgcc, so do the __sync* functions that this library uses (see https://godbolt.org/z/bW1f7xGas) for an example.
Oops... apparently this is vibecoded. Welp, I just wasted ten minutes of my life reviewing slop that I'm not going to get back.
Yes, unfortunately the threading primitives require libc. Ditto subprocesses. It's on my list.
But regarding: "Oops... apparently this is vibecoded. Welp, I just wasted ten minutes of my life reviewing slop that I'm not going to get back."
Do not talk to people like this. I don't care if you don't like the library, or if you found a flaw in it. I am a regular person who wrote this code for no other reason than I thought it would be good to exist. It's unbelievably rude to call it vibecoded slop, or a waste of your life, and it makes me sad that someone who would write an otherwise thoughtful comment would say something like that.
> Oops... apparently this is vibecoded. Welp, I just wasted ten minutes of my life reviewing slop that I'm not going to get back.
you interested in project and spent some time researching it, but stop when understand that it is vibe-coded (be it or not)?
Why care if it is interesting to you?
Bun and Anthropic wants to know your location.
This doesn't look good:
since There should be a fallback for very long paths.Can you show me a realistic case with a longer path?
I love how hyper-opinionated this is.
Thank you!
Family saying: "It ain't bragging if you can do it."
When one is competent to work at this level, strong opinions are in order.
Their correctness is something I cannot gage. I'm barely competent to follow the conversation.
Best library name.
Thank you, but why's that?
not one mention of Zig on the whole page?
I had half of a manifesto about how C programmers should be embarrassed on account of Zig but I ended up paring it down to be more focused on what the library is plainly.
Zig is obviously incredible and this library would not exist without it being the standard bearer for systems programming in many ways
We should port the zig std lib as a c lib
DJB was saying similar things in the 1990s -- eg https://cr.yp.to/proto/netstrings.txt
Thanks for reading and thanks for the link. I'll read anything DJB wrote.
How do they all know that it is vibe-coded? I missed the meeting where they were handing out vibe-code-detectors?
Please, describe..
P.S. sad to see that HN becomes a witch hunting place
Yeah, AI has done a number to this place
I do not want to include and compile a standard library for every file that includes it.
Why do standard library headers always have to be insane?
Have you considered compiling it into a binary of your choice? It works perfectly well as a traditional library. The only cost you pay is re-parsing the header part once per TU. Because C is so simple, this is virtually free. In any case, calling it insane makes me feel disrespected and I would prefer if you didn't do that.
"The library’s stance, to put it simply, that the juice ain’t worth the squeeze when it comes to low level, compute-bound performance.
Designing software and data structures for performance against unknown use cases on unknown hardware is extremely difficult and the resulting code is much more complicated. Even then, it’s often better to use code written against your actual use case and hardware when performance is that critical.
Things that are off the table might be:
SIMD A highly optimized hash table rewrite Figuring out where inlining or LIKELY causes the compiler to produce better code."
LOL...
Classic vibe coder.
> Every language that depends on third party libraries, like js and python, is getting massively infected with supply chain worms
> Only couple of languages not affected are those that don't have a culture of downloading third party code, like C and C++
> Ex js and python developer publishes a 'library'
> Library is vibe coded
> Published on github amidst GitHub being hit by supply chain attacks, had their source code leaked.
The timing is terrible for starters, and I don't trust the vibe coded code at all. Imagine a pandemic and the cities are on fire, and you arrive to a rural town asking to kiss people.
Thanks for this comment, I was about to bookmark the repo for later you saved me the time.
Wonderful !
Yet another slop coded library.
What could possibly go wrong...