In Russia, they claimed that new measures to block websites are necessary to protect the children online. Of course, they immediately used these new capabilities to block opposition websites and sources critical of the government.
Now, seeing many European governments tirelessly push for these new measures to protect the children, I'm pretty sure that the children are finally going to be safe online.
It is really disheartening to see the sentiment around privacy erode like this. Fifteen or even ten years ago this would have been unanimously and vehemently opposed, but now it is somehow up for debate?
There has been 15 more years of highly motivated psychologists tuning their social media systems to create addiction, time for those who've grown up through this to become adults, foreign interference with democracy etc.
Though I think banning it for children is the wrong approach. Ban the addictive and dangerous features for everyone, adults included — no more infinite scroll, and no more feeds showing content from outside social connections.
> no more feeds showing content from outside social connections
So, kill all news agencies and reporters I guess? or would there be a carve out for incumbents so they can cement their market share? who controls the approval list?
> Every reader, at least from the same city, gets exactly the same content
That alone is a value add people don't realize even as they're losing it: it created a shared reality you and locals inhabited, that you could have a conversation about.
If a social media feed is purely social, news agencies have no more right to be there than to force themselves onto your table in a pub or a board games group.
Even if you want expand from social and allow commercial activity on them, it should still only be whoever you actually chose. It's not like Fox News can interrupt a BBC News broadcast on TV, or The New York Times can substitute itself for your normal copy of The Cambridge News: you chose what source you get, not an algorithm. (And there is a specific named editor to blame if some false story gets in that wasn't checked first for actually being true).
This is far more to do with different people having different definitions for what constitutes a genocide with one very well funded minority group having a large stake in their version being the accepted one.
We've had time to witness the damage of a dopamine-doomscroll. I personally know children who've posted too much, and children who've been solicited directly by adults, both to try and meet and for nudes. And we've seen the complete lack of positive action from platforms. Roblox is full of paedophiles and Grok was letting you nudify your classmates just a few months ago. These places aren't suitable for kids.
I don't want a ban on VPNs. That isn't being suggested, just making sure they're also age-checked. But some inconvenience is a price worth considering.
I love how every harm you listed, is a platform design problem, and your fix touches none of it. A kid bypassing VPN age checks can still doomscroll and Roblox all day on a school wifi with no VPN at all. The only thing you've actually accomplished is stripping privacy and security from every adult who isn't a child abuser, to feel like you did something about the ones who are.
I don't believe proving I'm an adult to Meta will deprived me of any further privacy than I've already surrendered. What security do you feel I'll lose?
These "platform design problems" are features for some adults. If they want to pour their life into being radicalised by a neverending, bias-confirming, slop-filled doom scroll, that's their choice, isn't it? Outright prohibition is far more fraught both politically and technically.
Blocking 100% of kids isn't required to prevent harm. The key is finding the optimum balance.
You've already surrendered your privacy to Meta, sure, this has nothing to do with Meta. This is your VPN, the one thing you use because you don't trust your ISP or the wifi you're on, now wanting your real ID before it works. A kid doesn't even need a VPN to doomscroll on school wifi anyway. And "let adults radicalize themselves, their choice" is rich when those adults vote and raise kids and show up swinging at school board meetings. Congrats on the policy that needed my ID and did nothing to the kid two desks over.
You're lost. The whole basis of this discussion is that is that certain services (porn, social media) will have to AV. A kid having open network access doesn't help because they still have that interface to overcome.
Services that enable circumvention is a natural extension. Yes that means going through the same verification process you do with pornhub with your VPN host.
Completely by-the-by, your school networking experience is notably different from mine. Ours are locked down. Kids don't get access on their own devices. They whitelist domains, Google has educational filters, etc, etc. Could somebody red team their way through it? Maybe. Kids aren't.
Sure, deep analysis of my usage, connection, browser user agent, browser fingerprinting, etc could reveal who I am and that information can all be correlated if requested by Government agencies although my privacy isn't completely surrendered on an alt/fake name account.
I have a Facebook account primarily for Market Place under a completely fake name. I very rarely comment on things on Facebook, but it feels good knowing that my real name is not being posted. From a glance, Meta cannot confirm this account is owed by Joe Blogs.
Requiring ID (which is what age gating is) for VPNs is absurd. Given that SSH can act as a proxy service, are you going to require all ssh connections out of the country to be age verified?
I'd be surprised if the law requires much beyond a vague best effort from service providers, but many already block connections from known server hosts and some even VPNs.
An airtight block is not what's required; stopping social media being mainstream for kids is.
Lol, no. Face scans are being bypassed using video games. Meanwhile the data has shown 90%+ porn users are unwilling to do them and switch sites instead (citation: https://pornbiz.com/post/17/the_scam_of_age_verification ). The whole thing has been a complete fiasco in porn.
Maybe they should get the pedos out of the government instead of a foolish attempt at restricting and harming everyone else? It's not ever going to protect or make children safer. It never was.
Nope. The burden is on whoever wants to restrict people. If you want a new restriction, the burden is on you. If you want to keep an existing restriction, the burden is still on you.
> But some inconvenience is a price worth considering.
You're trying to frame it as an "inconvenience" and not a blatant attack on the fundamental freedom of expression. I get that social media is bad, but sometimes (often) the cure is worse than the illness.
> I personally know children who've posted too much, and children who've been solicited directly by adults, both to try and meet and for nudes.
... but not in that way.
I personally knew children who'd been solicited directly by adults before there was even an Internet. Including me, if you use the definition of "child" that seems to be popular in this sort of debate (and, by the way, it wasn't a big deal).
They've somehow managed to breed several generations who's only criteria for "computing" is "it just works". All consumption, little-to-no understanding of how stuff works. As long as it does what it does, and it's "free", that's all that matters.
"And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Keir Starmer. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent."
> disheartening to see the sentiment around privacy erode like this
Coders went from being civically active—calling their electeds and showing up to events to defend privacy in the 90s—to being comfortably rich and content with maybe voting in generals. That’s had a direct effect on policy quality.
The glasses might be too rosy, I doubt people would’ve fought that much “ten or fifteen years ago”. The general public never gave much thought to privacy, security, or freedom of choice when it came to tech.
In terms of political power, programmers are more like yeomen than peasants. Yeomen have power due to their essential skills because if a good fraction of them stopped working the system would collapse. (Whereas if peasants stop working, they just starve.) If a sufficient number of programmers said "We're not going to implement or support privacy-invading systems" the government would have to back down.
Sadly, your faith is entirely quixotic. Like all other segments of society, there’s always a cohort willing to do anything - regardless of ethics, legality or morality. They are entirely nihilistic, not giving a shit about anything or anyone. And it only takes a small number of such people to do great harm.
If you are talking about the recent blockades of VPNs, the Russians made it pretty clear that they did not want western information sources inside the country. I am not sure it was ever in the guise of protecting the children
The first law about building technical and legal infrastructure to enable website blocking in Russia in 2012 was passed under the name of children protection. Everything else is an addition.
People from duma (the russian parlament) also publicly stated it would never use it for anything but children protection.
Same with Iran, they clearly said that their control of internet access it prevent Western influence, as a national security issue. China did something similar with their firewall.
I personally think the era of free and unrestricted Internet is coming to an end. All the nations in the West are following suit, including Canada with the introduction of C-34.
The only (probably) good thing here is that one can at least try to apply Russian experience at circumventing the censorship, where it's currently way more severe, up to the point when entire companies have their workflows disrupted because remote workers can't connect through the VPN (which is blocked). Maybe that will help.
You see, the problem is that all exit points of our VPNs are in Europe. These too can be banned quite easily. Where to will we run next, given that this cancer tends to spread?
Change the protocols, I guess? Move to some kind of self-hosted or community-run infrastructure? Because to block all of that (EDIT: to block that reliably, I mean), you will have to block the entire EU network sector, and we're likely not in "V for Vendetta" or full-blown 1984 scenario for this to be possible.
Let me tell you how it has been in Russia during last 15 years. WE saw targeted blocks that apply after cease and desist letters. Later they learned to block outgoing OpenVPN and wireguard for everybody except firms who applied to a special registry. Then they learned to cut Vless and Trojan and blocked all sites behind freaking Cloudflare due to ECH v3.0 enforced. Here also go proxies (specifically for Telegram'm MTProto) and other stuff like Quic.
The point is if they start — they can proceed way further than you can imagine now.
I know all of that. I'm a native Russian speaker and I have quite a lot of Russian friends, I'm pretty well aware of the situation. Nevertheless, despite all the government’s efforts and the enormous amount of money invested in this, there are still - at least for now - ways to bypass the blocks even there. I suspect that as long as they don’t physically cut the cables, there will always be ways to circumvent censorship. And yes, I’m not talking about carrier pigeons :)
So I hope that in the UK and other European countries, by drawing on Russia’s existing experience, people will be able to adapt to these restrictions before they become too severe. Of course, the government could also adopt Russia’s approach right away, but that’s unlikely, as it would provoke far too much resistance from citizens - they aren’t used to that level of restriction. If Europe does indeed continue moving in this direction, everything will happen gradually, just as it did in Russia; no one will roast a frog with a flamethrower - they’ll cook it according to the classic recipe, so to speak.
OK, got it. But it's important to remember that avoiding restrictions gets harder and harder every year. You have to juggle several protocols, have backup proxies, think about TLS nuances, keep in mind that you are being tracked after all. Lots of casual users just gave up. It's not like we find a solution and it just works — one has to adapt to new restrictive measures continuously.
I just don't understand why some other people in such discussions still think that its only about children and weigh pro and cons when they have an actual example of all these things being implemented.
> But it's important to remember that avoiding restrictions gets harder and harder every year.
Yes, that's right. Now the only reliable protocols to communicate with my friends in Russia seem to be e-mail ones like SMTP, because everything else constantly gets interrupted if not blocked completely. The only thing we can hope for here is that sooner or later, that hell will finally end; we just need to do what we do.
> I just don't understand why some other people in such discussions still think that its only about children and weigh pro and cons when they have an actual example of all these things being implemented.
Maybe I'm being kind of rude, but to me that seems just like... for the lack of better words, it seems like they're in denial. In a psychological sense, I mean.
Maybe I'm being kind of rude, but to me that seems just like... for the lack of better words, it seems like they're in denial. In a psychological sense, I mean.
There's a larger phenomenon than simple denial at work. Infantilization of adults is a necessary component of fascism. We are told, implicitly, that we are all the children of the state. Those who accept that message -- and there will always be some -- will embrace the protection promised by authoritarianism.
The actual children are, as always, just along for the ride.
Which will get blocked and go down, like, in no time. That's literally what happened in Russia - Tor is mostly unusable, you can't even bootstrap properly without some "tricks", so to speak.
Don't know, I use tor every day in Russia. Without it Internet would be unusable. The only problem I see is how to get initial distribution since the tor site is blocked.
Hmm... That's interesting. Maybe that depends on ISP, because my friends have told me they can't use Tor because they can't even bootstrap, even if they're using bridges.
I changed ISPs when moved from one city to another, no difference. Yes, there were several episodes when connecting required about half an hour of playing changing setting but eventually I could connect. Nowadays it seems that the government abandoned their efforts to block Tor traffic and mainly focused on blocking VPN and Telegram.
Now that (abandoning the efforts to block Tor so now it mostly works) sounds like some good news to me! Can you please share your settings or what exactly you use that works for you? Perhaps they will help my friends, too, because previously, they relied on Tor to circumvent the "network blockade", but it just stopped working for them at some point. And yes, they tried to play with settings as well but it didn't really help.
By the way, the level of ban enforcement can also vary from region to region regardless of ISPs (at least that's what I heard from some people), but anyway...
It would be more like WWII-era Deutsche Welle, given who runs Starlink. Sites offensive to the Minister of Mechapropaganda might find themselves filtered.
You seriously think the government has a clear, honest reasons, as stated?
Companies will be exempt (with remote employees having to identify linking their IP and computer's fingerprint with their real identity), and the next step, after using the law to silencing dissent, will be penalisation.
Then I should assume that your "inference" ignores common sense, because nowhere in my comments was I praising some governments, either Russian or European, for their action. I merely pointed out that now, probably, some people from Europe may try to apply Russian experience at circumventing censorship, bans and "network blockades". That's a good thing in the context of this whole situation, because you don't have to figure everything out on your own, from the ground up - you already have some practical examples, researches, and, what's more important - allies. Maybe I'm dramatizing a bit here, but the way was already paved out - you just have to follow the path.
Now could you, please, show to me where exactly was I saying something positive about governments?
From my personal point of view and from my own experience, you have to look for positives if it's possible. The fact that you're still alive is already a positive, even if you're underground taking cover from bombshells and thinking that you may die tomorrow. If you're not looking for positive, you will loose your will to live and, eventually, you will die. Maybe that's making me look too optimistic, but for me that's literally the matter of survival. Sorry if my position was not clear from the beginning.
The excuses used by a propagandising dictatorship (for basically everything they do not just this) wouldn't be effective propaganda if they didn't touch a percieved need.
Even as adults, many find Facebook and Twitter in particular to be repugnant, and use them anyway as an addiction. LinkedIn is more the butt of jokes about how everyone is excited by their new future even when they're newly looking for work, but at least they have minigames now.
YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok have a reputation for funelling people into conspiracies, but IDK if that's totally fair or them getting painted with the same brush in a moral panic.
> seeing many European governments tirelessly push for these new measures to protect the children, I'm pretty sure that the children are finally going to be safe online
There is strong, popular will for age gating social media. At the same time, at least in America, there is a deep streak of laziness and nihilism in the tech community that makes it civically useless. When combined, you get politicians getting calls every day to limit social media and little from experts on how.
So you get folks reaching for the first solution on the shelf, and then getting wedded to it. The correct approach is making this the social-media companies’ problem. If they wind up with users under N years old, they get fined. If you want to use social media, you put up with their BS. If not, you’re not affected. Unfortunately, I’ve worked on privacy and technical policy enough to be sceptical that anyone will actually pitch that to their elected. So we get this, instead. (And at the end of the day, I’ll take an imperfect solution over a perfect one that goes nowhere. Though the UK, as usual, seems to have found the worst of the bunch.)
The UK government have at least made it clear that they intend to ban right wing media and parties that aren't aligned.
A leaked strategy document from UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer's chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney, outlined their "Kill Musk's Twitter" to diminish the platform through advertiser pressure and regulatory action
Shortly after the Online Safety Act went into operation, there was politically charged/sensitive/opinionated content on X mysteriously disappearing for UK users but nobody else in the world.
Yeah. The children are just the excuse. They hate us for our freedome.
Nobody is surprised that Russia resorts to this. They are a potemkin dictatorship. But that the UK is also acting as a dictatorship - now that's interesting.
Non-nationalist parties that have been in power in Europe for so long are shitting their pants at the growing rise of nationalist parties and are absolutely planning to censor the shit out of them.
I'm not even taking a side here and what they are trying to do is obvious.
Somehow the "center"'s answer to the rise of right-wingers is stupid censorship, instead of fighting ideas with better ideas.
Alternatively, the center starts trying to attract right-wing voters by adopting right-wing ideas like anti-immigrant views or "well, we can sacrifice the climate a bit more" positions.
Keir Starmer is from a "left" party but his actions has shown him to be a centrist, Ursula von der Leyen is quite right. Then again, these are European positioning, as someone's said years ago, the European right-wing would be liberal in the US. And with the currently openly racist regime of the USA, even more so!
They will establish censorship laws to try to stem the tide only to be surprised Pikachu face when inevitably at some point in the future one of these right wingers will win and then use all these things against them. No one ever learns.
How is that happening? In the UK fringe nationalist parties are typically given as much airtime on main stream media as the governing parties. They've also setup their own 'news' stations to further spread propaganda. Any notion that they're being censored in the UK is ludicrous. They're pandered to.
This isn't an axis from freedom to control, with the country sitting at an identifiable point. All of these things are happening, antagonistically, at the same time. Right wing people set up a television station, government cracks down on the internet, courts protect people's rights to express philosophical beliefs, police record "non-crime hate incidents" for things written online. It's all chaotic.
But there’s no evidence that the UK government is going to disproportionately censor right wing parties on the internet either. It’s just a false analysis to link this possible age gating of VPNs with censorship of the political right.
Banning under 16s from social media is de-facto censorship of political views outside of those promulgated by mainstream media, and as the mainstream media in this country tends to be urban-liberal in orientation, this will have an effect. Perhaps the people who set up GB News were prescient to do so.
As other posters have pointed out, the mainstream media in the UK give Reform an incredibly easy time. Their leader is openly corrupt, but this barely merits a mention. Do you really think Keir Starmer is thrilled by the idea of young people getting their impression of him from current mainstream media reports? This just isn’t a plausible analysis.
(Also, it’s worth noting that the Conservatives support the same policy, and Reform support the principle while opposing the means.)
>> "My kids grew up under 24/7 adulting and had nowhere to go."
> Yes but this has nothing to do with cars. What are you even protecting kids from anyway?
It has everything to do with cars. Once my kids cross the yard, in all directions are the risk from cars, the risk of trespassing charges and that's about it.
In a few generations, kids went from countless square miles of free roam area to the few sq ft of their own property.
It's easy to blame the governments in this - and some of their decisions are idiotic - but most of the blame should go on the tech companies. The fact they think "our ToS says you have to be over 13" or a popup asking "are you over 18" is sufficient while they make billions is a disgrace. They're the reason the governments are sinking to these levels. It's not like they haven't been given every opportunity to do the sensible thing over decades.
Also the UK arrests people for online posts more than Russia, China or Belarus. It seems clear the gov wants to control all forms of speech and if they could control speech at home they would too further, I have little doubt if they could control your thoughts they would too. They’d be more than delighted to have people wear shock collars that shock wearers as they stray from received though patterns.
> the UK arrests people for online posts more than Russia, China or Belarus
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You’ve made an unsubstantiated assertion. I won’t hold my breath waiting for any references to support your ridiculous claim.
Now, there is one big issue for a couple of countries and that's that Russia and China probably don't report on the same level as the UK and Germany though for the UK, not all jurisdictions returned an answer, so the stats are likely higher for the UK. Then again in Russia, you can comment all you want if you avoid the one subject, well, maybe two subjects.
Interesting. I suspect that in Russia and China there’s a fair bit of self-censorship going on as a result of their restrictions. Which implies that if the UK proceeds down this path, there would be a lagging drop in arrests (once people get the hint after a few well publicised incidents).
I also do not believe that this is primarily aimed at ptotecting children. I think the goal is to counteract the bot-farms that spread disinformation, instigate violence, and so on. Which Russia, by the way, pioneered and scaled up to make a material difference in elections in the West. It is a real problem for which no effective solution has been found.
> Ms Kendall told Nick Ferrari: “I told MPs yesterday I'm going to come back to the House with a statement on the issue of VPNs in July. There are very strong views on both sides of this. For some people, it is about privacy, and it is the ability to use that is really held strongly by people. And for others, they say they should be banned because kids are using them to get around. And so I— the main thing that we've done is we've commissioned additional research on this because I've not been happy with the evidence."
Sounds like they realize there are two sides and no "clear winning argument" in either direction, that's why the additional research is needed. Sounds a bit more nuanced than what I expected based on your snippet.
What is there to research? Yes, VPNs can be used to circumvent geofences (and by extension, regional age restrictions). Yes, attempting to age-restrict VPNs is at odds with strong privacy guarantees. Privacy is a human right, and one which is essential for effective democracy.
The trade-offs and how many people care and about what specifically.
E.g., you say "Privacy is a human right", so why is it that half the websites I visit ask for permission to share details of how I use those sites with more corporate "trusted partners" than there were students and staff combined in my secondary school? I'm all on board with just banning this kind of analytics, but there's a lot of people who are more angry with the EU for forcing companies to at least ask for permission before they sell your data to all those analytics firms.
> E.g., you say "Privacy is a human right", so why is it that half the websites I visit ask for permission to share details of how I use those sites with more corporate "trusted partners" than there were students and staff combined in my secondary school?
Because capitalism itself is the enemy.
And information assymmetry is a potent tool, as is constant and persistent surveillance. All of these enable extracting more money.
Let's be real here. It's investor-monopoly capitalism that is the problem. Individuals worth less than $100,000,000 owning private property or their businesses isn't the problem, it's the Financial-Industrial-Complex with its Dodge vs Ford ruling (established duty to maximize shareholder returns) that is the problem. People owning their homes, cars, agriculture fields, tractors, semi-trucks, and small/medium business are not the cause of our ills. The cause is the financialization of everything, turning everyone into rent-paying debtors always on the precarious edge. Free enterprise is good, but monopoly enterprise is not. Quit making people race to the bottom in competition for basic survival, and start making the moneyed monopolists do it instead!
More than one set of policies and ideals can be shitty at the same time. Just because authoritarian central planned economies failed doesn't mean we should never try anything else ever again that isn't pure capitalism or refuse to criticize its faults.
It's the UK gov. Rather than do something, it's endless inquiries and 'research'.
Example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Thames_Crossing - the planning application is 360,000 pages and not a single shovel is in the ground. Or HS2. The list goes on. This is a really, really minor example of the same sickness that infests British politics for the last few decades.
Are there ways of doing age gating while preserving privacy? For whom? How many people need that kind of privacy, would it impact lots of (say) teens seeking help or is this about whistleblowers? Are many under 18s using VPNs for porn? Or have they just shifted to other platforms anyway? If we implemented it “perfectly” would it even do the thing we wanted?
What are the actual numbers here? If there’s lots of fuss about vpns but actually while there’s been a big jump in use it’s not under 18s anyway it wouldn’t help.
> Privacy is a human right, and one which is essential for effective democracy.
And does this get broken enough for age gating something? We age gate alcohol to reasonable success, sometimes that involves showing id.
I’m not arguing for age gating here but I do think understanding the tradeoffs may require more evidence.
Then the yokel checkout attendant proceeds to punch the 8 digit birthday into the keyboard, which serializes you as one of less than 30,000 customers in the area. Birthdays are leaky identifiers.
I don't know how this works in the UK, but where I am at that would look like politicians just fishing for bribes while they stall committing to any action which also helps in PR.
For example the vast majority of the UK residents is against the ongoing support and complicity of the UK in the genocide of Palestinians, to which the government orchestrated the whole operation to turn the protest into act of terrorism (!).
Polls from Opinium, YouGov, even earlier ipsos, showing that UK general public does not support the genocide, but immediate ceasefire, stopping sale of arms to Israel, back ICC, et.
You'd struggle to find anything that would show that UK public support aiding and abetting.
Set the stage? Techno-fascism is already here. Private conglomerates own all the 21st century “commons” that matter and can already de-platform you at will with no explanation and no recourse, including from those platforms necessary for survival in the modern world (banking/payments).
If anything, (western) governments are late to this game.
Hi! It sounds like you may have misunderstood the TV license as you seem to be describing it as a recent thing whereas it was introduced 80 years ago in 1946. The point of the license was always to fund broadcast content--not sure how this could apply to VPN use. I think the discussion of VPNs relates to how, if we decided it was appropriate to block foreign sites, you'd accomplish this. As somebody who grew up in the heady days of the early internet this who conversation saddens me, but when you hear for example interviews with the folks running Roblox you can see where these ideas come from....
"I want to do the thing that gets me the most votes and carries the least political risk".
Note this is not necessarily the wisest thing, or even the thing that objectively solves or mitigates the problem the most. Many such cases...
These people created a law that is catastrophic for privacy, so I don't believe they will be stopped from banning VPN's just because someone claims VPN's are good for privacy.
> Elizabeth Louise Kendall (born 11 June 1971)[1] is a British politician who has served as Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology
> [sic] graduating with first class honours in history in 1993
> [sic] after graduating from Cambridge, worked at the Institute for Public Policy Research (charity)
tl;dr never worked in the private sector, and utterly unqualified to make judgements on technology.
So of course she's the science minister.
This is what UK parliament is full of, ill qualified, political lifers.
To put it into perspective he was asked to do the harm review, in which he proved how much more harmful the legal drugs (alcohol and nicotine) are from some of the banned ones (namely cannabis, LSD or Psylocibin).
Famously at the exact same time UK was claiming there was no evidence of the medicinal use of the cannabis, the UK was also the biggest exporter of it, and all was then turned into Sativex, a cannabis based medicine, not approved for use in the UK of course (individual import is allowed).
Interesting is that the husband of one of the very prominent Home Secretary and later Prime Minister is a senior executive in the producet.
If your argument is that a group is conspiring to establish policy in a country, the idea that it's happening in many, many countries means the threshold for evidence is now much higher, since the group should be able to have much more control.
It's as much of a "conspiracy theory" as ordinary monetary corruption worldwide: There doesn't need to be any connection or conspiracy between politicians who take bribes, just like there doesn't need to be any connection or conspiracy between politicians who push for more surveillance and control over others.
Oh yes like Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey. If it is happening worldwide, it is less likely to be a coordinated scheme and more likely coming to the same conclusions based on current research.
Edit because I'm getting limited:
This isn't exactly something old that has been going on for decades in its current form and the usage has increased especially since the lockdowns. Nations have also been copying each other for centuries, you don't need a secret group coordinating for it with a singular ulterior motive.
Oh yes sorry, Western countries and dictatorships.
But sure, all governments suddenly woke up at the exact same time, give or take a few months, and realized that social media should be banned for kids.
I think they all wanted to control internet access since the arab spring, but they didn't have a good wedge. Now the data around harm to children is widely available, they all have the same excuse they can use at the same time.
Or maybe different people respond similarly to the same incentives.
For decades companies like Facebook have been saying you just have to let us groom children, there's no way to have this tech and not groom children. Now the predictable consequences of that are arriving: the tech industry is being turned off, because it grooms children.
And when I say groom children, I'm talking about actual child predators, not the transphobic nonsense point.
I've been using a VPN in the UK on my laptop and phone exclusively for 20 years, and the state has been working with ISPs to make "connection records" for most of that time.
On mobile a VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit. Using the web interface avoids this.
The UK has also moved to force ISPs to block certain bittorrent search engines.
The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.
>The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.
Definitely doesn't shy away from doing it! But one thing I find most irritating is that it seems reluctant to say it proud and loud.
Look at the situation with 4chan and Kiwifarms. They are basically asking to be blocked from the UK and they refuse to. I can't really say why the onus is put on the websites to enact blocks, but my suspicion is the government doesn't like the idea of displaying an official page stating that you are not allowed to see something because the government doesn't want you to.
>the government doesn't like the idea of displaying an official page stating that you are not allowed to see something
They don't even have to do that, the connection can just be left to time out on the client side. This is what they did (and some ISPs still do) for the Internet Archive...
Yes, archive.org is classed as an adult site in the UK.
Yeah, that's an ideal situation.
The devs say they're going to eventually fix that, but their priority is the device security, not privacy.
I checked mine and it's a little bit weird - even with the physical Sim disabled and esim (from another country) enabled, it was returning physical sim data.
Hmm, would it be possible to avoid it by using no SIM in the device and WiFi/VoIP only (whether mobile hotspot or some fixed internet)? It would mean an extra device to carry around but if country detection by native apps is in your threat model...
> On mobile VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit.
I've never had this issue (using Private Internet Access on iOS).
I'm a Brit living abroad, when I visit the UK I use a Tailscale network with an exit node at my home, and yeah this always seems to work for me.
Going the other way around to try and watch British TV I used to find with a normal hosted VPN services could still figure out I wasn't in the country, but now I have a Tailscale exit node at my mum's place in the UK it always works fine.
So I suspect it all comes down to the IP source, probably a residential IP is the best possible case and with commercial VPNs it depends on how hard they work on isolating their IP blocks from known datacentres.
Commercial VPNs publish their exit nodes IPs online. There are services like ipinfo.io which can accurately determine if you are using a known VPN service.
Some context - Birmingham Mail is one of dozens of clickbait-driven publications owned by Reach plc.
They're not a high quality source of news - they've more than decimated their journalism staff and replaced them with 'content' staff who are performance monitored on the number of clicks their articles generate.
Content is syndicated in different accents across their range of papers from the national papers, The Mirror and The Daily Express down into a large number of notionally 'local' outlets.
At least we get to raise the next generation of IT geeks because they'll have to understand a bunch of networking basics to watch porn, and might get hooked on it. (on IT)
Israel will be making kill on this, they will unleash their free VPNs to the young people like they did to Iran. UK national security will be like Suisse cheese
In a way, the cack-handed way they've gone about this makes me slightly more optimistic. If we must have such a law, please let it be one which:
* Creates a market for privacy tech of several million teenagers
* Wastes police time chasing down social forums which kids are hosting abroad using their pocket money
* Rubs the noses of the securirati in the fact that they've made it easier for terrorists to hide their comms among the thousands of teenage speakeasies
This is not the 80's when comms tech required capital and man-years of engineering. Setting up forums online isn't even a high-school project.
I'm very much in favour of blocking children from social media - it's an absolutely vile cesspit of cognitive addiction, bullying and social (and potential sexual) abuse. But none of it requires a mass-surveillance network to be put in place.
Just for one example; it would be trivial for Apple and Google to put age estimation on my phone, verify it on opening the web browser and provide a zero-knowledge proof of age to websites in a way that does not reveal my identity. All the infrastructure is already there, and it's relatively trivial to turn it on. The downside is that this will only work for people who are older than about 25 because of the uncertainty of face-to-age recognition, but it would be a start.
Another way to do it is for my bank, who know my age already, providing a similar credential that I can feed into the zero-knowledge proof engine on the phone.
This was all done properly for the covid tracking apps, at a time when the phone providers actually wanted to do tracking with anonymity - this is a similar problem, and it's easily cracked by technical means.
And you don't even need zero knowledge proofs if you perform on-device content detection - turn it on for kids, keep it off for adults. Modern phones have more than enough TPU capacity to do this.
But none of the actual implementations I've seen are truly anonymizing, and they all rely on trusting some really dodgy companies with your identity and browsing habits. Yes, the more respectable ones have security and privacy policies that are audited, but will they always? The cynical answer is "no", because history shows that someone will always do something sooner or later if (a) it makes money, and (b) they can get away with it.
Everything I see suggests that the desire for mass surveillance is the driver, and the "protect the children" front on this is a strategem by the people who are really driving this from behind the curtain. There are huge amounts of money to be made by capturing verifiable, blackmailable, personal data, and this is a magic money fountain for those who will be able to mine it.
In more sensible times, we'd run an ad campaign highlighting the dangers and informational campaigns for parents on what to do to prevent your children getting access to social media.
Perfect is impossible, but if its stigmatised then the network effects stop being so punitive to children who have reasonable parents.
it's the 10-80-10 rule: 10% of kids will still access social media, 10% will never... but 80% can be swayed.
bruhghghbmphf, the VPNs! the VPNs! can't have those! What's that good sir? You say ssh? Do not shh me sir. Oh, SSH... yes, SSH, can't have that! It's elementary, any system which one accesses MUST report to parliament. Personally Identifiable Documents for General Evaluation Of Ne'er-do-wells. We'll call it the P.I.D.G.E.O.N. network.
It's never about the technical capability of the tool. This is a mistake technologists keep making. It's about what the average person thinks it does or uses it to do.
Ban VPNs, an industry of SOCKS5 proxies will boom. Ban those, put the SOCKS5 proxy behind an SSH port-forward, and so on and so forth. Suddenly calling a Kubernetes API puts you in a secret service list somewhere.
You seem to think they're banning OpenVPN protocol and if you just use a different protocol you can work around it. They're not, they're banning privacy.
They don't want perfection. They want to move things forward, for their definition of forward.
If they ban bog standard VPNs and find out they're still being used, they'll punish the VPN companies.
If the VPN companies create workarounds and avoid the punishment, they'll punish the payment processors.
If the VPN companies start using esoteric workarounds and taking cryptocurrency for payment, then they've mostly won -- most people aren't going to deal with that shit.
All the while, they'll still go after the social media/etc companies for allowing circumvention of age-gating. So the social media companies will crack down on our ability to visit their sites with any sort of privacy.
My point: laws are all imperfect but can still have a huge effect. Pointing out work arounds doesn't change that.
For context, I'm really disturbed by the recent move to punish people seeking privacy instead of the social media companies that are enabling this social media shit. They know who the companies are, since that's who they're going to punish for not age gating. But they'd (I'm talking about US based age-gating pushes as well) rather fuck with our privacy and make our PII more susceptible to data breaches than tell the social media companies to eat shit.
Mullvad already does all of the things you mentioned. Cryptocurrency payments with no KYC, and many anti-censorship [1] methods. Moreover, their mobile and desktop apps apply heuristics to find combinations of anti-censorship measures that work automatically. It's very user friendly (all the user needs to do is press on connect). So, the blocking attempts are still pointless because large, prominent providers already make all these bypass methods very user friendly.
Then we cipherpunks dunk on and make fun of them as we jet by in our cool top-down VPN convertibles! They can be ID cucks while we enjoy all the finer things on the internet!
Liberty and privacy aren't free; it takes sweat off the brow or the blood of sacrifice to preserve or claw back to.
This is not to stop children from doing that. This is primarily to deanonymise as many people as possible, before the next steps come into force (scanning all files and messages on the every Internet - connected devices, hardware attestation of all the internet - connected devices, etc)
So when the citizens inevitably start protesting against the oppression, it's easier to subdue them.
Every corporate I know of, uses VPNs. Especially when workers connect from home. Is the UK government really interested in going up against the majority of their business partners...?
Many ways. You could ask them. You could watch how they behave. You could look at how the product is advertised. You could try the product yourself and see what it does.
There is lots in the article that suggests they want to ban them for minors though. How the hell is that supposed to work without at a minimum a severe curtailment of VPNs in general?
So no, not a ban for all. A ban for minors, and a severe curtailment in general. The parent post might not be 100% accurate, but it's close.
Most VPN companies won't implement age verification, because their purpose is privacy. This is really an attempt to ban VPNs. This won't be popular when 70% of the population uses VPNs.
Most VPN providers are purely profit-driven enterprises, they don't give a shit about privacy. There are only a handful that would turn away UK business instead of requiring ID.
There are few things more exciting, in relationship to attempting to restrict access to (data) communications, than a government which thinks geeks won't find ways around such. Now sit back, relax, and let's wait for the next generation of encrypted channels solution development.
This isn't something that can be defeated like this. You are right, there will be ways around this. But we also have to be honest: being able to buy "off the shelf", two click VPN solution for 5$ already puts you into "geek" category. Relatively speaking.
If they ban the commercial providers, payment processors will be the first to enforce it. And Google and Apple will throw the 1-Click solutions out of their app store for users from those countries immediately. And with that the topic is effectively dead even for most "geeks". At this point the goal is already pretty much achieved, most people are cutoff and under heavier surveillance. Next comes the group that know what a server is, how to rent one, what OpenVPN or Wireguard are. But many of the most used websites already make your life difficult if your IP is from such a range.
It goes on. At each step you can argue "there is still a way, as long as you got networking with other countries". Absolutely correct, but at each step the group who knows how and is willing to invest the energy shrinks. And the intended goal will likely already be achieved at the mentioned phase 1 above. The fact that some people still find ways isn't really a gotcha in this matter.
And at some point they will criminalize it. Does it matter that they are unlikely to catch you? Is it worth the risk? And if so, what if you catch strays for it from an unrelated matter. Ultimately they will simply target the devs that help build easy solution for the less tech-savy.
One big reason why you want to keep a bunch of nerds tunneling out around anyway is that you keep useful, defusing attitudes like that floating around. Aka "It's not that bad, there are still ways around it, haha, those idiots".
> being able to buy "off the shelf", two click VPN solution for 5$ already puts you into "geek" category
I’m not sure that’s true anymore. I discovered recently my 70 year old, very technology-averse, parents are using a VPN (much to my initial concern). I think it’s for viewing football matches, or so they can watch iPlayer when they travel. They’re advertised on buses, etc. They’re pretty common these days.
That said I think you’re right that a block at the App Store level etc is enough to cut usage significantly.
The beauty of VPNs is that you do not need to have a presence in the UK to make or sell one. And there's a huge amount of money in it.
The law is very bad at dealing with such realities, see also piracy and drugs. The last time I checked TPB is still accessible in the UK with only DoH.
So they'll just arrest you if you're caught importing VPN paraphernalia (whatever that means), using a VPN, being a payment processor and allowing money to be spent on a VPN, and so on. Just like they do with drugs. Got Wireguard on your computer? Off to jail with you.
Oh, they're in motion already. There are other countries that tried to ban VPNs for decades now, that sparked multiple great avenues of development.
It's exciting to think I'll become a dissident like my parents, just because I don't want a slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil me.
Labour-in-the-name-only is a far right at the moment (left to Tories and Farage on social issues, right of Tories and almost at Farage on domestic and international affairs).
Once Starmer hijacked the party based on the scammy set of pledges[1], he promptly started removing of anyone remotely "leftist", then started competing with Tories in cruelty and with Reform at hostility.
Perhaps then you could at least vaguely understand the desire of people to avoid having slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil their children.
I definitely see both sides of this argument but to pretend the answers here are obvious just means people aren’t being serious. Serious harm is being caused to children and just because that’s a known cliche doesn’t make it not a real concern people have.
The slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein own all the main political parties, the UK's mainstream media, most of the social networks, and have their fingers in the NHS.
The UK hasn't been quick to deal with Epstein's associates and has a long history of either ignoring or losing critical evidence in CSA cases associated with politicians and public figures.
With that background, mandatory ID makes it easier, not harder, for abusers to act with impunity and/or official protection.
Look, the excuse is being made that kids are exposed to harms in online places, in general.
Most famously in Roblox (that's now fixed on Roblox side first with age banding, now by sharding it into three parts), and then in socials -- but the impact of, say, Instagram where kids are preyed upon because the algorithms are promoting them to preying populace, and where Meta openly runs experiments with their mental health, knowingly pushing them into harms way, is vastly different from, say, Coverstar.
Impact of abuse from Meta is well documented already, yet Meta is not punished.
Kids are being radicalised by being fed toxic content, and it's also well known.
Elon Musk's X was knowingly producing CSAM and non consensual nude images of real people and it took a tremendous amount of time for _anything_ to happen - and I don't see Musk on the dock yet?
There are ways to automatically block almost all kids on socials. Take away DMs and comments on the posts from all unverified users and kids suddenly will be much safer. All that can be done today.
The greasy friends of Epstein are running this shitshow, they're in the government (most famously PM of the UK knowingly appointed a longtime Epstein friend as the UK ambassador for the US), they've been covering Jimmy Saville abuses in the BBC, Police forces, the past government, which receives financial incentives from some of these companies to push things exactly the way they want.
Most severe harm to children is caused with the tacit approval of the government and media.
Sneaky access to the socials is not this.
Oh, and you know what? Receipts show it's Meta behind this weird, sudden push for age checks. Meta and their $2B.
So you already know something's off, or at least you should.
Doesn't the UK already have geo-targeted age verification infrastructure in place? A website or app could require the user to submit a live video of themselves quaffing a local beer.
No. It has laws that websites must follow to serve content in the UK. It’s up to the websites to do the age verification themselves, and the majority use third party ID verification services. Reddit used an American company to do it,
I'm curious what GCHQ make of all this. Increased VPN usage will reduce their visibility into internet traffic. They can try to force VPN providers to implement ID checks but if the provider is overseas it's not so easy to get that information.
Not to mention that this will be used as an opportunity by state actors to harvest info on UK citizens via hostile VPN services.
I'm pretty busy and behind the times a bit on this one. What is a practical method to avoid such a ban? I'm not in the UK, but there seems to be a general anti-privacy movement that is sweeping the globe.
What can we do when such a law comes to our country?
- Route all traffic via tor, then connect to a VPN from Tor?
The vast majority of children cannot and do not buy and pay for VPNs and use them to evade anything. The second that governments said "We intend to ban VPNs" they gave away the game as to what their actual intent was, and it wasn't "for the children"
This will be interesting to follow. I dont see how this can be fully enforced. Maybe for iOS and other platform where app distribution is highly restricted, but on linux, windows and even macOS i can use mullvad, sending cash in an envelope without ever revealing my identity.
How would that work? The UK can presumably ban Mullvad from operating in the UK, but I don't see how it can prevent outbound connections to Mullvad servers elsewhere, short of implementing a nation-wide firewall like China or Iran. And even in those places the firewall is pourous and routinely circumvented.
States have been the most terrible churches imagineable!
No one can be a true Atheist and not also be an Anarchist, and no one can be a true Anarchist and not also be an Atheist [all Scotsmen aside here :^)].
What if I use a VPS instead? What if it's a virtual private VPS wholely in memory? What if it's a pool of VPS boxes shared by me and a network of people?
There's always a way around, but this direction is concerning.
They're banking on the number of kids using that mechanism to bypass the ban being small.
I'm not in favour of this but I'm acknowledging that if the number of children accessing social media drops significantly because of a VPN ban then they've achieved what they set out to do.
I don't like the salami slice tactics of not including this in previous legislation despite knowing that it would be necessary to enforce the social media ban. There would have been a lot less support if it was presented as a complete package that could be debated in it's whole.
While I do support restricting social media to younger minds, the way they go about it, and the collateral damage that will result is unacceptable. For about 500ms I thought I might have found the "one thing" I agree with this government, but nope... I'm considering whether it's time to leave the UK. There is an air of hostility here towards... well everything.
Leaving IS the hard decision for me. I love the UK, and I am full of gratitude to live in England. I know anywhere else will be a downgrade. See my reply above for my current list of options.
Where would you go to then? European countries, Australia and American states already have implemented or are keen to implement ID requirements/tracking for websites.
If it was just ID, or just X or just Y, that would have been manageable. It's the barrage of action against people who are actually trying to be productive in society. Success is now penalised here.
Where to go - well... There are options. Not many but they exist; south east asia (e.g. Thailand), The Channel islands, The Emirates if that's your thing. I'm sure there are more - I'm doing my due diligence on the options now. But I REALLY wish I didn't feel like I have to. I want my country to love me back like I love it, but right now it feels a bit one-sided.
Too many people are seeing this like engineers and not like bureaucrats.
They won't be able to block all VPN services, and they don't really care. VPN still works in China. The entire point is to acclimate the public to a system of fear and control. You won't get arrested because you used a VPN, you'll get arrested a few weeks later because your neighbor snitched on you. They can easily enforce these laws without any form of technology.
Funny how quickly "won't someone think of the children" turns into mandatory government ID for private services, banning necessary and secure (and encrypted) communications systems, and locking children out of access to the de facto communication systems of the modern era.
This is a privacy nightmare on all fronts and a horrible limit on freedom of speech. These kids will be learning how to drive a car, yet unable to contact their extended family over Messenger or follow news on Twitter. For everyone else, it means no anonymity or secrecy which has a chilling effect on free speech at a time when fascism is growing within democratic countries and dissidents are being imprisoned or murdered.
Yes, there are some really big problems with social media, but keeping children away from it doesn't fix the problems - it just leaves them for the rest of us to deal with. Let's fix the root of the problem, starting with the recommendation algorithms that inherently polarize people by building echo chambers around them and pushing divisive content all in the name of "engagement".
That's because the tech industry never made any attempt. It's like you blocked all the good options, now you get the worst one because it's one you can't block.
And then UK residents are going to discover the "power" of government which will require age verification for renting a VPS or VDS or any other kind of cloud infrastructure, tied directly to your passport/ID, because "many families are desperate for this to happen and I listen particularly to bereaved families that say the longer we delay this, the more children are put at risk".
/j or /s
P.S. by the way, is it possible for them to use Hetzner? Don't they need something like credit card?
Perhaps it'll work like dodgy boxes/firesticks, where you have a handful of people who individually set up their own service then charge a fee for access.
I'm not so sure, but aren't some attempts to regulate the cryptocurrencies (therefore completely obliterating their initial goal to be government-independent) already have been made? Maybe I'm wrong though, because I don't really remember... Probably I have to look it up.
Anyway, how would they obtain the (let's say) Bitcoin to pay for VPS?
Just moved back to the UK after many years away, and it's creepy here. Doing the elderly under terror legislation, some crazy kangaroo court antics, a frankly sinister approach to "online safety". VPNs?
The even more concerning thing is that we've got a far right party that have been leading in the polls for most of the last year.
Where is the evidence for that? Though I grant they may get into power and suddenly change their mind, at the moment those parties are against digital dystopia, most likely because the centrist parties are most interested in using those tools to silence criticism of current immigration policy and other failings.
And the left are also being surveilled and censored, e.g pro-palestine / anti-war / anti-capitalist groups, though the strategy used there is less censorship and more often bogging those groups down with infighting about identity issues. What seems more dangerous is letting the increasingly tyrannical centrist establishment, dead set on stagnation and "managed decline", give legitimacy to censorship tools (which will be available to future extreme governments!) rather than fixing things properly.
So the UK government finally admits that age-sniffing is just an attempt to censor people. How evil.
People need to look at the UK government much more so than the US government in ADDITION. Everyone knows how the USA serves the superrich only these days, but the UK government is kind of polite on the outside, but pure evil on the inside.
> The site’s content happens to include an HTTP/2
endpoint that, when presented with an anonymous authorization token, behaves as a VPN server’s outer layer
Is this not the fingerprintable aspect? Wouldn't you need to randomise the HTTP endpoint to avoid eventually being banned based on URI?
There is very little doubt that we need to find a way to update our relationship with social media. The evidence of their harm in current form is overwhelming.
However, using this reason to induce censorship rules, word by word matching Russia/China playbook is making the goal less achievable if anything.
UK government has been talking about digital ID for a while now. The existing verification methods are too vulnerable to cheating (fake beards, fake ID, borrow dad's credit card, etc...), so the logical next step is direct government ID numbers. The goal is to link all online activity to a unique identifier to make it easier to punish dissent.
Don't panic. These debates are nothing new. Encryption and obfuscation tech comes up every ten years or so. People scream and, in the end, nothing changes.
One upon a time, encryption math was regulated as a munition and the act of sharing open source software was tantamount to weapon smuggling. Once upon a time, VPNs were being banned by credit card companies. Part of the rise of bitcoin was the idea that you would need it for services like VPNs that credit card companies refused to service. Today, VPNs are openly advertised as piracy tools for getting around media geo-restrictions. Once upon a time, ISPs throttled torrents and so torrents become encrypted. Once upon a time DNS was to be poisoned in order to block filesharing websites (see COICA and PROTECT IP acts). All those efforts also came to nothing. These too will die.
Baffling how easy companies like Meta have it with politicians. Fuck them all, I'm leaving for the woods. It's been fun with tech but now it's just so painful,
The article below sharply summarizes why all this is a dystopian surveillance setup:
> how, precisely, do you stop a fourteen-year-old from opening Instagram without first checking the age of the forty-year-old?
> You don’t. You can’t. So everyone gets carded. Britain is lifting the system wholesale from Australia, where a computer first scans your face and guesses your age from your cheekbones, then, failing that, surveils you to death, studies your browsing habits and the hours you keep, and then, when the algorithm throws up its hands, simply demands your passport.
Exactly. A little at a time. First it's adult sites, because if you need to show ID to buy alcohol, shouldn't you need ID to buy pornography? Once that's accepted, expand the sphere of control to non-adult sites too by redefining everything as 16+.
The alternatives are even more power-mad, fundamentally illiberal parties (Reform, Conservatives), equally pearl-clutching ones that will likely continue on the same road as Labour (greens) and unreliable figures that will flip-flop as soon as they are in power (libdems).
Reform and Restore will say anything to get into power, and then they will turn into ultraconservatives. See also: council tax in pretty much all sizeable councils they got to control, which they promised to keep fixed and then raised immediately after getting in. Their instincts are traditional ultra-right.
And yeah, I agree that there is no natural home in UK politics for social liberism. Hence why quipping "they keep voting for this" is just pointless - there are no realistic alternatives, what we have at the moment is the least worst and it's still pretty bad.
FWIW you can age-gate VPNs the same way you can age-gate anything else that is paid for: just don't let people who haven't got credit cards (not debit cards) sign up.
Or you can simply let free plans only terminate inside their own country. I noticed recently that TunnelBear has done this with their free plans — the "fastest" endpoint, which is the only one that is free, is now a UK endpoint. It still meets the security need anyone might have from a VPN.
I am honestly not that bothered about adult content age gating in principle, and I never really have been. I personally think sexual content is not remotely immoral but that it's reasonable to say the very young shouldn't be able to see it. It's not a freedom of speech issue.
Given the practical impossibility of parental regulation of access to devices when cheap phones and PAYG exist, the problem is the practice of it: how do you do that in a way that is privacy-preserving?
I feel that Apple has coped with this pretty well: they decided I am an adult automatically based on how long I have held an account.
I also think the UK PAYG mobile providers handle this well: they have simply always blocked adult content until you unlock it. I haven't bothered and I have never seen the content wall (except when deliberately testing it) so I believe its boundaries are drawn quite well.
Though I do routinely use one site that might end up blocked over time because it sits right at the boundary of the law's interest. So one day I might need to, I guess. And I have considered what I might need to do about a website for my own photographic work, which sits on the edge of the ofcom rules interest in practice.
We are missing secure anonymous age attestation but I think that will come.
I do think American critics tend to interpret this in terms of the morality and religion battle-zone that riddles US culture and encourages US states to try to police morality in bizarre ways or to extend "porn" rules to things like information about sexuality, gender or sexual health (which would just not happen here because we're actually not really religious or prudes; there is essentially no religion in our politics, which is ironic considering the C of E have seats in the Lords).
I don't think American critics should really leap to judge UK rules when you have two dozen different states imposing rule sets that in some cases came first and in many are wholly unworkable.
UK concerns are about child access to extreme material and about sexual exploitation, fundamentally. It's not easy and it's clear some aspects of the legislation are difficult, but accepting criticism from Americans as if the US position is clear, unambiguous and robust is no longer something we should entertain, especially lessons about the morality of free speech from the US administration, given their apparent selective contempt for it.
You're straw-manning there. Every adult citizen isn't forced to have a VPN or view porn.
Most UK citizens do have a credit card anyway (though I in fact do not). It's more than three quarters.
It's not even the only way someone offering a service for what is after all a subscription product could achieve adult verification through existing banking-based mechanisms, because there are also bank mechanisms for making payments through a direct debit, which again you have to be an adult to do in the UK, and everyone can.
KYC processes also work though they are annoying and a VPN provider is inherently not going to want to do it.
But they are going to want to take money and there are these two mechanisms that come with adulthood verification attached.
Apple could do more on this with Wallet — they could let you pay with a virtual debit card that can only be in your wallet if you've passed their adult verification. Would need some card industry support. I am not sure why I can't just associate adulthood with my debit card; that would be a good fix.
"legal parent/guardian is responsible for the child"
if a parent faced fine or jail for a child having access to the internet you can be sure 90% of the children wouldn't have internet access
I'm no defender of the big social/media sites but I don't see why it's their fault/problem if a minor has internet access when they aren't supposed to
This all feels like the opposite goal of knowing everyone who is online everywhere
Because it's not how you'd make the law, you'd wouldn't go to service by service and make it their problem, you'd make it the adult responsible for the child's problem
what if instead of this age gate or whatever government is doing, what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
remove all "reasonable step" shield to hide behind. for example, a shopkeeper can't say they took "reasonable steps" if they sell alcohol to a child so why should a website be any different? if we are going to the absurdity of age-gating VPNs, at least lets make it so that there is an incentive for children to self-report
The end result will be the same. If you face a 10k liability for serving the wrong customer, you end up needing to ID your customers.
If the government isn't going to provide that service you end up with private companies verifying identity and the data security issues that entails.
If you want to shift the responsibility of protecting children away from parents, then you end up in a situation where third parties need to be able to differentiate between a child and an adult. I haven't yet seen a proposal that doesn't entail someone - government or private enterprise - getting access to identifiable information.
Of course, you could have something like a signed certificate, so the identity verifier doesn't see who you are patronizing, and the identity seeking business only gets to see your age, but it still has privacy issues.
It also doesn't give any actual age verification information. Verified age is not the same thing as self reported age.
If a kid can figure out how to click "yes, I am an adult" on a website, they can definitely figure out how to do the same thing when they turn on their phone the first time.
You've needed to do that for at least ten years. Mobile internet either requires a contract, or an ID check before you get a sim (pay and go)
Anyone providing internets is liable for what the users are doing. The way you got out of that is responding to legal requests. (originally mostly copyright)
This is the frustrating thing, we have effective and relatively uncontroversial age gated network (mobile data) already. and it worked.
I don’t think that would have worked. Parents buy phones for their kids since the kids can’t buy them. What would the choices be? Give them a phone or not give them a phone. I don’t think society is ready for that kind of choice anymore.
> what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
All of these proposals probably sound good to people who think the Venn diagram of sites they use and sites covered by these laws are two separate circles.
They probably sound a lot less good when you realize the law covers site like YouTube. The Australian law (which they said they’re modeling this after) also includes social news sites like Reddit.
If they passed a law like this extending to VPN services then you’d have to hand over your ID to use a VPN.
Usually people realize how bad these proposals are once they realize it might impact their internet use, too.
Sure! With my kids it's meant not buying them internet-enabled devices (or disabling the internet access, eg smart TVs), only having 1 family computer in a shared space, and managing my own local network. There also aren't screens in the house through the week.
On the flip side, I let them read whatever they want, including things that are upsetting or that other parents would say aren't appropriate, and I talk to them about what they've read.
Overall, I think these policies have meant more thoughtful media consumption, and more time outside and with friends. I'm not enough of a fool to think our rules are enforced at friends' houses, but we've chosen to live in a community that's largely on the same page.
None of this stuff is easy, but as a parent, it's the job.
Nobody has a right to unrestricted tobacco stores.
Everybody has a right to free speech, and free speech frequently requires anonymous speech. This is why the protection of journalists' sources is so important, and why principled journalists are willing to go to jail to protect them.
You yearn for the end and couldn't care less about the means. But there are also those who couldn't care less about the end, but yearn for the means.
How can you distinguish between the two? And which do you think best describes the parties behind this global push to de-anonymize the Internet?
Yes yes, the internet is tobacco, TV rots your brain, the radio pushes devil music, and the printing press gives the peasants too many dangerous ideas. Shut it all down.
I expect them to give a shit, yeah. Just like they should care about what they read or watch, or who they hang out with.
Don't let your kids have an internet-connected phone, or keep it locked down so they don't have parasitic apps preying on their pre-frontal immaturity until they're old enough to handle it.
All of this needs to be done intentionally, of course, or it will feel like the kids are being punished. But I can't emphasize this enough... it's our job as parents to raise our kids.
> big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
HIPAA has been super effective this way. As we all know, American companies don’t give two shits about user privacy or even security. But wave the HIPAA flag and everyone starts caring real hard and taking extremely cumbersome steps to comply with patient privacy.
Very simple: Each HIPAA violation comes with a financial penalty for the business and personal penalty for every person involved in the leak. Very effective.
I agree the threat is there but I've never seen anyone actually punished for HIPAA violations and my data have been involved in several hospital and insurance breaches.
There's not even a test for HIPAA compliance, so you can't legally prove you were ever compliant in the first place, other than you did what you thought was right. People love to use the term "HIPAA-compliant" but it's technically not a thing.
From my understanding, HIPAA mostly just says that you need to have policies in place for various things, such as rotating passwords or encrypting data, but it doesn't go into explicit detail about what all must be IN those policies, or how you enforce them.
> It's not possible to prevent a person (of any age) from reaching a specific website if they are determined enough. Full stop.
right, and that reveals the absurdity of this "age gate", doesn't it?
because I am sure giving every UK national their very own unicorn would also poll very well but that doesn't mean that's what a functional democracy should be prioritizing
just because a majority of the public supports
because doing so is not possible
So if anyone who is a part of the establishment that protects known abusers and openly tolerated companies known, by their own admission, for hurting children, start saying "think of the children!" and "we're protecting the children", look at their hands because they're trying to swindle you.
And remember that once these systems are introduced it will be very hard to get rid of them, and very easy to get them expanded to gate (identify users of) the more "radical" content, like environmental protests, opposing the genocide, perhaps opposing the monarchy...
If the establishment allows the companies, unpunished, to knowingly push teens into ED or suicide and at the same time says they "do something", you really shouldn't take it at the face value.
If you still honestly believe the reason for this is "protecting the children" (remember the next steps, mandatory, uninstallable surveillance on phones and IDing of all VPN users are in motion already), you can't be saved :(
yes and we do fine companies that sell alcohol and drugs to children.
lets give everyone an incentive to report companies that allow or encourage children to use these websites.
the children, the parents, bystanders, the employees and contractors of these websites, everyone should get paid from the fines these social media companies would need to pay out for every infraction.
I think GBP 10k per incidence is actually pretty cheap
considering the alternative is life in prison for the CEO and the board
starting with cash incentives all the way to prison terms for the CEO and the board
In Russia, they claimed that new measures to block websites are necessary to protect the children online. Of course, they immediately used these new capabilities to block opposition websites and sources critical of the government.
Now, seeing many European governments tirelessly push for these new measures to protect the children, I'm pretty sure that the children are finally going to be safe online.
It is really disheartening to see the sentiment around privacy erode like this. Fifteen or even ten years ago this would have been unanimously and vehemently opposed, but now it is somehow up for debate?
There has been 15 more years of highly motivated psychologists tuning their social media systems to create addiction, time for those who've grown up through this to become adults, foreign interference with democracy etc.
Though I think banning it for children is the wrong approach. Ban the addictive and dangerous features for everyone, adults included — no more infinite scroll, and no more feeds showing content from outside social connections.
> no more feeds showing content from outside social connections
So, kill all news agencies and reporters I guess? or would there be a carve out for incumbents so they can cement their market share? who controls the approval list?
News agencies don’t do personalized curation. Every reader, at least from the same city, gets exactly the same content.
> Every reader, at least from the same city, gets exactly the same content
That alone is a value add people don't realize even as they're losing it: it created a shared reality you and locals inhabited, that you could have a conversation about.
It also helped quite a bit with narrative enforcement.
Maybe. But then at least there was a narrative, which is valuable in itself.
If a social media feed is purely social, news agencies have no more right to be there than to force themselves onto your table in a pub or a board games group.
Even if you want expand from social and allow commercial activity on them, it should still only be whoever you actually chose. It's not like Fox News can interrupt a BBC News broadcast on TV, or The New York Times can substitute itself for your normal copy of The Cambridge News: you chose what source you get, not an algorithm. (And there is a specific named editor to blame if some false story gets in that wasn't checked first for actually being true).
They get no special treatment. They would only show up in my feed if one of my contacts shares a link.
Ban infinite scroll? Sounds like a slippery slope and also hard to enforce. I don't even know how you would craft such a law.
The same way you do age assurance laws, I guess.
On the fly with legislation that actively harms privacy whilst also not protecting anyone at all?
Australia did this, now everything is worse with no tangible improvement to "child safety" or protection from brainrot.
What are you afraid of?
This is far more to do with different people having different definitions for what constitutes a genocide with one very well funded minority group having a large stake in their version being the accepted one.
> tuning their social media systems to create addiction
Except this has nothing to do with social media nor with children nor with addiction.
The first sentence of the article "under-16 social media ban".
Social media got worse.
We've had time to witness the damage of a dopamine-doomscroll. I personally know children who've posted too much, and children who've been solicited directly by adults, both to try and meet and for nudes. And we've seen the complete lack of positive action from platforms. Roblox is full of paedophiles and Grok was letting you nudify your classmates just a few months ago. These places aren't suitable for kids.
I don't want a ban on VPNs. That isn't being suggested, just making sure they're also age-checked. But some inconvenience is a price worth considering.
I love how every harm you listed, is a platform design problem, and your fix touches none of it. A kid bypassing VPN age checks can still doomscroll and Roblox all day on a school wifi with no VPN at all. The only thing you've actually accomplished is stripping privacy and security from every adult who isn't a child abuser, to feel like you did something about the ones who are.
I don't believe proving I'm an adult to Meta will deprived me of any further privacy than I've already surrendered. What security do you feel I'll lose?
These "platform design problems" are features for some adults. If they want to pour their life into being radicalised by a neverending, bias-confirming, slop-filled doom scroll, that's their choice, isn't it? Outright prohibition is far more fraught both politically and technically.
Blocking 100% of kids isn't required to prevent harm. The key is finding the optimum balance.
You've already surrendered your privacy to Meta, sure, this has nothing to do with Meta. This is your VPN, the one thing you use because you don't trust your ISP or the wifi you're on, now wanting your real ID before it works. A kid doesn't even need a VPN to doomscroll on school wifi anyway. And "let adults radicalize themselves, their choice" is rich when those adults vote and raise kids and show up swinging at school board meetings. Congrats on the policy that needed my ID and did nothing to the kid two desks over.
You're lost. The whole basis of this discussion is that is that certain services (porn, social media) will have to AV. A kid having open network access doesn't help because they still have that interface to overcome.
Services that enable circumvention is a natural extension. Yes that means going through the same verification process you do with pornhub with your VPN host.
Completely by-the-by, your school networking experience is notably different from mine. Ours are locked down. Kids don't get access on their own devices. They whitelist domains, Google has educational filters, etc, etc. Could somebody red team their way through it? Maybe. Kids aren't.
Sure, deep analysis of my usage, connection, browser user agent, browser fingerprinting, etc could reveal who I am and that information can all be correlated if requested by Government agencies although my privacy isn't completely surrendered on an alt/fake name account.
I have a Facebook account primarily for Market Place under a completely fake name. I very rarely comment on things on Facebook, but it feels good knowing that my real name is not being posted. From a glance, Meta cannot confirm this account is owed by Joe Blogs.
Requiring ID (which is what age gating is) for VPNs is absurd. Given that SSH can act as a proxy service, are you going to require all ssh connections out of the country to be age verified?
Facial modeling has been good enough for porn.
I'd be surprised if the law requires much beyond a vague best effort from service providers, but many already block connections from known server hosts and some even VPNs.
An airtight block is not what's required; stopping social media being mainstream for kids is.
Lol, no. Face scans are being bypassed using video games. Meanwhile the data has shown 90%+ porn users are unwilling to do them and switch sites instead (citation: https://pornbiz.com/post/17/the_scam_of_age_verification ). The whole thing has been a complete fiasco in porn.
Maybe they should get the pedos out of the government instead of a foolish attempt at restricting and harming everyone else? It's not ever going to protect or make children safer. It never was.
Who are the 'pedos' in government?
Why doesn't it make children safer?
I'm trying to discuss this in good faith but that wasn't even an argument. A bland accusation wearing a tin foil hat.
The onus is you to show it makes children safer - you’re the one advocating these privacy-harming rules.
If you insist on that approach, then for the sake of argument, you could pretend the discussion is about Australia which already has a similar law.
You could argue the benefit to children in repealing it.
Nope. The burden is on whoever wants to restrict people. If you want a new restriction, the burden is on you. If you want to keep an existing restriction, the burden is still on you.
You want age checking, you want ids .
> But some inconvenience is a price worth considering.
You're trying to frame it as an "inconvenience" and not a blatant attack on the fundamental freedom of expression. I get that social media is bad, but sometimes (often) the cure is worse than the illness.
> Social media got worse.
Sure, whatever. Maybe in some ways.
> I personally know children who've posted too much, and children who've been solicited directly by adults, both to try and meet and for nudes.
... but not in that way.
I personally knew children who'd been solicited directly by adults before there was even an Internet. Including me, if you use the definition of "child" that seems to be popular in this sort of debate (and, by the way, it wasn't a big deal).
We did not shut down the world because of it.
They've somehow managed to breed several generations who's only criteria for "computing" is "it just works". All consumption, little-to-no understanding of how stuff works. As long as it does what it does, and it's "free", that's all that matters.
More like the dumb people keep breeding and the magic rocks keep showing pretty colors
You need to get out of your nations borders more.
Not every country that exists is like that. People aren’t inherently “dumb”. Uneducated, sure.
"And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Keir Starmer. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent."
- totally benign film set in the UK
> disheartening to see the sentiment around privacy erode like this
Coders went from being civically active—calling their electeds and showing up to events to defend privacy in the 90s—to being comfortably rich and content with maybe voting in generals. That’s had a direct effect on policy quality.
The glasses might be too rosy, I doubt people would’ve fought that much “ten or fifteen years ago”. The general public never gave much thought to privacy, security, or freedom of choice when it came to tech.
Us peasants cannot stop this, Canada will roll this out soon also, its being rammed through no matter what people feel.
In terms of political power, programmers are more like yeomen than peasants. Yeomen have power due to their essential skills because if a good fraction of them stopped working the system would collapse. (Whereas if peasants stop working, they just starve.) If a sufficient number of programmers said "We're not going to implement or support privacy-invading systems" the government would have to back down.
Sadly, your faith is entirely quixotic. Like all other segments of society, there’s always a cohort willing to do anything - regardless of ethics, legality or morality. They are entirely nihilistic, not giving a shit about anything or anyone. And it only takes a small number of such people to do great harm.
Opposed, yeah right. People don't care back then just as they don't now. Only small groups of technical users like us care.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
H.L. Mencken
The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas
If you are talking about the recent blockades of VPNs, the Russians made it pretty clear that they did not want western information sources inside the country. I am not sure it was ever in the guise of protecting the children
The first law about building technical and legal infrastructure to enable website blocking in Russia in 2012 was passed under the name of children protection. Everything else is an addition.
People from duma (the russian parlament) also publicly stated it would never use it for anything but children protection.
Certainly that could be the case. But I was specifically referring to the recent VPN crackdown
Same with Iran, they clearly said that their control of internet access it prevent Western influence, as a national security issue. China did something similar with their firewall.
I personally think the era of free and unrestricted Internet is coming to an end. All the nations in the West are following suit, including Canada with the introduction of C-34.
The only (probably) good thing here is that one can at least try to apply Russian experience at circumventing the censorship, where it's currently way more severe, up to the point when entire companies have their workflows disrupted because remote workers can't connect through the VPN (which is blocked). Maybe that will help.
You see, the problem is that all exit points of our VPNs are in Europe. These too can be banned quite easily. Where to will we run next, given that this cancer tends to spread?
Change the protocols, I guess? Move to some kind of self-hosted or community-run infrastructure? Because to block all of that (EDIT: to block that reliably, I mean), you will have to block the entire EU network sector, and we're likely not in "V for Vendetta" or full-blown 1984 scenario for this to be possible.
Let me tell you how it has been in Russia during last 15 years. WE saw targeted blocks that apply after cease and desist letters. Later they learned to block outgoing OpenVPN and wireguard for everybody except firms who applied to a special registry. Then they learned to cut Vless and Trojan and blocked all sites behind freaking Cloudflare due to ECH v3.0 enforced. Here also go proxies (specifically for Telegram'm MTProto) and other stuff like Quic.
The point is if they start — they can proceed way further than you can imagine now.
I know all of that. I'm a native Russian speaker and I have quite a lot of Russian friends, I'm pretty well aware of the situation. Nevertheless, despite all the government’s efforts and the enormous amount of money invested in this, there are still - at least for now - ways to bypass the blocks even there. I suspect that as long as they don’t physically cut the cables, there will always be ways to circumvent censorship. And yes, I’m not talking about carrier pigeons :)
So I hope that in the UK and other European countries, by drawing on Russia’s existing experience, people will be able to adapt to these restrictions before they become too severe. Of course, the government could also adopt Russia’s approach right away, but that’s unlikely, as it would provoke far too much resistance from citizens - they aren’t used to that level of restriction. If Europe does indeed continue moving in this direction, everything will happen gradually, just as it did in Russia; no one will roast a frog with a flamethrower - they’ll cook it according to the classic recipe, so to speak.
OK, got it. But it's important to remember that avoiding restrictions gets harder and harder every year. You have to juggle several protocols, have backup proxies, think about TLS nuances, keep in mind that you are being tracked after all. Lots of casual users just gave up. It's not like we find a solution and it just works — one has to adapt to new restrictive measures continuously.
I just don't understand why some other people in such discussions still think that its only about children and weigh pro and cons when they have an actual example of all these things being implemented.
> But it's important to remember that avoiding restrictions gets harder and harder every year.
Yes, that's right. Now the only reliable protocols to communicate with my friends in Russia seem to be e-mail ones like SMTP, because everything else constantly gets interrupted if not blocked completely. The only thing we can hope for here is that sooner or later, that hell will finally end; we just need to do what we do.
> I just don't understand why some other people in such discussions still think that its only about children and weigh pro and cons when they have an actual example of all these things being implemented.
Maybe I'm being kind of rude, but to me that seems just like... for the lack of better words, it seems like they're in denial. In a psychological sense, I mean.
Maybe I'm being kind of rude, but to me that seems just like... for the lack of better words, it seems like they're in denial. In a psychological sense, I mean.
There's a larger phenomenon than simple denial at work. Infantilization of adults is a necessary component of fascism. We are told, implicitly, that we are all the children of the state. Those who accept that message -- and there will always be some -- will embrace the protection promised by authoritarianism.
The actual children are, as always, just along for the ride.
Literally, tor.
Which will get blocked and go down, like, in no time. That's literally what happened in Russia - Tor is mostly unusable, you can't even bootstrap properly without some "tricks", so to speak.
Don't know, I use tor every day in Russia. Without it Internet would be unusable. The only problem I see is how to get initial distribution since the tor site is blocked.
Hmm... That's interesting. Maybe that depends on ISP, because my friends have told me they can't use Tor because they can't even bootstrap, even if they're using bridges.
I changed ISPs when moved from one city to another, no difference. Yes, there were several episodes when connecting required about half an hour of playing changing setting but eventually I could connect. Nowadays it seems that the government abandoned their efforts to block Tor traffic and mainly focused on blocking VPN and Telegram.
Now that (abandoning the efforts to block Tor so now it mostly works) sounds like some good news to me! Can you please share your settings or what exactly you use that works for you? Perhaps they will help my friends, too, because previously, they relied on Tor to circumvent the "network blockade", but it just stopped working for them at some point. And yes, they tried to play with settings as well but it didn't really help.
By the way, the level of ban enforcement can also vary from region to region regardless of ISPs (at least that's what I heard from some people), but anyway...
One solution is that United States radically supports free speech and provides Starlink access to Europeans as a humanitarian act.
It would be similar to Radio Free Europe which was broadcast to the former Soviet States.
It would be more like WWII-era Deutsche Welle, given who runs Starlink. Sites offensive to the Minister of Mechapropaganda might find themselves filtered.
> United States radically supports free speech
Sounds like some kind of utopia to me, given the current circumstances /s
Run to the Kremlin, with torches in your hands.
Yeah right, that worked out for Iranians quite well all these times.
Isn't putin begging y'all to get in tanks for Ukraine? Just find a like minded group of recruits and turn the tanks around
They thought of that. The Chechens, who were previously trying to kill Russians for free, are now paid by the Russians to do it [1].
1: https://torontosun.com/news/world/russian-execution-squads-h...
You seriously think the government has a clear, honest reasons, as stated?
Companies will be exempt (with remote employees having to identify linking their IP and computer's fingerprint with their real identity), and the next step, after using the law to silencing dissent, will be penalisation.
> You seriously think the government has a clear, honest reasons, as stated?
What made you think that I think so?
I inferred this from the attempt at looking at the positive outcomes of that.
Then I should assume that your "inference" ignores common sense, because nowhere in my comments was I praising some governments, either Russian or European, for their action. I merely pointed out that now, probably, some people from Europe may try to apply Russian experience at circumventing censorship, bans and "network blockades". That's a good thing in the context of this whole situation, because you don't have to figure everything out on your own, from the ground up - you already have some practical examples, researches, and, what's more important - allies. Maybe I'm dramatizing a bit here, but the way was already paved out - you just have to follow the path.
Now could you, please, show to me where exactly was I saying something positive about governments?
From my personal point of view and from my own experience, you have to look for positives if it's possible. The fact that you're still alive is already a positive, even if you're underground taking cover from bombshells and thinking that you may die tomorrow. If you're not looking for positive, you will loose your will to live and, eventually, you will die. Maybe that's making me look too optimistic, but for me that's literally the matter of survival. Sorry if my position was not clear from the beginning.
Sorry, I jumped to assumptions, thanks for answering. I mostly agree with your points, but can't really get into the intricate details now.
All these children laws end up as putting the onus on the adult to expose themself to whomever.
It used to be "don't give your name to anyone online" and now it's "hand it over when you're told".
The excuses used by a propagandising dictatorship (for basically everything they do not just this) wouldn't be effective propaganda if they didn't touch a percieved need.
Even as adults, many find Facebook and Twitter in particular to be repugnant, and use them anyway as an addiction. LinkedIn is more the butt of jokes about how everyone is excited by their new future even when they're newly looking for work, but at least they have minigames now.
YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok have a reputation for funelling people into conspiracies, but IDK if that's totally fair or them getting painted with the same brush in a moral panic.
> seeing many European governments tirelessly push for these new measures to protect the children, I'm pretty sure that the children are finally going to be safe online
There is strong, popular will for age gating social media. At the same time, at least in America, there is a deep streak of laziness and nihilism in the tech community that makes it civically useless. When combined, you get politicians getting calls every day to limit social media and little from experts on how.
So you get folks reaching for the first solution on the shelf, and then getting wedded to it. The correct approach is making this the social-media companies’ problem. If they wind up with users under N years old, they get fined. If you want to use social media, you put up with their BS. If not, you’re not affected. Unfortunately, I’ve worked on privacy and technical policy enough to be sceptical that anyone will actually pitch that to their elected. So we get this, instead. (And at the end of the day, I’ll take an imperfect solution over a perfect one that goes nowhere. Though the UK, as usual, seems to have found the worst of the bunch.)
The UK government have at least made it clear that they intend to ban right wing media and parties that aren't aligned.
A leaked strategy document from UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer's chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney, outlined their "Kill Musk's Twitter" to diminish the platform through advertiser pressure and regulatory action
That's already happening in the UK too.
Shortly after the Online Safety Act went into operation, there was politically charged/sensitive/opinionated content on X mysteriously disappearing for UK users but nobody else in the world.
Yeah. The children are just the excuse. They hate us for our freedome.
Nobody is surprised that Russia resorts to this. They are a potemkin dictatorship. But that the UK is also acting as a dictatorship - now that's interesting.
> But that the UK is also acting as a dictatorship - now that's interesting.
VPN banning is part of the same compulsion for control that made London a global leader (in surveillance of people not suspected of a crime).
ref: https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-08-14/the-t...
Non-nationalist parties that have been in power in Europe for so long are shitting their pants at the growing rise of nationalist parties and are absolutely planning to censor the shit out of them.
I'm not even taking a side here and what they are trying to do is obvious.
Somehow the "center"'s answer to the rise of right-wingers is stupid censorship, instead of fighting ideas with better ideas.
Alternatively, the center starts trying to attract right-wing voters by adopting right-wing ideas like anti-immigrant views or "well, we can sacrifice the climate a bit more" positions.
Keir Starmer is from a "left" party but his actions has shown him to be a centrist, Ursula von der Leyen is quite right. Then again, these are European positioning, as someone's said years ago, the European right-wing would be liberal in the US. And with the currently openly racist regime of the USA, even more so!
They will establish censorship laws to try to stem the tide only to be surprised Pikachu face when inevitably at some point in the future one of these right wingers will win and then use all these things against them. No one ever learns.
How is that happening? In the UK fringe nationalist parties are typically given as much airtime on main stream media as the governing parties. They've also setup their own 'news' stations to further spread propaganda. Any notion that they're being censored in the UK is ludicrous. They're pandered to.
This isn't an axis from freedom to control, with the country sitting at an identifiable point. All of these things are happening, antagonistically, at the same time. Right wing people set up a television station, government cracks down on the internet, courts protect people's rights to express philosophical beliefs, police record "non-crime hate incidents" for things written online. It's all chaotic.
But there’s no evidence that the UK government is going to disproportionately censor right wing parties on the internet either. It’s just a false analysis to link this possible age gating of VPNs with censorship of the political right.
Banning under 16s from social media is de-facto censorship of political views outside of those promulgated by mainstream media, and as the mainstream media in this country tends to be urban-liberal in orientation, this will have an effect. Perhaps the people who set up GB News were prescient to do so.
As other posters have pointed out, the mainstream media in the UK give Reform an incredibly easy time. Their leader is openly corrupt, but this barely merits a mention. Do you really think Keir Starmer is thrilled by the idea of young people getting their impression of him from current mainstream media reports? This just isn’t a plausible analysis.
(Also, it’s worth noting that the Conservatives support the same policy, and Reform support the principle while opposing the means.)
it would be great if they cared as much about the safety of kids in the streets
> it would be great if they cared as much about the safety of kids in the streets
car culture < childhood
This isn't a cynically curated viewpoint. It's some* of what we have and what that cost.
* we also have trespassing culture & stranger-danger culture. we ruined roaming and the childhood development it nurtured.
You think there wernt cars when I was a kid? I lived in the subs. Kid utopia!
Can you imagine bringing up cars in this thread?
> You think there wernt cars when I was a kid? I lived in the subs. Kid utopia!
I believe you. I'm likely older than you, so there were even fewer cars when I was a kid. I'm confident my utopia was even better than yours.
Between then and now we have a gradient of loss. My kids grew up under 24/7 adulting and had nowhere to go.
"My kids grew up under 24/7 adulting and had nowhere to go."
Yes but this has nothing to do with cars. What are you even protecting kids from anyway?
>> "My kids grew up under 24/7 adulting and had nowhere to go."
> Yes but this has nothing to do with cars. What are you even protecting kids from anyway?
It has everything to do with cars. Once my kids cross the yard, in all directions are the risk from cars, the risk of trespassing charges and that's about it.
In a few generations, kids went from countless square miles of free roam area to the few sq ft of their own property.
ref: https://old.reddit.com/r/CasualUK/comments/v8cyi7/map_compar...
> What are you even protecting kids from anyway?
Their reality is their reality. I didn't create it.
It's easy to blame the governments in this - and some of their decisions are idiotic - but most of the blame should go on the tech companies. The fact they think "our ToS says you have to be over 13" or a popup asking "are you over 18" is sufficient while they make billions is a disgrace. They're the reason the governments are sinking to these levels. It's not like they haven't been given every opportunity to do the sensible thing over decades.
Also the UK arrests people for online posts more than Russia, China or Belarus. It seems clear the gov wants to control all forms of speech and if they could control speech at home they would too further, I have little doubt if they could control your thoughts they would too. They’d be more than delighted to have people wear shock collars that shock wearers as they stray from received though patterns.
> the UK arrests people for online posts more than Russia, China or Belarus
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You’ve made an unsubstantiated assertion. I won’t hold my breath waiting for any references to support your ridiculous claim.
Here you go: https://pa.media/blogs/fact-check/fact-check-international-d...
Now, there is one big issue for a couple of countries and that's that Russia and China probably don't report on the same level as the UK and Germany though for the UK, not all jurisdictions returned an answer, so the stats are likely higher for the UK. Then again in Russia, you can comment all you want if you avoid the one subject, well, maybe two subjects.
Interesting. I suspect that in Russia and China there’s a fair bit of self-censorship going on as a result of their restrictions. Which implies that if the UK proceeds down this path, there would be a lagging drop in arrests (once people get the hint after a few well publicised incidents).
I also do not believe that this is primarily aimed at ptotecting children. I think the goal is to counteract the bot-farms that spread disinformation, instigate violence, and so on. Which Russia, by the way, pioneered and scaled up to make a material difference in elections in the West. It is a real problem for which no effective solution has been found.
> the main thing that we've done is we've commissioned additional research on this because I've not been happy with the evidence.
Ah, yes, the existing research doesn't agree with our biases, so let's fund new "research" that does.
Full context:
> Ms Kendall told Nick Ferrari: “I told MPs yesterday I'm going to come back to the House with a statement on the issue of VPNs in July. There are very strong views on both sides of this. For some people, it is about privacy, and it is the ability to use that is really held strongly by people. And for others, they say they should be banned because kids are using them to get around. And so I— the main thing that we've done is we've commissioned additional research on this because I've not been happy with the evidence."
Sounds like they realize there are two sides and no "clear winning argument" in either direction, that's why the additional research is needed. Sounds a bit more nuanced than what I expected based on your snippet.
What is there to research? Yes, VPNs can be used to circumvent geofences (and by extension, regional age restrictions). Yes, attempting to age-restrict VPNs is at odds with strong privacy guarantees. Privacy is a human right, and one which is essential for effective democracy.
> What is there to research?
The trade-offs and how many people care and about what specifically.
E.g., you say "Privacy is a human right", so why is it that half the websites I visit ask for permission to share details of how I use those sites with more corporate "trusted partners" than there were students and staff combined in my secondary school? I'm all on board with just banning this kind of analytics, but there's a lot of people who are more angry with the EU for forcing companies to at least ask for permission before they sell your data to all those analytics firms.
Because they ask for permission, get it?
> E.g., you say "Privacy is a human right", so why is it that half the websites I visit ask for permission to share details of how I use those sites with more corporate "trusted partners" than there were students and staff combined in my secondary school?
Because capitalism itself is the enemy.
And information assymmetry is a potent tool, as is constant and persistent surveillance. All of these enable extracting more money.
>Because capitalism itself is the enemy.
Let's be real here. It's investor-monopoly capitalism that is the problem. Individuals worth less than $100,000,000 owning private property or their businesses isn't the problem, it's the Financial-Industrial-Complex with its Dodge vs Ford ruling (established duty to maximize shareholder returns) that is the problem. People owning their homes, cars, agriculture fields, tractors, semi-trucks, and small/medium business are not the cause of our ills. The cause is the financialization of everything, turning everyone into rent-paying debtors always on the precarious edge. Free enterprise is good, but monopoly enterprise is not. Quit making people race to the bottom in competition for basic survival, and start making the moneyed monopolists do it instead!
Yeah, you don't have these issues in communist countries. . .
More than one set of policies and ideals can be shitty at the same time. Just because authoritarian central planned economies failed doesn't mean we should never try anything else ever again that isn't pure capitalism or refuse to criticize its faults.
You can complain (read: peaceful protest for redress of grievances) without going whole hog the complete opposite way.
Most of this end-stage crapitalism was warned by Adam Smith, and then by Marx.
And what did economists do? Fucking ignore it. Or named it trickle down.
So, yeah. When the capitalists control the government, you get all the abuses written about it for the last 300 years. And it fucking shows.
Computation and copyright was just dropping helicopter loads of gasoline on the already terrible fire.
It's the UK gov. Rather than do something, it's endless inquiries and 'research'.
Example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Thames_Crossing - the planning application is 360,000 pages and not a single shovel is in the ground. Or HS2. The list goes on. This is a really, really minor example of the same sickness that infests British politics for the last few decades.
Are there ways of doing age gating while preserving privacy? For whom? How many people need that kind of privacy, would it impact lots of (say) teens seeking help or is this about whistleblowers? Are many under 18s using VPNs for porn? Or have they just shifted to other platforms anyway? If we implemented it “perfectly” would it even do the thing we wanted?
What are the actual numbers here? If there’s lots of fuss about vpns but actually while there’s been a big jump in use it’s not under 18s anyway it wouldn’t help.
> Privacy is a human right, and one which is essential for effective democracy.
And does this get broken enough for age gating something? We age gate alcohol to reasonable success, sometimes that involves showing id.
I’m not arguing for age gating here but I do think understanding the tradeoffs may require more evidence.
>We age gate alcohol to reasonable success,
We shouldn't.
>sometimes that involves showing id.
Then the yokel checkout attendant proceeds to punch the 8 digit birthday into the keyboard, which serializes you as one of less than 30,000 customers in the area. Birthdays are leaky identifiers.
Good thing then that Democracy isn’t gonna defend itself.
I don't know how this works in the UK, but where I am at that would look like politicians just fishing for bribes while they stall committing to any action which also helps in PR.
But that's the point, circumvent democracy, to set the stage for techno-fascism. The citizen has no rights which the state is bound to respect.
By all means.
For example the vast majority of the UK residents is against the ongoing support and complicity of the UK in the genocide of Palestinians, to which the government orchestrated the whole operation to turn the protest into act of terrorism (!).
Etc.
Got any numbers/sources for that specific claim?
Yeah.
Polls from Opinium, YouGov, even earlier ipsos, showing that UK general public does not support the genocide, but immediate ceasefire, stopping sale of arms to Israel, back ICC, et.
You'd struggle to find anything that would show that UK public support aiding and abetting.
Set the stage? Techno-fascism is already here. Private conglomerates own all the 21st century “commons” that matter and can already de-platform you at will with no explanation and no recourse, including from those platforms necessary for survival in the modern world (banking/payments).
If anything, (western) governments are late to this game.
> What is there to research?
Probably how they can best attach a license to VPN use like they're doing with TV.
Hi! It sounds like you may have misunderstood the TV license as you seem to be describing it as a recent thing whereas it was introduced 80 years ago in 1946. The point of the license was always to fund broadcast content--not sure how this could apply to VPN use. I think the discussion of VPNs relates to how, if we decided it was appropriate to block foreign sites, you'd accomplish this. As somebody who grew up in the heady days of the early internet this who conversation saddens me, but when you hear for example interviews with the folks running Roblox you can see where these ideas come from....
"I want to do the thing that gets me the most votes and carries the least political risk". Note this is not necessarily the wisest thing, or even the thing that objectively solves or mitigates the problem the most. Many such cases...
Democracy is a consent [to be ruled] manufacturing system which defuses head-lopping popular rebellions. It is not for the benefit of the people.
These people created a law that is catastrophic for privacy, so I don't believe they will be stopped from banning VPN's just because someone claims VPN's are good for privacy.
> they say they should be banned because kids are using them to get around.
Ummm what??? lolll
if they don't want their kids using vpn... why would banning vpn for everyone and requiring ID verification be the answer? LOLLLL
That sounds like they need to control their kids
"it's hard" ...
"WHY DID YOU HAVE KIDS THEN?!?!?!"
>both sides
More context:
> Elizabeth Louise Kendall (born 11 June 1971)[1] is a British politician who has served as Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology > [sic] graduating with first class honours in history in 1993 > [sic] after graduating from Cambridge, worked at the Institute for Public Policy Research (charity)
tl;dr never worked in the private sector, and utterly unqualified to make judgements on technology.
So of course she's the science minister.
This is what UK parliament is full of, ill qualified, political lifers.
What a depressing time to live in the UK.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Kendall
Reminds me of the drugs tsar, Dr Nutt, saying that drugs should be legalised/decriminalised. So he got sacked.
Quite often, people in power don’t want to hear the truth, they want to hear their own words/views parroted back to them.
To put it into perspective he was asked to do the harm review, in which he proved how much more harmful the legal drugs (alcohol and nicotine) are from some of the banned ones (namely cannabis, LSD or Psylocibin).
Famously at the exact same time UK was claiming there was no evidence of the medicinal use of the cannabis, the UK was also the biggest exporter of it, and all was then turned into Sativex, a cannabis based medicine, not approved for use in the UK of course (individual import is allowed).
Interesting is that the husband of one of the very prominent Home Secretary and later Prime Minister is a senior executive in the producet.
Of course there's no suggestion of the financial interest of them in keeping a monopoly. See also: https://leftfootforward.org/2021/04/revealed-uk-is-the-world...
Nothing new unfortunately [0]. Happy to trust the science as long as it suits them.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Dismissal
Obviously Labour has been "lobbied" and now have to deliver this for whoever wants this.
It's pathetic how they use sobbing families to push it through, similar tactic like before Iraq invasion.
same players behind the scenes.
This is pretty much it. Bought and paid for, or hand forced by intelligence powers operating beyond ordinary voter politics
Conspiracy theory^
This is happening worldwide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_age_verification_laws_b...
What you linked is the evidence of the conspiracy, no need to turn it the other way round.
The fact that it's coordinated in all "Western" countries show it's a real conspiracy, not just a theory.
If your argument is that a group is conspiring to establish policy in a country, the idea that it's happening in many, many countries means the threshold for evidence is now much higher, since the group should be able to have much more control.
This is the logical conclusion but there is currently a mass wave of Meta grunts downvoting.
Apparently if countries all put an age limit on tobacco it must mean there is a secret group coordinating for it for ulterior reasons.
I wonder what happened in the past 3 years which put this on the agenda of all these countries.
8 individuals have as much money, and much more power, than half of the globe's population.
The fact that you think there's no such group is simply insane.
I mean, the very agenda of their upcoming conference was on the front page of HackerNews a few days ago...
It's as much of a "conspiracy theory" as ordinary monetary corruption worldwide: There doesn't need to be any connection or conspiracy between politicians who take bribes, just like there doesn't need to be any connection or conspiracy between politicians who push for more surveillance and control over others.
Oh yes like Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey. If it is happening worldwide, it is less likely to be a coordinated scheme and more likely coming to the same conclusions based on current research.
Edit because I'm getting limited:
This isn't exactly something old that has been going on for decades in its current form and the usage has increased especially since the lockdowns. Nations have also been copying each other for centuries, you don't need a secret group coordinating for it with a singular ulterior motive.
Oh yes sorry, Western countries and dictatorships.
But sure, all governments suddenly woke up at the exact same time, give or take a few months, and realized that social media should be banned for kids.
I think they all wanted to control internet access since the arab spring, but they didn't have a good wedge. Now the data around harm to children is widely available, they all have the same excuse they can use at the same time.
Or maybe different people respond similarly to the same incentives.
For decades companies like Facebook have been saying you just have to let us groom children, there's no way to have this tech and not groom children. Now the predictable consequences of that are arriving: the tech industry is being turned off, because it grooms children.
And when I say groom children, I'm talking about actual child predators, not the transphobic nonsense point.
Isn't it how it alwasy works?
The tobacco industry has decades worth of research saying smoking was beneficial. The antis just kept funding more studies.
So the government can't do the exact thing?
I've been using a VPN in the UK on my laptop and phone exclusively for 20 years, and the state has been working with ISPs to make "connection records" for most of that time.
On mobile a VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit. Using the web interface avoids this.
The UK has also moved to force ISPs to block certain bittorrent search engines.
The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.
>The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.
Definitely doesn't shy away from doing it! But one thing I find most irritating is that it seems reluctant to say it proud and loud.
Look at the situation with 4chan and Kiwifarms. They are basically asking to be blocked from the UK and they refuse to. I can't really say why the onus is put on the websites to enact blocks, but my suspicion is the government doesn't like the idea of displaying an official page stating that you are not allowed to see something because the government doesn't want you to.
>the government doesn't like the idea of displaying an official page stating that you are not allowed to see something
They don't even have to do that, the connection can just be left to time out on the client side. This is what they did (and some ISPs still do) for the Internet Archive...
Yes, archive.org is classed as an adult site in the UK.
The UK is a funny place. 4chan is accessible but IPTorrents is blocked.
Browsing with a VPN is a frustrating experience. They are abused by many of their users which leads to circular capture checks and straight blocks.
I recommend deploying the BitMagnet docker (behind a VPN with assurances it is offline if the VPN cuts out).
Censorship-free magnet crawling!
On the mobile apps can check your SIMs country code. This is how bluesky knows the UK users (they used to use IP, not anymore)
In retrospect native apps were a terrible idea. I try to use web apps as much as possible.
On iOS, the CTCarrier calls for SIM info were deprecated back in iOS 16 and now just return blank data.
What they can check is which region of App Store they were installed from.
Yeah, that's an ideal situation. The devs say they're going to eventually fix that, but their priority is the device security, not privacy.
I checked mine and it's a little bit weird - even with the physical Sim disabled and esim (from another country) enabled, it was returning physical sim data.
There's hope tho.
Come iToddlers and the Samstung, Pixel [soon Motorola] with GrapheneOS is the way!
I'm writing it from GoS device, CC can be accessed by the apps.
There's plenty on the roadmap from what I see, although this phone is infinitely better than with the standard OS.
Hmm, would it be possible to avoid it by using no SIM in the device and WiFi/VoIP only (whether mobile hotspot or some fixed internet)? It would mean an extra device to carry around but if country detection by native apps is in your threat model...
Well, sure.
>The UK is not shy when it comes to invading your privacy or censoring the Internet.
The sage Eric Blair was a Brit.
> On mobile a VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks.
It seems like your VPN setup has a leak, or the real location is obtained otherwise through the operating system (locale setting or GPS).
I would be surprised if your locale leaked on GrapheneOS for example.
Company like this exist
https://www.geocomply.com/
Mobile browsing should be considered high risk for most users except for the most mundane activities.
> On mobile VPN isn't always effective in avoid geoblocks. Some apps are able to determine I'm in the UK and still ask for ID - reddit is one for example, if you stumble on to an adult subreddit.
I've never had this issue (using Private Internet Access on iOS).
I'm a Brit living abroad, when I visit the UK I use a Tailscale network with an exit node at my home, and yeah this always seems to work for me.
Going the other way around to try and watch British TV I used to find with a normal hosted VPN services could still figure out I wasn't in the country, but now I have a Tailscale exit node at my mum's place in the UK it always works fine.
So I suspect it all comes down to the IP source, probably a residential IP is the best possible case and with commercial VPNs it depends on how hard they work on isolating their IP blocks from known datacentres.
Apps can read sim card info. Its country and whether the card is currently in roaming, you can't full them that way
You would need to get your sim card out of your phone and use wifi or buy one of them foreign esim
For vpns I actually found that websites that block vpns for some reasons are worse at detecting commercial vpns than when you deploy your own on vps
---
Also I forgot about other things. When my phone for some unknown reason had its region set as GB, I had British ads in YouTube music
> Apps can read sim card info
Not on iOS
Commercial VPNs publish their exit nodes IPs online. There are services like ipinfo.io which can accurately determine if you are using a known VPN service.
Some context - Birmingham Mail is one of dozens of clickbait-driven publications owned by Reach plc.
They're not a high quality source of news - they've more than decimated their journalism staff and replaced them with 'content' staff who are performance monitored on the number of clicks their articles generate.
Content is syndicated in different accents across their range of papers from the national papers, The Mirror and The Daily Express down into a large number of notionally 'local' outlets.
So, take it with a pinch of salt.
The article is based on a direct quote given to the BBC, which you can find the original article here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9824zvpz9po
The link is 100% true in this case.
Yeah I've seen similar stories a few times this week and it's always one of the dodgy regional media sites. Shame it's getting so much traction here.
At least we get to raise the next generation of IT geeks because they'll have to understand a bunch of networking basics to watch porn, and might get hooked on it. (on IT)
Or they will ask their AI to do that for them, learn very little about the networking stack in the process
Unless AI detects their prompt is from UK and they reply: Sorry I am not allowed to do that.
Oss AI is good enough for that
I am sure a contract with Palantir to find these miscreants is just around the corner.
Israel will be making kill on this, they will unleash their free VPNs to the young people like they did to Iran. UK national security will be like Suisse cheese
Their kompromat-gathering is first class... maybe even the best!
In a way, the cack-handed way they've gone about this makes me slightly more optimistic. If we must have such a law, please let it be one which:
* Creates a market for privacy tech of several million teenagers
* Wastes police time chasing down social forums which kids are hosting abroad using their pocket money
* Rubs the noses of the securirati in the fact that they've made it easier for terrorists to hide their comms among the thousands of teenage speakeasies
This is not the 80's when comms tech required capital and man-years of engineering. Setting up forums online isn't even a high-school project.
I'm very much in favour of blocking children from social media - it's an absolutely vile cesspit of cognitive addiction, bullying and social (and potential sexual) abuse. But none of it requires a mass-surveillance network to be put in place.
Just for one example; it would be trivial for Apple and Google to put age estimation on my phone, verify it on opening the web browser and provide a zero-knowledge proof of age to websites in a way that does not reveal my identity. All the infrastructure is already there, and it's relatively trivial to turn it on. The downside is that this will only work for people who are older than about 25 because of the uncertainty of face-to-age recognition, but it would be a start.
Another way to do it is for my bank, who know my age already, providing a similar credential that I can feed into the zero-knowledge proof engine on the phone.
This was all done properly for the covid tracking apps, at a time when the phone providers actually wanted to do tracking with anonymity - this is a similar problem, and it's easily cracked by technical means.
And you don't even need zero knowledge proofs if you perform on-device content detection - turn it on for kids, keep it off for adults. Modern phones have more than enough TPU capacity to do this.
But none of the actual implementations I've seen are truly anonymizing, and they all rely on trusting some really dodgy companies with your identity and browsing habits. Yes, the more respectable ones have security and privacy policies that are audited, but will they always? The cynical answer is "no", because history shows that someone will always do something sooner or later if (a) it makes money, and (b) they can get away with it.
Everything I see suggests that the desire for mass surveillance is the driver, and the "protect the children" front on this is a strategem by the people who are really driving this from behind the curtain. There are huge amounts of money to be made by capturing verifiable, blackmailable, personal data, and this is a magic money fountain for those who will be able to mine it.
In more sensible times, we'd run an ad campaign highlighting the dangers and informational campaigns for parents on what to do to prevent your children getting access to social media.
Perfect is impossible, but if its stigmatised then the network effects stop being so punitive to children who have reasonable parents.
it's the 10-80-10 rule: 10% of kids will still access social media, 10% will never... but 80% can be swayed.
bruhghghbmphf, the VPNs! the VPNs! can't have those! What's that good sir? You say ssh? Do not shh me sir. Oh, SSH... yes, SSH, can't have that! It's elementary, any system which one accesses MUST report to parliament. Personally Identifiable Documents for General Evaluation Of Ne'er-do-wells. We'll call it the P.I.D.G.E.O.N. network.
It's never about the technical capability of the tool. This is a mistake technologists keep making. It's about what the average person thinks it does or uses it to do.
Ban VPNs, an industry of SOCKS5 proxies will boom. Ban those, put the SOCKS5 proxy behind an SSH port-forward, and so on and so forth. Suddenly calling a Kubernetes API puts you in a secret service list somewhere.
You seem to think they're banning OpenVPN protocol and if you just use a different protocol you can work around it. They're not, they're banning privacy.
We’ll just invent internet over WebRTC hops… wait..
Isn't that liblyrebird/Snowflake that Orbot/Whonix/TBB use as an anticensorship gateway?
If you ban IPsec ESP people will start using WireGuard on random ports.
If you ban WireGuard using DPI people will start using SSL VPNs.
If you ban SSL you ban the entire internet.
They don't want perfection. They want to move things forward, for their definition of forward.
If they ban bog standard VPNs and find out they're still being used, they'll punish the VPN companies.
If the VPN companies create workarounds and avoid the punishment, they'll punish the payment processors.
If the VPN companies start using esoteric workarounds and taking cryptocurrency for payment, then they've mostly won -- most people aren't going to deal with that shit.
All the while, they'll still go after the social media/etc companies for allowing circumvention of age-gating. So the social media companies will crack down on our ability to visit their sites with any sort of privacy.
My point: laws are all imperfect but can still have a huge effect. Pointing out work arounds doesn't change that.
For context, I'm really disturbed by the recent move to punish people seeking privacy instead of the social media companies that are enabling this social media shit. They know who the companies are, since that's who they're going to punish for not age gating. But they'd (I'm talking about US based age-gating pushes as well) rather fuck with our privacy and make our PII more susceptible to data breaches than tell the social media companies to eat shit.
Mullvad already does all of the things you mentioned. Cryptocurrency payments with no KYC, and many anti-censorship [1] methods. Moreover, their mobile and desktop apps apply heuristics to find combinations of anti-censorship measures that work automatically. It's very user friendly (all the user needs to do is press on connect). So, the blocking attempts are still pointless because large, prominent providers already make all these bypass methods very user friendly.
[1] https://mullvad.net/en/help/connecting-to-mullvad-vpn-from-r...
Mullvad also accepts anonymous cash in an envelope, which should be simple enough even for Luddites (until they finally ban cash).
>most people aren't going to deal with that shit
Then we cipherpunks dunk on and make fun of them as we jet by in our cool top-down VPN convertibles! They can be ID cucks while we enjoy all the finer things on the internet!
Liberty and privacy aren't free; it takes sweat off the brow or the blood of sacrifice to preserve or claw back to.
Good thing Brexit happened to prevent government overreach.
Tbf the point was to prevent the EU 'overreach' i.e stopping us violating our own peoples human rights. We can violate them freely now. Success.
Better then performing a social experiment on children.
This is not to stop children from doing that. This is primarily to deanonymise as many people as possible, before the next steps come into force (scanning all files and messages on the every Internet - connected devices, hardware attestation of all the internet - connected devices, etc)
So when the citizens inevitably start protesting against the oppression, it's easier to subdue them.
don't worry they're still doing that
The great firewall of UK.
Feel like there ought to be some Sinn Fein backed point to point connection in Belfast that leverages the Good Friday Agreement to get around this.
It would have to alter the voice of anyone on it to make them sound ridiculous.
For yanks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%80%931994_British_broa...
You omitted to mention that the Irish state broadcaster, RTE, actually implemented voice restrictions before the UK did:
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0119/1217560-section-31-b...
Hadrian’s Firewall
Hadrian's Gate
Every corporate I know of, uses VPNs. Especially when workers connect from home. Is the UK government really interested in going up against the majority of their business partners...?
Laws don't apply to corporations. It'll only be used to punish individuals.
How do you tell the difference between someone working from home, and someone just at home?
The government use VPNs. The ban will target individual use.
It's not about a technical capability to encapsulate packets, it's about whether people use it to bypass censorship or not.
If the capability is used... How do you tell how people are using it?
Many ways. You could ask them. You could watch how they behave. You could look at how the product is advertised. You could try the product yourself and see what it does.
There is nothing in this article that suggests the UK government are planning to ban VPNs.
There is lots in the article that suggests they want to ban them for minors though. How the hell is that supposed to work without at a minimum a severe curtailment of VPNs in general?
So no, not a ban for all. A ban for minors, and a severe curtailment in general. The parent post might not be 100% accurate, but it's close.
A lot of corporations use crappy VPN-like MitM services like Zscaler.
It would not be hard to write laws to restrict one use but not the other. They may be the same tech but the use-cases are quite different.
Most VPN companies won't implement age verification, because their purpose is privacy. This is really an attempt to ban VPNs. This won't be popular when 70% of the population uses VPNs.
> when 70% of the population uses VPNs.
To be honest, unfortunately, I'm not really sure about this one.
Me neither.
I would suspect maybe <1% of the population uses VPNs. At least outside of work environments and connecting to intranets.
A large chunk of them is from China :p
> Most VPN companies won't implement age verification, because their purpose is privacy.
They will when it's law. Their purpose is most likely either snake oil, or bypassing geo restricctions on netflix or sports.
Most VPN providers are purely profit-driven enterprises, they don't give a shit about privacy. There are only a handful that would turn away UK business instead of requiring ID.
Oi m8! U got a fooken loicense fer dem veepee-en or wot?!
The "loicense m8" memes are getting less and less funny ...
1. Age-gate social media
2. Children start using VPNs to bypass the ban
3. Age-gate VPNs
4. Repeat steps 2-3
Truly a masterful plan.
It's actually
1. Ban something
2. People bypass the ban
3. Ban however they're bypassing the ban
4. Goto 2
Don't forget about plans to scan phones (in this iteration).
There are few things more exciting, in relationship to attempting to restrict access to (data) communications, than a government which thinks geeks won't find ways around such. Now sit back, relax, and let's wait for the next generation of encrypted channels solution development.
This isn't something that can be defeated like this. You are right, there will be ways around this. But we also have to be honest: being able to buy "off the shelf", two click VPN solution for 5$ already puts you into "geek" category. Relatively speaking.
If they ban the commercial providers, payment processors will be the first to enforce it. And Google and Apple will throw the 1-Click solutions out of their app store for users from those countries immediately. And with that the topic is effectively dead even for most "geeks". At this point the goal is already pretty much achieved, most people are cutoff and under heavier surveillance. Next comes the group that know what a server is, how to rent one, what OpenVPN or Wireguard are. But many of the most used websites already make your life difficult if your IP is from such a range.
It goes on. At each step you can argue "there is still a way, as long as you got networking with other countries". Absolutely correct, but at each step the group who knows how and is willing to invest the energy shrinks. And the intended goal will likely already be achieved at the mentioned phase 1 above. The fact that some people still find ways isn't really a gotcha in this matter.
And at some point they will criminalize it. Does it matter that they are unlikely to catch you? Is it worth the risk? And if so, what if you catch strays for it from an unrelated matter. Ultimately they will simply target the devs that help build easy solution for the less tech-savy.
One big reason why you want to keep a bunch of nerds tunneling out around anyway is that you keep useful, defusing attitudes like that floating around. Aka "It's not that bad, there are still ways around it, haha, those idiots".
> being able to buy "off the shelf", two click VPN solution for 5$ already puts you into "geek" category
I’m not sure that’s true anymore. I discovered recently my 70 year old, very technology-averse, parents are using a VPN (much to my initial concern). I think it’s for viewing football matches, or so they can watch iPlayer when they travel. They’re advertised on buses, etc. They’re pretty common these days.
That said I think you’re right that a block at the App Store level etc is enough to cut usage significantly.
They know they'll find workarounds, they'll just arrest whoever is involved in the workarounds. Law isn't a computer firewall, it's a loaded weapon.
The beauty of VPNs is that you do not need to have a presence in the UK to make or sell one. And there's a huge amount of money in it.
The law is very bad at dealing with such realities, see also piracy and drugs. The last time I checked TPB is still accessible in the UK with only DoH.
So they'll just arrest you if you're caught importing VPN paraphernalia (whatever that means), using a VPN, being a payment processor and allowing money to be spent on a VPN, and so on. Just like they do with drugs. Got Wireguard on your computer? Off to jail with you.
Some ISPs block based on TLS SNI sniffing (so perhaps ECH will save us)
It is technically possible to circumvent the Great Firewall of China, but I think it's fair to say it's been successful in what it set out to achieve.
Oh, they're in motion already. There are other countries that tried to ban VPNs for decades now, that sparked multiple great avenues of development.
It's exciting to think I'll become a dissident like my parents, just because I don't want a slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil me.
but isn't it the labour party pushing this?
Labour-in-the-name-only is a far right at the moment (left to Tories and Farage on social issues, right of Tories and almost at Farage on domestic and international affairs).
Once Starmer hijacked the party based on the scammy set of pledges[1], he promptly started removing of anyone remotely "leftist", then started competing with Tories in cruelty and with Reform at hostility.
Yeah, that labour party.
[1] https://www.clpd.org.uk/resource/keir-starmer-10-pledges/
how would EU nationals have "full voting rights"?
Anyway 4/10 explicitly mention going against the Tory party, which is also a classic mistake of weakness.
I don't understand your first question?
Anyway, on EU nationals he went full rabid xenophobe so that's a moot point anyway.
The Labour have their own friends of Epstein too, see the Mandelson scandal, and some think Labour's much more rightwing now than it needs to be.
left and right appear to have lost all meaning
Left vs right is how the Epstein Class divide and conquer the electorate.
Perhaps then you could at least vaguely understand the desire of people to avoid having slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein and other known abusers to ID and surveil their children.
I definitely see both sides of this argument but to pretend the answers here are obvious just means people aren’t being serious. Serious harm is being caused to children and just because that’s a known cliche doesn’t make it not a real concern people have.
The slimy, rightwing, greasy friends of Epstein own all the main political parties, the UK's mainstream media, most of the social networks, and have their fingers in the NHS.
The UK hasn't been quick to deal with Epstein's associates and has a long history of either ignoring or losing critical evidence in CSA cases associated with politicians and public figures.
With that background, mandatory ID makes it easier, not harder, for abusers to act with impunity and/or official protection.
Look, the excuse is being made that kids are exposed to harms in online places, in general.
Most famously in Roblox (that's now fixed on Roblox side first with age banding, now by sharding it into three parts), and then in socials -- but the impact of, say, Instagram where kids are preyed upon because the algorithms are promoting them to preying populace, and where Meta openly runs experiments with their mental health, knowingly pushing them into harms way, is vastly different from, say, Coverstar.
Impact of abuse from Meta is well documented already, yet Meta is not punished. Kids are being radicalised by being fed toxic content, and it's also well known. Elon Musk's X was knowingly producing CSAM and non consensual nude images of real people and it took a tremendous amount of time for _anything_ to happen - and I don't see Musk on the dock yet?
There are ways to automatically block almost all kids on socials. Take away DMs and comments on the posts from all unverified users and kids suddenly will be much safer. All that can be done today.
The greasy friends of Epstein are running this shitshow, they're in the government (most famously PM of the UK knowingly appointed a longtime Epstein friend as the UK ambassador for the US), they've been covering Jimmy Saville abuses in the BBC, Police forces, the past government, which receives financial incentives from some of these companies to push things exactly the way they want.
Most severe harm to children is caused with the tacit approval of the government and media.
Sneaky access to the socials is not this.
Oh, and you know what? Receipts show it's Meta behind this weird, sudden push for age checks. Meta and their $2B.
So you already know something's off, or at least you should.
It is so funny to read. They are so stupid.
The moment the UK does this, politicians in other Western countries are going to start thinking that its a good idea and attempting to copy the UK.
Doesn't the UK already have geo-targeted age verification infrastructure in place? A website or app could require the user to submit a live video of themselves quaffing a local beer.
No. It has laws that websites must follow to serve content in the UK. It’s up to the websites to do the age verification themselves, and the majority use third party ID verification services. Reddit used an American company to do it,
Damnably hard to find local ales. I had to wander for hours last time I was in London to get Fullers.
I'm curious what GCHQ make of all this. Increased VPN usage will reduce their visibility into internet traffic. They can try to force VPN providers to implement ID checks but if the provider is overseas it's not so easy to get that information.
Not to mention that this will be used as an opportunity by state actors to harvest info on UK citizens via hostile VPN services.
Anyone who thinks parenting by legislation is a good solution to anything should be neither a parent nor a legislator.
I'm pretty busy and behind the times a bit on this one. What is a practical method to avoid such a ban? I'm not in the UK, but there seems to be a general anti-privacy movement that is sweeping the globe.
What can we do when such a law comes to our country?
- Route all traffic via tor, then connect to a VPN from Tor?
- Finally learn I2P?
- Something else?
The vast majority of children cannot and do not buy and pay for VPNs and use them to evade anything. The second that governments said "We intend to ban VPNs" they gave away the game as to what their actual intent was, and it wasn't "for the children"
This will be interesting to follow. I dont see how this can be fully enforced. Maybe for iOS and other platform where app distribution is highly restricted, but on linux, windows and even macOS i can use mullvad, sending cash in an envelope without ever revealing my identity.
The idea is that it doesn't matter if the ban is fully enforced. Most children only have a smartphone and they're the target of the ban.
they can forbid mullvad.
How would that work? The UK can presumably ban Mullvad from operating in the UK, but I don't see how it can prevent outbound connections to Mullvad servers elsewhere, short of implementing a nation-wide firewall like China or Iran. And even in those places the firewall is pourous and routinely circumvented.
mullvad client relies on known servers, you could ban their access at the IP level from UK ISP. nothing complicated really
States have been the most terrible churches imagineable!
No one can be a true Atheist and not also be an Anarchist, and no one can be a true Anarchist and not also be an Atheist [all Scotsmen aside here :^)].
Apostates and criminals are synonymous.
What if I use a VPS instead? What if it's a virtual private VPS wholely in memory? What if it's a pool of VPS boxes shared by me and a network of people?
There's always a way around, but this direction is concerning.
They're banking on the number of kids using that mechanism to bypass the ban being small.
I'm not in favour of this but I'm acknowledging that if the number of children accessing social media drops significantly because of a VPN ban then they've achieved what they set out to do.
I don't like the salami slice tactics of not including this in previous legislation despite knowing that it would be necessary to enforce the social media ban. There would have been a lot less support if it was presented as a complete package that could be debated in it's whole.
While I do support restricting social media to younger minds, the way they go about it, and the collateral damage that will result is unacceptable. For about 500ms I thought I might have found the "one thing" I agree with this government, but nope... I'm considering whether it's time to leave the UK. There is an air of hostility here towards... well everything.
Leaving is not the hard decision. The hard decision is where to go. Do you have any suggestions?
Leaving IS the hard decision for me. I love the UK, and I am full of gratitude to live in England. I know anywhere else will be a downgrade. See my reply above for my current list of options.
Where would you go to then? European countries, Australia and American states already have implemented or are keen to implement ID requirements/tracking for websites.
If it was just ID, or just X or just Y, that would have been manageable. It's the barrage of action against people who are actually trying to be productive in society. Success is now penalised here.
Where to go - well... There are options. Not many but they exist; south east asia (e.g. Thailand), The Channel islands, The Emirates if that's your thing. I'm sure there are more - I'm doing my due diligence on the options now. But I REALLY wish I didn't feel like I have to. I want my country to love me back like I love it, but right now it feels a bit one-sided.
At some point there has to be a line past which you can still get a clean network between A and B somehow. At very least for corporate, right?
Too many people are seeing this like engineers and not like bureaucrats.
They won't be able to block all VPN services, and they don't really care. VPN still works in China. The entire point is to acclimate the public to a system of fear and control. You won't get arrested because you used a VPN, you'll get arrested a few weeks later because your neighbor snitched on you. They can easily enforce these laws without any form of technology.
> They won't be able to block all VPN services, and they don't really care
The simpler explanation suffices. Politicians want to react to a political demand and don’t really care about the implementation details.
Glad HN is getting to experience the true level of adverts on “news” sites in the UK. It really is next level.
Adblock??
That will be illegal soon enough.
They can have their cookie, I'm deleting it as soon as I close my browser.
Funny how quickly "won't someone think of the children" turns into mandatory government ID for private services, banning necessary and secure (and encrypted) communications systems, and locking children out of access to the de facto communication systems of the modern era.
This is a privacy nightmare on all fronts and a horrible limit on freedom of speech. These kids will be learning how to drive a car, yet unable to contact their extended family over Messenger or follow news on Twitter. For everyone else, it means no anonymity or secrecy which has a chilling effect on free speech at a time when fascism is growing within democratic countries and dissidents are being imprisoned or murdered.
Yes, there are some really big problems with social media, but keeping children away from it doesn't fix the problems - it just leaves them for the rest of us to deal with. Let's fix the root of the problem, starting with the recommendation algorithms that inherently polarize people by building echo chambers around them and pushing divisive content all in the name of "engagement".
That's because the tech industry never made any attempt. It's like you blocked all the good options, now you get the worst one because it's one you can't block.
Uk kids about to discover the power of Hetzner Linux vps + vnc.
And then UK residents are going to discover the "power" of government which will require age verification for renting a VPS or VDS or any other kind of cloud infrastructure, tied directly to your passport/ID, because "many families are desperate for this to happen and I listen particularly to bereaved families that say the longer we delay this, the more children are put at risk".
/j or /s
P.S. by the way, is it possible for them to use Hetzner? Don't they need something like credit card?
Perhaps it'll work like dodgy boxes/firesticks, where you have a handful of people who individually set up their own service then charge a fee for access.
What about the services that rent vps/compute for crypto?
I'm not so sure, but aren't some attempts to regulate the cryptocurrencies (therefore completely obliterating their initial goal to be government-independent) already have been made? Maybe I'm wrong though, because I don't really remember... Probably I have to look it up.
Anyway, how would they obtain the (let's say) Bitcoin to pay for VPS?
Just moved back to the UK after many years away, and it's creepy here. Doing the elderly under terror legislation, some crazy kangaroo court antics, a frankly sinister approach to "online safety". VPNs?
The even more concerning thing is that we've got a far right party that have been leading in the polls for most of the last year.
This is a very dangerous situation.
Where is the evidence for that? Though I grant they may get into power and suddenly change their mind, at the moment those parties are against digital dystopia, most likely because the centrist parties are most interested in using those tools to silence criticism of current immigration policy and other failings.
-Reform UK vows to repeal ‘borderline dystopian’ Online Safety Act https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/28/reform-uk-v...
"Block the Introduction of Digital ID." "Repeal the Online Safety Act." https://www.restorebritain.org.uk/restore_civil_liberties
And the left are also being surveilled and censored, e.g pro-palestine / anti-war / anti-capitalist groups, though the strategy used there is less censorship and more often bogging those groups down with infighting about identity issues. What seems more dangerous is letting the increasingly tyrannical centrist establishment, dead set on stagnation and "managed decline", give legitimacy to censorship tools (which will be available to future extreme governments!) rather than fixing things properly.
So the UK government finally admits that age-sniffing is just an attempt to censor people. How evil.
People need to look at the UK government much more so than the US government in ADDITION. Everyone knows how the USA serves the superrich only these days, but the UK government is kind of polite on the outside, but pure evil on the inside.
The UK can’t block Dissent [1] since it looks like normal HTTPS traffic.
[1] https://godissent.com
> The site’s content happens to include an HTTP/2 endpoint that, when presented with an anonymous authorization token, behaves as a VPN server’s outer layer
Is this not the fingerprintable aspect? Wouldn't you need to randomise the HTTP endpoint to avoid eventually being banned based on URI?
Cool idea btw.
maybe the UK should instead look into protecting women and girls being systematically abused and raped while the police and government cover it up
Hopefully won't happen
Enclosure of XXI century
There is very little doubt that we need to find a way to update our relationship with social media. The evidence of their harm in current form is overwhelming.
However, using this reason to induce censorship rules, word by word matching Russia/China playbook is making the goal less achievable if anything.
Require all feeds to be chronological.
This is all about pushing Digital ID by the backdoor and building surveillance state for benefit of corporations pretending to be against it.
https://www.lighthousereports.com/investigation/blair-and-th...
https://institute.global/insights/politics-and-governance/di...
UK government has been talking about digital ID for a while now. The existing verification methods are too vulnerable to cheating (fake beards, fake ID, borrow dad's credit card, etc...), so the logical next step is direct government ID numbers. The goal is to link all online activity to a unique identifier to make it easier to punish dissent.
The UK has always been an authoritarian country masquerading as a democracy.
Safetyism is the actual biggest threat to free societies
Don't panic. These debates are nothing new. Encryption and obfuscation tech comes up every ten years or so. People scream and, in the end, nothing changes.
One upon a time, encryption math was regulated as a munition and the act of sharing open source software was tantamount to weapon smuggling. Once upon a time, VPNs were being banned by credit card companies. Part of the rise of bitcoin was the idea that you would need it for services like VPNs that credit card companies refused to service. Today, VPNs are openly advertised as piracy tools for getting around media geo-restrictions. Once upon a time, ISPs throttled torrents and so torrents become encrypted. Once upon a time DNS was to be poisoned in order to block filesharing websites (see COICA and PROTECT IP acts). All those efforts also came to nothing. These too will die.
Baffling how easy companies like Meta have it with politicians. Fuck them all, I'm leaving for the woods. It's been fun with tech but now it's just so painful,
Talk to you on meshtastic.
They have it easy, because law enforcement is too scared to act or is just as corrupt.
The article below sharply summarizes why all this is a dystopian surveillance setup:
> how, precisely, do you stop a fourteen-year-old from opening Instagram without first checking the age of the forty-year-old?
> You don’t. You can’t. So everyone gets carded. Britain is lifting the system wholesale from Australia, where a computer first scans your face and guesses your age from your cheekbones, then, failing that, surveils you to death, studies your browsing habits and the hours you keep, and then, when the algorithm throws up its hands, simply demands your passport.
https://reclaimthenet.org/starmers-social-media-ban-surveill...
> You don’t. You can’t. So everyone gets carded.
Exactly. A little at a time. First it's adult sites, because if you need to show ID to buy alcohol, shouldn't you need ID to buy pornography? Once that's accepted, expand the sphere of control to non-adult sites too by redefining everything as 16+.
Honestly, the UK already shot itself in the foot. Now they're shooting their other foot. And they keep voting for the Labor party...
And yet, govt will find it's impossible to regulate the creativity of software engineers.
Tories were in governance from 2010 - 2024. And things didn't exactly improve.
keep voting for the labour party?
this is the first time in more than a decade that its not tories in charge, and to get there, labour also had to become conservatives
> And they keep voting for the Labor party.
The alternatives are even more power-mad, fundamentally illiberal parties (Reform, Conservatives), equally pearl-clutching ones that will likely continue on the same road as Labour (greens) and unreliable figures that will flip-flop as soon as they are in power (libdems).
What's left? Count Binface, I guess.
Did you know Count Binface promises to build at least one affordable house?
Conservatives drafted the OSA in 2021.
Reform are against it https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/28/reform-uk-v...
Even the more extreme Restore are against it, and against Digital ID https://www.restorebritain.org.uk/restore_civil_liberties
The Greens are ... well they wanted to amend it in 2024 to include a ban on fake news, but that could turn into a mechanism for censorship.
And Lib/Lab/Con were all for building even more on top of it in 2024: https://www.handleygill.co.uk/handley-gill-blog/general-elec...
There are no 'liberal' parties in the UK.
Reform and Restore will say anything to get into power, and then they will turn into ultraconservatives. See also: council tax in pretty much all sizeable councils they got to control, which they promised to keep fixed and then raised immediately after getting in. Their instincts are traditional ultra-right.
And yeah, I agree that there is no natural home in UK politics for social liberism. Hence why quipping "they keep voting for this" is just pointless - there are no realistic alternatives, what we have at the moment is the least worst and it's still pretty bad.
FWIW you can age-gate VPNs the same way you can age-gate anything else that is paid for: just don't let people who haven't got credit cards (not debit cards) sign up.
Or you can simply let free plans only terminate inside their own country. I noticed recently that TunnelBear has done this with their free plans — the "fastest" endpoint, which is the only one that is free, is now a UK endpoint. It still meets the security need anyone might have from a VPN.
I am honestly not that bothered about adult content age gating in principle, and I never really have been. I personally think sexual content is not remotely immoral but that it's reasonable to say the very young shouldn't be able to see it. It's not a freedom of speech issue.
Given the practical impossibility of parental regulation of access to devices when cheap phones and PAYG exist, the problem is the practice of it: how do you do that in a way that is privacy-preserving?
I feel that Apple has coped with this pretty well: they decided I am an adult automatically based on how long I have held an account.
I also think the UK PAYG mobile providers handle this well: they have simply always blocked adult content until you unlock it. I haven't bothered and I have never seen the content wall (except when deliberately testing it) so I believe its boundaries are drawn quite well.
Though I do routinely use one site that might end up blocked over time because it sits right at the boundary of the law's interest. So one day I might need to, I guess. And I have considered what I might need to do about a website for my own photographic work, which sits on the edge of the ofcom rules interest in practice.
We are missing secure anonymous age attestation but I think that will come.
I do think American critics tend to interpret this in terms of the morality and religion battle-zone that riddles US culture and encourages US states to try to police morality in bizarre ways or to extend "porn" rules to things like information about sexuality, gender or sexual health (which would just not happen here because we're actually not really religious or prudes; there is essentially no religion in our politics, which is ironic considering the C of E have seats in the Lords).
I don't think American critics should really leap to judge UK rules when you have two dozen different states imposing rule sets that in some cases came first and in many are wholly unworkable.
UK concerns are about child access to extreme material and about sexual exploitation, fundamentally. It's not easy and it's clear some aspects of the legislation are difficult, but accepting criticism from Americans as if the US position is clear, unambiguous and robust is no longer something we should entertain, especially lessons about the morality of free speech from the US administration, given their apparent selective contempt for it.
So every adult citizen is forced to open a credit line?
You're straw-manning there. Every adult citizen isn't forced to have a VPN or view porn.
Most UK citizens do have a credit card anyway (though I in fact do not). It's more than three quarters.
It's not even the only way someone offering a service for what is after all a subscription product could achieve adult verification through existing banking-based mechanisms, because there are also bank mechanisms for making payments through a direct debit, which again you have to be an adult to do in the UK, and everyone can.
KYC processes also work though they are annoying and a VPN provider is inherently not going to want to do it.
But they are going to want to take money and there are these two mechanisms that come with adulthood verification attached.
Apple could do more on this with Wallet — they could let you pay with a virtual debit card that can only be in your wallet if you've passed their adult verification. Would need some card industry support. I am not sure why I can't just associate adulthood with my debit card; that would be a good fix.
isn't the simple answer an age-limit for VPN? /s
all this because they refuse to make the law just
"legal parent/guardian is responsible for the child"
if a parent faced fine or jail for a child having access to the internet you can be sure 90% of the children wouldn't have internet access
I'm no defender of the big social/media sites but I don't see why it's their fault/problem if a minor has internet access when they aren't supposed to
This all feels like the opposite goal of knowing everyone who is online everywhere
Because it's not how you'd make the law, you'd wouldn't go to service by service and make it their problem, you'd make it the adult responsible for the child's problem
what if instead of this age gate or whatever government is doing, what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
remove all "reasonable step" shield to hide behind. for example, a shopkeeper can't say they took "reasonable steps" if they sell alcohol to a child so why should a website be any different? if we are going to the absurdity of age-gating VPNs, at least lets make it so that there is an incentive for children to self-report
The end result will be the same. If you face a 10k liability for serving the wrong customer, you end up needing to ID your customers.
If the government isn't going to provide that service you end up with private companies verifying identity and the data security issues that entails.
If you want to shift the responsibility of protecting children away from parents, then you end up in a situation where third parties need to be able to differentiate between a child and an adult. I haven't yet seen a proposal that doesn't entail someone - government or private enterprise - getting access to identifiable information.
Of course, you could have something like a signed certificate, so the identity verifier doesn't see who you are patronizing, and the identity seeking business only gets to see your age, but it still has privacy issues.
> . I haven't yet seen a proposal that doesn't entail someone - government or private enterprise - getting access to identifiable information
California's Digital Age Assurance Act
That isn’t age verification. It’s an api for reporting unverified age data.
It’s basically parental controls standardized.
Yes. And that's the proposal that doesn't give anyone access to identifiable information. Well, in California it's not a proposal, it's the law.
It also doesn't give any actual age verification information. Verified age is not the same thing as self reported age.
If a kid can figure out how to click "yes, I am an adult" on a website, they can definitely figure out how to do the same thing when they turn on their phone the first time.
> you end up needing to ID your customers.
You've needed to do that for at least ten years. Mobile internet either requires a contract, or an ID check before you get a sim (pay and go)
Anyone providing internets is liable for what the users are doing. The way you got out of that is responding to legal requests. (originally mostly copyright)
This is the frustrating thing, we have effective and relatively uncontroversial age gated network (mobile data) already. and it worked.
but now they've done and fucked it up with OSA.
I don’t think that would have worked. Parents buy phones for their kids since the kids can’t buy them. What would the choices be? Give them a phone or not give them a phone. I don’t think society is ready for that kind of choice anymore.
Or give them an age-locked phone that tells the websites it belongs to a minor.
But its already the case now! As in if you buy an sim now, it comes with filtered internet by default. its been like that for years
You have to phone them up/log in and request the block to be removed.
I went to the uk with a foreign SIM. Didn’t have to show my id. I logged onto public WiFi networks without showing my id.
Plenty of ways to get it done.
> what if we simply said these big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
All of these proposals probably sound good to people who think the Venn diagram of sites they use and sites covered by these laws are two separate circles.
They probably sound a lot less good when you realize the law covers site like YouTube. The Australian law (which they said they’re modeling this after) also includes social news sites like Reddit.
If they passed a law like this extending to VPN services then you’d have to hand over your ID to use a VPN.
Usually people realize how bad these proposals are once they realize it might impact their internet use, too.
Or perhaps we should expect parents to take some responsibility for their kids' screen use?
Don't be daft. It's not the parent's responsibility to monitor and care for their kids.
Ok, can you explain what that looks like in practice or is it just some abstract feel-good words?
Sure! With my kids it's meant not buying them internet-enabled devices (or disabling the internet access, eg smart TVs), only having 1 family computer in a shared space, and managing my own local network. There also aren't screens in the house through the week.
On the flip side, I let them read whatever they want, including things that are upsetting or that other parents would say aren't appropriate, and I talk to them about what they've read.
Overall, I think these policies have meant more thoughtful media consumption, and more time outside and with friends. I'm not enough of a fool to think our rules are enforced at friends' houses, but we've chosen to live in a community that's largely on the same page.
None of this stuff is easy, but as a parent, it's the job.
“But I don’t want to be a responsible parent, I want to destroy the unrestricted internet.”
Just like we destroyed unrestricted tobacco stores
Nobody has a right to unrestricted tobacco stores.
Everybody has a right to free speech, and free speech frequently requires anonymous speech. This is why the protection of journalists' sources is so important, and why principled journalists are willing to go to jail to protect them.
You yearn for the end and couldn't care less about the means. But there are also those who couldn't care less about the end, but yearn for the means.
How can you distinguish between the two? And which do you think best describes the parties behind this global push to de-anonymize the Internet?
Why don't I have a right to unrestricted tobacco stores and gambling?
Pornography is a form of speech btw.
> Why don't I have a right to unrestricted tobacco stores and gambling?
Because--unlike free speech--those are not essential to freedom and democracy.
Care to answer my questions?
Yes yes, the internet is tobacco, TV rots your brain, the radio pushes devil music, and the printing press gives the peasants too many dangerous ideas. Shut it all down.
You expect the average parent to outwit Meta and TikTok and their teams of psychologists scheming to get their kids attention?
The social media companies could have done the socially responsible thing a decade ago and avoided all this.
I expect them to give a shit, yeah. Just like they should care about what they read or watch, or who they hang out with.
Don't let your kids have an internet-connected phone, or keep it locked down so they don't have parasitic apps preying on their pre-frontal immaturity until they're old enough to handle it.
All of this needs to be done intentionally, of course, or it will feel like the kids are being punished. But I can't emphasize this enough... it's our job as parents to raise our kids.
They do give a shit, and that's why all these social media age laws are being passed. Representatives are actually listening to their constituents.
Again, Meta and TikTok and their ilk could have avoided all of this by just being socially responsible organizations, instead of sociopathic.
How do you create new procurement pipeline and surveillance infrastructure from that?
Bingo
Because they will just withdraw from the jurisdiction rather than bother to implement that, most likely
> big companies need to self police and if a child can reach their service they have to pay the child like lets say GBP 10k per instance?
HIPAA has been super effective this way. As we all know, American companies don’t give two shits about user privacy or even security. But wave the HIPAA flag and everyone starts caring real hard and taking extremely cumbersome steps to comply with patient privacy.
Very simple: Each HIPAA violation comes with a financial penalty for the business and personal penalty for every person involved in the leak. Very effective.
I agree the threat is there but I've never seen anyone actually punished for HIPAA violations and my data have been involved in several hospital and insurance breaches.
There's not even a test for HIPAA compliance, so you can't legally prove you were ever compliant in the first place, other than you did what you thought was right. People love to use the term "HIPAA-compliant" but it's technically not a thing.
From my understanding, HIPAA mostly just says that you need to have policies in place for various things, such as rotating passwords or encrypting data, but it doesn't go into explicit detail about what all must be IN those policies, or how you enforce them.
> these big companies need to self police
It's not possible to prevent a person (of any age) from reaching a specific website if they are determined enough. Full stop.
> It's not possible to prevent a person (of any age) from reaching a specific website if they are determined enough. Full stop.
right, and that reveals the absurdity of this "age gate", doesn't it? because I am sure giving every UK national their very own unicorn would also poll very well but that doesn't mean that's what a functional democracy should be prioritizing just because a majority of the public supports because doing so is not possible
That's because it's not about age gating, it's about identifying the internet users.
Is there any evidence of this? I hear it time and again with very little justification.
So if anyone who is a part of the establishment that protects known abusers and openly tolerated companies known, by their own admission, for hurting children, start saying "think of the children!" and "we're protecting the children", look at their hands because they're trying to swindle you.
Start from these two:
- https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/12/10-not-so-hidden-dange...
- https://mullvad.net/en/and-then/uk
And remember that once these systems are introduced it will be very hard to get rid of them, and very easy to get them expanded to gate (identify users of) the more "radical" content, like environmental protests, opposing the genocide, perhaps opposing the monarchy...
If the establishment allows the companies, unpunished, to knowingly push teens into ED or suicide and at the same time says they "do something", you really shouldn't take it at the face value.
If you still honestly believe the reason for this is "protecting the children" (remember the next steps, mandatory, uninstallable surveillance on phones and IDing of all VPN users are in motion already), you can't be saved :(
It’s not possible to prevent these same children from getting alcohol or drugs either but we certainly don’t permit it.
yes and we do fine companies that sell alcohol and drugs to children.
lets give everyone an incentive to report companies that allow or encourage children to use these websites. the children, the parents, bystanders, the employees and contractors of these websites, everyone should get paid from the fines these social media companies would need to pay out for every infraction. I think GBP 10k per incidence is actually pretty cheap considering the alternative is life in prison for the CEO and the board starting with cash incentives all the way to prison terms for the CEO and the board
Fwiw they acknowledge this and claim the goal of this regulation is to drastically increase friction, not render it impossible